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How Much Respect Do You Get?
droidlev asks: "In our continually fluctuating economy I have seen a drastic change in the level of respect that I receive. As a technician I've grown accustomed to a heightened level of respect when I walk into a client's office. Not to say that I have a God complex, however, it feels good to walk into a room and be appreciated. I'm passionate for the computer work that I do; I'm 'GEEK' for it. People know that I'm there to help and solve their problems. There is good amount of value in this extra level of appreciation and respect. This is especially true when you are developing business relationships (and of course it never hurts to be liked). In recent times, however, I've been cast in a different light; actually more like a darkened shadow. I am now seen as a necessary evil instead of the 'all powerful technician.' So I ask what your experiences have been, either as a computer technician or another professional? Have you seen a change in the level of respect that you receive?"
"Businesses are trying to save every penny they have. Unless something significant goes wrong, they handle a situation themselves. This only compounds the severity of a problem. By the time I get there, everything has gone to hell and I get a look (the it's-all-your-fault look) from every cubicle and every office. In the past, exceptionally dedicated service translated to loyal clients that didn't mind paying a little bit more. Once I was the problem solver, now it seems I am yet another flame to burn their money."
I found I get more respect when I loudly shout "frist psot" as soon as I enter the room
Granted there are ups and downs in the industry at large and variations from employer to employer, but by far the most significant factor in determining the level of respect people show you at work is your own conduct. If you've noticed that the people at work suddenly seem to respect you less, IMO the first place you need to look is at your own conduct. Are you really working and behaving in a way that earns and demands respect? Overall, this shakes out into two basic keys:
1. Earn respect. Know your stuff, be willing to help people out and be someone that people can stand. Own your responsibilities. At the same time, don't try to be an expert in matters you don't really understand and don't try to force your big nose into other peoples' work. Be that guy that people want to work with and want on their team. It's perpetually amazing to me that such a high percentage of people in the professional world (not just geeks) fall down on one or more of these three and then act shocked when people hate dealing with them because they're either incompetent or impossible to work with (which amounts to more or less the same thing).
2. Demand respect. There are always going to be people who try to make you do something or bypass you or whatever by running over or around you. Don't stand for this -- be professional, be polite and (if it's someone up the foodchain from you) remember your place, but leave it crystal clear that in matters where you hold responsibility, you will not be cut out and you will not be strongarmed. This is an attitude, and it's not "respect mah authoritah!" attitude that I see a lot from geeks.
Competence and confidence are the keys to garnering and maintaining the respect of your coworkers. Really, they're the keys to success at life in general.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
... is something you earn. If people are treating you like a dirtbag then work on improving your image.
Trolling is a art,
We lived threw a change in the way that IT is viewed. It changed rather quickly too. Back in the late 90s early 2000 IT and Techs were seen as the bringer of new and terrific stuff that is supposed to make their life better. Now that most everyone has got all this stuff that supposed to make there lives better they found out it only allowed them to do more and harder (So except spending a day typing out the pay role, you are now Printing the payroll and managing benefits.) work for the same pay. So you are no longer the guy who will bring a company tons of money threw web sales, but the guy who needs to make sure the now built website doesn't crash, and if it did then there is lost money. So you are now considered an expense, or as best a long term expense to lower TCO. We are no longer money makers. That is why some "Programmers" with High school degrees who said they knew HTML got these 100k a year jobs, making crappy web pages because these web pages were to make the company money so they saw these web developers as technical marketing department. But now after the infrastructure is set up and they realized they didn't need Joe Smo "HTML is Frontpage right?" we became an expense. It is not that we personally lost the respect of people. But we are no longer looked upon as money makers. But more like a power bill, or a maintenance crew.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I can't say I get a lot of respect for being a Computer Ace. It certainly hasn't gotten me any dates recently. On the other hand family, friends, distant friends, ex-bosses, neighbors and friends of neighbors have no qualms about assuming I'm their free I.T. service. Respect? I don' t know. Co-dependence? Yeesh!
Murray Todd Williams
I don't need respect, just obedience.
And no backtalk.
The best thing a technical person can do for their employer, and hence for themselves both in terms of respect and gratitude and monetary compensation, is to do extra things that add value to the bottom line.
For instance, if you're not involved in the analysis and design phase of software, maybe watch the market more closely so as to know what suggestions to make in terms of features and design. If you're not a programmer, then look into ways to add value by improving the company website; maybe freshen up some content, add an RSS feed, or look for ways to improve the aesthetics and page copy of a conversion page (such as a point of purchase page, for example). Look for ways to improve conversions from affiliate lead sources.
I know how easy it is to go "down the rabbit hole" when writing code. You get lost in the code. You dream about it; it's the only thing you think about. And it pretty much has to be that way. I try and periodically take some time off from writing code for short intervals specifically to come up for air, so to speak.
But most significantly, realize that everyone arrives at work precisely to add value to the company's bottom line. Everyone arrives at work in order to solve the problems to which they are assigned. There is certainly nothing unique about IT in that manner.
However, if you're truly being treated like a pariah, I would ask, who is responsible for "casting" you in such a unfavorable light? It could be office politics. And of course, there's always the chance that you're too much like the IT guy in those Jimmy Fallon SNL sketches.
I Want To Believe
When I was a baby, my bathtub toys were a radio and a toaster.
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
BOFHs are to be feared, not respected...
When I show people my custom code running on the nintendo DS, my respect++;
Indeed. My boss recently changed my job title from "sunlight-deprived cubicle monkey" to "socially-inept code generator". No more will I be classified alongside those QA apes!
Do you believe in reincarnation?
Is this Rodney Dangerfield reincarnated as "The IT Guy"?
To want "respect" means that you would like some other unspecified group to have _less_ "respect," at least compared to you.
Maybe it would be better just to do good, professional work that can itself withstand such comparison rather than seek the "I am better than the run-of-the mill-worker" kind of "respect."
Back in the day we called it egoless programming. It means to feel good about the whole team being productive. Groups like this share code, mentor each other constantly, prevent anyone from failing, and are fun to be around. Groups that worship individual "respect" get prima donnas, backstabbing and less overall productivity.
Let your good work speak for itself. If you need more respect, learn something additional about your craft and feel good about it yourself.
How much do respect do you get OUTSIDE the office?
The sad thing is, you can save the day, but in the end, you're still a 'computer geek'
When the IT staff starts nailing hot secretaries and interns, instead of goldchain wearing middle managers, you'll impress us.
In the current economy, people are indeed cost sensitive, and vendor advice to solve issues usually adds up to higher cost, even if the advice isn't to buy more, but to say change a tunable parameter. Change has to be tested.
Seriously, people don't like other people who smell.
=^)
The Doormat
If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
"I don't get no respect."
I've been developing/maintaining a web tool for 3 years, and I was generally regarded as a also-run in the company.
However, since just last month, this tool has become the most contract-winning tool for my company, apparently every client wants it before giving us the business.
And now everybody in the company greets me on first name basis and the company's open to negotiation.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
Really, the aura of godliness geeks had has been gone for years.
We're not really all that special, we never were.
It's just a job, man.
--
the strongest word is still the word "free"
The more that people insist on doing stupid things to their machines, the less respect I get.
I support about 50 PCs, and when they're freshly set up I make sure to tell the workers who use them NOT to use IE. Ever. I make sure they know. I remind them of safe email practices. I ensure they KNOW what stupid things not to do.
Time and again they'll go all out of their way to install something on their machines, they'll find IE and start using it again, they'll email crud to themselves from home, or put it up online for download if they can't get past our email filters. "Yes I know you told me not to ever do this, but I thought it wouldn't hurt if I did"
And their machines end up infected again and again and again.
All my fault, apparently
Whats this "Respect" thing that you speak of ?
I'm as valuable as the "1 year of service" award they're going to give me in a few weeks.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
As an engineer, my family thinks I should know everything about computers and how to make them work. But I certainly know that just because I can design the hardware that goes into it, that doesn't mean I know how the first thing about how to make Windoze, or even Linux, do what I want it to. I'm smart enough to figure out pretty much anything I need, but it's so much easier to grab a technician friend and let him fix in 5 minutes what would take me hours....
How do you feel when you have to call a plumber in to your home, knowing that every hour they sit there scratching their ass will cost you $125? Like most people you probably dread it, and you try to DIY as much as possible. You probably even try to maintain your manlihood by trying to demonstrate to him what you know once he comes.
People don't like depending upon other people, and the sad reality, and it's amazing how few techs realized this, was that people were patronizing you in the past when they'd fawn over you. That wasn't that they respected you, but rather that they thought that they could get as much out of you as possible by pushing your ego buttons.
I caught onto that very early in my career, and no longer did coworkers and family talking about how I'm the smartest person they've ever met and boy do I know computers, ad nauseum, fool me into providing pro bono work.
I found that the respect i get is a function of personal relationships with those individuals and not really a function of what i did. People who arent technical tend not to look at our craft as fondly as we tend to do, they dont see the things that we see in it, and therefore it often doesnt hold the same appeal or respect. Those who do show that respect often respect you as a person or have an affinity for technology and can appreciate what you do more than the norm. Either way, even if you sweep the floor, and you do it to the best of your ability and treat those around you with respect, youll tend to get it in return. And ask yourself, if you expect them to be in awe of you just for walking in the room, how much do you really respect them?
I was crazy back when being crazy really meant something. (Charles Manson)
On the other hand, people that work for companies that are looked upon as "evil" empires, i.e. M$, IBM global services, etc, usually get little respect from the people they attempt to help even if they are good technical consultants (I see this all the time at client sites). Their companies image really casts a dark shadow on how they are treated. My 0.2c....
That un-impeachable belief that end-users have that technicians are somehow supernatural in their abilities becomes a real liability when things go wrong. After years of working for end users and trying to educate them past their beliefs that the work I did was somehow voodoo or magical, I got a job working for a large company with a well-established IT group and I'm no longer responsible for end-user requests. My bosses and peers are all technical and if something goes wrong, its easy to explain why and deal with the problem. Believe me, the grass IS greener on this side.
There was a period of time when geeks were in terribly short supply, and they were over appreciated. Now it is more like it was in the early-mid 90's and before.
:)
Having said that, I noticed that dice has 69000+ jobs on offer now, down from 120k at the peak, and up from 23k at the trough.
If it goes over 80k, I would say that the god daz are coming back.
Maybe I'll ask for a raise
Around my university, the respect we have for the techs is proportional to their ability and knowledge base, which is pretty slim for a lot (but not all) of them. A lot of them seem to think that their job is to install Windows-based software for people. Hiding in the depths of IT, however, I have encountered some very talented hardware folks.
Zero
There's no Freedom like UFP-dom
Posted by Cliff on Fri April 01, 0:01 (EET, aka UTC + 3 (DST))
Um, this "getting respect" thing must be the first of April fool jokes today?
“Wait for Hurd if you want something real” –Linus
I've found that at my current job I seem to get more respect as time goes on. Part of that reason would be that I admit what I don't know, I treat my coworkers the way I hope to be treated, and I take care of any problems as well as my deliverables in a fast, efficient manner.
One of the other comments - 'A BOFH should be feared, not respected' - is perhaps, true, but unless you're in an extraordinarily IT-centric organization, that kind of attitude is much more likely to hurt rather than help.
-- Wow. Another comment by SeanMike. All comments are not endorsed by IDI.
bullcrap. All you end up doing is getting your employer to get used to you working 80 hour weeks, then they ultimately expect it all the time.
Today, technicians are a dime a dozen, and it shows. With so many wannabe "technicians" flooding the market, it is only natural for people to base their opinion on what they see: A whole bunch of incompetent boobs claiming to be experts when they are nothing more than hobbiests with a screwdriver and a shit attitude.
Further to that, geek is now chic. This means there are many posers who are diluting the true meaning of the word, because they want to look hip and trendy.
Its sad, really. We are a victim of our own desires, to be accepted by society as a whole instead of relegated to the computer and AV rooms of the world.....
Feed the need: Digitaladdiction.net
...then you're not asking enough money. People despise plumbers, but they probably make more than most computer technicians.
Nobody likes to call the plumber, electrician, etc... Nobody likes to call in a tech for most of the same reasons, although I do try to keep my buttcrack from showing.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
How respect do you give the guy who fixes your washing machine?
Computers are being viewed more and more as another applicance. A means to get things done. Not some mysterious and all-powerful machine. As this perception becomes more widespread, the respect given to people who repair them will approach that of people who fix other appliances.
The are no more Priests of the Temples of Syrinx (obscure Rush reference).
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
echo "\$0.75/hr" > /data/payroll/managment/IT/bob/payrate
I've noticed one big difference. When a geek asks me what I do, I've been able to give the same answer since 1998: "I work full time for a company maintaining their sites with ASP and SQL Server." Here's a chronology of the responses:
.NET these days. Besides, you'll be laid off in a week just like me. And Oracle's the bomb, it's worth every penny."
1998: "What's ASP?"
1999: "ASP sucks, man. It's too hard."
2000: "Wow, can I learn ASP? How hard is it? Because I've never done computer work, but I hear it makes a lot of money."
2001: "Ha! ASP? You suck, that's so old-school. You won't have a job in a couple of years. I got a job at Pets.com making twice your salary, and I'm just a receptionist."
2002: "ASP sucks, man. It's all about
2003: "ASP sucks, man. It's all about PHP these days. And MySQL's the bomb. It'll have stored procedures any day now." (Sorry, just had to throw that one in.)
2004: "ASP sucks, man. It's all about J2EE these days."
2005: "Wow, you have a full time job? Because I'm a programmer and I can't find a job to save my ass."
What's your damage, Heather?
I walked in this morning and my boss said "You'll find my nuts require extra attention today."
Just yesterday I was told by a General Manager in Boston that he had changed his mind about hiring a full time Chief Engineer. He claimed he doesn't NEED one, even though both stations he manages are about to move their transmitter sites, his new studios sit half built, and his AM station (stereo) has been broadcasting with right channel only for the past six months!
Pretty WILD, huh? *wink*I think it's because tech. industries have been taken over by beancounters and sales types. who see selling tech. products the same as selling timeshares and real estate. The tend to ignore what they don't understand. I call it the ostrich theory.
I work the job for a paycheck, but you'll respect me when you see my mad skillz in counter strike.
Seriously, it's a job. If a job is that big of an issue to your selfworth maybe you need to seek help. If you're well balanced person and your job is so degrading it's effecting your selfworth then you need a new job. Granted we all want to do better and be better people but if your working a decent job and trying to advance yourself it shouldn't be an issue.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
Computers had a brief glory period where you could set them up and let them work. Now, the average user is going to see their computer get abused like it's in a prison shower. They hate it, and they hate the fact that you can't make it stop for them without significant trade offs. Now, you are just a guy that can solve some of their problems instead of the guy who can make anything happen.
If the people I repair PC's for don't give me respect, I've got the capability to walk away. Treat me like a human being, and I'll fix things. Treat me like a piece of shit and you can find someone else to slag. It's a philosophy that works well in the rest of life.... Tom
I don't think respect is really an issue, especially for paid consultants in a business environment. If you are a professional who fixes problems, no one is going to address you as "Hey, dumbass".
Even if you are a prick, most people will just grind their teeth about it rather than confront you. But it's unlikely that you'll be called back.
-R
Hrm...
.02.
:) ) I think too often IT people just focus on making the problem go away, you have to have a wider focus. .02
I'd say at my current place of employment (fairly small office, 200 employees, 4 branches) that I feel as though I have a lot of respect from those people that I support.
Certainly there is the air of mystery associated with that 'guy who just fixes stuff' and they don't have a clue how...I am a magician to them. However, they respect me not only for me enabling them to do their job more efficiently, but also for my friendly manner, my willingness to help out with even the most bizarre, difficult, or incredibly easy task, and my willingness to listen.
I feel as though easily half of my job is just making people feel better about the problems that they run into on a daily basis, and that their issues are important to me to fix, and that I understand their work and how the technology enables them to work. I wouldn't say that you aren't these things, (original poster) but perhaps someone in the position before you got there was a jerk, and so they look down on you because of that. Supporting customers in technology takes more than savvy and know how, you don't get respect, you earn it. Just my
Not to pat myself on the back, but I recently recieved an award at my company (woo gift card time) for "Making changes happen", "Going the extra mile", having a "positive attitude",being "passionate", "delivering on promises" etc (quotes from the silly paper thing i got
You can pick your nodes, and you can pick your friends, but you can't pick your friend's nodes
Is it just me, or are there a remarkable number of low slashdot user ids commenting in this article? Kind of coincidental with the topic, eh?
In the "Olden Days" of IT, an IT "Geek" had all the keys to the kingdom and was seen as a technology doctor. Nowadays, an IT "Geek" still has all the keys to the kingdom, but its viewed in more of a "janitorial" capacity. "Wow, big keyring Bob!" Old days: "Thank God, our "Geek" is here to save us. Have a brownie!" Now: "Yo, geek-boy, do something about the nasty hair clog in the router. And I want that web interface to sparkle!" I think it's partially due to computing becoming more mainstream. No one sees it as "magic" anymore... *SIGH*
"Nature bats last..."
I agree with the respect level but I don't think it's towards the person doing the fixing or helping out. It's two fold. First, the very negative light Microsoft is always being put in kinds of makes some people negative using their products. Then, there is the fact that stuff breaks all the time and you get tired of seeing the same face come fix it. You are tired of seeing that face cause it means your stuff is broke again.
Evolution or ID?
I'm sure it's nothing personal, and I'm sure you're not imagining it.
I think that the days are gone when people looked at a computer and thought "Wow! What an amazingly wonderful piece of equipment! It's so complicated -- no wonder it goes wrong so often! Good job we have that wonderful tech guy coming to fix it!".
Now, I think it's more like: "WTF?! Damn expensive piece of junk just crashed again! There goes another few hundred $$$'s calling out the tech guy!"
My point is, people understand computers more now -- a lot of the mystery is gone. So when one goes wrong it's seen as a huge irritation and an inconvenience, not to mention a costly bill.
Computers / Automobiles: the token comparison.
Now, with that said, do you give your auto mechanic any respect? Personally I'm always watching to make sure they don't try and scam me. My guess is, most people feel the same way about IT guys.
That can be true.
However, my point is simply this: if you as a programmer do nothing but code up spec, well there's not very much value in that any more, in terms of what the market will bear. Mind you, I believe strongly in supporting American IT workers myself, but that means squat. I'm seeing so much work go to Russia and other former USSR hotspots, it's just insane.
I Want To Believe
Sudden lack of respect you say? Have you been forgetting to shower lately?
On a more serious note, it sounds like some of the companies you support are cheap and maybe not willing to pay up to really fix things. Whether it's from the company being stingy or incompetence, I can't really say but if you continuously show up to fix things when they break, people may start to get the impression that you're not completely fixing their problems.
That business is afraid of technology is axiomatic. Most businesses loathe their IT departments. I've said this before, but the executives cringe every time their CIO says, "We have a problem." They grind their teeth as they sign off on the IT budget; as far as they're concerned, every cent of that is wasted. Business chugged along JUST FINE for 100 years before 1995 and now suddenly we have to dump millions every year into a department full of unwashed slobs who can't be taught to cut their hair or wear pants. For awhile, these types of people were making millions off computers and technology, and they didn't mind so much having that IT department. "I don't know what they do, but I bought Yahoo at $25/share and sold it a day later at $125. It MUST be good to have computer guys." Then it all ended, and they LOST millions, and now your IT people are once more a burden that the company carries, with its executives half convinced that IT is the nuclear missile of business - we don't REALLY have a legitimate use or need for it, but we have to have it because all the other big players have it, too. They don't even appreciate that you fix their computers because mostly don't want computers in the first place. They don't understand them. And you'll know when you bump into a member of that generation that does see the value. Anyway, I'm rambling here but if you're not getting "respect" at your job then you know what your options are. Change companies, change jobs, change expectations, change attitude, change something. But notice that I'm telling you to change, not them. You can't control what they do, you can only control your own decisions.
"I have never won a debate with an ignorant person." -Ali ibn Abi Talib
After the fall-out affects of the dot-bomb era, I think the perception of us techies has truly changed, and not in a very positive way. What most people (and I mean the 70% who don't follow what's going on around them) fail to realize, is that the dot-bomb era was a cause of mis-management, bad ideas, and far too many people with the idea that if they "learned" computers, they would become the next Bill Gates. The paradigm shifted around 2001 from "Wow, you know how to program" to "Yeah, you programmers are a dime a dozen, be happy I gave YOU a job". I don't see the current perception changing for at least 2 years either. Anyway, food for thought...
http://www.accelerateglobalwarming.com
Clearly not enough.
What, you wanted me to actually quantify it?
Some people do, some people don't. Some people pretend to, but don't; some people pretend not to, but do.
I was watching a movie where the protagonist needs a bunch of data and gets 'access denied'. I loudly declared that was a huge reason to get on the good side of your sysadmin.
July 29th, 2005 - www.sysadminday.com.
None of my users observed it last year - if you want a quantification.
Have you seen a change in the level of respect that you receive?
No, people laugh at me just as much as when I was a geek with no friends in high school.
dude dont flatter your self TOO much :)
Life is like a bag of chips you never know whats next
Speel
Having to deal with techies and reality is an annoyance for managerial types. What seems more important is the power play on the corporate ladder.
To be part of the "in crowd" means playing the game. Brown nose, buzzwords and running a general line of bullshit. As a techie not interested in the corporate power chain, but rather in shipping good product and making a real profit, I find it hard to get a reasonable audience. Sure they'll usher me in the back door to fix a multi-million dollar problem then out the back door again when the job is done, but they won't listen as to how the problems can be fixed.... mostly because they're often process or political problems, and rule number one of the corporate power game is "don't step out of line".
Engineering is the art of compromise.
IT has changed from implementation to maintenence from the 90s to 2005. Not to be offensive, but when you're maintaining a system or installing updates, or making the network run smoothly, you're nothing more than a lowly technician, someone who has mastered a trade. Rather than bringing forth the unknown as technicians did in the 90s, they are just doing something that someone else doesn't want to spend time doing. When technology was new, there was a mystique in understanding how these computers run. But that mystique is long-gone. Just as in the early days of electricity, it seemed so new to commonfolk, and electricians were seen as magicians for knowing how it worked and how it can be fixed.
If you want more respect for what you do, do something beyond maintaining systems or technician work. Do something that requires intelligence to design the systems. Mystique fades quickly once everyone gets used to the technology and you're not the one propelling it forward.
I am defenseless. Use your button. Mod me down with all of your hatred.
I learned an important lession when I was providing 24x7 support for a network management center.
At my boss's advice, I visited the end customers each and every workday.
They began to associate me with the system while it was working. In contrast, some admins only showed up when their systems were broken. They were usually greeted with "Here comes trouble!"
My relationship was so good that, when the system broke in the middle of the night, the customers would do their best to get by until morning, even though I assured them that it was my duty to restore it during the night.
Being around to take credit for things running smoothly is indispensible.
Before dot bomb we all made tons of cash. We were affluent. We were special. Large numbers of people entered the field. Lots of 6 week courses to make you an instant object oriented programmer.
After dot bomb our salaries plummeted. Large companies figure out ways to make us irrelevant through outsourcing. Our peers undercut and underbid us because any work is better than no work. And if you were an employee, you got shuffled into the consultant column to join the growing number of disposable workers. Consultants are an expense after all to whom you do not owe benefits and the like, unlike an employee that is a liability.
Welcome to being a commodity. We are all interchangeable. My computer science degree is worth as much as a 6 week programming course through DeVry. And my exceptional architecture and design skills are worth less than someone that managed to hide away in a big corporation the last 15 years.
/\/\icro/\/\uncher
..the level of respect you get. I'm a "techie turned manager," and I can tell you for certain that when I was exclusively a "techie," I was a "genius" and "guru" and people loved me. Today, I'm a manager, and though lots of people still love me, they're also aware that I can affect the amount of pain or pleasure they experience from our IT services. It's a lot more responsibility, which comes with its own share of politics. People know this.
;)
Anybody who manages geeks would be wise to keep that "geeks are our friends" culture going. It's never MY success, even if I was the one whose plan is being implemented, I chose the solutions, got the funding for it, etc. As far as our users are concerned, we just have a really great staff who always looks out for them, even if their manager is a jerk
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
You work on computers, you must be really, really smart.
Cut to 80's. You work on computers? Can you put 640k of RAM in my PC?
Cut to 90's. You work on computers? Can you fix my sound card?
Cut to 00's. You work on computers? I think my machine has a virus, could you look at it?
Worse than Rodney Dangerfield...
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
I have a wife and two chilren. I get no respect. I get walked all over. My wife stays at home. She works hard at what she does. But obviously doesn't respect me or what I do because the moment I get home from the office. I have to take over her job.... So her hours are 8-5 while mine are 7-7...
I feel like Rodney Dangerfield.
Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle, and quick to anger.
You'd probably get more respect if you proofread your writing.
"We lived THROUGH"
"or AT best"
Perhaps you have reached a new plateau in your career, it is a normal progression. When you are a young tech, the customer is happy that you can actually fix something and they give you praise for the work that you do. When you become a seasoned tech, the customer expects more from you and unfortunately, in many cases only let you know when you don't live up to the customers expectations. They just take for granted that you can do a great job.
As you pointed out with the dotbombbust, companies put alot of time, money and effort into their IT/IS infrastructures, and lets face it: Are they paying off the huge ROI dividends as speculated in the begining. NO, not for 9 out of 10 they sure aren't. Instead companies have come to realize that (as you pointed out) people like you, and the technology you offer is a necessary evil. By installing Application X or Hardware Y, the projected ROI over 20 years was Z, however, they didn't forsee needing technicians a b and c to get there as well as crashes and worms and such m - t. Overall, technology DOES help companies, but I think they have come to see it as a 'necessary evil' because it really it, and not because of you personally. Just understanding your clients view of this might help you in not internalizing these sorts of issues.
Thats all.
The 1980s through to today have been a spectacular time for American business. The stock markets have grown like never before. Business people, managers, and financial folk have been praised for being the backbone of a growing economy.
But there's a sad truth, evident to anyone who has dipped into that world... and that is, except for their brown-nosing skills and personal connections, business people, management, financial/accountants are mostly useless. It's questionable whether they have any real skills. And now society is starting to question whether these people have any value in the real sense of the word.
The modern satires (e.g. Dilbert) exist for a reason. It baffles people how the "flapping heads" or "PHBs" can be the ones in control, earnings the high salaries. You see, in the past few decades everyone wanted to become managers. And my personal belief is that the business world is starting to crumble because companies overweight in managers and associated staff lack tangible manpower, the power to get real business done.
So you technicians, engineers, and other professionals who can actually do real things... never you worry. Ultimately, you are the ones who have the skills to accomplish what society needs. The market of yesterday - for idiot managers, corrupt accountants - is coming to an end (though it may take some time).
I work in IT infrastructure for an Investment Bank and I get no respect at all - in fact I'm treated like dirt and considered expendable. Each day that I'm still employed and not outsourced is a bonus. I spend each day wanting out but knowing I would find it difficult to get another job. I never thought I'd end up in this situation....
They can put me in all the shadows they want.
I'm a developer, and I'm comfortable with my salary and benefits. I don't want attention or clout or respect. I'm happy to be relatively anonymous, come in and work hard, and leave quietly at the end of the day.
...until the system you wrote starts to fail.
I measure respect in dollars. And I don't derive my self-worth from my occupation. having said that, though, it IS nice for people to listen when I am trying to explain something to them. credibility is king!
I used to work in an environment where two or three competing contractors had to "work together". I don't think one line of my code hasn't been replaced already, because of the other company's hard core NIH syndrome. Even if my company did good work, we got no credit, because the other company's manager's face was embedded in the project lead's ass.
No, no bitterness here
I have seen it in one work place... There were these bunch of guys that would behave very rudely and often refuse to even say Hi to coworkers. These rude guys were in biz-dev and some alpha-male techies. Initially, people thought these guys were some bigshots. Later on, they realized that it is mainly posturing.
I am not saying that it is always the case. I belive it is a rare case where multiple a*holes ended up in a small group. But, the lesson to be taken is sometimes things are not what they seem.
S
I'm currently the lead developer at a company. I'm in charge of all the projects. I spend a few of minutes each day, seeing what it is people spend all of their time doing. On a number of occasions, I find people doing some meinal task, that a shell script could do just fine. Or, if the task is a little more complicated than that, I ask them how much they spend doing that. In a few of those cases, they spend a couple hours a day working on something that could be automated with a program that would take me a couple of hours to write (given the existing tools I've access to). So I write it for them, and save them tonz of time. Because I do this, A couple of my programs have been labeled names like "MagicWand" by the employees. People think of me rather highly in the office.
On what role on my playing. I do a good bit of side work, mostly for private practice lawyers, real estate agents, and accountants. Usually small offices that can't afford to hire a full time IT person. Unless it's a reference from a friend, I'm usually viewed with skepticism when I first walk on the job. About an hour later when I'm tweaking machines, cleaing off virii and spyware and managing to not get in anybody's way, they appreciate the fact that I'm really good at what I do. They listen to my suggestions and act on them. I have several deals where I'm on retainer to drop by once a month to do checkups, and get a base payment whether I do any work or not. If I have to actually do some serious work, I get my retainer and charge them a reduced hourly fee (it's usually much cheaper than paying my hourly fee if I have to put in some serious time) Now, in the case of one real estate office, it's fairly big. And I run the network. Now most problems I can just RDP in and fix from wherever I'm at. But god help the poor sods if I have to go into the office, because I'm in pure BOFH mode. The owners love me to death because I keep them running so they can exploit people for money. The users hate me because I have that network locked down so tight that they don't get to have any fun when they should be working. So all in all, I'm not worshipped as the god I once was, but I never wanted that. All I want is for the boxes to run smoothly and my money. I do good work, and my clients trust me, and they respect me as a professional within my field, just as I respect them as a professional within theirs.
Respect is an odd currency. Those who understand absolutely nothing of what I do, and should give me respect when they enter my territory, offer the least.
In general, respect has declined during the past years, even though my abilities and credentials inside my profession have increased.
There are also different kinds of respect. I have learnt to not give much on statements of respect. My boss tells me five times daily that I'm the most knowledgable security dude in the company - but my advise on security matters is apparently not important enough to warrant action.
Two former bosses had the proper method for expressing respect towards techies: Not only did they say "you guys know best how to do this, just get it done", they also followed through with it and got out of our ways. One was the CTO, the other was brilliant in keeping other trouble (higher-ups, users, other bosses) away from us while we worked on the problem.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
I want a frikkin' raise!
IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV
Jesus, we fix computers. We don't perform brain surgery.
I'm in the process of overseeing the work done by an outside tech support company for a nonprofit. Background: I'm a programmer. Mainly Java. Previously, internal , non-technical people were often the overseers and project sponsors for this group. The result is that 4 companies have been used in the past 5 years, with each one chased out due to corruption, incompetence, and regime changes. They recently hired a new company and asked me to be the liason.
I remember the first meeting. The owner walzted in smiling and shaking hands. He recommended a lot of Win2003 upgrades that had nothing to do with pressing needs. I, on the other hand, played hardball. I wore a suit, accused him of being more of a salesman than a techie, and said we needed a company much less myopic. He was completely shocked and his attitude has turned around 180 degrees.
I still have to work with them, but I call bullshit on them frequently, I grill them on what they're doing and why, I refuse to pay the full amount when they make bad decisions, I demand thorough documentation.
Respect them? Fuck no. I'm a watchdog.
The point is that this company, like many others, have gotten burned in the past and are much wiser on how money is spent. They've learned that the tech's word is not final and there will be no blank checks.
Further, don't forget that ITT and Heald churn out thousands of people that can do your job.
But the tides have changed now that I install Firefox for them. They use IE for accessing our many internal IE-only web apps, and they use Firefox for browsing the Internet. And I'm now the hero again. If I could replace their PCs with Macs they'd be even happier but I work for one of the largest companies in the world and they're in very tight with Microsoft.
The meme police, They live inside of my head
I am fairly confident that I am respected at my workplace but that doesn't neccessarily translate into being well liked or appreciated. More often it translates into promotions, pay rises and more responsibility.
My boss likes me a lot, but he isn't going to tell me that very often (if ever). But when he gives me more money/responsbility/input I know its there.
Are you Bill Gates?
I, unlike the submitter, haven't seen any decrease in the level of respect I get for my computer and programming skills.
It's pretty stable at 0...
Being a senior in high school and developing the title "Computer boy" or something to that effect has opened me up to the myriad of retarded questions. Some people call me over to show them how to use google. The position doesn't get any respect just more questions like "How did you learn all of this?" It's obligatory praise. It also burns me because I can do a lot more than make a printer work or find someone's files on the server. There are people who actually do stuff worth praise with computers and I get extolled for knowing how to properly navigate through windows. Arg.
You're accurate about genuine respect.
There is however displayed respect. That special kind that gets displayed whether you're actually deserving of it or not.
This is the kind that gets displayed to an utterly incompetent CEO (to his face at least) because, well, he signs the checks and, whether you respect him or not, if you piss him off, you're screwed.
During the dotcom boom, most IT people got the displayed kind automatically. I remember being outright told, "You don't need to worry about HR and viewing unsafe sites. In the current economy, we can't replace you. You piss them off, they recommend you're fired, we refuse to do so because we can't lose you. End of story."
If a client pissed you off and you quit - or refused to work for them - it was [perceived as] way too hard to get someone else in. Thus they sucked up and displayed respect whether they felt like it or not.
It's a logical OR statement:
Genuine and Displayed: Respect is shown.
Genuine only: Respect is shown.
Displayed only: Respect is shown.
Neither: You're screwed.
What sucks for many in the IT field is that they were never really deserving of genuine respect, they just got the displayed kind because IT salaries were so nuts. Now the boom has burst and starving developers are [perceived as] a dime a dozen, they no longer qualify for the displayed kind. Thus, if you were genuinely deserving of respect, you continue to gain be shown it. If you were only ever getting the displayed kind - well, you don't merit it anymore.
Of course there's one other aspect to it. Scott Adams calls it the way of the weasel. Genuine respect still requires genuine people. In the typical workplace, many people will show respect if you genuinely deserve it - but there are still plenty of cretins who will screw anyone over, deserving or not, if it suits them. For them, whether you warrant genuine respect or not, they'll only ever show it to you if you warrant the displayed kind as, otherwise, you're not helping them directly and they can, therefore will, screw you.
Seriously, a (support) technician is like the plumber. He's only called when something is broken. How much respect do you show your plumber?
You are getting paid, so quit bitching about respect.
In the end, general IT folk aren't terribly different from automobile mechanics. Different technologies, but the same type of market niche.
Look at what happened to the way auto mechanics were perceived as that industry matured. IT's going through the same process. If anything, I suspect IT's likely to get *more* devalued over time as 'something anybody can do with remedial training', just because the costs of entry are way less than setting up a mechanic's shop.
I think the devaluation of IT skillsets is inevitable as the older generations are replaced by people who grew up with computers. To folks older than our generation, computers were and remain mysterious magic boxes, and as long as they were the people in power, their perception could be exploited to artificially inflate the value of IT expertise.
Nowadays IT's commonplace - the old inflated perception of value is dissipating, and the market is adjusting. Skills are only as valuable as their scarcity.
Much of this disrespect comes from jealousy and fear of you. You actually know how to use the technical systems. They blame people like you for the design flaws in the system. They don't want their boss to know that they can't figure out the technical system.
Look-- we are now looking at a era where technical decisions are being made by people who don't understand technology.
For example: I'm employeed, but am looking for a new job. Many workplaces let you submit your resume via email. So I write an email-- The body of the email is my cover letter, the resume is an attachment.
2 months later, I get an email back saying "Where's the cover letter"? When I call back to clarify, they say y "No no, don't put the cover letter in the email. You need to include the cover letter as an attachment. We need to scan it into the Peoplesoft system." The person cannot figure out how to enter an email into their brand-spanking new Peoplesoft system. Is that dumb or what?
Now tell me, when you mail a postal letter do you include one letter that says "Look at the next sheet of paper for the cover letter?" No.
Technology is getting out of hand...
94% of Repubs and 21% of Dems voted to renew the Patriot Act
Thank gosh! I thought I was crazy, and for along time I thought I was the only to whom this has happened.
I used to command a lot of respect when I was a technician in the 80's. Of course back then, I had to wear a suit and shower daily, which is against my religion.
Now, thanks to the ever-increasing tolerance and appreciation for various lifestyles and religions, I am now permitted to wear business casual, and it has been ruled unconstitutional and against my religious rights to force me to shower. So I'm glad I gained a bit of freedom, but I noticed that clients seem to resent me for it and try to show their displeasure by standing as far away from me as possible.
Also, I think there are bad impressions about me because so many of American jobs go to my relatives overseas. They are hard workers, and they deserve the jobs! Just because we cannot speak in an accent that is understood by our customers DOES NOT make us unqualified to represent!
Also personally my boss really seems to hate the fact that I leave work 3 times a day to go pray. I don't understand, it's only 1 hour of prayer every now and then, and it's not like my presence is missed! My only comfort is that he will be sent to the eternal tar trap in the fifth level of Zimboonu when he is finally striken for his transgressions.
I don't know. Over the past few years, it seems as though I have been getting more and more opportunities and freedoms, but now more people resent me. I thought this was the land of "live freely as a free person might, doing freely as you wish!"
During the boom anyone and everyone was in this business. Every guy who could launch VB was treated like a god. Tons of custom software development houses sprung up and promised the world to unwitting clients.
Years later, after dumping millions of dollars into our industry, clients are wising up. Most companies have horror stories at this point. Most of them have been burned by start-up custom software houses who can no longer maintain the broken wreck they have created. Most clients have been through the ringer with consultants who charge an arm and a leg but don't deliver anything.
There are a lot of good computer guys out there, and a lot of good software companies, but my honest opinion is that most people in our business are little better than snake oil salesmen.
We have gone from the guy who saved them from their ignorange, since everything was so brand new and they felt stupid, to the equivalent of the plumber or phone guy.
:)
Since the technology isn't that new anymore, they don't feel dumb anymore when it breaks. Everyone "knows" that it's Microsoft's fault and nothing they did could ever cause this much distruction.
How many times did you hear customers belittle themselves while you tried to defend their dignity: "No, no, it's nothing you could have prevented. Oh, no, you're not that stupid. This is hard." It's the only time I've ever heard so many millionaires and businessmen call themselves idiots.
And now? They don't even want to know how it works, "just fix it" is the reply. No more apologizing for their stupidity.
Maybe everyone finally realized that they're not stupid after all. Or maybe, they're tired of software breaking when it's not their fault. Parhaps this is OUR fault for telling them for years that, no, they didn't do anything, they're not stupid. Perhaps it's time to go back to confirming a person's insecurities.
Most folk'll never lose a toe, and then again some folk'll...
*IN GENERAL*
Computers are simpler to repair
Software is easier to troubleshoot
Remote assistance is starting to work
Companies are working hard to eliminate the technician
The goal should be that the mail room guy becomes your "technician" for everything easily replaceable. He will just take a new "computer" from a box, un-plug, re-plug and mail off the failed box for off-site repair. Happily all of your data resides on a server hosted off-site and the OS is loaded into memory on each boot up.
Seriously this line of work is going to be a much smaller segment of the market as the years progress and in ten years there will be no such thing for the most part.
The guy who comes to "fix" your computer will be as unknown as the iceman is today.
This isn't a flame - it's notice to start retraining now and get ahead of the game.
When the Berlin Wall collapsed I didn't sit on my ass in my fat aerospace job waiting for it to be pulled out from under me. I changed industries, took a pay cut and crawled right back up the ladder.
If you no longer command respect maybe today is the time to take start looking elsewhere - no matter how much you enjoy what you are doing now. it's not going to get any better, but it will get far worse.
I'm an undergraduate student who was recently picked up as the assistant coordinator of our campus media dept. At the same time, a recently graduated guy became the coordinator.
:)
I have an office, an extension, a fancy name tag, an email address, and about a dozen student workers. Yet when my boss and I walk down the hall, people (even those who know me from before the job) greet him and ignore me. I jokingly pointed it out to him once, but then we started watching for it, and realized that it happens almost every time we see someone.
If I have too little respect amongst staff and faculty, I have too much from student workers, many of which are older and further along in their studies than I. Last month I told a senior that if he refers to me one more time as "Mister (lastname)" I would make him clean the filters in all the projectors with his hands.
I've lost all friends amongst those who used to be my peers, and staff completely ignore me. It's the worst of both worlds!
Perhaps you're speaking from experience.
My own experience has been always to do a little more than asked, stay a little longer than needed, and go that extra mile. I've worked with too many people who said "I'll do more if they'll pay me more."
I did more, and now they pay me more. Those who chose to wait for the raise before taking on more responsibility are still waiting -- and still choosing to.
And you, madam, are very ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.
...was buying an Aretha Franklin CD from a co-worker. ;)
There are two seasons in my world - Hockey and Construction
Sorry, I had to ask. On a more serious note, some of the responses you've seen so far are on the mark. You're an expense. If things worked the way they're supposed to, much of your expertise wouldn't be needed. If you're just troubleshooting, yea, you're the new version of the copier repair tech. Neither lawyers nor electrical engineers nor mid-level executives see you as their peer.
Worse, there has been a lot to dilute the view of computer professionals as _professionals_ lately, from the luster being knocked off tech by the dot-com bust, to an increasing number of posers ( think 'leetspeak' ) trying to pass themselves off as technologically knowledgeable, to a flood of certified MS/NET/CISCO/whatever folks who took a two-day class and paid for an exam but don't know how to _do_ squat, to an increase of good-ol' Amerkin anti-intellectualism. Call it a backlash if you will, but I think it's real. You can get respect now, but you really have to earn it, and you won't always get it even if you deserve it.
Things that add value are sometimes small jobs that don't effect your total hours work. Things like volenteering talking to the customer to see how things are going, Dooing that little extra bit in your work to make it a little nicer then they expected. Attend volentary meeting, to keep up what is happening. These things are looked favoraly vs. just working more hours (espectilly if you are paid hourly becuase you are still an expence and you are using up more money)
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
...Nick Burns, your company computer guy....
Then, you have the world of IT consulting. Not a corporate environment where the technician is "a fellow employee" but truly a world of on-demand service calls and sometimes even outright hostility. Over the past 5 years for me, consulting has shrunk from "cool, here's our IT guy to help us" to "why are you here again?". Once, in the past few months, I even had a client who refused to pay 20% of their bill because their SBC DSL router died, which caused "downtime" until it was fixed, which was "my fault". We now live in a place where we get charged, literally, by the hour for downtime instead of being thanked for locating the problem, calling SBC and getting the replacement router out. I'm personally frustrated to the point where I'll take last year's $175k revenue and shit-can it in favor of a $70k cube because customers have become *that* unreasonably demanding. To top it off, they demand you work yourself out of a job ("show up, hook us up and it better run forever without you for the next 10 years"). So, respect? Far declining. I wish I would have sold-short respect in 2000.
When the tech I developed won us a $500 million contract, they gave me a color monitor for my PC.
people have always treated me like a mushroom... but I am knocking down less dough that I was half a decade or so ago.
.net shop and well, I do get treated like a pariah or mac user or something by my co-workers (I think the original post is on about customer/consumer types rather than peers:-).
Now I'm working in a
But I was a red-headed step-child comin' up so it's water off a duck's back
Working for a small company (90 people)and doing 100% of the IT work myself. I actually tend to see some respect. I once made a joke how no one ever calls IT when things are working. So a few people call me randomly thanking me for keeping the network working.
Granted the two IT guys before me where slackers and didn't know IT support from the shit they took after lunch. (sorry, a little venting)
I feel the more respect you get the more you interact with your users/clients and the more personaly they know you. Granted In a smaller company it's eaiser to do.
that I've been chatting online with babes, all day.
Besides, we both know I'm training to become a cage fighter.
I always treat everyone with more respect than I'd like in return, no matter their education, ethnicity, religious beliefs, taste in music or whatever. This lets me seperate the people I don't want to associate with and the people that actively want to spend time with me. Everyone knows I'm the most level-headed person around and I am definitely a yardstick of emotional development for those around me. I'm the guy that if two people have a story and come to different terms, they tell me the story and through questions, force me to say who was right and wrong. I generally say just enough to address the question but I dodge the answer because that would only hurt the situation. I know I'm respected because I'm not just another student, I help my classmates with problems and I'll sit at a bar and have a pint with you.
You can get great respect for performing your job brilliantly, or you may be ignored. Yet it will not really change your position substantially.
Suppose someone at a fast food restaurant does a bang-up job of serving your food - gets the order right, the food is prepared perfectly. You respect him. But do you think he's now in the same tier as you? Maybe you'll give him a few extra bucks, but you probably won't invite him to your parties and you'd feel pretty weird if your graduate-school educated sister went out with him.
Well, that goes in both directions. Your B-school educated manager, or PhD-awarded engineer or researcher, is going to give you respect for a job well done. But if you think that translates into access to a new tier of status and esteem, think again. A lot of IT geeks think that their mastery over one piece of infrastructure should translate into general esteem for their intellectual prowess, but that's as much driven by resentment and an inability to understand what's really going on around them as anything.
Actually, a better comparison might be FAX. You declare the number of pages, and note if that includes the coversheet or not.
Next, you DO NOT put your cover letter into the 'memo' area of the fax coverpage.
Why put your CL into an attachment (with full name in the file name) rather than the email body? Because if the person receiving has to jump through an extra hoop, your resume is discarded. Period. If they save the attachments to a central repositiory and grep them for buzzwords, you think they'll really want to go to the bother of copy/paste and save your CL? No.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
It sounds like the parent is saying, IT is now a commodity. People value luxuries. You pay a nickel for ramen noodles but a few hundred so your video card will render better graphics. People who repair plumbing and fix cars are paid way less than people designing personalized cutting edge media centers for homes.
That's why it's important to get a GOOD education and stay ahead of the curve. College teaches you how to learn, which is precisely what it takes to stay ahead. If you stay a technician, and your technology becomes ubiquitious, then you stand out no better (or at least not much better) than the cashier who checks out my groceries. And yes, if you have to call in the manager to checkout a certain item, I probably won't be happy.
Maybe it's not how things should be, but it is how they are perceived by the majority of non-technical people.
(check by sort "oldest first")
A first post with the words "frist psot" on slashdot modded +5 funny? That's impressive. I guess it's like that old saying, you can fool some of the moderators all of the time and all of the moderators some of the time... or something.
My other first post is car post.
I think that perhaps respect in the workplace in general is down. There seems to be a distinct lack of appreciation for the working class, while of course the visible usual-buttkissing applies to those higher up whilst we bitch about them in private.
I'm a sysadmin/technician myself, and I do notice a notible amount of disrespect at times in my job - sometimes often enough because others just don't understand the work involved in things they ask for - but I can't say I'm the only victim of this as my co-workers often enough readily disrespect each other as well.
I help out the players on the local minor league hockey team here in Biloxi. I've let all the guys on the team know that they can come ask me questions and get me to help them with their computers. It's mostly just general maintenance on their computers. Cleaning up the filesystem, getting rid of spyware and adware and trying to prevent new infections of the same.
These guys are athletes, most of them just want to surf the web and do email so some of them are nowhere near computer literate. And they all seem to genuinely appreciate the help I provide. Sometimes I wish I got paid for it, but I do it because they play for the team that I support, so it's my way of giving back to them.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, For you are crunchy and go well with ketchup.
a. College
b. Us Job
c. Input India factor
d. Wait 2 years
... but then again, that's not saying much now, is it?
At my place of work, I have seen a general form of apathy given to our tech. sector folks. At first they were very cherished, and salaries would be paid to them in kind without any sort of thought. Now, the business leaders (jerks) want results before pay, and overtime with little or no compensation. Granted, these are not Linux/Unix Admins, and the Network admins aren't handling $600,000 routers - but nonetheless, they don't get as much respect as they used to. I feel mainly this is due to stagnation, and due to people's apathy about the tech. sector. They don't see it as a cure all, but an obligatory part of society now. I imagine in the future that more of this will come about as kids get older. In short, they just know how to do more...and thus the mystery behind technology...vansihes. Unless some extrodinarily astounding tech. innovations come to pass, I can see this being the case. (I'm talking moving shit with our minds - BIG shit, not cursors.)
Help me, help you. - Jerry McGuire
1980s--> Ridiculed Computer Nerd
/. love to romanticize about our geekiness, only us geeks appreciate it. Nobody else gives a shit about you or me except you or me.
1995 --> Socially Defunct Internet Junkie
1998 --> All-Powerful, Universally Loved and Admired Icon of Intellectual Prowess and Thinkgeek Humour
1999 --> Profit!!!
2000s--> Returning to Ridiculed Computer Nerd / Socially Defunct Internet Junkie
Sorry man... as much as we all here on
do() || do_not();
You guys make more than some of the people I work with (who maintain the systems that run call centers).
Seriously, though, did you look at the mascot on his website? A significant number of people hate the kind of smug pretentiousness portrayed there. Even stupid people hate to be looked down on. Scratch that- stupid people especially hate to be looked down on.
It may not be due to you personally, but from people like you.
Your being a technician used to have respect, but now it doesn't because maybe people are sick of computers being fundamentally broken. I know I am (hardware wise), software I can fix, or choose something reputable from the beginning.
For me respect goes like this:
1) Tabla Rasa (blank slate) this is the ground state, where I give you basic respect as a human being
2) initial impression respect. This is where I make judgments about your "type". For me, if your a technician, thats not too high on my respect continuum.
3) Real respect. This is where you earn or loose points here. Its up to you, and subject to change.
I know a lot of geeks with the same problem. Maybe you need a little of this
I think I get respect a lot for what I do, especially when it comes to fixing an issue that has been bothering a client for a long time or significantly improving some aspect of their business. Those clients who have dealt with me since I first got my internship and then when it turned into a full-time job after college have a ton of respect for me, even though I often show up only when there is problems. Why is this? Because I show that I care about their issues, I am extremely friendly and understanding, and I usually do a great job without costing them a lot of money.
But I feel I have to really earn it though...and not for the right reasons.
You wouldn't believe how many times someone as looked at me the first time (before they saw me do my job) and said "are you 12 years old?" I'm 22 and almost 23 thank ya!
Why do they say that? Because I happen to look younger then my age (skinny, not that tall, etc.). Really, the only thing that could possibily change their mind is if I actually let my facial hair grow out to a full beard (which I can very easily do) instead of shaving every day.
My response has always been "I'm 22, just graduated from college, and I can drink legally if you ever need proof of my age." (which always draws a huge laugh by everyone, especially those who already know me).
One time though I literally had to show my college ID and license to some lady because she didn't believe me (seriously, not in a joking manner, she told me flat out).
Short of growing a beard (which I can get a good one started just a day or two without shaving and a full one in a week), I have no idea how to solve this issue short of just doing my job and earning respect.
The sad part is, I can't believe people have gone "you must be 12 years old" right in my face the first time they notice me. Pretty darn sad...talk about not having any manners or respect. There are ways around such a direct question, like asking if I am out of college yet or something.
You used to need intelligence to work with computers. People respect intelligence. Now days, nearly any idiot can get a job in computers if they accept lower pay. I suspect our reputation may have declined in the last few years. Even people who buy Computers-For-Dummies know how to recognized a moron a 20 paces.
At my place of employment, the IT department is considered nothing more than a necessary evil on a good day, and a giant anchor around the business on a bad day. We are looked down on as something that funnels money off the bottom line and slows down all the nifty things that 'the business' wants.
.. 'the business' dictates what they want, how soon they want it, and what they'll pay for it, and if you disagree, management over rules you and forges ahead until someone below them has to take the blame for the failure.
.. but lately, I've seen it first hand.
.. the business wants inventory and configuration management so we can do all the ITIL crap. Fine and dandy ... I find out yesterday, after 2 weeks of 12-15 hour days, that they've changed the deadline, and want it end of MAY now. Oh, and I'm not allowed to work anymore overtime on it, because thats costing too much money. Oh, and the specs have changed. Oh, and I can't have the database server I wanted because it costs too much.
... a lot of businesses forget that without IT they wouldn't be able to handle the volume of business they do ... they wouldn't have their sales databases, their registers, their servers, their spreadsheets and powerpoint files ... they'd have pens and papers and filing cabinets.
'the business' has become a dirty word in IT
at first, back in the day, I didnt' really understand Dilbert and how his projects kept getting cancelled/changed midstream, how management made horrible decisions
For example, i had a massive database project due today
IT doesn't get the respect it deserves a lot of the time
Theres a reason for IT, but a lot of businesses have forgotten it. We enable businesses to be more effective, more efficient and do more work with less people and faster. Sure, we cost money - it costs money to do business. But with the right technolgoy, and the right IT people, that money is minimized and helps keep the business rolling.
We emerge from our mother's womb an unformatted diskette; our culture formats us. - Douglas Coupland
I would claim the majority of people in the IT industry just have little clue about what they're doing. It's a job to them, not a passion. They don't care about making things better, they care about getting their paycheck.
In this day, it's now painfully obvious that many people who work in IT are just bloodsuckers. They claim to know what they're doing and yet they manage to accomplish amazing feats of stupidity.
Come on. We all know that guy who's an Exchange administrator who can't explain how an e-mail gets from one persons computer to another. Or the web designer who solely uses Frontpage. Or the system administrator who has managed to get Windows installed on a PC.. but can't quite do anything else.
It's all too common. The IT industry just pisses me off now because it's filled with flunkies got an MCSE out of a crackerjack box.
And now Joe Public has a dim view on techies? Took them too bloody long imho.
The biggest factor in my opinion, is a change in the work environment. Technology was meant to be easier to use and speed our work up for us. What it actually did was make us become reliant on a certain way of doing things and increased our overall workload. This has a two-fold effect by making most technology critical to how we do our jobs and, at the same time, forced us to work at a faster pace. When things break down, the end-user just sees his work quickly piling up and everyone else equally impacted down the line.
Technology is no longer mysterious, it's a necessary tool to achieve a specific end. The technical person is no longer a magician but something akin to an auto-mechanic. And everyone is suspicious of auto-mechanics!
If you still want to be treated well, assist the individual home users who still use dial-up to get their e-mail once or twice a week. They're still happy to get any help when things go badly.
go dig through your own/other people shit for far less. Personally, I don't mind ponying up the cash.... ;0
So working as the jack of all trades computer guy for a public relations company, I have seen days of praise and days of defiance. Maybe overexaggerated there on the language.
:-)
Anyway when I added a feature to Access that allowed staff to go from a record they were looking at to the beginning of a business letter in Word, I got kudos from management. One of the vice presidents (this is a small company of about 30 employees) came down and said thanks. He said "wow that is so amazing and so useful, never in a million years would i have thought of that". Something like that. I probably exaggerated a little.
The same vice president claimed "I know you do your job, but don't take it personal, I think you don't know what you are doing" when I told him that the blackberry that he had bought would not open attachments sent to it unless we installed expensive software. Not only that but he was having problems with his set up. He wanted things working a certain way but wouldn't tell me so it seemed like I was screwing up.
So I know I'm an asset to the company. Sometimes I'm met with praise and other times with defiance. Most of the time I'm completely ignored as I go about my daily routines.
So I say that's kind of normal, can't expect praise every day.
The general rule is management wont notice if things are working just fine unless they are conscientious. Or if they notice they wont bring it up that often as they are busy dealing with things that are not working. But if something breaks and the person woke up on the wrong side of bed, May God help you.
.... ... }
int main (void) {
Could it be the way you always leave a room saying
"Oh, by the way - YOU'RE WELCOME!!!"
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
to me. At my place of employment, the managers often see praise and respect as an equivalent substitute for salary and benefits.
I've got a family from which I receive love and respect. I work to provide money to feed and shelter my family. I don't work for respect, and frankly as long as I'm doing my job, I don't really care if my managers respect me or not.
Your respect is your paycheck. Do your job and youll keep earning your "respect"
How about being insulted by the level of pay offered by a company. Does experience carry no weight these days?
"Respek. Today's episode is about respek. There be so little respek in deh world today dat if you look up deh word behind me [points to RESPEK] in the dictionary, you'll see that it's been taken out."
(Apologies to Ali G.)
Oh sure. People keep you around and rely on you because they need your magic but they don't "respect" you any more than they respect a wrench, screwdriver, or any other tool.
In fact, if they could, they would get rid of you. But they can't.
Real respect would be if they realized and acknowleged the amount of time it took for you to achieve your level expertise and the number of different systems, languages, applications and technologies that you had to master in order to be even marginally competent. But they think computers are just glorified calculators and that it's "easy" to do what you do; they just don't have the time or it's beneath them. It's got to be easy... how else could you have fixed the problem in less than 15 minutes?
Don't confuse "tolerate" with "respect". They're not the same; even when "tolerate" is masked in a smile of dependence. But from your recent experience it sounds like you are coming to learn this for yourself.
I will never live for sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
I'll tell ya, I don't get no respect, no respect at all. When I was a kid, when my parents went shopping, they always took me with them. That way, they could park in the handicapped section.
The other night I had a fight with the dog. My wife said the dog was right. And she told me this right in front of the dog. Now the dog has no respect. My wife throws the ball, he waits for me to bring it back.
I tell ya, nothin goes right. I went into a gay bar. They asked for proof of sex. I showed them proof. They said it wasn't enough.
I don't get no respect. I told my landlord I want to live in a more expensive apartment. He raised the rent!
Last week I saw my psychiatrist. I told him, "Doc, I keep thinking I'm a dog." He told me to get off his couch.
---
I wish Rodney was still alive, healthy, and telling jokes.
Seems to me that many of us have found we can pawn our l33t skills in the workplace to coerce the acceptance we are still smarting from not getting in junior high (and why not? It was SERIOUS). Problem is it does not really work. Jobs are just about dollars, and they exist at the whim of the market, as you point out. Trying to prop yourself up based on workplace status is to build on shifting sands. Like some enduring respect for your skills? Get involved in a GPL project. Like some respect for your financial position? Invest in real-estate. Like to wipe out those junior high memories? Take Salsa or Lambada lessons (I am not kidding). Me? I just want sharks with frikken laser beams, goddamnit!!!
This only makes sense. An increasing proportion of people who use computers come from the general population. In relation to computing professionals, their position is increasingly that of consumers rather than colleagues. The traditional respect for a professional which is based on an informed recognition of ability is bound to suffer.
That's one main factor, as I see it. The other is that our culture is going through a characteristic phase of technology change in which adoption is followed by social disruption. The same process happened as agriculture transformed social structure, and again during the industrial revolution. This time around, we have other major forces of social disruption at play as well, including globalization, the inversion of market and social values, and the accumulation of ecological effects which began with the previous two revolutions.
Some of these forces are pretty abstract, even though their effects are not. But the force of technological change is manifest in an unprecedented flood of new artifacts into people's lives. As bearers of that change, we make a very visible target for frustration not only with the artifacts and their mysterious technology, but with disruptive forces in general. Our very competence can become a liability.
Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
You may have the technology knowlege and could do helpdesk if you hadn't advanced beyond that type of work; and the business acumen because you must understand more than just technology - law, regulation, ethics, physical security, and attempting to show your superiors that they are getting an ROI. Then realize that to them you are in the 'loss' column whether you protect them well or not; and often your success is measured in what you don't have to do (i.e. Incident Response or Forensics) rather than what you do.
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
So my boss tried to console me with some lip-service: the engineers are more valuable than the managers. You see, the company can find a new manager without too much trouble, but replacing an engineer, someone who can come in and pick up the hardware and the code, is much more difficult. This led to the obvious question: if the engineers are so valuable, why don't we get the huge bonuses and stock options?
I'll let you guess at his answer, but here's a hint: I updated my resume that night.
-paul
Pistol caliber is like religion: everyone has their favourite, and theirs is the only right choice.
... do that awnser your question?
*ducks*
That is how my past three jobs have been, no respect.
Now side-work I do for people who need technical help, I get more respect at. It just seems the corporations I worked for treated me more like an object than a person.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Clients, they love me and have posters of me on their walls that they worship daily.. My company, they love me when I'm in the spotlight and I do a great job.. like take this recently when I had to make a new demo site for one of America's largest companies.. I got numerous praises like "wow that was incredible".. but on the other side of the coin, when the fanfare dies down.. things like the following happen.. one time there was a new employee and the HR lady was introducing them.. then she introduced them to me.. "uhh.. I'm not sure what you do.. you helped with that one site didnt you?" HELPED? I SINGLEHANDEDLY DID IT and she certainly knows better. Another time I was supposed to present at a meeting, BUT THEY DIDNT HAVE ME ON THE INVITATION...... Funny how I can be overlooked sometimes.
I think a big part of it has to do with a change in general "geek" climate. You see back in da' day...computer techs were more rare and tended to have more of a God complex even if they knew very little.
Now the tech market is more saturated and your value and worth is more geared on how good you REALLY are and how well you interact with the client--and how well they like you. The importance of "marketabiliy" is much higher than it used to be say in the mid 90's or earlier.
As an example, I do not even remotely personally identify with the "Computer Guy" SNL skits. My users ask for me by name and I'm humble in my treatment with them. This has been a more encouraged attitude now since the market is so saturated with techs in general now.
I'm just someone they think they can order the latest high tech bling-bling from. One guy told me what kind of laptop "would best suit his needs" and to "please order this one" rather than the company issue IBM I had already ordered. He's getting issued a Blackberry now. I made sure to dig up the old school secondhand beatup 6800 out of a desk drawer rather than the nice new 7100T we're issuing now:) He also got a company issue IBM, not the pretty Sony Vaio he requested.
This guy is way out there
You are in control of the computers, and over time, computer have gotten faster and what not. So people feel that they should also have become crash proof. So when things go wrong, they look at you and ask to themselves, "If he is so great at computers, why do they keep going down?" or "What the hell are we paying him for if my computer keeps blowing up in my face?" Its something that can't be avoided, since I have found that its more PEBKAC than computer errors, but yet its our fault now, not the technology.
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Your statement is very true. I want to point something out though: Disrespect is also earned. _Every_ human being _deserves_ a measure of simple human dignity. To treat someone with less than simple human dignity is uncalled for unless that person has wronged you. (Please not I'm not implying that the statement you made [respect is earned] is in any way in contradiction with my statement [dignity is universal, disrespect also being earned])
This subtle distinction seems lost on so many people I have dealt with. This isn't courtesy, it's basic.
<rant> This is the one thing I wish I could have impressed upon my peers and teachers and principals in grade school: that although respect is earned, DIGNITY is INHERENT. Until someone steps on your toes, it is wrong for you to attack them. Treating someone with dignity doesn't detract from how tough or cool or whatever you are. Treating anyone without dignity when you have no reason just makes you an ass.</rant>
This may be a little OT as I am referring to ALL social interaction and not just that with techs and geeks, but I have seen the statement "Respect is earned" abused so commonly to mean "dignity is earned" that my emotions just go nuclear every time I see it remembering childhood injustices. The sentiment may seem obvious, but alas it appears not to be. It would be worth my life to see it codified, at least socially.
Keep the R-E-S-P-E-C-T, all I ask is dig-ni-ty. Is that so wrong?
"A witty saying proves nothing." ~Voltaire
"d'Oh!" ~Homer
Oh shit, the cat got my tongue!
I worked for a Fortune 20 company for eight years, and attempted multiple times to move out of a position because I didn't feel technically challenged enough. I escaped twice, only to be recalled within months because my knowledge was valued. During my second recall, we had a downsizing and I volunteered to take on additional work in the position that I wanted to get out of, which was seen by many people as showing loyalty to the company and gained me respect by my peers and local management. My position was then eliminated (offshored) and I was forced into a new position where there was a tremendous skills mismatch, and guess what? I quickly got fired due to "judgement issues". At the time I had a 9-month old son who had severe birth defects such that he had spent seven months in the intensive care unit at a hospital. So, call me jaded or bitter, but respect really doesn't mean anything to me-- no matter how valuable your skills are-- and no matter how much respect people may have for you and your abilities-- you are still expendible.
I'm 6'2", and I'm taller than about 97% of other men (in the US). If you're 6'5", you're taller than about 99.7% of other men, and if you're 6'8", well, you're just too tall, at least according to this calculator. (6'6" is taller than 99.9% of other men, but that's as high as the calculator goes.)
P.S. The calculator is a pop-up, so you'll need to allow those if you want to use the calcuator.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
In consulting situations, I've been looked on with suspicion before, but the people who have done so were new clients that had been burned by others in the past, sometimes several times. So naturally, they were leery of me when I first arrived on the scene. With time and quality work, they come around.
I'm not good in groups. It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent. - Q
Respect does not have to be a zero-sum scenario.
If you treat it as a poker table, where for someone to win, someone else has to lose, there will always be a loser and that person will not be happy with you for being a winner.
If you treat it as a symbiotic relationship, then wanting respect is a healthy thing.
An example is my relationship with our field service dept. I'm in the engineering dept, but I help them out by giving them information and teaching them how to solve problems. I have gained respect from them, and they will gain respect from thier customers without costing anyone any respect. I also ask for information on existing situations, which they give me. I respect them for this. We have a mutual respect for eachother.
Treating respect as a teeter-totter only gets you up so far, lifting the board off of the bar takes everyone higher.
If you think education is expensive, you should try ignorance -- Derek Bok, president of Harvard
how she feels after rebooting Windows after it crashes during a recording session.
period
Get a pin and pop that ego...
Also used to not have much competition. Since Plug'N'Play has come out, seems like everyone and thier son can troubleshoot and fix problems. I've seen ISP's and computer shops offer 7 dollar an hour jobs, and have to sort out dozens or sometimes hundreds of resumes from 'techs'. All these pretenders running around are giving us a bad name. People are getting used to 3rd rate support (thier own fault for not paying for better), but just being a tech isn't what it used to be, too many others to muddy the waters, and the good name.
An I.T. motto in the hands of an idiot is a dangerous thing...
Seriously... I'm 6'5", which means that I'm taller than a good 95% of the people that I meet.
Being 5'6" myself, and ectomorphic in physique as well, I know all to well what you're talking about. I'm invisible. In any group setting, the "Alpha Male" is never me by default. If I am required to take a leadership role, I have to earn it, every time - it's never given to me. Having been small my entire life, I've observed the phenomena you're talking about keenly - from the other side. Fortunately, being an introverted geek I prefer invisibility anyway. I'd like to think I'm well-adjusted, however I've known other Lilliputian fellows with severe Napoleon complexes; you know the type, small and diminuative they demand attention and are generally the worst pricks you'll ever meet.
Don't assume you deserve respect because a hobby you had back in the 90's is now a "career".
You can go to a career/business college and obtain a "certificate" for what you do in 6 months. Now how respectful is that?
If you want a job people will respect, become a physician.
I get plenty of respect. However, virtually none of it is because I'm a "geek" or "all powerful technician". Rather, it comes from the fact that I do what I do well, under promise and over deliver, communicate effectively, deal honestly and straighforwardly with clients and customers, provide generously of my time, information and resources and otherwise try to be a better person.
That respect has hardly fluctuated over the past 8 years that I've been working as a professional. It's because it's not tied to my profession. Instead, it's the kind of respect that lasts: the kind that's earned. Earned respect goes more with personal integrity than your station in life. There are people in all of society's strata that I have immense respect for. At the same time, there are lots of people in highly respected *positions* that I have 0 respect for.
If your level of respect fluctuates and is tied almost entirely to your chosen profession, it's not *you* that's been getting the respect, it's your job title. You've just been inheriting respect from your profession.
The Glass is Too Big: My Take on Things
I'm a contracter at a large goverment (US) complex.
......
I don`t get no respect. I joined Gambler`s Anonymous. They gave me two to one I don`t make it.
Oh, I was an ugly kid. My old man took me to the zoo. They thanked him for returning me.
I`m trying a new diet now. The diet is Viagra and prune juice. I tell ya, I don`t know if I`m coming or going.
I tell ya I get no respect....
When I was a kid I got no respect. The time I was lost on the beach and the cop helped me look for my parents I said, "Do you think we'll find them?" He said, "I don't know, kid, there's so many places they could hide."
It was the same thing in the army, no respect. They gave me a uniform that glowed in the dark.
Last Christmas I got no respect. In my stocking, I got an Odor-Eater.
I tell ya I get no respect. I told my dentist to put in a new tooth to match my other teeth. He put in a tooth with four cavities.
With my wife I get no respect. I took her to a drive-in movie. I spent the whole night tryin to find out what car she was in.
It had to be done.. Rodney RIP
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
Maybe it is time to stop classifying computer people seperate from other engineers. My job title is "Software Engineer" and I basicly solve technical problems all day just like an engineer, my medium is software. The level of respect between engineers and "trade professionals", which is what tech's and a good deal of network guys have become, is the same difference that always existed between engineers and electricians or mechanics. The engineer who designed the car always received more respect then the mechanic who fixed the car.
In the end it comes down to education. I just graduated with a CS degree from a reputable University so I was given respect when interviewing for engineering positions. Of course, this a different respect from the kind you get from being a good person and such, but that has nothing to do with the job your doing and everything you do with how you do your job.
Ehh...this is the life we chose.
Computer folk had an additional level of respect when what they did was seen to be difficult. But now that computers are everywhere, chances are people think that their kids can fix anything that a technician can. You have now become the Xerox repair guy, even though you use a keyboard.
If you want respect, you've got to be the guy that develops the computers, not the guy that fixes them.
respect gets YOU!! (folks must have mod points to spare when fp get a +4)
I thought about posting a story like this many many times since 2001.
Yah, we're no longer cool. It was happening before 2001, anyone working in a dying dot com could tell you that. More recently however it just seems like folks do not want to pay for my services.
Back around 98, I had no problems negotiating a good salary. If a company wasn't treating me right, i'd simple put my resume out on monster.com or fax it out, and i'd have 1/2 a dozen job offers within a week.
Some of the first few companies I worked at were great. My opinions were valued, and I was often given enough freedom in my job to do what was needed for a smooth running network.
Then around 99-2k things started falling apart. More and more my job function was being scrutinized. It felt like I was in constant competition with my managers to prove my worth.
2001, 9/11, massive layoffs, I just sort of got lost in the sea of resumes that were being pumped out by people not even in IT trying to get a decent paying job. I think this is where folks really started losing respect for IT as a whole. It wasn't the whole phony plumbers with a MCSE making it bad for us, it was the accountants, MBAs, former executives, and salespeople getting these positions, simply because they could put on a better face to HR and hiring managers than most of us socially inept geeks could. They were taking our jobs, and making us look bad with their lack of understanding for the role.
Eventually, I went into private consulting. Started my own company and picked up a few clients here and there. At first my rate was $75@hr, then $60, then $50. I went as low as $30 for one of my clients (They would pre-pay 10 hours a month) Even there, I got myself into a contract that was definetly more benificial for the client than it was myself.
The last client I dropped had 5 offices spread around the bay area, with one all the way in Redding. God damn, what a mess though.
The owner of the company insisted his employees had administrative access to their own machines. Every month those 10 hours of support would be eaten up by running ad-aware on thier spyware laden machines. Originally the contract was just for 3 offices, but when the new offices were brought online, their employees would call me for support. Being I'm a nice guy, i'd happily do what I could over the phone for them.
Things really fell apart when the Redding office came online though.
I had an injury that made me immobile. The office manager for the Redding office, and the owner of the company kept calling me up saying it needed to be done that week, and they were threatening to bring in another tech if I couldn't get that office online that week. I asked many times, "Hey, are you sure that office is ready?" I didn't want to lose that customer, so I told them I would subcontract another tech to go up there and be my remote hands.
Part of their setup is homebuilt routers and freeswan VPN's. Despite my debilitating condition, I spent the night before sending my tech up there preparing the client machines. They had no data for me on the DSL. The office manager LIED and told me they had DSL ready to go up there, but she just pretended to be a ditz and couldn't click start>run>cmd>ipconfig. She just kept telling me it wasn't working but she could browse the web just fine.
Well, Redding is about 500 miles from where I live. Did I mention that yet? No, I guess not..
My tech gets up there and the building has no power. There are no phone lines set up. Construction guys are working on generators. The floor was still bare uncarpeted cement. No furniture, No DSL, no desks to set the client PC's up on, nothing. Just a bare building. My tech called me up freaking out. There wasn't anything he could do.
So he did the best he could, even staying an extra day to wait for the DSL company (frontiernet I think) to get out there and at least get us a dial tone into the building.
Again, just t
...'nuff said.
I've been in the industry now for ~20 years, starting at a computer store when I was in high school. For a while in the early 90's, I had my own consulting business, and had a lot of respect from the community. Then the town I was in (pop. ~50k) burst with 7 major computer & electronics stores (3 have gone bust nation wide), and 12 local computer stores. That, coupled with a sudden drop in the Canadian exchange rate at the time (11% dropped to %45 in a month), forced me out of business & to relocate.
I then worked for a large chip manufacturer for several years, rising to lead technician, only to be smacked down by new management that didn't care about techs. I also worked as a contractor for another tech company, but walking in the door, I was treated as "less than worthy of knowledge" just because of my status (some of the engineers changed their views shortly after working with me).
My biggest problem is that I don't have a degree. I chose the military right out of highschool (seniors take note) with the promise of getting money for college, only to be snubbed (I got out a week before my unit was deployed for Desert Shield/Storm in 1990).
I have worked with engineers that acknowledged the aptitude and skills I had (they can be great mentors), and I have worked with highly degree'd individuals (some with Masters, a couple with PhD's) that didn't even know how to debug their own code.
How do you respond to someone that tells you that "you don't know anything because you're only a technician"?
I'm on the programming side of IT at the moment, and I have to admit I have no respect at all for the other side of IT which brought us both firewalls which block instant messaging, and email filtering which blocks harmless attachments. Those guys just fly in, crap all over everything, and fly out again.
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
And show the rest of us how it's done.
Sheesh. And some geeks wonder why they don't respect. Respect is like love--you only get more of it by sharing it.
I suggest a re-reading of 'The Tao of Programming' and 30 minutes meditation, once a day :)
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
I tend to not respect people who whine about "getting respect" or how they give it out, as if it were some commodity to be traded. In fact, I'd say that blathering on like that is actually the fastest way to get me to dismiss you as an utterly useless and uninteresting person.
It is absolutely critical that you and your customer, be it an employer or contractee, need to see the systems you work on as "Their" systems and not yours
This is important, as you are here to help them with "their" problem.
If you behave as though they are your systems, such as scolding users for misuse, or simply taking absolute charge (only OK if you are CIO/CTO), then they will percieve them as "your" systems.
Why is that Bad?
Because it's the difference between them seeing you as somebody who is coming in to save them, rather than some expesive dork cleaning his own darn mess on their dime.
Unless the messes really are your fault, in which case asking for respect is silly.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
Before this job, I had quite a bit of respect. I still have it out in the community itself. Not with this boss though.
If I knew anything about what this job was going to be like before I took it, I never would have taken it. I was promised things IN WRITING that have never come to pass. So, you might ask, why didn't you do anything about it? The group I'm in is very small, and to have brought something like that up right after the move would have completely sunk me, or gotten me fired.
I think the reason I, and a couple of other people here, were hired was completely for "show", since the boss hasn't been able to hire anyone else since the time we were all hired.
This boss is a real piece of work too. He's ALL about himself, and if it does him no good, he wouldn't do a thing about it. He'll try and belittle you in front of customers, and acts like he knows EVERYTHING. He's a real bastard.
Fortunately, I have a line on a new job, and have a few other folks I have contacts with keeping their eyes out too. It'll be good to be back on projects where a meglomanic isn't micromanaging everything.
I just wish I could give some kind of warning to people that interview after I'm gone.... Abandon all hope, ye who are hired here.
It had to be said.
Mount their system partition read-only. Every decent operating system has had this trusty security feature for years.
True respect is earned because of the kind of person you are, not the things that you do (insofar as those things are not a part of who you are). Comport yourself with honor, be respectful of others, and you will earn their respect in turn. That you think having some inscrutable technical knowledge should earn you respect is, frankly, revolting.
I fix macs so I am not seen by my clients as a necessary evil. My clients see me as a fixit guy if there is semething to fix. More often than not, they see me as an enabler. I find the tools to suit their needs, then do all the necessary training. I'm in. I do my job. I'm out. Fast.
The experience is way different than when I serviced Windows machines. I'm glad I don't have to do that anymore.
I dont get no respect.
My employers used to appreciate the work I do for them, the hours of investigation and study I put into solving their problems and creating new ways to do things. People said please and thank you.
Now, I am treated like shit. My work has become an necessary evil: They know they need it, but they wish they didnt. The return on investment is no longer in their minds, just the pain of spending. All I hear are complaints.
"You want to know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." -George Carlin
Two things: I'm an *expensive* commodity, and no healthy human child has to be *taught* how to "learn". A solid university program can teach investigative scientific method, logical thought process/argument evaluation, and relevance to desired knowledge/skill sets, but "learning" is something any living human's brain with sensory input does *automatically*.
Yes, GIGO still applies.
Take the 90-Day Challenge! http://rwmurker.bodybyvi.com/
An army by all definitions is a group of people, and a group must consist of at least two. Therefor, no one is an army of one.
I put the 't' in electrical engineering.
People generally want their computers (or other IT devices) to just work. If they don't work, it's the tech guy's fault. If they work, why bother having the tech guy around?
http://www.walkingtaco.com
I worked for a large electronics firm that began going through reverse growing pains about 10 years ago. Before then the employee (regardless the position) had a great deal of respect and power. An assembly line worker had the authority to shut down the assembly line when a problem was noticed. That changed. Management began to view the employee as an expense respect was lost on both sides and jobs went over seas. I left 6 years ago and now work for a bank in the same job as a PC support technician. I have a great deal of respect here, but with any support job you are a hero one day and an a. . h. . . the next. Some days you just can't help banging your head against the wall and your customer wonders what Cracker Jack box your degree came out of. Over all I've seen respect go up, way up. Doug
I have observed that I'm the only one who treat our tech's with respect. That's because I'm from a Computer Science background and understand how they have to deal with vague descriptions and annoying problems.
My co-workers, however, view the techs as troublemakers. Constantly installing software, making our computers inaccessible, or messing up our logins. They don't realize that this is a direct response to the increasing security threats to each PC connected to the Internet. If things were as the collective mind thinks, we'd all be blissfully farming out our CPU time to "Viagra/Oxycontin/Natural Herbal Remedy/...." and have it reboot every 20 seconds.
The solutions are the problems, in response to spammers, phishers, virus propogaters, and maliscious hacks. The solutions are unfriendly by nature because they limit our computer's versatility.
So I understand the author's point-of-view and sadly, it's true.
Would be to give him a brand new, "shiny like it's right out of the box"(and it is) keyboard. Just throw the other one away, and don't mention it again.
:)
If he presses the issue, politely present this:
What's going to cost more in the end, me spending an hour of your time cleaning the keyboard(which when you figure in travel to and from the location, time finding supplies, the supplies themselves, and putting everything away, isn't likely to be under 1 hour), or buying a new keyboard?
Or, you could just clean the keyboard, and ask for a bonus
Look behind you...
1. I don't remember the last time I saw a janitor pull a 20 hour day to keep a mission critical component running
2. sorting a terabyte of data into a readable report
3. trying to support ten year old bloatware on a shoestring budget
4. while inventing new tech in their spare time to fill in gaps
You pretty much summed up what janitors do too.
Janitors for restaurants at the busiest times of the year make sure everything is running perfectly for the customers, otherwise the shit would hit the fan. Literally.
Janitors for schools would also have to sort through all the garbage left around to determine what should and shouldn't be thrown out. Have you seen the plumbing in these old watering holes and theaters? Do you know what they have to do to keep those things working and all clean? You don't think that janitors have to come up with ways to keep things tidy, or bathrooms clean? Do you think that there are little moles that come out at night to clean the place, and magically the whole place is clean by the morning?
Don't get your panties in a bunch. You're not spending 365 days of the year with 20 hour work days. You have hard-pressed time, and you have time to surf slashdot and look at pr0n. Just like how janitors spend some of their time in the basement reading fishing magazines (thank you Dilbert).
I am defenseless. Use your button. Mod me down with all of your hatred.
A bit of background to explain my perspective. I'm the network manager for a small law firm in DC. I've been doing this for about 25 years, starting with hardware, growing into software early, and working on everything from microcomputers in the 70s to minicomputers in the 80s to networks in the 90s and moving into management in 1999, about 90 days before Y2K. I've worked for the military, the government, government contractors, law firms, and drug labs.
The golden years are gone. The age where I could walk into the room and hold people in awe has passed. It's not that my skills are less than they once were, it's that over time, people have become accustomed to what the IT people can do, and today, their expectations exceed their wildest imaginings of 20 years ago. Or 5 years ago.
To be honest, I think Y2K is where it tipped. Up until then, even when there was plenty of money, there was a lot of pressure to do more with less. Y2K forced many companies to make substantial IT investments, and since then, I've seen a greater willingness to maintain code, to upgrade systems, and to avoid creating similar problems in the future. Along with a greater awareness of how IT works and what IT can do for them, users expectations have risen. Somewhere aroune Y2K, we moved from users assuming we couldn't do things to users assuming we could do anything.
Over the same general period, a lot of technology that used to be tightly controlled by IT due to cost has become so cheap that consumers now litter their homes with it. In 1990, people thought I was insane to have managed ethernet hubs in my home network. Today, gigabit switches don't raise an eyebrow.
I think when this was more of a black art, and far less pervasive, people had a greater respect for our knowledge and skills. Now that they're constantly surrounded with the stuff, I've felt I get a lot less professional courtesy and respect.
http://drteknikal.blogspot.com/
Too often on /. I read about sysadmins and computer technicians being victimized by their employers and co-workers this way.
/. In fact, you should demand a higher salary, a big office, four weeks paid vacation, regular raises, all the Doctor Pepper you can drink, and... did I leave anything out?
But listen up, victimized techies -- you have to DEMAND respect instead of whining on
And here's the key: when you don't get what you demand, quit! That'll teach them!
Then you can live in a trailer down by the river and eat stuff you find in dumpsters.
My oldest client, an ninety-one year old retired businessman, offered me the best advice I've ever received: "If you don't value yourself, no one else will." He also explained to me that money conveys value in this world. His point was that other people needed to realize that I was serious about my business, and that I was more than just some "kid" who liked computers. When he gave me this advice, I hadn't realized how hard it was for some people to believe that a teenager had a real, licensed business. Even now, I still sense some clients are skeptical. One miserably cold and rainy Saturday night, a customer called and wanted me to come immediately and resolve her printer problem. I sloshed through the rain to her house and corrected the glitch in just a few minutes. Since I charge by the hour, she decided to pay me for the exact fraction of the hour I was at her house, a whopping $7.50. I had been taken advantage of! Her perception of my worth was manifested in the mere $7.50 she paid me for the trouble I took to come out in the cold rain. Even worse, she lived in a three million dollar mansion. Swearing never to let that happen again, I instituted a new business policy: a minimum charge of one hour.
After I instituted a minimum charge policy, I had more business than ever before. Every time I have increased my rates over the years, I've received even more business. At least in my case, there is something to be said about following the market for price structures, as it showed my clients that I was serious about my business.
Even now at age 20 and having been in business for 8 years, some new clients are skeptical. But then they think: "if so and so recommended him, and a 20-year-old is able to charge $80 an hour just to fix computers, he must know what he is doing."
Respect doesn't put food on the table.
Respect doesn't get me a fancy new car.
Respect doesn't cause That Nice Lady to come over to my house and clean it every Friday.
No, my good fellows and fellowettes, all those good things take money. Cash. Moolah. The long green. Bucks. Gravy. The means. Dough. Simoleans. Bread--can you dig it?
And, as it turns out, I don't need respect. I have money.
Money is not the root of all evil. Wondering about whether or not you're being respected is the root of all evil.
I like to walk in whistling "If I only had a brain" from the Wizard of OZ. I find that sets the right expectations.
Dressing for success helps too: I prefer jeans and a T-Shirt in the summer, and whatever keeps me warm in the winter. The suits really respect someone who avoids their dress code. Or else it upsets them. Either way, I'm happy.
I also refuse to wear a watch. If asked why, I explain that it's because I bill by the hour. Amazingly, no one ever even seems confused by that answer.
And no, I'm really not joking about any of this. Life is way too short to put up with any situation you don't like. I "fire" clients every year because they are painful to work with, too demanding, disrespectful..
I'm there to perform some service. I don't expect my butt kissed, but I won't put up with nastiness or pure stupidity either. There are too many good clients out there.
-- Tony Lawrence
Becuase if you smoke cigarettes, then you stink. You're probably used to it because you're around it most of the time. But every time you meet a non-smoker, your breath, hair, clothes, car, apartment, everything about you stinks to high hell -- in the literal sense of the word. People don't tell you that you stink because politeness demands that they keep their mouths shut in those instances. They also don't tell you because self-important, whiney smokers get especially whiney when someone else points out how revolting their rather public drug addiction is.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
I've been a support technician for a number of years and I've certainly noticed people's attitude change in that time. Because computers have become so popular they have lost that air of mystery they used to have for the ordinary person. These days there is a PC in every home, and so a technician's role has kind of moved from white collar to blue collar - most people don't see you as a computer professional any more, they just see you as a workman such as a plumber or car mechanic.
I was conned by an old man in a cloak. It turns out those *were* the droids I was looking for.
You are one in a million, and the year is 2004. You are seen as a solution to a loss that should never have occurred. Everyone thinks they know what they are doing and think they can run windows server 2003 and just do things themselfs and don't know why these systems go down. They expect a server to be thrown up in 30 minutes and run for 30 years with no problems. They don't want to spend money, they want to pay you $5.15/hr or a high school dropout to do all their work for them. They want instant results and not a long term investment. Information Technology is dead and none of us have a future in it. Find another profession.
Sig: I stole this sig.
"I'm the Sysadmin, BITCH!"
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Neither VLSI circuit design, nor understanding computability and complexity theories, are manual labor. I don't even agree that sysadminning could be so reduced, but certainly the former categories cannot be dismissed.
Waaaaahhhhhh... how come people don't think of me as all powerful?
Waaaaahhhhhh... I want people to bow down before me...
Waaaaaahhhhhh... could I be any more self centered?
Do you want to be part of the team or not?
Yes? The team has rules, don't deride them, they are there for a reason (not all of them necessarily practical from a purely technical or professional point of view).
No? Then get out of the team, find a team you are comfortable with.
Honestly, techie types fit the stereotype of social ineptitude so neatly (trying to hide behind the "I bring the millions, I am the little misappreciated star" pseudo moral high ground) that is actually surprising that their non techie colleagues don't hate them more than they do.
Like if hanging out with nerdy types did not include a good amount of "brown nosing". And buzzwords? Amongst techies? No way, we 4r3 33lite, whe us no bu55word5 you xuqor.
Nothing worst than social ineptitude with an attitude.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Just look at how well paid those few cobol programmers are...
Personally I'd hate your job, but you do have a good point.
I admit it. I complain about the how little respect IT people get. I can sympathize with those who don't get raises. As one person put it, people don't notice when we keep everything running smoothly, but if their email doesn't work, the world is going to end and I'm the one to blame.
That said, most people are missing the boat. IT people provide a service. To keep people coming back requires customer service skills(just because you work for a company, doesn't mean they will be your customer, you just get fired if they don't want you). What is your mindset when you talk to the person who just opened a picture of Anna Kournikova and "suddenly" their computer doesn't work? Is it, "(explative deleted) idiot!"? Or is it, "this will take me x minutes, I will explain (nicely) what happened, tell them not to do it again, and then fix it"(and set the mail server to filter all messages with anna.* as an attachment).
You will find that more people will like you, and respect you, if you have a more positive attitude. Conduct yourself in a positive, professional manner, and you will get the respect you want.
The reason respect is declining is becuase the other workers have finally figured out you are actually increasing there chances of becoming unemployed. There are 2 causes for the heightened risk. 1. Efficiencies gained from computing technologies become "employ replacement programs". A recent one I've seen was a kiosk that lets employees change there own personal info i.e. address , direct deposit etc.. . There goes that pencil pushers job. 2. A individuals skill obsolescence becomes real obvious when the IT infrastructure has a hiccup and they can't perform there job for 6 hours. Downtime makes the other workers look dependent on you to the point of being useless when there is a malfunction.
No matter where you go , there you are.
Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill.
Enough said.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I just got a call from one of our remote offices 5 minutes ago. Since the 2 months i've been gone this is what's happened.
Apparently, after I let the contract run out the company president hired the phone guy to do the IT stuff. He went around to all the offices badmouthing me, saying I didn't do this professionally, didn't do that right, this wrong ect.
The guy tried to add another office to the VPN. Right after trying, all the offices went offline. Without even looking, I know what happened because I made the same mistake myself.
In a freeswan VPN you have a CA or central authority cert. You make this cert once, then copy it to all the client machines in the VPN. You should in the very least know how to ssh to these other boxes to make it work.
My guess is BOB (no really, thats this guys name) regenned the CA, and didn't copy it to the other machines.
On top of being more expensive than I was ($95@hr) he was grossly unqualified. His services are no longer being used by the company.
I agreed to go out to the site tomorrow because of the office managers begging. It didn't take too much begging, I always liked this guy, and he always treated me with respect. Just one condition, he can't tell any of the other offices he had me out there servicing his PC's.
Maybe i'll write tomorrow about the fine mess i'm going to see.
We sell clients on technology with many points of failure. We provide operating systems full of bugs. We provide applications that don't interoperate. We sell them monitors with dead pixels and tell them it's normal. We sell them software that needs patching, gives inaccurate results, or crashes when you look at it sideways.
Exactly how much respect should we expect when we are called in to fix it?
A Jedi craves not these things.
There are many other jobs with unsocial hours that have no aura of sanctitude around them.
Your work schedule or availability does not say anything about the importance of your job, the context does.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
:) Slap it in your journal. That was an interesting read.
I wish to coin a phrase, if no one else has done so.
We are now "Janitors of th Microsoft Plumbing"
And why are we viewed with such disdain? Imagine how you would feel about your plumber if you had to call him in two or three times a week to unclog your stopped toilet.
People expect computers to be a consumer appliance that "just works". We get a share of the blame for the appallingly low quality of shrink-wrapped software that is barely beta-test status when shipped to production users. (Test the software?- that's what users are for; Configuration Cotnrol? - that would dip into profits, let the DLLs crash, they can always reboot)
You want respect - install OSS software that doesn't crash, and get paid for adding value in the design process, instead of billing hours for reaming the t3rds out of the M$ toilet.
"Sic Semper Path of Least Resistance"
I will suggest the same.
NY next week, Mumbai after that, Warsow, Prague, Barcelona!
That boss of you was a genius.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Maybe you just suck.
Deriding people that do useful tasks.
With the negotiation and social skills of the geeks and their business accumen (did you sleep through the dot bomb fiasco or what?) we should be grateful that there were companies that did not allow the geeks to take over, otherwise we would all be unemployed.
Those people earn high salaries for a reason: they enable business to function. History is full of techies with great ideas but lousy social and marketing skills. They would have been lost without the help of people that you deride so freely.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Your comments were oh so true.
Good read.
I'm a big retard who forgot to log out of Slashdot on Mike's computer! LOOK AT ME.
A man doesn't automatically get my respect. He has to get down on his knees and beg for it.
In an average living room there are 1,242 objects Vin Diesel could use to kill you, including the room itself.
BAZZZZAT! Whuuuump... drag..... drop..... sizzle.
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
Respect it earned.. geek or not. If you have proven yourself you get respect for your skill.. if not, well then...
Now onto the business at hand: who, fucking exactly, has been "brought to justice" by the almighty Ashcroft Justice Department? Ken Lay, former CEO of the greatest business scam in the history of Wall Street and the guy that George W. Bush nicknamed "Kenny Boy"? No. But because some junior vice president was prosecuted on mail fraud or some such bullshit, apparently the Republican Party's vision of Justice (cover up the right tit on that statue!) has been done.
Second: Enron and AA were major democrat businesses, and in no way associated with Bush or the republican party, thankfully. I knew at this point I was dealing with (a.) a troll or (b.) someone so completed divorced from the reality we live in that no words printed on paper, screen, or spoken aloud could convince them that the Republican Party wasn't the Second Coming of Jesus Fucking Christ in all his 'steal from the rich, give to the poor' glory... wait, um, Robin Fucking Hood? Eh, whatever.
To say that Democrats supported Big Business in the Clinton Years is correct and every true progressive laments the shift to the right based on 'chasing the center,' but to wave a hand at the utter corruption of the Republican Party; to dismiss the right-wing-ization of K Street and the attempt to give to the rich while placating the poor with gay marriage and Terry Shiavo are the actions of a madman or a fool.
As you are on this particular message board I will assume you are neither. I will go ahead and assume you are a libertarian-leaning GOoPer who likes the fact that Gee Dubya cut his taxes and attacked the fools that messed with us on Sept. 11th (except... SURPRISE! It wasn't IRAQ!) Well, I know that winning elections are fun and it feels fantastic to spit in the face of us Dems and scream "We won! We have a man-date!" while you fondle yourselves and dream of a national flat tax, but unless you accept Jesus Christ as your Personal Savior and bow to every whim of Jerry Fucking Falwell, don't expect the honeymoon to last long.
"What we elect to call imagination is mere combination of things not heretofore combined." - Frank Norris
"a necessary evil instead of the 'all powerful technician."
lol... Sounds like the reaction I've been getting since 1994. Can't remember the last time I felt like I was seen as "All Powerful Technician"...
While I admit that respect is important, I don't do
this kind of work for respect. I do it because the
the most intractable problems are usually interesting
and challenging. The personal satisfaction that comes
with successfully solving these problems can also
carry the additional benefit of learning something
new. At the very least, it usually confirms that
hard work, study and perseverence yields tangible
results. For me, a valued and billable skill.
Let me give an example. I was recently asked to
recover a win2000 server that had been obliterated
by viruses and a disk-wipe trojan. I know, hard to
believe in 2005. Anyway, the urgency came from the fact
that the system was serving a Sybase DB with 12 years
of customer and financial data on it.
They had a good backup, virus free, sitting on one
of those usb hdd backup drives but nobody in the
office had a clue how to rebuild the server using
it. They were just told by the Dell sales rep that
it was always a good idea to backup every night --
just in case -- and they did. Every desktop was
infected as well so it was decided to rebuild the
whole environment. 45 billable hours later they were
back. No data lost. No documents or correspondance
lost. Virus free. Fully updated with a relieved staff
applying kudos for having created good backups --
which I acknowledged.
I learned a ton about their business processes and
got a unique insight into how their business works.
I was welcomed warmly and left alone to do my work.
"If you need ANYTHING just ask." They measured my
progress, I suppose, by the questions I was asking
(hopefully intelligent) and thanked me when I was
done.
For me, the thank you felt almost as good as the
check I received two weeks later. Respect? That'll
come down the road when they ask, I suggest, and
they implement, a Linux solution.
I know it is one of those trite cliches, but the better you do your job, the greater amount of work that comes your way, whether you want it or not. This phenomena is not unique to my line of work (field service) nor is it modern (my dad lived it too).
As people develop expertise in their field, their primary responsibilities take less and less effort than they did when they were new. Eventually things then tend to progress in the following manner:
1. Because of your good work, your accounts are happier with your company or run more profitably than they might otherwise be. They take on more business and buy more equipment from your company. Guess who gets to service it! Okay, you were getting bored anyway, and so you welcome the new toy.
2. The boss notices that you don't have to work very hard to keep up with your responsibilities, and knowing this, he asks you to "help out" the guys working on a difficult problem at another site.
2a. Once you establish a positive track record of fixing difficult problems, your name rises to the top of the list of who to call when there is trouble. You get an Attaboy, and wangle a free lunch or two out of the boss. That and your sense of accomplishment is your reward, but not much more money, except for the overtime.
2b. As your reputation spreads, your pager starts to go off at all hours, day and night. Blearily eyed, you trudge off into a snowstorm at 3 AM on Sunday Morning to drive the 50 miles to fix a half-million dollar machine with a turn of the screwdriver and a few taps on the keyboard. You get home at about 9 AM, just in time to get paged again by the same customer for another machine. After this debacle, you resolve to test and end up spending 3 hours doing preventative repairs to all of your company's equipment at the site before leaving. After putting in 14 hours, you arrive home. The following week, the regular tech has his easiest week in months, but you get mildly reprimanded for putting in too much overtime. Boss apologizes when you point out that the work was billable at off-hours rates.
3. For the reason above, the boss asks you to "cover" another tech's accounts while he is out sick, on vacation, or forgot to turn on his pager. Being the dedicated employee you are, you oblige, and fix a bunch of things the regular guy has neglected. The account now has higher expectations from the equipment, which means that the boss or the other tech will be calling on you frequently to maintain the performance of the equipment.
4. You are asked to help train new employees, and to work with "problem employees" to improve their skills. Training new guys with talent isn't too bad, though it is time-consuming. Trying to work with guys who have teflon-coated brain cells is ultimately futile and a waste of time.
5. You become the boss's confidant and right-hand man. He asks you to cover him on weekends, vacations, and golf outings, in addition to your expanding list of regular duties. Your cell phone rings on vacation. It's the boss pleading for help.
6. The boss eventually retires, gets promoted, or takes another job. You are now the new boss, and have to take responsibility for everything. First item on the agenda after buying a new suit for all of those client meetings: Finding a replacement for yourself in your old job. You no longer have time to do the tech work you love and were good at, instead you are buried under a mountain of paperwork, meetings, and reports. By the way, you are now on straight salary and are on call 24/7.
Welcome to the Corporate Ladder!
I've generally received the least respect from the least intelligent people. They don't have intelligence, they don't recognise it, they don't respect it.
That's not to be confused with technical expertise. I've been respected by people who could whup my butt with their wizardly skills, and by people who didn't know a byte from a battery. But they recognised my qualifications and respected them, because they were qualified for their jobs, and knew that deserved respect.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Back before India became the IT department of The West, we were considered wizards and afforded appropriate respect. Now that there are far more humble people who live in a box willing to do the same work for a whole lot less and without attitude we're now an inconvenience. Face it.
I actually don't want to get any kind of personal respect when doing my job.
:P
I'd rather people saw me as the guy that fixes things, when things go wrong.
I want to be seen as capable, independant, strong, and resilient.
Which means, that I want to be respected for what I do. I want to come from a baseline of "what the hell is this guy on". To, hey it works. I can go back to my job.
Part of the reason, is that I don't actually want to "help people". I want to fix problems.
And I'll help people as far as letting them get back to what they're doing in the most efficient manner.
I've actually pissed people off sometimes, by my bluntness. But at the same time, I generally get along with anyone who's going to give me the space to do what has to be done. And I generally find people step out of my way, and let me in. And, even if momentarily, people are sometimes somewhat intimidated at me, I generally find that it means I get down to the roots of problems, whilst other people around me, are scattered.
Mind you, I'm pretty scattered too. I hold emotions back whilst working, and then release them as soon as I've accomplished what I'm doing.
Which means I switch in and out of "professional mode". And get people up on their feet, whilst things need to be done. And then can still be nice to people, when I'm not in the middle of doing something.
My main problem when dealing with other people, is that I'm really terrible with being overly aggressive when communicating with people that can take it. And even though I calm down, for people who can't take it. Sometimes, if they're watching, they can become a bit intimidated by my tendencies to stand up to "people of authority".
I've also got the high-paced geek trait, of seeming like I'm on amphetamines.
It's because I use intuition for logic. And when my intuition is running really fast, I'm seeming with possibilites and keep running through them at a rapid rate, and have to focus them on something so that I don't go shouting about the virtues of doing things properly.
But, hey, at the end of the day, people generally seem to respect me, for what I do. And just generally avoid me, if they're intimidated by me.
And that works for me. Although some people go passive aggressive if I'm working with them. And I'm not "supporting" them. But they generally just slip between the cracks.
Oh yeah, I'm a bit of an asshole when I work. I'm working on it
I believe the John Taylor Gatto, a big advocate of school reform and NY teacher of the year, talked about how all you really need to do to break through socio-economic and racial barriers is to learn how to fit in. If you can speak well, be courteous, and dress well no one will question whether you belong. He advocated in his book that those be among the main skills taught in schools.
It really is amazing how far things like making eye contact, standing straight, speaking clearly, shaking hands, holding the door, and wearing a suit will get you.
you're not respected.
Guess that lets out everybody on
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
i'm a helpdesk technician for the budget finance department of my school. and i've gotta say i've met a wide array of people.
most of the people i deal with are nice. they greet me when i come in. they don't give me a hard time when i give them bad news. and generally, i get more respect than i deserve.
however, there are a few users that really piss me off. they believe since i'm getting paid to troubleshoot, it's my obligation to help them and they're sorta the boss paying me to fix their computer. when our school rolls out new software, they complain like there's no tomorrow, saying "this is going to be very inconvenient for me. what am i suppose to do now? you mean i have to insert my password everytime now? this is very annoying. i thought the computer was suppose to make our life easier. and etc"
i don't ever get the feeling that we're the evil tech guy, but i really hate it when users underappreciate the work that we technicians do. it's not like i was the one who decided on the policy change to use a new more secure software. i'm just the middle guy that goes around and gets the job done and fixes problems.
but like i said, most users are generally nice and appreciative of my work, but there will always be those few that will get on your nerve if you work in this industry.
HD Trailers
This is nothing new. I'm a doctor, and hell, I get no respect and neither do my collegues. Not from the nurses, the staff, and sure as hell not the patients. Computer techs? Even less, if that's possible. Lawyers? Well, maybe a little because people are scared of them. We have a culture that shows no respect for anyone, least of all by profession.
you will be disappointed.
The only respect that matters is self-respect.
Being tall helps, too.
Alternately hit the gym. Ever since I put on 30 pounds of visible muscle people have been much more deferential to me, and you don't have to have good genes to look burly.
R.I.P. Rodney Dangerfield
I get tons of respect.
As a tech database geek, I was just one of thousands here in Seattle.
It's all context-sensitive.
You're either doing well - or you're doing good. It's better to be doing good, because money ain't all that useful IMHO.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I hear Rodney Dangerfield gets very little respect. I also hear that Aretha Franklin has to really put her foot down to get any.
Seriously... if you're not getting the respect you want, chances are that it's because of some larger ongoing interpersonal context that has been established.
It sounds silly, but when you present an idea to people, or do work for them, the respect and consideration they give to the idea or results is wholly dependent on their preexisting opinion of you (whether it is inaccurate or not). Even if the idea itself is great or you do outstanding work, if they don't like you, your ideas won't be considered and your work won't be respected.
Be honest with yourself and others and seek to clearly understand the interpersonal context people have with you. Then, change it by addressing it explicitly -- don't expect things like producing better results or offering better ideas to change anyone's mind, because it won't. Instead, work on things like being less critical or defensive.
Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
I do consulting and had a hole in my schedule. A local realty company called and said a machine was being attacked with pop ups after the girl tried to install a free screen saver program. I've been to this site only twice before in the last 3 years and I remember them rushing me out after 1 hr. They wanted the minimum and wanted me out. I see it right away, this machine is infested so bad with spyware that it really needs to be formatted and reinstalled.
I know they won't want to pay for the time to back it up, setup the os, programs, etc, and restore the data and get everything working the way the user was familiar with. So I ran all the latest tools and after a reboot, it was done. It would lock up prior to the login screen but after the gui had been initialized.
It was 5pm and the end of the day, so I took it back to my shop with already an 1hr and half in just from running Adaware, spybot, and the MS Antispyware. Regardless of what I do from here, they are still expected to pay me by the hour.
I tell them about reinstalling and it's definetaly out of the picture. So I run a repair and get it back up. I run all the tools again, throwing in a couple more for safe measure. After the repair, a lot of programs are missing from the registry and need to be reinstalled. They have most of the cd's back at their office.
So I deliver it. No user, no manager, just an owner who has no idea what's going on. I get it up and running and go to him to collect a check.
His first comment was, "So you charge $75 an hour?"
I didn't like his tone, so I corrected him, "No, it's $79 an hour."
He then says, "Isn't PC Tech work like $10 to $20 an hour?" And he says it like a complete a$$h0le. I mean, I wanted to hit him.
So I replied, "No, I make more than that an hour" with an attitude.
He replys with "If I'd have known it would cost this much to repair a computer, I'd just call Dell and get another one for a nickel."
I just shrugged at him and asked him for a check again.
I could care less if this prick ever calls my work to schedule another appointment. His total bill came out to around $200. Here's a guy that's selling million dollar homes and walking off with a commission and gives me crap about a $200 computer repair bill.
I've got other customers that are more than willing to pay me upwards of $99 an hour without any crap. I told my scheduler not to bother sending me out there again.
On Tuesday/Wednesday I retired a NT4 Server and installed a handfull of new workstations. Total bill with parts and labor was like $15,000 and they were offering to buy me lunch etc. I don't demand respect, but I do expect to be treated like a human being.
/.
This is spot on, but...when was the last time management outsourced management?
Because your boss golfs with the boss of the company down the street, and THEY just outsourced their IT department to some third world nation, to a guy who lives in a mud hut, shits in a rice paddy and timeshares a lightbulb, and they're saving millions!
The object of outsourcing is not to save money, it is to make IT or the outsourced positions look as inept and inefficent as rest of the business. Middle management is as efficent as a monkey humping a football in most cases.
People you frighten are not going to respect you.
I think that a lot of companies treat their programmers like a necessary evil. These aren't companies that I would advocate working for, but if you have a distinct "executive class" that comprises more than 10% of your office, then "others," then "geeks," you're probably in a job where you're underappreciated.
To be clear by what I mean. I've been to a job site where we called the lab the "playpen." All of the programmers shared a single, wrap-around, cubicle-desk. Everyone else (everyone, secretaries, interns, everyone...) got private offices. This was sold off as a sort of "collaborative work area." Perhaps the idea was liked in fruition, but people coming in from my company who "got it", invariably, called it the "playpen."
dude... there's a pretty clear line between being a 'nice guy' and being a 'goddamn fool'. I think you crossed WAY over into the fool zone.
One piece of advice for budding consultants - sometimes NO WORK is better than BAD WORK. You were only getting $30 an hour from these jerks. Forget it! For crying out loud, you can get more than that by selling BLOOD.
One consulting book I read said quite clearly that you should ditch 10% of your clients every year. Dont be rude - you should certainly find a replacement. But just be aware that there are lots of people who will push you as far as you let them... and then after you've speak up, they'll just ditch you for somebody with even less of a spine. Forget them. You dont want them for clients.
One thing a colleague from Russia remarked on was how weird it seemed to him that in the U.S, being a true scientist (research labs, etc) was very ill regarded. It does seem true, even here in the Bay Area/Silicon Valley, you can have a PhD in the pure sciences, and the pay isn't that good.
So being a computer tech is not great, but it could be worse.
i say i am techy, hear me dial-up!
Even in pain you can sleep, but if you inflict pain, you cannot sleep.
without the moolah to back it up?
- Krusty the Clown
I kinda feel the same way. Give me half the CEO's money, and you can keep your phoney respect.
.... now that I'm looking for work.
I'm still pretty surprised that even after second interviews people aren't asking for references.. I have a pretty large number (over a dozen, with permission of course) of folks in a range of positions and areas (not just tech).
Granted, the last hellhole I suffered in was far worse. The place was run like a fucking gulag, and while I'm no fan of cashing in 401ks to make rent, I would rather be doing that and dodging credit card callers than trying not to kick certain people down certain flights of stairs.
And my favorite job would still be there, and me thriving in it, if it weren't for some fucking Arab terrorists. All the sponsors and advertisers for the project pulled out within a week of 9/11. Didn't help that our building was 6 blocks away.
In much the same way Warner Brothers characters would begin to resemble food products when trapped on a desert island, The Ax is beginning to look like a HOWTO...
I wouldn't respect anyone who came in with those words about themselves. Dude, the world "out there" is not slashdot. Normal people don't give a shit about your self-considered "geekiness" -- it makes you look like an immature dork. If you can't see this, at least you now know your first obstacle to enlightenment.
Loosens necktie...
Every time I go to the store, they give me the shopping cart with square wheels.
I was an ugly kid. When I was born, the doctor took one look at me and slapped my mother.
R.I.P. Rodney Dangerfield
If they work, why bother having the tech guy around?
Let's adapt that logic elsewhere:
"Why should I have to pay for the fire department? My house isn't burning!"
You got fired and updated the time span of your last job?
You got promoted and filled in a new job title?
You added "can come in and pick up the hardware and the code" to your resume?
You added "huge bonuses and stock options" to your ambitions/long term career goals??
Please, enlighten us!
Do you need to have your diapers changed?
I don't know if it's better or worse, but I was never appreciated to begin with. I work for the IT department at the college I'm attending, and while my fellow students for the most part aren't like this, the faculty is just awful. I'm sure being a woman doesn't help...don't get me wrong, I'm not some kind of crazy feminist, but I've gotten more than one "YOU'RE the technician? O.o" And the way they treat my boss, who is an absolute genius in computers as well as in general, is just despicable. Where's the love?
10 FILL MUG WITH COFFEE
20 DRINK COFFEE
30 GOTO 10
What's funny is that you get a lot more respect if you have a Dr in front of your name, even if you are doing exactly the same job and doing it the same way as you would if you hadn't taken a few extra years goofing off and getting an extra piece of paper...
The age old adage, "Familarity breeds contempt" seems to work its way into the picture, whether its intentional or not. It's just part of human nature. Most of the time, I become friends with those that end up hiring me. I don't mind this, but it tends to lessen the emphasis on formality, and as a result, the interaction can get a little casual. This alone, I think, might have at least some impact on the issue of respect. Another thing I've noticed...when you extend this to include free time here and there (at your option), it doesn't seem to help matters. Businesses like to save money, but they also need to keep abreast of the real cost associated with the support that's being provided.
Really? And I suppose that we should tell women, blacks and people in other marginalized groups as well that the key to transcending problems such as unequal employment opportunities is "competence and confidence." Of course, I don't mean to say that the situation of computer technicians is overly similar to the conditions caused by other forms of social stratification in society. But I would like to suggest that with capitalism as it exists today, i.e., as a system which has the "ethic" of profit as a guide to behavior of those in business, we're not going to see a significant change in the treatment of people who offer services which are essential, but not mandatory in order to increase the profit margin for the "elites" in the industry. Face it, in business logic in the contemporary world, "technies" are a necessary evil. They always have been, and always will be, bar structural changes in society itself. I have a feeling that this hasn't worsened significantly since the economy took a downturn, but you might have come to a personal "epiphany" which led you to see something which has been going on as long as our current system has functioned as it does now.
Because a good business manager would never let a situation devolve the way this one did.
Many geeks are good managers. But many are not. It's just a different skill set to run a business and make money at it consistently, than it is to code, work on hardware, etc. You can be good at both, but being good at one does not necessarily require you to be good at the other.
Being spectacular at a specific geek skill like programming, network admin, security, etc. makes you valuable to a business. But without good management, there is no business--whether or not the engineering skills are there. That's why managers make more than engineers in a lot of cases.
Everyone gets more respect than me.
at my company. They think they are gods for getting us clients and we should worship them. But the reason they got the clients is because they promised them impossible deadlines and throw the shit to us to finish. Naturally, there are bugs when we release the software to the clients because there wasn't enought time to develop and/or test. But the sales guys don't give a shit because they already got their commission and are moving on to selling their next load of bullshit to potential clients. Every single client that they've dealt with has ended up with lowered expectations and frustations (at IT!) because their software did not work like the sales group promised. Fuck, if I wasn't such a whore for the money, I'd already have quit.
I have been a technician for 19 years and have learned that the most important part of earning respect is in making sure your client knows how hard you are working for them.
:) Customers love us. An outgoing communications manager for a 911 dispatch center recently introduced me to his replacement as "the guy who saves your ass".
This dawned on me one day as a client mentioned that one of my techs did a fantastic job repairing a piece of equipment. I had been riding this guy for weeks because he was not doing basic repair stuff like vacuuming it out. He just kept ordering parts and had his head inside the machine 3-4 hours a day. What the lady that owned the machine cared about was his doggedness about coming in every day and working on it. Muttering about the insanity of the manufacturer, sweating, cursing under his breath etc. He really looked like he was doing his best. That is the key.
I work with radio equipment, 911 dispatch type stuff, and one day got called in on a nasty interference problem. I took a look at the environment and reviewed the complaints and because I knew intimatly the environment, I came up with a solution that took 10 minutes and solved the problem. I could have easily spent several days chasing the problem had I not had so much experience in the area. After fixing the problem and feeling quite exhuberant about such a subtle solution (I moved an antenna a mere 3 feet which blocked interference coming from 2 miles away) I realized that the manager who called me would not understand what I did and would not appreciate it. Obviously since I fixed it in 10 minutes it must have been easy and he was not at all happy that he had to pay for a 1 hour service call, when I had only been there 30 or so minutes.
Lesson learned.
I have never dogged it on a service call but I have sent much less experienced techs on calls I knew would take a long time if they didn't know exactly what was up
You get no respect when you walk in and punch a few buttons and the problem goes away. You get respect when you pull the guys ass out of the fire just as he is falling in.
Maybe you get less respect now because "business" people generically got sick of the vast promises that "IT" made and never delivered (or maybe it was just that we never made any promises and never delivered anything either). I know this is a vast generalisation, but having moved out of IT temporarily I now see how frustrating "you" can be....
"Let me start by saying that, odds are, you get the respect you deserve."
welcome to our planet! you have a lot to learn but at least you're trying!
no on this planet you don't get the respect you deserve or earn except as a special case...
some people call me cynical, but everyone calls me realistic.
-pyrrho
Need I say more?
What we have here is a model of authority that is culturally implanted in each of us.
That's why I wear black SWAT BDU's, combat boots, and mirror sunglasses to work.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
I've heard it said more then once in my own organization--and (condsidering what they ask of us) it hurts. Being viewed as the 'fat to be trimmed' from the budget is exactly the case every year. 'Are they really working?'... 'How do you know they are working?' [Look at all my tickets and multiply that by two, ye most highly exonerated & most noble PHB!]
So what happens? We have fewer field techs then ever before and we are expected to do more... much, much more. (The company is growing massively, but do we see the IT dept. expanding, uh... NO!)
I'm not just talking about expanding our regular tech duties: we supervise general contractors (and report back to the Real Estate department) on remodels and new developments. We are now 'Asset Protection', in charge of all aspects of the security systems. We're viewed as the 'eyes & ears' of the company [for the home office], whatever that is supposed to mean. The list goes on & on, but I won't bore you...
The simple fact (as it appears to me) is that if all the field techs walked out at the same time the company would probably... survive--but they would hurt very, very badly....
If the network team walked... they would simply die on the vine. No question.
This serious?
Author needs to get a little therapy. First, who really gives a *&^%$, they will be showin' props next time they can't connect to the exchange server.
Second, why does it matter? Man, if this is a major issue in your life...well, you got issues, you just aren't aware of them.
In reality, we are the glorified auto mechanics of our day. My grandfather (a rather accomplished MD) used to enjoy telling us about the respect that the auto mechanic would recieve.
He was the "god" the poor, self-image deprived techie author is realizing he is. Truth be told, there isn't a whole lot to this whole 'puter gig. A little work and dedication, just like McDonalds or any other job. The more common place the technology becomes and the more those unrespectful slobs become with it, the more your illusion erodes away and they realize that they were being pretty silly in the first place for treating you like a...whatever.
Ignore the man behind the current. He does not concern you.
I am in awe of heavy crane operators. Debugging some bonehead Jr programmer's SQL proc is child's play compared to that. But I don't get down on my knees when they walk in the door. I don't even really get what the author wants.
If you are missing the respect you somehow think you deserve, there are only two alternatives...
1. Do something to earn that respect.
2. Get a new gig. I don't think you were drawn to this one for alturistic reasons.
My experience has been I get exactly the amount of respect I deserve. Regardless of whether I was working in QA, or am now the fancy smanshy senior technical something-or-other. Don't even really know what title they gave me, it is so rediculous. I just do my job. Do it beyond expectation and have never felt once that I wasn't getting my due.
Has Jon Katz returned to write Geeks 2!?!
In America, you spam computers In Soviet Russia, computers spam you!
Tech is the new McDonalds. Schools are pushing out any tech program they think will sell (you can get a BS in anything 'hot' now) and they will churn out candidates like the one you describe. People are wise to the situation. It used to be techies were known to have a strong understanding of their field, now anyone can get a tech job. Thus the percieved lack of respect. Not to mention the false assumptions like "My 15 year old can do this!" Heh, I've seen a small corporate network go to a guy's kid and he screwed it up bad. Regardless, computers and IS are not mysterious things anymore. Perhaps its not McDonalds yet, but for a good part of the industry its like being a mechanic or "lower."
For good or bad. The creme will always rise to the top, just like in any industry. Looks like the guy in article needs to learn how to sell himself insead of assuming people will magically understand how good he is.
At my school, from my family and friends. I get alot of support when it comes to respect. I'm respected very much when it comes to computers. I had respect somewhat at my last school. But back in elementary school, I didn't get much respect. Then again, it was around 95 and computers in schools were becoming bigger fads so geeks like me weren't excepted. It also didn't help that I had Aspberger's syndrome, so I looked like a mental case to most people.
In America, you spam computers In Soviet Russia, computers spam you!
One can exercise daily, go to church, floss daily, and use Firefox, among many many other activities in any single week.
After working 35 years in the IT business as first a Computer Manufacture's CE, then internal maintenance for a Fortune 500 company and finally, since I retired last year, Chief Cook and Bottle Washer of my own company, I can relate to a lot of the comments posted here. As one Co-Tech stated years ago: " What is so difficult about Computer Maintenance? You just replace parts until it starts working again!!" Or as one of my Genius customers insisted that I bring the Boot Module for a machine that would not Boot! The biggest difference between the typical Corporate User and the home user is: All Corporate Users are Computer Experts until something breaks, then you as the repair unit should know in 5 milliseconds exactly what is wrong and have it running before you take your second breath. It also helps to solve the problem by phoning your manager and bitch him out. The typical home user usually looks at the home computer in the same class as a vacuum cleaner or dishwasher. All they want to know is how long will it take to fix it and how much. I keep getting asked for the magic button on the desktop you can click on and fix all the problems or the magic disk you can insert and fix everything. Respect.........not hardly. It is your fault that they surfed all those X rated sites, downloaded MP3 and filled their machines so full of MalWare they will barely boot. You are viewed with a suspicious eye. Take the money and run!!!
"Who's the educator here?"
"Why did you ever go into computers? I can't stand them."
"I don't expect you to know that."
Oh, and we're fungible.
DT
Is this thing on? Hello?
Your all wet. Go someplace else where you are walking on water again.
Computer techs and Human resources have a lot in common. Neither get their due respect. Both are essential job functions that the CEO's view as a nuisense. Both are their own "islands" inside a company. HR people mainly hang out with HR people only and the same with computer techs. Also, both are dominated by a single sex.
The same could be said for all of the other professionals that aren't in the companies core business. For example, lawyers, accountants, and technical writers.
The reason why computer techs aren't respected, is because they don't work at a company whose sole purpose is computer support. If you don't work in a company's core business, you are overhead.
In my I.T. career, I have found that people will either treat you as Hero or Villain. The problem is that both of these are skewed perspectives that stem from a much bigger problem: You have chosen to stand between a person (the user) and their psychosis (a fear of the unknown). It wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the greedy companies trying to make technology sexy at any cost. This creates a perceived need for the technology, the "fax effect" tipping point of which, causes everyone else to be dragged kicking and screaming into the Information Age, which brings us here.
This kind of field attracts people with an infinite learning-curve pain threshold. We, the tech geeks, are *numb* to it. We will happily reboot the machine for the 50th time in a row to isolate the cause of the problem to identify the solution with the least long-term negative impact on performance, security, or whatever else the system was designed for. Not so for your joe sixpacks and soccer moms.
I like to think of us tech geeks as digital pushers with the users as junkies. Not all addictions are equally bad... However, if you lose perspective, you will fall into the trap of enjoying watching the rapture of your junkies a little too much to realize you're in a locked room with them and you just gave them the last bit of tech crack you have... Not a pretty sight.
My advice: Don't let people tell you how to do your job. You're the expert. Make them take ownership of their issues. Never assume someone is too stupid to figure it out themselves. Never make promises to deliver by a deadline unless forced to at gun point. You can't give an estimate on how long it will take to fix until you know what *might* be the fix. It takes time to research the fix and even then it might not fix it. Don't try to be a Superman. You're not. You don't wear a cape and can't fly. It's better to retain your power and watch your ass as best you can. OWN EVERYTHING YOU TOUCH. What I mean is this: read every email, know every password, be able to get back in if they lock you out. This isn't wrong. You're SUPPOSED to be the most trusted person at the company. Why not? I.T. is the *lifeblood* of any company. Any fool that messes with the cook deserves what they get.
... for talking about the SDM outside the SDM.
i personally recieved great respect from end users (teachers, as it was a school district)... the people i was helping. It was the administration that was the problem. Asshole principals who cant tolerate something (the computers) not being under their direct jurisdiction, preferring to treat technicians more like students than co-workers. To make matters worse our tech director knew nothing about technology, and wouldnt listen to technicians, he listened to those same principals... as we were beneathe him i guess. "We are gonna buy 200 $600 complete dell systems" technicians: "uhhh those systems seem pretty flawed and vunerable to blah blah"... next thing we know we need to devote a room as a computer graveyard for parts... heh. To save this post from being completely tangential ill say, i believe end users were very respectful, understanding the useful nature of a tech staff... Those higher up in administration however tended to be fearful of those with authority or knowledge (i assume this is probably pretty common in a buearocracy though).
Mike
I heart the RIAA & MPAA, im sure its mutual...
This is when you say you would love to help them, that your hourly rate is now $105/hour, and that you require a deposit of $1000 which at that point you will then begin work. Also charge for travel time plus milage. They either want you to fix the shit and the down time isn't worth it, or they don't want to fix it and can go find some other sucker.
There always seems to be no shortage of some morons who think that their kid/nephew/brother or some other halfwit can fix stuff for them really cheap. You don't want them as customers.
If you are from Harvard, please stop reading.
Men, more than women, crave respect, esp. from their significant others and on the job. This question is perseptive in many ways. Most people don't put their finger on what the problem is. Why they are upset when their wife nags them, etc.
That's not to say women don't want respect, but men just need more of it.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
http://www.jobsearch.gov.au/JobExplorer/
Shows a whole bunch of careers, and has ratings for them. Achievement, working conditions, recognition, rated on a 1-10 scale. You can find out stimulatin' stuff, like how boilermakers have average working conditions, whilst how lawyers find themselves in ethically challenging situations all the time...
Glibness aside, it's a really good way of comparing IT against all the other jobs out there that you could be doing, like childcare, or accountants, or being in the military. IT actually stacks up pretty well.
That's a true story. I was living in NYC at the time (early 90's) and a bunch of NYU students did tear up a significant portion of several streets just north of the Village. I remember after a week of seeing the traffic wondering when the road dept. was going to fix it. As a side benefit - many people used those streets as an pedestrian zone and it was fun hanging out in the middle of the streets.
..........FULL STOP.
I think that as a culture we are being stingier with our respect across the board. It is becoming more and more of a norm to actively display distaste for someone who has a desired skill or ability or experience of any kind.
chick-in-charge at Blue Blood
I think us technical people need our own website like Customers suck to post all our stupid customer stories, like this one.
If you are pissed about your monetary situation, learn to play winning poker. There's nothing more gratifying than taking a chunk of your boss's salary every Friday night. I would suggest the poker bible (Doyle Brunson's Super System) as a start.
"No beer until you finish your tequila!" -Leela's Dad
So it shall be written. So it shall be done.
Dude, hate to break it to you, but you are bending way over and shouting "I love it!"... They are sweet talking you into doing work for them, at below the rate that they have already proven willing to pay. You do NOT need these people's approval. Get smart. Charge then $195 and hour and require a $5000 deposit before doing any further work.
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
It's about fear. I respect my neighbor. I fear my boss. If you want respect from your clients, treat them like shit; they'll be secretly grateful. Of course, you might have to actually deliver at some point.
No offense intended, but as a technician you deserve and will receive about the same level of respect as the guy who fixes my car.
Yeah, you know about cars. Good for you. Fix my car now.
Just because you're a computer technician doesn't make you better than all the other people who fix things for a living.
I've saved my company easily $200,000 in the past year by preventing IT disasters. (It's my first year here, and we're a small company -- that's big money.) Yet what impresses the owner about me? Him and the accountant were going over numbers in Quickbooks, and every time they hit the tab button it would switch windows. "It's the control key and it's stuck" I tell them as I thwack the keyboard and fix the problem. And now I'm the big hero, the IT genius. The other stuff? He doesn't realize it's hard.
As far as respect? The marketing idiot treats me like a child. The janitor calls me "Patron." It's all about perspective, and not giving a shit helps.
then kill yourself. no, really, i mean it.
I have been on both ends of the tech/user relationship--these days as the user, and I have to say that by and large the amount of respect one gets depends on the people themselves, not on what role they play in an organisation.
One thing to remember--IT departments are essential to support the operation of a business, but they almost never directly contribute to the core function of a business. Basically, they ARE a "necessary evil", to put it plainly, in some sense like the janitors who keep the office clean and the lawyers to draw up the contracts.
Sysadmins, janitors, lawyers, etc do not make wigits for the MegaWigit corporation, or deliver parcels for UPS or perform surgery in the hospital for example. Yes, an organisation would fall apart without people to do their work, but since they do not perform functions directly related to the business there is a little extra effort required to earn and maintain respect and recognition. It isn't just because you are "a geek".
There is a good reason why IT people (and other support services staff) in some cases lose respect--it's because they either aren't doing the job right or they lack people skills. When I try to get a defective memory module replaced in my notebook through proper corporate channels and it has to pass through three different cities over the course of almost two weeks before I get it then I lose a little respect for the IT department--especially when they send the wrong type of memory. If I respectfully voice my concerns and they respond in kind and learn from the experience they regain my respect.
However, when IT continually sends parts and machines that do not match our requests, and grumble that we are circumventing their policies and procedures by just buying parts from the local shop (out of frustration) then you lose even more respect. Here's another tip: if a user sends his machine in to get repairied and you are going to re-image it...TELL THE PERSON so they can at least make an effort to back up! Not all users understand how things work in IT and a little common courtesy is in order.
As I said I've been on both sides, and I know users seem to do some pretty silly things to their PCs, but you have to hold your frustration in check, just as the user should with IT support.
Try to see things in the user's eyes--their experiences with IT is typically pretty abysmal since PCs--especially windows ones--are far from reliable. Most IT projects are also late and go through growing pains during implementation.Also, the majority of the time people talk to IT is when something is wrong. If you work at honing people skills and can see the situation from the other person's eyes you'll command all the respect you want, regardless of what you do for a living.
Respect? Nope, I work in software development and how respectful is it that a project comes along with an arbitrary (arbitrary from the development perspective that is) deadline then as the project comes to a close people are scrambling and forced to work extra hours to get things done and I don't get compensated at all for a single hour I work over 40 in a week...
Just because I'm salaried shouldn't mean I deserve to have that abused.
So long as that gets abused, there is no way you could convince me that folks in the tech field are respected.
Oh and another thing I love... said project is expected to make the company a lot of money. However, is there a monetary reward for the folks who worked on the project? Nope. *sarcasm alert* I just love working in the computer field. *sarcasm alert*
Oops, how did this get here?
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
As a Canadian, I've had some very wierd experiences regarding people's reactions to clothing and apperance while in the U.S.
On a trip to L.A., I went on one of those movie studio tours. I was wearing a new pair of long pants and a collared shirt, which to me seemed fairly casual. As the tour went on, I got a strange feeling that the tour guides were especially aware of me, and trying very hard to impress me with how much fun everyone was having. It was creeping me out, frankly, and I was starting to wonder if I had gotten too much sun or something.
The tour goes on, and we're in one of those trams that take you through the outdoor movie sets, when the tour guide says something like "... and there's Joe Smith, a rising star executive at Paramount, and VP of some very important department...", and he was wearing the exact same clothing I was right down to the same color belt and shoes. Apparently, the guide assumed I was an executroid doing some kind of quality control check on the tour.
Two days later, we decide to visit an art museum. I figured, based on the previous experience, that people are more casual in California, so I wear a golf shirt, a crisp new pair of shorts, white socks and running shoes. The people working there treat me like I was some kind of hood, they didn't turn their back on me for a minute. I might as well have been wearing a sign saying "I'm here to steal or destroy anything I can get my hands on".
On another vacation, I made the mistake of wearing nice clothes for the airline flight and was grilled by the customs officer like you wouldn't believe, because he thought I was really entering the country for a job interview (I wasn't).
Visiting Boston on a different trip, wearing my usual casual clothes, I seemed to fit in, but for the few days I was wearing a suit and tie, I couldn't believe the reaction I was getting. It was like they were looking at Donald Trump or something. I've never gotten that kind of reaction in Canada just for wearing a suit.
To me, it's as if the United States has a very strict dress code that goes something like this:
1) Ratty shorts, and an Ozzy Ozborne T-shirt - I'm on vacation.
2) Jeans - It's the weekend.
3) Slacks and a collared shirt - I'm at work.
4) A suit and tie - I'm on my way to collect my Nobel prize, and meet the King of Sweden.
If you break this code it really does seem to upset people. Often, it's as if they are completely unable to override your appearance, and relate to you based on your actual conduct. I've never gotten that kind of vibe from people that come from any other part of the world - just the U.S. It makes me wonder sometimes, if the U.S. is a much more stratified society than it is made out to be.
(This isn't meant as a troll, America bashing, or a criticism - just an observation).
No respect || Diminishing respect
True (but AC posted) story:
Having an IT job (servers & networking) would
be inclined to put such a person into the "geek"
catagory. But every time there is a RIF, it is
the "geeks" that get the chop, rarely the middle
managers, and never the top echelon (barring
absolute incompetence, which buys them a golden
parachute). As a "geek", you can be replaced in
your job by (1) off-shore outsourcing, (2) on-
shore outsourcing (H1-B visas), or by M&A (merger
and accuisition). If you are very fortunate,
you will find that your department has been sold
off to a contracting company (the first of many)
and your 401K assets seen as an opportunity for
your new company to create a Bangalore division.
Coincidentally, the only investments your new
company has available is (a) a bond fund, or (b)
overseas "emerging technologies" development.
If you are fairly high up in the "food chain",
you will be asked at some point to train your
replacement (here on L1-A or H1-B visa) prior
to you're being RIFed. Suddenly, you discover
that your 20 years experience is more than any
employer is willing to pay for, and you are now
too damn old for that "junior" position, too old
to go back to school full time, and too old for
that entry-level sales position at the mall.
Worst still, the only people still hiring
"English-as-a-first-language geeks" is a 3 letter
government agency which requires (Catch-22 here)
a pre-existing top secret security clearance AND
6 years prior military service AND an MSCE cert
with 2 years specialized training (because they
adopted THE least secure OS around).
Welcome to 21st century America! (Would you like
to super-size that order?)
I'm a nuts-and-bolts guy, I suppose ... I'm a network&systems engineer with 20 yrs+ at this; I'm not a coder and don't pretend to be. I design and build complex networks and administer them. For years I've been something between "guru" and "magician"; I've never asked for either. I just like building and maintaining a nice sandbox that folks can work and play in, and I'm good at it. In the last couple of years, though, like the original poster, I've been, in organisational terms, reclassified. These days, I'm somewhere between mechanic and plumber. The payscale has gone in the toilet and so has the organisational recognition. I'm necessary, but not especially sexy these days. If this goes on, I expect to be downgraded to "grease monkey" almost any day, and eventually to "cable guy". So it goes.
Irish by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.
You do your job right, to the standards of best practices, professionally. Then you can have self respect. That others respect you may be a good thing. You must set boundaries, but make them flexible. Remember to pick your own charities and know who they are. Otherwise charities will spring up from no where, and your life discontinues being your own. It's to your own self to be true first. Be straight with your self, and others can be straight with you. Respect is spawned from such truthfulness. As Vonnegut might say, we're all meat humans (exception given to sociopaths, who are IMHO, another species).
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Learn how to carry yourself. These are some of the things I do:
- learn the english language,
(You might think you know it, but the reality is you probably don't. Most of the computer people I meet have a poor command of both the written and spoken word. Work to improve that and you will come off better to your management. Take a writing class or two and make sure you can articulate your ideas in an organized way while being easy to read at the same time. Clearly there is an art to this, but the common elements can be learned by anyone. Every report, memo, presentation, etc... will benefit from this effort.)
- wear appropriate clothes,
(Nobody likes to do this, but if you are looking for a bit more respect than you are currently getting, a little spit 'n polish will go a long way. Being the techie admin type is a little tough in this regard. You don't want to dress up to management level, but don't want to dress down too low either. The upper middle is where you want to be. Just high enough that management will actually take you seriously, but not so high as to alienate your users and fellow techs.)
- work hard on your basic people skills,
(When you are working with other people, there are common elements that differentiate those that others respect and everybody else. Do some reading, attend a class or seminar aimed at management types and pay close attention to the people that get respect during meetings, etc... Listening, speaking clearly and at the right vocabulary level are two of the most important parts of this. Avoid slang terms and off color language when working with management types. In your techie office, do and say what you want, but always keep an eye toward making sure your communication is complete, accurate and not too verobse. Stay on topic, don't think outloud, and listen.
Everybody wants to get their job done. Be willing to consider those you are working for your customer. Treat them like a business venture. Investments in time and effort, placed well for best effect, will pay off in terms of respect, or at the very least, they will owe you enough to be on your side most of the time.
Try to distance yourself from the office politics. Down that path be dragons!)
- build basic competency.
(Be on time, spell things right, don't make bonehead errors, be able to answer the phones, etc... Work as hard as you can to make the easy stuff really easy and nail it every day. When errors are made on the hard stuff, their effect on you will then be diminished because you are otherwise a solid person.)
Where work is concerned:
- put out when it really matters,
(This ones a biggie. Most days it's the same old same old, but every once in a while something comes up that really matters to the management team. Do your level best to make it happen and let them know you are doing so. Pulling a weekend or all-nighter is a personal sacrifice that is often very appreciated, if it's not done with an attitude. They will owe for that, if you let them and a few strategic others know what's going on. These things done right, will cultivate loyalty and respect. Done poorly, with attitude, simply are a waste of your valuable time.)
- listen,
(I can't say this enough. Be sure to take notes always. You may think you remember everything, but you probably don't. This activity, by the way, also commands respect in and of itself because others will see you are serious.)
- underpromise and overdeliver,
(This one is about managing expectations. The first solution is not always the best one. Don't be afraid to ask questions or get clarification on subtle points. It is exactly these points that will differentiate your work from that of others. Oh, almost forgot an important one. Never get anything done in 5 minutes. Nevermind that it takes only a couple. This is a basic tool for learning how to underpromise and overdeliver. If it will actually take two minutes, tell them 2
Blogging because I can...
Over the past 3 years I've turned my IT department from an ad-hoc, "IT knows what's going on" mess to a well structured, formalized department.
Average resolution time has dropped from 3 days to 4 hours, uptime has risen from 91% to 97%, infrastructure has grown from 100 PC to over 700 (with only one extra technician) but....
I still regularly hear "This is bullcrap" in reference to helpdesk softare, not upgrading someones GX 270 to a GX 280 while we still have pentium 66Mhz machines, not allowing users to install webshots/gator/their favourite search tool... Cool Web Search, etc...
Is it truly that difficult to understand that much like the engineering department, we strive to perfect our systems and prevent/mitigate downtime?
IT is being treated as a trivial service until process operators can't pull data from the historian or users can't run predictive modelling apps and simulations.
But none the less, it's always appropriate to call me on my personal cell phone at 4am Sunday in the middle of my 4 week tour of Europe to tell me that you know I'm on vacation but cannot print and need it resolved immediately for reason(s) XYZ.
Heaven forbid I should ever take a day off (Saturday and Sunday included!)
The fundamental difference between stack and heap is how they grow.
The program stack is just that: A stack of data. For each new subroutine call, storage needed by that subroutine is allocated ("pushed") on the top of the stack. When the subroutine returns, the the storage is released ("popped"). In every system I know of, stack is allocated automatically (typically using local variable declarations).
Heap allocation can be random. Programs allocate heap when they need it and release it when they are done, in any order they wish. In classic systems like C and Pascal, heap management needs to be done by the programmer. You have to malloc() and free() manually, for example. In systems like Java or Python, you just create new objects, and the system garbage-collects them away for you.
Typically, the stack is allocated starting from low memory (address 0 or some other base) and grows up, while the heap is allocated starting at high memory (top of memory or top of virtual segment) and grows down. If the two meet (stack/heap collision), you've run out of memory (or address space) and are very hosed.
You generally have a stack and a heap even on single-task, non-memory-managed microsystems, such as MS-DOS. There's no sharing of the heap between processes, but you still have a stack and a heap.
On many (most?) Unix systems: As stack and heap grow, the process requests memory from the kernel when needed to grow either stack or heap, and the kernel allocates memory from the free pool to satisfy that request. However, there is no mechanism for the process to return storage to the kernel free pool.
On Windoze, I believe the heap is dynamic amoung all processes, as you describe.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Competence and confidence are important, agreed. But they should be natural things that flow from you because want to do a good job. If respect is given, fine. If not, you're competent and confident enough to get a job somewhere where they do appreciate what you bring or start your own business. But living in the real world, you at least accept the possibility that some people will never understand what you do and treat you that way.
Anyway, that's my attitude towards life. While I agree with many of the individual parts of your post, the sum smacks a little too much of "Ways to Act to Get People to Like You". That leads to an unfulfilling life, IMO.
If someone doesn't give you respect and you've honestly done nothing wrong, f*ck 'em I say.
Respect is earned, you idiot and it's kind of hard to come by being a self proclaimed network god that probably does nothing but reset passwords and help nimrods recover their accidentally deleted files.
Not getting enough respect....what a douche bag.
I get no respect at all /rimshot
Get your Unix fortune now!
It's all in your mind.
You know, I think Americans care way more about respect --- or at least authority than us Aussies do. I don't think the managers here in Australia are any less competent than the managers in the US, but let me tell you, nobody gives anyone who even *looks* like they are in a position of authority much respect round here. If I see a young guy in a suit, I just think "photocopy jockey in a law firm", pat down my t-shirt and laugh. I have never seen one in a bank, because frankly, actually going to banks is something they did in old movies. If you want me to move off the couch (or off the tennis court!) then you'll need something better than a suit to make me do it. One does need to command respect, but authority is not a guarantee. In fact, the few people in authority who I do respect, I respect all the more for managing to maintain integrity and competence in such a negative environment.
http://melbournephilosophy.com/
where R is respect and B is the number of faults (regardless of it being your fault or not).
In the not too distant future, next Sunday A.D.
Well, it was time you stopped feeling like God. I think so called "geeks" have been hiding the simplicity of their jobs to their customers long enough now.
It's just a job. Get over it.
Don't get me wrong, I like my job as a programmer, but I want to be thanked for the REAL accomplishments, not for just entering a room.
But many places are full of brown nosing fools. In that case there will be one top brown nose (often a 'family member'). If anyone chooses to stay in such a toxic environment it should only be to fuck with the top person, collecting a salary in the mean time and putting as many of his (the top idiot) assets into you pocket as you can.
I believe it's a correlary to the peter principle. Once someone reaches their level of incompetence they then proceed to sorround themselves with still more incompetent people (so they look better in comparison). Run this way for the better part of century without major housecleaning and you have the Bell companys.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Let them hate us so long as they fear us.
I work in a technical environment. Physicists, engineers, and support staff. Techies are part of the latter, as are engineers, for the most part.
Many of us, by this time, have done our tour of duty being techies. We have a fairly developed knowledge of computers, their inner workings, how to use software, secure a system, administer, program, & whatnot. We have found our own way of working with computers. But our control over our "personal" computers is forcibly given to techies who have their own preferences for how we work with our computers. They want control, we want control; high conflict potential. I look suspiciously at the techie & he looks suspiciously at me.
[I've never seen a techie so beside himself as when he had to seek me out to log onto my* computer.
(*It doesn't actually belong to me, and hence why I am not justified for, but only satisfied with, my misbehavior.)]
It's good to be respected, but respect does not make a working society. We need more democracy. A person has no use for respect, when that person is laid off because of economic strategies. In that case, the society does not really respect that person: from one point, society says to the person 'congrats, you are good', but from the other side it says 'you are too expensive' or 'we have earned enough money, we no longer require your services'.
More democracy means less people left in their fate, less people being victims of others with power in their hands. More democracy means less crime, more education, equal rights, less superstition, more transparency to where the vast amounts of money changing hands every day go.
Of course, this post may even be considered a view of an anarchist, or even a terrorist. These words would not have been told 20 or 30 years ago, simply because there was no need to: most people were thinking along these lines. But today...it's a totally different situation: people just want their way, without any consideration about others.
This post may seem off-topic, but it is not: respect for an IT person is directly related to respect for the individual, which is, in turn, directly related to democratic principles and how much civilized our society is. In a world that even 'civilized' societies are actually jungles in disguise, where the big fish eats the small one for breakfast, is a topic about 'respect of an IT person' really meaningful?
Im a nightshift technician at a manufacturing plant. And at night none of the Engineers are here.
Im usually nobody around here, but when acres of production go offline. I instantly become the most important person in the zipcode.
It was terrifying at first, then it was exciting, now its just a job. Either i bring it back up or wake someone up. Overall its not my system design, so its not my responsibility. Im just first call.
Technical work is on the decrease, but there will be room for an IT tech for atleast the next couple decades.
I did tech support for a couple of years (1999-2002) and most of my users had enough respect to have me fix their problems with a smile.
There's always the occasional jackass but overall it was okay.
Now that i'm not doing tech support i find i get a lot more respect from people in the office when i help them out with their workstations.
I guess because it's not your job you get more respect for doing it, cause you're not expected to be able to fix everything on the spot (on tech support people expect you to be able to fix their machine in 2 minutes even if they dropped it from their desk or it started sparking & smoking after spilling some soda in it)
Sample this!
You actually get respect :( now I am sure I am alone on this world.
If the IT in the emergency section was really good enough it wouldn't be a 24/7/365 job anyway. The IT would just work, just like say bridge engineer isn't a 24/7/365 job. Why is IT engineering the only engineering where we don't prosecute for design failures?
Not that IT is useless to the people we really need. Communication equipment is pretty handy BUT these things have only become less reliable as they added more chips.
Nad, this guy has an inflated sense of the importance of IT. If you really want to see just how important IT is look at the kinda computer power involved in space vehicles. Not very much is it. Solid old school engineering and slide rulers put a man on the moon. Chemistry and sharp knifes saves lives (in the hands of a doctor). Computers? Handy for keeping the accounts to calculate the costs.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
I am employed as a system administrator and programmer in a mid-sized wholesale company (non-technical, only two guys - including me - in the IT department). Information Technology has always been seen a "necessary evil" there and so has been the job of the guys who have to take care of IT. The company's philosophy is that IT needs to be there to get the business done, but it isn't something that actively makes money. It's just something that costs the company money.
In my time there (over 6 years now) I have never really received what you might call "respect". Ok, I receive a more or less warm "Thanks" every now and then for solving problems, but there has never been something like real respect or admiration for my technical skills.
Instead, I am used to be the one who gets blamed whenever something "IT" (read: everything that has some kind of electronics inside) doesn't work. And, yes, I can confirm that it got worse over time.
Everybody seems to think that nowadays to be a system administrator is the easiest job in the whole company. Obviously people get this impression, the more they self get used to PCs, Home-LANs, etc. They think just because it is easy to set up a Windows PC at home it is as easy to run a whole IT infrastructure in a business environment. Earlier, when computers were more 'mystical', the tech-guy/administrator was some kind of wizard, someone who was believed to have extraordinary skills, someone who was admired for his competence. But this has changed nowadays.
Furthermore the management of most companies sees Information Technology more than ever as an expense factor. I guess that only the technical oriented companies see IT as a productive tool that actively helps them making money. For all the others it remains the "necessary evil".
This sounds frustrating, and, indeed, it IS frustrating from time to time. Especially as we all know, that it needs much more than a few clicks to solve problems and we have spent a lot of effort to educate ourselves to be able to solve those problems. But we also KNOW that we are competent and skillful. We prove ourselves as we solve the weirdest problems, and we pay respect to ourselves as we get them solved. Maybe this can compensate the lack of respect from coworkers/the management to some degree.
I think IT support has always been held to a jaundiced light. Most users that I come across fell that I am a necessary evil, to be tolerated because I'm somehow doing them a favor, but also in the back of the users mind, blamed for the problem because it's your responsibilty and that somehow it shouldn't have happened in the first place.
Showing respect because someone deserves it, is just that. I have no problem with respecting a manager who is actually doing a good job. (In fact, that's the only way to get my genuine respect at work: know your stuff, and do _your_ job well.)
And then there's showing fake respect to an utter incompetent. That's brown nosing.
It doesn't matter if he's a manager or not. The boss sucking up to an admin that's more of a roadblock than help, as often happened during the dot-con boom, is still brown nosing. Just because it comes in a downwards direction doesn't mean it's not brown nosing.
Managers just happen to get it more often because they're essentially the ones signing one's paycheck. So he can be so incompetent that he's a liability, and people will still pretend to have the deepest respect for him. That's brown nosing.
And, no offense, but _everyone_ claims to not like brown nosers and to empathically detect when they're brown nosed. They don't. In fact, the more one only gets fake respect, the more they'll cling to the idea that it's genuine respect and that they'd know if they were bullshitted.
Because the alternative would be admitting just that: that the only respect they can get is as fake as a hooker's orgasm. (And just like the hooker's orgasm, they paid for that fake show.) That they're incompetent.
Again, that's not meant as an insult or anything. I don't know if _you_ are in that category. Probably not. I don't know.
But I'm just saying that there _are_ a lot who, in fact, are utterly incompetent and who reward brown-nosing. Not everyone. But there are enough of them.
I'm just saying you can't just claim that "brown nosing is just a name for SHOWING RESPECT". No, it's not. It's a name for FAKING UNDESERVED RESPECT. There's a bloody huge difference there.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
As we get older are ability to learn can decrease unless it is practiced. If you were programming in fortran 77 for 20 years. You are going to have a much harder time learning .NET then a kid who learned Java 5 years ago and now switching to .NET. While most of the concepts are near the same. The brain after 20 years closed so many connections and it sees the Fortran 77 way the only and right way to do things. GOTO anyone?
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
... that's how much respect I get.
You want 'atta-boys? I give 'em out like they're free.
Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
What's he got in his briefcase?
Lunch, of course!
I remember my first briefcase, got it when I started up a small consulting business and needed a place for carrying a few floppies (later CDRoms), paperwork / day-planner, and tools.
When you dress in something nicer than a t-shirt and jeans, and carry a decent briefcase, suddenly you are a professional in the eyes of the client.
It's easy to spoil the illusion if you try, though.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because the people who mind don't matter, and the people who matter don't mind.
For starters, you have my sympathy, but I'd exclude childhood and high school indignities from this discussion. Or to put it otherwise, when a 41 year old PHB acts like an asshole, he doesn't have the same kind of excuse as a 14 year old bully. There are a lot of things that are fundamentally different between people's understanding of world and other humans between those ages.
Second, some people are just assholes. That's it. They're mean just because they can be mean, and derive their satisfaction from that.
Or for the longer story, think of Bartle's four types of MMO/MUD players: explorers, achievers, socializers and killers. (Bearing in mind that Bartle's "killer" definition doesn't mean PvP. It means people whose main satisfaction in games is causing stress and torment to others. The people whose biggest satisfaction in a game is to ruin the game for someone to the point where they cancel their account.)
I find that the classification holds true IRL too. Or rather, in games it's merely an extension of someone's RL kind of personality. Even if they don't actually do it IRL, if they derive satisfaction from making someone's life miserable in the anonymity of a virtual world, chances are they'd enjoy it just as much IRL.
So basically if you went into IT because you liked learning new stuff, you're an "explorer". If you went into it because of the money, and count your success purely in promotions, property and status, you're an "achiever". If you went to business school because you saw it as an excuse to show people who's boss and other power trips, you're most likely a "killer".
Some people just are "killers" and that's that. Wiping their shoes all over your dignity is what causes them pleasure. Best you can do is just avoid them if you can. E.g., if you find yourself working for one, best thing to do is learn some marketable skills and find a new job. Seriously.
But there was another point I was really getting to: sometimes it's _you_ that's the problem. Sometimes it's just a case of "what goes around comes around." You may just getting back the disrespect you gave others.
Us nerds, especially the Asperger's Syndrome breed, are naturally good at offending people... and not even realizing it. E.g., going around acting like a King and like doing your job (e.g., configuring a server or fixing a computer, when you're paid to do that) is some undeserved royal favour towards the unwashed masses, is a sure way to offend said masses. Insisting that everyone does things your way, goddamit, and they're idiots if they don't immediately bow to your wisdom, is another one. Doubly so if it involves childish "but I really wanna lollypop NOW" tantrums or beating on a dead horse for hours. Etc.
Honestly, a lot of nerds don't deserve any respect, and have fully earned disrespect. I'm a terminal nerd myself, yet I feel like bashing a few skulls in when dealing with some of the wannabe-BOFHs here. You have to coax them into even doing their job, like restarting a server that's crashed or configuring one for the new applications. In at least one pathologic case one threw a massive tantrum because we dared ask him to restart a server. Another one cut down our connection pools on productive applications on account that "WTH do you need more than 3 connections per server? Those are valuable resources." Sadly, I'm not kidding.
Are _you_ like that? Probably not, and anyway I have no way of knowing. So I'm not accusing you or anything.
I'm just saying that you can know for yourself, though. If in your average day you meet signifficantly more than 25% assholes, well, either you're working for the awfully wrong company, or it's really you. Both are valid possibilities, but it may be time to start seriously thinking which is it.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
You wrote a long story ending with a piece of advice, then posted immediately saying you were going against your own advice?
That's like "Do what I say, not like I do."
Environmentalism is the new Victorianism. Everyone ties on a green corset and pretends we're virtuous.
When I first started working on computers and networks, which was triggered when I volunteered to fix an old 8086 computer for a company which I was working for back in 1994, people definitely looked at me much differently than they do these days.
In 1998 I took my current job with a well established capital machine manufacturer and its sister company. I started out with the title of MIS Director and my job was to bring the systems up to date, re-search, purchase and implement new ERP/MRP software and of course I was also the sole person responsible for the Y2K project (dealing with the big 3 in automotive made that part a royal bitch by the way).
At this time the company was running on a P120 Novel 3.11 server at the main site and a 486dx266 Novel 3.11 server at the sister company which was connected via underground "Coax" cable between the buildings. There wasn't even a dial up internet connection available anywhere. All the documents, including quotes, were done in WordStar and the spreadsheets in an ancient version of Lotus123.
When I started wiping out all the 386 diskless PC's and replacing them with nice Dell Pentium systems, upgraded the server to a nice Dell Windows NT server and installed a Whistle Interjet (dial-up) e-mail/web server the people here thought I was literally their lord and savior.
But now 7 years later with 10 servers, fiber-optic connections, new 3ghz plus machines at every users desk, high speed internet and e-mail, an incredible ERP/MRP system, all new printers and faxing right from their desks, Kick-ass 3D modeling engineering CAD/CAM systems and more other technology than I can even mention in place, it seems as if I have turned into the spawn of Satan. If the slightest thing goes wrong, even a printer running out of paper it's my fault? At first like I said the employees here thought I was a godsend but now that their jobs have been made easier by computer automation and communications it seems like all they have time to do is bitch.
I really don't have an answer to why this is happening. If our e-mail server goes down you'd literally think that someone was laying out in the shop flooding the floor with blood after being decapitated by an out of control CNC Machining Center! It's complete chaos and there is true down to earth "hatred" for me for the rest of the day, even if it only took me 5 minutes to fix the problem. You would think that I was responsible for the employees' oxygen supply considering all I get blamed for and the vicious response to system failures.
There is definitely a lack of respect for IT workers these days and it's getting worse not better from what I can see.
Jay Dale "If you're not living on the edge then you're taking up too much space!"
I don't get no respect at all, no respect at all. [/Dangerfield]
Welcome to the dark side.
the most important part of earning respect is in making sure your client knows how hard you are working for them
This is so true. I have once worked on taking over the supporting of a client from another coworker.
The guy is a relatively green programmer, and he simply couldn't understand enough of the system to really fix anything. So the customer ends up having problem logs unfixed for almost a year! But the customer have nothing but praise for how hard he has been working for them.
Then I took over, worked double hard to fixed the outstanding logs in a month (partly because I am embarassed since they have been outstanding for so long) and explained to the client what's the problem. 2 months later, my boss got a lot of complains from that customer. Well, if I can fix all the outstanding logs in a month, any logs that has been outstanding for over a few weeks must mean that I am not working hard enough for them! Who cares if that is still 10x faster than the previous guy, the only thing they care is how hard you are working for them!
Not that I'm saying I necessarily agree, but I suspect the gp would say they were well-trained but uneducated. I definitely agree that practical English is fairly fuzzy on words to provide precise distinction between these meanings.
I might define "mainstream education" as "degrees and achievements where progress generally decreases the time needed to get some PhD"
I might define "professional training" as "the systematic improvement of skills related to the profession"
By those definitions, the crew probably had a high degree of professional training and a tiny amount of mainstream education.
[getting a second, different BS still counts as mainstream education, because it gets you closer to a _different_ PhD]
Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
This is what you need to make sure your superiors know. They need to know that you are a special VOIP phone-jockey. They need to know why they are lucky to have you, and not some other jackass they can grab off of monster.com.
Another point to be made. Did you at any point over the last two years ASK for a raise? If you don't ask, you don't get. I buy and sell real estate and when I buy, I always always always ask the seller for every concession I can think of. I ask for concessions on price, I ask him to fix stuff, I ask for owner financing, I ask him to throw personal property into the deal. I ask for everything! Do I get everything? Never! But I usually get something, which is way more than I would have gotten had I not asked.
In the last transaction that I did, I asked for $7000 cash from the seller. Did I get it? Yes, I did. I got $7k just for asking for it! If I wouldn't have asked, I wouldn't have gotten. Granted, usually I have to give something in return for the concessions I ask for, but not always! Sometimes I just ask and get!
My point is, you should be asking for raises and justifying your request by showing how you are saving the company money and providing lots and lots of value. And...
You just had more face time with the CEO in that one incident than your manager probably has ever received. Did you squander it just cleaning his messy keyboard? It's not like he was able to work because he was afraid to touch his keyboard.Did you ask him how he felt about the phones? Did you point out how great they were and how the company was saving a ton in telecom costs? Did you plant more ideas in his head on value you could provide the company?
I'm betting dollars to donuts you just cleaned his keyboard and left.
By the way, I bet when you were 3 years old you fucked up plenty of your grandma's bingo games. She let it go 'cuz you were a cute kid. Give the cute little old lady a break sometimes.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
about ASP sucking.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
Every time I see a plumber stick his hand into a toilet filled with one of my tenant's shit, I realize just how underpaid plumbers are.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
Such an old saying but true even today. When I first started learning computers, there were no PCs, we had COCOs & AMIGAs, most people thought we were geeks. A disliked class of people who really had no use in the world. After all, who REALLY needs a computer anyway? Most geeks allowed that opinion to live by acting as if they, geeks, were better than most but would not tell you why. For after all, you had no idea why we did things, so you would never understand us.
Thirty years latter, we geeks STILL treat the end user like trash. How many of you IT types refer to the end user as "Luser"? We as a whole never understood we are employed in IT because of the user, not in spite of them. Without the end user there is no need for the network and no need for IT. So, what does GIGO have to do with this you may ask. We as humans get what we dish out, GIGO. If you are treating the end users as "Lusers", they will treat YOU as a LOOSER, because you are. Even the "Luser" comments back in the server room will reflect out on the production floor. You want respect, give respect AT ALL TIMES. Stop being the IT person and become a person. We as humans, many times, let our position in life define who we are, when in reality, who we are defines our position in life. Be nice to people, not because you have to, because you want to. You don't like people? Find another career path. IT demands we work with people. All types of people. One thing I do after I find out what is wrong with an end user system is explain to them, in a non tech way, what was wrong. If it is a result of something they did, I say this in privet and share a story about when I did a similar thing. They learn how to operate a computer and they become your partner. This creates value for you. On the working with managers, always make sure they know how you saved them money and how you where part of the team which brought the project in on time and under budget. Always make sure you are training your replacement. Never box in the upper management to think they will not know how to replace you. This takes away their power and makes you the problem. And you NEVER get a day off. Give them the respect and power their position commands, weather you believe they deserve it or not. Let them know they can fire you, they won't be so likely to do so. I remember when I was "THE" IT department for a small, 150 people, manufacturing firm. The General Manger had a problem with the fact I had access to ALL company information because it was on the servers. He asked me why he should trust me. Instead of selling myself I gave him the power back. I told him that at any time he really did not trust me, he should fire me. No questions asked or answered. Just 'Here is your pay check and have a good life.' He never asked me that question again and we became good friends.
The bottom line is all people want respect and to be liked. Some where along the line we forgot we need to EARN respect, not demand it. Every job is required in each company or the position would not exist. We all have different skills but we don't each have all the skills. If you are not treating the person who picks up your trash the same as the person who signs your pay check, then the problem is YOU, not the rest of the world. If you are treating them both the same, and they both have no respect for you, then look in the mirror, you will see the problem.
GIGO = karma = GIGO
You want to walk into a room and be treated as a GOD, start your own religion. Get out of the IT business. People like you are making it hard for those of use who do IT because we like to work with people and technology. In your own religion, you can demand the respect your arrogant ego thinks it deserves. The rest of us will be better off also.
It's called life, learn how to live it.
Techs still get respect.. It's just that you don't.
I get the feeling the average slashdotter has never done a day's worth of hard work in his life.
"Oh no, we're being treated like mechanics/plumbers/repair men/janitors now!"
Hey losers, good luck functioning without those people. And instead of looking down on them, go learn to rebuild an engine or even sweat a copper pipe. Then come back and admit what a bunch of pretentious idiots you are.
Thanks.
Now before I get modded down, I be to remind whoever might read this that what I am saying is FACT. - bogaboga
If people keep using computers in the same ways they do now, I agree. How much work will we really have in 10 years replacing hard drives, fixing registries, and un-SNAFUing basic netowrks? On the other hand, if people continue to find more and more things to do with computers- continue to have more and more data to manage and cross-connect, deploy more capable systems, video motion detection, wearable computers with continuous video recording, phone recording and indexing, or who knows what- this would counteract the trend you describe. I wonder if we will see a huge increase in automation- automated grocery stores that stock themselves and check out via RFID, automated fast food restaurants that crank out pizzas, burgers (veggie hopefully if you ask me), etc.. There could be a whole new round of techie hiring were this to happen.. I'm not sure society could handle the sudden reduction of legitimate jobs for the uneducated though.
I have respect now, but as soon as the new software's implemented and I've been replaced by a macro i'll be as useful as a chocolate fireguard :-(
I know how you feel. Try the difference between being a doctor in 1980 versus 2005? I've found that governemtn, insurance companies, attorneys, talk shows, etc. have made me be an "assumed" quack and danger that is "necessary" to get a prescription rather than a respected and caring individual who plans on trying to diagnosis and alleviate suffering while prolonging life. This is the media society. Suspicion and fear are rampant now. Some skepticism and common sense is needed to get by in life, but the current degree in society of almost all occupations is excessive and counterproductive. I believe the pendulum will swing backwards at some point, but how soon it will is anybody's guess. Tuck Neilson
Keep on pondering, and suddenly the flower of mind will bloom with enlightenment, illuminating the whole universe.
I respect and enjoyed everything you wrote but you should not go back.
Without going into too much detail, it's because a lot of IT people don't know how to "sell" themselves, don't know how to do good powerpoint presentations, don't know how to present concepts and the "so what?" behind them without detail clutter, don't understand where "the business" is coming from, and very often don't want to or don't care.
This is a vicious generalization, I realize. But in my experience, it has often held true.
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
A fax cover sheet is equal to the email headers, which are available in the folder list.
People in the real world don't communicate by sending an email asking them to read an attachment. This situation only happens when dealing with job applications, or when dealing with people who have never used email before.
Those of us in the real world can save the email message... why require these through extra steps when they don't add value to the communication?
94% of Repubs and 21% of Dems voted to renew the Patriot Act
Let me address a few of the comments I see below before I go into what happened today...
Ok, mostly I see a bunch of AC comments saying the situation could have been handled better, ect. There's one about me not being a good manager, what not.
First off, this isn't the dot com boom anymore. You take what you can get in this economy. If this is what I love doing, i'm good at it, I should be happy with whatever I get paid, as long as it compensates for my costs.
Second, as far as this being a lack of management skills on my part, well, refer to answer #1. I did everything I could do right. There was a contract, I put in little clauses like "2 hour minimum for any site visit" and other things like that to make sure my time wasn't monopolized on little shit 1/2 visits. All said and done, I did a very good job of "managing" this.
Third, there are people in this world that no matter how good of a deal you're going to give them, they're always going to want more. This is a personality type. Usually I can spot these right off the bat, but when I first started working for this client, there was no indication that he was this type. I worked without a contract, just straight billing at my full non contract rate.
Three is enough responses, so onto what happened today..
So I get out to the sattelite office. This wasn't the main office with the troublesome company president. Like I said in my previous post, the manager of this office always valued my time and opinion, and would sometimes throw a little extra change my way ($100 check usually).
The VPN was totally down. He said it had been this way for months, and the president had several people out there to fix it, but none of them were able to figure it out. (hmm, gee, freeswan vpn, documentation is all over the fucking net you idiots) He told me at one point they had brought in these red vpn boxes (i'm guessing watchguard boxes) and when they didn't work, brought them back.
Apparently Bob was no longer doing work for the company because he wasn't getting paid. The last trip he made out there, the sattelite office had to make the check out, then fax it to his office before he even showed up on site.
There was the usual run of spyware on the machines. A few swipes with adaware and S&D cleaned them up fast.
There was some data in the main office he needed transferred over. See, the sattelite offices would save their data over the VPN to a server in the main office, where the data was backed up to a DLT tape every night.
Right before I left, I set up PPTP on their PDC so they could remote in while on the road. I just simply fired up the PPTP client, connected, downloaded the data and put it on the local BDC. Then I went around and changed all the drive mappings in the local office to point to the BDC on the local site instead of the PDC in the main office.
It was a cool hours worth of my time. Clean up 5 machines, set up some new accounts, bring the data they needed back to them, ect.
After an hour, I told him that's all that really needed to be done. I walked out with a nice check for $100 bucks for an hour of work. Well worth the trip.
Before I left, the office manager told me that the sattelite offices were planning a coup, that the company president had been flaking on everything, missing deadlines, pretending not to be in the office when he was, and making promises that he couldn't keep. Apparently they're talking to the investors / aka board of directors about this in secret meetings.
When the coup finally does happen, they want me back taking care of things with a substancial pay raise.
So again, there's another moral to be learned out of all of this.
Just because things fall apart, it doesn't mean that you will always get the blame. Do good work, and people will notice you.
Well, mainly because when making an application to somebody, you follow their (or standard accepted for that type of application) practices, or you risk having your application thrown out.
And they might not add value to the communication as far as your concerned, but it's not your perspective on this that matters, is it?
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Oh, and you're not 'sending an email asking to read an attachment.' You're sending an email with two important documents attached, that won't be read in the context of an email program by a single HR type.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
I know I'm definately on the losing side of this one... automation is the future. My opinion doesn't matter much. I just mourn the loss of the the human side of all of this.
you follow their (or standard accepted for that type of application) practices
And here's the rub. Their standard practices is usually not known to external job applicants. It's a black box. Maybe they want the cover letter attached as a word doc. Maybe they hate that practice since it goes against the Unix practices. Maybe they cannot accept a resume as a PDF, maybe not. I don't know.
I try to bypass their standard practices anytime I can and try the old-fashioned human approach.
In the last 3 years, I have easily sent 150 resumes through Peoplesoft or Brass Ring tools used by HR without a single hit. In the same time, I've used my business network 10 times, and have scored 6 job interviews and 3 job offers. Same resume, similar cover letter.
These new practices have changed the concept of a 'cover letter'. A cover letter used to be a way of personally introducing yourself to the company. Now it's a document to be scaned and analyzed by a computer. The human side of the communication has been removed.
I know that if someone sent me a job application, and said "Please read the attached cover letter", I would probably trash the application because it indicates that the person does not know the appropriate way to use email. This is increasingly a problem in the corporate world. The HR department in my 10,000 person company will frequently send out "HR News" emails to the entire company without realizing that 1/3 of the company cannot read their format (Lotus Notes vs MS Exchange, internal hyperlinks, etc.)-- and they never acknowledge this problem or send a correction.
So I think I need to prepare for the least common denominator--- put the 'cover sheet' in the email body and as an attachment.
94% of Repubs and 21% of Dems voted to renew the Patriot Act
I agree with a lot of what you say; what one company thinks is the bee's knees, another company will toss your resume for.
I'll also point out that you don't find jobs by plastering your resume about; you find jobs through your network of contacts, the friend of a friend who knows a co-worker who's hiring.
I don't know about the 'don't know how to use email' part. Ideally, it should be made clear how submissions are to be made, in the job posting. When I'm emailing a resume/CL around, I put an abbreviated CL into the email body, and attach the spiffy version, by default.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Until I started mentioning and recommending Linux around the office. Then I got fired and ridiculed for even mentioning the word Linux. People laughed at me, spit on me and generally assassinated my character for talking about the steaming pile that is Linux. Now I say "LinSux", and once again I am at the top of my game. Revered and awed everywhere I go as the ultimate Windows Administrator With All The Answers, I no longer darken my thoughts with LinSux, because, you see, it really is a steaming pile of shit code written by zealots and promoted by the clueless, hapless Internet wannabees with a sweatly, precarious grip on reality. My life got better the moment I realized that LinSux was a joke, a half-baked attempt at a new revolution whose time (just like Woodstock) had come and gone, leaving behind a plethora of dazed and confused little keyboard junkies. Your parents realized the futility of the "Freedom Revolution" in the 70s and 80s and went to college, got degrees, had kids and basically grew the fuck up. Why don't you? Linux is as dead as smoke on the water. You will never reclaim market share. Never. Your light has gone out. Your boat has sunk. The train derailed. So, now, why don't you heed the advise of the baby boomer generation and grow the fuck up as well?
You couldn't be more wrong. Enron was one of Bush's biggest contributors.
http://www.progressive.org/pc0900.htm
http://www.knowthecandidates.org/ktc/BushAnalysis. htm
You, sir, really need to get your facts straight. A simple google search reveals the links between Bush and Enron. It takes all of five minutes. Try it sometime, you might learn something.
IT is now another mandatory group that ever mid-sized or larger company requires just like finance, HR, etc. However, the level of respect given by default to these employees differs greatly. Consider the offices and executive access that the finance and HR team have. Notice how small your cubicle is, and the fact that you've been stuffed in a different building than the executives, or at least as far away from them as possible. This may not be the case with every company, but from the people I know it's the case 95% of the time. Software professionals or engineers in general are not given the same respect as other career types. The computer I get to code software on isn't even as powerful as those in Finance.
I have noticed that the respect I get has decreased in direct proportion to the amount of gray hair I have. The older I get, the less respect I get.
Which translates as, the more experience I have the less respect I get for the knowledge I have accumulated.
Stonewolf
You should get that NDA in writing... and wear clothes suited for the job. =)
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.