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9 Weeks to Pump Out New Orleans?
Cr0w T. Trollbot asks: "It looks like New Orleans is going through something very close to the worst case scenario right now. This somewhat prescient study, written well before the hurricane, describes some of the challenges (engineering and otherwise) facing New Orleans. 'In this hypothetical storm scenario, it is estimated that it would take nine weeks to pump the water out of the city, and only then could assessments begin to determine what buildings were habitable or salvageable. Sewer, water, and the extensive forced drainage pumping systems would be damaged. National authorities would be scrambling to build tent cities to house the hundreds of thousands of refugees unable to return to their homes and without other relocation options.' The hypothetical is looking awful close to reality right now. What can be done about draining and rebuilding New Orleans in light of the massive flooding, and what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?"
I know this sounds crazy, but given its bowl shape terrain, instead of pumping out the water and rebuild, why don't they rebuild over the water?
Otherwise, try asking Dutch how they have been living with large parts of Netherlands below sea level.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
...how many foreign countries are sending aid to the US now?
Did anyone else misread that headline and think the networks had started a "Pimp my City" show?
A) Don't live by a freaking ocean. Oceans have hurricanes.
B) Don't live in a city that is 8 feet below sea level. Flooding WILL occur.
Problem solved.
My memory is muddy, what's this river that I'm in, New Orleans is sinking man and I don't wanna swim!
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.
"what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?"
Well what I do in Civ3 is to disallow building cities on floodplains and swamps. Helps heaps.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
SPONGES.
Really, just a massive airdrop of sponges over the city, et voila, your problem, she is solved!
Exactly why people live in a city below sea level with the ocean on one side, a lake on the other, and a swamp on the other in a major hurricane area makes no sense to me. It is a city that has sentimental value but little practical value. I'll predict that no one will insure any buildings in New Orleans. People ought to condemn as many buildings as possible and let people move.
I Live in New Orleans and I was just planning on staying at Taco's house. This membership is good for something, right?
Before submitting a story to slashdot linking to a site on your personal server, refit the server with water cooling and use New Orleans as your reservoir.
The grass is always greener on the other side of the light cone.
Salvation Army Online Donation - Money goes directly to help with Katrina relief.
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
I think there is too much whining and complaining and fretting over this. It's not like this hasn't happened before and it's not like it isn't going to happen again. If my house got destroyed every ten years or so, I would move. It would have to be cheaper than rebuilding and starting over from scratch every few years.
The Army Corps of Engineers is working on better flood detection and protection, and anyone with expertise in this area could contact them and lend a hand.
In the long term? Drive your car less. Drive a smaller car. Fly less. Turn off your lights when you're not in the room. Turn off your computer at night. Throw away less stuff. We all know why this is happening to us.
there are professional who do that sort of thing. And they don't hang around posting on slashdot.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Won't somebody make a contribution to the stupidity relief fund?
Show this to your friends and family that don't know what a real hacker is
Well New Orleans is too big too just simply give it up and move on. I figure they'll have to just start pumping out water one problem neighborhood at a time. It might take months or years to fully recover but it has to be done. The cost of leaving all that alone is far worse.
Long term: I think a massive public works project will come out of this. Something along the lines of the Netherlands Delta Works Project. Only on a much more massive scale. Something along the lines of a massively huge dike between New Orleans and the ocean. Either that or find a way to drop enough dirt under New Orleans to raise it about 100 feet. Either that or maybe the United States will actually address and attempt to fix global warming with this hurricane blow?
...in bed
Only way to really prevent something like this is to not build densely in high-risk areas in the first place.
Of course, the very features that makes for high risk - river deltas, earthquake areas, active volcanism - tend to produce really desireable areas to live in.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
I say we build the WeatherNet from Star Trek... I mean we already have the technology to teleport and we have tricorders (PDAs).
what to do, well, stopping global warming would help.
It's not that God hates trailer parks, it's more that trailer parks are usually built in disaster zones.
Then there's the banks of the Mississippi...
And now there's New Orleans.
Makes me wonder if future generations will build communities around rotted nuclear fission plants because of the 'warm glow' ...
Regards, Lex
Why does it take specifically 9 weeks to pump the water out? More specifically, why can't more pumping capacity (in the form of more powerful pumps, additional pumps, larger pipelines, etc.) be added?
"It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us." -- Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; New Orleans Times-Picayune, June 8, 2004.
The baby's fine -- please stop sending business cards.
Does it bother anyone else that our tax dollars will be used to pay for people who didn't have insurance?
Rebuild somewhere else. Hows that for a solution? Dont build a city below grade and in the path of hurricanes! Duh!
It's an engineer's field day. News for Engineers = News for Nerds.
Making the possible totally impossible.
you stop being the worlds largest polluter
and at least try to do something to cut back
you see Bushes "Kyoto would have wrecked our economy" isnt quite working out to be the cheap option, perhaps "Kyoto would have wrecked my personal economy." would of been a more appropriate statement
thats why no other countries are rushing forward to help you in this disaster, they are just saying "oh thats a terrible shame, hope it all works out for you"
Friends help friends, but the friendship is a two way street that Amnerica is going down the wrong way
Now may be a great time to spread the word about what FOSS has to offer people. Think about it, all these refugees' computers were ruined in the disaster. Perhaps having kiosks running Linux set up in the tent cities so that people can get in touch with relatives via email and chat would show people how sturdy a system we've built.
Well, it'll be a series of massive enginering projects: cleanup, design buildings and infrastructure to withstand another such storm, and implement (i.e. build) the design.
That techie enough for ya?
Thats what they get for building the city in such a shitty place.
Everyone knows terrorists from around the world trained thousands of dolphins, sent them to the gulf of mexico, and had them start swimming in a massive circular motion, thus creating Katrina. To prevent this from happening in the future, we just have to go into North Korea and Iran and bomb them into submission. Once we're done with that, we can remove their dictator and put in a puppet government.
They should be looking at a double Levee design so a single failure point won't become catastrophic. Much like modern ship design you have a inner and outer containment system with partitioned spaces. Have water flooding stormsewer systems drive pumps to pump down levees.
__________________________
_____|______|______|_____|
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Nothing. Go build a city somewhere where it won't just sink. Really, it'll be better in the long run.
What can be done about draining and rebuilding New Orleans in light of the massive flooding, and what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?
That's a good question considering that New Orleans, already below sea level, is sinking at a rate of about a meter (three feet) per century. Three feet per century doesn't sound like much, but the city is expected to be under water by the year 2100.
Advice for my fellow geeks: before seeking out that threesome you dream of, you might see what a TWOsome is like first.
Just make the whole place a water filled fun adventure!
How about keeping the national guard at home so that we have a trained and able bodied army of people available to actually do the work? Right now I've heard that there's anywhere from 3K-6K Louisiana national guard troops following the story from Iraq.
Give thanks again to the GWB administration's inability to govern.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
Don't you just love how everyone says "Our prayers are with them."? What about all the atheists in New Orleans, eh?
*goes to pray to his atheistic god*
Seriously, don't build things under sea level unless you are living in waterproof domes. I don't think the rest of the U.S. should have to spend tens of billions of dollars every time a monster hurricane comes by just so you can live where fish should swim
What can be done? Easy! a) don't build metropolitan areas in geographically stupid locations, and b) quit destroying the Lousiana wetlands, which would have acted as natural buffers against just this sort of disaster. Problem is, nobody actually wants to hear those answers. Ah, well.
"...what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?"
Um. Don't build your city on a flood plain?
Maybe they should seriously consider moving the whole city to someplace more stable (not below sea-level and not sinking).
Yeah, that'll be very expensive, but if they don't do seriously consider the moving option now, they'll probably have to consider it some time in the next 50 years anyway. Given the location and parameters (below sea-level and below Mississippi level much of the time) it's amazing that NL has lasted this long. Perhaps we should consider NL to be the first victim of Global Warming (which produces stronger hurricanes and higher ocean levels).
It weeps for the future.
...is it really smart to pump out, and rebuild right where everything is?
I mean, there's really nothing they can do to guarantee this doesn't happen again. I doubt they're going to be able to make it so the city isn't still below sea level...
I know there's really no other option, but... this is bound to happen again at some point in the future.
There was at least one city the relocated after the flood. Yup, I said CITY.
The only way to stop this from happening again is to rebuild on higher ground. If they rebuild where they are, it will be a matter of when it happens again, not if.
Same thing applies to a lot of people around the coast, intentionally building in flood planes (and I'm not talking about 500 year flood plains, I'm talking less than 100). Not to mention, in many cases the construction itself makes the problem worse.
Perhaps, New Orleans should look to Venice for a solution.
. 62,400 repetitions make one truth -- Brave New World, Aldous Huxley
Popular Mechanics also did a piece on the disaster that was just waiting to happen in New Orleans. Check it out.
Do not read this sig.
Why not stick a big floating sign on top that says:
We told you so!
That's what you GET for building your city BELOW SEA LEVEL!
You've known it for years but you keep building there anyway.
DUMB ASSES!
... together with back-issues of National Geographic. That should avoid the problem in the future by raising the grade level by 5-7 meters.
... Iraq was sending out a large ammount of aid in the form of oil.
The consequences of this storm have been realized for DECADES. I haven't seen an inkling of an emergency action plan on the part of the city or the state. The fact that 10000 people are still in the Superdome (that they were even sent there in the first place!) shows that in spite of all kinds of warning the level of preparation for an inevitable disaster were tragically inadequate.
Hoping for lucky breaks is not a reasonable plan of action. In fact it is almost criminal. Once NO gets through this disaster I hope someone takes a long hard look at the negligence that lead to this. An investigatory committee like the 9/11 commission would be a good model.
in New Orl...well I guess not any more.
This wasn't even close to being funny...
B) Don't live in a city that is 8 feet below sea level.
Oh, that's fine - as long as you choose the proper house.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
... from big storms, just like this one
No denying that the North Atlantic can dish out some major storms, but they are not even close to hurricane status.
Infuriate left and right
are just going to leave the city for good? Seriously, if it takes 2 months to get things back to something that even remotely resembles "normal" what are people going to do in the intervening time? Esp. considering that most children were looking to go back to school soon. My bet is that there will be a significant "brain drain" out of the city/state. Young educated people are going to find a job somewhere else and not look back. I wonder if that will be taken into account when the final tolls are reached....
Monstar L
After getting hit with a tsunami that destroyed their waterfront (twice ), Hilo Hawaii learned their lesson. The wiped out area became a huge park and rebuilding went on higher up away from the sea.
New Orleans is a bit bigger than Hilo, but building in such a precarious area shouldn't be taken lightly. Even without a hurricane it's a continuous struggle to keep parts of it from flooding. Who should subsidise such an expensive city to maintain and repair?
It's one thing if the annual storms take out some resort property on outlying islands, but a busy city with so much area at risk really needs to step back and evaluate the cost.
It's just that pumping near the critical levee breach of the 17th St. Canal @ Hammond Hwy. has failed, and so have efforts to plug this hole.
Uptown and Downtown have been the only places to avoid devastating flood waters. However, this failure is expected to dump 15 additional feet of water into the city.
Oh fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck...
But has there been any significant technological innovations in water pumping since 1928? I could understand higher dikes (or levees) and more pumps, but if the 1928 pump still works, use it. Are there not pumps in the netherlands that are older and still in use?
and definitely NIH, but use windmills to keep New Orleans dry. That, and some greater effort by the US Army Corp of Engineers regarding a system of dikes.
I'm not talking about the quaint 300 year old design windmill that appears on Dutch postcards. A design more like the vertical "mechanical sail" used by some modern ships can withstand far higher wind speeds than the old windmills.
If you americans stop hunting for democracy in other countries and sing the kyoto protocol, and stop emissions of CO2, WOULD HELP A LOT. USA is just getting what it deservers. You rsjudge yourselves superior, that you don't have to respect the rules of the nature or other countries free will, so now the nature is showing you that you are weak in God's justice.
Five feet high and rising...
Congress cut the fiscal year 2006 budget to the US Army Corps of Engineers in the New Orleans district by $71 Million, the largest single year cut ever.
Ironically, a study to determine the effects of a Cat 5 hurricane was also shelved.
Moreover, the New Orleans district imposed a hiring freeze back in June, the first time in 10 years.
Congress may be partially to blame for the failed pumps and the long clean-up time.
You're an idiot.
Think about the fact that a major U.S. city that many people love is slowly being destroyed almost completely. Think about how when all is said and done probably thousands of people will be dead from this. Think about how a husband feels knowing his wife is dead, or a wife feels seeing her husband die, or a parent who sees a child sicken and die.
Think I'm being overly dramatic? Think again. This is going to wind up being the worst natural disaster in U.S. history, and what I'm seeing on /. are jokes? I know the usual flippant response is 'hey dude, this is a valid response to tragedy.' Yeah, I understand that, but man, people are actively dying right now. How about just a tad more respect at this very moment, and then make your jokes? Why not wait to see the full impact of this disaster before you reflexively respond with sarcasm and wit? Please.
The Bush Administration is now following a lead that might link the terrorist group Mother Nature to Hurricane Katrina.
dumb. w00t!
...i am of the opinion that the United States of America is more than just an innocent victim.
Would have been nice to have selected a news source that didn't require WMP to see video. Yeah, I'm bitching, but, with a zillion articles on the events out there, would have been nice to have thought of the needs of many of your SD audience.
These storms are part of a natural Hurricane cycle. These cycles have been seen going back centuries. Not really a case of Karma. If so wouldn't it have been more far for a massive hurricane to have hit California and New York where lots if this oil and gas is burned?
These poor people need help just a bunch of morons judging them and making stupid comments.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
"New Orleans is a disaster waiting to happen. The city lies below sea level, in a bowl bordered by levees that fend off Lake Pontchartrain to the north and the Mississippi River to the south and west...
What can be done about draining and rebuilding New Orleans in light of the massive flooding, and what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?
You must be new here. This is Slashdot, not a civil engineering firm.
Topics of expertise here include:
Linux
Open Source
Anti-religion
DRM
How Microsoft is bad
The RIAA
Linux
Anti-intelligent design
Linux
The Death of BSD
Gaming
Linux
Open Source
How to live in your Mom's basement into your thirties
Please rephrase your question so that it asks how Open Source can fix the problem. Thank you.
Why is this story getting posted on Slashdot? I don't see the nerd content, and I don't see how it is different to any of the other storm flooding that is going on in the world all the time.
And let's not even get started on all the people being displaced from their homes and having their lifes endangered by non-weather causes.
technically, this isn't a tech sight, it's a nerd sight.
Not that this doesn't qualify as news for this sight.
Now, you wan't top discuss the terrible return policy of pet shops that sell dead parrots, Whine about Geaorge Lucas and wonder what a petrified natilie portman would look like as she poors hot grits. you're in the right place.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
How about we limit the economic incentive to rebuild such a large city in such a blatently absurd geographic area?
After every major hurricane we see federal disaster relief helping to rebuild the are hit. Why not make the relief contingent on rebuilding outside of that area, or building structures that are far more resilient to hurricane damage?
As it is, the disaster relief limits the ability of the free market economy to control risk - insurance companies won't insure for flooding in New Orleans for a good reason. Why should taxpayers bail out residents in disaster-prone areas time and time again? Mother Nature always wins in the end. But I predict that we'll see massive rebuilding and an increase in the size of the levees, and New Orleans will rebound...until the next time. Maybe 150 years time, or 300. Or maybe not that long. That we don't know, but New Orleans will still be below sea level either way. Think that evacuating ~1 million people is bad enough? What will the population there be in 150 years time?
Look at Galveston, TX. In 1900 the island city was enjoying a huge economic boom. People didn't want to believe that anything could happen to the city so when a major hurricane hit the city got obliterated. ~3600 homes destroyed and between 10,000 and 12,000 deaths. They rebuilt, and raised much of the city from a lowly 9 feet above sea level, some by a whopping 11 feet. Woohoo.
My heart goes out to those who have lost homes, belongings, pets and family.
The city was a creation of the French before the nation even existed. The city was there way before quality knowledge of the effects of hurricane given the now obvious geographical factors.
Maybe they just prohibit anyone from rebuilding there? I as a tax payer don't want to have to pay for them to rebuild because of their poor choice of where they live.
what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future? I have a solution, stop building huge cities at sea level where you could potentially encounter hurricanes.
The worst case involved the Mississippi carving a new path right through the city into the lake. You could never pump that out.
Valmeyer, IL was one of them. Yes, it relocated, but let's be fair. It was a small city of a few thousand people at most. It had no major structures, no huge downtown business area, etc. It was not very difficult to relocate a lot of the flooded areas that wanted to, because they were very small and already in rural areas with abundant land nearby.
You can't really compare a city of half a million people with a 200 year or more history to a small farm community when it comes to relocation.
Doesn't everyone already know the real reason for the hurricane?
"Yields falsehood when preceded by its own quotation" yields falsehood when preceded by its own quotation.
Sorry, but are the mods this clueless and dumb? The topic is about pumping water out of New Orleans, what the fuck does this quote have to do with the current topic?
Nothing, so let's stop trying to politicize this and try to blame Bush. It's completely offtopic, and should be modded -1. What the Bush Administration funds is not the issue here, and won't make a difference in cleaning up New Orleans.
For the rare reminder that humanity still exists amongst its callous namesakes.
Some 203 years after the fact it finally looks like the french might have made the right choice selling off Louisiana. If only they had taken that lame accent with them when they left.
There are over 8,000 National Guard members already in southern Louisiana with other states pitching in help. Not to mention the assets from the Navy and the Coast Guard that are already on the scene. Instead of focusing in on a political angle to hang your hat on, take some of the self absorbed, righteous indignation and channel to something that can actually help those affected by this natural disaster by contributing to the Red Cross or show us all how much of a wonderful, caring human being and go to Louisiana or Mississippi to pitch in.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
No, because I don't live in the midwest :D
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...
WaterWorld!!
Wikipedia says the Zuiderzee Works cost $710 million in 2004 dollars. A trillion and a half would be the entire GNP of the Netherlands for a bit more than three years.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Envy my 5 digit Slashdot User ID!
"What can be done about draining and rebuilding New Orleans in light of the massive flooding, and what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?"
/. in any other way than pseudoscientific babling or old and tired jokes.
Like that has any chance to be answered on
Its not like it wouldn't be possible to, you know, 're-build' the city somewhere else, or at least, not so obviously close to the edge of peril. And, maybe, in a way that would solve some of the cities old problems along the way too, like over-crowding, poor residences, etc.
Abandon history, I mean to say, in "New Orleans".. we don't have to have so many people all living in the 'same old historical location' just for sentiments sake, apart from the fact that there are 'too many' people who want to live in the same ol' dangerous place, 'just because'.
Move the city away from the danger; these hurricanes will keep happening.
I say we just abandon New Orleans if the damage is too extensive to rebuild. Basically, call it Americas "chernobyl" and move on. Ya, there are fond memories in that city...but sometimes it's best to not fight nature. Just leave it be. But up a memorial, rebuild refineries in other areas...but slowly, just walk away from it.
I doubt this will happen, but it would be better in the long run then supporting a city BELOW see level.
Life is not for the lazy.
Move to someplace habitable, and stop asking the rest of the country to share the costs associated with the well established risk.
I keep hearing pledges to "rebuild." Fine, but do so knowing it will happen again. I suggest that no Federal emergency funds ever be given to the same area more than once for the same type of problem. Seems to me that happened after Camille - some people simply don't learn. It's a choice to live in an at-risk area, accept the responsibility that's inherent with that risk.
News reports say that Mobile had the worst flooding in 90 years. WTF? If this happened only that long ago, get out and stop throwing good money after bad. The same goes for locations with mudslides, earthquakes, erosion, tornados, etc.
What kind of moron would build a house or business on property that is below the waterline ?
Claerly the French worked this one out when they sold out and left.
Are Americans really this stupid ?
How to prevent this from happening in the future? Build up the city somewhere else.
It would be stupid to rebuild a city in a place where it is known it will be hitted again by hurricanes in the long future. The state and federal governments ought to provide free housing, and consider the option to build a new city elsewhere. I would also say, let's build cities only in places that are not endagered by earthquakes and hurricanes every some years. I can't understand why humans keep building cities in locations where earthquakes and hurricanes happen, it's like ensuring that your grandchildren will be endagered in their life because of your (theirs' ancestor) choices.
Let me put in here my (little) experience about floodings.
I live in Venice, well in the hinterland of it. As you may know, it's a city build "on" the water. Or, better said, on a group of islands (107, exactly) in a laguna, directly connected by three connections to the mediterranean sea.
The area suffers from geological bradyseism (sinking) of few centimeters per year.
It's an irreversible process, simply leading to a worse situation as time goes by.
The city suffers an average of 50 floodings per year, with peak heigth of the water of more than a meter in the lower zones.
"Just" 40 years ago, the count of floodings per year was less than a dozen.
Lots are the analysis, conferences and general discussion on which should be best ways to limit the effects of such situation.
Well, the most common answer is: there's no solution.
It is just possible to extend the agony, not to dry up the city.
So, I agree with the cynical comment red so far: if you consider it worth, go and rebuild some kilometers faraway.
Sad but true.
Back to New Orleans - which is not Venice indeed - surely it will be possible to clean the city, polish it up and recall it to normality, but nothing assures you another similar (or even worse) flooding won't occur again, vanishing every effort.
Good luck to whose are still there.
At the very least, stop taxing everyone else to subsidize flood insurance for people who insist on building in flood-prone areas.
If they want insurance, let them pay the real cost of it. If they don't, let them take the risk themselves.
You ignore the spillover effects of such spending.
Redistributing money from areas (in the form of insurance subsidies) that don't have events to places like the Gulf and Atlantic coast states that do is a strategy by which areas important to the nation are protected and allowed to develop.
Imagine the United States without the vacation areas of Florida or the history of New Orleans.
I was joking with the wife that this storm might get that persistent urine smell out of the city. Now it looks like it is going to be smelling even WORSE.
I am in no hurry to visit there again....and I'm from Buffalo!
For what it's worth, I think the relocated "town" after the 1993 flood you are referring to was Valmeyer, Illinois. As I recall the population of that town was under 1,000... That would mean it's a little smaller than the BIG easy (I'm guessing about a half a million people). However, as I recall, FEMA refused to give money to people to rebuild at the old site, so they decided to move...
I guess it seems a bit severe to relocate an entire CITY, but you never know. It's not the cheapest thing to do, but it might be the most reasonable thing to do, but call it whatever you want, there's always gonna be a market for a bunch of people living at the mouth of the mighty mississippi...
Yeah, venice has got that flooding thing licked... not... I doubt any type of construction project in the gulf would stop a storm surge. About the only thing that people think would stop a storm surge is a huge tidal marsh area. The tidal marsh area that could have helped buffer the area is receding probably because all the levies that have been built to prevent flooding and the dredging. Hard to imagine a technological solution to this problem...
I once tried to figure out the safest place to live in the USA. I eliminated all places that have:
Tornados
Hurricanes
Earthquakes
Wildfires
Fierce Blizzards
Sweltering summers (100+ F, 40+ C)
Volcanos
Nor-Easters
Flooding
Ignored tsunamis as they are unpredictable
Had nothing left of the USA after that. Every area of the country has one probkem or another.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
The submission ends with "what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?" It's entirely ontopic to give a response like "the same things that should have been done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the recent past".
Anyone know of a web site where I can find recent Satellite and aerial photos of New Orleans?
Pumps are expected to fail soon, so I think "9 weeks" is a bit optimistic at this point. I figure it will take until the end of the year to get all the water out, at this rate.
Pumping out + cleaning up + rebuilding will = $x right?
What about just buying out what the property was worth, diving for valuables and returning them to the rightful owners, and then blowing up the whole damn thing? Would that be = $x, but as a one-time shot rather than a recurring payout which will only increase each time around...
Blow the levees... turn the whole thing into a recreational lake.
It's gotta be cheaper than redoing everything, and having to risk it reoccuring again! (maybe next year).
I truly feel sorry for the people who lost everything, but again - YOU LIVED BELOW SEA LEVEL! THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN SOONER OR LATER. DEAL WITH IT AND MOVE ON!
They buy the property in the flood plain and/or prohibit building in the flood plain. This is happening, today, on the Greenbrier River which is the longest free-flowing river in the east and also floods repeatedly.
Of course, the government has no trouble buying some innocent West Virginian's property... but look what they do in North Carolina with the million dollar homes. They don't TOUCH these and let them rebuild after they are destroyed and *assist* them in getting flood insurance.
So, in other words... if you're a developer who is lining some politicians pocket... you can continually rebuild... if you're some poor schmuck... forget it. Government owns you.
1) Don't feed the trolls
2) Don't expect civilized behaviour online
It might be cheaper to move everyone out, and turn New Orleans into rice and catfish farms.
What's the matter? Did this hit a little too close to home?
What about Iraq? It's farther away, the people are different there I'm sure. They have no compassion, and no regard for human life anyway right?
"What can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?"
Is it really possible to lessen a disaster that was prevented? I am as much a fan of boolean logic as the next guy but using the "and/or" construction so incorrectly just makes you seem silly. Next time, try sticking to just "or."
I don't know about you, but I doubt that those in charge will be held responsible.
IMHO, the real disaster is that justice has sunk so low and irresponsibility has risen so high.
Get real. There is a differnece between donating your money to those in need and having your money taken from you. If I stick a gun in your face, take your wallet, but give 25% of it to a charity, I'm I not guilty of theft? That's the point the of the original post. I have no problem giving to charitys that will help the people of New Orleans get back on their feet. What I, and many others, have a problem with is that money is taken from us without our permission by the goverment and given to these people when their is a 100% chance that a similar event will happen in the future because of the location these people choose to live in and do business in. Theft is theft, no matter how good you believe the cause to be. Let those who wish to give, give. Let those who do not, keep their money. Nobody is entitled to anyone elses hard earned property or earnings under any circumstances, period.
I realize that's hard for you to wrap your liberal head around but I don't work 8 hours a day , 5 days a week so other people can decide how to spend my hard earned dollars. I work so that I can.
What worries me is that the "toxic gumbo", with gasoline on the water and an oil tanker aground, are going to be a scarey thing to deal with. I'm afraid of fire and pollution making this even more untenable.
I also am of the suspicion that there are a lot of buildings that weren't constructed to deal with nine weeks of flooding.
It will bring land and make the chance or dike collapse a bit smaller. Major lakes near Amsterdam were poldered because they changed into dangerous waters when storms came over.
In St Louis county they reinforced the Monarch Levee and built a 2 mile long stripmall (at the time it was the world's longest stripmall). Yeah St Louis!
A beowulf cluster of Sharks with Laser beams running Linux shipped in from Soviet Russia to burn away all the water for a profit.
Remember folks, slashdot doesn't have a -1 "disagree" moderation!
After the devestation of Hurricane Andrew (I think, but I don't have time to look just right now), They took the highest point of the flooding in Toronto and turned everything below that point into protected park land. On the bright side, we now have an awful lot of (nice looking) parks.
Touched By His Noodley Appendage.
title says it all.
It'll be cheaper to select a new site that is above sea level, add modern infrastructure from the underground up, then put a modern city in. Re-wall the French Quarter and turn it into an amusement park among the ruins. Rebuilding in such a non-ideal location, after this sort of repeatable disaster, is idiotic. Not that anyone is going to listen to me.
Josh
We need a first generation of pioneers.
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
My heart goes out to the popoulation of New Orleans, and all of Louisiana and Mississippi right now. While its reputation is that of a party town, it's easy to forget that there are a lot of people who live (or perhaps lived) there who had no way out of the city.
All of that being said, however, I predict Hand Grenades will outsell Hurricanes 5:1 at Pat O's during Mardi Gras '06.
It's "no one," not "noone." Who the hell is noone anyway?
his is a massively sad event, and we get jokes?
As has been said before, and I will repeat it for you. Humor is a way for people to deal with stressfull situations. It helps relieve the stress and calm people down. Without humor, we would probably all snap or breakdown. For now, let people have their humor. It may be gallows humor, but it helps people cope. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the people here making jokes have friends/relatives in New Orleans.
(I am a US citizen, I live in VA, not that far from the Pentagon).
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
...and if you do, build your pumping stations so that they can work submerged and without grid power, so that next time, they don't ALL FAIL. It's not like we don't have the technology- submarines, for example.
How much can it cost to build a solid foundation, and put a big diesel engine with a big fuel tank either in a sealed container with a snorkle, or put the engine bits up top a high tower (with substantial reinforcement)? This ain't rocket science.
Also, why don't the levees have anything but dirt in 'em? Why can't they have periodic concrete segments or something to stop breaks from spreading and to use as a base for emergency repairs?
Please help metamoderate.
Nothing. That's the problem. There are no true drains in new orleans beacuase it's below sea level.
Break the levies and rebuild the city on the north coast of the lake.
Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I was getting progressively more frustrated by the utter insensitivity shown by the posters in this article. "Wah wah tax dollars, wah wah floodplain, wah wah just move." I suppose you all live somewhere where a natural disaster couldn't possibly ever happen?
Replace the word "water" with "rubble", U.S. with Iraq, "natural" with "politically-motivated" and a few others, and you're now talking about Fallujah. Insensitivity's just part of human nature; some would say a necessary one.
Why pump it out? It's a waste of national resources for a place that's doomed.
I say drive deep pilings, and put a new city on top of it. Might I suggest a name change to "new venice"?
You say very close to the worse case scenario. How close really? Reason ask, is that before this hit, recieved 2 emails from "information sources", saying if worst case happened it would be a national and world economic catastrophe. The reason it would be a catastrophe, supposedly, has not much to do with New Orleans- but with the Port of Louisiana, or Mississipi, I cant remember which.
Really, just a massive airdrop of sponges over the city, et voila, your problem, she is solved!
So tell me, were you planning to be the one to go around and pick up all those sponges afterwards? Dripping with mud? By hand?
the cocktail of industrial chemicals from chemical plants that were smashed.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
This reminds me of a Sam Kinison comment: "Why ship food to the Ethiopians!? Ship the Ethiopians to the food." In this case, why not move New Orleans to where the Lake was that was above the level of the city, which has now migrated to downtown New Orleans?
Why doesn't anything interesting happen when I have mod points?
to be paying for freeloading illegal aliens that are 20% of the US population and thieves like Israel that scam three Billion every year.
Time for some Ice-9?
"Someday son, this will all be yours"
Excuse me, but why should I have to pay tax dollars to a state who put a city 17 feet below sea level? This was an inevitability, and why should the FEDERAL government have to suck it up? Sure, you could 'fill in the blank' with all sorts of pork projects, but seriously, more socialism isn't the answer here.
I already made my contributions to New Orleans. I stayed in their hotels, ate their food and patronized their stores. They should have been putting more of the tax revenue into the levee system, apparently.
Kinda like counterterrorism and intelligence funding and blaming it on Clinton eh?
I think she just made about over 2 billion dollars worth of improvements over that cesspool New Orleans
"...and what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?"
Um... stop living in a coastal town that is below sea level and is prone to hurricanes???? But thats just me....
I got nothin'
I posted a torrent to the helicopter flyover video of New Orleans (from a news station earlier today) in the other hurricane-related discussion:
o rrent
http://wrpn.net/~kremit/files/wgno26flyover.wmv.t
It's about 46 minutes long and in Windows Media format (I didn't create it and didn't feel like converting it).
You know what? I completely agree. Jokes about it may be in poor taste, but hey its the internet and people(immature teens mostly) do sometimes joke to cope.
What gets my fucking goat is all the assholes who are saying "oh well, what did you fucking expect based on where you live? Fuck em". They aren't joking, they aren't using "coping mechanisms". They are just cold-hearted fucktards who could give a crap about anything in life that doesn't directly affect them. Douchebags.
Oh btw A big fuck you to the people with mod points today.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
Please tell me you are not in anyway thinking that this is a disaster even remotely comparable to the tsunami.
When they levies were built it caused siltation to build up in the Gulf instead of where it is supposed to, the banks of the Miss. They really have been asking for it. This type of development was done solely for the purposes of commercial development. FEMA forced thousands of people to move away from other parts of the Miss after multiple floods. They should do it again. Get used to this people. We are at the beginning of a 27 - 50 year cycle. Florida, Texas, Louisiana, Georgia, etc. are all going to get smacked by at least 6 category 3 or above storms per year for decades. This cycle has happened several times before and we knew it was coming.
[RIAA] says its concern is artists. That's true, in just the sense that a cattle rancher is concerned about its cattle.
As a jew, I blame god
Obviously, we jews are the chosen ones, and the people of Louisiana are heathens.
You don't see Israel getting hit with Cat 5 hurricanes do you? The only Cat 5 they have in Jerusalem are ethernet cables.
Didn't you read the signs?
"your penis must be 9 inches or above to loot from here"
It probably won't help with the flooding, but I've always thought geodesic homes as per R. Buckminster Fuller's design would be a lot more efficient at distributing the kind of wind stress these hurricanes put out.
Why do we keep building inefficient, multi-story box homes out of cheap materials in areas that regularly receive powerful storms? It can't just be a construction/insurance racket, can it?
The Battle of New Orleans
The battle of New Orleans
Long before Hurricane Katrina, New Orleans was in a precarious state -- caught in an ongoing war with the mighty Mississippi River.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By John McPhee
Aug. 30, 2005 | For those watching the near-cataclysmic results of Hurricane Katrina, and wondering how New Orleans ever fell into such a precariously vulnerable position, John McPhee's great 1989 book "The Control of Nature" offers concrete answers. Each of the three parts of the book deals with a different region where man has been at war with nature: in Los Angeles, Iceland and, most important at this moment, the lower Mississippi River. Katrina is, of course, a case of nature waging war on man. But its damage and devastation may be felt all the more in places like New Orleans, where sturdy and deeply rooted men and women have faced off with the great river we call the Mississippi again and again. In this excerpt from "Atchafalaya," the first chapter from "The Control of Nature," McPhee draws affectionate portraits of the men of the Army Corps of Engineers and others who toil on behalf of "progress." Yet, it's clear which side he comes down on in these fights. His work reminds us that there are things more powerful than we are, and that nature, however hard we try to control it, will run its course.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Something like half of New Orleans is now below sea level -- as much as fifteen feet. New Orleans, surrounded by levees, is emplaced between Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi like a broad shallow bowl. Nowhere is New Orleans higher than the river's natural bank. Underprivileged people live in the lower elevations, and always have. The rich -- by the river -- occupy the highest ground. In New Orleans, income and elevation can be correlated on a literally sliding scale: the Garden District on the highest level, Stanley Kowalski in the swamp. The Garden District and its environs are locally known as uptown.
Torrential rains fall on New Orleans -- enough to cause flash floods inside the municipal walls. The water has nowhere to go. Left on its own, it would form a lake, rising inexorably from one level of the economy to the next. So it has to be pumped out. Every drop of rain that falls on New Orleans evaporates or is pumped out. Its removal lowers the water table and accelerates the city's subsidence. Where marshes have been drained to create tracts for new housing, ground will shrink, too. People buy landfill to keep up with the Joneses. In the words of Bob Fairless, of the New Orleans District engineers, "It's almost an annual spring ritual to get a load of dirt and fill in the low spots on your lawn." A child jumping up and down on such a lawn can cause the earth to move under another child, on the far side of the lawn.
Many houses are built on slabs that firmly rest on pilings. As the turf around a house gradually subsides, the slab seems to rise. Where the driveway was once flush with the foor of the carport, a bump appears. The front walk sags like a hammock. The sidewalk sags. The bump up to the carport, growing, becomes high enough to knock the front wheels out of alignment. Sakrete appears, like putty beside a windowpane, to ease the bump. The property sinks another foot. The house stays where it is, on its slab and pilings. A ramp is built to get the car into the carport. The ramp rises three feet. But the yard, before long, has subsided four. The carport becomes a porch, with hanging plants and steep wooden steps. A carport that is not firmly anchored may dangle from the side of a house like a third of a drop-leaf table. Under the house, daylight appears. You can see under the slab and out the other side. More landfill or more concrete is packed around the edges to hide the ugly scene. A gas main, broken by the settling earth, leaks below the slab. The sealed cavity fills with gas. The house blows sky high.
"The people cannot have w
1. Build on ground that is above flood level.
2. Build structures to withstand local environmental loads (hint 1: 50 years isn't long enough; hint 2:Florida has lots of data in wind)
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
All commerce has come to a screeching halt. All citizens have been ordered to evacuate. All properties have sustained significant damage. Restoring power and phones, pumping out the flood waters, and decontaminating the drinking water is going to take a long, long time. There is no New Orleans economy anymore. New Orleans as an ongoing concern has ceased to exist.
People can't wait months and years for New Orleans to be rebuilt. They will collect their insurance checks and their federal disaster relief checks, and build new lives in other cities.
Rebuilding the city might take a few years. Rebuilding the population and the economy (rebuilding the confidence) will take many decades, and there's no guarantee it will ever happen.
They have a rather famous zoo in town. Humans to some extent can take care of themselves but I wonder what's going to happen with the animals? The ones that don't drown are likely to starve to death. Human life must come first in an emergency but it's sad they are likely to loose most of the animals to this disaster.
Folks down in New Orleans have to sweat another month or two of hurricane season. Having even a Catagory I hit the city after the devastation that's already occured would, IMHO, be the worst case scenario.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
After all, those people up there build their homes where it's cold- if they get hit with 12 feet of snow, tough shit.
And Florida- let them drown in hurricanes.
Hell, Texas is half Migrant anyway, so let them fend for themselves (shoot'em all).
Best place to live? Kansas- just watch out for the tornadoes.
I agree- I'm sick at paying for piss-poor building codes but the union works because we all carry the burden when someone else needs it.
And your tune would change when it's you that needs it.
No crap its underwater neworleans itself is underwater. Human ingenuity is a great thing but there are some areas where you just have to cut your losses and trying to maintain a city that is below sealevel on the coast is one of them. Of course if you wanted to build a giant unpentetrable wall around new orleans then maybe you could live there. But even if you did you would still have to deal with the fact that eventually it will end and then how do you get sewage out and maintain drainage.
Wise men build their house on stone .... morons build them undersealevel near the ocean
[ brakken ]
The difference is that this disaster has been widely expected. When I lived in Louisiana everyone talked about this in matter of fact terms. In fact most expected things to be far worse. Just be grateful it wasn't a cat 4 or cat 5 storm that hit a bit further west. I remember talking to the guy in charge of disaster planning for the state back in the 1980's. I asked what happens if a hurricane goes over Lake Pontchartrain. He said almost everyone dies because there is no way out of the city and no time to evacuate a few million people.
This was in the 1980's.
Everyone has known this would happen eventually but pretended it wouldn't.
I understand that for the people there this is of no comfort and we have to turn our hearts to them. I agree we should. But it was like 9/11 when many people had been trying to warn the public for years and everyone turned a deaf ear. Typically these sorts of things are well known about in advance years earlier. What's tragic isn't just the people killed and displaced. What's tragic is that this could have been prevented by not building up an area in which we knew this would happen.
We should be grateful that most of the predictions didn't happen. Because it easily could have been much, much worse.
Maybe just turn it into a North American version of Venice/St. Petersburg and call it New New Orleans.
Serves them right to build a city below sea level next to a gulf. What did you think would happen?
Maybe it's just because I live Uptown, where devastating flood waters have not yet appeared (but may soon, due to the 17th St. Canal levee breach), but I say joke on.
I just heard that there are 200-250 students trapped in a dorm in New Orleans and the floodwaters are rising and they were asking by ham radio for help.
What you're talking about is the Port of Southern Louisiana, which is located along a 50-mile stretch of the Mississippi river. Most shipping is not actually in the city of New Orleans (at least not for the past few decades). This sprawling port does not require the city of New Orleans in order to operate, although some debris will indeed have to be cleared out of the river.
It's true that it does require people in the vicinity to operate the various facilities, but there is no reason they can't be located further inland. New Orleans is in just about the worst possible spot in the region, located below sea level, in a bowl, in a swamp, between a river, lake, other lake, and the gulf.
If New Orleans were rebuilt 30-40 miles upriver, the port could continue to operate just fine, and the residents would be in a safer and more sustainable location. There is absolutely no reason to continue to maintain a city that is an average of 10 feet below sea level, when there is perfectly good above-sea-level land not very far away.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Yeah, I understand that, but man, people are actively dying right now. How about just a tad more respect at this very moment, and then make your jokes?
Too soon
from encyclopediadramatic.com
The battle cry of fucktards too pu55y to play the OMG OFFENSIVE!!1! card when confronted with off-colour humour. It is basically an attempt to play thought police without seeming uncool, a wishy-washy middle ground that seems to say "hey, I'm as up for black comedy as anyone, but this is inappropriate at this time." In other words, the speaker is alleging that whatever it is that offended him will somehow magically become funny and not offensive with age, perhaps with further fermentation.
The purpose of choosing "too soon" over "offensive" is, of course, to avoid being chastised for prudery or censorship. In this capacity it is surprisingly effective: instead of seeming like a reactionary moron, the person crying "TOO SOON!" seems like a spineless moron.
Nevertheless, the net intended effect of a claim that a joke is TOO SOON is the same as that of a claim that it's offensive: a desire to make the offending party STFU and conform with the speaker's chosen beliefs and opinions.
TOO SOON is often adopted for dramatic or ironic effect by dramacrats and trolls. Shortly following the azn tsunami disasters, many people adopted the use of the pun spelling "Too Tsun!" to mock those incapable of finding the humour in the briny deaths of millions.
List of Things That Are Too Soon
* The Holocaust (not too soon as of 03:23, 4 Apr 2005 UTC)
* Terri Schiavo
* 9/11
* The Pope
* And now, hurricane Katrina
Guess I misread this
I just found the box to change my sig. Um.... [timeless witticism].
Don't live in a city that is surrounded by water and is below sea level...
and what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?
Hurricanes are a natural weather event, we can't stop or control them. So how about we get out of their way?
"Grab them by the pussy" -- President of the United States of America
::Ahem::
The Holocaust is funny because die Jüden are still whining about it.
Terri Schiavo is funny because of the ridiculous Republican media circus that surrounded it, furthering my belief that conservatives are in fact not human.
9/11 is funny for obvious reasons. Jews did WTC (LOLJEWS).
The Pope is funny, because I'm sorry, anybody that tells a bunch of starving Africans that condoms are bad deserves to die and be laughed at.
Hurricane Katrina is funny because these morons that live in Florida and the gulf don't know how to deal with a common occurance. Sorry, that's funny for me. I live in Los Angeles and my building is prepared for a massive earthquake.
Superdome without ventilation? ...
At least Katrina was kind enough to open up a few holes in the roof for them
What with global warming and rising ocean levels, cities below sea level just aren't feasible.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
They don't bury the dead in New Orleans. The highest point in the city is only 6 ft. above sea level, which makes for watery graves. Fearful that rotting corpses caused epidemics, the city limited ground burials in 1830. Mausoleums built on soggy cemetery grounds became the final resting place for generations. Beyond providing a macabre tourist attraction, these "cities of the dead" serve as a reminder of the Big Easy's vulnerability to flooding. The reason water rushes into graves is because New Orleans sits atop a delta made of unconsolidated material that has washed down the Mississippi River.
Think of the city as a chin jutting out, waiting for a one-two punch from Mother Nature. The first blow comes from the sky. Hurricanes plying the Gulf of Mexico push massive domes of water (storm surges) ahead of their swirling winds. After the surges hit, the second blow strikes from below. The same swampy delta ground that necessitates above-ground burials leaves water from the storm surge with no place to go but up.
The fact that New Orleans has not already sunk is a matter of luck. If slightly different paths had been followed by Hurricanes Camille, which struck in August 1969, Andrew in August 1992 or George in September 1998, today we might need scuba gear to tour the French Quarter.
"In New Orleans, you never get above sea level, so you're always going to be isolated during a strong hurricane," says Kay Wilkins of the southeast Louisiana chapter of the American Red Cross.
During a strong hurricane, the city could be inundated with water blocking all streets in and out for days, leaving people stranded without electricity and access to clean drinking water. Many also could die because the city has few buildings that could withstand the sustained 96- to 100-mph winds and 6- to 8-ft. storm surges of a Category 2 hurricane. Moving to higher elevations would be just as dangerous as staying on low ground. Had Camille, a Category 5 storm, made landfall at New Orleans, instead of losing her punch before arriving, her winds would have blown twice as hard and her storm surge would have been three times as high.
Yet knowing all this, area residents have made their potential problem worse. "Over the past 30 years, the coastal region impacted by Camille has changed dramatically. Coastal erosion combined with soaring commercial and residential development in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama have all combined to significantly increase the vulnerability of the area," says Sandy Ward Eslinger, of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration's Coastal Services Center in Charleston, S.C. Early Warning
Emergency planners believe that it is a foregone conclusion that the Big Easy someday will be hit by a scouring storm surge. And, given the tremendous amount of coastal-area development, this watery "big one" will produce a staggering amount of damage. Yet, this doesn't necessarily mean that there will be a massive loss of lives.
The key is a new emergency warning system developed by Gregory Stone, a professor at Louisiana State University (LSU). It is called WAVCIS, which stands for wave-current surge information system. Within 30 minutes to an hour after raw data is collected from monitoring stations in the Gulf, an assessment of storm-surge damage would be available to emergency planners. Disaster relief agencies then would be able to mobilize resources--rescue personnel, the Red Cross, and so forth.
The $4.5 million WAVCIS project, which is now coming on line, will fill a major void in the Louisiana storm warning system, which was practically nonexistent compared to those of other Gulf Coast states. A system of 20 "weat
If you need to choose, live in a quake region. Sure they're unpredictable, and the first one or two might make you poop yourself. However, if you don't live or work on landfill, in a dated structure, or by a major fault line, you'll be fine.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
As difficult as it is to think about abandoning New Orleans, the grim reality is this:
1. Almost the entire city is inundated. Except for some tall and modern downtown buildings, most of the residential areas are going to be not worth salvaging,they will have to be rebuilt from scratch, even if the city is pumped dry. These buildings will be soaking the the fetid stew of stagnant polluted water for weeks, if not months. Anything made of wood will be turned to mulch.
2. Most of the major highways that serve the city are heavily damaged. It will take many months, if not years to reconnect the city properly to the rest of the world, and cost billions of dollars.
3. Same can be said for the other infrastructure, such as water, sewer, electrical, and communications infrastructure.
4. Even if the downtown high-rises are relatively unscathed (and most have pretty serious glass breakage) who will stay in the area to work in them or occupy them.
5. The levee system needs extensive repairs to hold back even another tropical storm or category one hurricane. It is not unreasonable to expect another tropical cyclone to form in the gulf and affect that part of the coast before repairs can be completed.
6. Even if the levees are reinforced against another Category 4/5 hurricane, New Orleans faces other threats to its viability as a city. Upriver, the Mississippii River is held back by huge dikes to prevent it from finding a new route to the sea. Someday, these defenses will be overwhelmed, and Old Man River will take a shortcut to the west, abandoning its current channel, cutting off New Orleans and the water flow that keeps its shipping channels clear.
To abandon New Orleans would mean abandoning over 400 years of tradition, history, and a unique and quirky culture unlike anywhere else in the country. Without a vision to keep the survivors in the region, most likely they would disperse throughout the rest of the country, as the article noted. The geography of the area provides no easy answers, there is not a whole lot of good buildable land that can be used to build a new city nearby, but there are better locations to build than the current location.
Perhaps it is the Sim City enthusiast in me, but perhaps the destruction of New Orleans would give us a chance to rebuild a city from scratch, and avoid some of the mistakes that were made in the original town. It would be a mistake as well though, to rebuild New Orleans in the same sterile and souless style as many modern suburbs are, as it would be to try to rebuild an exact replica of it upriver somewhere.
While I understand that a hurried evacuation is a highly chaotic situation, and there were undoubtedly many foolhardy people who simply decided not to leave, I fail to understand why everybody that wanted to go couldn't have been shifted. Certainly, I would hope that if *I* was in a place where everybody who could drive out was told to evacuate, every possible effort would be made to provide some transport to those who didn't have their own. Heck, if I were evacuating and somebody needed a lift out of there, I'd certainly throw away any crap I was carrying to offer them a ride. Goods are replaceable, people's lives aren't.
Or am I grossly misinterpreting the situation?
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Hey, it didn't offend me personally because I have a very strong sense of humor, and I'm not offendable. I like dark humor. But I am also empathetic, something I see lacking in much online discussion. And my empathy for what those poor folks must be going through right now, hearing the spouses breaking down in tears for their lost loved ones, and thinking about the hell that is about to face tens of thousands of people there, and I felt that joking about them was too soon. If some non-empathetic person created an encyclopedia entry to make it seem like it's OK to joke about the dead as they are dying, well fine. I'm guilty for being empathetic. I sleep well at night.
Build houses that lift on posts. Hidraulics might help here (mobile ones that is).
Perhaps it just isn't sustainable to live below sea level. At some stage of the game, regardless of *why* the city is sinking, it might be time to say "you know what? It just isn't cost effective to live in this spot" and move on. The sea will eventually have its way.
Besides 90% of the population of NO is black and the city as a whole is extremly liberal. This entire red state/blue state thing is really stupid anyway. Look at the breakdown by county and it's not so easy to divide the vote by state anymore.
Considering tornados can happen anywhere in the world, I say your full of crap on a disaster never happening to you.
I find it amazing that a sincere plea for someone else's safety was modded down.
This is not Iraq.
"My sister may be ugly, but damned be the man who calls her that" - Unknown
We give you guys alot of shit...and you talk funny...but we couldn't ask for a better neighbor.
Sorry, that's neighbour isn't it...
Move the town 5 miles down the road.
Dear Senator,
I find it disturbing that there are no federal regulations to counter the record increasing gas prices. For instance, why hasn't there been oil refineries built in the past 30 years? Maybe to restrict the flow of oil, thus manipulating supply and demand? This kind of monopolistic jockeying is a failure of both the oil companies (who obviously love it) and those who are supposed to represent the American people.
Something to consider:
Television production began in the late 1930s, 30 years after the production of vehicles. The FCC, however, has announced changes to broadcasting by issuing a requirement for digital television to be in place by December 31, 2006, only a few years after the technology has been possible.
The Department of Energy, on the other hand, has yet to issue such decrees for transportation and other high energy demanding products, even though capabilities of hydrogen fuel cells have been know since the late sixties. Of course, one might say that even though it was know, the capabilities of production could not have met our needs. To counter that, I would say that very little funding was put forth for such research and development. Now, however, even with the capability of hydrogen production at quantitative and cost effective levels (using amoeba), little is being done to facilitate further advancements, let alone set reasonable deadlines to migrate to these new technologies. In fact, moving to alternative (non-fossil) sources of energy is the only solution.
So, senator, there is one question that you need to answer that will surely influence my vote:
Who do you represent?
Why don't you live your way and let others live theirs'?
I think you'll find things a lot easier if you just concentrate on being the best person you can be and stop trying to tell others how to live.
Does it even really take away much from your existence if others make poor jokes and you just turn away?
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
The Dutch probably have the best aquatic geologists on the planet. We could certainly use their expertise in drying the place up. The Norwegians have more cruise ships than any other nation, and they could be leased to provide temporary housing (FEMA has a few ships for this purpose, but they usually house FEMA employees). The Italian engineers who manage pulic works for Venice would be very helpful in this situation. We could do it without their help; we could do it easier with their help.
Perhaps he has INSURANCE and thus doesn't need big-daddy Federal Government to bail him out.
I'm one of those people who complain about 100+ million dollar sports teams who force taxpayers to build stadiums for them from taxdollars, but there would be 10000+ people who would be SOL without the Superdome. I'm sure people would have scoffed at the idea of funding the dome because "it might come in handy in a natural disaster" but it has definitely saved alot of lives.
This will be a true test of government using technology since we are looking at a natural disaster in a highly populated, highly advanced city (we're not looking at '2nd' world islands like the tsunamis).
Considering technology has helped up conclude the high probability of this event, the tools to monitor the amount of damage/intensity, the history of the area (interpolation/modeling/simulation), and has gven us the facts to date. It is now up to the execution of the people's will, i.e. the policies and laws. Considering the policy/culture of the last few years is 'everyman for himself', the future looks tough. In the end, just like the SF earthquake and H. Andrew in the mid-90's, are we making the best use of technology and knowledge (in particular science)? have we learned anything from history [thru tech]?
I see about 6-8 months to return to some form of a modern US city. I think it took about a year for the victims of hurricane Andrew. If that is so, then technology is working as we expect. Then again is the rest of the country suffers (ecomonically, infrastruture, transportation, policy, etc...), then technology likely isn't being used properly.
I couldn't find a video, nor a legal mp3, but "It Can't Be Nashville Every Night" is a good start. "He said fuck this and fuck that. And this guy's a diplomat." ... cracks me up every time.
http://umusic.ca/site/media/thehip/video/inbetween evolution/itcantbenashville_320.mov
Has George finally decided to go back to work yet? I noticed that he was still traveling around on his wartime PR tour today. He mentioned Louisiana for about a minute or two... and then he moved right back to freedom, terrorists, and some other redundant talking points.
Considering the dead bodies on roof tops and attics, a destroyed major city, and the danger of a potential recession, you'd think the guy would be trying to do something more significant.... or at least trying to LOOK like he was doing something significant.
ehh.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
Bourbon blues on the street loose and complete
Under skies all smoky blue-green
I can Forksake the dixie dead shake
So we dance the sidewalk clean
My memory is muddy what's this river I'm in
New Orleans is sinking and I don't want to swim
Colonel Tom What's wrong? What's Going On
You can't tie yourself up for a deal
He said" Hey North you're south shut you big mouth
You gotta do what you feel is real."
Ain't got no picture postcards ain't go no souvenirs
My baby she don't know me when I'm thinking about thoes years
Pale as a light bulb hanging on a wire
Sucking up to someone just stoke the fire
Picking out the highlights of the scenery
Saw a little cloud looked a little like me
I had My hand in the river
My feet back up on the banks
Looked up to the lord above and said hey man thanks
Some time I fell so good I gotta scream
She says Gordie baby I know exactly what you mean
She said, she said I swear to god she said
My memory is muddy what's this river I'm in
New Orleans is sinking and I don't want to swim
You're all in a tizzy over helping New Orleans, but you don't have a problem spending $1B/Day to keep our Iraqi colony subdued?
I think your priorities are screwed up.
You don't just plug anyone in a green suit into any job that needs doing.
So, basically I have to feel sorry for people who repeatedly make dumb choices?
Sure there are people who are getting hit and hurt by this that did the best they could, who had limited options. But I can guarantee that there will be people who will re-build in the same damn place, waiting for it to happen again because "it's my family's land. My daddy died for this land!"
i don't feel sorry for people who smoke and get cancer, I don't feel sorry for Republicans who voted for George Bush and I don't feel sorry for people that insist on building in places where they know they will be fucked.
For the people who have no choice, for all the children that this is so painful for I am truly sad. For everyone else, deal.
I mod everyone down who says "I'll get modded down for this." I hate to disappoint.
If it keeps on rainin', the levee's goin' to break
If it keeps on rainin', the levee's goin' to break
And if the levee break, won't got no place to stay
After the 1900 hurricane that killed between 6000 and 12000 people, the city of Galveston rebuilt while raising the entire city by up to 17 feet.
Or did you just spend the night at a Holiday Inn?
Remember folks, slashdot doesn't have a -1 "disagree" moderation!
build it on land ABOVE SEA LEVEL. Who's stupid idea was to build it below sea level? If the area is really so heavily damaged, re-build elsewhere, maybe about 35 km to the north-west. Yes, it will be a massive undertaking. But hell, isn't it already?
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
we can blame this on the french?
-- Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; New Orleans Times-Picayune, June 8, 2004
Let the Bush bashing begin, at least, according to some.
Funding for work on New Orleans' flood prevention system slowed to a trickle in 2003, and many people (long before Monday) claimed that was due to the Iraq war. Did GW bet that he wouldn't need the money for New Orleans levees, and decided to shift it to the war instead?
Looks like a bad bet.......
Wonder if Congress will look into this?
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I've seen that show, and it's just not as good as the original...
Physicist, consultant, science communicator
New Orleans is under water, and you want to send bait? Brilliant! I'll take 200 lbs of 'quid, a hundred pounds of 'rimp, and about 50 lbs of 'una.
(Boy those Brits sure talk funny.)
My sister has lost her house in New Orleans. Her father-in-law may be dead.
/. to get some "sarcasm and wit" to help relieve the stress.
I have spent the last two days scouring news sites and LA websites and user forums for information.
I decided to read the posts on
Pimp my ride baby!
is that once one goes many times they'll follow the same path due to the winds being in the same configuration. funny they thought the carolinas were going to get it this year. im in homestead. we got ALOT of flooding when katrina came through here as a strong category 1. see here for the pictures
http://cixel.livejournal.com/1109022.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
Can I get a +1 'Tru Dat' mod?
You have a constitutionally protected right to be wrong, and I the right to ignore you.
Try the Oregon Coast, or the Willamette Valley (think Portland, OR). Every few years we get a wind storm, but it's more entertaining than damaging. And it snows about the same frequency. And the average temp in the winter is about 40, and in the summer it's about 90. Very nice.
Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
Sure sounds like the easiest solution to me...
Understood.
And then, America, think about how this has been your gift to Iraq.
Jeff Parish President. Residents will probably be allowed back in town in a week, with identification only, but only to get essentials and clothing. You will then be asked to leave and not come back for one month.
FEMA numbers to begin assistance process 1-800-621-FEMA or http://www.fema.gov./
(Disclaimer; I'm not associated with FEMA. Message copied from wwltv.com. AFAIA conserned this message is provided "as is".)
Your forgetting, this is the U.S. We dont need to CONVINCE libya of anything, we just need to liberate them.
I'm never been to New Orleans but I wonder if it would be possible to use a floodway?
Winnipeg (Manitoba's provincial capital - Canada) has the 47 km Red River floodway that has saved the city from flooding a number of times.
I have just quickly looked at some maps of New Orleans and the surrounding area - it seems to me that a floodway starting west of Lutcher and curving south around the bottom of the city would allow water from the Mississippi river to be diverted into a large reservoir or possibly connect the floodway directly into Little Lake and then out into Barataria Bay.
And No, I'm not talking about diverting the whole river - just redirecting water during potential floods. I think it still would be necessary to build dikes for other areas of New Orleans.
I've included a wikipedia link for the Red River Floodway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_Floodway
One way to get more than one use out of a floodway - build it between a seperated highway( freeway) ie the floodway is in the middle of two multi-lane raised ground roads.
Like I said earlier - never been to New Orleans so maybe this idea is way off because of the geography and/or land use.
Or at least it easier to joke about it than to think about it. Hell many people joke about bad stuff that happens to them, personally.
I have no problem simultaneously saying "good riddenance to a stinky, corrupt, crime-ridden city like New Orleans [ha, ha, big picture, funny]" and sending a nice big check to the Red Cross [individuals who really are hurting, empathy]...
What's your point? Misery is the basis of a lot of jokes.
Do Both!
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
What we really need is one ginormous sponge, Bob.
Sometimes, one has to wonder if our shortsightedness even has limits.
* Increasing consumption as we run out of oil.
* No legitimate contingincy plan in case of asteroid colision.
* Massive individual credit card debt
and the list goes on... (but feel free to add to it; I want to see what I forgot.)
is the mandatory fly in by George W. (in flight suit) to declare is concern for New Orleans and all of the southeast coast? Perhaps there will be some sound bite opportunities to push his Social Security plan and the war in Iraq.
But it was like 9/11 when many people had been trying to warn the public for years and everyone turned a deaf ear.
Just my opinion, but it was probably a lot more likely a scenario for New Orleans to get hit by a hurricane than for the Twin Towers to get hit by airplanes flow by terrorists.
Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
WTF?
Politicians need to get real and expand from narrow-mindedness. Yes, it's a tragedy, yes, we weren't prepared, yes, it's a natural disaster, but here we have a politican compare a flood to an atomic bomb (made to destroy everything...forever, unexpected to it's people, and was done on purpose). And I'm surprised no politician mentioned a comparsion to the SE Asia tsunami. I'm sorry, but politics have sunk to a new low.Please. I have sympathy for the Big Easy folks. But, to pick just one of many examples, guess how many African kids (under 5) die each year from malaria? 3.5 million. About 10,000/day. Every day, including the day Katrina hit New Orleans. OK, I get it, Slashdotters aren't joking about the malaria victims. But on the scale of tragedy this is just nothing. It's not even big as hurricanes go. Bangladesh lost 300,000-500,000 to a typhoon in 1970 and another 140,000 or so in 1991. I mean, damn!
Don't use our money, taken from us by the Feds, to subsidize stupid choices. Maybe before too long, people might decide it's not worth living in a city where you're going to have severe flooding issues on a yearly basis. This also applies well to many other coastal areas.
Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
Well, the frequencies don't actually appear that different. The WTC had two terrorist attacks in 30 years while New Orleans appears to have 34 hurricanes or tropical storms in the past 134 years. Of those storms they had 11 hurricanes hit nearby (rather than tropical storms, "brushes" by hurricanes, or hurricanes that came overland from the Atlantic coast). The frequencies naively appear similar.
Our government liberated Panama from Columbia so we could dig a big ditch.
Seriously, I just don't get why these people don't learn. A lot of people right now probably feel like they should feel sorry for them, but these people made a conscious choice to live there knowing full well the consequences.
Year after year they get smacked with hurricanes, sometimes on multiple occasions, yet the common sense to get the hell outta there eludes them. Never once do they think, "Gee, maybe we shouldn't live here since there are HURRICANES EVERY SINGLE YEAR."
This isn't something random, like a tsunami. This is something that repeats itself year after year after year. I mean, it's so frequent they have cute lil names for them that go in alphabetical order.
If you're gonna sit and play in the freeway, don't act all surprised if your ass gets hit by a car.
Something like this happens and people are all shocked and surprised and "devastated". Look at how much money is gonna be wasted fixing this city when in another few years the same exact thing will happen again.
Thousands upon thousands of homes destroyed... imagine what these people cough up for insurance. They need to take this chance to use their insurance money to get the hell outta there and consider it a tough lesson learned.
Anywhere but there...
Many people might think "well all the people in California are pretty stupid too," but earthquakes actually aren't all that bad. The destruction you hear about are often in major structures not properly set up to deal with them - and most homes are just fine. I've been through MANY earthquakes, and as long as you do some proper arranging of things (ie not setting expensive stuff near edges of shelves), you'll be fine.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
The stragglers in the hotels who couldn't get a flight? Or, the stragglers in the shacks who couldn't afford to leave?
A much better one would be fuckthesouth.com
If he paid money for the website, he must know what he's talking about, right?
We're Americans and we don't take no shit from no one, not the terrorists, not Iraqi's, not the french, and least of all from Mother Nature. If Mother Nature doesn't want us building there, that's her problem. Cuz we'll build there whether she likes it or not, cuz we don't take no shit from no one. Not from angry commies like you, not from bitter old hags like Mother Nature.
"Oooh, so Mother Nature needs a favor?! Well maybe she should have thought of that when she was besetting us with droughts and floods and poison monkeys! Nature started the fight for survival, and now she wants to quit because she's losing. Well I say, hard cheese."
Wow. This comment reminds me of what the mayor of nawlins said earlier: "This is our Tsunami." Wow. Think about that a second. By the time all this is over less than 200 people will have lost their lives compared to over 100,000 in southeast asia. I wonder how many of those villagers had insurance? Or job skills and the financial ability to relocate? Whiners! Damn straight! Where's our relief money from Thailand?! Frickin idiots...
Calm down dude. They don't have power now, so they cant read the jokes on slashdot. It is the circle of life, on display.
The Deportation of the Acadians
..don't panic
"ABSORB WATER TODAY WITH SIMPSON'S INDIVIDUAL WATER ABSORB-A-TEX STRINGETTES! AWAY WITH FLOODS!"
Mr Simpson: You just said it was waterproof!
Exec: "AWAY WITH THE DULL DRUDGERY OF WORKADAY TIDAL WAVES! USE SIMPSON'S INDIVIDUAL FLOOD PREVENTERS!"
Mr Simpson: You're mad!
Exec: Shut up, shut up, shut up! Sex, sex sex, must get sex into it. Wait, I see a television commercial-
There's this nude woman in a bath holding a bit of your string. That's great, great, but we need a doctor, got to have a medical opinion.
There's a nude woman in a bath with a doctor--that's too sexy. Put an archbishop there watching them, that'll take the curse off it. Now, we need children and animals.
There's two kids admiring the string, and a dog admiring the archbishop who's blessing the string. Uhh...international flavor's missing...make the archbishop Greek Orthodox. Why not Archbishop Macarios? No, no, he's dead... nevermind, we'll get his brother, it'll be cheaper... So, there's this nude woman....
The Cheese Stands Alone.
Anyone else read: "9 weeks to pimp out New Orleans"?
Goals for 2011: 1. Stop plate tectonics. 2. Prevent animal predation. 3. End supernovae now. 4. Rid the world of evil.
If you were dealing with just building over water, you might be fine, but this is New Orleans we're talking about. The alcohol content of the water there makes this entirely impractical.
is why there's not a mention of katrina on google news' front page....
While getting hit by planes wasn't, after abundant warnings and an attempted destruction by terrorists a few years earlier, it shouldn't have been the shock it was. The problem is that we as a culture are reactive rather than proactive.
Nerds can spell. Cya later!
In the 1830s-1840s over 90 % of federal tax money was collected from the south, while most of the
federal spending was in the north.
I'd say this is reciprocity....
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
"I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit...it's the only way to be sure..."
This is required viewing for all people of prayer.
Viewing note: Unless you have the ActiveX plugin for Firefox which allows embedded Windows Media, you will need to load the page in Internet Explorer.
I don't recall Robertson leading a coup attempt, arresting his opponents, or arming his own private militia.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The Titanic, after the collision, ran its bilge pumps full blast until it sank. While the pumps obviously couldn't keep it from sinking, they did add a lot of extra time for the Titanic, saving more lives.
Of course, its easy to Monday morning quarterback from a dry room in Wisconsin.
Most of New Orelans will be rebuilt. What can be done to prevent a catastrophe like this from happening again? I see three options:
1. Increase the height of the levees. Feasible, conventional, but people don't want to be walled off from the water. And even if they add another 10', an even larger hurricane will eventually come along.
2. Demolish the buildings located below sea-level, and add fill to raise the ground level of the entire city above sea-level. That would be a massive earth-moving project, and would require complete demolition of most of the city, including buildings that have survived Katrina reasonably well.
3. Construct buildings to withstand flooding. All buildings that will be rebuilt in the next few years, and all new buildings, could be required by the local bulding code to withstand inundation to sea-level + 5'. Hospitals and schools could be designed to be watertight, other buildings so that inhabitants can retreat to the attic for an extended period. Some buildings might be on piles, others might be strong reinforced masonry for the lower stories. This would increase construction costs substantially, but would greatly diminish the consequences of any future flooding.
While a lot of the media is directed at New Orleans, the major damage can be seen elsewhere. Take a look at this lengthy video clip if you really want to see some jaw dropping footage:
Mississippi Gulf Coast Damage from Skycopter 3. It looks a lot like the images of tsunami a while back.
The Death Penalty: Killing people to show others that killing people is wrong.
From today's Financial Times:
No greater love hath one post-industrial nation-collective have than this, that they lay down their refined gasoline supplies for another.
That's provided, of course, that we determine that we actually need it. One of the chief reasons we don't get foreign aid is that we never actually ask for any.
...will the new city be called "New New Orleans"?
I already had my disaster last year. At least you had some warning(day and a half) and were told to leave. We had none. I can't be sympathetic about people too stupid to leave during a mandatory evacuation. You hung yourselves in a man made disaster prone area, take responsibility for it and die. I had to pull myself out of my disaster. FEMA helped me little to nothing. I had to fight the insurance company for every dime.(no government help) Bush will be running to fund your asses, there weren't enough voters in my disaster for him to care(fund support for local government not the public). At least mine was an actual natural disaster and not a man-made one. You got what was coming now take heed and move somewhere else.
>>"I stayed in their hotels, ate their food and patronized their stores."
>You forgot "looked at their boobies"
Isn't it more like ""looked at other tourist's boobies"?Who will take up the slack?
-- it's ridiculous how many people misspell ridiculous... (damn, damn, damn...)
Google always has links on the front page to aid international disasters, where's the link to aid Americans, many of which were too poor to escape or to make it through the damage and repair cycles?
Funny, I don't see anyone from the international community jumping to our aid. When the tsunami hit Indonesia, people were screaming at the U.S. to "give, give, give". Now that we've had our own "tsunami", where's the comeback. The oil rich countries are making a killing this year on the U.S. buying it price gouging oil, where's the damn help? Next time someone has a problem, I say go F*&% YOURSELF, international community.
Not true. Luxemburg has a much higher GDP per capita. And several other countries are about equal to the US. Especially if you take into account other factors, such as national debt, savings/investment rates, standards of living, expected life-span, etc.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
How about calling it New New Orleans, then ;-)
I'm confused.
... the best religion!
... the very religion that proclaims that 'thou shalt not kill' but allows for a prominent christian figure to stand up on TV praying to God for Him to smite more people on the supreme court so that people of the ultra conservative slant can be put in power.
... yet when He finally takes action, and attempts to correct the audacious and just plain stupid creation of a major city below sea level, on the ocean and below a lake ... alllll the sheep ran away instead of facing their punishment! What about his plan? Why are you trying to thwart it?
... Punishing you for how you've let your leaders bend the lessons simply to grab more power, more oil, and to make the murder of 100's of thousands of innocent non-christians in the middle-east appear to be His will.
The south is mighty religious, and not any of those bad religions
- The one and only religion accepted by the rulers of the USA despite the constitutionally garuanteed freedom of religion, Christianity!
I'm confused!
It's all in God's plan, and no one can presume to understand His grand thoughts and actions
God is finally striking back for the evil way His Son's teachings have been manipulated into the repression of free and open thought and belief for all humankind.
I just don't understand.
If there really are so many millions of devout christians in the south, why didn't they accept the wrath of their god, stand on the beach and take what they deserved in a great glorious bloody gooey explosion instead of presuming to know better, to try to outsmart Him, and run away?
This will only lead to more doom and destruction on the pathetic USA and their narrowminded dumbass citizens.
Don't we have enough open space in this country that people don't need to live BELOW sea level? If you want to live like fish get some scuba gear and a boat.
Katrina and The Waves!
I'm going to hell..
I think New Orleans may be the first "National Sacrifice" area in the new Warmer Earth. Regardless of WHY the planet is warming, the fact is, IT IS, and places like New Orleans and Holland are going to get fucked.
So, DON'T LIVE THERE.
Especially as Energy increases in price, these kinds of disasters will become increasingly difficult to recover from. Since "New" Orleans can't be New New Orleans, maybe we can rebuilt it farther upstream and on higher ground, and call it something like "Big Easytown" or "Steaming Shithole for stupid alkies"... or something more whimsical like MardiGrasVille....
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
The Web presence of Shirley Laska, the author of the "prescient study" in question, along with the entire IP block of the University of New Orleans--representing thousands of Netizens--has in the last 48 hours disappeared from the face of the internet. Perhaps the Net itself is designed to survive a disaster in a single location, but modern communications, even the internet (maybe, based on these events, _especially_ the internet) seem to be completely, blindingly inadequate to cope with a natural disaster of this magnitude at the location of the disaster itself. Can the Net help what it cannot see?
Because they are the poorest of the poor, who could not afford to leave the city and who are now hungry and scavenging for food and drink. There are some looting of high value stuff, but 'stealing' food is perfectly acceptable actually and probably perfectly legal under these circumstances.
Oh well, what the hell...
Maybe this might be the very chance to maybe do what could be the greatest engineering project of the 21st Century: replace New Orleans and carve out a new, safer outlet for the Mississippi River.
It could be breathtakingly expensive (maybe as much as US$3 trillion in 2005 dollars), but it may be worth it if not only do we get a city that will be far less flood-prone to both the rising Mississippi Rive and the the occasional hurricane, but also a completely new, state-of-the-art shipping port that could be the biggest and most advanced in the world.
Let the water stay, and rename the town to New Venice. Get a bunch of gondolas...and start service the town.
Why don't we impeach Bush, who cut the funding for New Orleans preparations for an inevitable storm like Katrina?
"Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. "
We've heard Bush tell us war requires sacrifice. So he's cut taxes for the rich, which has salvaged the economy only for the rich. That sacrifice is coming only from the thousands of people who have died in Iraq, and now the rest of the country will start to feel the neglect. It's a shame that New Orleans, whose citizens voted to get rid of Bush, was the first undeniable sacrifice to cover our TVs. But they won't be the last.
The question is whether we will sacrifice Bush himself to save ourselves, or whether the $45TRILLION in debts he's so far committed us to will sacrifice us to his agenda instead. New Orleans is down the drain now. Will we all follow it? Or will we toss out the crap that's rotting inside us, all the way at the top?
--
make install -not war
At least thats what this article says.
5 .htm
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N3030679
God help us if it fails. Not that I live in New Orleans, but if it really does stay flooded with 10-20' of water for 9 weeks, there won't be anything left, especially of the beautiful portions, like the French Quarter.
As it is, if the city dried out tomorrow, it would take a month to determine the safety of various buildings, and another month to repair them.
2 months for pumping, 2 months for repair.
In all honest, that would be the end of the city.
Right now, the federal government needs to give the army corp of engineers an unlimited budget to fix the leeves & pumping system as fast as physically possible.
Quite frankly, loosing New Orleans, one of the most historic cities in the U.S., would be a great tradgey. We're spending any unlimited amount of money to rescue everyone who remains stranded in the city; I hope the government maintains this level of urgency for the repair operations.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
Wrong, the Dutch Delta Plan as it is called consist of enough raw material to rebuild the Great Wall... TWICE
You never catch me alive
"Canada sent condolences to the victims and offered help.
g ename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1 125397185530&call_pageid=968332188492&col=96879397 2154&t=TS_Home&DPL=IvsNDS%2F7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes
Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan said she told Michael Chertoff, the U.S. secretary of homeland security, that Canada was ready to provide assistance if needed."
from
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pa
Of the things to joke about, death is one of the funnier things- second only to someone else falling into a sewer just before slipping on the expected banana peel.
Why should we dwell on all the bad things as you ask when instead we can find something to laugh about. Millions of people die terrible, painful, untimely deaths every day around the world. Have you been avoiding laughing your entire life, every day, to honor those who die untimely deaths each day?
Help the people in trouble and if at all possible find some way to help them laugh- sometimes laughter is the only way to stay sane. In any case, we have a right to laugh about anything we find funny (and you have a right to bitch about it).
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
> No legitimate contingincy plan in case of asteroid colision.
Plan in case of Asteroid Collision:
1. dress in all black, except for white sneakers
2. castration
3. cloth over your head
4. take heroic dose of something
5. lay down, wait for the comet
6. !?!?
7. Prophet!
"What can be done about draining and rebuilding New Orleans in light of the massive flooding, and what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?"
Signing the Kyoto agreement would be a start...
I've already drawn up plans, but I put the city in the lake to the north.
Neo Orleans, floating megacity.
I've got images too
Neo Orleans
nola.com was reporting that police were facilitating the looting of food and essentials from area Wal-Marts, and the people getting said food and essentials basically outnumbered the police 20 to 1 and went berserk, grabbing flat-screen TVs and those crappy Linspire computers they sell.
That doesn't explan all the looting, but the Wal-Mart was where it was worst. That Wal-Mart was gutted, and when you think about that, it's definately a feat to pull off - removing every single item of any value from a store that big, without any real vehicles or equipment, in a matter of hours.
I posted this NG article in the previous story so it's a dupe, but a damn eerie one.
The Stone Age did not end because humans ran out of stones. - William McDonough
New Orleans is where it is for historical and economic reasons, and maybe, just maybe, you are just too dumb to see it (oh, yeah, I know, you are a nerd, you couldn't possibly miss the obvious). However, the important thing now is that there are people dying, dead, and suffering. If your *money* is too important to help other people in need, no matter if it was given or taken from taxes, then you are an asshole.
Charlestonian
Something like 80% of Arizona's water usage goes to farms. The way water is used on these farms is shockingly inefficient.
Arizona could sustain two or three times its current population with surface water sources if not for agricultural usage.
The farmers and other big water users have always held a great deal of political power in the arid West, but that is changing. When housewives in Scottsdale see the grass in their yards dying off because of mandatory water restrictions, the current allocations will be changed in the blink of an eye.
I'm not saying this is a good thing, or a bad thing. It just is.
-ccm
Too much Law; not enough Order.
I'm glad they cut the budget for doing the study on the effects of a Cat 5 hurricane. There's no need for a study now! Just look at the news to see what hurricanes would do to NO.
A perfect example of the sad, sad society that we are presented with today. I mean, those cops had a perfectly good excuse to shoot twenty niggers, and let it slip out of their fingers! Totally inexcusible.
The biggest weakness of the evacuation system is that it only worked if you had a car. This left poor people, elderly, and tourists trapped. The airlines cancelled flights too early, and buses weren't used for evacuation.
Actually, before Katrina turned to the east to hit Gulfport, the estimate was 4 months.
If you leave, you cannot return, they won't let you back until the place is "safe". And with people there to loot, what would you return to after 4 months, or 1?
I think many people stayed to guard their houses. I know many people said they stayed in places (not necessarily their homes) that weren't touched by Camille. Except this turned out to be worse, at least in Mississippi and Alabama.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Well what you say about humor has scientific theories to back it up, however, the problem is that few if any of these jokes on Slashdot are even remotely funny.
Quality humor involves tact and timing and frankly many of these jokes have neither.
Simply put, people who make anonymous jokes about people who would not even possibly laugh at the jokes themselves are really just cowards looking for attention.
If they had any balls at all in thinking that their jokes are actually funny, they would tell their jokes in a public square where they could be stoned to death if by some chance people don't find jokes about innocent, suffering, and helpless people to be funny at all.
People laugh at jokes about people who actually deserve to be laughed at (e.g. Michael Jackson), but trying to find jokes about victims from a once in a 500 year disaster that everyone can laugh at is a pretty hard thing to do.
So far, maybe one joke in this thread was even halfway decent, and the rest are just from trolls who couldn't be funny if their life depended on it.
A Free Market has a solution for everything.
In the case of food shortages, the Free Market regulates the demand.
i.e. people die
Now, I'm a believer in a capitalistic system, and I think a market economy has many good things to be said for it. But it needs to be held on a leash.
You're objecting to feelings, not words. How do you know those who make the jokes aren't feeling empathy? You're pretty presumptive to say you know what others are feeling.
As to letting others live their lives, you specifically took time out to lecture people on what they should (more accurately shouldn't) do. To me, that's just unwarranted and unnecessary. Let these people be, you're sure not going to make them have any respect they don't already have by telling them how wrong they are.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
"But it was like 9/11 when many people had been trying to warn the public for years and everyone turned a deaf ear."
Given the similarities to 9/11 (a horrible but predictible tragedy that people wanted to ignore until it hit), I wonder what the aftermath will be. Of course, the nation will lend a hand, we will resolve to face the aftermath with courage, and we will rebuild. But what next? Perhaps people will cry that the severity of recent hurricanes is due to globaal warming, due in part to fossil fuels, due in part to iranian oil, and this will be justification for another war? Perhaps people will question the nature of god, some declaring war on god while others decry New Orleans as a den of sin and vice?
Recent tragedy has been channeled into vengence, and I fear where this might lead. Somehow, someone will take the blame. At least life is strangely amusing and highly televised.
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/artic le_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313
Over the next 10 years, the Army Corps of Engineers, tasked with carrying out SELA, spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building pumping stations, with $50 million in local aid. But at least $250 million in crucial projects remained, even as hurricane activity in the Atlantic Basin increased dramatically and the levees surrounding New Orleans continued to subside.
Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars.
Newhouse News Service, in an article posted late Tuesday night at The Times-Picayune web site, reported: "No one can say they didn't see it coming....Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious questions are being asked about the lack of preparation."
In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to a Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness.
"I don't think anyone would take issue with it as long as he kept up the anti-American rhetoric."
:-(
Frankly, this should concern us. How is it that someone can gain popularity by saying they hate America?
Sigh... I remember when they used to cheer for our President when he went on trips to foreign nations. Sad that was only 5 years ago now.
Slashdotters sure are a rude and discompassionate group of people.
This is required viewing for all people of prayer.
Yes, because those of us who don't pray wouldn't have the moral capacity to care. Never an opportunity lost to show off that cross on your sleeve, huh?
"New orlinz" more like "new antlantis", am I right?
Thank you, Canada. If anyone was going to help us, I figured that Canada would be the country to offer first. :-)
If Canadians or anyone else with a heart wishes to contribute to a real relief fund, follow the link....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9115520/
scroll mid way down for list of links
My community, (Lake Charles - 250mi/400km west of N.O.) has taken on 1,700+ refugees and more will arrive tomorrow. This doesn't count those who are in lodging. The story is the same all over the Southeast.
Nearly 1 million people in Metro New Orleans alone just lost everything they own including their means of income. New Orleans will probably not be able to take them back for two months. Most of their homes will even then still be destroyed.
On behalf of my fellow Louisianians, one great big thank you.
Excuse me, but thanks to modern communications technology, the President can easily contact anyone in the world from anywhere in the world, which means he can have what amounts to a full function White House anywhere he goes. During President Bush's stay at his ranch near Crawford, TX, I'm sure the White House Communications Office moved in a full communications suite that can do everything from calling ordinary people on landline links to full command of the military in event of nuclear attack. Besides, I'm sure that they parked both Air Force One (VC-25A) and the National Airborne Operations Center (E-4B) planes as close to Crawford, TX as possible for use for any contingency.
Hope this guy didn't burn any bridges when he left Caltech...
Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
What are they going to do with the water inside the city?
It is filled with chemicals, gas, corpses, disease, you name it.. Dumping it into the lake or into the ocean right on down the Mississippi doesn't sound like a great idea but what else are they going to do with it?
Filtering it would take WAY too long and cost too much money. It looks to me that in this case they are going to have to make a choice between money, lives, the city and the environment.
Libertas in infinitum
Everything over "a few" billion dollars will be paid by some little-known, usually offshore companies in a business called "reinsurance". They're kind of like wholesalers for insurance coverage. The insurance companies you know and (cough) love pay premiums to reinsurance firms for excess loss coverage.
Reinsurers got hurt by Hurricane Andrew. In betweeen rare disasters they bring in oceans of money.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michoud_Assembly_Faci lity
Any status about how the plant where the shuttle external fuel tanks are made?
OK, what has happened is unfortunate, nasty and tragic. However, a few things spring to mind...
1. Yes, humour is how we cope. I'm English and we have plenty of London bomb jokes already. This doesn't mean I find the idea of bombs going off or people being flooded out of their homes remotely funny, it's just a coping mechamisn. If you really look at what's going on in the world, humour's the only way to stay sane.
2. Think about the people in the Superdome without air conditioning? Please. Think about the majority of people on the planet who have never had air conditioning, reliable clean water, cheap power and fuel. Given disasters like this and worse happen all the time, they are lucky to have the resources of the richest country of the world to help them. A few days or weeks of inconvenience is all they have, then the vast majority will be right back to their normal fat western lifestyle.
3. This happens in the US, and it's our (in England) top news story. WHY? Much worse disaters happen all the time in India, China, Africa, South America, and they get far less of a mention. Makes me sick. I'm not anti-American as such, but our media seem to have a bit of a fixation the general population here don't share.
Anyway to wrap up, nasty, horrible, tragic, yes. But why, given a whole ocntinent to play with, build cities below sea level next to huge rivers and oceans? Same reason to build SF and LA on the San Andreas fault, I suppose. They had days of warning, and live in weak wooden homes close to sea level in a known hurrican-prone area. They are not starving to death like many thousands did in Africa on the same day.
What happened? Did the dykes all pull their fingers out of the real dikes at the same time and cause flooding?
New Orleans is a cesspool of scum, filth, disease, and rotting corpses....then the hurricane blew in. ;-)
(sorry, I couldn't resist..Lord I apologize, please forgive me and be with the starving pygmies down in New Guniea)
Libertas in infinitum
jsakjsdaksad pink floyd rules
Most people live where they are born, probably like you. They are also too poor to drop everything and move to another place where there might not be some kind of disaster, which there are very few in the U.S.
>the Mississippii River is held back by huge dikes to prevent it from finding a new route to the sea.
The history of this is fascinating and McPhee's book discusses it at length. The scientists he interviewed told him that the Mississippi should already have changed course into a new channel, one which has a city in its course.
http://www.kimclement.com/downloads/72205KimClemen t.mp3
t m
http://www.kimclement.com/words/2005/July222005.h
Text:
July 22, 2005- Houston, TX
Servants of God:
Enough of past curses reminding you of yesterday's failures. Enough of New Orleans and its treachery. Enough of stealing the Ark of the Covenant from my people just because you had those surrounding you that had no faith. Caleb said we are able to take this land. Joshua said we are able to take this land. But ten voices arose against the Lord God. And they would stone my servant Moses and say let us stone them and raise up another leader so that we may go back to Egypt. Would you go back to your dung? Would you go back to your vomit?
O New Orleans God speaks to you from Houston tonight and says enough of this! For a judgment is coming says the Spirit of the Lord, and I will take the men that have stood in faith, raise them above the flood that shall destroy those that constantly bicker and stand against my servant Moses, or my servant Bilbo. I want you to understand there are great men in New Orleans that have faith but you have been set aside not to lose but to win. Enough of this! For I will take the curses and the bodies will even rise and they will come forth on the water, but I will keep you and the stench of death will only last a few days. And then what I promised two years ago will come to pass for August, September and October of this year I made a promise it would happen, and God said be strengthened now, be strengthened now for enough is enough says the Lord.
You said "damn city" ha ha ha!
Libertas in infinitum
Abandon the city? Don't rebuild? Don't drain it?
;-(
Is it just me or does this sound like the movie 'Escape from L.A."
Libertas in infinitum
Well, nothing. A flooded city now and then is a small price to pay for large corporations to continue polution. And think about the profits companies will be able to make rebuilding the city. If this isn't good for economy, I dont know what is!!!
Ha, those jerks in Kyoto. Global warming and climate changes my ass!!!! We'll show them now!
Learn to spell.
The UK news says that Merkans are calling Katrina and its aftermath "Our Tsunami". Well.... a) not only is the death toll vast differently but also b) at least the US had a warning. If crazy people wanted to risk it, thats their own problem.
Hate to break it to ya there, but good luck proving that this was caused by global warming due to some act of man.
If you honestly believe that man helped cause this then you need to go back to 5th grade science and re-examine the scientific method.
I am not saying it isn't possible, but it isn't proven fact either so please don't go touting it like it is.
Libertas in infinitum
I think we should rename it to 'Freedom Quarter'.
We all know that the Ancients collonized the Earth and the Go'uald used humans as slaves all over the Galaxy. Now that the Go'uald are no more, let's finally get the Goverments to admit to the Stargate program, start building Z.P.M.s (zero-point modules) and create city sized shields like they have on Atlantis in the Pegasus galaxy. Those things can survive the pressure of the bottom of the ocean for 10,000 years, gigantic hurricanes, nuclear blasts and sustained fire from multiple enemy star ship's energy weapons. They're pretty invulnerable.
Come on Government leaders! You could prevent almost every future natural disaster!!
P.S. If we start terraforming Mars and colonizing it now we could have a second livable planet within around 100 years (heat-wise not oxygen wise)
Okay, New Orleans was built at sea level, only to subside under the weight of the built environment. Why, then, didn't anyone take action to raise the city back up before the inevitable occurred? The idea isn't as crazy as it sounds. Chicago did exactly that between 1850 and 1880--raise its street level by up to 14 feet with vaulted roads and sidewalks, and jack up all of its buildings, inch by inch, to match. A building's occupants often weren't even aware it was being raised until they left work in the evening.
So how come wasn't this done in New Orleans? Lack of funds? Engineering problems? Structural instability?
You're right, of course. I'm truly liberal in my beliefs about taxation - I believe that the wealthier you are, the more you should be taxed. And not just more money, but a higher percentage of your money. And I have no problem with my tax money going to help those who live in states that don't have the same opportunities that are all around me in California.
A more interesting statistic would compare a state's federal tax burden to the state's gdp (or whatever it's called).
To sum up what we've learnt over the past few thousand years :
1)Don't build houses on sand foundations (credit to the Christians for this usefull observation)
2)Don't build houses in hurricane zones (people from Florida have lots of trouble grasping the simple concept of "Hurricane Alley" and why not to live there)
3)Don't build your house below sea level - this might seem obvious at first, and we really ought to have learnt our lesson from the Dutch, but I guess people from New Orleans are REALLY slow learners.
Actually, Chicago used to be quite prone to flooding from Lake Michigan, which was only a couple feet below street level. The city's roads and streets were impassable every winter because they would freeze over, and impassable every spring because the rain would turn them to mud. Unlike New Orleans, however, Chicago made the decision to raise its street level by up to 14 feet, thus lifting itself out of the muck and greatly reducing the city's susceptibility to flooding. Not only were streets and sidewalks rebuilt on vaulted arches, but entire buildings were also lifted from their foundations by mechanical jacks, even as people within them went about their business as usual. This was done back in the mid-19th century.
Why New Orleans never followed Chicago's lead is something I'd like to know.
What do you expect? The typical slashdork only cares about being able to pirate music for their ipod. Terribly selfish bunch.
First of all, my best wishes go for those affected by Karina.
-
You all are blaming some fund-cuttings for the major havoc. But you all ignore the cause of the Hurricane:
climate change
global warming
Look at all the wierd things nature is sending us.
But forget it, cheap SUV are more important than Kyoto.
Some people deal with tragedy by laughing at it and making jokes. Maybe you don't find that appropriate, but some people don't see crying as an appropriate response either. Regardless, intolerance won't help anything.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
It was pretty old anyway so it was time to update the name.
Newer Orleans
Orleans Vista
New Orleans 2.0
www.beyond7.com www.staplebenchcomputers.com
Missouri is on a major geological fault line, the New Madrid Fault. It produced the strongest earthquake recorded in the continental US.
Check out these pictures:
h otos_tc_afp/050830194101_mzffh1jl_photo1
9 13/w083049ajpg
"Two residents wade through chest-deep water after finding bread and soda from a local grocery store in New Orleans, Louisiana."
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/p
"A young man walks through chest deep flood water after looting a grocery store in New Orleans on Tuesday. (AP/Dave Martin)"
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/1
So when it's a young black man it's called looting, but when it's a white woman it's called 'finding'?
As someone that is donating hundreds of dollars under a company donation matching program to the Ced Cross, my opinions:
1. I'm constantly amazed at the number of people that are oblivious to what is going on around them. I've talked with people today that had no idea anything had even happened here in NYC, so how many of those down in New Orleans didn't know that anything was happening before the winds picked up?
2. I'm amazed at how oblivious people are to the potential risks of natural disasters are around them, and know how to deal with them.
3. I'm amazed at how people that should know the risks avoid facing them and when called to evacuate, don't do so.
4. I'm amazed at how a place like New Orleans can only have provisions for a cat 3 hurricane, when they have been nearly hit by worse.
5. I'm amazed at the fact (pending) that the government will allow New Orleans to be rebuilt once they get the water under control.
Why not wait to see the full impact of this disaster before you reflexively respond with sarcasm and wit? Please.
Mostly because the all-night bars in New Orleans were open, and had signs to the effect of: "We won't die sober!!!". The city itself is a dark, grim humour, and...yeah, something insightful here. There's plenty of time in the day for reverence. Here, we come to laugh. (c'mon, it's Slashdot. Nothing is reverent or serious.)
The Dutch (i am one) have been best in dyke building and flood control for centuries. The problem is, we are too good in it. Like in Louisiana, with the pumping of the water, we also suck the land down.
The major mistake of the Dutch was the reclamation of land below the average sealevel. Because we became very good at pumping, we dropped the old technique of reclaiming land by accelerated sinking of silt http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landgewinnung. Instead we made a ring-dyke and pumped the water away. With the sea rising and the land sinking, it's getting harder and harder to keep those places dry, and the dangers of a flood are increasing.
The Germans on the coast of Ostfriesland and Schleswig-Holstein didn't drop the old way of land reclamation; even the polders of the 20th century are made by accelerated sinking of silt. Almost all of them are kept dry by "Sielen", nothing but big one-way valves in the dyke. They open at low tide, the water in the polder flows away and when the tide rises, it closes the valves again. To the contrary, almost all Dutch polders need pumps.
In former centuries, the Germans often hired Dutch engineers for their dykes. But nowadays, i think the German are ahead of us, just because they never became impatient and stuck with accelerated sinking of silt.
In Nordfriesland, the westcoast of Schleswig-Holstein, you can find so called "Halligen" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallig. These are small islands without a dyke or dunes. Houses are built on terps. When a stormflood hits the island, it is completely flooded except for the terps with the houses.
Those floods do some damage to the island, but also bring on new silt. These islands are in a dynamic equilibrium of damage from floods and (accelerated) sinking of silt. It was that way because the people couldn't afford a dyke, nowadays it's because of landscape conservation (you should see it, it's really beautiful!) but in the future it might prove to be the way to go for sustainable preservation of the lowlands.
Trust me, I work for the government.
What williamyf conveniently ignored, was the fact that Chavez, in 1999 actually accepted USA aid, machinery and engineers; but USA also insisted in deploying US Marines, something unacceptable for us.
Our offer to the United States is sincere. I don't know what George W. Bush will do, or not, but its not an offer to the USA central government, its an offer for the people, the organizations helping people, local governments, religious groups, etc.
This type of aid has been offered to the countries in the Caribbean who had been suffering the past hurricanes. We have helped with supplies and rebuilding in Jamaica, Cuba, Grenada, Haiti, etc. We also sent people to Sri Lanka and India after the tsunami, along with monetary donations.
Let me return you the favor: if you ever come to Venezuela, look me up and i would gladly show you around, so you can see the truth by yourself.
Let me clarify that we in Venezuela have no problem with the people of the United States. What we have issues with, is with the current administration, because they have actively worked against our country. It is not a personal matter either, if Bush stopped attempting to force his vision of what a country should be, and started respecting our sovereignty, i'm sure normal relationships with the administration would be restored. As it is right now, they don't even accept talking with our ambassador in Washington D.C., despite permanent attempts and support from Democrats and Republicans in the US congress.
If you are interested in knowing more about Venezuela, let me suggest these links:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/
http://www.vheadline.com/
Artix
Your Linux, your init.
I am stupified at the lackluster, apathetic, laconic, and ineloquent issuances of the man who may soon become the first mayor of a lake in history.
The nearly perfect vacuum where forceful, positive, and competent leadership in this time of ultimate crisis is direly needed is simply beyond expression--without the use of expletives too extreme to spell.
With all the dire warnings of just precisely such a catastrophic event, where the hell was realistic preparation? When even complete laymen were practically screaming in hurricane-related forums for New Orleans to be evacuated, when every computer model had New Orleans dead center in the crosshairs of a Cat 5 hurricane ambling across the Gulf, unwaveringly on course, where was the ordered timely evacuation?
How could there not be reserved for instant action all the necessary resources to effectively deal with the one thing that absolutely could not be permitted to go unhandled in any remotely similar situation: a levee break? And now he gets on television and complains that "the helicopter didn't show up"? His "reason": Oh, he says "too many chiefs calling the shots." Here's a news bulletin, Mayor Neptune: you're the chief who should have called the shots long, long, long before the disaster was flooding over your people.
Since his evacuation order came so late in the game, he then had to lead thousands of people into a vulnerable giant sardine can, like the Pied Piper--only to abandon them and go stay comfortably at the Hyatt.
And what does Senator Vitter say about Mayor Neptune Nagin? "Mayor Nagin's calm and control and command of the facts showed me that we have one of the best leaders in the country right here." And Senator Vitter's complete oblivion to all facts shows me that we have one of the biggest idiots in the country occupying a Senate seat. But as Mark Twain said: "I repeat myself."
Where is any effective preparation at all for this unprecedented, though repeatedly predicted, catastrophe? This is no Pompeii, where the idiocy was limited to building in the shadow of a volcano; this is a disaster for which actual effective preparedness could have produced a vastly different outcome. In fact, though later information may mitigate this, the prevailing information is that the levee break was pouring countless gallons of water into the bowl of New Orleans before Mayor Neptune Nagin even woke up to the fact. How's that for "control and command of the facts," Senator Vitter? I don't know where Mayor Neptune had his finger, but it certainly wasn't in the dike.
In any crisis, it's easy, and often reactionary, to point fingers of blame. Sometimes it's simply a vent of frustration and helplessness, something no doubt all of us feel in greater or lesser degrees. But there also is accountability for trusts placed in public officials. When they fail, their failures are real. When their failures result in untold mayhem and destruction to property and lives, they are accountable. This man has failed miserably to prepare. And, in the face of the consequences of his own failed preparation, he has not only failed to effectively lead, inspire, and devise workable solutions, he has taken to whining publically about "too many chiefs."
No, Mayor Neptune, the problem is one too few chiefs. The rest are having to take up your slack.
I just thought today, that its maybe cheaper just to rebuild new orleans on a relocated site a little further inward of the area, and let the ruins be what they are - a warning, and maybe a new tourism center to learn what it means to live with a more and more dynamic climate
I wonder if Mr Bush will now start thinking if global warming is still not a problem. Maybe at least the citizens of New Orleans or the other affected regions will now begin to think if 5.0-V8-engines with a need of 15litre/100km are the future or even a good choice for the present.
I think mother earth just begins to show us how she likes to be changed by humans.
Well, I heard that some nations are willing to return some of the bombs US army threw on their territory.
Vietnam is willing to donate some napalm canisters and Japan sends a miniature capsule with a few nuclei of very rare and strongly radioactive substance.
Chile is ready to suply vast lenghts of rusty prison chains to pull things out of water.
More importantly, all these ethusiastic supporters will send plenty of coffins!
... and what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?
... rings a bell?
Well, let's start with number one:
Have that Airhead that is in charge over there at your place finally sign the Kyoto protocol and reduce greenhouse reason nummero uno, which is CO2. I'd like to add that the US has the highest per capita output of CO2. Y'know, global warming, change of climate, stronger storms and all that
On goes it with
Don't build below sea level. Maybe? No?
Then:
Don't build with egg-carton but with real bricks.
I could go on, but those are the most pressing.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Indeed... have you seen this?
(Summary: News clipping showing a black man pulling food through the water, captioned 'A young man wades through chest deep flood water after looting a grocery store...'; and another clipping showing two white people pulling food through the water, captioned 'Two residents wade through chest deep flood water after finding bread and soda from a local grocery store...')
Where public safety is contracted out to the lowest bidder.
Perhaps when coastal population centers occur blow sea level, safety measures should be over-engineered?
I'd hope that Underwatertown, Florida with an average hight of 20 feet below sea-level and a population over 500,000 located on the beach with a large tourism industry, would look at the worst case scenario and then be
prepared for something twice as bad
I'd want levees that could handle 50 feet of storm surge and 220 knot sustained winds without breaking a sweat.
I'd want independantly powered (or at least secure underground lines) forced drainage.
I'd want a magical pony that would drink all the water in the case that one of the levees broke.
I'd also not put a prison in a place where the inmates would be evacuated and held on an on-ramp
--- As to make my comment seem, by comparison, more intelegent... doodie doodie doodie poop poop poop!
...and the water will flow out automagically. Puts those old nukes to good use.
At least this bumps Cincinnati up one slot in Forbe's best city for singles list.
And it seems to have the benefit of working properly too.
an idiotic comment gets an interesting mod?
Why the fuck do I read online forums?
They had ample warning this time, it's just that many chose to ignore it and stay. The loss of lives is most likely going to be in the hundreds if not thousands by the time this is all played out.
A new warning system would have changed nothing about this current event.
Learn to swim!
I'll see you down in Arkansas Bay.
That was the GP point. GWB decided to start a war. That has to be paid for (otherwise you are unamerican and against "our brave boys" - bad mojo). Therefore congress has to cut the budget because of a decision they could not stop. A decision that shrub made.
Lets review.
Before Bush: Internet boom, high-tech in high gear, I loved my life.
Since: World Trade Center turned to a pile of smoking rubble by person who just hates US, Iraq war got by lying, won itself but peace lost, several thousand dead as a result, oil prices go to Near European price levels, oil reserves depleted, then economy struck by the loss of a major city.
Somebody tell me who let George in?
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?
Listen to the Earth and respect it?
Stop spewing climate changing gasses into the atmosphere?
The few pieces that are poking out of the wet sewage that is left of where it stood are going to be like rotted teeth long before any appreciable amount of rebuilding can happen.
I'd dedicate the ruins to hubris and let ecotourists have their way in there, in about 50 years.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Maybe the parent poster is wise-cracking, but what he's he's saying is the logical next step in this little drama.
What? You think that the 24/7 coverage on Fox News about how the eviiil liberals are "destroying Amerikuh" isn't having an affect on the intented audience?
You think the newscasters chuckling about "college frat pranks" when speaking dismissively about ongoing torture and murder in Iraqi prisons isn't setting the tone for what is to come?
You think that fining Janet Jackson for showing a boob, while giving Pat Robertson a free pass while he calls for the assasination of a foreign head of state (a felony), isn't setting the tone for what is to come?
It's no joke.
if only new orleans had more dykes!
Is this tech news?
I don't think so. Besides, giving a forum to most of the people that have commented on here doesn't seem like a good idea! I mean... Aid = Communist!! What planet are you on? Communism = a bad word? Eh? Does the average American know what communism is? Are they able to distiguish between the principles of communism, the principles of socialism and the practice of either?
And as for all the bullshit US politics - it has sod all to do with politics left or right (not that there is a significant distinction between the two in US politics right now).
It seems like some of the population of the US is drifting further and further away from sense! Come on.... leave politics out of
Adam Smith spoke about what the world would is like, when people ignore the common weal in order to exclusively persue short-term personal gain:
"Life, in a state of nature, is nasty, brutish, and short."
It's funny how many people who identify themselves as "Capitalists", would be completely appaled at the statements he made, if they actually bothered to read Adam Smith's books.
Very nice post. Man, to be a real estate agent in Baton Rouge in 6-12 months time...
Don't worry it won't. Now the drilling and refineries can really proceed. No more environmentalists and NIMBY advocates.
Its going to become a waste land built on top of a swap (and a few graves) and nobody'll complain. It'll be like Alaska would have been except for the environmentalists.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Why is it that people insist on building, rebuilding, and rebuilding again in areas where they are almost certain to get knocked down after a sufficiently long (yet still human-scale) length of time? Let's build on this unstable clay hillside. Sure, people who've built here before have repeatedly died due to mudslides, but... Let's build in this hurricane corridor. Sure, the only reason there is space now is that the previous houses got tossed into some nearby ocean, but... Darn, our city got shaken to pieces in an earthquake. Let's invest in rebuilding everything in the exact same region. Yeah, there'll be another quake, and worse, but... Aw heck, this river system flooded again. Well, hundredth time's the charm, right? Let's build back in the floodplain. Sure, it might make sense not to do the same thing again, but... What is this, a mass response to global overpopulation? "Hey, if we keep trying to live in places like this, eventually the population may go down!" And if so, why do folks in these regions keep producing brand-new children at the same time?
We now know Katrina creates New New Orleans in 2005, guess what will make NNY before Y3K?
and where would they stay during the hurricane?
as long as you keep your top on.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Smart people knew to get out sooner and did. Personally, I believe the mayor's call to evacuate the city of New Orleans on Sunday morning was too late. Saturday afternoon or evening at the latest would have given folks an extra day or half-day to get moving.
The US ratifying the Kyoto protocol would be a good start. Hopefully this disaster will provide incentive (as if that should be needed) for the US to finally join the rest of the world in really trying to combat this problem.
The main thing here has to be point 2.a, don't build your houses of wood. Out of every country I have been in, the US seems to have the biggest proportion of wood-builds.
The north of scotland regularly gets winds of 120mph (ok, it aint 160-200 but its still alot, and it is still only considered a gale here), but you will be hard pressed to find a building made of wood. While yes, people get hurt sometimes, it is mostly because of falling debris (trees, etc).
As for the water, it seems flooding is getting more and more common around the globe. Over in the uk insurance is skyrocketing for areas near to rivers beacuse of the increased risk. I'm sure I heard there was a website with 'danger areas' for potential homebuyers to avoid because of the huge insurance costs.
That's what Bush is thinking right now, you can bet the farm on it.
Nothing like a natural disaster of epic proportions to finally take the headlines away from the disaster of epic proportions of his own making over in Iraq, and the still-decreasing public approval of the way he's handling things.
I love how he even ended his vacation two whole days early (how magnanimous of him!) to rush back to Washington to "oversee the recovery and relief effort." No, George. We all know that if the media had to pass Cindy Sheehan's camp on their way to cover your hurricane-related press conferences, they might ask a question or two about her. Now with you back in Washington, they'll just forget all about her.
Too bad we had to throw all that taxpayer money into the black hole that is Iraq. Otherwise maybe New Orleans could have afforded preparations for protecting the city from a severe hurricane better than just hoping that one would never hit.
But what do I know? I'm from one of the blue states, where we merely try not to build a major city on below sea-level land that's surrounded by bodies of water.
I'm too lazy to search, but I believe the Superdome was built such that it's weight was spread across a wide enough stretch of land to distribute its load and prevent it from sinking. At least from sinking all at once. In fact, it and the city of New Orleans are built on timber piles. Wow.
you might not like it, but they do have a point...
there's a truly gigantic floating set of metal arms, which are rotated into place and then sunk, to protect the mouth of the Rotterdam waterway.
Each of those arms is as big as the Eiffel Tower. And since the arms are robotic, we have a robot that's bigger that the Eiffel Tower.
mcv.
Helps cope with difficulties.
Attended a friend's wedding in New Orleans about five years ago. The night before the wedding, we went out on the town. A small thundershower popped up and dumped a fair bit of rain on us. It wasn't fifteen minutes from the time the rain fell before the water was up to our calves. Didn't rain much longer than twenty or thirty minutes either. Can't imagine what it is like with hurricanes bearing down.
You said it yourself - the North Sea doesn't have 140+ mph sustained winds for 8-12 hours. The sheer power of the waves in weather like that means the surge doesn't have to be higher than the dike/levee to break through; instead, the ocean just takes the brute-force approach and pounds it to pieces.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
To sum up what you cheap "penny wise, pound foolish" (as the Brits state so nicely) folks still need to learn:
1) You can build houses on sand foundations. Heck, sand is considered "firm" and "stable" over here. We're building 150m (492ft) high-rises on a peat bog. (Granted, all the extra engineering will cost ya)
2) Your love for "cardboard 'n matchstick" houses are a bit misplaced in some areas. Build somthing more "climate proof" instead! (And while you're at it, upgrade the utilities to that same weatherproof level) (Granted, it will cost ya)
3) There's not much wrong with livin' below sea level, except that there's absolutely no room for complacency. That's the real Dutch lesson to be learned: As soon as complacency creeps in, you don't need to ask "whether", but rather ask "when" the flood comes! (Granted, being vigilant will cost ya)
So why are there still people willingly living in 'risky' areas? Well, maybe, just maybe there are just too many strategic and economic advantages to certain locations... And that you'll lose them, if you move them... Or something...
It all boils down to paying for all "local disadvantages" up front or paying the ultimate price afterwards.
Just my (heavily biased) EUR 0.02 (typing this from a steel and concrete monolith, built on a 18m (59ft) deep foundation @ 6.4m (21ft) below sea level)
First of all, being a coastal city isn't really the safest situation in the tropics, especially storm-rich areas such as theirs. I've lived in the tropics long enough to have figured out that much. Either you take extra precautions, or you live with the risk. Everything else pretty much stems from that. Being below sea-level in an area that is going to get storm surges is just plain silly. Even if you invest in the biggest and best dykes in the world, there is going to come a time when a) the biggest and worst storm *still* manages to push the waves over it, or b) you get flooded from the inside by torrential rains that have nowhere to go. And aren't going to go anywhere untill they evaporate or are removed forcibly, or c) you get flooded by rivers or miscelaneous other sources. After all that, they make matters worse by building on a flood plain. A silt flood plain, even. Nature's built her world to take these sorts of things, and in the watery world that frequently involves having large plains ecosystems that are designed to be flooded on a regular basis. Removing these, as well as straightening and cleaning out rivers results in much higher and faster water flows downstream, and increases the likelyhood of major flooding elsewhere. And the fact that, somehow or another, flood plains managed to flood now and then despite all of our efforts, no getting around that. Like it happened to us up here, precautions might make it less frequent, but that also usually means that when flooding does happen, it tends to end up being worst-case scenarios. Lastly, building on silt is just asking for trouble. Silt settles, silt is most deffinitly going to leak, and in the odd chance of an earthquake, silt tends to turn into quicksand and/or soup. Oh, and someone sugested simply building overtop in order to keep everything above sea level, which was promptly denigrated. Isn't there another major city that did that? Somewhere in the Mexico/South America areas, although I forget exactly which one. And as far as that goes, there's always venice. Let the ocean in, (but keep the dykes as breakwaters to keep the waves out) and build all the buildings taller to accomodate having the lower levels flooded. Use the negative as a positive atraction. Replace everyone's cars with boats. You can have just as many traffic jams and speed just as much with boats as with cars, although you tend to have fewer fires when you get into accidents.
Z
Paypal a $1 bill to the nearest garter. Think of the strippers!
Don't bother trying to fix it. You're fighting a losing battle. Same goes with the Atlantic coast beaches.
I have two words for you: PRIVATE FUNDING.
You want to live below sea level in a hurricane zone? Fine by me, but don't ask me to bail you out. Want to build a million dollar house at the beach? Fine, but don't ask me to spend billions of dollars to rebuild the beach for you.
It all goes back to foolish people doing foolish things. If it were me, I'd deny insurance claims to anyone wanting to rebuild, and I'd require that anyone rebuilding MUST place their first floor above sea level on a flood-resistant foudnation which can withstand 145mph winds.
What? That sounds too extreme? Guess what, dumbshit, THAT'S THE THE REQUIREMENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL (i.e. US) BUILDING CODE!* They rebuild all these historic strucutres without these requirements because they've been "grandfathered". They shouldn't be rebuilt.
*I happen to be a strucutral engineer, and have the building code next to me. I design flood foundations. I design for hurricane winds. I happen to know that most builders and building officials outside of Florida wouldn't know proper high-wind construction if it fell on them. And as for the 145mph winds...well, grab a copy of ASCE 7-02 "Minimum Design Loads for Buildings and Other Structures". Page 37. The 140MPH contour happens to pass right over Lake Ponchitrain. The next contour, which covers the entire coastal area is 150MPH. In fact, the entire coast from Houma, LA through MS and AL all the way to the FL border is a 150MPH zone. If all the buildings were up to code, there wouldn't have been anything but extremely isolated structural damage. But you don't listen. So you die.
I'd like my 7mil in cash, if you wouldn't mind.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
You ask what can be done? Obvious.
Hurricanes take their power from the ever warming oceans. US consumers and industry are using ever more energy, speading up global warming like no other nation on earth, causing hurricanes like that. Europe's CO2 output per head has been reduced by more than 18% while in the same period of time US CO2 output has surged.
The second problem is that people tend to be stupid where they put buildings and property in general. Nobody would be THAT stupid and build a house inside the crater of an active volcano but people are not afraid to build ever closer to the water or right inside of it. The denser they build the heavier the damage in case of hurricanes or other natural disasters. The second problem is HOW people build in the US. Start using bricks instead of wood and how about digging those power cables in like any other civilized nation on earth does instead of having them dangle in your face when a storm pushes everything to the ground?!
My pity for those affected by the damages left aside, I do not feel regret other than it were the wrong people who got killed by the storm. It should have struck the rich and wealthy, those with political and economic power. It serves the world's worst nation in terms of climate politics right that this happened and it will certainly happen again.
The Libertarian is typically one who is young enough to believe that he will be rich one day; young enough to want to be rich one day, to the detriment of those around him.
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
It gives me one more thing to blame Bushitler and Evil Global Corporations(TM) for!
Iraqnam is becoming so passe, you know?
Now I can jump up and down, shriek, and reach into my diaper and fling shit at the walls with a renewed vigor and passion!
Signed,
Your typical spoiled self-appointed know-it-all leftist brat
communism on one hand (or out on side of his mouth) and islamic militancy on the other hand (or out the other side of his mouth.)
An argument made by someone who believes that anybody who listens to him is too stupid to know what the words mean.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
I've been there. The city was really nice, and there are plenty of people with money living there. The poor folks you speak of are living in the shadow of the ones with jobs (like any large city). You know, the ones who run the refineries, casinos, hotels, tourist attractions, etc. When I took a riverboat ride, I saw thousands of homes over the levee that are clearly below water level. I couldn't help but think "what the hell are these people thinking?" These are brick homes with cars in the driveway, not shacks. There were plenty of people living there that would have no trouble moving someplace else, but instead they party on Bourbon Street having the towns favortie drink - the Hurricane. Get it? It's a joke because they know all too well what the situation is and what might happen some day.
Look at the place on maps.google.com and learn what you're talking about before you post crap like this.
Simple. Don't build your city below sea level.
"But the history!"
Get over it.
Graves have always been a problem for New Orleans area. They have always said that floods, and the fact that properties are built over swamp land, will cause these graves to uproot. Well if there was ever a flood to prove that theory it's now. I feel bad for those who are uninsured..and I am sure there are a lot of people in those areas.
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
Let that sink in for a minute -you're living in the place nature evolved scorpions and buzzards. You have so much agricultural potential too *rolls eyes*
One word: Stilts. If you build in a flood plane below sea level, elevate your structure. It doesn't add that much cost to the overall expense of a structure and can reduce the amount of damage due to a flood substantially. It seems that housing in America has become too uniform across the country, tending to lean towards the cheapest structures possible with no concern to enviornment and energy costs.
Why is anyone even planning to go back? Doesn't living there now seem to smack of idiocy?
It's like owning a mobile home in Florida or building a multi-million dollar home on the Outer Banks of North Carolina.
Direct away from face when opening.
....Don't build a city atop a sinking heap of river silt.
:P
Regards;
Build a floating megastructure on Lake Pontchartrain.
I've already created concept designs Neo Orleans
It'll take another 1700+ posts to break into the hall of fame. #10 has 3201. This story is bigger than 1/2 of those on the hall of fame. I guess it's where we put our priorities.
New Orleans was built by morons who thought they could outwit Mother Nature. The city's time finally came due. Why should my tax dollars, and the tax dollars of every citizen in this country, go towards rebuilding a city that shouldn't have been built? It's going to literally take trillions (not billions) of dollars to rebuild the city. And what happens when another major hurricane strikes? We do this all over again?? We've already done enough damage by building flood levies along the Miss. River and choked off VALUABLE wetlands that not only could have lessened the damage of this hurricane but also keep the Gulf of Mexico healthy. We've allowed silt from the Miss to pour into the Gulf, choking off valuable wildlife and natural resources instead of letting it replenish the wetlands. It's time to reverse that damage. The city should remain permanently evacuated, the remains of buildings and infrastructure torn down, the levy system removed and let nature take its course.
I'm sure there's enormous political pressure to rebuild this city, but like many places that learned their lesson after the great tsunami, there are just certain places that should NOT be rebuilt. And that includes the coastlines from Texas to Florida and beyond. It's time we stopped supporting frivolous and dangerous development. We have to pay each time a Florida beach is wiped out by a strom. Why? Because special interests demand it. It's time this maddness ends.
Even funnier is when one pretends to know Smith, then (mis)quotes Thomas Hobbes, from Leviathan: 'No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.'
old info, actual figures should be a lot higher today.
By one estimate, hurricane preparation can cost $670,000 per mile. The figure includes the expense of moving Navy warships out to sea, business and personal losses and the government's tab.
the longer you wait, the more precisely you know which areas to evacuate (=cheaper) ...
you might ask why property is still more valuable than lives, tho'
I hope I didn't brain my damage.
First: the French Quarter is above the level of the lake that is currently flooding the city. This is the oldest part of the city, and was built "high enough".
Can you blame people for building out the city beyond its original boundaries? No. Can you blame them for not having rigorous meteorological science available when the city was founded? No. Can you blame them for not having laser and satellite measuring available to determine that the city is sinking? No. Can you blame people for making decisions about where to live that are based on culture, where they were born, the culture into which they were born, and historical accident? No. You can't.
This *is* Slashdot, so I suppose you should be forgiven for thinking that old cities were founded and build like a game of Simcity. But of course they weren't.
We're all Americans, and we're all in this together. I don't live in a storm-prone area, but I'm quite confident that losing all your material posessions is a sufficient economic disincentive to make the point to those affected. Besides, insurance underwriters already figure location into their premiums. We don't need to make these people pay for being rescued off their rooftops.
If you're so upset about this wealth transfer, I invite you to take advantage of this great opportunity and move to a disaster-prone area. Nobody's stopping you -- you can cash in today! You might not add much to the immense cultural and historical contributions of cities like New Orleans or San Francisco, but I'm sure they'd be glad to have you anyway.
We've had huge hurricanes before. And we several hurricanes each year, any one of which could have done this damage with a direct hit. So, what is the effect of global warming on this storm? Did global warming aim the storm at New Orleans? That's a neat trick.
Actually, from what I've read, global warming would cause the polar ice caps to start melting, which would lower the temperature of the oceans. Lower ocean temperatures would yield fewer hurricanes. This is, in effect, the exact opposite.
SYS 64738
Seattle was rasied as well.
In many places the second floor simply became the first floor while the first floor ended up being underground.
There's even a small tourist business around giving tours of the accessible parts.
http://www.undergroundtour.com/
----- If communism is a system where the government owns business, what do you call a system where business owns govern
http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/005512.php
Since the vast majority of residents are already on the road it should be a simple matter to spend the 26 billion dollars to build new homes in Quebec rather than build up the city in a place which is only begging to be inundated again. Back in the 90's the Mississippi flooded several times up river from New Orleans. After the first couple of floods somebody decided that no payments of relief would be made to anyone unless they agreed to rebuild off the flood plane. The same should be applied to New Orleans. They can have the money to rebuild the city but do it some place else which will not be a disaster waiting to happen. Besides Quebec is a French wanna be place like New Orleans: they should get along like long lost brothers or at least like frenchmen from different regions.
Actually I'm an upper-middle-class moderate libertarian with a spoonful of environmental green, although my voter registration says Republican. I'm heavily in favor of smaller federal government, personal responsibility, and more state rights, unlike our current glorious leader.
-F.
Just cut me a check for a few hundred quadrillion dollars and I'll rebuild allllll those seaboard cities elsewhere.
Ditch the false dichotomy. tt's not as simple as "Live elsewhere or don't complain, stupids lololol"
I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
it's just that many chose to ignore it and stay
Im not sure this is an accurate statement. Many of the people that remained in New Orleans probably did not have the means, both financial and physical, to evacuate. Many of them probably don't own vehicles or couln't afford to buy 2 or 3 tanks of gas in a single day travel somewhere safer. So, they stayed behind and did they best they could.
Hooptie
"Heavens, it appears that my weewee has been stricken with rigor mortis!" -- Stewie Griffin
For example, I woke up this morning to discover that the price of gas in Toronto Canada shot up 20% because of this hurricane. Anybody want to bet that we will see the cost of everything from Oranges to gas go up in the coming weeks?
Sudden price increases like this cannot be good for the economy.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
I've only been to Nawlins (New Orleans) a few times. Once was to see the Pope, and another was for Mardi Gras. I was already an athiest by the time of the Pope. I guess it was just inertia from being a recovering Catholic that I decided to go. And there we were in our smurf suits (Air Force blues) telling each other bad Catholic jokes.
I did get to see the back of the Pontiff's head as his Popemobile drove by in the torrential rain. I think there were 250,000 people in that huge fucking field.
Mardi Gras was more fun. "Show us your tits!" 'nuf said.
I had my first Hurricane there. A wicked, wicked drink of fruit punch with rum. Why wicked? It only takes one to get you blottoed. It's probably the closest drink to a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster you'll ever find on Earth, that's legal.
Now it looks like New Orleans drank it's own hurricane. It'll be a decade before the city fully recovers, and it will be transformed. Perhaps the Dutch will lend us their engineering skills to help build a better levee system. New Orleans can be resurrected and should be. Alas, it won't be possible for many of it's citizens.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
"what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?"
1) First the whole shebang is below sea level.
2) It has this thing called a bayou, which for all intents is another word for swamp.
3) It exists in a flood plain
4) It is close to the Gulf of Mexico where there seem to be an awful lot of bad weather..
5) Is in an area coined 'Hurricane Alley'
How about this for an answer? Don't freakin' live there! Granted this is an over the top event, but I can hardly believe that people didn't see this eventally happening.
Its a lot like those idiots living in trailers in 'Tornado Alley' that 'can't beleve' its happend to them, who would have though that a tornado might blow away a trailer in that area, its like absurd.
That also goes for all your people living on the coast or even a major river. These things flood. That is what flood is. Add a storm, and you get big flood. Florida you know who you are. Like when I see on TV some guy were his house has been washed away, for like the THIRD time in a single year. Take a hint... (don't build there anymore). Certainly don't bitch about your insurance either.
Anyways thats the end of my little rant.
because when I read this
we can't design a 'break-proof' system. We either need a system that can't break, or...
my head starts to hurt.
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer." -Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
Google maps image of the arms (retracted)
I'm sure you're right and some had no means, but they ran quite a few interviews on various news outlets of people saying 'I survived Camile, I'll live through this one too.'
I'm a Transportation Engineer & I'm supposed to fly with the rest of our team tomorow to delineate the high water mark for the region.
I don't know where we'll be landing or where we're staying. We don't even know if it is safe law & orderwise.
And we're a bunch of lazy geeky engineers used to creature comforts; not a breed suitable to survive in those conditions....
weather.com also had a pre-disaster report that turns out to be quite accurate: http://www.weather.com/newscenter/specialreports/h urricanes/vulnerablecities/neworleans.html
Any true "person of prayer" would know that God took everyone for a reason. This doubter's just unhappy because he doesn't have faith in God's divine plan.
If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break,
If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break,
When The Levee Breaks I'll have no place to stay.
Mean old levee taught me to weep and moan,
Mean old levee taught me to weep and moan,
Got what it takes to make a mountain man leave his home,
Oh, well, oh, well, oh, well.
Don't it make you feel bad
When you're tryin' to find your way home,
You don't know which way to go?
If you're goin' down South
They got no work to do,
If you don't know about Chicago.
Cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do you no good,
Now, cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do you no good,
When the levee breaks, mama, you got to move.
All last night sat on the levee and moaned,
All last night sat on the levee and moaned,
Thinkin' about me baby and my happy home.
Going, going to Chicago... Going to Chicago... Sorry but I can't take you...
Going down... going down now... going down....
It is absolutely a sad, horrible, tragic thing that happened. And EVERYONE knew it would happen someday. It was a certainty. I visited New Orleans in '99, and I heard several times on a couple of different tours that the city was slowly sinking. The highest point in the entire city is just a few feet above sea-level. How they spend tons of money every year to pump the water off the land.
I am NOT saying they deserve it, but this was by no means a surprise. People knew this was coming, they just didn't think it would come now. Everyone was told "evacuate the city". Granted, some couldn't. But some said "We've seen this before, we aren't going anywhere".
Yeah, there will be asshats who will take a hard-line stance because they have no empathy or common decency. But I don't think ANYONE is surprised that this happened. It is an absolute tragedy. And when this is all over, if they try to rebuild New Orleans where it stands, they should have their asses kicked.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
It's not MULTIBILLION contracts to FRAUDULENT corporations like Haliburton, not the war in Iraq, not the war in Afganisthan, not the rising price of oil, not overspending and pork-filled bills for Big Companies With Big Lobbies, nooooo, it's fucking federal disaster aid.
Ridiculous. There's A LOT more stuff you need to cut before DISASTER AID you clueless idiot.
I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
Flood insurance is only offered by the federal government. Private insurance companies don't offer it, at least to anyone in a flood plain, because they have recognized that to do so is to subsidize this cycle of flooding/rebuilding/flooding/rebuilding ad nauseum.
I wish the government would figure this out too. The homeowners in the area with homeowner's insurance are covered for damage due to wind and wind-driven rain, just not flooding.
The problem with the first floor idea is that there are 3 story buildings with the roof just sticking out of the water. You'd have to add at least 3 or 4 stories of building to be sacrificed to flooding, at which point it makes more sense to raise the ground level to at least 10 feet above sea level.
He can mobilize the military and be a leader.
9/11 he was there within 15 hours, 8/29/05 8/29/05 he says he might show up by friday?
The point is he can mobilize people and make this a national priority. We can't afford the loss of 100 billion dollars of the economy, oil pipelines and such.
We rallied for war after 9/11, why the f can't we rally for piece, rally for safety, rally for those 1.5 million homeless pople across 5 states down there and work to make a difference for all?
Istanbul and Lisbon are two European examples of harbor cities bisected by fault zones. The whole Japanese coast is riddled with earthquake faults as well...
god that is awful
Perhaps a New New Orleans could be built on artificial islands and piers with canals replacing the streets. Smaller historic areas could be placed behind levees and dikes and would be easier to protect. Of course a riverboat wouldn't be as maneuverable or sexy as a gondola. Maybe James Cameron could film an underwater version of A Streetcar Named Desire.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
Well...This guy says it's not global warming.
He said in a Salon article: "When we looked at the historical record, we found that the frequency of storms globally hasn't really changed at all," Emanuel said. "It's about 90 per year, plus or minus 10. The frequency globally appears to be steady."
He's also arguing that over development in these areas is the culprit of so much destruction. I.e. There is more stuff that gets damaged.
The whole article:
Aug. 30, 2005 - Hurricane Katrina has turned New Orleans into "a wilderness," said one public health official, who begged evacuated residents not to return to the city for at least a week. Rife with poisonous water moccasins and fire ants, downed trees and power lines, without fresh drinking water, power, gas or sewage, the storm has made the battered and flooded city uninhabitable.
Katrina is just the latest in a rash of powerful hurricanes that have been pummeling the Atlantic in recent years, including a record-breaking 33 between 1995 and 1999. It's made many wonder if global warming is bringing the wrath of the planet down upon all our heads. Kerry Emanuel, a professor of atmospheric science at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who has studied historical records of hurricanes around the globe, said the answer is yes and no.
In a recent paper, "Increasing Destructiveness of Tropical Cyclones Over the Past 30 Years," published in the science journal Nature, Emanuel found that as sea temperatures rise, the duration and intensity of hurricanes are going up, too.
The reason for the correlation is pretty straightforward: "Hurricanes derive their energy from the evaporation of sea water," Emanuel explained in a phone interview. "When you evaporate water from the ocean you actually transfer heat from the ocean to the atmosphere. A similar effect happens when you come out of the shower in the morning. You feel cold because water is evaporating from your skin, and taking heat from your body. That heat energy doesn't disappear." Instead, it fuels the intensity of hurricanes.
So, as global warming increases, expect hurricanes to get stronger. However, that doesn't mean, as some perceive, that there are actually more of them lately. "When we looked at the historical record, we found that the frequency of storms globally hasn't really changed at all," Emanuel said. "It's about 90 per year, plus or minus 10. The frequency globally appears to be steady."
The recent hurricanes in the Atlantic, Emanuel explained, represent a natural fluctuation. Every 20 to 30 years, since records started being kept in the 19th century, there have been big shifts in the frequency of hurricanes in the Atlantic. "For example, in the 1940s and '50s, there were very busy years, whereas the 1970s and '80s were very quiet years," he said. "And we've had a big upswing in the Atlantic beginning in about 1995. That's all natural."
The reason violent Atlantic hurricanes like Katrina may strike people as unnatural, and cause them to blame the CO2 pouring out of their neighbors' Hummers, is not because of their frequency but their destruction to people and places.
"This natural fluctuation occurs in a social environment where there is a huge shift in demographic trends, and this makes a big difference in people's perception," Emanuel said. "In the 1940s and '50s, there were lots of hurricanes in Florida, but there weren't lots of people there. So now that we're having this upswing again, it's being perceived very differently" -- for the simple fact that there is a lot more stuff to be ruined.
Meteorologists performed admirably in alerting public officials to Katrina's rising destruction, allowing them to evacuate New Orleans and other Gulf Coast cities in plenty of time. But Emanuel said that other warnings by meteorologists have gone unheeded in past decades
Esta es una firma en Espanol.
> What's tragic is that this could have been
> prevented by not building up an area in which we
> knew this would happen.
What's tragic is all of the "Can we rebuild New Orleans? WILL we rebuild New Orleans? ABSOLUTELY!!!" bullshit I'm hearing from people already.
My god, your dead aren't even buried yet and already you're talking about restoring the exact same trap for some future generation?
Let me say this as clearly as possible... THE CITY IS B-E-L-O-W SEA LEVEL. It should be underwater. It WANTS to be underwater. Considering the fact that it is surrounded by water it WILL be underwater. If you dig/pump/whatever New Orleans out, it will just happen again a few years(months?) down the line.
Engineering arrogance is responsible for the deaths of god knows how many people, to say nothing of those still living who have lost so much. Are we really going to make this same mistake again?
Get those people out of there. Do all that we can for them. Then leave that damned city as it lies.
If you make me dictator with a solid gold Cadillac and agree to follow my eminently rational and simple plan, along with any whims I have along the way, like, say damming up the Mississippi and making it flow backward, I can 100% guarentee that you will be safe from any nasty storm surge.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Life savings? Not really. Without the knowledge the state will step in, they would simply have insured themselves in advance, privately for the total loss of their environment and for a sum capable of rebuilding everything from the city layout up. 25billion USD worth.
Feasible? Nope, not even remotely. Alternative? Invest, over time, in a state apparatus big enough to defend you from all the massive threats - war, disaster, famine.
It's not socialism because that's not the best definition of socialism - all states do this work to some degree, even yours. Socialism attempts to remove *all* risks even housing, employment, education and health.
The current free market allows for defence and disaster to be covered with some even tolerating education and health.
I live on the east coast of Florida. We lost our house in the first one last year, while we were in it, a quarter of the roof went for a sightseeing tour of cental Florida.
I know if there was a strong likelyhood of flooding, I would move away. I chose my new house based on the flooding I have seen in this town over the last 10 yrs. I obviously wouldn't move to the low lying areas.
Here was my rational for not moving away from here before and after.
The Odds of your particular town being in the path of a hurricane are pretty high against.
Th Odds of said hurricane damaging your property are still pretty high.
The Odds of said damage to be catastrophic are even higher.
The Odds of it happening twice are astronomical.
Just to prove my point the second Hurricane (2weeks later) did no damage to my temporary housing (a 20 yr old Trailer with a lean to extension) despite destroying several others on my street.
Having said all that, my property wasn't (and Isn't) below sea level. The community rebuilt. It was a mother bitch for a few months. People lost homes, work, family members. FEMA was on the job, for the most part. But again, our water washed back out or to lower ground. Hard to deliver supplies underwater. We are just now seeing the roof repairs being completed. (Where I work contractor says 2 more weeks don't they always)
So my recommendation: All effort be to rebuild immediately HIGHER.
I know, we need the ports.
COMMUTE.
I know, the cajuns. hmmm......
FEMA bought trailers for FL. Houseboats for N.O.
This situation sucks all the way round, I gauruntee dat.
To all calling for a temporary ban of jokes, I must remind you, we humans use humor to cope. I have a deep understanding of the pain a hurricane can cause, however, I can, nay NEED to find something to break the sadness and tension occasionally. Hell, you should have heard some of the jokes we were telling during our aftermath. 'insert random Skylight joke here'
Their losses are not funny. They are not at fault for where they where born. I just wish I had a good joke that wasn't tasteless to put here to prove my point.
Good Luck to you all.
OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games
Saw this in a yahoo new story:
"I can only imagine that this is what Hiroshima looked like 60 years ago," said Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour after touring the destruction by air Tuesday.
WTF? This is a terrible disaster, but I'm guessing Hiroshima didn't look like it had been flooded by the ocean after being hit by a hurricane. Hiroshima was leveled by a NUCLEAR BOMB. Big difference. I'm not sure what's more amazing, that the governor of a state would make such a ridiculous comparison or that a reporter wouldn't just let the remark slip by.
Find coupons in Greeley
The most relevant difference is that Pat Robertson isn't in charge of any country, and therefore is no serious threat to anyone.
Were he in danger of becoming U.S. President, I'd be more worried about him, but that isn't going to happen.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Ah, but why did Congress have to cut funding? To pay for the tax cuts to get reelected and for the war that Bush wanted ...
... Remember, this is a war that Bush decided he could start without the need for Congress to declare it.
Congress passed the tax cuts, the budget is their Constitutional responsibility. They cut funding to spend money on their local pork projects, to resurrect local military contracts for weapons the Pentagon says they don't need or want, etc.
Congress authorized the President to use military force, they authorized the war although they did not want to use the word "war". Declaring war is Congress' Constitutional responsibility.
I realize you don't like Bush, that's fine, but at least be intellectually honest and blame the correct folks.
Link to story
As for Western style diet and education, if you mean American style, well, they might be better with what they have.
Kind Regards
"A few great minds are enough to endow humanity with monstrous power, but a few great hearts are not enough to make us w
Actually the settlement started on the "high" ground. Over the centuries it grew, and sank.
:-)
And of course the obligatory: "blame France". It was their city to begin with.
Obviously that's on a geographical basis, but if you are dropped in any random point in the United States, most likely you'll be in the midst of conservatives. :)
From: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1083195&page =4
"Emergency medical teams from across the country were sent into the region and President Bush cut short his Texas vacation Tuesday to return to Washington to focus on the storm damage."
While it's not obvious from the timing of your post, many of the "anti-Bush" follow-up posts were made well after Bush had already cut his vacation short.
Mindless anti-Bushism is just as bad as mindless pro-Bushism. And no, I'm not suggesting that your comment, though inflammatory, was motivated by the former. Clearly some "me-too" posts were, however.
GF.
Lots of petrified grits
A plethora of examples can be found here
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
The Europeans posting here with comparisons to the Netherlands fail to understand the problem. New Orleans *is* built like the Netherlands. But a really bad North Sea storm surge (like the 1953 surge which killed 2000 people) raises sea level by 3 meters. New Orleans has had *two* storm surges *twice* that high in the last 50 years.
The people saying "it's their own damn fault for building below sea level" don't understand how cities grow over centuries. When New Orleans was founded, it *was* well above sea level -- the original settlers found it a bit risky, but acceptable. The city is sinking, and the people living in lowlying neighborhoods have always been among the poorest -- for them, it's a choice between a home which might flood, or no home at all. Tight city planning restrictions might have prevented this, but the decisions were made 50-150 years ago, in a climate of intense racism and class division. It's specious to say "it's their own fault", since those at fault aren't the same "they" as those who suffer.
People who suggest jacking up the city like Chicago are on the right track, but fail to understand the magnitude of the problem. Chicago did this in the 1850s, when its population was 30-60,000. Something like half a square mile of downtown Chicago is now raised above the river. Here, we're talking about half a million people, and 50 square miles of city. And even then, remember that Chicago's basement level totally flooded due to a tunnel rupture in 1992.
New Orleans is an engineering and planning failure, but probably not one which could have been prevented. People have no choice but to make the best of existing situations, and what seems wise at one point in a city's long history may only be proven foolish years or centuries down the road. Long-term plans also conflict with short-term needs, and short-term needs usually win.
There is no silver lining to this tragedy, except that it gives us a chance to start over, essentially completely from scratch, and do things right this time. New Orleans is now more or less a horribly blank slate: almost all the buildings in the city will need to be torn down after soaking in water for weeks. As I see it, there are three long-term ways to solve the problem of New Orleans.
1) Abandon the city. This is almost inconceivable. In addition to the massive impact on Mississippi River and Gulf Coast commerce, what do you do with the million people displaced? Even if they scatter across the country, a million poor homeless refugees will be catastrophic to the already-struggling state and national poverty programs. If they all move only to neighboring states, state governments will collapse under the load. Nevertheless, this might actually be the cheapest long-term solution.
2) Stilt houses. No, don't laugh. In Hawaii where I grew up, many coastal houses are built on 10-foot timber or concrete stilts to keep them above the height of storm surges and tidal waves. We could rebuild every single house in New Orleans as a stilt house. It would make the houses more costly to rebuild, but not by much. The next flood would still destroy roads and utilities, but the houses and their residents could be saved.
3) Jack and fill. Like Chicago, but more so. Demolish all the flooded houses. Grab every dredge, barge, and dump truck you can, and start on one end of the city, dumping Missisippi Delta mud onto the ground ten feet deep. On the other end of the city, start building houses with sturdy frames on concrete pier foundations. When the landfill reaches a rebuild neighborhood, jack up the houses ten feet, dump in ten feet of landfill, and continue on to the next neighborhood. As the city keeps sinking over the next centuries, keep jacking up houses and dumping more dirt. It's probably a $100-$200 billion project (it'd be more, but most of New Orleans' houses are very cheap), but it's a solid long-term solution for keeping New Orleans above water forever.
The one thing we can't afford to do is the one thing that will almost certainly happen. The levees will be plugged, the pumps repaired, and the city rebuilt as it stood a week ago. And forty years from now, this will happen again.
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
I watched CNN this morning and one of the Governors was mentioning that the President and White House have been helping to orgranize federal efforts. The Governor(s) told the President it was too early to personally inspect the devastation.
I realize it may be difficult for some to realize but a President is never truly away from the office. Vacations are being offsite and only working single digit hours as opposed to being in DC and working far into the double digit hours. And that is when there is no crisis.
I don't believe in God but if I did I'd have to pat him on the back for finally laying the smack down on that festering stink hole New Orleans. I'm laughing my ass off. Learn to swim, niggers.
Let's not lose perspective. Some people are dying, and others are losing everything they own. A little tact from the privileged and ever-sarcastic crowd might be in order.
It's a strange thing. We all care so much that a 100 or so people are/will be dead in this storm/flood. We have the think-of-the-children dept out in full force explaining to us what a bunch of assholes we are for not killing ourselves outright from the grief (look around - some of those posts are even at +5).
But look, 1000 dead in Iraq, but somehow the distance will make it seem less important. In fact, it's several orders of magnitude worse than "Katrina". Don't take this as flamebait or troll or whatever - I have been thinking a lot about how people emotionally rate the random deaths that appear on TV. It seems that your perceived identity has the most effect out of all factors on what you think. You feel American? Then 100 dead Americans will matter more to you than 1000 Iraqis. It's natural, but it sucks, and it makes the morality death-squad patrolling this topic sound even less credible.
Note: if you feel you have to mod this down, here's a hint: OFFTOPIC. I'm certainly not trying to be inflammatory
It's a shame.
Americans wondering what could be done to prevent this kind of disaster.
Well how about developing some kind environmental conscience?
How about not buying this 15liters/100Kmh big ugly machines you think are cars?
Yep, I'm typing from Houston right now. I'm a native, born and raised. To Galvenston is a place to get away from it all just for a few hours. I know its not New Orleans, but its the closest "cute" (self defined) as we are going to get. Some of us aren't excited about the water there, then that's why a lot of people go to South Padre Island with much clearer water and not as much muck.
My question: What is the devesation/death comparison to the Galveston hurricane storm of 1900 compared to Hurricane Katrina? It has always been proud (sort of) to say that Galveston had largest/worst natural disaster of US history. Didn't the 1900 hurricane have 8,000 deaths. There are SOOOOOO many horror stories of that storm (like the one with Nuns and orphans tied to each other with a rope to keep the children from being swept away, but then after the storm someone found a rope and started pulling on it and found all the Nuns and children dead all still attached).
The last hurricane we had was Alicia (1983) and that was scary as hell. We are waaaayyy overdue for one that when we get one it will kick our ass. The last disaster we had here was Tropical Storm Allison. It is not that difficult to understand what New Orleans is going through because we Houstonians had the shit kicked out of us after that. I'm sure everyone remembers that! The TNT network had a television movie about what the Medical Center went through with that storm (Ricky Schroder was in it, and BTW a lot of the stuff in there were LIES: Neighborhoods around there, easy accessibility to the hospitals [you can't park in front idiots, it's like a small city unto itself], idiotic characters and weather [it was in the middle of June or July and the movie was set in winter/fall with people is winter coats, frost, and foggy breathing])
Yeah, a lot of us (Americans) are shaking our heads at that one. What happened is pretty devestating, but comparing it to the tsunami is overreacting.
Poll at work: "Reporters and politicians have been calling Katrina "our tsunami". Is that reasonable?"
Yes: 0
No: 12
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
In Distraction, the Dutch declare war on the US so that the Americans will take the Netherlands over and deal with the flooding crisis by relocating the entire population. Incidentally, much of the book takes place in Louisiana, but without any flooding.
Personally, I think the Dutch would be better off in space.
Maybe Haiti can take in the refugees? Provided Canada doesn't annex it first, of course...
The generalization of the McDonald's Rule of War is that people who live in rich places don't fight wars. So the problem is that the Middle East is already too inhospitable, making it more so will only increase the violence (until everyone is dead, which I guess your plan would speed up). Terraforming the Middle East would be much more effective.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that there is no global warming. But I've noticed a growing tendency over the last few years, that any time you have bad weather events, that you get a lot of non-scientists raising the global warming alarm.
It reminds me of a documentary I was watching recently on Benjamin Franklin, and they were talking about the cultural environment of Boston during the late 1700's, and how if someone's house or business was struck by lighting, the Boston FD would put out neighboring houses and buildings, but not the original house or building, because it was deemed that God had chosen to punish the occupents by striking them with lightning.
People never seem to accept that bad weather, lightning strikes, and even severe hurricanes are just a normal part of the weather cycle (even if a hurricane this strong might only happens once or twice a century - in geological terms that would be pretty normal).
I think that Global Warming has become the new superstition of the 20th century. Looking for something to blame fires, hurricanes, droughts, floods, anything you want on? Global Warming!!!!!
"Life, in a state of nature, is nasty, brutish, and short."
Thomas Hobbes said that, not Adam Smith. It's from Leviathan
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
you suck me clean -- once I'm done cornholing your mother?
Not all Americans drive gas guzzlers. Gas guzzling consumerism has nothing to do with natural disasters. If you want to see a natural disaster, take a look up yer mum's skirt once I'm done with her.
And you can take that to the bank, buddy boy!
regardless of whether its caused by an earth movement or by a storm surge. There is a lot less death with the storm surge because we had some time to prepare and get away from shore. If we could predict earthquakes like we do storms it would make the 'time to die' greater that the 'time to escape'.
But the buildings, trees, hotels, businesses etcetera are just as vulnerable, and are just as devastated as Indonesia was (more if you consider the 'cost of replacement' value of the infrastructure.)
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Should ppl not live in NYC because it's such a great Terrorist target? Should people just get up and move? Should the federal government not pay to help out after massive terrorist attacks (not that they have, mind you)?
:)
More food for thought
--LWM
Over time, maintenance of the levees will be relaxed as people complain about the costs and forget/ignore the consequences. Even if they are maintained, eventually there will be another, bigger, storm that overcomes the defenses. The degree to which this is again a disaster will depend upon the technology in place then.
In short, things will be improved a little, but not enough.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Any other New Jersey residents representing in this hizzy?
I'm still planning to head out to NOLA for jazzfest in April; I figure by then the city will be back to its old self, perhaps a little filthier and swampier than usual.
They have no DSL, no 2.5 pound laptop with a 14" screen, no widescreen plasma TV, no l337 gaming system, no cell phones, no e-mail, no traffic, no air pollution, no lead poisoning, no ...
Hmm...
It's got some plusses. I, however, like my Starcrack.
--LWM
Don't forget that there will be no food and no water - and no shelter - on the side of a highway as the hurricane hits. How much of our population can handle a 12-hour hike while carrying food, water, and a tent??? You're dreaming if you think the average person is 1) equiped to do this and 2) able to handle this. Remember - these are people who can't afford gym memberships.
--LWM
Of course we get jokes! When NYC got hit, we joked about that too. Humour is a much better way to handle absolute bleakness then despair is.
Jokes don't mean we have no feelings, it means we need to laugh.
--LWM
That the United States bailed out with $$$$ when the tsunami hit, what last year?
Within days we had money, planes, etc going to these countries, and have yet to hear from anyone about providing assistance from even our biggest and best allies.
Countries want American money when they are in a pinch, but when America might just need some help they suddenly forget.
over 100,000 Iraqis dead and counting...
What sort of security is (now, was) there around the levees? And how feasible would it have been for a relatively small team of people to plant enough explosives to blow open a big enough hole?
I've read that one of the breaches is 200 feet wide. Did it start out smaller and then expand as water rushed through it?
Actually the government does fund contingency planning for asteroids. I had a friend working on that project at Los Alamos for a while. They were doing damage calculations for different kinds of asteroids, calculating predictions of occurrence, and calculating missile feasibility for dealing with them.
Now we have a real test to see which company really makes the best paper towels.
by the way, I showed up at work this morning to discover my coworkers were collecting money to help 16 families of refugees staying in the motel in front of our office. I gave all the money in my wallet. Just because we're joking doesn't mean we're not appropriately sympathetic to those who are now homeless and those who have been completely lost.
Kind of predictable that some piece of trash would turn the suffering of thousands of people into a political jab.
Die in a fire.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Pittsburgh.
Though of course, some people would consider the Pirates to be a disaster.
"I have as much authority as the pope, I just
don't have as many people who believe it" - George Carlin
Why should we dwell on all the bad things as you ask when instead we can find something to laugh about. Millions of people die terrible, painful, untimely deaths every day around the world. Have you been avoiding laughing your entire life, every day, to honor those who die untimely deaths each day?
You sound like a young person who's not yet experienced the loss of a close loved one. You'll change your tune when your parents die from a long illness, and you truly experience "loss."
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
http://www.internetweek.com/news/170101492
Although it's sad that Red Cross has to issue out warnings for scammers, particulary in email form. It's ludacris that WIndows has impacted, impeded even, the donation process for people in dire need.
-PMP-
What? Are you serious? Dude, I just happen to live in Pittsburgh too. We've got 3 rivers. They tend to flood sometimes. Hell, last year leftovers from Ivan caused some pretty major damage here - no where near the devasation in New Orleans, but still. No one was telling us to abandon the Golden Triangle then, and no one told us to abandon it in 1996 or 1936 either. Although perhaps we should just abandon the Pirates...
Blame the French. All problems are the French. After all, they are the ones that built a city in that damned swamp anyway. And they are the ones that made it so interesting that so many people are not willing to abandon it, even two centuries later.
On a side note, what are the Saints going to do without their stadium. I bet the NFL is going through conniptions right about now.
There's no looting after the Japanese have an earthquake, either. I wonder if it's possible for slashdot to discuss the cultural differences that lead to looting without everyone being modded to flamebait.
>> what can be done to prevent and/or lessen such disasters in the future?"
How about we don't build on the flood plain?
I suppose the water might be REALLY bad, but if I was going to die of thirst, I might be tempted to drink some of that before I succombed to death by dehydration. Then just hope you can live long enough to get medical attention if you do get really sick from drinking it.
Sunday I topped off my motorcycle for $2.59/gallon for midrange. Good thing I get 40mi/gal.
I'm starting to remember that the worst thing about the 1970s wasn't the music.
This is not my sandwich.
Yes, we see what appears to be a white woman (although she could be hispanic) with some food.
What the picture does not show, and what we do not see, but presumably the photographer did, is how she aquired the food. Did she break in to a grocery store and take it? Did it float out of the store and she grabed it as it was floating?
Notice it says "finding from" not "finding at" which does imply that they found the bread and sodas outside the store, not inside.
But maybe that's just my interpretation. Maybe they did go into the grocery store and take the bread and sodas. Mayhap the difference between finding and looting is in what was taken? Food (bread and soda) vs. liquor? We don't know what the young man took, presumably the photographer does, and maybe that's the difference.
Nah, gotta be racism.
RACISM!
btw, check out the NO newspaper for some interesting stories on the looting. Six foot pallets full of liquor, basketball goals, jewelry, DVDs and more are being looted now.
I really have no interest in your reminescences about your sordid love-life!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
I'm not exactly a Bush fan, but I wouldn't blame him for the economy either. No matter what a president does or says, he cannot create even a single job in say.. the manufacturing sector. He cannot lower gasoline prices. It's not that there is some magic button he just refuses to push, it's just that people like to think that these things are in someone's control. They aren't. Why does the stock market fluctuate? Occasionally because of something someone says, or one company does, but it's a collective thing overall.
By the same token, and on the other hand, the White House, whether we like the guy in it or not, has no business taking credit for a booming economy either.
You can indeed argue with me over one point or another, and on a small time scale, the president can affect things that happen. But overall, let us remember that congress makes the laws (er including social security and environmental policy), the Federal Reserve sets the Prime Rate, and the market determines prices through supply and demand. Unfortunately, there is no single human being who can make all of these things nice and slap happy for all of us, and there never will be.
Actually, there are things that a president can do, to affect the economy, the price of gas, etc. In fact, he's just done a few of them... Not the least of which is releasing oil/gas from the strategic petroleum reserves. His announced purpose in doing so was to help prevent the increase in oil prices caused by the shutdown of petroleum processors in the gulf coast area. Further, the president, can from the bully pulpit of the White House, set the course for decisions by Congress (who make the laws), the Federal Reserve (who set the interest rates), and Wall Street, who determine where the money actually goes...
-- All That's Evil in the Geek Space
One more thing to add about Galveston: The 1900 Galveston Hurricane is the nation's deadliest natural disaster with over 8,000 dead in Galveston alone, not including surrounding areas which some predict could have raised the total to 12,000. Some would like to compare this to the 1906 San Francisco earthquake, but it still can't compare to the 1900 Galveston hurricane.
h urr.htm
The tragedy killed more Americans than any other natural disaster, indeed, more than the legendary Johnstown Flood, the San Francisco Earthquake, the 1938 New England Hurricane and the Great Chicago Fire combined.
http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/events/1900
Okay, a non-reactionary take instead:
;-)
Of course not, I don't think people should be allowed to die because a natural disaster struck. I know, as an engineer in this field, that these wind loads and flooding can be significantly mitigated with proper design and construction.
I'm dismayed and disappointed that these people had to sie because people who know better (building officials, engineers, code writers, builders) let these people die unnecessarily by their lack of caring. The killed these people because they didn't follow accepted engineering practice - set out in the buidling code - to make buildings safe for the public.
We're not a nation of barbarians - we're a nation of optimists. We don't really believe that winds can be this bad, even when confronted with the data. We want people to be able to buy affordable housing. We want them to get the most (square footage, creature comforts) for their money. We bend the rules, take shortcuts, over-promise. Nobody is the wiser and, hey, we've done it for XX years without any problems, so why change? We believe that our builders are honest, truhful folks who will abide by the code. We think our building officials will catch the few unscrupulous builders, and correct the honest ones who just miss something. We're walking into the abattoir with our eyes closed and a song on our lips.
(Okay, that last line is a bit sensational, but it seemed a good way to sum it up with a little "punch"
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
There's not much looting in certain areas of the U.S. after natural disasters. Other areas are more prone to it.
I don't know if this can be attributed solely to cultural factors. One must also consider that merely taking fresh water from a closed-up grocery store can technically be defined as "looting," even though many of us (myself included) would not think twice about doing so in a life-or-death situation.
That is because ice is easy to make. In New England in 1997 (or around then), there was an ice storm that knocked out power for a while. Some places were without power for a few weeks. Others, not so bad. Northern VT and southern Quebec got it worst. Generators went up in price like you wouldn't believe. Total price gouging. Legislators made a fuss about it, I don't remember if they were able to do anything though. The supply of generators was finite, unlike ice, which could be easily made. Maybe not directly in the disaster area, but if I understand it correctly, you could find bags of ice pretty easily. So people would pay a lot of money for generators, because they were a necessity.
and counting. 3201 is the number of posts to beat.
If the right doesn't like a scientific opinion, especially one held by an overwhelming majority of scientists, they try to make it appear that there is a "controversy" surrounding an issue, and demand "balanced coverage" of their position, which Fox happily provides them. Because if there is a controversy, "it does not make sense" to make a policy decision in favor of one position or the other.
This is most obvious when it comes to evolution and global warming. The first attack is usually based around a claim that evloutionary theory can't explain $X, right now, so...intelligent design! Bush said as much recently, stating that we ought to "teach the controversy" in classrooms. I found a nice quote on the subject of ID from a Jason Rosenhouse: The main argument made by ID proponents in this regard is based on the idea of irreducible complexity. Michael Behe coined this term in his 1996 book Darwin's Black Box. He defined a system to be irreducibly complex if it consisted of several, well-matched parts each of which was essential for the system to function properly. It was his assertion that such a system could not evolve by gradual accretion, because any intermediate structures would have to be nonfunctional. Since there are plenty of biological systems that fit Behe's definition, the conclusion is that there are complex biological systems whose formation simply can not be attributed to prolonged selection, regardless of any other evidence. If Behe were right, the observation of irreducible complexity would instantly trump whatever circumstantial evidence I could provide in favor of natural selection. But he is not right. Immediately after Behe's book hit the stores, scientists took up the thankless task of stating the obvious: irreducible complexity in the present tells us nothing about functional precursors in the past. (emphasis mine)Dismissals of global warming, which virually all scientists agree is happening and is being accelerated by human activities, generally involve something like "Global warming can't be making $x worse, because we already had bad $x happen decades ago! Therefore, global warming is nonsense!"
Such is the case with Mr. Lowry. We had bad hurricanes in the 50's, therefore global warming has nothing to do with causing more hurricanes and/or making them worse today. And, lets throw in a cheap slam on Al Gore while we're at it. Now, I'm not a meteorologist or a climatologist, so I'm not qualified to write scientific papers on global warming or hurricanes. But neither is Rich Lowry. His main accomplishments seem to be writing the book "Legacy: Paying the Price for the Clinton Years" and attacking John Kerry over his statements on war crimes commited by U.S. troops in Vietnam. Now, war crimes are a given in any war, especially when the people you are supposed to protect are also the ones trying to kill you.
But I'm sure Rich was just being tough on another politician, as the press should be. So, I'm eagerly awaiting Rich's book on "Far Worse Legacy: The trillions Bush added to the national debt and losing thousands of American troops over an inexcusable misuse of intelligence". Because if there's one thing right wing pundits hate to do, it's holding their own party to far, far lower standards than their opponents. Otherwise Rich would just be a pathetic partisan hack.
In a few weeks? Try now!
The record high price for gasoline (set in August, 1981), adjusted for inflation, works out to $3.08 / gallon in today's money. Stations in the Kansas City area BROKE that record, this afternoon. We do not, by any stretch, have the highest prices in the nation.
Many of our refineries are in the Gulf Coast region, and shut down and/or damaged by Hurricane Katrina. There's the choke point in the supply / demand equation. The price of crude has hit records, as well, but Uncle Sam is releasing some of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, to try to keep that from going too high.
... by the Dew of Mountains the thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning
Commerce determines where a city is best built - not safety.
Modern ports are no longer restricted to the very edge of the ocean. This is why Galveston, Texas is no longer the major port in the region, having been replaced by a canal that goes to Houston, Texas, about 30 miles inland (and much safer).
New Orleans, too, is no longer itself a major port: Most of the port facilities are now 20-50 miles upriver. There's no reason the people could's also live 20-50 miles upriver.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
People in cities loot. It's because there's a food shortage -- people tend to keep less food, and shop more often, so you need to get the food. If the owners have left, and there's nobody coming to work, someone will eventually break in to get at the goods.
as my daughter (4) would say...
"the foolish man built his house upon the sand.
The wise man built his house upon the rocks"
Borrowed Time for the last 50 years. The place has been sinking and they've been losing land by the day. The historical and Cultural losses are going to be horrible if they can't re-claim the city from Mother Nature. Yet I ask myself.... Can you really fight Mother Nature? And if so how long will it be after we re-gain a foothold before she strikes again and pushes us back? Maybe it would simply be best to leave the city at rest where it lies and spend the money re-locating the residents to more habitable and safer locales.
Jay Dale "If you're not living on the edge then you're taking up too much space!"
Check out the past....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mississippi_Flo od_of_1927/
Also see the book "Rising Tide" by John Barry
Why not keep New Orleans flooded for a while and dredge silt out of the rest of the Missippi delta to put on top of New Orleans? Even a modest raise of a couple of feet would be a big improvement.
Otherwise, New Orleans isn't worth being rebuilt unless they:
(1) Rebuild residental properties inland and provide great public transportation to the coast for industry.
(2) Put a city ordinance in place that no part of a building under sea level can be used as a residental dwelling. FEMA/HUD would probably have to pick up the tab for building theese flood proof appartments, but they would probably save a lot of tax dollars in the long run. Whith housing prices the way they are now the government might even come out ahead if it sells portions of the top floors as nice condos. Also, I'd build three grades of appartment and try to evenly space them throughout each building so it doesn't turn into one of the "projects". Who wouldn't want to live in a building with a grocery store on the first level?
bash-2.04$
bash-2.04$yes "Don't you hate dialup connections?"| write USERNAME
After WW2, it took us 4 months to pump out the Wieringermeerpolder [1] (an area 3x the size of New Orleans, and at the same ground level, i.e. 4 m below sea level). So New Orleans might be doable in 6 weeks. It all comes down to available pump capacity, of course.
1: the polder hadn't been flooded because of a storm, but as an act of revenge by the retreating German army.
The really fun thing about this is, Fred Phelps (head of the Westboro Baptist Church, the guy protesting at soldiers' funerals), is a Democrat. Personally invited to both of Clinton's inaugurations.
Here are some nice photos of him cozied up with Al and Tipper.
I guess he's just doing his own special part to oppose the war.
Denver Isuzu Suzuki
Here is a way to pump out the city:
Use a jet engine to power a jet pump, lightweight and high flow.
http://www.flometrics.com/Jetpump.html
I don't mean to be insensitive because I am deeply sorry about the plight of the hundreds of thousands of people affected by the tragedy. On the other hand, those who build their home 12' or more below sea level in a hurricane zone are safe because? If a home is repeatedly flooded out, blown away, or otherwise destroyed by nature should we rebuild in the same area? I see it time and time again. Area destroyed, rebuilt, destroyed again. Who is paying for this? I think you know the answer.
I filled up on Sunday at $2.49. Gas went up on Monday to $2.59. On Wednesday it went up twice! Wednesday morning it was $2.69 and around 11 PM it went to $2.99. This along with heat (natural gas went up 35-40% in the last 1-2 years) over the winter, and I won't be able to afford to do anything other than sit at home. I've already claimed bankruptcy, have no car payment (drive a junker) and no credit card bills. How is the average American worker going to survive?? By stealing gas or food? by keeping their house at 60 degrees over the winter? what about those on fixed incomes like social security? This was the first year in the last 3 years we even got raises (work in a public library in PA...state funding cuts in the last 3 years thanks to our Gov Rendell) and our raise was a whopping 3%. There is no way to even out this grossly unbalanced income to expense ratio. I would love to hear from anyone with real suggestions on how to survive.
and let the silt build up as it always done.
problem solved.
it's like the people who build on the stochastic mud flow plains around Mt. Rainier - when the mountain erupts - which it will, they will be buried under hundreds of feet of burning hot mud.
which is why it's great farmland - but lousy for residential property.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Finding
Looting
and
after, on the 30th.
Note that these are false color images: clouds are white and light blue, land is green, water is darker blue or blue-grey.
Finally, I totally agree with the parent's plug for John McPhee's The Control of Nature. The 2nd link is to Amazon's excerpt from the book where McPhee discusses the Atchafalaya.
--- Often in error; never in doubt!
After hurricane Betsy in which a much smaller section of the levy surrounding the city failed recommendations were made to re inforce the levies with interlock steel pilings and increased the pumping capacity to remove the water. Maybe this time this will be done! If Japan can make land build an International Airport on it. Maybe American Engineers can save and rebuild New Orleans. If billions can be spent in Bagdad why not billions in our own backyard. Our very first priority is to take care of the 350,000 plus refugees. Lets not forget about the humanity. My personal love and prayers to all the suffering.These people are Americans.
Very plain and simple Racially bias media!
There is nothing like a stupid revisionist on slashdot.u sh/etc/cron.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/amb
December 4th. 1992 [Clinton became prez in 1993]
US President George Bush launches Somalia intervention
Deteriorating security prevents the UN mission from delivering food and supplies to the starving Somalis. Relief flights are looted upon landing, food convoys are hijacked and aid workers assaulted. The UN appeals to its members to provide military forces to assist the humanitarian operation.
With only weeks left in his term as president, George Bush responds to the UN request, proposing that US combat troops lead an international UN force to secure the environment for relief operations. On December 5, the UN accepts his offer, and Bush orders 25,000 US troops into Somalia. On December 9th, the first US Marines land on the beach.
Bush assures the American people and troops involved that this is not an open ended commitment; the objective is to quickly provide a secure environment so that food can get through to the starving Somalis, and then the operation will be turned over to the UN peacekeeping forces. He assures the public that he plans for the troops to be home by Clinton's inauguration in January.
This US-led United Task Force (UNITAF) is dubbed "Operation Restore Hope."
Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
you are a disgusting person to make fun of such a tradgic event
The only disgusting thing here is the fact that they didn't burn New Orleans to the ground when the French surrendered it.
How we know is more important than what we know.
i think you would be sining a different tune if you or your relatives were impacted by this.. if your house was floating down the steet and you had no clean water to drink.. i think you would realize what a sick person you are..
A similar point is raised in this New Orleanian's story...
can't believe that hasn't happened yet. great post man, smart and well thought-out.
a horrible place
Sounds to be like the next setting of Survivor. the real game
There's now talks that the New Orleans Saints could possibly move to San Antonio. Coupled with the possibility of Mardi Gras being canceled in 2006, the financial future looks very dim for NO. If both events occure, NO may never recover financially.
If that is the price to pay so we dont have to keep shelling out $ every few years to bail these morons out, then I'm all for it.
Its not like these people didnt have warning.. Sheesh.. Live in bowl long enough and you know its going to flood, eventually.
Cajun culture? They sound damned stupid to me for living there, so again, no great loss.
Call me cold-hearted if you like, but i have ZERO sympathy for this sort of thing. They WERE WARNED for f-ing *generations*..
---- Booth was a patriot ----