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Another Plane Down in New York
Another plane has crashed, this time in Queens. You can read a blurb at Yahoo.
CNN.com isn't responding for me. LaGuardia, Newark and JFK are closed now. Update: 11/12 14:54 GMT by T : New reports indicate that the plane was departing from JFK, not arriving. Also, CNN has confirmed that this was American Airlines flight 587, an Airbus A 300. Update: 11/12 14:57 GMT by T : Further information is that the plane was en route to the Dominican Republic, and that the disaster actually involves two crash sites, not just one -- an engine fell from the plane some distance from the fuselage.
Hope this is not another one.
Let slip the dogs of war.
They need to stop putting windows 98 on airplanes, then maybe they'd stop crashing
picture
Do Unto Others As You Would Have Others Do Unto You - ONLY HARDER!
No TV nearby, is it terrorism or accidental?
If it was terrorists this is too much, bombs we need lots of bombs
"All I can tell the "lesser of two evils" folks is that if they keep voting for evil, they'll keep getting evil."-Lp.org
It's a 767
"First you gotta do the truffle shuffle."
Just to let you all know - as off press time for this posting, nobody knows whether this was an accident, or another terrorist attack.
Let's not jump to conclusions.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
good luck getting there
Everyone knows what everyone is thinking at this moment, possible cause for the accident.
They have the public scared, even if this had nothing to do with terrorism, more people will be afraid.
Step 1: Take 3 deep breaths.
Step 2: Find out if it was terror or something else entirely.
Step 3: Take deliberate and appropriate action.
Moderators, please mod knee jerk posts accordingly...
mh
cbsnews.com was working, but it kept chopping up on me, I would disconnect, and reconnect. Now it's telling me that it has reached Max # of streams. Anyone able to get a live stream? Please post url...
No luck for me on abcnews.com, msnbc.com, cnn.com of course won't even come up.
www.jackasscritics.com
They know it went down. They know it was headed to JFK. They don't know anything else at the moment. They say they don't have any reason to say it's a terrorist attack at this point. At the moment they're calling it an accident. FYI
...richie - It is a good day to code.
Live video coverage at MSNBC.
Any sufficiently well-organized Government is indistinguishable from bullshit.
Hi!
Are there any confirmation if this is another terror attack or not?
CBC
Yes! First Post!
This was flight 587, headed to the Dominican Republic.
-Waldo Jaquith
According to ABC News (I got a little bit of the vieo blurb before it totally crapped out on me)
eyewitnesses are reprting that an angine exploded on the approach to JFK, and that several buildings are on fire.
My Girlfriends family lives in queens, as does the family of someu very close friends of mine . . . . here's to hoping they're all okay.
----
One of us needs to stick ones' head in a bucket of ice water.
- Hobbes
it's an airbus A-300 jet, according to MSNBC. or it's a flying saucer, according to Fox News ... :)
---
Mindy: "Well...desserts aren't always right." Homer: "But they're so sweet!"
all they said is
An American Airlines 767 has crashed in the Queens borough of New York City. Port Authority officials say the plane was bound for JFK airport. Thick black smoke was billowing over the area, and local media reported several houses on fire. FULL STORY SOON
"All I can tell the "lesser of two evils" folks is that if they keep voting for evil, they'll keep getting evil."-Lp.org
The greatest terrorist attack on the US happened just two months ago and you have the gall to be discussing "Another Plane down in New York"?
GET SOME PRIORITIES!!
Almost exactly 2 months after, they would probably not choose 11 Nov as it would be a Sunday.
/.'ed.
Not sure about the Target though, perhaps the passengers reacted.
This is going to cripple the airline industry further.
There still is a chance it could have been an accident.
My thoughts go with all.
All the news sites are pretty much
Any word yet on whether it's terrorist related or not?
Their coverage is here.
Common sense is a set of prejudices built up over a lifetime
CNN just said that it was an Airbus 300 that nosedived into Queens. At least 4 homes are on fire.
No word on cause.
~=Keelor
According to radio reports, witnesses on the ground reported that an engine exploded prior to the crash. The plane was on approach to one on the NY airports and therfore not fully fueled as in the last set of attacks. Repoets state that four building are on fire.
âoeWho knew something as harmless as willful ignorance could end up having real consequences?â
As opposed to being "rerouted", like before.
NEW YORK (CNN) -- Queens police confirm an aircraft crashed Monday in the Far Rockaways neighborhood of the New York City borough.
The spokesman could not confirm the type of plane but said it crashed in the Rockaways at 122nd Street and Rockaway Beach Boulevard.
WCBS-TV reported that the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said it was an American Airlines 767 presumably on approach to John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York. The station showed pictures of a huge plume of smoke.
I was thinking of going across the office area I'm in to check out CNN but I thought twice, I have better things to do, although there's no word yet I'm betting this has nothing to do with "terrorist" attacks, just another plane crash? If you want to call plane crashes routine.... I'm sure (ok, I hope) this is just a non-event that the media will be all over, news at eleven.
It's September 11th all over again!
We're all going to die...
linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux linux !
I know that we're not supposed to jump to conclusions, but none of us can help it at this point. Airplane crash == terrorist attack. In fact, I'd be leaping to conclusions if I decided this were mechanical failure. The odds of this being terrorist-related are overwhelming.
Winning the land battle in Afghanistan does nothing to make us safer. This we now know for certain.
-Waldo Jaquith
Airbus 300 on it's way to Santo Domingo, Flight 587
was not inbound... bound for dominican republic.. AA flight #587 Airbus a300..
PLANE CRASHES IN QUEENS, NEW YORK
NEW YORK (AP) . A plane crashed Monday morning in the Queens section of New York, and buildings reportedly were on fire in the neighborhood.
The plane crashed shortly after 9 a.m. and thick, black smoke could be seen in televised reports.
The type of plane and number of people aboard were not immediately known. CNN reported that American Airlines confirmed the plane was an inbound American Airlines Boeing 767. The airline told The Associated Press it had no immediate comment.
11-12-01 0940EST
CNN reports that it was flight 587 and was an Airbus A300 not 767 on it's way to the Dominican Republic.
Australian? Join EFA
--The Fireman who told Osama "Come Get Me, I Live in Far Rockaway..."
--Plane crash landed in Far Rockaway.
This
Foxnews is reporting that it was an Airbus 300 that crashed after take off.
Appearently, according to the TV I am watching, 2 planes crashed...not just one. Definitely terrorist.
The anti-salmon
Not a 767.
From CNN
"An American Airlines plane has crashed in the Queens borough of New York City. The FAA identifies the flight as American flight 587, an Airbus A300 from JFK airport to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. Thick smoke was billowing over the area, and local media reported several houses on fire."
I am 31337 or something.
NEW YORK (CNN) -- Queens police confirm an aircraft crashed Monday in the Far Rockaways neighborhood of the New York City borough.
The spokesman could not confirm the type of plane but said it crashed in the Rockaways at 122nd Street and Rockaway Beach Boulevard.
WCBS-TV reported that the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said it was an American Airlines 767 presumably on approach to John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York. The station showed pictures of a huge plume of smoke.
NYTIMES.com is up and has an AP article on the crash, foxnews is also unreachable.
CNN has just announced that the plane that crashed was an Airbus A300 AA headed to the Dominican Reublic from JFK.
I mod this +63, HILARIOUS!
It was taking off, not landing. Just getting ready to fly to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic.
You cannot promote MSNBC on slashdot.
Micheal will bitchslap you, unbeliever.
Buildings burning.
p &a ddr=&city=Rockaway+Park&state=NY&slt=40.580000&sln =-73.836700&mlt=40.578000&mln=-73.844100&zip=&coun try=us&mag=9&cs=7&BFClient=&BFKey=&poi=&poititle=& map.x=107&map.y=204
Yahoo map of impact zone
http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?BFCat=&Pyt=Tma
New 24
Robots.cnn.com is a load balancing mirror for CNN. How long till they go barebones again?
Current headline:
An American Airlines plane has crashed in the Queens borough of New York City. The FAA identifies the flight as American flight 587, an Airbus A300 from JFK airport to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. Thick smoke was billowing over the area, and local media reported several houses on fire.
This time it is even closer to where my dad works. Not even a mile away. Scares the shit out of me.
"He who laughs last is usually the dumbest kid on the block." - John Lennon
If this is indeed another hijacking brought down by passengers, the hijackers are demonstrating the type enginuity and resolve that the House lacks in getting the damn airline security bill passed.
If it's an accident...?
Imagine what this is going to do to Thanksgiving Holiday air traffic. Also, in the face of Am-Trak being asked to consider it's assets for liquidation. The irony.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
They now know that it was an Airbus A-300 not a 767. It was taking off and heading for the Dominiqin Republic. It appears to have happened very shortly after take-off with no prior warning. Got this all from MSNBC
Unstable Apps: Our Android Apps Don't Suck
"my name is mike moran. i live in rockaway. this is my face bitch."
here's hoping it was an accident.
"i was saying gnu-rd"
The BBC news site is still responding, albeit slowly. news.bbc.co.uk Escoutaire When a dream dreams the dreamer, the dreams the real.
When a dream dreams the dreamer, the dreams the real.
06:34 PST NEW YORK (AP) --
A plane crashed Monday morning in the Queens section of New York, and buildings reportedly were on fire in the neighborhood.
The plane crashed shortly after 9 a.m. and thick, black smoke could be scene in televised reports.
The type of plane and number of people aboard were not immediately known.
CNN says the plane was on approach for landing...
An American Airlines flight on its way to John F Kennedy airport has crashed in New York.
At least four buildings in the Rockaway Beach area of the city's borough of Queens are on fire.
It is not known why the aircraft crashed or how many people were on board, or in the buildings now ablaze.
New York Mayor Rudolph Guiliani is on his way to the crash site and has called a level one alert.
There is no indication at the moment that the crash is anything other than an accident.
The weather was crystal clear when the plane - thought to be a Boeing 767 - went down.
Both towers of the World Trade Center in New York were destroyed on 11 September after 767s were flown into them.
All three airports serving New York - JFK, Newark and La Guardia - are now closed.
The Dow index dropped 200 points on hearing the news.
A co-worker of mine just told me that he heard on the radio that eyewittnesses reported seeing one of the engines exploding.
... but I hope it was just a mechanical failure.
I don't mean this to be crass
mr
For example: Canada's Globe & Mail
It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
It's not a 767, it was an Airbus A-300...
Would be looking like this...
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=191200
American Flight 587 out of JFK to the Dominican Republic down in Queens :( Good luck to everyone.
Realities just a bunch of bits.
NEW YORK (CNN) -- Queens police confirm an aircraft crashed Monday in the Far Rockaways neighborhood of the New York City borough.
The spokesman could not confirm the type of plane but said it crashed in the Rockaways at 122nd Street and Rockaway Beach Boulevard.
WCBS-TV reported that the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said it was an American Airlines 767 presumably on approach to John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York. The station showed pictures of a huge plume of smoke.
- christion versus muslim riots in indonesia
- kiddnapping and killing of tourists in vietnam
- isreal (self explaintory)
- hindu vs muslim in kasmir (india)
- hundreds dead in christian vs muslim riots in nigeria (africa)
From the initial information, which is quite sparse, this doesn't follow the pattern of the earlier terrorist attacks. If it crashed while it was comming in for a landing, it would do much less damage, because I assume it would have much less fuel. Also, if you have control of an airplane, why not ram it into a tall building instead of some houses?
Of course we know so little at this point, speculating seems pointless..
but they promised the war would end all plane crashes and make us safe forever.
http://robots.cnn.com/2001/US/11/12/newyork.crash/ index.html
There's a direct URL, load balancing.
http://robots.cnn.com
NEW YORK -- An American Airlines Airbus A300 crashed Monday morning in the Queens section of New York, and buildings reportedly were on fire in the neighborhood. The plane crashed shortly after 9 a.m. and thick, black smoke could be seen miles away. All metro area airports were closed following the crash, in the Rockaways section of Queens. The mayor canceled his morning events and headed to the scene. One eyewitness reported debris falling from sky, and told the Fox News Channel four homes were on fire. Another told CNN he was 40 blocks away and saw "Just a lot of smoke. Tons and tons of smoke. You can see emergency vehicles heading to area. Lots of people are standing in the streets. It's very tense." The cause of the crash was not immediately known. The crash came two months after the attack on the World Trade Center, which was destroyed by two Boeing 767s hijacked out of Boston's Logan Airport. One of the planes was operated by American, the other by United.
"All I can tell the "lesser of two evils" folks is that if they keep voting for evil, they'll keep getting evil."-Lp.org
BBC Link
/.'d by now....
Will probably by
Did every news site return all the extra servers and bandwidth they acquired during the 9/11 attack? Suddenly I can't get to cnn, yahoo news, and many other sites. What happened to their extra capacity?
creation science book
According to the radio, the Am. Airlines plane was *departing* JFK, and had only been in the air for two minutes before crashing. With reports of the engine exploding, it sounds like a bomb or engine failure as opposed to a hijacking.
- Demosthenes
There is live on-line news coverage of the plane crash already at ABCNews.
Norwegian tv is reporting that the plan is an Airbus A300
Adversus solem ne loquitor
First people hear the initial incorrect reports (incoming flight, 767), then other people post more up to date information. Then the first wave berates the second wave for not having the correct info. Then they just look stupid for getting knee-jerk news reports anyhow.
Slow down, don't post so damn quick.
Now I'm watching ABC, and it sounds like it's actually an Airbus, and the plane was actually taking off. Hence the huge amounts of smoke.
Looks like an accident. There's a lady on the phone who saw it happen, said the plane just started taking off, and then plummeted.
"Peace, Love and Apathy"
NEW YORK, Nov. 12 -- At least four homes were ablaze Monday after an American Airlines 767 aircraft crashed near the heavily populated Rockaway Beach area of New York City, not far from John F. Kennedy International Airport, NBC News reported on Monday. The Airbus-300, Flight 587, was heading to Santo Domingo in the Dominican Republic.
DETAILS WERE sketchy although cameras in Manhattan showed a thick plume of smoke billowing high above Queens.
The local NBC affiliate, WNBC, reported that the crash occurred in the Bel Harbor section of the Rockaways at around 9:15 a.m. ET.
JFK and La Guardia Airport, which is also based in Queens, were shut after the accident.
An eyewitness told WNBC that he saw a wing of the plane on fire after takeoff from JFK.
Fox News just reported it as being a American Airlines' Airbus Leaving JFK to the Dominican Republic.
Ah, the last peanut -- overflowing with the oil and salt of its departed brothers. -Homer
I can hear the phone lines ringing off the hook with the scared masses canceling thier thanksgiving flights. If it was an accident, then it just dealt another major blow to our emotions and economy.
Pray for the familes of yet another downed flight.
Man, I don't know about you all, but after the 9-11 and now 11-12, I think I got a pretty damn strong reason for reporting to work late in the mornings... Traffic jams don't work now, try terrorist attacks. :-)
This Story at the BBC is up and down like a YoYo.
BBC Radio 1 is reporting nothing at present - actually playing 'heaven is a halfpipe'!
http://www.msnbc.com/m/lv/default.asp?0cv=c642
"Recta non toleranda futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis"
Since the CNN site is getting hammered (Don't they ever learn?) Here's the text:
American Airlines jet crashes in New York
November 12, 2001 Posted: 9:54 AM EST (1454 GMT)
NEW YORK (CNN) -- An American Airlines jet crashed Monday in the New York City borough of Queens.
CNN confirmed the plane was American Airlines Flight 587 from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. The plane was an Airbus A-300. American Airlines did not immediately release the number of passengers on the flight.
A New York police spokesman said the plane crashed in the Rockaways section of Queens. At least four houses were on fire, and a huge plume of smoke could be seen rising from the site.
All three New York City-area airports -- Kennedy, LaGuardia and Newark -- closed after the crash, according to CNN affiliate WCBS in New York. Mayor Rudy Giuliani declared a Level One emergency, mobilizing all available police, fire and emergency personnel.
Trying to bring up the story on New York Times I get an Orbitz pop-under ad. Story probably requires the free registration.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
For those that don't live in NYC there is a map of queens here
FYI: Far rockaways are very near JFK.
According to this article, it was an A300 bound for Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic from JFK. It crashed shortly after take off, thus hitting a few houses and catching them on fire.
DevPlanet.org
Plane crash in NYC
An American Airlines plane has crashed in the Queens borough of New York City. The FAA identifies the flight as American flight 587, an Airbus A300 from JFK airport to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. Thick smoke was billowing over the area, and local media reported several houses on fire.
http://kered.org
to reply to my own post, CNN has a different report now:
s h/ index.html
CNN confirmed the plane was American Airlines Flight 587 from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. The plane was an Airbus A-300. American Airlines did not immediately release the number of passengers on the flight.
http://robots.cnn.com/2001/US/11/12/newyork.cra
http://europe.cnn.com/2001/US/11/12/newyork.crash/ index.html
Didn't something like this happen about two months ago?
I hope this is an engine accident... It would be traggic but... believable. Whats strange is that its seems more... acceptable if hundreds die in an accident, but if in an act of war they become more precious...
America has never had someone bring a war to our homefront, and we need to realize this is what that is... and act accordingly, by protecting our own, and killing all of those responsible, I know we are in that process of doing it, but... perhaps if this IS an another incident we need to stop being so... law abiding? moral? Let our soldiers do their jobs (break things, kill people) and target their leaders (read: assinations) with no care for any laws we hold. They deserve to die...
But hopefully this is an accident... hopefully
"No son it doesn't matter whether you win or lose just how drunk you get" ---Homer
I believe that unless they do something about minimum wage, lowest bidder security, that this will be the norm.
Get used to it.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
It was an A300 heading to the Dominican Republic.
"The plane reportedly crashed near Beach 129th Street and Newport Avenue, in the Rockaways section of Queens."
:/
Hope everyone's OK
"My days are less enjoyable because of people." ~ Johnny the Homicidal Maniac
What comes around goes around.
I'm watching this on TV right now (cnn.com still not responding). Some of the initial details have changed:
/leaving/ JFK for Dominican Rep.
- Not a 767, an Airbus A-300 (seats around 300 people)
- It was American Airlines flight 587;
- The crash site is a residential/shopping area (Rockaway Beach Blvd.)
- FAA issued an advisory saying that there is no indication (yet) of a terrorist attack.
- Bridges and tunnels in NYC have been closed.
------
--- I shall always be wherever I've been. - Winston Niles Rumfoord
You can get live streaming video from BBC Live in QuickTime.
Almost no packet loss... for now...
- Benad
The Yahoo blurb reads out:
The plane crashed shortly after 9 a.m. and thick, black smoke could be scene in televised reports.
Even I make spelling errors, but I think this kind of news should be thoughtfully brought to the public, rather than quickly jotted down.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
NEW YORK (CNN) -- Queens police confirm an aircraft crashed Monday in the Far Rockaways neighborhood of the New York City borough.
The spokesman could not confirm the type of plane but said it crashed in the Rockaways at 122nd Street and Rockaway Beach Boulevard.
WCBS-TV reported that the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said it was an American Airlines 767 presumably on approach to John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York. The station showed pictures of a huge plume of smoke.
karma already @ 50 - not trying to be a whore so relax...
http://kered.org
BBC news site report doesn't add much:
saru mo ki kara ochiru
It doesn't take the same full blast of traffic that the main site takes.
Washington Post
Sun Sentinel
Details are sketchy, but WNYC (back online!) reports at least 4 buildings on fire, and some concern that there is a gasoline station in the vicinity. Crashsite is an suburban neighborhood, homes, schools, etc. Capacity of the plane is 285 souls.
A friend of mine just said "Isn't is horrible that we can now think 'I hope it was just a plane crash' when something like this happens?"
From the location of the crash and proximity to the airport it looks like it might have just been an accident. If not, then it is yet another nail in the terrorist's coffins.
It is not an inbound flight, but rather an outbound to the Dominican Republic. An eye witness describes the explosion where the wing meets the body of the plane, the armpit where the wing meets. The explosion does not seem to appear in or by the engine. Please standby for more information.
Prayer: Please, GOD, please don't let this be another one.
This is yet again proof of why chat groups, bulletin boards and internet newsgroups are useless as a "breaking story" news source. It's been less than 45 minutes since the crash and already people are posting "facts" that were proven wrong minutes later or are providing mindless speculation. I'll grant you that CNN isn't much better in the first hour of any major story, but at least on TV the incorrect data doesn't stick around for days after the truth is known.
What you've said so far: It was a 767. It was inbound to NY. It crashed downtown. It might have been terrorists.
What CNN is saying as of a minute ago: It was an Airbus A300. It was leaving NY on an international flight. It crashed 10 miles from the airport, out in Rockaway (Long Island).
Let's leave the journalism to the journalists, shall we?
An American Airlines Jet, probably an Airbus, was headed to the Dominican Republic and ran into some kind of trouble after takeoff. It tried to return to the airport, but could not make. Maybe an engine exploded or was on fire. FAA does NOT believe it was a terroist attack or any kind of hijacking.
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. -- William James
Summary:
American airlines Airbus A300.
Flying from JFK to the dominican republic
Between 5-10 miles out of JFK, over Queens
At least 4 buildings on fire.
All 3 airports in NY now closed.
No news on accident/terrorist
DWR is Ajax for Java
Well, maybe it would be safer not to fly, but this seems to have crashed in or near apartments, so if you had stayed home late this morning, well, work might have been a safer place today. I guess it's time to buy an old copper mine somewhere.
You guys are up no matter what... thanks for some consise info.
For you europeans out there, sky.co.uk is MIA now, as is the BBC's site.
Good luck getting info... maybe try IRC.openprojects.org #worldtradecenter. That's where I am.
-spool32
Whatever happened to JonKatz?
You shouldn't report news on slashdot because 1) that's not the purpose and 2) you often get it wrong and spread misinformation.
You can argue that the news sites are down, but that's better than spreading misinformation.
the plane ...
linky linky"
Runnin' On Empty
CNN may be down but the Washington Post is up and has a photo.
Abcnews.go.com appears to be down.
MSNBC is up with coverage.
If guns kill people, then CmdrTaco's keyboard misspells words.
Notice that this time the newssites was _very_ quick on going to a light version of their pages.
They have obviously learned from prior experiences.
Dow Jones however dropped 200 points faster than any newssite could update their pages. Consider the impact on US-airtraffic.
Wonder how much time it will take until someone goes bankrupt and wether it will be a US or some other national agency that drops first.
Rangle
I also have friends and relatives who are travelling today, and was worried about them until I saw the reports here.
Once again, I thank you.
http://www.chicagotribune.com works
http://www.latimes.com works
if you have IE (yeah, I know) you can get the BBC News coverage - this stayed up all 11/9 for me, and I'm listening to it now....
T
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. - George Best
Did anyone else have the same horrible initial reaction to this I did? "Whew, just an engine explosion! What a relief!"
No take a look at
I'd be thankful if somebody could explain that to me 'cos it sounds so strange to me! (note: I don't have a clue about the whole topic)
0 001 11 1
Why do so many people seem to think that not attacking Afghanistan means "doing nothing"?
We have alot of options besides engaging in inapropriate military action.
Why inapropriate? Donald Rumsfeld said that we're unlikely to catch Bin Laden. Many members of the Taliban are no longer in the Taliban and will never be caught. Besides all of these peopl already invaded Afghanistan. Neither Bin Laden nor the Taliban are Afghani. We are bombing innocent civilians who happened to have the misfortune of being invaded by people who attacked the US as well.
American Airlines reports that it was flight 587, an Airbus 300 that was outbound from JFK to the Dominican Republic, and it crashed about 2 minutes after takeoff© There were 247 passengers and 9 crewmembers©
From what I've heard it crashed in the Rockaways at 122nd street and Rockaway Beach Boulevard©
The FAA is saying that there is no indication of terrorism right now©
The Queens/Midtown tunns are closed, Lincoln outbound is closed until further notice©
Also, JFK, LaGuardia and Newark airports are closed©
--
Mike Nugent
Programmer/Author
http://www©illuminatus©org
-- Mike wildcard@illuminatus.org
New York Times, 7:03, 11/12/01:
November 12, 2001
Homes in Queens on Fire
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
EW YORK -- An American Airlines Airbus A300 crashed Monday morning in the Queens section of New York, and buildings reportedly were on fire in the neighborhood.
The plane crashed shortly after 9 a.m. and thick, black smoke could be seen miles away.
All metro area airports were closed following the crash, in the Rockaways section of Queens.
The mayor canceled his morning events and headed to the scene.
One eyewitness reported debris falling from sky, and told the Fox News Channel four homes were on fire.
Another told CNN he was 40 blocks away and saw "Just a lot of smoke. Tons and tons of smoke. You can see emergency vehicles heading to area. Lots of people are standing in the streets. It's very tense."
The cause of the crash was not immediately known.
The crash came two months after the attack on the World Trade Center, which was destroyed by two Boeing 767s hijacked out of Boston's Logan Airport. One of the planes was operated by American, the other by United.
An explanation of how the U.S. got into this mess: What should be the Response to Violence?
Bush's education improvements were
The problem is that simply firing a few billion $ worth of ammunition into the Afghan wastelands does not only accomplish nothing, it actually worsens the situation by driving even more desperate people into the hands of the terrorist groups.
Unless we start caring about the causes (Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Iraq etc.) and not simply about the symptoms, we can already mark January 11.
And if this crash wasn't a terrorist attack, but a simple accident, it changes nothing about the underlying facts.
The worst terrorist attack in recorded history occurred in September, and now we're involved in a WAR against Islam during the holy month of Ramadon (that kind of sounds like the name of a soup mix, don't you think?) and you people have the gall to be discussing a downed 767???? My *god*, people, GET SOME PRIORITIES!
The bodies of the thousands of innocent civilians who died (and will die) in these unprecedented events could give a good god damn about downed 767s, your childish Lego models, your nerf toy guns and whining about the lack of a "fun" workplace, your Everquest/Diablo/D&D fixation, the latest Cowboy Bebop rerun, or any of the other ways you are "getting on with your life" (here's a hint: watching Cowboy Bebop in your jammies and eating a bowl of Shreddies is *not* "getting on with your life"). The souls of the victims are watching in horror as you people squander your finite, precious time on this earth playing video games!
You people disgust me!
They also said that the firefighters on the scene are the exact same ones that were at the WTC just over two months ago.
________________________________________________
suwain_2
[sorry for bothering you here, couldn't figure it out by myself].
non-english speaker, so knee jerk makes little sense to me.
thanks
-- There are two kind of sysadmins: Paranoids and Losers. (adapted from D. Bach)
NBC is reporting that 246 people were ticketed for this flight along with 9 crewmembers. No telling how many people were in the vicinity on the ground, I imagine this part of the Queens is quite densely populated.
Please cut and paste articles since the websites will die one after the other. Thnx.
Does anyone have a videostream on a line that can take the slashdot effect? Would be nice for us without Cable/American TV.
ABC News says that there were 256 people on board. 247 passengers, 9 crew members.
FAA says no indications that it's terrorist-related.
From robots.cnn.com
"The Pentagon said surveillance f(l)ights were going on in the area and nothing unusual had been spotted."
Mechanical failure?
Quote from CNN: "The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said the plane was carrying 246 passengers and nine crew members. "
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
November 12, 2001 Posted: 10:06 AM EST (1506 GMT)
NEW YORK (CNN) -- An American Airlines jet with 255 people on board crashed Monday on takeoff from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport.
The plane went down at 9:17 a.m. EST in the Rockways section of the New York City borough of Queens, about five miles from Kennedy Airport.
CNN confirmed the plane was American Airlines Flight 587 from New York to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. The plane was a Boeing Airbus A300. The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said the plane was carrying 246 passengers and nine crew members.
Asked if terrorism was suspected, Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Bill Schumann said, "All options are open at this time. We have very limited information."
The Pentagon said surveillance fights were going on in the area and nothing unusual had been spotted.
At least four houses were on fire, and a huge plume of smoke could be seen rising from the site. The New York Fire Department dispatched 44 firetrucks and 200 firefighters to the scene.
All three New York City-area airports -- Kennedy, LaGuardia and Newark -- closed after the crash, along with all the city's bridges and tunnels. Mayor Rudy Giuliani declared a Level One emergency, mobilizing all available police, fire and emergency personnel.
NEW YORK (CNN) -- An American Airlines jet with 255 people on board crashed Monday on takeoff from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport.
The plane went down at 9:17 a.m. EST in the Rockways section of the New York City borough of Queens, about five miles from Kennedy Airport.
CNN confirmed the plane was American Airlines Flight 587 from New York to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. The plane was a Boeing Airbus A300. The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said the plane was carrying 246 passengers and nine crew members.
Asked if terrorism was suspected, Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Bill Schumann said, "All options are open at this time. We have very limited information."
The Pentagon said surveillance fights were going on in the area and nothing unusual had been spotted.
At least four houses were on fire, and a huge plume of smoke could be seen rising from the site. The New York Fire Department dispatched 44 firetrucks and 200 firefighters to the scene.
All three New York City-area airports -- Kennedy, LaGuardia and Newark -- closed after the crash, along with all the city's bridges and tunnels. Mayor Rudy Giuliani declared a Level One emergency, mobilizing all available police, fire and emergency personnel.
* American Airlines flight crashes on takeoff in NYC borough of Queens
* FAA: American Flight 587 -- Airbus A300 -- from JFK airport to Santa Domingo, Dominican Republic
* NYC Port Authority: 246 passengers, 9 crew
* All NYC area airports closed, bridges and tunnels leading into city closed
* Affiliate WCBS reports at least 4 buildings on fire
* New York Fire Department dispatches 44 trucks, 200 firefighters
255 People on board 246 passengers 9 crew !
Smoke rises Monday morning from the crash site in Queens, New York. NEW YORK (CNN) An American Airlines jet with 255 people on board crashed Monday on takeoff from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport.
The plane went down at 9:17 a.m. EST in the Rockways section of the New York City borough of Queens, about five miles from Kennedy Airport.
CNN confirmed the plane was American Airlines Flight 587 from New York to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. The plane was a Boeing Airbus A300. The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said the plane was carrying 246 passengers and nine crew members.
Asked if terrorism was suspected, Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Bill Schumann said, "All options are open at this time. We have very limited information."
The Pentagon said surveillance fights were going on in the area and nothing unusual had been spotted.
At least four houses were on fire, and a huge plume of smoke could be seen rising from the site. The New York Fire Department dispatched 44 firetrucks and 200 firefighters to the scene.
All three New York City-area airports -- Kennedy, LaGuardia and Newark -- closed after the crash, along with all the city's bridges and tunnels. Mayor Rudy Giuliani declared a Level One emergency, mobilizing all available police, fire and emergency personnel.
American Airlines jet crashes in New York
November 12, 2001 Posted: 10:06 AM EST (1506 GMT)
Smoke rises Monday morning from the crash site in Queens, New York.
NEW YORK (CNN) -- An American Airlines jet with 255 people on board crashed Monday on takeoff from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport.
The plane went down at 9:17 a.m. EST in the Rockways section of the New York City borough of Queens, about five miles from Kennedy Airport.
CNN confirmed the plane was American Airlines Flight 587 from New York to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. The plane was a Boeing Airbus A300. The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said the plane was carrying 246 passengers and nine crew members.
Asked if terrorism was suspected, Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Bill Schumann said, "All options are open at this time. We have very limited information."
The Pentagon said surveillance fights were going on in the area and nothing unusual had been spotted.
At least four houses were on fire, and a huge plume of smoke could be seen rising from the site. The New York Fire Department dispatched 44 firetrucks and 200 firefighters to the scene.
All three New York City-area airports -- Kennedy, LaGuardia and Newark -- closed after the crash, along with all the city's bridges and tunnels. Mayor Rudy Giuliani declared a Level One emergency, mobilizing all available police, fire and emergency personnel.
karma already @ 50 - not trying to be a whore here so don't worry...
http://kered.org
Sabena and Swiss Air are already there.
246 Passengers 9 Crew on board the flight.
You got 3 flamebait andd one troll in no time... Cheers!
As always, I'm puzzled at the speed of which news like this spreads.
Tragic as it is, I am somewhat intrigued by the how big news like this spreads on the internet - 10 years ago I would have learned about something like the wtc-incident in the local news the day after or on the national television. Now i heard about the crash 5 minutes after it happened, and then we learned about everything through irc and the heavily dos'ed newssites almost realtime as it happened.
Also, i see that there are tons of rumours, like the comments to this article shows, there are enormous amounts of hearsay and false newsitems, making it more important than ever before to filter out the 'real' stuff.
How do you all experience the internet as used to spread information on topics like this?
My symphaties to those involved in this latter (hopefully) accident.
One off-the-cuff speculation, if this WAS terrorism, and we have idea if it was.....get ready for some serious retaliation.
>Move along. Nothing to see here.
possibly ~250 passengers as well as more on the ground have just perished, and there is nothing to be concerned about!? Even if this is just a mechanical failure and not a terrorist hijacking, it is still important!
Nuke 'em. Nuke the whole damn country. Then, start deporting and arresting all Middle Easterners from the US.
American jetliner crashes
November 12, 2001: 9:40 a.m. ET
Crash of Airbus leaving New York's JFK airport is first crash since Sept. 11.
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - American Airlines Flight 587, an Airbus A300 jetliner, crashed near New York's Kennedy International Airport just after 9 a.m. Monday as it was leaving JFK for Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic, according to the FAA.
Details of the crash, including cause or the condition of people on the plane and the ground, were not immediately available. At least four buildings were reported on fire.
A large cloud of thick black smoke was visible from miles away following the crash. Local news broadcasters in New York were quoting witnesses as saying there was an explosion on the plane before the crash.
The crash, which occurred in the Rockaways section of Queens at 122nd and Rockaway Beach Blvd, is the first involving a U.S. airliner since the Sept. 11 terrorist attack that brought down four jets. That attack prompted a shutdown in the nation's air traffic system and sharply decreased demand for air travel by the public.
American Airlines officials had no immediate comment.
All three New York area airports - JFK, LaGuardia and Newark - were closed following the crash as were all New York City area bridges and tunnels.
So, I'm about to leave the office en-route to Heathrow for a flight to JFK in a few hours time - would you fly? (that's assuming that the flight will be going ahead, which it may not..)
Serious question folks..
Q.
CNN now reporting:
DEVELOPING STORY
U.S. Air Force officials tell CNN that fighter jets were airborne over New York at time of crash.
It may not be a "real" news site, But it doesn't crash like CNN/MSNBC....
/. props just for the fact it tells us atleast something when we have no other access.
./!
The info may not be the most accurate for the first 15-20 minutes...but eventually the real info starts emerging once people start coming together.
I give
Thanks,
Sean D.
"Hmm. I am to metaphor cheese as metaphor cheese is to transitive verb crackers!"
Several European national carriers are bankrput or on the edge of it.
Whatever happened to JonKatz?
12 Buildings on fire now.
- sigs are for wimps.
Thank you, and God bless America.
For those having problems connecting to CNN.com, just a hint. asia.cnn.com. Its what us Australians are suppost to look at, even though it isn't hosted in Australia (its in the same place as www.cnn.com), except the only difference is it seems to be responding and able to handle traffic. And yes, that page lists all the world storys.
Ask the french or japanese. Whatever you do don't ask the british. Railtrack can turn a 15 minute commuter journey into a two hour nightmare, just because someones jumped on the train line or a tree has blown over or it's rained within the past week... they even slow down eurostars. The only train that makes an effort to be on time is the gatwick express, and that doesn't stop anywhere :-(
In all likelihood, George W. Bush still would have won Florida and the presidency last year if either of two limited recounts -- one requested by Al Gore, the other ordered by the Florida Supreme Court -- had been completed, according to a study commissioned by The Washington Post and other news organizations.
But if Gore had found a way to trigger a statewide recount of all disputed ballots, or if the courts had required it, the result likely would have been different. An examination of uncounted ballots throughout Florida found enough where voter intent was clear to give Gore the narrowest of margins.
The study showed that if the two limited recounts had not been short-circuited -- the first by Florida county and state election officials and the second by the U.S. Supreme Court -- Bush would have held his lead over Gore, with margins ranging from 225 to 493 votes, depending on the standard. But the study also found that whether dimples are counted or amore restrictive standard is used, a statewide tally favored Gore by 60 to 171 votes.
Gore's narrow margin in the statewide count was the result of a windfall in overvotes. Those ballots -- on which a voter may have marked a candidate's name and also written it in -- were rejected by machines as a double vote on Election Day and most also would not have been included in either of the limited recounts.
The study by The Post and other media groups, an unprecedented effort that involved examining 175,010 ballots in 67 counties, underscores what began to be apparent as soon as the polls closed in the nation's third most populous state Nov. 7, 2000: that no one can say with certainty who actually won Florida. Under every scenario used in the study, the winning margin remains less than 500 votes out of almost 6 million cast.
For 36 days after the election, the results in Florida remained in doubt, and so did the winner of the presidency. Bush emerged victorious when the U.S. Supreme Court, in a 5 to 4 ruling, agreed with his lawyers' contention that the counting should end. Since then, many Gore partisans have accused the court of unfairly aborting a process that would have put their candidate ahead.
But an examination of the disputed ballots suggests that in hindsight the battalions of lawyers and election experts who descended on Florida pursued strategies that ended up working against the interests of their candidates.
The study indicates, for example, that Bush had less to fear from the recounts underway than he thought. Under any standard used to judge the ballots in the four counties where Gore lawyers had sought a recount -- Palm Beach, Broward, Miami-Dade and Volusia -- Bush still ended up with more votes than Gore, according to the study. Bush also would have had more votes if the limited statewide recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court and then stopped by the U.S. Supreme Court had been carried through.
Had Bush not been party to short-circuiting those recounts, he might have escaped criticism that his victory hinged on legal maneuvering rather than on counting the votes.
In Gore's case, the decision to ask for recounts in four counties rather than seek a statewide recount ultimately had far greater impact. But in the chaos of the early days of the recount battle, when Gore needed additional votes as quickly as possible and recounts in the four heavily Democratic counties offered him that possibility, that was not so obvious.
Nor was there any guarantee that Gore could have succeeded in getting a statewide recount. Florida law provided no mechanism to ask for a statewide recount, only county-by-county recounts. And although he did at one point call on Bush to join him in asking for a statewide recount, it was with the condition that Bush renounce all further legal action. Bush dismissed the offer, calling it a public relations gesture by his opponent, and Gore never took any further steps toward that goal.
White House press secretary Ari Fleischer, responding to the study, said, "The voters settled this election last fall, and the nation moved on a long time ago. The White House isn't focused on this; the voters aren't focused on it." Fleischer called the results "superfluous."
Gore, in a written statement, did not respond directly to the study. "As I said on Dec. 13th of last year, we are a nation of laws and the presidential election of 2000 is over," he said. "And of course, right now our country faces a great challenge as we seek to successfully combat terrorism. I fully support President Bush's efforts to achieve that goal."
Gore said he remained appreciative of the support he received last year and "proud of the values and ideals for which we fought."
Discerning Voter Intent
Conducted by the National Opinion Research Center, an organization based at the University of Chicago, the study examined all ballots that were initially rejected by voting machines. This included those that contained no discernible vote for president, known as "undervotes," and those that registered votes for more than one candidate, the "overvotes."
Last year's recount battles largely focused on about 61,000 undervote ballots. In the recounts, Gore advisers pushed for the most liberal interpretation of voter intent, giving rise to heated disputes and legal wrangling over whether "dimpled chads" on punch-card ballots should be counted as votes.
But in another twist clear only now, the study found that where Gore had the greatest opportunity to pick up votes was not in those undervote ballots but in the approximately 114,000 overvote ballots, particularly 25,000 overvote ballots read by optical scanning machines.
Using the most inclusive standards, Bush actually gained more votes than Gore -- about 300 net -- from the examination of the undervote ballots. But Gore picked up 885 more votes than Bush from the examination of overvote ballots, 662 of those from optical scan ballots.
The study did not credit Gore with the thousands of votes lost as a result of the infamous butterfly ballot in Palm Beach County. Many voters using the ballot became confused by the listing of presidential candidates on two facing pages and punched Gore's name and one of the candidates next to him, nullifying their vote.
An examination of the Senate choices on those ballots indicates the mistakes were made overwhelmingly by Democrats and suggests that Gore lost about 8,000 votes because of the confusion. The Post study did not award those overvotes to Gore because no clear voter intent could be determined on a ballot where two candidates were marked. A similar analysis of the two-page presidential ballot in Duval County showed Gore lost about 7,000 votes, which also could not be given to Gore in the study.
Gore never pushed hard for the kind of full recount that might have brought overvotes into play. And the Florida Supreme Court, which on Dec. 8 ordered a statewide manual recount -- halted in midstream the next day by the U.S. Supreme Court -- focused on undervotes and required only that undervotes be retabulated.
Ironically, it was Bush's lawyers who argued that recounting only the undervotes violated the constitutional guarantee to equal protection. And the U.S. Supreme Court, in its Dec. 12 ruling that ended the dispute, also questioned whether the Florida court should have limited a statewide recount only to undervotes.
Had the high court acted on that, and had there been enough time left for the Florida Supreme Court to require yet another statewide recount, Gore's chances would have been dramatically improved. But there are too many variables in any effort to reexamine the ballots -- from varying standards in judging ballots in the counties to problems of getting an exact replication of the overvote and undervote ballots -- to be able to say with absolute certainty what might have happened in Florida.
"In my opinion, it's too close to call," said Kirk Wolter, senior vice president of NORC. "If we take it as given that two major candidates were separated by perhaps a few hundred or fewer ballots, it may be that we'll never know the exact vote total."
Historical Record
Designed to provide a historical record for one of the most remarkable presidential elections in U.S. history, the ballot study was launched early this year by a consortium of news organizations and originally was to have been completed by last spring. Consortium members, in addition to The Post, included the New York Times, the Associated Press, CNN, the Los Angeles Times, the Wall Street Journal and four Florida newspapers: the Orlando Sentinel, the Palm Beach Post, the South Florida Sun-Sentinel in Fort Lauderdale and the St. Petersburg Times.
"We joined the consortium to obtain an accurate, nonpartisan assessment of the uncounted ballots in Florida to determine how the people of Florida voted and why their voting systems did not work better," said Post Executive Editor Leonard Downie Jr. "The results shed light on the actions of the players in the constitutional drama in Florida. They also provide information that can help the federal and state governments improve voting systems nationwide. And they will help historians better analyze a unique and important event in American history."
Various technical problems delayed the study, including the difficulty county officials had in separating the disputed ballots into undervotes and overvotes. The events of Sept. 11 set back publication further because news organizations were devoting all their resources to coverage of the terrorist attacks and subsequent events.
The project used impartial observers hired by NORC to examine the ballots and considered many possible alternatives for tallying the votes. But no study of this type can accurately recreate Election Day 2000 or predict what might have emerged from individual battles over more than 6 million votes in Florida's 67 counties.
Three individuals, operating independently, examined each undervote ballot and some of the overvote ballots. However, most of the overvote ballots, which are less subject to different interpretation over their markings, were viewed by one person. The Post's findings are based primarily on results in which two of the three reviewers agreed on the marks on the ballot, deemed a fair standard for discerning what was on the ballot.
The new study differs from an earlier ballot examination by the Miami Herald and USA Today, which did not systematically look at all overvote ballots, instead relying on a computer analysis of those ballots. In that study, one person, usually an accountant, determined marks on individual undervote ballots. A second person also looked at the undervote ballots, but the accountant's coding was always used if they differed. The study concluded that Bush would have won under almost all situations.
The NORC observer teams hired by the consortium did not decide whether the undervote or overvote ballots would have been counted as valid votes in a recount. Instead, they worked independently, using a coding scheme to describe the marks on each ballot under supervision of a NORC team leader.
The study projects possible election outcomes based on different scenarios -- which ballots might have been included in recounts and what marks on those ballots might have been considered as votes.
On ballots from punch-card machines, such as those used in the South Florida counties where Gore asked for recounts, these marks included a dimpled chad, which is the appearance of an indentation, or chad with one or more corners detached.
On ballots from optical scanning machines, the marks included instances where a voter circled or wrote in the candidate's name rather than filling in an oval next to the name on the ballot.
The Post, in conjunction with the other news organizations, reviewed the descriptive codes to apply different standards for determining voter intent and tallied results based on several scenarios that sought to approximate conditions on the ground in Florida.
The three examiners agreed most of the time, but Post analysis of ballot swings caused by disagreement showed more than enough votes to decide the election.
The Winner
Bush was certified by the Florida election canvassing commission as the winner by 537 votes Nov. 26. That certification came after Gore had asked for recounts in Volusia, Broward, Miami-Dade and Palm Beach counties. But it included full results from only Volusia and Broward, which met the state's 5 p.m. deadline.
Palm Beach County submitted its final results about two hours past the deadline, but Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris declined to include them. Officials in Miami-Dade halted their recount days earlier, amid GOP-inspired protests, claiming they would not have enough time to meet the state's deadline.
Had all four counties completed their recounts, as requested by Gore, and been included in the state certification, Bush still would have been declared the winner, but by just 225 votes, according to the analysis by The Post and other news organizations.
The Florida Supreme Court's Dec. 8 order for a statewide manual recount of all undervote ballots also would have resulted in Bush as the winner, the study found. Gore's team protested when the U.S. Supreme Court on Dec. 9 agreed to the Bush campaign's request for a stay, halting that recount in midstream. But the study found that a count of all undervotes in the state would have left Bush ahead of Gore by 430 votes.
Some counties ignored the state Supreme Court order that weekend and refused to conduct manual recounts. Other counties included undervote and overvote ballots in their recounts. The media consortium surveyed the counties to determine what standards they were using. On the basis of those standards -- the closest approximation possible to what was happening that weekend -- the Post study found that, if the court had not intervened to stop the counting, Bush would have won by 493 votes.
But the results in Florida and, therefore, in the presidential election might have been different had the 67 counties been ordered to proceed with a manual recount of all undervotes and overvotes.
Under several scenarios examined by the consortium, and using a standard in which two of the three reviewers agreed on the markings on each ballot, Gore emerged with more votes than Bush.
The overvotes that could have provided the margin for Gore were on ballots where voters tried to be extra-clear in their choice and ended up nullifying the vote. They filled in the oval next to a candidate and then filled in the oval for "write-in" and wrote the same candidate's name again.
Those overvotes were rejected by machines, but some county officials examined those ballots on election night to reclaim the votes. Other counties, though, didn't check for those obvious votes. Gore had more than 500 of those votes in Lake County and more than 250 in Escambia, netting him gains of 172 and 157 votes against Bush in those counties.
The narrowest margin, according to the study, came under a scenario in which at least one corner of a chad was detached from punch-card ballots -- the prevailing standard across the state of Florida at the time -- or any mark on the optical scan ballots showing clear voter intent. In that case, the study showed Gore with 60 votes more than Bush.
Gore's margin grows under three other scenarios. Under the least-restrictive standard for interpreting voter intent, which counted all dimpled chads and any discernible optical mark (which in the case of optical ballots Florida's new election law now requires to be counted as votes), Gore had 107 more votes.
Gore's margin rose to 115 votes in the study under a tighter standard, calling for chads to be fully punched and a more restrictive interpretation of what constitutes a valid mark on optical scan ballots.
But this is one case where disagreements among the reviewers affected the outcome. Gore won under this scenario when two of the reviewers agree on the markings. Under a standard in which all three were required to agree, Bush won by 219 votes.
Gore's largest margin in a statewide recount involving all ballots comes under a scenario that sought to recreate the standards established by each of the counties in their recounts. In that case, Gore emerged with 171 more votes than Bush.
© 2001 The Washington Post Company
Probably they sabotaged the plane... After all, you don't need to be in a plane to make it fall. But don't jump to conclusions... It might have been the local mafia just as well... This disasters can be used to make a lot of money...
This crash reminds me a bit of a crash that happened years ago in Amsterdam, when an engine fell from a 747 cargo plane after take-off. The plane then tried to return to the field, but crashed in a flat because the broken off engine also caused major damage to the hydrolics system. There should be plenty voice comunication here between tower and plane for some information.
The only thing odd, is that it was an Airbus A300, not a Boeing A300(as stated on the CNN website). Airbuses don't have a perfect track record, but as far as i know, nothing with engines falling off. (it seems the NTSB database is even slashdotted now). But an A300 isn't exactly state of the art anymore.
Time wil tell.
It doesn't look like a terror act. If it would they've could simply choose another place to maximize the damage.
Don't say No, say May be
what is a level one emergency? Is that a bigger or smaller emergency than level two? Anyone know about this sort of thing?
After all, if nobody thinks that this could be terrorism, why is every NYC area airport closed? JFK, LGA and EWR are all fully operational at the moment, but have been forced to close. That is not standard procedure. Or at least it wasn't before 11 Sep 2001.
Better yet...
http://www.silohome.com/index.htm
According to www.annanova.com, the FAA has ruled out terrorism as a cause of the crash.
didn't know about this.
Eyewitness reports on BBC Radio 5 report hearing an explosion before it went down and claim fighters alongside plane before crashing.
NEW YORK (CNN) -- An American Airlines jet with 255 people on board crashed Monday on takeoff from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport. The plane went down at 9:17 a.m. EST in the Rockways section of the New York City borough of Queens, about five miles from Kennedy Airport. CNN confirmed the plane was American Airlines Flight 587 from New York to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. The plane was a Boeing Airbus A300. The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said the plane was carrying 246 passengers and nine crew members. Asked if terrorism was suspected, Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Bill Schumann said, "All options are open at this time. We have very limited information." The Pentagon said surveillance fights were going on in the area and nothing unusual had been spotted. At least four houses were on fire, and a huge plume of smoke could be seen rising from the site. The New York Fire Department dispatched 44 firetrucks and 200 firefighters to the scene. All three New York City-area airports -- Kennedy, LaGuardia and Newark -- closed after the crash, along with all the city's bridges and tunnels. Mayor Rudy Giuliani declared a Level One emergency, mobilizing all available police, fire and emergency personnel.
"All I can tell the "lesser of two evils" folks is that if they keep voting for evil, they'll keep getting evil."-Lp.org
CNN's European site is working fine.
From a local TV station's site -- often a good secondary source of info when the big boys get overwhelmed.
t ai l.html
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/1069613/de
American Airlines Plane Crashes In New York
Four Homes On Fire
POSTED: 9:30 a.m. EST November 12, 2001
UPDATED: 10:13 a.m. EST November 12, 2001
NEW YORK -- An American Airlines Airbus A300 crashed Monday morning in the Queens section of New York, and four homes reportedly were on fire in the neighborhood in the Rockaway section of Queens.
The plane crashed shortly after 9 a.m. ET, and thick, black smoke could be scene in televised reports. It was reportedly headed to JFK, but the origin of the flight was undetermined.
Bill Schumann of the Federal Aviation Administration said there was no immediate indication of what caused the crash. He said the plane could hold up to 275 passengers, and crashed about five miles from Kennedy Airport. There were 246 passengers and 9 crewmembers aboard the flight, according to CNN.
Asked if terrorism is suspected, Schumann said that all options are open at the time and they have very little information. Defense officials said that while combat jets were flying over the sky as is routine, there were not any reports of suspicious activity or distress calls.
Television images show thick black smoke rising from the scene. The smoke was seen turning white, which could indicate that the flames were being put out.
Fox News Channel reports it was an American Airlines flight 587. All three New York City airports were closed to air travel. They include LaGuardia, JFK and Newark airports.
Mayor Rudolph Giuliani has canceled his morning events and is heading to the scene.
FAA said American Airlines Flight 587, an Airbus A300, crashed. It was on its way to Santo Domingo Dominican Republic. CNN reported that the engine came down separate from the rest of the jetliner and that Giuliani confirmed that there are two separate crash sites. A witness said he saw an explosion on the side of the plane.
It was a "level 1" emergency, which means all emergency personnel are advised to go to the crash scene. All the major tunnels heading into New York have been closed.
Reports have varied throughout the morning. The FAA said there seems to be no indication of a terrorist attack.
A witness said he saw debris falling from the sky, at the scene of today's plane crash.
He told the Fox News Channel that four homes are on fire.
Another man told CNN that he was 40 blocks away, and saw "tons and tons of smoke." He said, "Lots of people are standing in the streets.
A woman who lives near the scene of the crash said she heard the engines of a plane -- "loud and low" -- before the crash.
Phyllis Paul told CNN she looked out the window to see a "silvery piece of metal" falling from the sky, several blocks away.
Then, she said, she heard an explosion.
She said she and her son went outside and saw the black smoke rising from the Queens crash site. She said it was "horrifying."
Paul said the sound of the plane gave her a "chill" -- because of what happened on Sept. 11.
The flight was an American Airlines jet, which had taken off from Kennedy Airport -- several miles from the crash site. It was headed to the Dominican Republic.
The crash came two months and a day after the attack on the World Trade Center.
The American Airlines phone number relatives information line is (800) 245-0999.
Lurking peacefully since 1997
You figure they'd have fixed this since the last time
Is this the same Rockaway Beach immortalized in the Ramones song of the same name?
from sknews.co.uk
Plane Crashes In New York A plane has crashed into a residential area of New York. It is understood the plane was an Airbus A300 and suffered engine failure shortly after taking off from JFK airport. Reports say the aircraft may have been carrying up to 246 passengers when it plunged into homes in Queens. The jet, thought to be flight 587, was heading to Santo Domingo in the Dominican Republic. There are reports the plane hit a number of homes near Rockaway beach. One eyewitness said pieces of the plane were falling off mid-air. "I saw a large piece hit a hood of a car," one women told Fox News. "It seem to fold and fall onto a residential area," adding that she initially thought the plane was a Concorde. F16 fighter jets are now in the skies of New York - the incident comes two months after the US terrorist attacks on the US. Security chiefs said there was no evidence of terrorist activity but all airports in New York have now been closed as a precautionary measure. Bridges and tunnels have been closed The city has also been put on the highest state of alert. A huge plume of smoke is rising above the New York skyline as the wreckage burns. The Dow Jones dropped 200 points as news of the crash reached the markets. Early reports said the plane was a Boeing 767 - the same type which crashed into the World Trade Centre.Do Unto Others As You Would Have Others Do Unto You - ONLY HARDER!
I just got up, and saw this on the news. My parents flew out to Arizona this moring (from Logan), but it took 35 minutes for the freakin news station to say where the flight had originated. My parents flew American Airlines. Thanks to the slashdot team for posting the info. I feel horibly for any people who lost their lifes in this today. I pray that this was not yet another terrorist attack.
Um, this is my sig.
Midwest radio, local to me, said it was a Boeing 767?
guess someone is wrong.
Info on the hardware involved at http://www1.airbus.com/products/A300.asp if you can get the site to respond. you can try www2 instead, is equaly bad for me, it will get worse with some /.ing
Maybe you live in interesting times
When US airlines get their fake engine parts from dodgy people who aren't qualified, disaster comes :-(
If this is the case, it was predicted several years ago by a major magazine (I can't remember if it was businessweek or time or newsweek) that did an investigation.
That's exactly how I feel about the matter, only I've never been able to formulate it that well. Thanks!
This sig under construction. Please check back later.
10:19 Eastern Standard Time, 11/12/01
Jet Crash in NYC Borough of Queens
ABC News
Plane Down Near JFK Airport
N E W Y O R K, Nov. 12 _ An American Airlines jet departing from John F. Kennedy International Airport crashed in a heavily populated section of the New York City borough of Queens at 9:17 a.m. ET, emergency officials said, and there was no report on the number of passengers and crew on board.
The jet, an Airbus 300, departed JFK at 9:15 a.m., officials said, when it crashed into an area populated with many homes and businesses. The American Airlines web site said Flight 587 was headed for Santo Domingo in the Dominican Republic. The plane crashed near Beach 129th Street and Newport Avenue, in the Rockaways section of Queens. There were no reports of injuries at the scene.
Thick black smoke could be seen billowing above the crash site for miles and several buildings were said to be on fire. Emergency crews raced to the scene.
Harriet Cohen, a Queens resident who lives near the airport and about 10 blocks from the crash site, said she was eating breakfast in her home when she thought she heard the Concorde leaving the airport. After hearing a terrible bang, she told her husband: "Oh my, I think it must have broken the sound barrier." But then the house shook, Cohen said. "I looked outside, and 10 blocks from us, there was black thick smoke rising up into the sky."
Minutes after the crash, all three New York City-area airports _ Kennedy, LaGuardia and Newark _ were closed. Airports in Washington, D.C., remained open.
The incident comes two months after two hijacked jets rammed into the World Trade Center in Manhattan killing about 4,500.
An explanation of how the U.S. got involved in violence: What should be the Response to Violence?
Bush's education improvements were
At least this time it is not as big of a site. On Sept 11, I could see tsmoke cloud from my back yard.
FWIW, from the news here, it is NOT a terrorist action, but an accident. If it WAS a terrorist action, it would not be a direct hijacking but mechanical tampering.
~Steven
outside NYC
and pricks and cocks and penises
Plane Crashes In New York
A plane has crashed into a residentialarea ofNew York.
It is understood the plane was an Airbus A300 and suffered engine failure shortly after taking off from JFK airport.
Reports say the aircraft may have been carrying up to 246 passengers when it plunged into homes in Queens.
The jet, thought to be flight 587,was heading to Santo Domingo in the Dominican Republic.
One eyewitness said pieces of the plane were falling off mid-air and flames were seen on the right hand side of plane.
"I saw a large piece hit a hood of a car," one women told Fox News.
"It seem to fold and fall onto a residential area," adding that she initially thought the plane was a Concorde.
F15 fighter jets are now in the skies of New York - the incident comes two months after the US terrorist attacks on the US. They were believed to be in the sky when the plane crashed.
Security chiefs said there was no evidence of terrorist activity but all airports in New York have now been closed as a precautionary measure. Bridges and tunnels have been closed The city has also been put on the highest state of alert.
A huge plume of smoke is rising above the New York skyline as the wreckage burns.
The Dow Jones dropped 200 points as news of the crash reached the markets.
Early reports said the plane was a Boeing 767 - the same type which crashed into the World Trade Centre.
http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,317684-412 ,00.shtml
A few more details. Little bit better than Yahoo's blurb.
bluB
Cloudkicker
mirrors of news websites here
Click10.com has live video, mirrored by akami.
Text:_ crash_dc_1.html d ex.html - PLANE.html n id=GX1YUYCNLN1WQCRBAE0CFFAKEEATGIWD?type=topnews&S toryID=365206 7 84-2001Nov12.html a p-plane-crash1112nov12.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnatio nworld%2Dheadlines
y News/STREAM1_video_popoff/index.html
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011112/ts/plane
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/12/newyork.crash/in
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/nyregion/12WIRE
http://www.usatoday.com/hlead.htm
http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml;jsessio
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,38565,00.html
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-
Video:
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/popoff/Dail
"TK-421, why aren't you at your post?"
Here is a 300K Broadband Live News link to BBC
/ bb c1099/ads/default/bbc_default.asx?cmd=engage&asxty pe=adonly&site=bbcx001&area=ent&rate=350
http://bbcx001.ontarget.media.ibeam.com/netshow
got it from windowsmedia.com =]]
American Airlines jet crashes in New York
November 12, 2001 Posted: 10:06 AM EST (1506 GMT)
Smoke rises Monday morning from the crash site in Queens, New York.
NEW YORK (CNN) -- An American Airlines jet with 255 people on board crashed Monday on takeoff from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport.
The plane went down at 9:17 a.m. EST in the Rockways section of the New York City borough of Queens, about five miles from Kennedy Airport.
CNN confirmed the plane was American Airlines Flight 587 from New York to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. The plane was a Boeing Airbus A300. The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said the plane was carrying 246 passengers and nine crew members.
Asked if terrorism was suspected, Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Bill Schumann said, "All options are open at this time. We have very limited information."
The Pentagon said surveillance fights were going on in the area and nothing unusual had been spotted.
At least four houses were on fire, and a huge plume of smoke could be seen rising from the site. The New York Fire Department dispatched 44 firetrucks and 200 firefighters to the scene.
All three New York City-area airports -- Kennedy, LaGuardia and Newark -- closed after the crash, along with all the city's bridges and tunnels. Mayor Rudy Giuliani declared a Level One emergency, mobilizing all available police, fire and emergency personnel.
Here's the flight tracking info from Flytecomm. Please don't kill my server. Thanks.
Thats what Ananova are saying here anyway.
Special Relativity: The person in the other queue thinks yours is moving faster.
If it indeed turns out that the plane crashed from a bird flying into the engine, we must react with swift and deadly force. No longer can birds, or the countries that tolerate their presence, hide from the justice they deserve.
Thank you, and God bless America.
Nice to know that it takes approximately 2 months for tasteless jokes about the greatest tragedy on American soil to get modded up...
Whatever caused the incident, there are many dead and injured, but glad you have managed to keep perspective on this.
Passenger Jet Crashes in Queens, NY
NEW YORK (AP) - An American Airlines flight that had just taken off for the Dominican Republic crashed Monday, and buildings reportedly were on fire in the Queens section of New York City.
Flight 587, an Airbus A300 that can hold 275 passengers, crashed shortly after 9 a.m. and thick, black smoke could be seen miles away. There was no report of the number of casualties, either on the plane or on the ground.
Thick, black smoke could be seen miles away from the crash in the Rockaways section of Queens.
The crash came two months after the attack on the World Trade Center, which was destroyed by two Boeing 767s hijacked out of Boston's Logan Airport. One of the planes was operated by American, the other by United.
Bill Schumann of the Federal Aviation Administration (news - web sites) said there was no immediate indication of what caused the crash. He said the plane crashed about five miles from Kennedy Airport.
All metro area airports - Kennedy, LaGuardia and Newark - were closed following the crash, in Rockaway, Queens. The Office of Emergency Management said all bridges and tunnels in the city were closed except to emergency vehicles.
Planes were being diverted, and Delta Air Lines spokeswoman Peggy Estes said the airline was working to account for all its planes.
The mayor canceled his morning events and headed to the scene.
One eyewitness reported debris falling from sky, and told the Fox News Channel four homes were on fire.
Another told CNN he was 40 blocks away and saw ``just a lot of smoke. Tons and tons of smoke. You can see emergency vehicles heading to the area. Lots of people are standing in the streets. It's very tense.''
Do Unto Others As You Would Have Others Do Unto You - ONLY HARDER!
I've read several comments here regarding hijacking. Supposing this is a terrorist attack, it is very unlikely that they would even consider hijacking. With all of the new security measures in place, such a hijacking would be nearly impossible.
I've read reports that an engine fell out. If this is true, sabotage is what we should worry about. If these terrorists were smart enough to plan the September 11 attacks years in advance, then we should assume they are smart enough to have people working at airports all over the US.
At this point we can only hope that this is not a terrorist attack. If terrorism is the cause (for example, by means of sabotage, as I've suggested), then this may raise even more security issues than the WTC attacks.
:(
Reuters have just reported that the FBI have arressted a mechanic who worked on the Airbus before takeoff.
"Making linux GPL was the best thing I ever did" - Torvalds. I'd hate to see the worst thing...
He was looking for ass in New York
http://www.bbc.co.uk/
has a link to a realmedia stream.
Dosnt show the event itself, but shows the smoke coming up, and has a 15 minute report
0101100101101111011101010110110101110101011100110
Not to harp, but the article said the plane was a Boeing Airbus A300. As other posters have said, we need to wait and sort this stuff how. Bad as it may sound, lets hope this was an accident... The media have a REALLY bad habit of reporting without checking the facts. Boeing (US company) is a competetor of Airbus (multinational european company). If they cant even get the most basic facts straight, why would anyone believe their posturing and theorizing.
The ivory tower has never had to reach so h
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Thanks slashdot, your coverage is crucial!
I hope I'm overreacting a bit here.. there's something about this that's giving me the chills. I really hope this is 'simply' a case of pilot error, or a simple electromechanical failure.
Proteus' Child
Doko ni datte; hito wa, tsunagette iru.
For those of us at work who don't have a TV in front of us, you can join CNN net and join the #newsfeed channel for the latest news. Misspellings aside, it's up to date info.
Seriously, this reinforces my conviction that aircraft safety & security is going in completely the wrong direction. Why focus so heavily on trying to prevent very specific types of incident? Why not simply design aircraft on the assumption that they're going to crash (by accident or design), and build them to keep as many people alive as possible?
For example - there are parachutes, built for jet airliners, capable of safely bringing even a 747 or 757 to a safe(ish) landing, assuming enough altitude to slow the monster down.
Another example - if a package holding eggs can be dropped from the top of the Empire State Building, and have the eggs intact at the bottom, you can figure that we know a lot about air resistance with various topologies, and that we know how to make a decent bubble-wrap. It should be possible to design an aircraft skin capable of absorbing significant amounts of energy, in the event of an impact.
Lastly, aircraft are not built out of the safest of materials. Aluminium (aluminum for USians) burns with an intense ferocity. Those who remember the Falkland's War (damn it, it was a WAR, not a "Conflict") will remember the HMS Sheffield, which was built out of aluminium. One direct hit turned it into a giant, inescapable fireball. Many fireworks, and even some modern munitions, use aluminium as a component. Sure, it's light, but so are many other materials. Maybe it's time to change.
We've entered the 21st century, with aircraft that are practically designed to explode on someone sneezing the wrong way, with no possibility of survival. As ideas go, this does not sound like the brightest there has ever been.
Of course, maybe I could be wrong. Maybe people enjoy riding oversized firecrackers, with a bazillion mad-men around the world desperately wanting to light the fuse.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
This is the ananova writeup.. :P
President Bush will surely wish you a good night and tell you that he was right after all. None less than that. Of course stay alert, but also keep an eye on your beloved president
I feel sorry for all victims and all security people. Lots of internet news sites (at least here in The Netherlands) are DDoSed *again*. Has anything changed since two months ago?
From Ananova
Ananova :
Terrorism ruled out as cause of Queens crash
Terrorism has been ruled out as a cause of the Queens air crash.
Up to 246 passengers are thought to have been aboard the American Airlines Airbus A300.
All New York area airports have been closed following the crash, in the Rockaways area of Queens, a residential neighbourhood under the JFK airport flight path.
Bridges and tunnels into New York have also been closed but the Federal Aviation Authority has ruled out terrorism as a cause.
The organisation earlier stated that the cause of the crash is not known, although there are reports the jet suffered engine failure.
Washington says US Air Force patrols over New York received no calls before the crash.
Fighters have been flying over the city's skies 24 hours a day since September 11. Crews have been told they must be prepared to shoot down any hijacked civilian aircraft if ordered to do so.
The passenger jet had taken off from John F Kennedy Airport - five to 10 miles away, when it crashed into buildings and burst into flames.
Mayor Rudolph Giuliani has joined rescue services at the scene. At least four buildings are said to be on a fire. One witness reported debris falling from sky and told the Fox News Channel that four homes were on fire.
Another told CNN he was 40 blocks away and saw: "Just a lot of smoke. Tons and tons of smoke. You can see emergency vehicles heading to area. Lots of people are standing in the streets. It's very tense."
An insider, possibly a mechanic, rigged the engine with a bomb. Now I'm going to stretch this a bit and say that there might have been actual hijackers on the plane, and that they were forcefully taken down... but the engine bomb still went off.
Oh well, that's my theory.
Hammer of Truth
Reuters just posted that a JFK machanic has been arrested who worked on the Airbus before takeoff.
"Making linux GPL was the best thing I ever did" - Torvalds. I'd hate to see the worst thing...
It was an Airbus a300...
26X people on board...
9 crew.
I hate relaying bad news.
www.npr.org has a RealAudio/Quicktime/Windows Media feed.
Absurdity: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion. -- Ambrose Bierce
It takes weeks to find wreckage and figure what causes plane crashes (remember Flight 800 to Paris) ANyone ruling out ANYTHING right now is either a blatent falsehood OR propaganda meant to calm the American People
Jesse Wolfe Sr. Manager Systems Integration
On the other hand, JSTAR and AWACS crews are generally good because they dont have to ever be in a life or death combat situation where the 'combat' portion of the Farce is too busy demanding their a/c's are fixed along while they eat tea, crumpets and sit in their recliners having their brunch prepared by chefs. pansies... and ironically they think of themselves as the Military... hehehe, what a joke
To make us all feel more secure and better, at this point, lets just nuke these assholes. Put that in your pipe and smoke it liberals.
So I tried the BBC which I consider just as, if not better, at reporting then the american journalists.
Airbus crashes in New York
Last Updated:
Mon Nov 12 10:30:50 2001
NEW YORK - A twin-engine American Airlines airbus A300 has crashed in the New York
borough of Queens, leaving at least four homes on fire. No word so far
of injuries, or what caused the crash.
INDEPTH: U.S. Striking Back
LINKS: Websites related to this story
CNN says the plane had 246 passengers on board and nine crew members.
Smoke from the crashed 767
The network says flight 587 was on its way to Santo Domingo in the Dominican Republic when it went down at about 9:15 ET, about eight kilometres from Kennedy International airport, in the Far Rockaway neighbourhood. Plumes of smoke can be seen rising from the site.
The city's mayor Rudy Giuliani says there are two crash sites, one where
the engine hit and one where the plane hit. He has called a level one security alert, which means all security personnel must report to the
area.
He said the city is taking all the necessary precautions and called on
people to remain calm.
The plane crashed in a residential section of
Queens
The crash comes two months and a day after the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. The FAA's first advisory said there was no indication that terrorism was a factor, but it later said it was too early to say one way or another. Pentagon officials told CNN that
surveillance flights over New York detected nothing out of the ordinary
prior to the crash.
Emergency crews are setting up command posts and forty-four fire trucks
and 200 firefighters have been sent to the scene.
Frightened residents fled their homes in panic after hearing the crash.
Some witnesses say there appeared to be an explosion or fire on the
plane's right hand side before it hit the ground.
All New York airports have been closed as well as the bridges and
tunnels in and out of the city.
COMMUNITY PROFILE (filed Oct 2001): Recovery in Rockaway
Initial reports said the plane was an American Airlines Boeing 767,
however, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administer later confirmed the plane
was an Airbus A300.
More details to come.
Written by CBC News Online staff
www.cbsnews.com has a real video webcast that seems to be working.
CNN eyewitness account...u s. crash.1211.wav
http://europe.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/11/12/
here's a link to the msnbc coverage: http://www.msnbc.com/news/default.asp?cp1=1
WWLUG: Feed the penguin.
CNN live closed captioning is available at #CNN_Newsfeed at chat.cnn.com.
http://archive.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/nyregion/12W IRE-PLANE.html
Or for the lazy ones
New York Times (archive)
Wouldn't a "routine" (cringe) plane crash be easy to determine by the conversations going back and forth with Air Traffic Control? I'd figure a simple radio call with "Oh crap - we've got an engine on fire - attempting emergency landing" would be very soothing (well, in light of recents events) to the nation at this point.
Or Bush?
As all the major news portals seem to be struggling under the load, check www.ananova.com - it's up, fast and stayed alive during September 11th. They seem to be up-to-the minute with their information too.
----------------------------------------
Religious war: fighting over who has the real imaginary friend.
i live in brooklyn, and i was glad to see that the sky was full of fighter jets with in 5 minutes rather then the hour+ on 9-11. i know in actuality it doesnt really help anything, but it makes the lot of us feel a little more secure, at least as secure as you can with 5000 lbs of bombs wizzing over head
--rock me like a huricane? NO rock you
Try #CNN_Newsfeed on chat.cnn.com:6667 for a live feed of closed-captions off CNN.
..working as the ground crew at NYC airports, I have my money betting that it was a mechanical sabotage or bomb.
it's too early to speculate about terrorist attack/accident/whatever. however, this won't change the facts: people will be afraid of flying for a long time. which means more plane companies layoffs. which means PERHAPS some troubles regarding economy..
..and THIS makes the terrorists' game. fear, and (as the name tells) terror is their play. solution? since you cannot run away from a plane crashing, nor from a virus spreading, keep doing whatever you do. if something happens, well, at least your job could have helped someone. and you cannot escape anyway.
and as my grandfather used to say, "a bomb never hits the same crater twice". So I figure that the 'most dangerous' places are now the most safe.. there are so many places to hit all over the world, the terrorist probably won't hit the most surveilled ones again, since the chances to succeed are few.
ok, I'm speculating again. but my idea is still the same: keep working, keep living, keep thinking with your brain. terrorist attack or just fear, what's the difference? you personally cannot fight either.
-- There are two kind of sysadmins: Paranoids and Losers. (adapted from D. Bach)
This article does not seem to suggest *where* they got this FAA Information. Secondly, the FAA never makes the call this fast. The most they might say is "it appears to have been engine trouble" and that would be information they got from the pilots through tower contact. And, even if it *is* engine problems, it doesn't rule out sabatoge, or explosives.
And how did I get an offtopic out of this? Offtopic? WTF is offtopic about what I wrote? I stated what I knew.
Insightful, not really but it was a positive vote. Thanks.
Overrated? Well, I suppose so. That's an opinion and you're entitled to it. Offtopic and redundant is just wrong.
If you'd rather not dork around trying to cut and paste it all into your browser See streets here At this writing it's slow.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Hmmm, the United Nations security council meeting's agendawas addressed to confronting the terrorist threat, the current conflict in afghanistan and organising the post-taliban regime. How far is the UN from the crash site already?
Swagman
I wanted to see the news at CNN.com, but it refuses. Haven't they learned from the last tragedy, that their server would be down since tons of people would come to browse their websites to see the urgent news? What are these websites for anyway? I know that watching CNN on TV is certain, but I don't have the environment to watch them. (I live outside USA) I tried to watch other news websites, but was impossible also. Does this means that people have to watch TV instead of website(s) to see such serious news that people would read almost simultaneously?
like urban housing, it seems that there are many who do not care or understand the importance of MAINTENANCE and upkeep (which includes personel as well). The reason I mentioned urban housing is because it is a perfect example how a very well meaning initial desire can be turned around to work against that desire if you put in people that care little about results and simply are there to fill their portion of the process. The government wants to do this with airtravel now. Learn from mistakes, do not let your hatered, ego and agenda cloud your judgement.
Well said Sean. And I totally agree with you 100%. To be honest I wouldn't have known, since I have been been reading other things, but /. seems to be up to handle the traffic. Also it's not like /. posts news 100% of the time, so it's ok if once in a while it happens to inform us /. readers.
Jet Crash In New York City
1 387
"An American Airlines jet crashed at about 9.15 am Eastern Time on Monday near JFK airport in the Far Rockaway area of Queens, New York," reports The Financial Times. "Buildings are on fire in the neighbourhood and emergency services are at the scene, near 129th Street and Newport Avenue."
"Smoke can be seen rising from a residential area near John F Kennedy Airport," says The Telegraph. "The cause is not yet clear."
More news on the What The Papers Say website as it happens.
more: http://www.WhatThePapersSay.co.uk/news.asp?dnid=1
Also, here at the bank, Reuters ust came through with a report that the FBI have just arrested a mechanic who worked on the Airbus before takeoff.
No link at present, but it'll be on the news sites any second.
"Making linux GPL was the best thing I ever did" - Torvalds. I'd hate to see the worst thing...
You're correct of course. The FAA have now reverted to saying "all options are open."
Special Relativity: The person in the other queue thinks yours is moving faster.
Markets decline on crash news
By RICHARD BLOOM
Globe and Mail Update
Monday, November 12, 2001
Dow posts triple-digit slide; Nasdaq loses as much as 2 per cent; TSE sheds nearly 100 points
The major North American indexes sat in negative territory Monday morning as investors reacted to news that another plane had crashed in the New York area.
Word surfaced shortly after the opening bell that a plane had crashed into Queens, New York -- a burough of New York City.
American Airlines confirmed shortly after the report that it was one of its flights -- an Airbus A-300 -- en route to Santo Domingo, Dominican Repulic from New York's John F. Kennedy Airport.
A total of 254 people were on board, Associated Press said.
At 10:20 a.m. EST, Dow Jones industrial average fell 179.42 points to 9,428.58, as 29 of its 30 components sat in the red. Shares of Honeywell International Inc., General Electic Co. and American Express Co. posted the sharpest declines. Only Johnson & Johnson sat slightly higher, at last check.
Shares of AMR Corp., the parent company of American Airlines, were off $2.48 to $15.65 (U.S.).
The tech-heavy Nasdaq Stock Market's composite index was down 29.33 points to 1,799.15 while the broad Standard & Poor's 500-stock index declined 17.95 points to 1,102.36.
On Bay Street, the benchmark Toronto Stock Exchange 300-stock composite index dropped 66.79 points to 7,142.90, boucing off an earlier morning low of 7,110.90
I can't recall the flight number off the top of my head, but I remember reading an NTSB report of a crash near Anchorage where one of the engines literally fell off the wing.
Either way it's terrible, but I have to concur with the people who are saying this is a "real" crash.
irb(main):001:0>
As usual, there's panic-dumping. Stock prices are down because people are being stupid. Despite fear, uncertainty, and doubt running amok, little is different from yesterday, in the big picture.
So here's deliberate, appropriate action: grab dropping stocks! Prevent further damage to the economy, take importants assets out of the hands of incompetent handlers, and make a little something for yourself.
Hello,
I am getting a flow of information from different sources and posting them on planenews.com
Gil.
PGP public key at: http://keskydee.com/gil.asc
The reports coming into CNN are saying that one of the engines (left or right, the reports vary) was on fire before the crash. So, barring sabotage, I don't think this was an act of terrorism.
Please don't crash the plane into the ground if you have overcome the hijacker. We need to capture the hijacker alive to ask information from them.
That's not necessarily wierd. People tend to think that if a two-engine plane loses one engine, it can just use the other to get to safety. One engine is a huge loss, especially on takeoff. The airplane won't be able to gain altitude (at least not quickly), and the plane will tend to veer in one direction. Depending on what point in the takeoff and climb-out the engine failed or fell off, the plane may have stalled (lost lift) and been too close to the ground to recover. NPR reported that this plane was in a 60 degree dive when it hit, so that is entirely possible.
Here's an aerial photo of 122nd and Rockaway: click!. The intersection, I believe is just east of the large building.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
Well, if the engine fell out of the plane, it was probably an accident. Not for sure, of course, but i don't see how Hijackers could do that.
It might have been sabotage though...
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
We all need to stop and take a few steps back. The events of the last 2 months have taken this country to the brink of hysteria and back. The mainstream press is in a feeding frenzy. They are reporting any rumor that they can get their hands on, all in the name of boosting ratings. Take a look at the last Presidential election and you will see that the self-control that the press once had has disappeared. We cannot allow their drive for money to turn us into a country full of "Chicken Little's" waiting for the sky to fall.
Stop, take a breath, and realize that things like this happen. If we allow ourselves to continue down this road, we will accomplish what no country on this planet has been able to do, bring the US to its knees. People are paralyzed by fear, and the press is feeding this fear. It is time to stop.
Yes, it is terrible when people die, but it happens everyday. Worrying about it will not change it. I believe we should find the people responsible for terrorist attacks and bring them to justice, but not at the cost of our freedom, which is where we are headed. I have heard more members of the press and the government shouting for "National ID Cards", increased security at all public functions, COMDEX banned bags from the convention floor. All of these steps are doing the terrorist work for them. If we allow these criminals to alter our way of life to the point that we cease to function, or regulate ourselves into and Orwellian nightmare then we may as well lie down and die.
Live you life as you always have. Go to work, raise your kids, spend your money, and be happy until given a legitimate reason not to be. Out of all the posts on this site, how many are from people directly affected by 09/11, who either knew someone who is missing, or has family that lost a loved one. The rest of us need to feel sympathetic to the victims and their families, but we should also feel grateful that we are alive, living in the best country on the planet, and act that way.
http://robots.cnn.com/ works fine, seems they have learned a thing or two about load balancing at CNN.
Any news on how the OPEC countries are hurting from the lower use of their product?
Rich
Reports says an engine exploded. This could be a heat seeking missile from some loose F16, what do you think ?
It now sounds like both engines actually fell off the plane. This makes terrorism a possible option again.
I was watching the news, and I believe I heard them say that one of the engines fell into someone's boat in the backyard.
Many people seem to think that by being fearful of a possible terrorist attack we are letting the terrorist win. After a recent plane crash in Queens, NY there has already been some talk of terrorism and the fear of terrorism, even though there is no evidence at this point to support a terrorist attack. As I think about this I am reminded that, "A concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that [are] real and immediate [is] the process of a rational mind." Now I don't know that there is always an immediate threat of terrorism, but there is a danger that is real and more immediate now than ever before. A concern for one's safety then is rational, but I keep hearing that if you are rational and concerned for your safety to the point where it affects the way you live then the terrorist have won. If you are not concerned for your safety then you are ignorant, and you probably believe the lie that having concern for your safety does in fact mean that the terrorist have won. So if we are rational people then the terrorist have won and if we are ignorant of what is going on around us then they have not won?
I think that there is no relationship between the terrorist winning or losing and our concern for our safety. The only way in which the terrorist have won, is in confusing people in to thinking that having a rational concern for their safety is illogical. Living your life as if nothing has happened is illogical. The fact of the matter is that "a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that [are] real and immediate [is] the process of a rational mind", and so this concern which has been fueled by the terrorist attacks does not mean that the terrorist have won. It means that we are logical, competent people who are concerned for our safety. The terrorists are not logical, competent people (and probably have no concern for their safety). The terrorists have only succeeded in confusing and angering the American people, and they are the ones who now should have a concern for their safety. They are in fact facing real and immediate danger.
-Christopher Mark Beelby
Quotes from Catch-22
No worries, this is just a good-old-fasioned crash, a couple hundred dead, blah blah blah.
This is pretty clearly sabotage, either a bomb in a suitcase or some insider on the maintenance team. Maybe they'll think a little harder about implementing some real security measures now.
I'd bet CNN did it to test out their increased bandwidth measures from the last time this happened. It didn't work.
For the latest rumor, speculation, and knee-jerk "lets blow the durn (insert favourite minority group here) terrorists" reaction, I always turn to Slashdot first.
When I want to find out the real story, I always wait at least 6 hours after the incident when all the falsehoods are proven so and the truth finally sees the light of day and breathes freely.
I've seen video footage of engine failures resulting in total destruction. The engines don't seperate from the wing. They're designed so that the plane can keep on flying even with total engine destruction.
Total engine destruction is the fan blades seperating. Imagine 100 blades rotating at 1000s of RPMs flying in every direction. The engine case takes the beating without the wing being damaged. The engine is destroyed but the plane keeps flying.
I don't know what this was, but it wasn't like any mechanical failure I've ever heard of.
http://kered.org
Even in peacetime, 35000 people die in automobile accidents on US roads every year. That's the same level of suffering as the WTC attack every two months and yet nobody bats an eyelid.
It really looks like some people like that karma stuff;
*turns head slowly side to side in disgust/disbelief*
Don't forget there are other sites where you can post info and News, especially with news coming out so slowly.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
...Apparently, a total of twelve buildings were hit by the debris in a total of two crash sites -- "one where the plane landed and another
where an engine landed(CNN)."
That's kind of a funny way to word it. No matter what the cause turns out to be, it's fairly certain that we've seen the (bitter) end of American Airlines. Also, it appears that the death toll here will once again be horrific. Planes will also be grounded in JFK and La Guardia for at least a week. Fellow NYCitizens; prepare to rebook flights out of Islip, which is much too cold and dull to properly conduct terrorist attacks.
Without jumping to any conclusions, it does strike me as odd that such a thing would happen on Veteran's Day. A smattering of eyewitness reports so far indicate a mid-air explosion. Stay tuned.
News for Nerds == News. 'Nuff said.
sulli
RTFJ.
Here is a live video feed. 56K, 100K, and 300K Real Video.
Can all fish swim?
Don't know if this will be useful to anyone, but there have been several other crashes involving this same plane. Here's a link to a report dealing with this. -cobweb
||:|::
i think you'll find that that comment is actually his signature rather than part of his comment. i dont think he was suggesting that it was a non-event.
Any plane loaded with fuel will ALWAYS be a giant firecracker! Until people are willing to ride in planes without fuel, they will be dangerous...
...Even if a plane were constructed out of some impact-resistant uber composite material, what about that 50,000 gallons of fuel? All it takes is 1 spark or a little heat and BOOM!
And fitting planes with parachutes? What happens to the passengers when this giant parachute deploys at 600 mph? Bags and people flying all over the place, getting killed...what would happen if it accidentally (or deliberately) deployed?
Instead of criticising airplane manufacturers for rediculous reasons, why not ask the obvious:
1) Why can't they put x-ray machines in airports for checked luggages so people don't put bombs in them?
2) Why can't airlines maintain their aircraft so the engines don't fall off?
Think, man.
"Chill, Orrin!"---Trent Lott
Occam's Razor says that this crash too was a terrorist attack, caused by some freak carrying plastic explosive in his suitcase. What are the chances that a fully-fueled American Airlines jumbo jet would just happen to crash into a residential area of New York City at a time like this? What's the most likely explanation?
But it doesn't matter what the cause was, either way the terror of flying will multiply.
We have been given us a new freedom: freedom from security.
There are NO such parachutes. Let's do some real simple calcs. I believe a standard human parachute is 28 feet in diameter, for a human weighing 200 pounds. A fully loaded 747 is around 800,000 pounds, 4000 times as much. Let's see, square root of 4000 is roughly 64, and 64 * 28 = 1770 feet -- ONE KILOMETER!
Are you so nuts as to think that practical?
And do you think it could be deployed at several hundred miles an hour without shredding?
Dropping an egg is one thing, an airline entirely difefrent. A egg has a pretty low terminal air velocity because of the weight per surface area. Comparing this to an airliner is like saying an ant can fall safely, why can't humans? Even cats have a sufficiently low terminal velocity that once they fall past 10 stories or so, they don't fall any faster, and they still don't have a great survival rate. Let's give that cat the density of an airliner and see what happens to the terminal velocity.
Now as to material. The HMS Sheffield DID NOT BURN due to aluminum. It burned because the Exocet has an explosive warhead which scattered and ignited the remaining rocket fuel. It was not a giant inescapable fireball. Jeez, your hyperbole is incredible.
It's easy enough for you to worry about aluminum burning, but what does that have to do with airliners burning? Hey! It's the FUEL that explodes and burns, not the structure! Maybe we should all fly naked too, so our clothes won't contribute to the fire.
As for arbitrarily increasing the weight by getting rid of aluminum, common sense ought to inform you that they use expensive materials for a reason. Don't you think that if they could make heavier cheaper planes that they would? There's no secret airplane cabal conspiring to jack up the prices just to keep the bauxite miners employed. Man, they fret over new seat materials to save a pound per seat.
As for airplane design not being the brightest ideas out there, sounds to me like they've got you beat at any rate.
Infuriate left and right
People are harping on not jumping to conclusions but let's look at the facts:
There've been 12 Airbus crashes since 1988 (1 of those was during a engine failure simulation). None of them were landing or flying from the US (bbc article here).
New York is obviously a major target for air terror. If you consider the probabilities, the most likely is an act of terror. Just my 2c.
i hope so, but..
if an engine came off before the crash [which could be caused by or cause the explosion] that's damned unlikely. twa800 and that dc10 years ago are the only similar events i can think of right now.
more likely that instead of trying the harder method of hijacking and aiming an airliner at a building, just explode one on takeoff from NY. the area and amount of gas involved will have the same effect post sept11: terror.
i'm not fear mongering: the way to react to terrorism is to face it and remain calm.
that's not easy. it's not meant to be easy. it's the only answer though.
hard times. speak truth to power.
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
This is a rather unfounded theory, but it's possible to imagine this.
The fourth plane that crashed on sept. 11 was about 5 minutes away from the closest nuclear plant on its course to DC. It, too, had an engine break off and crash in a separate location. The government has been very secretive about that crash. There is data that a fighter was following it at the time of the crash, and based on that we can only theorize what really happened.
It is possible to think that this plane was hijacked, not responding, and a fighter was dispatched to take it down. The credibility of this theory would largely be defined by verified data about the plane's route before the crash - if it suddenly changed its course after going some ways over the water, this would be credible.
The same mode of failure as the Penn plane may indicate the same fate: a Sidewinder missile (IR-guided) will target an engine and rip it off the wing; also, a cannon (the "cleanest" way to take it out) would probably also be shot at the engine/wing.
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This might be another way of killing Bin Laden. Right now I figure he's somewhere near laughing himeself to death at this overreaction. Please remamber that plane crashes happen, and this one does not have any of the hallmarks of terrorist action.
all of the security in the world isn't going to stop murphy's law fromm causing the occasional f*ck up. Flying is still safer than driving, but reading the news may cause a heart-attack if you attribute every tragedy to terrorism.
Let investigators do their job. In the unlikely event that they determine this to be of terrrorist cause, then we can take the appropriate actions
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
To save bandwidth for everyone and improve response times, please don't go to the BBC's high-graphics front page. Go directly to their low-graphics news page.
This way, you not only save bandwidth on the page you want to see, but you avoid wasting bandwidth and server hits on the pages you don't want to see.
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
News release on media's recount of presidential vote swamped off the radar by the stories on NYC air plane crash.
Other stories crushed by it include war news like nukes and bio/chemical weapons in Afghanistan.
On the other hand, it's a great time to buy cheap stocks.
I hear that the plane crashed near Beach 128th and New Port.
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought.
WCBS-2 (local TV station in NYC) is reporting that all bags on this American Airlines flight were screened before being loaded on to the plane. This is not standard operating procedure, but since 9/11, it is being done occasionally on a random basis.
Also, another NYC TV station (not sure which one) said a little while ago that the pilot of this flight DID perform a visual pre-flight inspection -- walking around the plane to look for obvious problems.
www.thebravest.com has live stream of FDNY Radio. I cant get anything now, im sure due to heavy traffic, but maybe someone will have luck.
Don't Tread on Me
However, through your statement all you are doing is spreading fear. Simply by doing that you are *helping* terrorists, as spreading fear is (by definition) their main objective.
Their main objective is to get america to leave their countries - you need to change your definition.
This was a flight that was destined for the Dominican Republic and other destinations in the Caribbean. According to FAA reports, the plane was booked to capacity and may well have had all it's booked passengers on board.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
There are several reasons to assume that this was a bomb.
1) Credible warning of another terrorist attack from Nov 7-14 issued a few weeks ago.
2) It was an international flight loaded to full capacity with gas.
3) Luggage on international flights out of jfk are not required to be scanned for explosives.
4) Wing and fuselage crashed in two separate sites, meaning a great force must have seperated them.
Im not saying we can be sure 100% that this was a bomb, there are several strong indicators that it was.
One Captain Marchessi was interviewed live over the telephone on Spain's national television, TVE. He said (and I am paraphrasing here) that Airbus planes are designed to survive the loss of an engine, and that pilots are trained for precisely such an eventuality; therefore, he believes, it is unlikely that the loss of thrust alone would have caused the plane to crash. (To his credit, he declined to speculate further despite pressure from the reporter.)
Now, can somebody tell me whether the phrase "the loss of an engine" in this context could mean the physical loss of the engine? Or is it just an idiom meaning "the loss of an engine's thrust"? I mean -- are these planes really designed to account for the possible dettachment of an engine?
Two thoughts on this:
1) Most of the sites are probably more available today than on 9/11 because today is a holiday in the US and many people are not at work. Not being at work means they have reduced Internet access(read: dialup) in most cases, but abundant access to TV. My guess is that most people are at home watching it on the tube today.
2) Sites like BBC (Brits aren't on holiday today) have gone into reduced-bandwidth mode with limited graphics. This is to support the extra load created by the sudden increased in hits.
What can happened this accident (FBI says that there was an explosion on the airplane):
A technical failure.
A engine sabotaje.[May be Difficult because the airports security]
A bomb in the airplane. [May be Difficult because the airports security]
A ground-air weapon? (Like russian airplane)
...but I specifically remember people criticizing all of our efforts to beef up passenger security in airports while neglecting to beef up tarmac security. It was said that nearly anyone can get on the tarmac, and anyone who can pass the test can become a mechanic, often times with no background check.
It seems more likely to me that if this is a result of terrorst activities, it was done as an inside job. Our own press probably gave them the idea.
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
As nasty as this sounds, it isn't without precedent. In the late 70's, I forget the year, an engine fell off of a Lockheed L1011 at 30,000 feet. Killed everyone... most heinous crash. The maintenance guy who put in the bolts installed them in the wrong order after the engine was removed for an overhaul.
Worst Airline ever.
I ran across this on John Young's Cryptome--it's a great read, and helps make sense out of the terrorist attacks, and some of what might be going on. It even comments about the possibility of attacks before Ramadan.
http://cryptome.org/alqaida-game.htm
Note I currently think this was "just" a plane crash.
...I live in Rockaway, bitch...
1 -- I worry b/c the plane originated from Boston
2 -- I worry b/c today is 11-12
3 -- I worry b/c Mike Moran said
4 -- I worry b/c I am in the Travel industry and my company nearly went out of business on 9-12
But all in all accident or attack my company is fucked.
This
Now, I love a conspiracy theory as much as anyone, but this plane did not come down the same way. For starters, this one came down in a heavily populated area on a penninsula. Had the plane traveled for another 45 seconds (or even less?) before going down, it would plop into the water. (Unless of course, it turned and was headed toward land.)
Also, from what I gather right now, it had only been in the air for 2 minutes. I find it hard to believe that any Air Force jets could get information that the plane was compromised, get into position to fire, and verify that the plane was a legit target before firing within that timeframe. Then again, I am not an expert on these things so perhaps anything is possible.
I knew something was wrong when I woke up this morning and none of the news sites were picking up. There was this awful ping of complete and total fear where I literally felt my heart fall into stomach... something was wrong.
I ran downstairs and turned on the TV and saw the breaking news. I now know, whenever cnn, msnbc and abcnews ALL don't pick up... and then ny1.com doesn't either... that something awful has happened again in New York.
You've still more chance of winning the lottery than dieing in one. Speak for yourself, but I'm planning on winning the lottery. I'm staying out of the sky.
IMO bin laden claimed responisbiliry yesterday so perhaps that was a signal
Forget about using the major networks... get your info from the sources:
Reuters Last 25 Articles
AP Wire
Any others?
Davak
http://www.carotids.com
A commercial jet is able to withstand the physical (separate) and thrustwise loss of an engine. In fact, aircraft engines are designed deliberately to "fall off" from the wing. Imagine for the sake of argument, that the turbine blades are turning at around 10,000 RPM. Now, stick a Canadian Goose in front of it, so that some of the blades break of an jam the engine so the blades no longer turn. Can you imagine how much momentum (gyroscopic) that these blades have? Suddenly stopping them instantaneously would create so much of an impulse that the engine will twist itself right off. No damage is done to the wing (less some drag) and there is plenty of thrust from N2.
The tricky part is, if (as is in this case) the engine explodes, THEN falls off, there is likely damage done to the wings (likely the flaps on takeoff as may be the case here) and possibly the hydraulic systems, etc.
Bottom line is, the plane can withstand flying literally without an engine, but any collateral damage can change the situation.
The higher, the fewer.
The financial times is coping well and has good coverage.
The BBC is coping well too now that they have switched to light mode
Since the latest reports seem to suggest that there was a mid-air explosion before the plane came down, people might be interested in reading this notice from the FAA requiring that modifications be performed on Airbus A300 series aircraft in order to eliminate a possible cause of fuel tank explosion. Judging by the dates on the notice -- effective September 10, modifications must be performed within 18 months -- I'd guess that many planes haven't been modified yet.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
Read more at the Times of India
-Shaunak.
Boston.com (http://www.boston.com) is reporting:
LATEST UPDATES: The FBI is investigating reports from eyewitnesses that there was an explosion on the plane while it was still in the air. AP says the pilot did not report any trouble before the crash, but CBS reports that a United Airlines pilot heard the American Airlines pilot tell traffic control he was having mechanical trouble.
Logan Airport is open, but there is no service to New York. Some international flights are being diverted from N.Y. to Boston.
Every time I see the title "Another Plane down" I think it is yet another one.
Pls change the title.
With the present financial difficulties for airline operators, it seems highly probable to me that severe cost cutting will have swiftly resulted in reduced aeroplane maintenance and fewer safety checks.
Futhermore money diverted into increased security is money diverted from day-to-day operations. The current climate of fear in the US probably makes accidental crashes more likely.
Programmers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your strings.
Accrding to this site, an average of 110+ people are killed every day in automobile accidents - and we never give that a second thought.
National Highway Traffic Saftey Association-Fatal Accident Reporting System
My prayers go out to all the families affected by this :(
I dunno about that... I don't live anywhere near NYC, and talking to real people (i.e. not listening to people on TV) I haven't heard of anyone actually being scared. If you look at the big picture, there really isn't much widescale "terror" to the terrorism; the country is just too big.
Get away from the northeastern USA, and the only way the terrorism is really affecting most people's lives, is the reaction that it has provoked from the government. The actual plane crashes themselves are just Yet Another television thing.
That must sound really weird or insensitive to New Yorkers, I guess. But it's true.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
If you're so f'n smart, how do we support and fix these social ills? By propping up nice regimes? Is there such a thing as a nice Gov't in that part of the world? Is there anything that even resembles a real Gov't in that part of the world, and not some spoiled oil princes on polo ponies?
Nice totalitarian leaders and kings?
That is the problem with that part of the world. Yes. We'll start addressing that problem. Once YOU find us a way to easily do it. Considering that the CIA, FBI, Interpol, all the nations of the world, and the people who have studied Arabic cultures all of their lives can't find a way to reason these people into peace. Yes, there has to be another way. You're a fucking idiot.
Free unix account: freeshell.org
(I mean, really. Nice view from up on that high horse?)
If you want more security on airplanes, arm the pilots. Or even better yet, let those citizens with concealed carry permits carry their defense with them onto any airplane.
Or don't you trust "ordinary Americans?" And if you do not trust them, why? Is it possible that the American government has indoctrinated most Americans with the idea that they are helpless and that only the Federal government can solve their problems?
And if you are not an American, what expertise do you have that makes you an authority for Americans?
The IPCC has purposely engineered a massive scientific fraud.
What if one or two of the stinger missle launchers that the US provided the afgans, years ago, made it back to the US of A on a freighter ship? What if the best place to launch a missle is when a plane is taking off? What if Stinger missles lock on to engines?
Then it wouldn't be a bomb...
Holland has had it's share of planes falling from the sky.
0 ,9 171,1107990322-22329,00.html
Details about todays crash are hard to find but it reminds me of the 1992 bijlmer crash. A cargo plain lost 2 engines and crashed into a building.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/intl/article/
From the link above:
The basic facts surrounding the Oct. 4, 1992 accident are not in dispute. The Boeing 747-200F, carrying three crew, one non-commercial passenger and 114 tons of freight, took off from Amsterdam's Schiphol airport at 6:21 p.m. en route to Tel Aviv. Seven minutes later, both starboard engines ripped loose from the wing. The pilot circled back toward the airport to attempt an emergency landing, but the crippled craft came down in the predominantly immigrant neighborhood of Bijlmer, 13 km east of Schiphol. In an October 1994 report, the Netherlands Aviation Safety Board blamed the crash on mechanical failure due to faulty engine mountings.
Yeah, right. Maintenance is not a cost center? The bean counters know it is, and those at the bottom of the Pacific do too.
Didn't some firefighter at that recent NYC benefit concert challenge Osama Bin Laden to come "kiss my ass - come get me - i live in Rockaway Beach, Queens..."
i'm sure it's just a coincidence but spooky nevertheless...
One: it was heading for the dominican republic. Why do you post inaccurate info you lifted off cnn/yahoo? Theyre not slashdotted. We can read ourselves, you dont bring anything new or useful why are you modded up to f----ing five?
Here are some photos
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/news/queens/imagI tried to time(1) wget from some newsservers..(only the mainpage html)
www.slashdot.org 1.070s 80.16KB/s
www.cnn.com 0.695s 42.53KB/s
www.nytimes.com 0.935s 108.31KB/s
www.bbc.co.uk 0.851s 227.54KB/s
www.aftonbladet.se 0.291s 325.28KB/s (Swedish news)
www.msnbc.com 3.099s 39.75KB/s (a few 302 which generates extra code)
news.yahoo.com 1.218s 65.56KB/s
results are the best of a few tries...
guess this isn't so scientific but you can get a picture of it..
since i'm located in Sweden it's no big surprise that the Swedish and Uk servers handles my requests fastest.
/K
get serious!o ma.us
this is not the badlydriven.noservice.planes.disasterreport.oklah
(real people(=outside US) are reading, pls show some respect, or then i'll post an article about ukrainian train hitting a cow, by accident)
It's full of factual errors.
Donald Rumsfeld said that we're unlikely to catch Bin Laden.
Bin Laden doesn't matter that much, what matters is that Al Queda is destroyed. Bin Laden will probably be killed, an if not his ability to function will be severely restricted and he will no longer have a friendly national government to protect him.
Many members of the Taliban are no longer in the Taliban and will never be caught
We are only at war with the Taliban in so much that they are Helping Bin Laden. Individual Taliban solders didn't have anything to do with the bombing of NYC. If they defect from the Taliban then they are no longer protecting Bin Laden. So who cares? What matters is that we destroy the ablity of Al Queda to harm the US. Not kill everyone we don't like.
Neither Bin Laden nor the Taliban are Afghani.
The Taliban are pashtoon(sp?) Pashtoon is a large ethnic group in Afghanistan. Many people in Afghanistan identify themselves by their ethnic group. The Taliban was mostly educated in Madrassas (religious schools) in Pakistan, but came originally in from Afghanistan.
We are bombing innocent civilians who happened to have the misfortune of being invaded by people who attacked the US as well
It is unfortunate that civilians are being killed, but so far there have only been forty eight confirmed dead civilians. The vast, vast majority of individuals killed in Afghanistan have been members of the Taliban.
Hundreds of thousands, even millions of Afghanis died in the years of strife. The civilian toll caused by our actions are far less then the 'status quo'. Remember, the Taliban kills people for shit like using a computer or adultery. If the taliban is overthrown, there is a possibility that the number of people killed could be made up for in a year or two.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Does anybody want my American Airlines recently bought tickets for free?-)
American Airlines - prior target.
:(
NYC - prior target.
Outbound flight loaded with fuel presumably.
I've heard their was a meeting of a bunch of arab leaders to discuss the fate of Afghanistan at the UN.
I've also heard (CBC) that Rudy Giuliani (sp?) and Pres Perwez Musharef (sp?) were to tour Ground Zero more or less at the time of the accident.
Also the district where things landed is a shopping district - another symbol of capitalism.
And the eyewitnesses have reported seeing flames from the planes sides. I'm imagining a bomb or a bit of sabotage could easily have caused such an effect.
According to an aviation expert from the USA, interviewed by CBC, the Airbus has a very good safety record and there haven't been (with US carrier's Airbuses anyway) any accidents of this nature.
Now, this doesn't prove anything. In fact, it doesn't even produce a convincing allegation. But it is certainly an interesting combination of facts. If it is mechanical failure not caused by any hostile agency, then it is just an ugly coincidence and NYC is just having more than its fair share of horrendous luck.
I'll be anxious to see how this all comes out in the wash.
And I extend my sympathies to anyone affected directly by this tragedy. Regardless of how it came to be, it is quite horrific.
Tomb
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
Yeah, losing one engine is not a problem as long it only involves loss of power. Physical separation is extremely dangerous for flight characteristics change instantly and pilots don't have much time to react to this ( specially on takeoff.)s html.
Physical separation of engine is what caused the deadliest crash in US history. Read about it at http://www.airsafetyonline.com/indepth/ayers/191.
On the radio just now, some dude in New York was being interviewed and said he saw a truck with a thing sticking out of it like a missle.
This raises the possibility that the plane was shot at from the ground.
Obviously major news organizations will not report this, even if it turns out to be true. Did anyone else hear this report?
Reality has a liberal bias
Please understand that there is no logic or reason to be employed with a party that recognizes neither logic or reason. There aren't any WORDS that are going to stop a radical zealous lunatic from killing you. You have to end this threat by killing it, otherwise it will continue to kill your people.
Maybe we should all fly naked too, so our clothes won't contribute to the fire.
I think this should become an immediate FAA enforced regulation. Like all regulations it must be highly restrictive and have details such as:
Only woman over the age of 18 will fly naked. This will reduce the amount of combustable clothing by roughly 50%.
Those woman of excessive age or weight will be distributed a brown paper bag approximately 6' tall made of recycled materials upon baggage check in.
Any woman uncomfortable with being nude will be given a selection of clothing as part of the cost of their plane ticket that includes thongs, g-strings, teddys, etc.
Extremly bitchy, feminist woman will be gagged and put on patrol in the cargo area to check for bombs.
Men who insist the above rules are too sexist will have to join their female partners by wearing raw fire-proof fiberglass insulation outfits with floppy ears and a tail.
These regulations will serve an added bonus of distracting terrorists and relieving tension on flights. Furthermore, it will contribute to the overall wellness of our economy as middle-aged men by the thousands will begin purchasing round trip tickets to random locations as well as drinks on those flights and the occasional hotel room during layovers.
No. A better analogy is: "if someone car-jacks your sister and drives off a cliff, should you shoot his mom?"
Should we have not fought the Civil War? [or WW2 or Revolutionary War]Afghanistan in 2001 is much Much MUCH more like Vietnam in 1961 than it is like Europe in 1941 or America in 1861. Think about that.
This post is so full of factual errors it's astounding.
But someone already addressed them all before me.
I'm just suggesting a new moderation category.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
With all the technology we have now, how come we are still looking for that stupid black box? How come the information that is in the black box is not routed wirelessly directly to the airport control towers?
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought.
+1, Funny cuz baby Osama said so.
Maybe this crash is a bug: there *were* 255 people on the plane...
// something horrible
const unsigned char NOT_A_PLANE = 0xff;
...
if (pcount == NOT_A_PLANE) {
}
Yeah, right. Glad I don't write avionic software.
This [salon.com]article is saying that GW is now meeting with his advisors about whether or not there is enough of a chance of this being a terrorist attack that it warrants shutting down US airspace again. At this time, they have made no decision on the matter.
My personal thought on the matter is that the only way we are going to know if this was a terrorist attack is:
A) Somebody claims responisbility (not too likely)
B) Another plane goes down
C) The NTSB comes back (after a couple of weeks) and says it was a bomb
It seems to me that the government is either just going to have to wait and see if it happens again before they make that decision OR, they could shut everything down and start searching engines for bombs, but, in light of the fact that there is no evidence that this is terrorist-related, isn't shutting it all down giving in to terrorism?
I agree. I have a freaking Athlon 1Ghz with 768MB PC133 RAM and lots of these news sites take shitloads of time to load on my system. Too much crap! Tragedy was bad, but the site was actually good that day.
It was the Space Shuttle that crashed!!! If terrorists can infiltrate NASA then none of us are safe!
http://firehouse.com/news/2001/10/25_FHkiss.html
Check it yourself if you don't believe.
"FDNY firefighter Michael Moran touched more people than he could know with his words to Osama bin Laden at last weekend's benefit Concert for New York.
He summed it up for everybody when he spoke his message to bin Laden: "Kiss my royal Irish ass!"
Moran's words drew wild applause from the crowd, and have continued to draw attention from others as the media spreads his story.
The firefighter said he was sitting in the audience at Madison Square Garden,shortly before his turn to go up on stage to introduce a band. While he waited, he kept thinking about how much he wanted to say something for those that he lost in the September 11 attacks: his brother Battalion Chief John Moran, 12 firefighters from his own Ladder 3 and Battalion 6, and about 20 players from the fire department's football team.
He said his now famous quote comes from an old expression used in his neighborhood of Rockaway, Queens, which he hasn't spoken in a very long time. But the phrase popped into his head Saturday, when the time was right."
There is audio too.
it would be very irresponsable for us to jump to any conclusions. So nobody should be saying that it was, or was not, a terrioist attack.
Its true that planes do crash, and it is possible that this is a conicidence. But given the recent events, it would be just plain dumb to not take into consideration terriosm.
The AirBus A300 is a very reliable aircraft, and has been in use for 30 years.
We need to take the time to look at the facts, once the smoke clears.
"Flee at once, all is discovered."
Kinda hard to do much more when the Taliban are SHOOTING at the airdrop planes, and confiscating (where they can) what little there is to feed soldiers...
There is very little we can do while we are at war and the Taliban (who does NOT care about the Afghani people) is still in control.
Oh yeah - The Taliban make shit up (counting military deaths as civilian, denying damage, etc.), but you would believe them over the US I suppose.
We do need to bomb the crap out of them, and send in ground troops to clean up what's left. If we don't, these terrorists will just keep at it forever, killing innocent people everywhere.
Oh yeah, they want to kill YOU too, not just our government, because of what you represent. They don't care what you actually believe.
Perhaps they've set their servers up to switch over to light content automatically during traffic spikes (wouldn't be very hard to do).
http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-10-22/News_and_Vie ws/City_Beat/a-129389.asp
As opposed to?
well since an engine fell a little while before. I'd assume the cause would be lack of an engine.
That'll do it, y'know.
-2 troll, -1 flamebait, +1 insightful, -1 overrated
wtf? does somebody not know the definition of `troll`?
Airliners can often/usually survive the loss of an engine - but obviously, the loss of an engine during take-off is much worse. There's also a huge difference between an engine shutting down for whatever reason and an engine exploding and falling off - the second will cause all sorts of damage to the control surfaces, wing, etc.
Soo... how come no one's talking about Stingers yet? Is everyone taking those 5-point don't-jump-to-conclusions posts seriously? Gimme a break, those are karma whores, through and through. Speculation is where the fun is.
Here's something to think about, even if it turns out to be completely unrelated to what happened today: the resistance against the Soviets had shoulder-launched SAMs. They were trained how to use them, and used them effectively.
Commercial aircraft take off on very predictable routes. It should be pretty easy to find an optimum firing position within a few miles of an airport, and park your car. You can study the pattern for weeks if you like. Then a plane goes right over your, you open the trunk, take out your Stinger, and shoot the slow-moving low-altitude plane (with nice hot engines at full takeoff power) in the back.
Total security checkpoints you had to go through: zero, except when you smuggled the US-made SAM back into the country. (Or maybe you can even make your own right here -- the Sidewinder budget in the 50s was supposedly really low, and stuff that was cheap in the 50s is nearly free today). And you can do the shooting so fast, there might not even be any witnesses.
Defending against that sort of thing is going to be tricky.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
The Lottery kicks ass!
While the timing of the crash (just after takeoff) does seem to indicate some kind of mechanical failure this might not be the case. If a bomb was hooked to an altimiter (altimeters work off air pressure) set to explode at a certain altitude and it was placed within a pressurized cargo hold the pressurizationg of the hold might have detonated it. An explosion in a cargo hold next to a fuel line might have caused the line to light causing the burning engine that was reported. Alternatively in light of the footage of the concourd with an engine on fire the blowing out of the airbus's engine may have been an act of sabotage. \
Steve
We've got some reliable linkage online here. Check comments there for further updates.
Got Rhinos?
Just curious...
... that one freaked me out for a while
T
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. - George Best
1. What happened to the Sept. 11 cockpit crew conversations with air traffic control?
2. Where was military surveillance of U.S. air space on Sept. 11?
667th comment. So don't blame the devil.
Live you life as you always have. Go to work, raise your kids, spend your money, and be happy until given a legitimate reason not to be.
No, we haven't been programmed to be happy little consumers, have we?
The A300 was the first (and only?) passenger aircraft which is entirely under software control. This is know as "fly by wire", where mechanical controls have all been replaced by a data bus, sensors, and actuators. One possible problem is that if software developers didn't anticipate every failure mode, an unexpected loss of critical sensors could cause the control software to become confused, causing a further spiraling loss of control. Investigating failure in an A300 can not discount the contribution of software failure.
I live in new york.. can the planes go drop somewhere else for once
Just saw a press release about the News search feature on Alltheweb. Very handy, now that cnn.com is down (at least it has been for me during the better part of this day...)
Check out this news search for 'queens plane crash'. Hit #1 was updated 27 minutes ago. A tragic day with another tragic event, but a nice discovery that I wanted to share...
Sandman
No, we haven't been programmed to be happy little consumers, have we?
Beats the shit out of the alternative programming choices out there.
Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
Just wondering, is a SAM really necessary to bring down a taking-off A-300? Or could you do the same with a high powered rifle on a take-off situation. (you'd have to be a damn good aim)
Sean D.
"Hmm. I am to metaphor cheese as metaphor cheese is to transitive verb crackers!"
I (in a wierd way) almost hope it is terrorist related. If it is, world opinion will almost strenghten for the fight against terrorism. Nations that were cold toward each other will become closer. People with moderate/extreme views will be ostrasised(spelling). If not, ObL will just claim his cause is just, because Allah also dropped a plane on NY.
Our thoughts go to those in NY
I heard that they threatened to fill our restaurants and stores with fatty foods and to start selling little sticks of flammable plant products that they will use to poison us with choking gas.
Now I hear about all of these people dying of heart attacks and cancer, and it must be those damn terrorists again!
Best. Comment. Ever. Enjoy!
This horrible event is not a coincidence. It is the 3rd wave (Anthrax scare being the second) of a well coordinated attack by Al-Qaeda. The similarities to September 11 are obvious. Attack a large airliner, fueled for a long flight, early in the morning, in a densely settled area so as to produce maximum damage. The cause was almost certainly a bomb with a barometric trigger. I hope this quells the silly talk about slowing the attack during Ramadan. We need to smoke these fools in big way.
Live you life as you always have. Go to work, raise your kids, spend your money, and be happy until given a legitimate reason not to be.
No, we haven't been programmed to be happy little consumers, have we?
Why do you assume that by coming to this conclusion you have to be a brainwashed product of the media? Is it far fetched that one might come to this conclusion on thier own after weighing against many alternatives?
Can't people go to work, raise kids, spend money, and be happy in addition to being generous with thier time and money for those less fortunate or for a legitimate cause?
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
This was probably the results of a shoulder-launched missile. A plane right after takeoff would be most vulnerable to this type of attack, and the type of breakup reported is consistent. My guess is they used and old Stinger missile that was given to them by the old Reagan or Bush administration.
Several times in your Anonymous message, you indicate it is okay to kill innocents (future soldiers, entire cities) in pursuit of your own country's goals. You are unprincipled, arrogant, and cruel. Sound like anyone we know?
Telling someone they should kill themselves because you find their speech annoying... it really points to how much diversity in opinion you are willing to tolerate, doesn't it?
Reply with your name next time. Coward.
I knew the Bushies would pull some stunt today to take attention away from the revelation that Gore won the election, but this is just sick! Shame on you Ari Fleischer! You people are despicable!
Oh I see...
Now Bush will try to bomb Airbus factories because they "bombed" NY...
How about searching for "bomb" on this list:
Airline disasters 1920-2000
Now which seems the greater likelyhood to you - accident or terrorism? YOU do the math!
This may be a little of topic, but please bear with me. I have been trying to get any news about the crash on all the major news websites. Thank goodness for Slashdot. All the other "news" organizations are swamped. One would think, in this age of the internet and the relatively cheap hardware out there, that the major news sites would be able to handle the traffic of a serious disaster. Remember 9/11? Did they learn nothing from the sudden influx of traffic? People want to know what is going on. These sites claim to be news leaders. Yet anytime there is a serious need or desire for news, the site goes down.
Sorry I had to vent.
We've got your news coverage right here.
Got Rhinos?
Then is this the worst they'll do? Now, I know blowing up planes or crashing them into buildings is quite horrific, yet I thought, if this is a terrorist attack, they'd go further? Not that I am striking fear into you guys, but maybe they would have done something like releasing Small Pox (that isn't an unlikely scenerio by the way).
Also, do you think that they missed their target? Crashing into Queens is pretty bad, yet I don't think there was an intention to crash there and I beleive there was an intention to crash somewhere else.
That is, if it is an act of terrorism.
The plane was carrying 246 passengers and 9 crew.
The Dominican Republic claimed that 150 of the passengers on the flight were its citizens.
Both statements were cautioned as 'preliminary'
Reading through the comments, all I can glean is that you people are sick, sick, sick!
This is obviously a tragic accident. Even if there might have been some doubt in the beginning, it is now clear that this was an accident. Yet, Slashdotters continue to spew their conspiracy theories and wild accusations and assumtions. Is it not terrible enough that 255 people died, horrible deaths in a tragic accident? Must you fan the flames and sensationalize this terrible event? Must you spew your rediculous political rhetoric and ignorance?
You people are sick. Try showing a little respect for the dead and some compassion for the surviving family members.
an engine fell from the plane some distance from the fuselage.
Uuhh... clear this up?
Why bother.
I work in the airline industry and around here every bagage is at least screened using X-rays. If it doesn't get explosive it at least catch electronical device. And "opaque" bagage are set aside for torough checking so forget using a X-Ray stopping cover to hide anything.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
For an airworthiness directive of this magnitude, Airbuses should have been grounded until they were fixed. Note the addition of this clause:
/only/ reason a faulty plane would be in the air is if it was on its way to be fixed. It wouldn't surprise me, however, that people would fly these things without being compliant; I'd expect that somebody's going to loose their FAA ratings.
(c) Special flight permits may be issued in accordance with sections Secs. 21.197 and 21.199 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR 21.197 and 21.199) to operate the airplane to a location where the requirements of this AD can be accomplished.
This means that the
io hymen hymnaee io
io hymen hymnaee
And by looking at the [negative] score of what you posted in the past, you are most likely doing that right now. Instead of trying to fuel hate fire, how about making well constructed opinion post ?
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Why were there two crash sites?
k .c rash.gallery/12.jpg
CNN has pictures of two crash sites and they state one is from the plane and one site is the engines...
"American Airlines Flight 587 crashed on takeoff in the New York City borough of Queens. Two hundred firefighters and 44 trucks were dispatched to the scene of what New York Mayor Giuliani says are two crash sites -- one of the plane and one of an engine."
If you look at the engine's crash site it's not "crash site" but more of just where the engine landed. Did anyone see any overhead shots of the Queens area on the news? Are there two burning areas? Did the whole plane break-up before hitting the ground?
http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/us/0111/newyor
The concorde accident was caused by a plane piece which damaged the tire and blew , which the subsequently damaged the tank. Furthermore the design and technology behind both plane are different, and have what , 30 years of difference in their design. They weren't even designed by the same team of ingenieur. Their only common point is probably that they aren't american plane.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Folks,
:-(
While a lot of people a angling towards the idea of a terrorist action, I think there's one possibility that no one has yet discussed: mechanical failure caused by a catastrophic bird strike.
Far-fetched? Not if you know something about the geography and ecology at JFK Airport and Jamaica Bay. To the west and south of JFK Airport is a very large marshy area that serves as a sanctuary for migratory birds (plus some native waterfowl). This means at this time of the year--when birds are migrating south for the winter--there will be millions of birds out in this sanctuary.
What happens when you have flocks of birds rising by the thousands getting in the way of the flight path of an airliner taking off out into Jamaica Bay? My guess is that American Airlines Flight 857 may have flown in to a very large flock of birds just after take off, mean the plane's two GE CF6-80 engines may be ingested 40 or more birds per engine somewhere between 1 and 2 seconds. That many birds being ingested will seriously damage the front engine blades, and such a severe bird ingestion may be enough to cause a catastrophic fan section failure, which can spew out very sharp engine fan blades at supersonic speeds, possibly breaking through the engine nacelle and hitting the fuselage, wing flap control lines and wing fuel tanks, which explains the fire on the wings that eyewitnesses saw.
Eyewitnesses said that the plane flew very low before the plane lost one of its engines and then crashed down at a sharp angle. This sounds consistent with the plane suffering a catastrophic bird strike.
If anyone remembers, some years ago an E-3A Sentry AWACS plane crashed aftering taking off from Elmendorf AFB in Anchorage, AK after the engines failed due to a catastrophic bird ingestion problem. AA Flight 857 may have suffered a similar unfortunate fate.
This is slashdot after all. Any other story and this would have been +5 Insightful.
The plane crashed shortly after 9 a.m. and thick, black smoke could be scene in televised reports.
/. effect goes further than just bandwidth... looks like Taco's writing for Yahoo.
Apparently, the
Please note: I am not trying to be disrespectful in the face of death; I simply find that a little humor can cheer everyone up.
If we allow these criminals to alter our way of life to the point that we cease to function, or regulate ourselves into and Orwellian nightmare then we may as well lie down and die.
Live your life as you always have.
Not only should we live normally so the terrorists don't have control, we should live normally in order to have control over the terrorists.
Think about it: If they really could blow up the US, if they really could take over, they would have done it by now. Their goal is to spread their twisted philosophy everywhere, right? So why haven't they taken control? The terrorist haven't done this because they aren't strong enough to take over the United States. So they're playing these games with Americans in order to frighten us into submission.
9/11 was the first life-altering tragedy for many Americans. Time to crawl out from under the bed. Use that fear and energy to do better in your everyday tasks than ever before. It is our way of life, our freedom, that these people want to destroy, simply because their repressive ideas can't survive long in a free American society.
Remember at the end of The Matrix, when the agents threw everything they could against Neo? Neo was untouched by the agents, because he realized how powerful he really was for the first time. The agents who weren't eliminated ran away.
I'm not requesting anyone to stop bullets in their tracks. I am requesting everyone to find the strength within them to overcome any fear or anxiety these events are provoking in us. Realize how strong you are, and you can do just about anything.
Rebel against the terrorists. Live normally.
That shouldn't take all that much time. Seems like we are just not putting enough effort into it, instead letting the Northern Alliance fight most of the battles for us.
We just need to get him, and get him alive, to get all the information he has in his head. Drag him over here alive, start pumping him full of truth serum, and that will be more information on the terrorist networks in a day than we'll get in a year of normal covert "investigating".
Pick the four most likely areas we think he is in, drop sleep gas or something in mass quantities on those areas, drop in a monstrous amount of troops, grab every person that looks vaguely like him, lock them up somewhere, and then figure out which one is the real Bin Laden. Sort of a macabre "Where's Waldo" game.
Is is just me, or is Step One of the "War on Terrorism" taking way too long?
If it was so "easy" there would be far more of those device on every plane to spread terror. Probably far more economical than train people to fly plane to strike two tower. I am not saying that the article at salon.com is wrong , only that it leaves probably important fact. Like how do look such explosive device with a detonator inside on a Xray film ? Probably suspect , something you do not await in an electronic device. But then again that is only my opinion, not fact. I can only say you that from what I know of airport security it is at least enough.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
gee thanks, like i couldn't have found a picture on my own of this event.
The BBC earlier today was on low graphics mode (which I like) due to "unprecedented traffic" to their web site. Tell me why are they getting more traffic today than they would on say Sept. 11 or 12?? I understand people are interested to learn about another potential terrorist attack, but this situation was announced almost from the start as likely to be an accident or mechanical failure. The only people that died were the people on the plane. Could it be that more people are home because of the Veterans Day holiday or because they are laid off work? Just thought it was odd today would be their highest traffic day ever.
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
---So here's deliberate, appropriate action: grab dropping stocks! Prevent further damage to the economy, take importants assets out of the hands of incompetent handlers, and make a little something for yourself.----
These sorts of arguements are so misguided that it's hard to even know where to begin.
Spending money on one thing, instead of on another thing, can't help or hurt the economy. We can't get richer just by buying things from each other.
There's no justifiable reason to buy stocks other than that you like holding those particular stocks (you actually value THEM). Buying a stock transfers some stock to you from somebody else, enriches all the current owners of that stock, and hurts all the potential buyers of that stock BY EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT. Leaving on net, no benefit or loss to the economy as a whole. Patriotism doesn't turn a bad investment into a good investment. If you think the stocks might perk up in the future, and you're willing to take the risk that they won't buy them. If not, not. It's that simple.
You'd be suprised by the volume of hits CNN.com gets on days like this (1.3M+ hits/min) and the system of load balacing is enough to make your head spin... 'lightening the home page' is just one strategy to keep the the site from going up in flames. CNN.com could cause the Slashdot effect on Slashdot.org if a link where placed on the homepage.
An excellent example of using moderator privilege to spout political opinion.
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can't kill the beast.
The Taliban noticed that Amercian support for bombing Afghanistan was waning so they quickly arranged to down another airliner to assure the continued support of the American public for the current war campaign.
2]
Replace "Taliban" with "American right-Wing Nutcases" and repeat 1].
3]
Replace "Taliban" with "your favorite violent lunatic group" and repeat 1].
4]
It was a 'normal' tragic accident.
5]
No one actually knows yet, but once the media feeding frenzy ends we'll find out from some calm and boring official.
Anarchists never rule
IMO bin laden claimed responisbiliry yesterday so perhaps that was a signal
Where, in your opinion did he do such a thing?
Kapton wiring, its a hidden secret within the industry that Kapton wiring was BANNED by the military but is currently in use by commercial companies.
- 14 -wiring.htm
And its also caused many incidents.
http://www.iasf.net/kapton_wiring.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/money/biztravel/2001-06
http://www.iasa.com.au/twaletter.html
http://www.iasa.com.au/BOEINGFISR.html
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
First off, you're nuts. I can gaurantee that ADDING drag in the form of a parachute will not increase the glide distance of a modern airliner.
Not to troll, but...
ABCnews, CBSnews.com (Linux/Apache)
CNN.com (Solaris/Netscape)
BOTH were able to take intensive network loads
from today's events...
MSNBC.com (Win2000/IIS)
Down for half the day.
my goodness.
Anyone remember American Airlines flight 191 in 1979? Basically the plane crashed because AA mechanics took some maintenance shortcuts. After all there was an airworthyness directive from the FAA, maybe the AA mechs did something silly here.
OK. So that makes it sound like a terrorist, but not so fast...
Here is my logic: A high explosive device that was able to tear the wing off would have caused some pretty spectacular effects and not caused the fires that were seen. So it was probably not a high explosive.
Low explosives are not much more of a candidate either-- it would be really hard to make a dangerous LE device on a plane.
However, there is a class of explosives that would work-- high blast pressures, fires, and low ranges: fuel-air explosives, or FAE's. Note that the fuel has to go through the wing to the engine, so it has to go into the wing. If there was a leak, an explosion could have caused everything that was seen.
So I think that a fuel leak around the junction of the wing was responsible along with a spark, excess heat, or something. So one is back to accident or sabotage.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I've heard of this happening before, and I've heard of the "chicken cannon" project.
IANAP (pilot), but I would think something could be done to protect the engines.....especially if , as you say,
To the west and south of JFK Airport is a very large marshy area that serves as a sanctuary for migratory birds (plus some native waterfowl)
and other planes have been brought down by this before. I'm not saying this theory is wrong, but I am wondering why the reaction seems to be "well, looks like this one ran into some birds....I guess that'll happen sometimes."
I'm imagining a cone of some sort, but I'm not an engineer (yet).
Regardless, it shows last-minute straight-thinking on the pilot's part. The fire on the ground could have been much worse.
I have been reading Another Plan Down in New
York since 9:45 and up until now there is
nothing new.
What has this story accomplished at Slashdot?
Just clicks.
So long and have a happy ride down with VA
Linux.
It's rather simple: systematic extermination of the entire human race.
We're all badly behaved little monkeys, really, and we're not going to stop biting each other any time soon. So, before we kill ourselves AND the only known chunk of rock that can successfully sustain diverse and plentiful life, let's just stop all the fightin' and the fussin' and start the exterminatin'.
Or at least get a bunch of those Euphio machines. We'll torture Vonnegut until he tells us how.
Well, while it is possible that it's a large sea bird, it's unlikely to be a Stinger.
Far easier to use a fire and forget anti-tank weapon - the profile of a plane on takeoff would allow for this, and it's fairly easy to buy these in a number of states, especially at gun shows with minimal forged (or legit) documentation and then pop it in a trunk to transport.
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
Dick, lets launch some tomahawks! I like their perdy smoke trails...
-
No, National ID cards wouldn't have stopped this if a terrorist attack.
But it points out a few things, however.
One is that not federalizing airport screening personnel is really dumb. As is not paying them decent wages.
Another is that a good terrorist group will always use slightly different attacks, but that perhaps our overreliance on planes is not a good thing. In fact, why are we not asking ourselves how soon instead of if we will be building a nationwide high-speed rail system for passengers and freight.
And yet one more is - why are we not screening all baggage, no matter the source, no matter which country.
There are things we can do. That we know would help. And there are things we aren't doing, for political reasons that have no basis in reality.
For the rest, let's remain calm. It's still safer to fly today than to drive.
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
It is clear from what is being reported in the media that something occured just after takeoff causing mechanical damage including the complete seperation of one engine, and a very quick subsequent loss of control and crash.
There are two general possibilities for the cause:
1. Accident
The flight encountered some unexpected mechanical problem not caused by the intentional action of any person. For example, the engine could have had a catastrophic mechanical failure of its fan, causing loss of the engine and possibly additional damage to the body or wing which made the plane uncontrollable. Similar incidents have caused other jet planes to crash.
2. Intentional act
Someone intentionally caused the damage to the plane. This could happen numerous ways, but the most likely possibility is that of a bomb going off inside the body of the plane, producing enough debris to take out one engine.
Only the detailed technical forensic analysis of the wreckage will conclusively point to one possibility or the other.
If the crash of a fully-fueled jumbo jet onto a residential area of New York City was not an intentional act by the 9/11 terrorists, then they are unbelievably lucky that fate has caused an incident which perfectly matches what they would have liked to accomplish themselves. So unbelievable, that I can't believe it was just an accident.
I'd expect that somebody's going to loose their FAA ratings.
come on now..
Nuff' said.
To both the ACs and the Moderators
So much for rewarding those reporting breaking news. It was the best available when reported. Look at the time of posting before flaming a poor soul.
âoeWho knew something as harmless as willful ignorance could end up having real consequences?â
Wrong, buddy. An airplane is a realy heavy thing in midair moving forward really fast. Its wings aren't big enough (aren't generating enough lift) to let it glide at low speeds. However, the addition of 4 1600 pound foil type chutes (think aerial demonstrators) greatly increases the airfoil surface available, and could let the plane generate enough lift to increase its glide distance. It's a question of getting your forward speed to keep you up, not slowing down your downward fall directly.
My Karma is so good, I'm the Dalai Lama...or something.
I agree, but i also think we should get rid of Bush first. You never know, it could just be a jinksed (spelling?) presedent thats causing the trouble. No need to ditch the whole world without checking.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Hmmmm . . . your solution seems not to involve my own death . . . not bad, not bad.
I, personally, think it's interesting how clear a choice America was given in 2000--Mr. Environment, Mr. Clinton-Style Peace Lover, Al Gore, vs. Mr. America First, Bushie. Of course, the sad thing is, most people didn't care until the big Chad Crisis.
Gore may have been too namby-pamby, too soft, too wimpish, to have effective dealt with this, but I don't think Bush's hard line will be effective in the long run either.
I guess systematically wiping out mankind might be
a bit of a sticky wicket; it'd be hard to do right, and of course, there's all those bleeding hearts who wouldn't want to die. Still . . don't let the terrorists destroy civilization! Let's destroy it ourselves, first! Then what do they do? Crash an airplane into *our* caves? Bwa ha ha ha!
And either way, whether we're killing everyone or merely rubblizing ourselves, think of the economic benefits! Either project would require so much effort that unemployment would vanish! Come to think of it, what if we just kill the unemployed?
If Al Qaida thinks they can solve problems by killing people, boy howdy, they ain't seen nothing yet.
Im not scared of being hit by a plane, what worries me the most is that the man with the big red button is... well.. Bush
(2DTV lol)
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Yeah, fight the power! Happiness is just The Man telling you how to feel!
I just saw that on CNN (tv). It was flying out of Pittsburgh, and was going to Washington. It was diverted to Dulles from another airport after the skymarshalls reported a problem. What the problem is is not yet known. Anybody know anything about this?
Synergy is your friend
Actually, I was thinking of the correct type. a) I'm an aerospace engineer in the industry. b) I skydive. I'm very familiar with both planes and parachutes.
To quote the website that you referrenced: "In a very short amount of time, the aircraft will cease any swinging and stabilize under the now fully-opened canopy at zero forward airspeed."
Kind of hard to glide with ZERO forward airspeed. A modern airliner can glide, from altitude, miles and miles. There was a recent (few months ago) mishap where a plane lost all engines and glided over 60 miles to the nearest airport. At the altitudes (low) that any increase in glide ratio would be usefull, the chute wouldn't have time to deploy and stabilize. Not to mention that turning would be next to impossible in that configuration, so forget about picking a decent place to land, you're going down wherever you happen to be pointing.
The titanium vanes in the engines sometimes are not forged properly and are prone to cracking where the vane edge joins the mounting bracket. If the vane breaks the whole engine fails catastrophically, like this one where the engine fell off while in flight.
There was a similar failure on a DC-10 that crashed in Sioux City, IA in 1989. It was eventually found that the airline in that crash (United) had been sold vanes that had been rejected by the military because of the cracks, but were resold by a broker. United had installed them without doing metallurgy tests on them.
That would assume that the media had their shit together _before_ Sept 11, which would be a very bad assumption. This is just the latest thing for them to hype all out of proportion - SOP for the media.
Nathan, you still haven't met real evil yet. If you're lucky, you probably won't for a few more years until after you graduate high school and get out "into the real world."
Some observations:
Contrary to popular belief, terrorists are not Hitler
err, well duh. the pope isn't hitler either. they're actually different dudes. pretty amazing, eh?
nor are they comparable to Hitler
technically, if one can compare them, they are comperable. that's what the word means. cool, eh? actually, what many people (who have studied more history than 9th grade world history) are referring to is the bizarre love for death these very rare yet terrifyingly dangerous freaks have. i'd suggest you study napoleon, since many french still have a deep love for him (and have forgotten the real man). he commented numerous times that he could not realize pleasure without destroying life. it is an ultimate alpha-male type of maschocism - the realizing of pleasure through mass death.
interestingly, there are arguments that hitler did not have this drive. he had more of a god-quest, seeing himself as germany personified. his quest for the destruction of germany was required to parallel his own pending destruction - e.g. "with my body goes my country" misidentification. hitler certainly did have more than a few death-questers in his operation though, and he empowered them to fulfill his own drive.
bin laden shows the god-quest, but he appears more significantly pursue the sexual death-quest drive. he has chosen high casualty targets - as if he's sacrificing thousands to his own alter. certainly a messiah complex at work combined with the bloodiness of a real deviant.
Take away their reason for terrorizing and they stop.
Err, wrong! Take away their reason and they'll find another one. They'll apply relativism to their distorted view of reality and create false harms against them, etc. Look at Bin Laden's current foundation. America is evil because:
o it is based on a merchantilism system, selling things to people
o it values consumerism to promote economic and social growth
o it exports this system to the world, seeking a larger market which allows all participants to gain
and most of all
o it seeks an intelligent consumer, able to differentiate between quality and garbage, able to reason, able to recognize mysticism and utopianism for the frauds they are
The previous items are bad enough for his type; the last one is the death of his cause. Parasites require the presence of one of the two false systems in order to allow their host to permit their presence. The US provides a cure from this parasite.
Hitler was a madman who managed to subvert an entire country.
Taliban subverted an entire country. Taliban and OBL are very clearly linked financially and operationally.
As another poster pointed out, McVeigh would not have bombed OKC had we not first murdered the Branch Davidians in Waco.
No, he probably would have raped little kids or something else equally horrible. QUIT applying rational thought to deviants. Deviants are broken people. They will find whatever reason they want to procure the pleasure they obtain from death and destruction.
When you do such things to begin a cycle of violence and hate, it does not end until you let it end. People like you, unfortunately, choose to not let it end.
How about I keep kicking you in the nuts, screwing your sister and stealing your money. You can stand there and "choose it to end." We'll see when it does.
Does that help? Visualize that again. Imagine I am a very bad person that will keep hurting you because I enjoy it. Worse yet, I will get quickly bored if you accept. I want a response. Remember: OBL and his type have had passive types to deal with for years. OBL grew up with women to beat, children to rape, etc. He grew bored of them. He needs an enemy that will resist in order to get off now.
Sometimes I think we are really less evolved than most "wild" animals. We certainly act like it.
If you understand nature for the life-stealing, food-robbing survival base mechanism it is (hint: watch the lion eat bambi and try to explain to bambi to 'stop the cycle'), we are quite indeed evolved.
In fact, the only less evolved part of our species is the codependent relativist that seeks being consumed by the wolves.
Don't worry, that's why us dogs are here to protect you.
You don't believe this, do you? Are you that stupid, or just a tasteless troll?
The United States has been responsible for saving more lives and improving the quality of life for more people than any country in the history of the world.
You ungrateful fuck. You'd be dead of starvation, disease or war if the U.S. hadn't pulled your ass out of primitive conditions.
An Aussie mate of mine opened his laptop on an American aircraft recently, and discovered his large, flat-bladed screwdriver inside the bag. It would make a dandy lethal weapon. A hostess was leaning over his seat to adjust something at the time, and advised him to hide it and say nothing.
How difficult would it be to hide a couple of pistols in the laptop's docking bays?
The reason that Israeli airliners don't get hijacked is that if a terrorist stood up in one, he'd be dead in seconds, weapons or not. You can't legislate safety, but you *can* legislate the right to self-defense, and you *can* avoid so drowning your people in a network of complex rules for every breath and every step of their lives that they're aware enough to actually use that right.
You can also remove a lot of reasons for others to hate you by not throwing your weight around internationally. That reduces terrorism without hamstringing your own people.
Finally, you need to ask why the government would declare a war when 5000 people die, but not against the tens of thousands of drunk-driver killings that happen in the mainland USA every year.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
When one sees the headline 'Another plane down in New York', it is impossible not to connect it to the terrorist attacks on September 11th, despite there never having been any evidence to support this. This is poor journalism at best - a news site should do its best to relay the facts only, and leave it to the public to draw their own conclusions from these facts. Furthermore, anyone reading the news story after hearing about it via another source could have been confused into thinking that a SECOND plane had gone down today.
A much better headline would have been 'Plane Down in New York' or 'Plane Crashes in New York'.
There was an article in The Economist claiming that terrorist nuclear attacks are a serious threat. After Sept.11, this seems worryingly plausible. If this happens, it will make Sept.11 look like "small beer" as the French say.
Shouldn't the phenomenon more fairly be called engine-suck rather than bird-strike? I mean it's not as if flocks of kamikaze birds don their helmets and goggles, and tear towards engine #1 screaming BANZAI! is it?
Matthew @ Bytemark Hosting
bin Laden, being a Saudi, would have recieved the bulk of his tactical learning from Western sources and would be accustomed to the ways and mannerisms of US forces.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
One of you is obviously a terrorist. If you want evidence, just look at the negative moderation of the above patriot.
God Bless,
Anonymous Patriot
Wouldn't it be tragic if this crash were a result of our own weapons? It might explain the mysterious "two explosions" we hear about.
Ahh! That's how they can do it... The news sites should monitor for sudden drops in the stock markets, and when they occur switch automatically to text-only :-)
Interesting...
cha ching it's numero mil!!!!!!!
Copyright 2001 Salon.com
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger.ht m
Some tidbits: The missiles have a range of 1 - 8km. They are heat seaking and weigh only 12.5 pounds and are 5 feet by 1 foot in size. The US gave tons of these out like lollipops to Bin Ladin and other Afghanis when they were fighting the Russians for us. How hard would it have been to shoot one of these from miles away off in some boat in the middle of the bay? Just food for thought.
The General Electric CF6-80C2 turbofans in the Airbus that went down are designed to be swapped out easily, without removal of accessory panels - that is, you don't have to take the top shell of the wing off. The mount point, while very solid, is still weaker than the surrounding stucture, and may be vulnerable to a shaped charge triggered by a barometer. As little as 200g of plastique or 300g of TNT composite is sufficient to cut a 25mm alloy mounting bolt or two if shaped properly(more TNT composite is necessary, as you need more filler to hold the shape of the charge). A device of this type could be as small as 50-60 cm^3 and could easily fit in a toolbox.
In addition, this document details some of the mandatory modifications to this engine, not the least of which is:
"DGCACF6-80C2/12 FAA AD 95-17-16. AS IN AD & SB. AS IN AD & SB. TO PREVENT COMPRESSOR REAR FRAME(CRF) SEPERATION, WHICH COULD RESULT IN A REJECTED TAKEOFF AND DAMAGE TO THE AIRCRAFT."
Note that the engine in the parking lot of the gas station on 116th has the rear frame ripped or blown off. It could be that either this disaster represents a failure in a known vulnerable engine component in which case GE is responsible, a failure by American to do required modifications of said engine in which case American and GE are responsible, or an act of deliberate sabotage exploiting a known vulnerable engine component, in which case GE and the saboteur are responsible. However, the internals of this area are extremely hot, even in flight. Therefore, a charge in this area would need to be external - that is, noticable in a preflight walkaround - so it seems unlikely that a charge was used to exploit this weakness.
Accessing the rear frame area of the engine is harder to do, but is done more often and therefore would attract less attention. However, the level of sabotage neceesary to assure a catastrophic failure at altitude would in all likelihood create that same failure immediately upon preflight engine start.
In all cases, it seems that people are not looking hard enough at the designer and manufacturer of the CF6-80C2, General Electric.
'Be always mindful, even when ditch-digging.' --D. T. Suzuki
The "fuel dump" was total bollocks?
The plane broke apart and there was NO time to dump fuel... the fuel was 'dumped' because there was a large explosion and the tanks were ruptured.
Spending money on one thing, instead of on another thing, can't help or hurt the economy. We can't get richer just by buying things from each other.
Stocks are investments. When you invest money, you are funding production. It may seem too abstract for you to wrap your defective little brain around, but here's a simple example at the extreme: when stock prices drop below a certain level, it makes sense to buy the company just to sell off its easily-scrapped assets. So a productive automobile manufacturer, for example, might get broken up, its employees fired, its expensive specialized equipment melted down for scrap, its building torn down to sell as undeveloped land, all wasted, recycled at pennies on the dollar, because its stock price drops too far out of step with its productivity.
You think a stock crash isn't harmful to the economy? Picture that happening to most businesses. Factories being dismantled, skilled workers sitting idle, shortages of everything and no income to pay for it anyway. Not for lack of resources, but from a general misallocation of resources.
That's the key: efficient allocation of resources. That's the very definition of economy, and that's what markets are for. When the markets fail, everything else goes down with them.
Besides, the point was that it's profitable to buy during a panic. You at least understand profit, right? The problem is that people feel bad about profiting from disaster, and they shouldn't. Not when it helps prevent another disaster.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
What kind of funky, retard-grade crack are moderators smoking these days, anyway?
If you wanted to mod him down, "overrated" would be a more logical reason. It's hard to be redundant when the comment you're posting is the first comment on the story. Maybe if moderators would stop reading at "highest rated first"...
-Kasreyn
Kasreyn: Cheerfully playing the part of Devil's Advocate to hairtrigger
I first read about the plane crash when it was mirrored in a hand-written poster in a computer games shop. Unlikely to get slashdotted by virtue of being located in a backwater of the shopping centre and written in a large font, but then the site went down until tomorrow morning...
This AD may and may not have been taken care of on this plane- really there's no way to know without access to the logs.
Saying that noncompliance with this AD grounds this plane after the effective date indicates that the AD and applicable regs are not fully understood. Clearly, 18 months are allowed from the effective date of 09-10-01 to complete this modification. This does *not* ground this plane type until the 18 month window for compliance closes.
-Excerpt from AD-
(a) Within 18 months after the effective date of this AD, modify the electrical connectors to the fuel sensors by the installation of new connectors and new sensors
...
Effective Date
(e) This amendment becomes effective on September 10, 2001.
-end excerpt-
Please do not post inflammatory remarks without some minimal fact mining.
peace
I live in Queens, about 8-9 miles from the crash site. As opposed to the 14-15 miles from the WTC.
I just got an Iguana, and was playing with him all morning. We turned the TV on at around noon to see the news. I soaked it in for about 20 minutes, went "meh" and turned it off. People on IRC across the country were discussing it for hours.
It's interesting that this didn't even rile me, what with all of the other things I've had happen to me the past few months. I suppose in a few weeks, I'll think about all of the people that died and start crying.
Terrorists winning? Only if apathy is their goal.
My dad, who flies for the airline (and who fortunately was not flying on that plane, though he flies 757s/767s and not A300s), never has anything good to say about JFK airport. That airport has very high turnover, disgruntled and underpaid employees, and very little training for those who are hired. 8 times out of 10 when he goes there (he tries his best to avoid it when doing trip bidding), the ground crew manages to mess something up, though it's usually some water pressurization thing that, when the ground crew forces some valve into the wrong position, prevents running water from working and thus inconveniencing the passengers due to no water. If a terrorist got a job there, they could have done some really, really bad things :-( (hopefully someone noticed something in this hightened age of air travel..). I hope that the airline is investigating this possibility.. (they probably are). On the BBC, they said that on another airplane, a guy was subdued on an airplane near Washington Dulles after trying to get into the flight deck (politically correct term for 'cockpit'). This tidbit was on the BBC (and I didn't have any connection problems this morning or during the day, unlike CNN. CNN sucks.. Go to the BBC :-). Now they should see if Osama tried to short the stocks again.. (I hope they froze all of his assets by now). I'm thinking that either the al Queda network is a one-trick pony (e.g., trying to do NY and Washington again), or copy-cat terrorist organizations might have tried to pull another disaster (my God, several hundred people died! This is a horrible tragedy :-(. It's possible that this is being downplayed to prevent further panic until they find out more information.. (my $0.02...)
Airbus A-300. That's what happens when you allow the French to build planes.
For such a great place, it is absulotly bafling to me that we can have people on here who think we should kill Islam because it is the source of all world troubles. And others hailing the Idea of dropping nukes on a country where there are bound to not even hit a damn terrorist, but rather kill tens-of thousands of innocent people!!! How the hell do you people live with yourselves?
"You're philosophy won't save lives, a nuke will" How in God's name is a weapon of mass destruction dropped on a country where most of the people are starving anyway help stop radicals in America that are destroying things????
How exactly do you people figure you are better than any of these terrorists? By killing thousands of people cause you are pissed? Next time, try thinking for about 40 seconds about who you are instead of the people you hate.
You Don't have to burn books to destroy a culture, you just have to get people to stop reading them. Ray Bradbury
It is the opposite. On large airliners, the engines are designed with shear bolts that will purposefully fail with the right amount of torque to prevent them from transfering said torque to the wing and tearing the wing off the plane.
Then why are we attacking Afghanistan, when most of the al-Quadians (that might be correct...) are Saudis?
BECAUSE THEY ARE IN AFGHANISTAN! I mean, wtf? Do you suppose we should attack their homeland? A nation that has thoroughly denounced Bin Laden and wants to execute him? That would be like Nuking Italy to get at the Mafia, like attacking Germany to stop neo-Nazism, Attacking Columbia to stop street dealers... oh wait... But you get the picture. Al-Queda members (the correct term) are in Afghanistan. They are supported by the Taliban which we claim as an enemy.
To be honest, I don't give two shits about Al-Queda or whatever, but I've wanted to see the Taliban go straight to hell since long before sept11th. And now that they are, I couldn't be happier.
They kill more people in public executions each year then we ever will.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
attack their spelling.
You're pointing out of my spelling error has thoroughly routed my argument. Congratulations, clearly you have won, and displayed a superior intellect.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Musta been thinking 1620 meters per mile, got it backwards. Duh.
Well, it's still way too damned big to be practical.
Infuriate left and right
I like the CNN summary:
"260 were on airliner, six to nine missing on ground; 265 bodies recovered"
This message is encrypted with Quad ROT-13 to protect the author's copyright under the DMCA.
Engine gets major saftey overhaul. Engine blowes the fuck up 3 minutes of active use afterwards. If there was a major overhaul of the engine, i'd bet on sabotage, to be honest.
fortunetly, from what I've heard it was just a spot-check yesterday.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
i mark you -4, faggotty
Just like a spud gun, but you shoot birds out of it. A shot of hair-spray and a click of the bbq ignitor... and *BOOOM!*
The spin put on this 'accident' will be a beauty. no mater how they spin it - the public will be on edge. The bit about dumping fuel does not seem normal.
AA is in trouble and cashflow negative, and is based in bushes home state.
To say terrorist is bad
to say bomb or unexplained is bad
and I dont think airbus will be impressed with negative implications - least not when the recorders are in tact.
So far, no real information has come to light, other than 24 hours is plenty to analyse the tapes and make a statement. The longer the delay - the more likely folk will avoid NY flights - insurance actuarys would say the risk is on the east coast.
I saw slashdot.org's posting when it only had 20 entries, but had nothing new to add. Now it has over a thousand postings, and there is little chance I will be read by anyone but the most dedicated or zealous of terrorist news followers. Still I am going to record my thoughts, mostly for potential told-you-so value.
Planes do crash accidentally, but there is a near coincident of date, and a coincidence of location to consider. Any plane crashing in the US is going to initially be under suspicion of terrorist activity, but President Bush has taken to attach significance to the date of 11-11-01 as the 2 month Anniversary of 9-11. 11-12-01 has significance as Veteran's Day, and as the closest weekday to 11-11-01. Add to this New York as the location, and I swing back to terrorist activity as the probable cause.
Yes this is all circumstantial evidence, but to be honest, I like many other Americans have been waiting for the other shoe to drop, and even if this is terrorist activity, it is mild compared to what has been threatened. With what has been learned about sloppy airport security, I'm surprised there have not been more airline incidents in the last two months.
While we are more carefully screening carry-on baggage, I am of the impression we are not screening all checked baggage. It might also be that we mix freight cargo with passenger cargo (maybe some well-informed person could tell us if this is true of not), thus an altimetrically triggered bomb could bring down an airplane with only having been air freighted by someone.
I'm not sure why there seems to be so much effort exerted to push the accident theory for flight 587. It may well be an accident, but it seems like the news media are pushing to have the public believe accident "until proven otherwise" (I suppose to prevent panic). Personally, I think we should assume "terrorist incident" until proven otherwise. Because the latter will lead to a tightening of security that might prevent another downed planed in the near term.
Letter To Iran
First the american government destroys the WTC towers to get an excuse to attack Afghanistan (without any evidence) and to stop Israel criticism at the same time. Second, some countries, including France, refuse to collaborate. So they must be punished by casting a bad name on their airplane design. What is one more plane for the US government, after all ?
I work in Germany and while driving home yesterday I heard something on the radio to the effect of "Airbus catastrophe in Queens". (my German isn't great) I raced home and turned on trusty CNN international, and saw...the global weather report. I waited for the next set of stories to start and was treated more stories of reporter heroics in Afghanistan. I felt relieved and had myself a beer, and thought that I really had to work on my German if I managed to misinterpret things that badly. A while later, flipping through the channels, I saw the French news with a live reports on the newest New York inferno. BBC had live coverage and so did 3 German channels. I went back to CNN and eventually they had a brief 2 minute blurb on the crash. They did not even put up the hotline number for victims families to call. (BCC did) I don't know what it was like in the US, but I get the feeling that the Government told the Media not to make a big deal about this. Think about the last big airline crash in the US (pre-Sept 11. ), and remember the kind of coverage that it got. It is fine trying to keep up the people's spirits and moral, but this is just stupid. Has CNN just lost it, or are we losing our "free press"?
-------------------------------END--COMMUNICATION
.. In this time, i think people of all races', colours and backgrounds should be uniting together, and, instead of fighting, laydown their arms, and their hatred of each-other, stop their predudice and should stand and ask the question:
"Is Bush and the entire American government a bunch of incompetant red-neck crack sniffers?, or is it just me"
and should reply their question with:
"Yes, yes they are. And we must stop our fighting and hatred for eachother, and go and kill Bush and the Government, 'cos, lets face it, this is all their fault."
And then we could have a good ol' fashond linchmob, Texas style, _or_ even better, we could hand said government over to the Taliban (requesting tv viewing rights ofcourse).
If i was incharge of airline safety/security i would have resigned long time ago lol...
In other news: A car has crashed in downtown NY, the car, travelling at 3 mph, hit the bumber of another car infront, a 5 block area has been cordened off, but police say they dont think it was the work of terrorists.
oh, am i gonna get modded down for this...
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
jail sentences do NOT reduce crime
wow arkanes, you actually allow yourself to think this way? frightening.
what you allege here is that there apparently is a mystic force that protects all criminals from being caught, right up until they decide to quit crime. then, the police nab them because the mystic crime force field collapses and they are no longer invisible.
that must be the logic. otherwise, the criminals would not have been done with their crime sprees, and intercepting them and putting them in jail would reduce crime.
so how does this mystic force field thing work? what proof do you have of it? can we confirm that every killer, rapist, etc. out there was done with crime right before they got caught, and therefore were not stopped from more crime?
radical view, arkanes. you've finally got jonkatz beat on this wacked view.
they are ineffective as a deterent
if this is true (which most criminal science evidence shows otherwise), does it matter? let's take your average child killer. since i don't believe your mystic force field exists, nabbing him results in children who aren't hurt/killed. isn't that good enough for you? or do you like the effects of crime?
and convicted criminals have a tendency to commit further crimes
you sound like a deviant making threats to society ("bwahaha, you can put me in the pen, but i'll do it again. so there!"). all we have to do to solve for this problem, should it exist, is not let them out, or better yet, give them the permanent incarceration.... fry em.
News flash - bombing Afghanistan isn't gonna make your daughter any safer.
actually it will, but you bring up a very critical point: we still need to deal with the thought terrorists within.
accountability is coming!
A serious inquiry deserves a serious response:
Why do so many people seem to think that not attacking Afghanistan means "doing nothing"?
It is not "doing nothing" - and hopefully persons of reason are not assessing your proposed solution as such. This would be misdirection and leads the discussion down the wrong path.
Instead, those most critical of these proposals focus on the fact that the use of force is what is required, and anything that does not incorporate force does not accomplish the job.
Understand: the game has been escalated. Food packages, Red Cross trucks, etc. were tossed aside on Sept 11. This was OBL and the Taliban's intent.
Study the strategy of war, for instance. The United States has a significant interest in playing a continuing game. The status quo is in our favor. Our intelligent opponents recognize this and work to pursue an end game.
The game got escalated. Consider it a sort of duel - we were playing with dollar bills like a good game of poker, and the Islamic fundamentalists pulled a gun. Unless you possess a winning hand (a better gun), you fold and concede to their demands. Those are the only options.
We have alot of options besides engaging in inapropriate military action.
You're right. We are using appropriate military action. (Look at that: you had it in you all along. The answers are right at your fingertips!)
Remember: ME=GUN, YOU=HAM SANDWICH. What's your option?
Why inapropriate? Donald Rumsfeld said that we're unlikely to catch Bin Laden.
Er... complete the quote please. Taking things out of syntax is poor form and will get you laughed out of most crowds that are smarter than your average jr. high clique.
Rumsfeld implied that OBL is unlikely to allow himself to be caught, should he be located, and/or we are unlikely to allow him to be brought in alive. OBL is not going to be put in front of cameras on a United Nations court. He will rather expire, by his hands our ours.
Many members of the Taliban are no longer in the Taliban and will never be caught.
Ever hear of former Nazis in Argentina? Better yet, Nazis in the US and Germany? No shortage of them. Did Nazism come back 10 years later? Nope. Lost its support system.
Besides all of these peopl already invaded Afghanistan. Neither Bin Laden nor the Taliban are Afghani.
What kind of stupid comment is this? Taliban are not Afghani? Were have you been? They ARE the Afghan government (well, for the next five minutes). Seriously, you have GOT to think this stuff through and check your facts before you post. You even give relativists a bad name.
We are bombing innocent civilians who happened to have the misfortune of being invaded by people who attacked the US as well.
Welcome to the Real Fscking World.
Look, I'm being hard on you - but somebody needs to kick you in the shins and help you grow up. You won't survive high school with this kind of attitude.
A few questions for Swordboy and your friends -
Why can't you people spell?
Why can't you people get a clue?
Why are you defending killers? Your types hated the Taliban when they blew up those pretty ancient Buddas, but once they killed Americans and blew up our skyscrapers and smashed our planes, you defend them?
Why are you afraid of your own shadow?
Why do you care what "other people" think about Americans defending our country when it is attacked?
Who are these very important "other people"? Why do you subordinate yourself to their interest?
How is the "Nothern (sic) Alliance" the same as the Taliban? If they're the same, why are they at war?
What the hell does Michigan have to do with the situation?
What is a "sove"?
Are you one of those sickos that hates confrontation so much that you'll end up buying a bag of guns and targeting all the jocks at your high school?
What will it take to help you see the light?
What will it take to get you to spellcheck your posts first?
Time to deal with some false solutions:
Well, we could stop bending over and grabbing our ankles to protect the interests of big business for starters.
Fine. Quit buying their stuff. Next?
Oh wait, what, that's not good enough? You want to force other people to have to accept your ban on big business? Your choice isn't enough?
It really is frustrating to see how hard it is for you guys. Hating the world for not following your warped path. Getting panties bunched watching folks go to Walmart, snack at McDonalds, etc.
Why can't you let each human be accountable for his/herself? Or are you really a closet totalitarianist like some of the theories indicate?
In a sense, maybe I'm the fool. You're clearly demonstrating the same behavior that Bin Laden and his follows pursue: forcing your will on others. Perhaps this is why you defend his type so aggressively.
one that is there to watchdog the industry. No more "cost-benefit analysis" on security, at least, not driven by shareholders
It's been said over and over again but I see you're still struggling to get it: Europe tried this. Government security let the bad guys in (it did here too - all those companies did exactly what the Feds told them to). Private firms have competition built into the system and do a better job in Europe.
Also, where's your glorious goverment in this postal mess? Why did they let the Anthrax through? Why didn't they have irradiation devices at every single post office in the country? Don't tell me... THE GOVERNMENT DID A COST/BENEFIT ANALYSIS ON IT? Gasp!
Now for the fun:
Dear Airlines:
Sorry, you can't protect us from things the government never anticipated, we want our elected officials like Clinton, Condit, Frank and other role models to do that, thank you very much.
Excellent. As if the postal disgrace wasn't enough evidence.
Of course, the real problem is that we do unpopular actions worldwide.
Tell me, your confused blathering makes you real unpopular with intelligent people. Does that give us the right to deal with you in Bin Laden's manner? How about we just institute public caning to help guide some of our weaker citizens?
According to your reasoning, this approach is justified.
We can't make everyone happy, but I don't think we've had a consistent foreign policy since the end of the Cold War
Ah. Democracy sucks. We haven't had a consistent administration since the end of the Cold War. Does it surprise you that different administrations have different policies?
We need to stop supporting governments that don't fit American ideals
So stop sending food? Help? Sorry, your government is mean - you just have to die.
simply to protect our economic interests (sorry, Saudi Arabia!
There's the parallel. You hate big business, but have to buy their products every day. You hate countries like Saudi Arabia, but probably drive a car and use their oil.
You really need to make a choice and quit lying to yourself: become a hermit and follow your principles, or learn that buying a product does not mean you fully endorse their belief system.
We need to take a stand to Israel and withdraw support until they really, truly pull out of the West Bank (sorry, big Jewish lobby!).
No, we need to quit threatening them and let them sink or swim.
This means signing treaties to submit to the decisions of world justice
This would be a violation of the contract this country is based on. For a political leader or a citizen to advocate this is to declare opposition to the laws of the US. Some call it treason, but that is such a distasteful word.
Look. Instead of neutering the US, leave. Our constitution is quite clear and is a contract with all who live here. You obviously value some other order where you can push people around. I'd suggest you move to Britain. They've done a great job neutering the country, feeling guilty about not being loved by others, etc. You'll fit right in there. Of course, Canada's on their way there already and they're a cheaper airfare.
The day of reason is coming.
1. It was a terrorist attack. That means airport security still sux, and I'm not going on a plane until that changes.
2. It was an accident. That means airport maintaince sux, and I'm not going on a plane until that changes.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Very few people get drunk accidentally, even fewer drive cars accidentally.
Drink-driving is gross negligence, and when you drink, drive and kill someone it's absolutely, unquestionably your fault that they died. You took every step on the road to their death. You killed them. You trundle past policemen, knowing you're doing wrong and hoping that they'll not notice you, as did bin Laden's hijackers. It's no different in principle, only in scale.
A number of countries with a more pragmatic attitude to such things have discovered that shooting repeat-offense drink drivers out of hand is immensely profitable in terms of lives not lost. Perhaps America should do the same?
.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing