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Reasonable Salary for Entry Level Programmers?
An anonymous reader asks: "I will be graduating from college in May with a degree in computer science. I have begun the job search and gone on a few interviews. So far I have gotten two job offers which I am thankful for, but the salary seems low. I am not saying that I am too good to pay my dues and work my way up, but I could make more waiting tables. It is somewhat distressing that I have spent 4 years of college and years before that developing my programming skills. I am not trying to get rich, but I was hoping that the high level of skill required would account for something(no offense intended to waiters). Can anyone give me any insight about what a reasonable starting salary would be, for an entry level software engineer?"
...but it'll probably be paid in rupees.
The CB App. What's your 20?
you have to make all your money before the job is outsourced.
I'm starting an entry level programming job at a local Uni for a little above minimum wage. Is a BS in CS going to give me > 20hr?
Steal This Sig
Ill be graduating in May as well and the range Ive seen is 45k to 55k
I guess you should be thankful you are getting a job. With a masters I feel my salary is low too but I have settled for it now and will search for a better job. At least will have something to pay up my dues.
You found a programming job in America?
This is how the real world works.. you arent worth a damned thing until you can prove yourself. That takes time and persistance.
And no, '4 years of college' doesnt prove you are worth anything. It proves you can learn, but not much more.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
$40-50k... before you get outsourced to Bangalore or Manila
Approximately 3 outsourced India worker salaries per year.
The coolest voice ever.
http://www.salary.com
I go a school in the University of Wisconsin system. The average range for CS graduates who get jobs in the area is probably $40,000 - $55,000, but our program is EXTREMELY intense, so I would guess that many places are a bit less...my $0.02.
-James
It's about your value in the long term not the short term. In the short term, everyone will have to train you and teach you real life things, as an advance on what you learnt in college. If you want to be fussy, at least be fussy about the industry you want to work in, not the money you want to earn (to start with anyway).
It's tough to say. My first programming gig was more than a decade ago working on the campus while I was going to school... I made just over minimum wage (which, at the time, was around 4.25/hr.) However, within my first year as a professional developer I was earning well into the 60K/year range. During the dot-com boom, wages went insane--I was no longer a junior programmer by that time, but I hired and managed several. There were guys (and a couple women) on my teams fresh out of college--some hadn't even finished their degrees--that were making in excess of 100K per year. (I should note that I live in Seattle, which is a fairly high-dollar market.)
Things have toned down quite a bit--mostly as a result of the dot-crash and Indian outsourcing. I've been able to hire smart junior developers with a year or two of post-college experience for $20/hr or around 40K a year. And at that rate I am considered to be paying pretty well. Many of them left jobs where they were making as little as 35K a year. I should also mention that many hiring managers (myself included) are trepidatious about hiring people streight out of college with zero real world experience... this may limit the numbers on your first gig.
The middle of the market is pretty low right now as well--it used to be that a solid software engineer with 5-10 years of good experience made 150-200K a year, but that's no longer the case, with these folks settling in the 80K/year range.
The top of the market, however, hasn't been impacted as much. The sky is still the limit for a really good developer. The reason, of course is that smart managers know that one EXCELLENT developer can produce more per week than ten GOOD developers. (yes, really.) It's fairly easy for someone who views crafting a good algorithm in much the same way as a poet turning a phrase--who understands the nuances of data structures and algorithms AS WELL AS how to put that knowledge to work in the real world, and can work effectively on a team as the architect of a midsize-to-large project (say 150-250 thousand lines of code, not that LOC is a good measure) to make a quarter to a half million a year in total compensation. However, for every one of these there is 1000 that will never get to this level.
I suggest taking a real mental inventory of your skills and your drive--if you think you can be one of the best this is still a great industry. Otherwise it's fun and you can earn a good living, but you won't make money hand-over-fist like you did in the late 90's. My experience is that the vast majority of developers in their first 5 years or so of their career vastly over-estimate their abilities. It takes time to hone this particular craft... be patient. One way to accelerate the process is to read everything you can get your hands on, and not just language books. At the very least, pick up the Pragmatic Programmer, and you should also read Writing Solid Code, Rapid Development, Code Complete, and other great books. Reaching the top of the market in terms of salary is about more than writing code--it's about understanding the software development lifecycle, how to run a project, and how to work with people. Also, learning to understand requirements gathering will give you a leg up.
--- JRJ
jrjBlog
the difference between waiting tables and going to college is that when you go to college, your pay goes up. I started w/ the government at 38k in DC. In a year it'll be closer to 50 likely, and I'll cap out around 115-150 if I stay through my career.
I do security
Lie like hell on your resume-
:)
Or start waiting tables
I browse at +5 Flamebait- moderation for all or moderation for none.
If you had bothered to state your location, we might actually be helpful. There are a few minor differences between places tasks are outsourced from, and to.
and I still make no more than what someone doing 3 years of shipping and receiving would make.
Your salary is dependant on the company. Some companies don't care about emloyees and love to turn them over.
Also, if you are just starting, I wouldn't be worried. After a year they will probably bump you up to something more reasonable. You also can ask for a raise. If you ask for something you think you should be making and get rejected, look for a new position somewhere else.
First you need to go to Salary.com and look up your desired position in your area - then subtract about 30%. Then, if you don't already, you need to realize that since the market is saturated, it's not really a high level skill (obviously, since apparently a lot of people can do it). The job market, especially in IT, is terrible. You just have to take Joe jobs until you find a decent one, hoping you can work at something relevant and in your field along the way.
Yes, it's depressing. It's depressing for all of us, but as long as an Indian will do it for chicken scratch, you're SOL unless you're a phenomenal salesman or work your ASS off like the rest of us trying to be really good at something (or grow some tits).
/bitter rant
Salary Wizard.
It makes big difference... I started a few years ago at 55K, and thought it was a ton of money until I started looking for a place to live. Paying half your take home pay only to live 50yards from the railroad tracks really sucks.
Your hybrid is not saving the environment. Its purpose is to make you feel good about buying something.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics keeps this sort of data, though possibly with some significant lag time.
Try looking at: http://www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm.
(Average Indian Wage) + (25% outsourcing overhead) + (25% less-likely-to-die-from-unstable-political-climate premium) + (25% understands lame jokes from upper mgmt premium)
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
Seriously...anything you can get is enough. It's an employer's market right now, and they know it. What you need to look for is the experience. A year or two down the road when a better job comes along, who's going to get hired? The kid who coded for peanuts but got two years of experience, or the kid who waited tables and got zero relevant professional experience?
Only take the table-waiting job if you can accomplish more worthwhile projects on your own time, and have excellent documentation skills to prove what you did.
...
I have a bachelors and just got a master's degree. I have no real work experience other than teaching and helping with open source software. I just took a job
$55,000 US + Benefits on the East Coast
Not your exact case, hope it helps.
I know CAS (Computer Application Specialists) gives their entry level developers $50K a year, +- slightly. Other companies like IBM and Microsoft give significantly higher salaries.
I would think $45000 to $50000 depending on the type of work you are going to be doing is reasonable.
I've been programming etc for over 20 years and I could probably make more money by driving a truck; various trades such as plumbing, electrician, ...
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Next on slashdot: How do use wipe your ass?
I was hoping that the high level of skill required would account for something
A college degree does not confer skill. Skill must be demonstrated before it can be rewarded.
.@.
Salary ranges varies greatly depending on the location of your search. Here in Southern California, entry positions seems to start around $45K. This is for web application development - the field I am most familiar with. It's probably different for other kinds of development jobs. Salaries have gone down quite a bit in the past two years.
Congratulations on graduating, and good luck!
-B
out of undergrad in CS from NYU I was offered 62K in a NYC job (Bloomberg LP). I thought this was pretty high.
After finishing my masters in robotics from CMU, I hope to be making 75-85K. We'll see, but I expect this to be about right.
Clearly spending 2 years more in school will boost my salary more than experience would have. (maybe)
Want to make more? Learn specialized skills, get a higher degree, or spend more time looking.
www.kirigin.com
Robo-Blogs of the world: UNITE!
A lot of guys I know who recently(past 2 years) graduated with degrees in CS don't do programming work, if they even have jobs.
Anyway, if you're in the US, the Bureau of Labor Statistics has pretty much every little labor detail you could want.
Here are their stats on computer programmers. Remember, entry level means you start out at the low end, so depending upon which state and which company, figure $40,000 a year.
The key to the enjoyment of pop music is to replace any instance of "love" with "C.H.U.D."
If you're not part of the solution, there's good money in prolonging the problem.
Salaries vary very regionally, and also by industry sector. I can't comment on other sectors/regions, but the State government in Washington state pays entry-level programmers with bachelor degrees $2645 per month ($31,740 annually or $15.20 per hour) to start. That's for what is called ITAS 1 ("Information Technology Applications Specialist 1"). Here's the link to the page describing the position/job and salary information: http://hr.dop.wa.gov/statejobs/bulletins/CURRENT/3 8109rp.htm. Most state programming jobs in Washington are in the Olympia area, which is a pretty nice part of the state (IMHO). Don't know what current openings there are at the moment, however.
I truly don't know what waiters make (including tips), but I doubt that the pay goes up to $70K+ after several years of experience, like it can in programming. In Washington state employment, the top programming job classification is ITAS 6, which is paid $5813 per month, or $69,756 per year.
If you get into more specialized areas, such as a programmer working with things like PeopleSoft and SAP, the pay gets quite extravagant, I'm told.
Factoring in the trend in offshoring, however, and the picture may become bleaker for programming in general, although the government sector may be somewhat immune to that. At least I hope so. :-)
"The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance."
The first rule of job offers is that you never accept the first offer a company gives you. That amount is what they hope they can get away with paying you. If you think that they are serious about hiring you, then ask for a bit more.
First of all you are worth more than minumim wage. If that is all that is turning up by all means take it for now. Then my advice is to join an open source project and make some serious contributions. Show that you have the skills both from an employment gig and an open source environment....just my two cents
what?
I started at $38k/year while I was still in college. I'm now up a little past $42k after a year. This is what my company (a Fortune 500 company) would pay for an entry level programming position right out of college.
... is *hard* work.
The point is, take a job that will be more enjoyable to you, either in terms of work hours or exciting projects. That will make more difference, I think, in the long run, than salary.
Good luck.
Adam
Where are you applying?
What are your limitations for relocation?
What school gave you this degree?
What specialization is your degree in?
What job posting are you replying to?
What does your resume look like?
How are your interviewing skiils?
* NOTE : none of these have anything to do with "entry level programmer" generalizations. Methinks your issue is not the topic but the delivery.
If you're starting out, I have bad news - given the decreases in salaries for people who've had 10 years experience, I hate to say this but the timing of your graduation is QUITE BAD. Offshoring fueling the latter along with the economic downturn and I don't expect things to improve much.
I have over 10+ years in tech, worked at a major software company and left for the dot bomb craze. I gave up lots of salary for equity and while the company was profitable and public, the market tanked a mere few weeks before my first vesting period. Even if it hadn't the AMT tax would have probably screwed me over anyway.
Since then I've worked some side stuff, waited tables, had the stupidity to try to sell cars and only in the last few months have things returned to what I call "normal."
Never mind that I worked on shrink wrapped products, developed a source level debugger, have had lots of experience on both Windows and UNIX. It all didn't matter to anyone.
I have to say, despite returning to a salary level that bests my previous best. I'm a changed person. Save, save, save.
IT blows. That's my 2 cents. HR people simply care about the last six months and are clueless if you are well ahead of your peers. They don't have the capacity to make this judgement.
You could tell them you architected (as an example) SSH and Kerberos have encryption patents and they might ask some stupid arse question like "Do you know JavaScript?"
Anyone starting school today... my advice is forget tech. If you feel it in your soul (like you should do it), fine, go to a tech school like DeVry, start making money and save it. Going to traditional 4 year programs for CS is an utter waste of time. Way too much change and like I said it's always about what you did in the last six months.
$175K-$200K per year with a high school diploma and %10 more for each year of education after that. Don't take anything less than $150K a year to start.
You've been offered a job and you're worried about the pay? It's better to be worried about finding a job, which is the bit you've already achieved. America (and indeed Britain) is in that all-too-familiar position where the number of CS graduates outguns the number of CS vacancies, so you can't expect to be paid too much until your name is equated with redhotness. Worse still for CS grads (at least this is how it works in the UK) is that many employers in the IT sector don't want CS grads to fill their computing positions, they want mathematics, science or even classics grads who they see as having more problem solving skills. As one employer said to me when I was starting at University (physics, before you ask) it's easier to teach a thinker to program a computer than it is to teach a computer programmer to think.
So you start at the low end of the pay scale. That's not so bad. In a few years the waiter will still be earning the same salary when you're on a bit more.
.
You can search through the results of their ongoing salary surveys based on area of the country. The information you get there will surely be better than single anecdotes from Slashdotters.
All in all, things aren't looking too good for entry level programmers compared to just a few years ago. You're probably a leg up on most of your competition just by having two offers.
My first job out of school paid peanuts, but within three months they saw that I could work harder and smarter (with little supervision) than anyone else.
I'd say, don't worry about your first wage being low if gives you a quick chance to prove yourself and build a resume. I would suggest focusing on jobs that gave you exposure to the most technologies, opportunities, etc. Don't look for the "life career" straight away.
Murray Todd Williams
How many people graduated with you? How many other schools graduated as many, or more people at the same time? How many programming jobs do you think exist? Granted, this number is growing, but still. As an electrical engineering major, I can tell that at least half the people that graduate aren't worth having in a company. They just don't retain knowledge and apply it well. Why should a company assume you're worth more money? You're going to have to prove yourself to them. For all they know, you're the guy like my lab partner, who did no design on a major project, built none of it, and wrote 4 of a final report when I asked him to write six. Of his four pages, I totally rewrote one, made him rewrite one, and had to correct all his others. One of the mechanical engineers that I work with has a resume that would impress people at NASA and JPL, but in reality, he knows very little. Considering the number of graduates who know very little these days, I think you should be happy for a job. Besides, you ought to take one based on what you'll be doing, not so much how much money you'll make. With a CS degree, those dreams of high salaries you had going into college faded while you were there. Work your way, and be happy with it.
On an interesting note, all of my friends that graduated from EE are making ~$50K. (funny thing is half of them are doing coding jobs and I've seen the quality of their code... it ain't a pretty picture :-X )
It seems like to me IMHO that most companies are getting MIS and Computer Science majors confused...
..if you're a "newbie" in the business. Ofcourse, it all depends on where you decide to work.
Now, I'm from Norway, and I can only tell you what it's like over here. And keep in mind that I don't have any education except high school.
I've been hired at various places so to speak constantly since '96, but all employers seems to offer about the same amount in salary.
In my first job, back in 1998, I earned 200,000 NOK (about $29,000) which is very low. I'm currently making 320,000 (about $46,000) which is reasonably better, but about $15,000 lower than my colleagues with an education.
As I understand it: Over here, a "freshman" may expect 300,000 (~$43,000) NOK at first, then gradually crawling up towards 400,000 (~$58,000) NOK. If you're long enough in the right business, you may even expect 500,000 NOK ++.
Hey, boss, you reading this?
www.6502asm.com - Code 6502 assembly or.. DIE!!
There is always the option of going on Survivor, or try to be the next Apprentice. :-/
Check a recruiting/job search site and run one of their salary calculators. That will give you a rough estimate of the going rate in your area.
In NYC, 70K will get you about as far as 30K in some rural areas. So, salaries will tend to fluctuate depending on the local cost of living...groceries, gas, rent and insurance can be wildly more expensive in urban areas than in the sticks.
Also depends on the amount of locally available talent. Try as I might, I couldn't break into the very tough Boston IT market back in 2000. I suspect all those MIT folks might have had something to do with that. I had to settle* for the DC area, which has some fine universities, none of which are famous for their IT programs.
It also depends on whether you, like me, have a degree in some unrelated major and are trying to h4xx0r your way into a cush programming job. And it depends on exactly what "software engineer" entails...are you going to be coding missle-control microchips in assembly language, or writing HTML-based web applications?
My salaries have fallen in the 60-70k range over my brief (4-year) career. Some jobs have had more vacation, some have had better 401k plans, some have had more attractive locations, some have had nicer people, and some have had more demanding schedules.
I would say that anything over 50K is probably a reasonable starting salary, from my perspective, and assuming that you are probably going to be working someplace in a major metropolitan area and for a company of significant size and influence.
I had an offer for 32k when I graduated; I was insulted and I didn't take the job. Luckily I found a much better offer elsewhere. Don't sell yourself too short. If you have talent, tenacity, some social skills (you don't come off like a neanderthal cave-coder in interviews), and a lot of luck, you will do just fine.
Also, if you find that you are getting shut down on a lot of offers, take some time and brush up on your skills. $150 of O'Reilly books saved my career a few years ago.
Good luck!
*At the time, I thought of it as "settling." Now, I love it here.
--- Where's my car, and why are these grass stains on my pants?
It's impossible to answer this without taking into account what part of the country (and which country) you're in, what kind of metro area the company is in, what industry you're going to be working for (aerospace, education, health care, textiles, etc.) My salaries have been so far below the low end of what national surveys report, that I used to laugh/cry whenever I looked at one. I actually made more per hour delivering newspapers (an easy route in my neighborhood) than I did in my day job as a network administrator. But that's because I've been working in academia and non-profits in inexpensive parts of the Midwest. Your mileage will vary.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
1) Where are the offers, and more specifically what is the cost of living there? I would expect a job to pay around 1.5-2x as much in the Bay Area as in Tucson for the simle reason you'll need the extra money to have the same quality of life. Consider what it costs to get a house, go out to eat, etc where the job is. If it's cheap, don't expect to make as much. I mean in Tucson, you can get a 2000 square foot house for under $150k which works out to payments of under $1000/month. It's hard to impossible to get even a studio apartment in some cities for that price.
2) What will the workload be like? If this is a company that believes in supporting it's employee, a 40 hour work week, and low stress, that is a factor. Don't sell yourself short on quality of life, but realise that less work makes you less valuable and thus will pay less.
3) Benefits. Look at what the company offers you in other benefits, those all factor in too. If they pay your health insurance for you, that's something to factor in, it's not cheap. Same with other kinds of insurance. Make sure you are comparing the total amount you are compansated (as in how much they pay you and how much you'd have to pay for the benefits if they didn't) not just the amount you take home.
4) Vacation. What's their policy on that? If the company offers good amounts of off time, that's something that's nice. Also generally reduces your pay though.
5) Public or private? If you work a government job, it'll generally pay less than the private sector. The compensation is that most tend to have excellent benefits, plenty of vacation time, and little to no overtime.
So look at the area you'd be living in, what kind of buying power you'd have with your paycheck, and what they offer in additonal benefits that you'd need to purchase yourself if they didn't. Then decide if what they are offering you is reasonable.
Also consider what kind of learning experience it will be, what kind of industry connections it will give you, and what kind of advancement oppertunities you'll have. If a job pays less, but puts you in the position to advance quickly and to a high level, while learning valuable skills, it's probably worth it.
So don't sell yourself short, but don't get caught up in the dollar amount you take home.
It proves you can make it through college. All you have is a piece of paper and quite possibly a load of debt you will never be able to repay.
it really depends on cost of living in your area. if you live in central pa I'd say between 30 and 45 thousand. I would imagine it is higher in high cost areas like San Jose and NYC.
Ordinary Starting for a CS Degree depends on your location. If it is in NYC area then you can get paid 50-70k starting. Up here in Albany average starting is 30k-35k Which is about 1/2 the price of a hundred miles away. The best way I found out the good wage for the area is look for a nice not lavish but nice 1 Bedroom and a Den or a 2 bedroom apartment in the area. Take the rent of that apartment multiply it by 52 then you got your good salary you will probably get. Jobs in Computer Science are no longer the glamor jobs of the 90's they are now the average jobs which the pay is about on par with a full time math teacher (maybe a little less)
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I dont know, I started i programming in 95 at 45k a year with no school or previous experience (in a work enviroment) Heck I was a plumber and pipefitter before I decided to be a programmer, actually I had little choice (sons health issues and bringing home hae A C B or CMV home made the doctors very nervous)
I have never hired anyone at under 40 to start if they were good and knew their stuff AND their limitations. I made it a point to never hire anyone with a degree, I feel that 9 times out of 10 even working with them is a problem. Back in 98 or so I was lead developer of about 20 guys at the time, the HR gal hired this dipshit with a degree, I told him to do a task and do it this way. four hours later I stopped and asked wherre it was , it was 20 minutes of code at most. He said It cannot be done that way it will not work , frustrated I said here and leaned over him coded it ran it and tried to show him at which point he turned his head from the screen and stated, it does not work, it cannot work I was taguht in school it would not work if it was done that way therefore it does not work. All the while it was running on his screen. I was purple with anger and fired him a week later. After that I made it a point to hire guys who had REALLY fought their way up through the trenches like I had, I fin them better problem solvers and MUCH more open to alternative ways of doing things. College is for people who cant lear on their own (Doctors being an exception)
So with a degree I would pay would pay low 30's which would take into account you would need a significant amount of retraining, if you didn have a degree 40's . UNLESS you were a worse typist than I am them maybe even 50's , as we all know poor typing skills show a gited programmer
I just did a google for programmer salary. A 25th percentile proigrammer in the US makes 42K/yr. Ther appear to be thousands of worthwhile resources on the web to answer this question. Why ask Slashdot?
I'm only a college freshman and im already fearing the job market I will be going into... Although I go to a well-known school (NYU) (not majoring in CS though)... I'm still afraid of the every growing competition... Since I haven't done research on any past generations... but it seems as if Generation Y is flooded with over-achieving students... When applying for a job an average joe with a BA or even MA will only get enough necessary to live (and that's if you're lucky)... I fear for my generation... and myself...
I made 28K on my first job as Jr. Programmer.
In 1995, I was making 55K
2001, I was making $60 per hour
2002 60K per year
2004, 400 a week with unemployment.
The look on my wifes face when I told her we were going to have to move into one of her moms houses, priceless.
For everything else, there's Bahnglor express.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
while it seems like the dotcom craze is over, we are really still at the dawn of what the internet and personal computers can do... it will be decades before this tech has realized it's full potential and the arc of innovation wanes and computers/ internet become just another commodity like the cotton gin or the radio
therefore, within the span of your lifetime, there is much impact you can make on this world, personally, and of course, financially
so after you come home from your thankless soul-sucking underpaid 9-5 existence, don't forget to tinker with the very sparks of imagination which got you interested in computers in the first place
someone reading slashdot right now, either you, me, or someone else, will probably be making a contribution to mankind in the field of computer science which will forever alter humanity, and perhaps make that person fabulously rich... but that's an afterthought
your prime motivation should be happiness, not money
no six figure slary is worth self-hatred
don't give up on any of the things that got you interested in computers in the first place just because you can't seem to find your happiness in a cubicle
you will never be happy working for someone else, you will only be happy pursuing your own interests
so think of your job as something to keep your brain cells well-exercised, and something that keeps food in the refridgerator, and therefore you won't look to your salary as some end-all justification for your existence
your job will forever be little more than just a means to an ends, unless you yourself are deadset on making your life little more than what your employer decides you are worth, and that would be a sad day indeed
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
While you could make more waiting tables, as you say, you won't be gathering experince in the process. I'm a sysadmin... have been for 10+ years. It was around year 2 or 3 of experience that I was able to make a salary jump... actually, right after year 3 of experience, my salary doubled. Before being a sysadmin, I drove two trucks. Driving tow trucks paid better. But had I kept driving tow trucks and not moved to computers, I'd be making roughly 25% more now than when I started. And therw wouldn't have been a "3 year, double my salary" opportunity. Sometimes the temporary sacrafice has the long term payoff.
BTW and FYI: you're in a very competitive market right now. Many development jobs are going overseas and there are a lot of developers with a lot more experience than you have that are looking for work right now. Many have been out of work so long, they'd gladly take the meager offers you're getting. Consider yourself lucky and take an offer. If a better one comes along within 3 months, take it.
go on job search sites like monster and look for an "average wage" where your job will be. remember that getting paid an extra $5000 a year probably doesn't mean jack if you have to live in San Francisco.
I'd say $45-55k range seem about right for most cities, but also be sure to note vacation days, healthcare, etc -- you don't want to work 350days/yr so you can buy that new plasma tv
hope that helps
What is really frustrating is that my girlfriend earns more than me. She just started to work last year, and I have five year experience. Oh, and no, she's not some bigshot business girl or even a Doctor or whatever might make a lot of money. She's a kindergarden teacher.
IT is going down the drain. If you can avoid working in this sector, do so...
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
...but what kind of upgrade path is there?
Get a low-paying IT job in a big corporate, then impress with your skills(z), and you can earn huge bucks in almost no time flat...
Earn slightly more as a waiter, and you'll stay a waiter for the rest of your life...
I've been on both sides... trust me, the waiting-on-tables path sucks...
This sig left unintentionally blank.
Assuming you are single, and just out of collge, and still willing to share an apartment to keep costs down, take any job offering $30k or more, AND is something you are interested in or could see a future in. In other words don't get hung up on salary alone, but consider what you want to do with your career and what you want to do. If you don't know exactly what you want to do with your skills, consider jobs that might offer a variety of opportunity. Remember, like any job, there will be pluses and minuses and you might have to reall look to see what the opportunities are.
As for the money, remember the dot com days are over, and paying your bills while getting your career going is not a bad way to start in the "real world".
Actually, IIRC in the Clinton years you were bringing people here and paying them a real salary. Now that the keys to everything have been given to the Skull and Bones old boy network cabal, it's shaft the little guy every which way to sunday so that you can buy a second Bayliner.
The economy and job prospects sucked under the first George Bush, don't forget (wasn't big oil gouging us for ridiculous gas prices at the same time?). I'm not a left winger, but I'm intelligent enough to learn from history.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
>$0
do you have any openings*?
*A curse on the first person who replies with a link that has the letter c and x anywhere near the word goat.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Look in regional newspapers. Anecdotal online information will be less valuable. The larger newspapers are not necessarily better than the smaller ones. For example, the Orange County Register (OC is south of LA) often has a better selection than the Los Angeles Times and this includes listing far outside of OC. Perhaps this has to do not only with tech people working in OC but also living there. Something to keep in mind.
See this CNN Article on Most lucrative college degrees
Remember these are average salaries. Some people make more, some people make less. I believe what you make out of college has a lot to do with the internships you did while you were in college. (You did do internships right?)
Here's another useful tidbit of information: Recent Forrester studies showed "word of mouth referrals" accounted for 62% of hires, while only 4% of people found jobs through high profile internet job sites (eg. Monster & Dice)
A bit of advice for anyone in the job market: The more people know what you can do, the more opportunities/options you'll have when you're looking for a new job.
Good Luck!
I'm going to try to start my business designing web pages for money. I realize it's a crowded market, but I am hoping my expertise will put me above the curve. While designing websites, I am going to work to develop my products. I am interested in creating productivity software, whether they be websites or desktop apps.
I think it will take quite a while to be able to do what I want to with applications, which is to make moving between your own computer and other computers more seamless. In the meantime, I will just have to hone my database skills.
If it doesn't work, I think potential employers will give me points for trying. If nothing else I will have more skills to put on my resume.
If you think your employers are cheapskates, I would steer clear of them. Using your full abilities, and getting paid less than what you deserve, is demoralizing. So is working for crummy, mean-spirited bosses in fucked-up corporations. I worked at Wal*Mart and Target for a while, and it royally sucked. I would have been better to have just stayed unemployed until I cold find a better job.
They can suck you into the 80 hour week at any salary. Likewise, many $50k plus people are adept at avoiding the 80 hour work week. You only get 45 hours of work done in an 80 hour week anyway.
I really would be looking more at the company and projects than the salary. If the company is full of people making good money, then you will likely get good raises.
Employers look for progression in your salary. Going in low and getting a good raise in the first year can really jump start a resume. Leaving without a good raise makes you look bad.
So, if it looks like a company pays well, then going in low is a wise choice.
After graduating with a B.S. in computer science and a minor in math the search for work began. I soon found a small company who needed help with their servers and offered a step ladder approach to salary.
I would start off making around 16 dollars for the first 6 months after which I would be moved to 32 dollars and hour. And within two years promised that I would be up to 45 as lead programmer and network administrator. This seemed to be reasonable as the company wanted to prove my skills. After setting up their small business servers, which has been hacked by a former employee. Correcting multiple problems with routing and storage organization, I was asked to do a network assessment. I pointed out the weakness in their network design, security, and general optimazations that could be made. My employer had me implement these ideas.
Two weeks before my pay raise to 32 an hour I was asked to do another report on the electronic service. At which time I submitted the report about the improved network security and optimizations that had been made. I was fired the next day. Another employee called me later that night and told me that the business had done this multiple times now.
My advice for college graduates is be careful what you wish for. Sometimes less pay is better than being screwed by someone. or working for an asshole.
I have since gone on to complete my masters degree in computer science, opened my own business and to say the least am doing very well.
If your that talented go do it yourself. If not take the 10 an hour and shut up.
A friend of mine finished his 4 year computer science course here at the University of New Brunswick in 2003, and after sending out resumes all summer long, finally settled on the best offer he got that didn't require him to move an unreasonable distance (for him). He landed a job at a company in Quebec City, about 6 hours away. The job he took had him building webpages, and they were paying him 8$ an hour to do it. That's canadian, remember. It was the most attractive option available to him, unless he was willing to move to Vancouver for an extra 3$ (he wasn't).
It took me 2 years in a kitchen to work up to 8$, and that was 5 years ago. He was so embarrassed about his wage he wouldn't even tell me himself, and after 6 months on the job the company declared bankruptcy, stiffed him on his last 6 weeks of work, without giving him any kind of notice of what was happening beforehand. He still hasn't gotten paid for those 6 weeks yet, even after multiple court sessions.
I guess the point is, even though he wasn't raking in the dough, reliability in an employer should be at least as high on your priority list as a high salary. If a strong business is offering you a low wage and no one's putting up a better offer, take it. At the very least you'll get job experience until a better offer comes along, and that's something all those degree-holding waiters won't have.
I've also been trying to find starting salaries for several established companies. Where on the net can I find this information (for free)?
:-(
Does anyone know what the starting salary is at Cisco? HP (California site)? Intel? Microsoft? Sun? Consulting companies (IBM included)? I'd appreciate responses from anyone that knows... even anonymous responses!
Meanwhile, here are a few facts and figures I've gathered through some research. Can anyone confirm these numbers? Caveat lector, as these are _all_ from sources whose accuracy I cannot ascertain:
IBM pays about $55K on average, starting off. However, they have many sites, so it would vary.
HP (in Texas) pays about $50-55K starting for technical positions.
Accenture non-consulting roles start out in the mid/high 20's for technical positions, from what I've heard. On the bright side, these jobs are unlikely to be outsourced, because you can't get much cheaper than that!
I've also heard that Intel pays very well starting off. But I've been unable to get a number for them
The thing that really most matters your experience and/or your domain knowledge. If nothing else "real world" experience implies that you're generally familiar with the tools used by development teams that you wouldn't necessarily have needed while you were in college - thinks like source control, and bug/change request systems that simply weren't important for the projects a lone student (or even a team of students) would have used. These tools and habits aren't necessarily difficult, but they do come with time.
Domain knowledge about general ins & outs, terminology, best practices etc. of an industry is also something that employers look for.
Keep in mind that unless you can prove you have either of these, perspective employers are looking at paying you and receiving limited returns whilst you acquire "on the job training".
PS. ...and no employers really don't value "keeping abreast of industry trends" (reading /., the Reg, &c)
credo quia absurdum
Maitre'D in a good restaraunt can net over 100k - it's an esteemed job many people work years for. And think about this: Rocco can't outsource his wait staff to India, china, or anywhere else...
Count yourself lucky to even have one offer let alone 2. I know several experienced software engineers who are either out of work or working for much less than they made a few years ago.
Given the downward pressure that offshoring is having on wages it's not surprising that your offers seem low.
of what my Dad told me about the CAD/CAM developers. The CS people did a lot of the software, but when it came to the actual engineering calculations, the company hired mathematics doctoral students because they were the only ones who knew the math and had the programming skills. They were cheap too because they were still students.
I went to school (MIT) in the late 80s and early 90s and earned bachelor's and master's degrees in computer science. I did the internship there (VI-A if that means anything to you) and earned 14-17 per hour as an intern before graduating. I helped start a company while an undergrad and was making 50+ an hour (100k+ a year) upon graduation. My pay peaked at around 400k-500k per year including salary and profit sharing in the late 90s. It has come down now to around 200k per year. I never assumed the high pay would continue, so having it come down hasn't been a problem.
I am fortunate now to have the freedom to help start new companies that don't necessarily pay any money at first. I do feel for those graduating into the current job market. It is the same in any industry: those who are highly skilled and intelligent are in high demand and those who are recently graduated without a track record have trouble finding even a relatively low paying job in their field.
Sorry I don't have any advice, just a story to tell.
However...
If you set yourself up as a business, do something as an Open Source project, create a web-site for it and get the project listed on FreshMeat.net, then you can list it as part of your professional experience.
I havn't earned any money for far too long, but, as a self-employed person trying to start a business, I have started www.chkdb.org and www.mcov.org, both with websites and both listed on freshmeat with a few subscribers. These projects are listed on my resume as part of the work done by my (unsuccessful) business.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" -- HST
In short, as long as the salary offer isn't an obvious attempt to screw you (look at both your offers and also ask classmates with offers from other companies and see if they're within, say, a 10% margin), you should be OK. Dive in on your first job, learn everything you can, get started on that graduate degree. In two years take a look around and see if your salary isn't up to par. Go to your manager, make a case on all the fine work you've done, and see what they can do. If you get no action by the tiem you get the graduate degree, start shopping around.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Figure out how much you know you are worth. (Be reasonable)
Divide it by 2.
Don't accept less than that.
Coding Blog
A CS degree without additional certifications and qualification is just a degree. It is a more vocational degree, so the employer can assume that you have the ability to run machines, but that is about it. And since you did not mention any professional work, the employer will also have to assume that you will have to be trained in the basics of business, and the reality of meatball programming, which will significantly cut your efficiency for the first couple years.
Then there's the fact, that like so many other professions, CS has been overrun by people who have little interest in doing a good job programming, but simply want to get rich. Employers no longer have to cater to such people, so, like most other professions, the pay is set at a reasonable rate, but not so high that you have employees who merely want to get paid incredible amounts of money for doing not much of anything. Such positions are reserved for the elite and their brethren.
I will get flamed for this, but I would say anything approaching $15 an hour, or 30K a year, is good(and 25K very acceptable, depending on geograph), especially if the insurance and retirement is also good. As a young ex-student retirement and insurance should be a big concern. Continuous health insurance starting when you don't need is critical. Also, saving for retirement is something that all of us wish we hard stated, and not spent, when we were just lads. Also remember that any employer is going to invest tons in you with in kind services. You will get much more out of the first few years of work that just money.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
These are usually by state and/or county, but you can sometimes get these reports for the larger metro areas as well. The reports are normally free, or you just pay for postage.
This is your first stop in salary negotiations.
UIUC (number 4) posts this publicly on their site (hint: the numbers listed are monthly salaries)
For the 03-04 class a CS grad with a BS got offers averaging $4037/mo = $48444/yr.
--
Kyle
http://www.kylefreeman.com
How about salary negotiation?
I am also graduating in May with CS&E, and have no idea how to negotiate a starting salary.
I start at $55,000 and see what people say.... So far I haven't been turned down. Am I asking too little?
Maybe some insight from seasoned professionals that have dealt with this before....
Good luck!
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
I've been out of school for 2 yrs, so some might disagree.....
Hold out for a job in an industry you want to be in. Pay is secondary unless you have kids and stuff - it's better to get your foot in the door somewhere that does interesting development on projects you want to work on.
If you take some job admin'ing windows boxes for the Arkansas Bureau of Indian Relations, it's easy to get pigeon-holed. Along comes a wifester, and suddenly its hard to uproot everything and take a risk with a cool startup or consulting firm.
My advice: don't worry about a few dollars, go out there and get the most interesting job you can, regardless of location. Go balls to the wall for a few years, learn your trade, and have a good time.
Interesting/hard jobs in technical fields generally pay good, but you will never be the best or make the best money unless you are excited and interested in getting out there and writing code.
"If you think you have things under control, you're not going fast enough." --Mario Andretti
if you are in the US.
Go to your local employment dept.
They should have many programs to help you, like resume writing, interviewing techniques, how to negotiate, anf they are free.
You can also get a list of average salaries for your area, as well as have networking opportunities.
Also, decide what is important to you:
What your are programming
or
the company you work for.
Now, lets say what you want is a large company, where you will work a pretty regular scedule, 40-50 hours a week.
Call the HR dept. for the appropriet company, and ask for an Informational interview' with a manager in the appropriet dept., or with an HR person who deals with the IT staff.
When you get one, show up.
you are not interviewing for a job..directly.
Ask questions like, what skills are they loking for. what would a Jr. programmer expect to make, there turnover rate, etc.
Then send them a thank you card.
Follow up a month later.
If this doesn't get you an interview, it will at least give you information you can use to direct your career.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Two dollar!!!
Two dollar!!!
Two dollar!!!
Don't Ask Questions. I don't know the answers and even if I did I wouldn't tell you.
The boom is over and IT is now filed under "Support". $36,000 to $45,000 tops.
It's known as: self-employment.
That's right: living in your mother's basement for one year scraping things together with a pizza delivery boy's wages while you scrape together your application. Come on, if you really expect to cut it as a software dev, you've got to be able to write one chunk of code that makes you and makes it onto your resume. Then you sell it and do it again.
That's self-employment as a contract programmer, and there's money to be made there.
Reinvent the wheel only at either a lower cost, greater effectiveness, or your own personal enrichment and satisfaction.
My offers have been 70-80k/y for software development. I would hope a college student would get at least 50-60k.
Do you mean a BSc. in Computer or Electrical Engineering, or a BSc. in Computer Science.. Starting salaries in Canada have averaged around 50k for engineers in the embedded field, maybe a little less, maybe a little/lot more depending on where you live. It goes up from there depending on options and the like. You can still find work without much effort if you are skilled.
Same rates for VHDL / FPGA hardware work (programming). OS level applications programming I don't go near anymore unless it's one-off custom stuff. Device driver work is well paid still.
Controls system programming (ladder logic, plcs..) makes a little less - 38-40k starting usually, up from there.
If you have a CS degree right now things aren't so rosy in Canada. I know several CS people looking for work; there isn't any, and in my experience, it's easier to get employed with a Mech/EE/CompE degree than a CS ticket right now, although others experience may vary. I put the blame on Universities for devaluing a BSc. CS during the boom. Doesn't matter what you want to do in engineering, you still gotta pass third year calc and intro dynamics. Mmm, spinny f=ma.
..don't panic
that compliments CS you may do better salary-wise and be more competitive in the market. The days of being able to just ride on the CS degree are over. Employers are looking for someone with some other domain expertise (physical sciences, mathematics, biology to name a few) to which they can apply CS techniques.
Why in fact, if you have strong math/OR skills along with your CS degree, why not send me your resume? We are a company that pays well, are employee-owned, offer stock options, annual bonuses, and annual co. trips to exotic locations. We are looking for people interested in developing software to make decisions under uncertainty. The work is in Java and requires the ability to work independently on the cutting edge of CS/math theory. Northern VA location.
jim dot nolan at dac dot us
Only a non-educated boss like you would base his whole opinion on all college graduates based on one negative experience.
College isn't just about a degree, it is about overcoming challenges. You could take a full load every semester, for 40 years, and withdraw from every course. You would still be more open minded and enlightened, even if you learned nothing, than stopping education at 18.
Cover your eyes and click this link!
As a student coming out of a school in the Washington DC area, I can tell you without a doubt that people who work for the US Government do not have to worry about outsourcing.
I'd say the average pay for students coming out of school looking for work is between 55k and 65k.
Note the 'looking for work' part. Most CS people here are staying in for their masters or (chuckles) going to law school.
Companies are starting to hire more and more, but it's still a little dicey out there.
for me too - I'd love $384k per year too...
I am also persuing a degree in ComputerScience. I am working on a combined Honours with Computer Science and Philosophy, but am planning on getting a Master's or PhD. I was wondering about how much does having OSS development on your resumé improve your chances? Does it count for anything in the 'real world'? Do employers look at it as 'real experience' like as if I had been been employed? Really what is it all worth? For anyone hiring what are you looking for? Would say that a Philosophy degree brings a little something more to the table (I'm taking philosohy because I enjoy it and find it more intellectually demanding than under-grad CompSci, not for monetary gain, but I do figure it should at least show that I am a flexible thinker)? How about non-CS job experience?
Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
There are good jobs out there, but you really do have look for them. I'm graduating with a Masters, and I have (thank God) a $70k job waiting for me.
But, I really had to dig to find it. My background is in Machine Learning/Datamining, and my general job search wasn't yielding results. So I went back and visited many of those machine learning community websites I frequented for my research, and applied to the jobs on the job sections of those sites. That was where I started getting interviews.
Now my job was originally for a PhD, but since my Masters experience closely tracked with what they wanted, they reduced the salary a little and gave me the job as a Masters.
My advisor said that the economy is bad, but no student of his has gone without a job for more than 6 months.
I guess my point is twofold:
1) You need to learn where and how to look effectively leveraging your background and skills
2) You need to specialize and gain knowledge of one area, in this current situation, a Jack of all trades can be outsourced, but a Master of one is still hard to find.
My first job after college was under 30k a year. If you were offered under 24k a year, I might be sympatheic.
I am in a similar position, without the job offers though. One of the more interesting bits of advice I've received is to not settle for a starting salary that is too low. Your initial starting salary is something you'll be asked about when applying for future positions. It make take a few extra years to catch up if you start too low. With that being said the national average for a programming position out of college is around $45,000.
Unless you have waited tables .....
Please don't expose your own stupid ignorance with stating that you could make more waiting tables..I doubt especially with that attitude!
It snot your job to dispute your first job out of college salary..its your freaking job to accept the offer and use yoru free time to gain the skills your college shortchanged you on so that you can actually reach a position to actually command the respect required to neogiate a salary!
Don't Tread on OpenSource
(Scene: Four Yorkshiremen around a table, presumably in a house which belongs to one of them, chatting about old times.)
Yorkshireman I (Eric Idle): Very passable, this, eh? Very passable.
All: Ay, oh ay.
Yorkshireman II (Graham Chapman): Nothing like a good glass of Chateau de Chasselet, eh, Josiah?
Yorkshireman III (Terry Jones): Oh, you're right there, Obadiah.
Yorkshireman II: Ay.
Yorkshireman I: Who would have thought, thir'y years ago, we'd all be sitting 'ere drinking Chateau de Chasselet, eh?
All: Ay, ay.
Yorkshireman IV (Michael Palin): Them days we were glad to have the price of a cup of tea.
Yorkshireman II: Ay! A cup of cold tea!
Yorkshireman IV: Ay!
Yorkshireman I: Without milk or sugar!
Yorkshireman III: Or tea!
Yorkshireman IV: In a cracked cup and all.
Yorkshireman I: Oh, we never used to have a cup! We used to have to drink out of a rolled-up newspaper!
Yorkshireman II: The best we could manage was to suck on a piece of damp cloth.
Yorkshireman III: But you know, we were happy in those days, although we were poor.
Yorkshireman IV: Because we were poor!
Yorkshireman III: Ay!
Yorkshireman IV: My old dad used to say to me: "Money doesn't bring you happiness, son!"
Yorkshireman I: He was right!
Yorkshireman IV: Ay!
Yorkshireman I: I was happier then and I had nothing! We used to live in this tiny old tumble-down house wi' great big holes in the roof.
Yorkshireman II: House! You were lucky to live in a house! We used to live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no furniture, half the floor was missing, we were all huddled together in one corner for fear of falling.
Yorkshireman III: You were lucky to have a room! We used to have to live in corridor!
Yorkshireman IV: Oh, we used to dream of living in a corridor! Would have been a palace to us! We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish heap. We got woke up every morning by 'aving a load of rotting fish dumped all
over us! House, huh!
Yorkshireman I: Well, when I say "house", it was just a 'ole in the ground, covered by a sheet of tarpaulin, but it was
a 'ouse to us!
Yorkshireman II: We were evicted from our hole in the ground. We had to go and live in a lake!
Yorkshireman III: You were lucky to have a lake! There were 150 of us living in a shoebox in the middle of the road!
Yorkshireman IV: A cardboard box?
Yorkshireman III: Ay!
Yorkshireman IV: You were lucky! We lived for three months in a rolled-up newspaper in a septic tank! We used to have to get up every morning at six o'clock and clean the newspaper, go to work down at mill, fourteen hours a day, week in, week out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home, our dad would thrash us to sleep with his belt!
Yorkshireman II: Luxury! We used to have to get out of the lake at three o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of hot gravel, work twenty hours a day at mill, for twopence a month, come home, and dad would beat us around the head and neck with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!
Yorkshireman III: Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to have to get up out of the shoebox in the middle of the night, and lick the road clean with our tongues! We had to eat half a handful of freezing cold gravel, work twenty-four hours a day at mill for fourpence every six years, and when we got home, our dad would slice us in two wi' breadknife.
Yorkshireman I: Right! I had to get up in the morning, at ten o'clock at night, 'alf an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill and pay mill-owner for permission to come to work, and when we got 'ome, our dad would kill us and dance about on our graves, singing Hallelujah!
Yorkshireman IV: Oh, ay. And you try and tell the young people of today that, and they won't believe you!
All: No, no they won't!
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
1. Don't just consider the salary. Consider 401k matching, insurance (life and health), paid time off, and other benefits (my company has a pension plan).
2. Depending on your skills and experience, think $30-50k.
3. If you're near Baltimore (or south, or north of DC) and a US citizen, reply to this with your e-mail address and I'll get you an interview. We're hiring a lot of fresh outs and experienced professionals...software developers and system integrators. So many we can't get enough. Hmmm...I should put this fact in my sig...
If I were a starting programmer, I would try and find some great master to study under, the same way other artists do. My first choice would be Dan Bernstein.
Another way would be to go to India and work there for five years or so. Since that is where the global market value of programming seems to be set. If your expectations are any higher than that, then you are probably pricing yourself out of the market.
On the other hand, most programmers do very, very little, and take a very, very long time to do it, and complain a great deal in the process. If you were to be one of those rare, maybe even mythical, types that can write useful code and a commercially sensible timeframe, well, you should be paid whatever you want.
I've had this problem in my recent recruiting adventures. What I found to be the most correct assumption is that if you are looking for a simple programming job, it won't pay much.
If you search for a job as a software engineer (which you should be prepared for given a 4 year cs degree), the starting salary should be much higher.
I've recently interviewed for two positions at the same company. The software engineering position paid signifigantly better than the programmer and one of the recruiters and I joked about the likelyhood that the programmer would eventually get outsourced.
This seems to be a pretty common thread in American companies. Programmers, in the view of corporate America, add lines of code. Software engineers add value, and are much harder to repalce and ofter make much more. Who are you going to replace? Someone who writes codes ``head-down'' all day, or someone who designs the product, meets with customers, documents and eventually programmes?
I went to school for 3D Computer animation, pecame very proficient on SGI machines using Maya and I still a farkin' Waiter in an Italian restraunt paying a ton of Loans off. A college education seems to count for less if you're unwilling to relocate to a better job market.
I also happen to live in Barrow Alaska
"It's all just meme meme around here"
Not to be too much of a downer, but here's one for $70 a week - and you will find lower salaries than that posted on this site here
I graduated with a CS degree from Wisconsin back in '01. It took 10 months for me to get a job @ an equally low salary. The bright side of the story is that my salary has increased about 66% in 2 years - which I don't think is too unusual when you start low (under $30K). I wouldn't worry too much about it..if you got an offer in dollars & not in Rupees you're doin' just fine.
The starting salary for web applications development in socal is the low 40s. A good developer is worth much more but that kind of pay is usually justified by work history in addition to a degree. Also - a high salary is just one of many factors that should be considered - the opportunity to learn and advance yourself is more important IMHO.
USD 1500/day if you don't mind going to Iraq.
Maybe you can make more waiting tables than as an entry level programmer, but you have to consider advancement opportunities, too. When you are a senior programmer, 20 years from now, you'll be making a lot more than you would as a senior waiter.
Ahhh.. Look at the angry little CS students mod me down. I still won't hire you, losers.
In the law there is no overlap between theft and copyright infringement whatsoever.
then "entry level programmer" is an overstatement.
An employer is either paying for immediate results or potential. Designers and architects
carry around portfolios to show prospective employers -- why not programmers?
Sure, you can make more money waiting tables at the very beginning. The big difference is that after 2 years of waiting tables, you'll still be making about the same thing.
With your new degree and skills, you'll find that that your salary will go up very quickly in the first few years. So, take the best offer. (That doesn't mean take the highest offer. Take the offer that will look best on a resume.) Get to work, and you'll do well..
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
Exactly, it's not like they are THAT hard to find...
l larssense,00.html
For instance, in Australia:
Here's an EXCELLENT resource at... gee... the most popular job search site in Australia, took me all of 5 minutes to track down:
http://careerone.com.au/resources/index/0,8526,do
If you can't be bothered to look up these things, then I don't think you deserve to know... or get paid much.
If you actually studied hard, and know your way around, you should consider working up a portfolio. Most of the traditional creative arts require a portfolio. For years people saw computer science as an engineering-like process, and assumed a degree alone meant something. Actually, nowadays, a traditional engineering degree without a masters or PhD thesis doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot either.
But I digress. The point is it is extremely hard to tell how proficient a programmer is by simply talking to them. OTOH, five minutes browsing their source code tells you exactly what they know, and how they use that knowledge. Beware though; if you didn't actually learn anything in school, that too will show through like a sore thumb - if this is the case, avoid the source code and try to get the interviewer to talk about his kids.
Pick something random, peculiar, or fun. Try to do something that exercises all the areas you feel you are proficient in. Then write a simple program - a couple thousand lines is more than enough. If you're writing OO and use UML, consider adding that to the package. Same with unit tests, flowcharts, build scripts, or whatever else are the artifacts of your development process.
It has worked in my favour on job interviews, and I always appreciate when a candidate that I'm interviewing has something to show.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
Congratulations! It took a long time and hard work to get there. Unfortunately, times have changed since you entered college. So, yes! I will have fries with that.
where do you live ? if your in a major city and you want to own a home you are in the completly wrong market, you can't be in IT and live in a large city and own a home. only 2 out of 3 right now is good.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein
You confuse me. Which of the following are you claiming?
* You know "anonymous reader" personally, and are therefore able to comment on both his technical proficiency and his marketability when compared to 2-year college graduates.
* Having a CS degree automatically disqualifies him from having a high level of skill?
* Community college graduates are automatically (or likely to be) better qualified than graduates of a four year college?
* If an Indian can do it, it's not skilled work.
* You enjoy insulting people you've never met.
* You're jealous of people who get their questions on the front page.
Note: You didn't get modded down because of overly sensitive CS majors. You got modded down because your "advice" is either incoherently written, or simply gratuitously insulting. I haven't figured out which, but I'm leaning towards the latter.
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
Sadly you will get paid bugger all as a graduate, unless you are exceptionally good and can prove it (and get lucky).
:-)
Your next job will be better as then you'll have real world experience
I also wouldn't be afraid to tell an employer that the offer it made was below market value for the position. You will never have more bargaining power with an employer regarding your salary than you do before you accept the position. Don't forget - it costs employers $$ to recruit and interview. If you got an offer, the employer wants you and is most likely willing to pay a fair price for your services. The trick is making sure you know what a fair price is.
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
Here in Torreon, Coahuila. Mexico (North of Mexico), the average salary for a programmer (with a degree) is between $5,000 ~ $10,000 Mexican Pesos, that is $454 ~ $909 USD a Month.
In a Year that would be $5,448 ~ $10,909 USD
No, I'm not missing any zeros.
I (with a C.S. degree) am making exactly $8,939 USD a year.
Now, if you excuse me I'll go get a gun...
So, as one who has hired (and been hired) at a number of startups and medium size companies, I have a bit on insight into the dynamics of what salaries have been doing in the valley since 1996 (when I started at Netscape). I'm not so sure how the specific analysis applies elsewhere, but the general advice applies.
:-)
Basically things got out of control between 98 and 2001 as venture capital flowed into companies that were required to grow quickly by the venture capital. All of the good talent was hired quickly, and then some of the average talent was hired. All that was left was the basic low-no skill talent.
So, there was a situation in which it became difficult to find low-average talent, and our standard economic models tell us that when demand goes up and supply stays relatively stable (it takes a little bit of time to supply new IT/Developers) that the price per unit will go up.
And that's what happened. The market tried to correct, everybody came flooding into the valley (as evidenced by Traffic Jams, zero rental inventory and huge monthly rentals) and, in order to have any chance of holding onto employees, companies started increasing salaries.
Good employees had great salaries and average employees had salaries that they would never normally be able to earn as companies scrambled to bring on staff. Salary inversions happened all of the time as an employee who started at $50K/year doing desktop support was making $20K/year less than a guy who started a year later. Most companies leveled these off, bringing up the $50K/year employee to $70K which created even more pricing pressure on employees.....
And then the Bust in 2001 when Venture capital dried up, the stock market basically collapsed. Public companies could no longer do secondaries to raise capital and Private companies, well, they grew very, very slowly if at all.
Companies laid off employees by the thousands and people fled the valley. (As evidenced by vast rental inventories, much lower traffic on 880 and 101 and a 30-40% drop in the cost of rental housing). Salaries in some cases dropped (HP/Microsoft dropped by approx 10% in the valley) and in almost every case froze for several years for existing employees.
For new employees, it was (and still is) a totally different situation - Basically for every IT job there are about 100-200 applicants. Only the good ones get hired and their salaries are at a competitive level. A solid IT Desktop Support employee at a mid-level company can expect to make 96-97 salaries in the valley ($50K-$60K). Sysadmins with 8-10 years experience are making $70-$90K. Everything has cooled off and the employer is in the drivers seat again.
The good news is that Great Engineers (IT/Software Developers) are _always_ impossible to find in the valley, good/bad/otherwise. You basically have to steal them from another company in order to hire them as they don't typically come directly out of school. Their salaries haven't dropped at all (as their companies held onto them - Great employees are always the last to be laid off) at their current salary, or they made a lateral move (equal salary) to a new company if their previous company went out of business.
What this means for you - If you love the business ignore the salary - it means nothing in the first 3-4 years of your career. Absolutely nothing. Work for free if you have to. Focus only on three things:
o The Quality of the Job - What will you be doing, will you have the resources to do it, will you be given lots of authority and opportunity to do new things.
o The Quality of the Company. Does it treat it employees ethically, Is it well financed (!!!), does it have great management, do you have highly skilled coworkers who will cross train you/develop you.
o The Quality of the Opportunity - Is this company in a hot space, are they developing a great product, are they first movers in a cool new technology that will become a standard.
Everything else will take care of itself if you are passionate, skilled and focussed. Don't worry about negotiating/looking for a great wage/etc... That will take care of itself. I promise you.
Even if you do make less than a waiter for the first 18 months or so.
- Any Day above Ground is a good Day (Michael Rich, 1997)
If a signifigant reason you trained to be a programmer was the money, you'll almost surely be a lousy programmer and you'll be unlikely to make much money.
;)
I make good money as a programmer, but I started low ($30K in late '98). Though at the time that was actually a raise, the main reason I did it was because I just loved coding, solving problems in a practical way, increasing company efficiency, etc. Because of that I got promoted pretty quickly, and hired away once people who knew me needed someone with the skills.
I'm not saying I'm great -- but I do love what I do, and that is why I'm pretty good at it. I've never met any good coders who didn't have some degree of love for the work itself.
In other words, I'd probably still be doing this if I got paid less than a waiter. Which is why I'm paid more
Cheers.
Who has ever had to spend 3 whole minutes on Google to find an answer?
Another thing to find out is how many weeks paid vacation you get with a salary. And will you be allowed to take unpaid leave if you want more time off.
Also, how in demand are the jobs you are looking for? I have a friend working for Electronic Arts and he gets paid peanuts and works insane hours. The reason is that there are WAY more applicants interested in working in the game industry than positions available. Good old supply and demand will have an effect on salary.
I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
Now starting at a little over $60k programming at a place in the Seattle area. I have more experience than the average college grad though.
I went to a State College in Mass, and the foreign students paid 3 - 4 times what domestic students paid. Plus out of state students paid double what Mass students.
I have a very small mind and must live with it.
-- E. Dijkstra
And it's running out...
You might want to think about starting your own multinational corporation if you want to make real money.
pretty much the same as an entry level EE
in the US, 50k USD
in canada, 50k canadian $ with half of your money gone to government as taxes.
yes, i'm in canada.
my blog
And no, '4 years of college' doesnt prove you are worth anything. It proves you can learn, but not much more.
What an ignorant attitude!
If you manage to get two bachelor's degrees and a master's from a top-ten school in those four years it most defintely says something. (People acutally do it, but not me.)
I hate to break it to you but college IS work. Not all colleges are the same amount of work, but those kids at the top schools in their fields work HARD.
I wasn't handed my degree, I EARNED IT. I spent 4 years both competing with and working with students from all over the world and I worked HARD.
Getting a degree from a GOOD college shows not just that you're intelligent and can learn, but that you know how to work and stick with things.
Sure there are institutions out there who demand less of their students, but trivializing the importance of college is just plain foolish.
Do you think that faculty at any College is trying to turn out students who can learn and nothing else?
Do you actually think your workplace is somehow a more rigorous environment than say, MIT or Caltech?
Life is too short to proofread.
It's energizing core synergies.
Ask me about my vow of silence!
Stock options...
Perhaps we are in the wrong line of business. At least as an old hand I should always be able to earn a living maintaining old COBOL programs. Waiting tables, though, would definitely be more fun and possibly less demeaning too.
To seriously answer your question. For the first 2-5 years out of college look for jobs that broaden your experience in preference to jobs that pay well.
The most important question should be "how will this look on my resume".
The market should turn back up and its unlikely you won't move and get a big salary jump sometime in the next 3 years. So as long as you don't run into cash flow problems, investing in your future now should pay off nicely in a few years.
BTW, its always easier to get a job when you have a job than when you are unemployed!
Squirrel!
You may find Salary.Com useful. I find it useful when trying to determine median salaries.
Given the number of people that are still out of work in the IT field and those that are still getting laid off you are lucky to find 2 job offers. Granted I graduated a couple years ago, but only about 40% of my class got jobs in the IT field, and only a few got jobs programming. I opted for a management position in tech support, neither what I want or like, but it's good experience and now I'm graduating with a masters degree.
Just keep in mind most positions you are applying for you are probably, emphasis on the probably, not the top pick...
It is somewhat distressing that I have spent 4 years of college and years before that developing my programming skills. I am not trying to get rich, but I was hoping that the high level of skill required would account for something(no offense intended to waiters).
Dude, I totally feel your pain. Six figures just aint what it used to be.
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
I've seen data online that said that average salary for entry level software engineer is between 47-48K.
And yes, be thankful for those interviews and job offers. I've been out for 5 months and I've only been able to get one interview. All this rushing around to job fairs, phone calls, and online job searches at all the different companies is starting to really get me down since I'm not seeing any results. The one interview I did have went well, and I think I was in contention up to the end, but I got that "letter of regret" after a long while.
Don't take for granted those job offers. Even if it's not what you thought you would make it might be better to take it until something better comes along.
"Hard work never killed anyone." -- Some Dead Guy
A typical knownothing AC writes:
2) Get a Ph.D. Not really too hard, and can be fun if you figure out a program that lets you have fun and do useful work while you accumulate credit. The Ph.D. is a good ticket to a lot of useful things in the world (and useful people). Nice credential. Skip a Master's if you can. Not particularly useful, and often awarded as a booby prize to those who can't cut the Ph.D. program.
OK, genius, do YOU have a Ph.D.?
A handful of my friends have doctorates and every single one of them worked harder than they ever thought possible, and the degree took longer than they imaginged (since all were working full-time jobs). One likened it to pledging a frat, except the hazing went on for years.
All except for one got their Masters before entering the doctoral program -- they were not even CONSIDERED for the Ph.D. program without the Masters. The one person who DID get the Ph.D. without the Masters did so after working in the industry for over 20 years and getting a dozen patents along the way. (Yes, he went back to school and got the degree at the age of 50. Impressive!)
3) Get certified as a professional engineer. This also opens lots of doors that are otherwise closed. Just having the ticket tells people something about you.
Do YOU have a professional engineer license? Do you realize that you can't just apply for a PE like you'd do for a driver's license? You actually have to have a job in your field, working as a practicing engineer for some number of years before you're allowed to take the test.
Well, then just vote for Kerry and it will all be OK. If you believe Kerry won't make decisions based on special interest group contributions, then I've got a great bridge to sell you.
I am also graduating in May with a CS degree...
i have much experience including an internship and then 2 stays as a freelance worker at the same company (it is a huge company too)...
i will take any cs related job, salary doesnt matter, ill take anything above 25k... let me know...
(i am serious with this offer btw)
the job market sucks, be happy you have an offer for now, hopefully you will get good benefits and then stay there for a year or two and if no raise (or promise of one) try and find another job, and entry level job is all about benefits and getting some experience...
I live in a pricey part of the world where we interviewed an economist some time ago. The person was unfamiliar with the cost of living, so asked for a starting salary equal to 3x the average cost of a two bedroom apartment. We never hired the person (can't remember why) but I thought that was an interesting index, and probably a pretty good estimate of what the person was worth.
I also noticed that employers prefer mathematicians over CS people. But there is a problem when you use a mathematician to create software: The implementation. They might have wonderful theories, think about kickass algorithm, but IMO, the CS is the implementation specialist (Of course, like everywhere, there is a *lot* of bad CS people). Kickass class sets, data structures, efficient pointer manipulation.
:) ). And managers are NOT skilled to see the difference between efficient code and totally bloated code. Managers don't see why VB is evil.
Here in Quebec, people with high degrees in the IT didn't have any computer training prerequisite before starting their high degree training. Thus, they have as much, if not less experience with a computer than a CS guy.
In fact, I don't know a lot of mathematicians, but I've seen a lot of awful code made by programmers with a higher degree than mine (I'm a CS guy
Thus, even if I'm biased here, if I was a staff manager, I would prefer a very enthusiast CS guy to a high degree guy. And if I was a staff manager's boss, I would make sure that my manager has some computer skills before hiring IT people (enough skills to see the difference between good and bad code).
perception is reality
There's a difference between a software engineer and a programmer. You can go to trade school to be a programmer- maybe that's why you're seeing low offers. When I graduated (8 years ago) before the dot com boom, salaries were averaging just shy of $35k.
Try here
There's more to being a software engineer than just code slinging. If anyone tells you different, you probably don't want to work for them.
DISCLAIMER: This post was not checked for speling and grammar- if you complain- you're a whiner
In 1982 I made 16K working for the US government in small-town southern California, which was low but sustainable (I paid my own way and even invested a bit).
The clearance system sounds logical. It is not. It is completely arbitrary. -- John Bolton
Really, to a great extent, your salary doesn't matter. It's your attitude towards the salary that makes the difference. You can blow through $200K a year with only a bit more effort than blowing through $30K. If you're smart and keep your expenses down, in five years you could very well be better off financially than the guy who earns seven times as much, and lives like he does.
In my opinion, your first goal after getting a job should be to build up a buffer of about three months of your current salary. We've all read the Ask Slashdots: "My company is about to do something of EXTREME ULTIMATE EVIL! What do I do?" Somebody always advises that they quit, and someone else responds with, "Are you crazy? In THIS economy?" Which is a valid point. Point blank: this buffer represents control over your life that living month to month can never give you. It's also nice to have for other potential emergencies.
I'm not going to bore you with great Ramen Noodle recipes. Just take a look at your life, decide on some valid, long-term goals, and then structure your finances so that you're working towards them. It's one thing to have a fast car, trendy clothes, and a large apartment. It's another to have a crappy, reliable car, sturdy but boring clothes, a crappy apartment in a less-than-ideal neighborhood, and $20K sitting in the bank, waiting for you to start your own business.
In the end, you are the sum of the choices you make. You can either sit back and gripe about the insultingly low salaries being offered (though you have a right to be unhappy), or you can make the choices that will make you rich, happy, famous-in-the-serial-killer-sense, or whatever your ultimate goals may be.
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
Given the economy and your work experience, I would highly recommend considering TRADE rather than a pay salary. First of all, you will get the ink you need on a resume but depending on the field you choose there can be plenty of perks. For example, I started working for a pornographic web site right after getting my degree from a prestigious school online. I was given a a square meal (as much love-box as I could eat) and a roof over my head (but keeping it involves more sleeping around than sleeping). Money can't buy everything ... Well .. Unless you live in vegas. But money can't buy love because love means you can kiss on the lips too. You have to trade for that, and thats where you skills as a pornographic website operator come in handy.
In 1989, I was trying to break into the IT sector. Bear in mind, I did not have a degree at the time. I took a pay cut and went to work for the local community college computer lab to get "computer" on my resume. The lab paid $12K a year. I meet some part-time instructors and was able to get my foot in the door with the Federal Government. Started there for $20K as a DBA Trainee and left as a Senior DBA in 1997 making $48K. Currently, I average $98-100K. Not bad for a guy with a Associates Degree.
First off, go talk to those with CIS degrees. Few of them will have jobs. They are in one of the worse degrees possible.
....)? All these affect what happens to you.
Now as to your rate, that will depend on what school you went to, what your grades are, where you are applying to, and what the market looks like in that area.
At the current moment the market is saturated with lots of CS, EE, and CIS with good experience who are out of work and willing to work for about 50K (worse yet, there are a bunch more lay offs coming once the election is over; IBM, HP, and Sun are supposedly holding off doing layoffs, except that Sun is doing some up front). You are fresh out of school. You have no track record. How were your grades? 3.5 to 4.0? Have you taken your CS GREs and scored great on them? Is your school a true CS program (via either math or engineering background; emphasis on understanding the principles involved; typically you program in Java, C, C++; Software engineering principles?) or is it a CIS (emphasis on learning cobol, basic, how to install MS, how to install Novell, intro to accounting, intro to marketing, intro to
One idea for you is do some OSS code and show that you do know how to code. Use sourceforge. All these things help.
Finally, consider the idea of taking one of the jobs and then persuing a master. It will help.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I've been working as a programmer for two years now, have become the lead developer at an admittedly small company, and am the consensus most proficient and best-paid programmer among my immediate peers. I make 40k.
Programming is now a commodity. Sorry to say it, but if you chose your major based on the money you might make rather than interest in the topic, you chose poorly. With that said, if you demonstrate skill and amass some appreciative contacts you can make a great hourly rate doing consulting in the evenings.
Everyone hates Microsoft, but everyone would love to work for them
65k right out of college may of 2002 working at Siebel... laid off 2 months later.. 55k six months later and 20lbs lighter from stress of not having a job All I have to say is, I wish I was in the bay area...
I know that's a big range, but there is a big range of opportunities out there. Don't get too hung up on entry-level pay, tho. Get some good experience at a place that'll look good on the 'ol resume. Make sure you make enough to cover your bills and so you can save a bit. After you've got 5 yrs exp or so, if you don't suck ass, you can pretty much find a position that pays 6 figs. That's been my experience, anyhow.
Yeah, the .com period is over, but if you are good, you are sought-after and compensated.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
Gotta love a good misspelling now and then.
Maybe a little time spent on market research would have been helpful at some point over the past 4 years of your life. Not to be overly critical, but hey, the IT market has been in a decline (flaming death spiral) for quite a while now.
If you program, or system administrate, or database administrate, or whatever for the love of it; that's great. Stay in school or go into teaching. If you want an IT career to pay the bills, then you'd better move to India, reduce your engrish skills, and make your kids work at the shoe factory. Not sure how many ethnics I offended, but I hope it's a lot. [Activate pre-flame force field with modular variations: "Lighten up!"]
If you have a job offer, take it and keep looking . So what if you accept something today and change your mind (or get a better offer) between now and graduation. Afraid you'll burn a bridge? Not to bruise any egos, but they'll have already forgotten you exist before your letter hits the recycle bin. Besides, think anyone at that company will lose any sleep when the pink slips start flying and you're the newbie first in line to walk the plank? Forget it. They don't give two sh!tz about you.
Look out for number one! That's YOU!
This one gang kept wanting me to join cause I'm pretty good with a bo staff.
So maybe a Wisconsin grad isn't at a disadvantage compared to some Ivy Leaguer.
On the other hand my Ivy League diploma has gotten me job ofers before anyone looked at my transcript - not a pretty sight!
-John Van Voorhis
While games may not be your area of interest, Gamasutra does put together solid salary surveys.
In what location?
A good salary in Santa Rosa will not be the same as
a good salary in Pendleton Or.
Or Anchorage or Boloxi.
Yahoo's Neighborhood Profiles section, searchable by zip code, has lots of nice data if you're pricing a job.
Somewhere around $40K is good for a starting wage. It's tough to live off of but it gives a company a chance to try you out for size.
After 2 years you can job-hop for double pay and better benefits etc. or you might just get promoted internally. Either way, its worth it in the long run.
AF-Design, web development.
It all comes down to economics. When you first graduate and get a job, you are a burden on your employer. Your exeperience will mean that development time will likely be longer, and the likelyhood of errors and bugs will be much higher. Therefore, you will actually cost the company money.
As a software engineer, we develope a product which is in many cases, the only sourece of income. Executives, accountants, secretaries and all the other support staff still need to get paid, and the longer we take to make a product that can start getting money coming in, more money that will need to be spent to maintain all this support staff.
When I went out on site for support, I discovered that the company was chargine over $500/h for my time. I was seeing less than $25/h of that. But this can give you an indication of the overhead a company has.
But rest assured, as your experience grows, so will your salary. Mine doubled in the first 2 years and has continued to rise since. Your first few years, you are working for experience, not pay. In my first year as a software engineer, I learn't way more than I ever did at uni, so just because you work hard at uni and good marks, it means relatively little in the scheme of things.
I hope I've made it clear that the reason you you're paid little is because you make relatively little, but this should motivate you to work hard and refine your skills so you can start being an asset instead of a burden.
I don't know how things stand in the current economy, but when I got my first entry-level software engineering job I was 6 years out of college (I had been doing PC tech support before then) and they offered me a salary of $35,000. Over the next couple of years as I showed my peers the kind of work I could do, I received significant raises until I was earning $50K. So if you have a good boss, and you have talent, I wouldn't worry about your starting salary. It will grow over time.
OTOH, at my next job I worked as a system administrator for a measly $15/hour, and the stingy boss never offered me a raise. I quit after 14 months. One of my coworkers there had been working for them for two years for even less money, and when he threatened to quit he finally got a raise. So if you have a boss who is taking advantage of you, I'd suggest looking elsewhere.
See this for a nice minimum that employers could/should be paying. By law, if CA employers do not pay engineers at least $41/hour ($85600/year), then those employees must be eligible for overtime pay. At most companies I know, working more than 8 hours a day (or more than 5 days a week) is standard practice, and you could well earn more than the $85k. That's why most companies that comply with the law one way or another just end up paying people the $85k flat salary.
If you get less, think about making your company pay you back pay overtime for all the hours you've worked, and for all future overtime. It might be as simple as notifying the CA state labor dept.
... which will expire worthless
http://www.newtechusa.com/ppi/main.asp
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
I have over 25 years of programming experience. Self taught from COBOL to microcode to encryption math. Certified in programming. I have Managed, taught and been a plain old programmer. I would consider myself technically top 5% of all the people I've met.
I'm applying for a greeter position at wal-mart.
And you bring what value to your employer?
slashdot troll = you make a compelling argument I do not like the implications of.
$40k is a median for coprorate IT entry level. Maybe $50k if it is heavy tech oriented company and you have good skills. That is a bit above the norm for worthless business and other liberal arts degrees and very easy to live off (but no Mercedes yet).
In DC, New York, and SF you should add on maybe $10k.
You're complaining that your entry level coding job earns less than a waiting job... well, guess what? Waiters earn a lot. Basically, if this salary can let you live in any kind of comfort, TAKE IT! It's better than hanging out in India begging to rewrite someone's accounting app.
- Code Dark
I graduated in '03 with a degree in CS, but I found a job in construction. I'm making 40K as a project manager for a non-profit housing developer. They liked my problem solving skills in the interview, and the fact that I had done work with teams and managed projects, even if they were computer projects.
Surprisingly things have gone well. Who knew?
You want what with that?
All the new CS graduate programmers around here are starting off between $22k and $25k.
--
If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place.
There are good places to work for, and bad, even within a single company. Choose well and you can be happy to work for someone else. Try to ignore the grumpy Gusses, they can spoil your fun.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
I think I would like to speak to what we were looking for in a candidate.
Mostly what we were looking for is a particular mindset with some basic Comp Sci skills. A bachelor's in Comp Sci wasn't even necessary.
Personally I am also making $45K right, looking to go above $50K next year. All based on skill versus knowing particular languages/environments.
You're either good with computers or you're not, and it doesn't seem to matter how many years of classes you take, if you're not good with it, you never will be.
I only say this because it seems that it takes a very special ability that seems inherent in growing up and thinking about things in a certain way. It's rather hard to describe.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d Capitalization really works: i helped my uncle jack off a horse
I think a lot of it depends on where you live. For example, 40k would be a little low anywhere in California, but would probably make a decent salary in many other states. I say if you can pay the rent, pay the bills, and still have enough go out once in a while or buy yourself something nice then you're probably doing pretty well.
Here in San Diego we typically see salaries 10-20k less than in the Bay Area, although the cost of living is not much less. We say we get paid in 'sunshine dollars'.
I have some fairly wealthy friends (meaning a net worth over over 1,000,000), and all of them got that way by starting out at the bottom of the rung, and then getting a second part time job doing things like, waiting tables, or this one guy even mowed lawns and cleaned gutters! The pattern went like this with almost all of them: sorry entry level job with horrible pay + a second part time job - eventually ditch the part time job inf avor of better pay and more hours at the first job, this sometimes occurred after job change on the main job - through hard work and sacrifice they moved up the ladder in their respective fields some were promoted through the chain, some went off and started their own businesses.
Lesson? If you can't find something better, be thankful for what you CAN get. If the money is not enough and it is the field you want to be in, then get a job waiting tables to supplement it (BTW, how low is this pay that waiting tables will pay more?! Geez that's sad cause I've waited tables and I made more money fixing computers and setting up networks in my spare time.) If it is what you want to do, then you do what you have to do to do what you want and make ends meet.
Derek Greene
I would define reasonable as anything that you can live off. Seriously, if you're just starting off, salary should be far from the dominating factor in accepting a position. I'd much rather work for a company doing what I love than writing COBOL for an insurance company and getting paid more.
Focus on finding a position that will develop your skill-set, give you the best exposure to technologies you find interesting, and ideally, people you can learn from (hopefully you get a feel of that from the interview). Figure out (roughly) where'd you like to be in a few years, what it's going to take to get their, and then take the job that best helps you accomplish it. I think you'll find that in a few years the money will naturally start to follow.
Best of luck!
-Bill
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
How important do you guys think a degree is? You can get a great degree but still know jack all about the subject to the point of barely understanding the concept of variables! (that example from a real life encounter), but you can also get a pretty bad degree but actually understand your subject. So how would that factor into salary? I'm soon to graduate (touch wood) and i reckon (not trying to be too full of myself) i could sit someone down at a computer and give them a task and judge within 10 minutes if they were a 1337 h4x0r or.. well.. someone who shouldnt have passed, throw in something strange and see how they deal with learning new things, hell even asking someone to pick variable/function/file names can give you an insight into their way of thinking and working! So would this apply to real life applications or would an employer just look at qualifications? im guessing there are good interviews and PHB interviewers out there? my current job was luckely "show us what you can do" but i have no idea what to expect outside that? All i do know is that working has been 100x more useful than listening to lectures.
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A degree in CS does not an Engineer make. We have some damn fine programmers at my shop and the ones who have been doing it a while make a mint (contracts) but they are not engineers.. I have seen more innovate solutions from them that ignore past present and future architecture concerns at the expense of their project.
If you want my advice (history has shown me to be right 50% of the time) you need to focus on your Engineering credentials in the interviews, not your programming skills. If you don't have anything other than one or two software engineering classes bum the basic ideas off of a friend in an Engineering Program, understand not just the SLC (which I am sure you do) but also the basic Engineering method from which it was derived...
We've been talking about and listening to rants and diatribe and dialog and etc. about Outsourcing lately. Alot of talk is going on now right here about the subject because of the very nature of the question you have asked. Unfortunately, this whole world economy that everyone keeps talking about is here.
As cool as the Linux kernel is, and as interesting as the free software movement might be, it has proven time and time again one very frightening fact. Your developers do not need to be in the same cube, the same room, the same building, state, country or even the same continent. You can code software from around the world, paying salaries as different and diverse as the new world wide employees. Everyone and their brother-in-law knows how to code today. Some of course are real sloppy, or mere script kiddies that know how to tweak here or there. Then there are some that are insane in their brilliance.
In my opinion, with the economy in the U.S. of today, if you have a job offer, you are the lucky one. There are many of us, myself included, who have been forced to take massive pay cuts due to layoffs, mass firings, outsourcing, labor replacement, you name it. The industry is flooded with technical people right now ..... except I've heard that the need for computer oriented auto mechanics is getting ready to explode. But, rumors are rumors.
I read a book once, of which the main point was, a rich man does not work for an employer, he is the employer. (For our female techs ..... rich woman .... she is.) Now obviously, it's probably impossible for everyone in the world to be their own employer. However, there is truth to the statement.
Not that anyone cares, but my mother is an R.N. She works as a nurse and makes a little over 50K a year. My parents are comfortable, but with three sons, college, autos, and a house, my father still works to help with bills. The current economic state of the U.S., not just in technology, but across the board, is in trouble. Just watch the politicians as they run around trying to jump start it.
NAFTA and trade agreements like it, while helping the prices of some of our goods ultimately be cheaper, have caused less of us to have the money to buy the goods in the first place. As I've said before (though I'm not sure how many times on /.) Chevy trucks from Mexico, the Camaro was from Canada, Toyota Tundra from Indiana, Mercedes G Wagen from Georgia (of all places that's where they are moving the plant.) and all points in between. We, as a people on the whole and I'm not trying to attack any one person here, are lazy. Americans are lazy. Hell, I'm lazy. One of the greatest things I've ever seen in this world, however, is the human ability to adapt. We have been Rome for so long. On top of the world and lounging on our bottoms, when suddenly a revolution occurs and many die in a bloody battle.
Our revolution is here, many will perish, true. But in time we will adapt and learn bigger and better ways to do whatever it is we do. Personally, computers are becoming so commodity that it's almost time for the next great thing. Because, necessity is the mother of invention. Right now it is necessary to create more jobs for our country. It's time for invention to be reborn!!
Sorry about the rant, but this question gave me the perfect venue to vent it. Thanks.
"Genius may shine aloof and alone, like a star, but goodness is social, and it takes two men and God to make a Brother."
If you were trying to win experience but nobody wanted to hire you, would it be a bad idea to attempt to gain experience by volunteering in free software projects while living in one's parents' basement?
It does not matter if you have 4 years college. Another kid with 6 months on-job experience will likely own you when it comes to solutions. Map is not the territory. If you have a shitty job which you don't like, but pays something and teaches you well keep it. My only advice would be to get involved in open source projects or volunteering. A lot of projects where money is low-to-none pay off in exposure and can allow you to make key decisions. I think putting up with shit is worth it as long as your goal is growth. R>
I graduated 18 months ago, and have applied for over 100 jobs - and not ONE single interview...
Head over to Salary.com, choose 'entry level', then 'programer I'. I selected DC as an example. Came up with 45k to 57k, with 50k as the median. You can go there and choose other locations as well. The link below gives you a direct link to the site with those options selected. Along with bonuses and benifits.
Link
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
She also has published a number of books about how to be a computer consultant, which are quite good. I bought the PDF download version of her marketing guide, and found its advice very valuable.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
I couldn't disagree more strongly - the field of computer science is not changing all that quickly. Radically new ideas come along only rarely, and even when they do, if you're well-educated in the field, it's not hard to understand them. The products on the market are turning over very quickly, but that's all the more reason to focus on the fundamentals.
A sufficiently intelligent and motivated person can probably do it any way they like, but in general I think it's a lot easier to study science in school and self-study the applies side than to do it the other way around.
Yes, there are hiring managers like the ones you describe - and they're a good sign that you're interviewing with the wrong company. There are also places that don't suck.
I was going to say more, but now I have to run.
College has innumerable benefits in making you a better human being that you won't get a chance to see at any other point in your life. Where else can you follow a class in operating systems design with one on architecture (the building kind) and then a deep discussion on the way the mind works?
The best class I ever took was one on autonomous robotics. Getting robots to work in the real world is an extremely difficult task and computers do NOT go well with it. The computer is happy in its provable sandbox world where there are only Completely Right and Completely Wrongs. In robotics whatever you get to work on paper in theory won't work right when you try to make it happen. You have to be *creative*. You have to approach a problem with a very open mind and a tolerance for *failure*. And you have to have a truly gifted insight for problem solving. The issues aren't ones of bad programming or design, but usually much deeper and rooted in the uncertainty's of the real world. The best people i've found for working on these issues tend to be those with artistic experience and lots of hands-on mechanical abilities because they intuitively 'know' the real world and how the system can react in it better than the guy who's just programmed in his sandbox all his life. There are millions of unaccountable variables that hinder autonomous robotics and you need to be able to pick out and deal with the ones you feel will matter the most. There's no procedure for this, its highly instinctive and creative experience based.
Its been said the best tool to give all AI (and robotics) students is a brick to hit themselves in the head with now and then. I think every CS student should take such a class to force them to think creatively. They'll be better people for it.
-
This depends entirely on the area of the country, and the job sector you are planning on entering. For instance, I'm in the mid-atlantic and jobs like fixing bugs for large companies pays low to mid 40's (maybe high 40's to low 50's if you're lucky and/or an excellent candidate).
There are a lot of jobs in the defense sector right now, and those can pay significantly more since contractors need to fill staffing requirements for gov't contracts that are already funded.
When graduating last May, I expected (and received) upper 50's from a small defense contractor in this region. This month, my company re-baselined salaries, putting me in the upper 60's.
So, depending on what sort of companies you're targeting, you can expect anywhere from mid 40's to upper 50's (in the mid-atlantic).
Hope that helps!
Yeah, the buggy whip market really picked up after all the buggy whip manufacturers left the market.
So your theory is "lack of supply creates it's own demand?????"
Seriously, economics is a little bit sociology, a little bit statistics and a LOT of voodoo ideology!!!!!
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
A day late with this, but I can't resist. What the fuck do you expect? You chose a major whose industry counterpart is having a seizure, and a concentration (Software) that is rapidly being outsourced for higher quality and lower cost. I still maintain that monkeys can be trained to write code and that the true talent is in software engineering. The last ironclad bastions of strict programming are RPG, ATM, and COBOL. Essentially, banks. There's a logical saturation point in the "pure" computer industry. When the industry reaches that point (I believe it has, IMHO) it becomes more lucrative to use applied computing knowledge to unrelated jobs. You started your degree in 2000. You had plenty of time to jump ship in 2001. If you are genuinely mystified as to why your initial offers are lower than your expectations, perhaps a Grad school program in an NON-CS PROGRAM is for you.
Abusive, trollish, yeah that's me.
Check Salary.com to get a pretty good idea based on your skillset. It doesn't hurt to check with monster/dice/computerjobs/etc but the ranges listed there are often meaningless. Salary.com is generic enough that there will be some flux in rates, but it's a good general guide. For example, in my city Programmer I (entry level programmer, fresh out of college for example) is going to make between $42K and $55K/yr. Frankly, that sounds high for someone right out of college, but in some markets that's the going rate. To put it in perspective, the median US *household* income (meaning this includes dual income families) is $42K/yr so right out of the gate you're doing better than most people.
this is getting old and so are you
blog
If your just starting your job search now, you're already way behind. The people who are making good money right out of school are the ones who worked full time during school. People wonder why they can't find a job after graduating college. You know what, there are thousands of people just like you with the same experience competing for a handful of jobs. You need to be different than the rest, and to be different that means skills and experience. If your a college freshman reading this, start looking for a job this summer, instead of drinking beer and partying. Get an internship or co-op and you'll be the one laughing at graduation time... (I speak from experience)
AUS33K as a sysadmin/netadmin? Unless you're fresh out of school you're well and truely getting screwed. Go find yourself a better job and strive a little instead of telling other people not to aspire to more. "Be grateful for what you're given" is an attitude for losers and serial victims. "Go out there and work hard and get what you're worth" is a much better attitude.
I am a salaried employee - typically work MORE than 40 hours a week and even wear a pager and do server upgrades at night - BUT I don't get overtime. I have a Master's Degree in Computer Science, but my employers have continually shifted my role from developer and security analyst to what basically amounts to technical support - stuff I could have done out of High School.
I make a mere 50K per year for my credentials, and I don't think it's worth the work, stress, and time involved. There is no competition for employers because jobs are so scarce, so they can pretty much get away with paying as little as they can.
If I could do it all over again, I'd pick another field or learn Hindi. The only thing that will save this industry is either unionization or some sort of engineering license to practice software development in the US.
What's worse is when employees look at your resume and say
"You're overqualified. Why do you want to work here."
My answer
"I would like to make my car payment. Where else am I going to live???
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
"entry level software engineer" is not the right title. try "entry level programmer". at the entry level, i doubt you would do any engineering of software. you will most likely be on a team of programmers with specific requirements for the programming project.
Why did I lurk so long before registering for a Slashdot account? I could have had a Slashdot ID of less than 100000.
cynics know the cost of everything and the value of nothing
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Ok, I'll bite. I probably wouldn't hire you because you have your resume in PDF format. What reason do you have for putting your resume in PDF? What is so bad about putting it in HTML? I see nothing on your resume that shows interest in any specific field of programming. As a possible employer, it's nice to see someone that has the non-monetery drive for a project. By doing a F/OSS project, it shows you're not jumping on the dot-com bandwagon looking to make a quick buck. That's OT, but here's my story and advice to everybody here:
I started off as a developer in '95 while in high school. I started my own business and made a good bit of money (1K+/month) for a HS kid. After that, I went and got a steady job making $27K "entry level" b/c the language they needed developers in I was new in. Then I left there for greener pastures and ~$50K in Houston (400 mile move for me) at the age of 19 working for a big well known linux company (who wouldn't let me run linux as my desktop and wanted to host all the sites on IIS). I left there for numerous reasons and to another job for $50 in another big city (200 miles further). There are many more jobs I've had, but that is the jist of it.
Now we fast forward to today, and I'm back to contracting. Contracting is a beautiful thing because I get to spend time doing my own thing (open source projects). I'm making a decent amount now contracting. While I was making more before, I decided to buy everything I wanted/needed and not to finance anything. What a novel concept for 90% of people. I hate the concept of credit because if you don't have the money for something, you shouldn't buy it. You also pay a lot more if you finance.
Another thing that made me so happy is the fact that I will never want a SO again. I've had them in the past, but they take way too much time and money. Add a wife and kids into the mix and you're working like a slave to keep afloat since in the culture we live in, you bring home the bacon and everyone depends on you. It's much easier if you are self-sufficient.
The main advice I have for all developers is to start an open source project. There is nothing more fulfulling (for me at least). The projects I do will never make me money, but they make me happy. The main reason I got into developing is because I didn't want to pay for software and the tools available were not what I wanted so I wrote my own.
My lifestyle and ideas will not apply to most people, but they were decisions I made and am quite happy with. Most people like having credit, a family, etc which I hope they're happy with. I OTOH don't want these limitations (if you will) put on me.
This is the Internet. You can say "fuck" here. - AC
Before being a sysadmin, I drove two trucks.
Is that even legal? Do you like lean out of one window and in the window of the other? I'm guessing they must have been automatics, right?
Damn those teamsters. They'll try and get away with anything!
Pretty neat skill though. Kudos.
If you want to be a programmer, stop complaining every time something is distressing for a good start, because distress will have to become your second name. This is not an easy job if you plan to be even remotely competent. Seriously. If four years of learning is too much for you, then please give up now while you are still young, because for any half-decent programmer every year means learning, learning, learning. You should probably spend at least as much time learning as working. Always remember that learning is much more important than working, because it will help you work better.
Great. Tell that to your employer and I can guarantee you that.
None taken.
With such an attitude you will probably end homeless pretty soon. Your most important problem is that you want a reasonable starting salary. What you really need is an unreasonable starting salary. Every time I hire someone who talks about "reasonable salaries" or "not being greedy" I note two most important things to myself: primo: remember to pay minimum rates; secundo: probably an incompetent worker. I am not saying that people demanding more money are always better, mind you. This is just a rule of thumb. Also, you should always say that you don't have a girlfriend because your employer knows that this is the only way you can possibly have time and will to devote most of your free time to learning and to perfecting the art of programming. I have noticed that the best programmers I have ever hired are those with anti-social nature but with very big ego. So don't try to play a "popular" kind of guy, unless you want to get a marketing job. Always remember to have some proof of high IQ, e.g. the Mensa membership card. What can I add... Just be yourself and everything should be all right. Don't forget about learning. I wish you the best luck.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
Given that any company of reasonable size can hire an experienced programmer with a masters degree in India for about 24k a year, I would think you shouldn't expect much more than that.
If that seems to little for you, try moving to India. Seriously. The 15k or so you'll make there as a starting salary translates into roughly a 45k a year job here in terms of standard of living.
Funny how the tech economy crashed before W could get into office, though, isn't it?
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Getting a security clearance can be one of the most valuable things you can do for your career, especially if you get a Top Secret clearance. Salaries are 10%-50% higher and and the number of candidates for the jobs is far lower. Also there is absolutely no fear of being outsourced!
Really. The degree you want is a Bachelor's in Software Engineering. Yes, there is such a degree, even though not many schools offfer it yet, but take a look at that link and learn how such a degree with distinguish yourself from the next hotshot programmer.
BTW, Steve McConnell is the author of some of the more important books on software engineering, such as Code Complete (a new edition is coming in June) and others.
Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
I remember when people were only into programming because they had a passion for it. Getting paid to do it was just a fringe benefit. If you are in it for the money, then listen to everyone else who will give you insight into the standard salary for "production people". You're told what to do; you are part of a team; what you create has little or nothing to do with what generally interests you; get married, have kids, buy that new spiffy VW and watch football. The end.
Like any job, experience is what really counts. Coming out of college you'll be ripe for the picking by companies that want to "mold" you into their perfect little productive cog, and that's fine if that's your thing.
I can't speak for that. It's not my thing. But maybe I can offer you some alternate insight.
Think about what you're really passionate about. It doesn't matter if it's neural nets or fishing nets. Chances are your CompSci degree has a place in the industry, and work on exploiting your computer experience to become a "specialist" in that field. That way you come out with a higher-than-average salary and you have the added bonus of doing something that really interests you.
I've heard it was about $10k (USD) a year for programmers.
The difference is in India the salary doubles every time you get a promotion so the management types actually cost more than in the US. But the whole project is cheeper because the lower ranks are getting paid less.
I saw this in a magazine article about Indian outsourcing, but I am not really sure how true it is about salaries doubling. I know that in developing countries in general the increments with promotions are a lot higher percentages than in developed countries, but the base is very low
-Jasa -- Linux - The SOURCE will be with you, ALWAYS
First off, location is everything. I am not sure what area you are in, but it is true that salaries can vary widely from region to region (and naturally country to country!)
My first job out of college in 1989 paid about $25k a year as a software engineer. That was near the bottom of the barrel for salaries in my area at that time for a software engineer, but still a respectable living (I coulda probably gotten another $5k-10k in my area for a new hire).
But it was a fabulous job! I worked a mutli-million dollar software development project from start to finish at Kennedy Space Center--invaluable experience and great fun. It may forever remain the fondest memory in my working career--working at KSC, watching shuttles launch where I was close enough to feel the air vibrate as they thundered into the sky, during the peak of the post-Challenger era. Telling all my friends I was a Rocket Scientist (TM).
I've since moved on, but I'm still a firm believer that if you don't enjoy what you are doing, no salary is enough. I'm married with kids now, and you couldn't pay me enough to work 60-70 hours a week instead of spending that time with my family.
Look for the job you're going to enjoy, something you believe in, it will add years to your life, instead of take them away!
That meant that I didn't always get the best pay - my first real programming job had a salary of $20k in 1987, and I had to work a lot of extra hours without overtime pay. But I was doing image processing.
In the long run I turned out to do pretty well. I've been working as a software consultant since 1998, and managed to keep myself fed and housed as a consultant all the way through the economic downturn, so that now that the economy is getting better, my skills are still current and I'm getting as much business as I can handle.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
I must have conducted a hundred interviews, and help hire two dozen programmers. Before the "dot bomb," it was not that unusual to see $55K right out of college. To my knowledge (which is a bit thin, I haven't hired _lately_), it still is in this neighborhood, if you have a C.S. or C.E. degree from a major institution with good grades.
One word of notice, though. You didn't mention _WHERE_. That's a very important missing piece, because the wages vary dramatically across the U.S. My area is San Diego. If you're willing to move, send me a resume at joekraska@san.rr.com and I will look at it.
The work is defense related, and will require a clearance. Things are very good at my company, however things in San Diego aren't so hot that the company is paying relo very often. But one never knows. We're adding staff left and right...
C//
Most of the Jobs that I have found require minimum work experience along with a degree. That level of work experience is typically 3-5 years. Please do not confuse learning to code on your own or any other such nonsense as work experience. Yes, it helps to learn on your own, but its much better to get away from the computer and get work experience, even if it's a 7 dollar an hour internship at the university.
Well, since you are already graduating, I hope you have work experience otherwise, it's going to be another 3-5 years before you can even hope of getting a job that makes those 4-5 years in school worth it.
I've got a year and a half left (till my BS) and I already have 3 years of experience in computational software development and 5 years for systems administration (mostly parallel development and design and deployment of beowulf systems). I got lucky in high school and grabbed an intership at a local manufacturer. Worked for their IT department doing piddly things, however, the entry on my resume and some dumb luck made future Jobs come to me.
I feel bad if you are getting this news too late. A friend of mine already graduated last semester and had little to no work experience. The best offer he got was an internship (internship??? the guy already graduated!) with IBM for around 12 bucks an hour to audit web code.
To answer your question: If you have no work experience, CNN claims that the average out-of-college CS degree holder will get a starting pay of around $48,000 a year. I call bullshit on that one and have a more conservative estimate of around $35,000 if you get lucky (it greatly depends on your location). At this point, you should just take what you can get and keep your eyes open for better opportunities. At this point, someone else is probably right behind you in the H.R. line, with his/her CS degree, drooling for that $10 an hour job.
If you have good work experience and have worked in a specialized field (not systems administration), the salary possibilities are endless if you know where to look. Accept nothing less than $50,000 or $60,000 if you know you're good, you have the experience to back it up, and you have sufficient funds to go a month or two without a job.
> I am not trying to get rich, but . . .
Why not? What's wrong with trying to get rich?
Or is that code for not wanting to get into management? I can understand that but being rich is a Good Thing (tm).
Or is do you have an objection to _trying_ because Homer Simpson says "the first step toward failure is trying so never, ever try"?
--
Joe
I've got 5 years experience and have gotten %100 raise in two years(my first two). I left that job because I could see where the company was going(down). I got a job that I hated, and was happily laid off in 9 months. I now work from home for $48K/yr. The money's not great, but the hours are.
Working hard and learning are two different things. I know some students at Caltech that are working very hard, but at the same time learn very little. There are people on the other side that work only a small amount, yet they are learning a lot. Getting a degree from such a place may have some perks, like showing that you can handle stress or some work load, but if you don't know how to do the job you might be in trouble.
What each person gets out of college is going to be different. It depends not only on the college itself, but on the person and how/what they did while there. In the end, just knowing someone has a college degree does not mean too much. Some one may have just as much, if not more, skill and talent from previous work experience. This is where an interview should become important, to see what they actually retain from previous experiences.
.. and trust me on the sunscreen
learn from yesterday, plan for tomorrow, party tonight
or one out of three ain't bad
Though my company uses an idealized 2,080 hour year, divides your salary into that to get your "hourly rate", and then pays me at that rate. It's generally a way to screw you. 2,032 is the real max billable days I could work with perfect attendance and zero overtime (and since I'm a consultant, many, many companies forbid consultants from working any overtime).
Example:
$55,000 / 2,080 = $26.44/hour
$55,000 / 2,032 = $27.07/hour
A difference of $25.20/week, or $1,310.40 a year, which is a decent mortgage payment, or several car payments, or roughly what I spend on essential groceries in a year.
Good health coverage, $20 deductable this year (was $10 last year), 401k matching to the first $500 (what a fucking joke).
Whatever you do, take the max deduction out for 401k that you can, then put the max you can into Roth IRA's, too. Yeah, you'll take a hit now, and have less money to spend, but when you go to retire, you'll love how much you have accumulated. Forced savings makes you watch your budget more than optional savings.
(posted anonymously to protect innocent and guilty alike)
Let me start by saying that I live in a mid size city in north carolina where the standard of living is about 1.2, meaning that on average you'll pay 120% here compared to the American mean for stuff.
I've known quite a few programmers that have switched jobs or been laid off recently. I'm also a business technology consultant with a good feeling of my client's business needs in a market threatened by IT ventures still acting like dot-commers (Some of our biggest competition in the local market are small shops doing entirely out of the box open source integration to give you an idea)
As a result of all this I have a pretty good idea what people in this area are making; when I hear what our competitor is charging for their hourly rate, I can figure out what their hourly wage is likely to be given their overhead, etc.
Right now it appears that the going rate for a wet behind the ears programmer maxes out at about $35K a year. Experience is worth a lot; 5 years will get you to about $50K.
FYI, the best Indian outsourcers are charging $25-$30 an hour. Let's say a hypothetical IT worker is making $100K a year, then in this industry you would have to charge from $135 to $175 an hour to turn a profit, if that gives a good comparison for what the Indian IT outsourcers are likely paying their people... open source shops with relatively unexperienced workers are pulling from $50 to $85 an hour.
I just graduated a few weeks ago with a CS degree from the UC system. 3.93 GPA. Been working in-industry for some 7 years holding down a few good internships. I've never worked retail or waited tables.
I had two offers straight out of school; I only interviewed at one company. The first offer came from my intern employer. 55k + 3 weeks vacation + benefits. The second offer came after an interview. Let's just say it was -well- worth leaving my internship. Both offers were with great companies that had great talent on their team. But as has been said here already, money talks. I'm in the SF bay area.
Experience is everything. I had built up my network of people resources over the past 7 years and when it came time to find a real job I tapped into just one person in the network. Employers will pay good money for talented engineers. Proving your talent isn't always easy.
Be glad you got offers.
How much do you need? Waiting tables is hard work. Greed is not good.
Get some experience and maybe you will be able to have a job for awhile. The third world has lots of folks that know how to write programs and will work hard for little money.
http://tinyurl.com/globalwarmingisascam
Oh give me a break. This is some dumbass who claims that his 4 year degree equates with a "high level of skill"..
In my experience as a 20 year coder who has hired (and fired) CS University grads - they are almost always complete wastes of time. At least the community college grads don't think they know it all.
In the law there is no overlap between theft and copyright infringement whatsoever.
Speaking as an employer, I will say that your pay will depend on the location of the business. Certain areas are more expensive to live than others, and jobs in those areas will usually pay better. Since the cost of living is higher, you may or may not actually end up with more money in your pocket at the end of the month...
Check out our infosecurity industry blog: http://securitymusings.com/
I am a programmer, but started as the in-between half-support, half-development utility guy. I was hired on after being a temp in a different department, at $13/hr. After the first year, I was salaried at $35,000.
$35K seems fair. Nothing against you, but as a kid out of school, you're more than likely to be annoying to fellow workers than a valuable member of the team. Also, the work you're going to do is going to be boring and low priority. It's at that time when you have enough time to do something useful on the side, and basically sell it to your boss. That's what I did, and after the boss saw my value as a programmer, I was moved shortly afterwards.
After the first couple of years, your salary will be much higher. You can't expect to be making .COM era money right now. It's better to "start at the bottom and work your way up."
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
Dude, don't worry about the pay. I was paid peanuts for my first programming job. I stayed for 1 1/2 years and went for another job. For my second job, my salary doubled and I stayed there for 1 year and went to another job where I again got another nice pay bump. Take the job and stick it out for 12 to 18 months and your next job your salary will go way up. Basically, you have no real world experience to the companies and they are not going to invest a lot of money in you up front. However, once you get that first 12 - 18 months under your belt, the fat salary times will begin.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
Live in your mom's basement. Work at the highest paying job you can find for a year. (It will probably suck). Use the money you saved on rent and food to start your own business.
Even if you fall on your face, the dedication and self-discipline you showed will stand out on a resume, and make a great story during interviews.
For a prime example of this strategy, check out a book called "Rebel Without a Crew"... it's the true story of how a penniless film student sold his body to science for 7 grand and used the money to make himself a million dollar directing career.
good luck!
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root.
Im a freshmen in college right now with a major in computer engineering, which is more hardware based. Does anyone have any insight on how the outsourcing has effected the hardware aspect of computing?
From what I see from NVIDIA, AMD, Intel, and ATI, millions are being poored into R&D with rigorous product deployment... So i am hoping that the situation isn't nearly as bad.
until you prove your worth and skill, you join the line of burger flippers at the local hamburger place. Finishing with a degree is common today, in an industry that has a million people with the same qualifications. I had a fellow working for me with a degree in electrical engineering and a degree in computer science, he was opening housings and removing PCBs, he progressed to a postal worker. (but wants to come back and work for me again)
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I do alot of hiring (specifically programmers) and I myself am extremely picky. As for what a reasonable salary would be: Here are my guidelines: PHP (15K) Postgresql (10K) ASP (10K) Oracle (10K) UNIX (15K) SQLserver (Microsoft) (15K) PERL (5K) Windows .NET (c#) (15K)
VB (15K)
C/C++ (15K)
So now If I hire someone with Perl, Postgresql, UNIX and ASP, I would expect to pay: 5+10+15+10= 40K annual salary.
I don't hire by prior experience. This is where it gets tricky.. I have half a clue and my bullshit meter really gets set off alot. So those I don't hire.. but there are always a few people you know are just "good" regardless of whether they have alot or a little experience. These are the ones I hire.
If I like the person (personality counts) I add another 5K.
I always believe my programmers are dbas and my dbas are admins..
So.. I only hire well rounded people. oh yeah. I won't hire anyone who doesn't understand the concepts of network routing and PKE.
It takes half a brain to truly understand those things and if a candidate understands the concepts behind both routing and PKE, I know they understand technology..
Haven't been wrong with my formula yet..
As for raises, I believe in quarterly reviews with increases up to 20% per quarter (depending on performance)..
In all my years of managing, I've had no failed projects, 1 person quit and 30+ people fired.
Move to India.
Anyway, if you can get a clearance then you are very much in demand. It costs around $50-200k for a company to get you a clearance (this is what it costs for the paperwork and background checks, with the costs ranging for the different levels of clearance), and that doesn't even gaurenty that you will even recieve a clearance. So, if you have an oppertunity of working for a place that will get you a clearance, it is in their interest to keep you as happy employee for at least a little while to make up for the huge investment they have already put into you (but take that with a grain of salt as well, since they will be putting up a large investment into you so it can be harder to get hired). But, once you have clearance, you have a VERY BIG TICKET item in negotiations with other companies that also require security clearances.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
i wouldn't stay at $25K for more than 2 or 3 years though. it depends where you live, but if you stay too long in the upper $20Ks you'll regret it. you aren't being paid enough.
people, this is why you need to get experience while you're in college. find internships. get any kind of programming/IT work you can find.
and you definitely have to learn more than what your curriculum offers. if you want to earn, you have to come out of the gates with more than just the crap colleges teach you cause most schools are sorta clueless in some ways. their agenda doesn't always match business reality. and these days, that's only more true. with out-sourcing you have to cross-train in other disciplines and create yourself as this new breed. become a guru on ADA compliance. know a foreign language. have a math minor and be up on actuarial science. be a tech writer too. get a security clearance. have paralegal skills. get certificates to be a trainer. go back and get biology training and get into biotech.
you have to elbow, kick, and grep | uniq | sort your way to higher salaries and even then you'll constantly fight for that.
m.
As others have said, cost of living does make a large difference in determining how appropriate a salary is. Benefits, too - free health coverage is worth quite a bit. We also don't know your skill set, or your GPA, or your work experience, or whatever.
However, I guess I'd just caution not to get to too greedy. $45k with benefits is honestly pretty decent out of college. Is it _the maximum_ you could get? Probably not. Is it a pretty decent living, especially for a single guy? You bet. No one's stopping you from finding another job in a year or two, either, or asking for a raise.
Then again, I've more or less given up on CS as a career - the one thing I discovered from majoring in it is that _I don't enjoy programming all day_. The irony, eh? Surprisingly, I enjoy doing GUI work, and doing algorithms. Just not being a code monkey (although I am decent at it). Hence, I double-majored in Econ, too - CS might have ruined my GPA, but, hot damn, not too many new economists who can program as well as I do.
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
Take it you'll never get another offer like that when someone like me gets to interview you. Can't wait until you first peer review.
"My Opinion is My Opinion and Another person has not easily a right to it" F. Nietzsche
An experienced software developer has a LOT more potential than a freshly minted grad. It's this "been there done that" thing. Developers become a lot better when they spend five years on the job and go through a couple product cycles, ups, downs, deathmarches, etc. It's this "been there, done that, won't do it again" thing that they don't teach in college.
I dropped out of college, and now I get paid $30/hour (salaried) with bonuses 3 times a year in an IT management role, in Tokyo, one of the hardest and exclusive places in the world to land an IT job. How? I just studied what I wanted to study, not what I was told to. How you like me now?
For example, I have a friend who has just finished a degree in computer science, and to his own credit is somewhat of a prodigy. He has some (small, but some) social skills, and is capable of holding jobs. Now even with all the things he has going for him he is still in a saturated working environment, where he ends up not developing software but instead fixing internet connections for less learned persons. Is this a suitable use of his skills? I would say no.
So to end this post I would say you pretty much have to take what you can get these days, and work your way up in a big way. The other option (as I have chosen to exploit) is always self employment. At least with self employment you can guarantee that if you work hard you will actually get paid more.
That really is my homepage, no kidding.
Forget about working. Make enough money to buy some real estate. Leverage your money, and soon enough, you don't have to work anymore. Be smart about this, don't become a wage slave for the rest of your life.
First off, I think I got a really first rate education myself and have since been working for 2 years. I think I have some talent too. I'm fairly confident when I say that in your first job or so, you are really learning more than you providing the employer - at least if you're learning enough. If the job will give you a chance to learn and improve yourself and pay rent at the same time, you're probably getting paid too much when your contribution is compared to the salary of senior developer who really knows his shit - of course there are crappy "senior" developers as well. Anyway, take what you're offered, the main goal is to learn and become better.
Just to share what I've been making.
I interned my senior year at a forture 500 IT type company. I was paid an outrageous $20/hr.
I graduated into the burst bubble and picked up with a small software shop in an expensive area that paid me 40K + a sizeable end of year bonus but lacked benifits.
I moved to a less expensive area and got a job at another small shop at 40K and a weak benifits package.
True, I'm paid better than most Americans, but frankly I salary isn't the most important thing to me. I love what I do, and I'm resigned to my wife making more money than I do in the long term. She's an actuary.
What would I expect coming out into today's market? 35-40K would be fine. When I was at the big company and looked over their pay scales I saw that I would start at 55-60K. I didn't get a job there as they were laying people off when I graduated. That really warped my views of what was reasonable. I suspect that many college students are still feeling the after shocks of that shift as well.
try salary.com you can input job and location and you get an average starting salary.
Do you have any marketable skills? I am a project manager for software development. I prefer to hire people who don't have computer science degrees. My current crew includes a physicist, chemist, criminal justice, oceaographer, etc. Your other skills in communications, planning, testing, and understanding the customer business are far more important than the computer science.
That said, $40K in our moderate-cost-of-living area is a decent starting salary. However, you'll pay a lot more for your benefits here so the pay is probably equivalent to $35K somewhere else.
Good luck in the job hunting.
Go into business on your own.... you'll make more. :)
I put my resume up on a few internet job sites and waited. I didn't call anyone. Calls started coming in about a month later but most of them were startup consulting firms (stock market bubble hadn't burst yet). I didn't want a job like that with a wife and baby to support.
Eventually a defense company called (by accident as they misread my resume) but decided to pull me in for an interview anyway after the phone screen. The day after I got back from the interview Fedex delivered my job offer. I started at a wee bit over $24 per hour (which happened to be exactly what I asked for). I have a 40 hour week and never work overtime unless I want to.
I'm in New Jersey though which isn't exactly the cheapest of states to live in. Hopefully that gives you an idea of what to look for. Just remember to factor in the cost of living for the area when determing your asking salary. Also don't forget to consider the benefits (medical, dental, vision, 401k, pension, insurance, etc.)
Can anyone comment on what pay rates are considered the norm in Canada? And with a masters?
"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
Right now, the job market dictates that employers not hire new grads, or if they have to, for a very low pay.
I graduated last May and started work for a software company immediately. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the work, but the cost of living is high enough that, financially speaking, my salary isn't near what I thought it was when moving from farther south. That being said, I don't do the work for the money - I do it for the enjoyment of the work.
If you can't honestly see yourself putting in extra hours (in an ideal situation, of course) simply because you love the work and for no other reason, then don't get a job doing development.
If money's your forte, get your MBA, and become a manager. But in my experience, that would mean you'd have to be clueless and at least somewhat incompetent.
Cause or effect, I wonder...
I imagine there are some smart people who are not adverse to working hard and might be inclined to join the military for educational benefits instead of taking student loans (a smart move in itself).
Stupid sexy Flanders.
As an Intelligence geek for the AF, I feel I should throw my two cents in here.
:)
If you do want to be an intel geek, go officer. They have a pretty awesome responsibility, and plus- you're an officer! (Better pay, more of an opportunity to actually use your critical thinking and analysis skills) The AF Specialty Code (AFSC) for that is 14N (that'll come in handy when talking to a recruiter)
If you want to be enlisted (perish the thought with a college degree!!), here's a brief description of the fields:
1N0 - Briefers. These guys have to know a ton, and do some fairly cool planning stuff.
1N1 - Imagery (what's that blob mean??)
1N2 - Morse-Code... I don't reccommend this job, as it's being phased out, and just lost it's entire signing bonus
1N3 - Linguist - learn to speak Arabic, Chineese, or a plethora of other ("enemy") languages
1N4 - Intel Analyist... I'm not really sure what these guys do, but I'm told it's important!
1N5 - "Electronic Signals Explotation Operative"... This is what I do- basically the study/explotation of RADAR systems
1N6 - "Systems Security".... like reading peoples' email and then ratting them out for violating security proceedures?? That's what these people do!
In short, About.com is a great resource to use when thinking about joining the military... There's a lot of "minor" things recruiters leave out, so be sure to do your homework first!
Furthermore, when you're waiting for a clearance, expect to wait a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG time. Especially if it's a Top Secret one. Some bases will let you work with an Interim (temporary) clearance, and some won't... If the base you end up at is in the latter category, expect to be waiting over a year, doing nothing related to your job.
-Jokerghost
Dude chill about the "whoring". And the books recommended aren't even that good. They're bullcrap "management" books, not books about the nuts and bolts of programming.
I advise that you look strongly at contract-to-hire type work, or just straight contract work, if you're good. If you were better than your peers in school, are more into what you do, etc, then this will likely pay off. Talent, skill, and ability pay. So take a contract job to make yourself low-risk for your employer, and you'll likely find yourself being reeled in as a permanent. Negotiate up.
If you're not good, say under the 75th percentile in skill, this will not work well, and it will be best at the 90th+. But if you're good, think about this.
If you convert it to rupees then you'll see how much more money than your Indian counterpart is getting paid. Of course he/she is not getting any medical benefits or 401k and the CEO of his company is not making the $23 million per year that the average CEO for a multinational is making in the US. Of course he must deserver that much money because he made that extra tough decision that you are getting paid too much for a skilled job in the US. Of course his job is so tough he/she has time to be on some phoney commision for the government (think Carlie F here) and still run the company.
Be thankful you even have a job and are not in Iraq:)
I have friends in the SE of the UK. They earn less than 55K and the housing probably costs more than you're paying. If you're lucky you can get a small 2-up-2-down in a terrace with a kitchen extension thing on the back, and it will only cost 80% of your after-tax income.
2. Get and keep a security clearance. Don't let it lapse. Don't do drugs or, God forbid, marry a non-U.S. citizen. Always pretend that you agree with everything George says and repeat after me: "Hanging is too good for anyone from France".
Whoops... my wife is a citizen of a country whose official religion is Islam (Malaysia), we travelled together around India a few months ago, my brother married a French citizen last year, and my little sister's in France RIGHT NOW.
I'm staying away from drugs, though -- think I might still get clearance?
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
Unfortunately, the days of graduating from college and walking into an upper 5/lower 6 figure salary are long gone. Coupled with the growing trend towards overseas outsourcing to take advantage of lower labor rates and the glut of experienced developers on the market, you're coming out of school with a lot of competition for an increasingly small number of positions. If you have two offers, not interviews, but offers then you should really consider yourself lucky. Take the best one and work there for a year or two so that your resume will reflect that somebody thought you were skilled enough to hire you and keep you. From that point, continue building your experience and you'll see your salary go up.
Since you're in a hiring position, let me ask you this. How much do you value "real world" experience? How much more is a person with prior experience at some job worth than a "fresh" college graduate?
I personally think real world experience is over rated. I mean, a person studies a major to enable him/herself to be productive in a job related to the major. With every manager probably looking for a person with experience, its pretty hard for fresh graduates to get jobs.
I dont know your exact experience, but from what ive seen (now im on the outside, and hire) is that average starting for web coders, is about $12/hr, for the same job i was getting $30/hr four years ago.
/., what they think they will make when they get out of college (after they get out of HS).
/., is BS.
Im thinking that many of the estimates on this, so far, are more what people wish they were making, or, in many cases w/
Im not saying that many people here arnt making good $$, im just thinking that a big part, like usualy on
Depending on your area, you may be able to live good on $30K. If your parents are supporting you, keep looking, but if not, aim for $15/hr.
Im glad
I actually had the old HR guy at my current employer tell me to check out Salary.com when I was transferring to a new area. It was very helpful in figuring out what I should be making with my position.
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
I'm in Louisiana and if I could find an entry level programming job here I'd happily take 25k a year to get started. That's about how much the state pays (give or take 2 grand depending on if you start as a Programmer I or II). I probably could find one now, but I have made a change in plans that doesn't involve staying here or working an ordinary programming job. As someone above said, you don't have to work there forever and the experience will be invalueable as you move further away from your graduation date. If you work as a waiter for a year your degree will die regardless of how much money you make.
...when you get disclaimers and financial advice in one post!
I code a little on the side for fun, but I have been a shipwright for about 18 years.
I can't see moving from 40K a year to 40K a year and just getting burnt out on the one thing I love doing
go figure
once more into the breach
I graduated in Spring 2002 with a degree in CS. I continued to look for a job until November 2002. At that point I had the opportunity to be hired as a temporary tester (writing tests, running test, etc), making 30K. I was only supposed to be there a few months, but after that time, they kept me on as a temp. During that time, they increased my salary to 50K...as a TEMP! Then in Sept 2003, they hired me on full time w/ benefits for 60K. So as you can see, it all depends. I went from no job (only a few weeks from a coffee shop job), to making 60K in less than a year. So my contribution is that anything can help, so take the first job available, get experience, make connections, and move on later if you want to.
The easiest (and most accurate) way to determine a salary is to use the IEEE USA Salary Calculator. It's free to IEEE USA members who answer the survey themselves.
A lot of universities have their CS dept. in the Liberal Arts/Arts and Sciences college, while some have it in the engineering school. Undoubtedly the Engineers make a higher wage out of college. It also depends on the city you work in (standard of living).
Work hard play harder
I've just accepted an offer for a little more than 50K a year (before taxes), in a suburb of a medium-sized city where cost of living should be relatively low. The offer is from a very large company. I'll be graduating in May with a degree in Computer Science from psu.
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Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. -- Rich Cook.
All I really know, is that the people who show up with a degree in English, and want to code, rarely work out.
If you don't mind the advice, I think the problem may lie in how you interview. It's hard to do a good interview for a programing job, especially for those of us who still consider ourselves coders, but the preperations will pay off.
I ask the usual character questions -- do you like Star Trek? Could Superman beat up Darth Vader? Do you think it's ok to put mustard on a Roast Beef sandwich? And so on. (kidding of course).
I also do a whiteboard test of language neutral tasks. Using an OO language the interviewee and I make up on the spot (syntax only of course) we build a program that can, given a list of all the flights in the US, tell you the fastest way to get from point A to point B, at any given time. If they actualy understand the math, that's even better, but I'll settle for us making progress towards a solution, and seeing their designs. I also do a Meta-language example, where we, on the whiteboard , build a Turing machine (though I don't call it that during the interview, we just talk about rules for our machine) that will be able to recognize certain things. I also will frequently run Robocode and then looking at the API with the interviewee, ask about the robot they would make.
I agree that this sort of stuff does give the CS grad an advantage -- they've probably had discrete math, and ougta understand nodes, edges and the pumping lemma. But I think that these concepts are generic enough that a person with no "formal" training can still arrive at good answers. I also think though that this reveals the CS students who can parrot what they heard but didn't "understand." I find these sort of thngs very valuable in revealing CS majors who can talk the talk, but can't code their way out of a wet paper bag. I'm not saying I've never hired a dud, but I can say (knok on wood) so far I've avoided the "negative work" employee, who is so bad it takes another developer to fix everything this 1st guy broke. As for the entry level positions, and salary, I wrote some thoughts about essential skills. If you have the skills I describe, you should take the job, and start working -- you'll get promoted quickly. And none of that has to do with a degree -- it's attitude.
in fact, like backov, I'm wary of too much education --if you have a BS and an MS in CS I'm wary of you. I'll want to know why you didn't go work right away with a BS. If you have a BS in CS, I'm gonna want to know what programs you made for yourself, for pleasure, and not for school. You should have a simple website somewhere too. PLEASE have a web site somewhere. If you don't have your resume available from your home page, along with a few other docs, you won't do well in this field. And if you're just out of college, you should have a student web page right? Finally, you probably know if you're a star or not. If you are indeed a star, take the job if it's cool, and don't worry about the money. Learn from the greybeards around, and realize that you're gonna fly the coop soon enough anyway. Most developers get their best raises by constantly switching jobs. If you're not a star, friggin RECOGNIZE that, and embrace your roll as a "behind th
Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm
Two points:
1. The waiter has practically no career path to follow. The higher base pay you perceive is partial compensation for this fact. A waiter's salary will not quadruple over the coming decade. They will not become the chef, nor will he likely get to manage the restaurant.
2. My current role includes interviewing developers and making hiring recommendations. Our finding is always that a CompSci degree does not qualify you for a software engineering job. Although some of our developers have a CompSci background, none of them use it in day-to-day work. The mindset and skillset of a software engineer is quite different.
Sometime around the end of June, when my first performance review was due, a memo went out. The bonus plan was becoming an annual payout at the fiscal year-end, instead of quarterly, and it was going to be half cash, half stock options. Much grumbling, but in the economy of late 2001, having a job was better than not having one.
Then right after September 11 (October 2, in fact), a bunch of us got laid off. The bonus-payout issue was raised. We were told (this is priceless) that a memo had gone out the day before, but our team hadn't gotten it because our project manager had forgotten to distribute it to us. The alleged memo said that effective with the last quarter (the first one where the deferred-bonus plan was in effect), all bonus payout was to be annual, at the end of the fiscal year, but now it would be all stock options.
Essentially what they did was, in stages and retroactive to the previous two quarters, convert a quarterly cash bonus retroactively to an annual stock-option award. That didn't sit well with me, and with the "keeping my job" incentive removed, I decided to see what my options were.
To make a long story short, the Virginia Department of Labor & Industry agreed with my interpretation, that since no employee signed any paperwork acknowledging the change in the bonus plan, the original offer letter's terms should stand. That I know of I'm the only person who fought them on this, but they didn't make me sign a confidentiality agreement so I made sure my co-workers knew. By the last day of December 2001 I had in my hand a check for 10% of my salary (6 months' worth of bonus) minus my relocation expenses. I probably could have quibbled over the meaning of "leave" versus "involuntarily terminated without cause", but by then I needed the money rather badly.
Get all the terms of your employment up front, in writing, and keep that paperwork safe!
-- Old Man Kensey
I have no problem competing with foreign workers and foreign companies. That's competition ...
:-(
BUT when those workers start coming here (U.S.) in DROVES and diluting the marketplace, thus driving down salaries (supply and demand) that's where I draw the line. H1Bs have been coming here for years, 65+thousand of them per year. The market for programmers is shrinking and more and more jobs are being moved offshore and they're STILL allowing H1Bs in?!?!
Beam me up Scotty!!!
There are people with masters degrees or better with 6+ years of college starting below $30k teaching. It will take them 10 or more years to get what you are being offered now. If you think you can make that amount waiting tables then do it and see what you can get waiting tables a year from now. I bet you it will be a down hill ride.
Now take the IT job at $40k and shop yourself around once you have a year of job experience. Your first job always pays low but you are not going to spend your whole career at that first job. Starting out you're going to want to move every couple of years. Doing that you will see huge jumps in salary. You're better off thinking of your first job as just another year of education.
You don't want to come out of college with the attitude that you've done 4 years and deserve more. Because you don't. You deserve the market value for an entry level programmer. Once you have a resume with some amazing feats then you can say you deserve more and hopefully you will get it if you shop yourself around.
'Same speed C but faster'
The company and the work should be 90% of your decision, salary 10%. You are an unproven "commodity" if you like the work you're being hired to do and the company is solid financially and in how it treats its employees take the job. Eventually, your demonstrated performance will drive your salary. - Interesting and challenging work makes you happy. - A good company treats you fairly. - Good performance is the best job security. Good luck jamej
You can't have my break. I'm keeping it so I'll have something to fall back on when dealing with illiterates. All the poster was saying was that his chosen profession requires a somewhat higher degree of knowledge and sophistication than waiting tables at the local Cracker Barrel.
In my experience as a CS undergrad, people who harp on their "twenty years of coding" and go out of their way to denigrate formal education are the sort who get insecure around people who actually know what an algorithm is.
But let's put our respective insecurities aside for a moment. You don't know anything about this guy, except you know he's dismayed that entry level coders are being offered $8-10/hr for their services. I'm dismayed too. That's about the amount I earned both as a construction worker and as a telemarketer.
I'm not sure what your deal is about community college graduates. I did my time at the community college before transferring to the University. The classes were cheaper, the instruction was comparable, and both scenes offered students ranging from very smart to very un-smart. I certainly wouldn't reject an entry level applicant on the basis of having come from the wrong school. But I do see a couple of differences between the two:
1) There are classes and degrees at a university that a community college simply don't have the ability to provide. My community college offered nothing beyond an A.S.
2) There's no actual research going on at most community colleges, hence no opportunities for students to participate in said research.
So is it the chance to participate in research that turns the CS University grads into "complete wastes of time?" Or is it the extra two years studying compilers, operating systems, algorithms and data structures, graphics, numerical analysis, and AI that saps them of their potential?*
If you would be so kind as to go beyond the inflammatory one-liners, and describe your dealings with the products of modern education in some degree of detail, I'm sure your perspective would be quite helpful to us young'uns. You know, things like, "What sort of tasks did you ask these new employees to perform?" "What sort of knowledge did you assume they already possessed?" "What sort of personality conflicts emerged, and why?" "Was their code any good?" "Was the problem that they didn't learn what they were taught in school, or that the material being taught isn't suited to the realities of software production?"
Somehow, I expect another one-liner instead. But I can always hope.
* This is actually a pretty good summary of my degree program. I feel fortunate, because it appears to be one of the better ones.
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
I am an Electronics Engineer working for a small company in Bangalore ( yeah...INDIA). The job involves designing circuits, testing , coding for controllers etc. After two and half years I get paid about 14,000 rupees per month ( about $311.11). The current situation in bangalore for a starting tech job in an MNC is about 20,000 Rs/month ($444.44). My skillsets are pretty good I can get into an MNC where I will get paid about 30,000 Rs. why I am sticking with this job?? I pretty much enjoy it, most of my friends are into big companies (Indian & MNC), and i get to know that money is good but not much of a job satisfaction. well with the kinda salary I am getting now, though can't lead a luxrious life, but am happy with what ever I am able to. The reason I am sticking with this job is it offers tremendous growth. I have developed lots of new skillsets in a variety of fields. To be realistic.. I will not stick with this job for long. My point is, If you are a fresh graduate, look for a job that gives you a chance for a good growth in your field of interest and develops varied skillsets. For a few years you can work for a low pay. This can act as a insurance for your future. I forgot to mention my salary dues are over 6 months now.
I've seen people say this lots of times: "Unless you went to an Ivy League school, no one cares what college you went to."
My question is, does going to an Ivy League school (as I do) actually help in getting jobs?
I am in the same boat. So here is my situation. I hope to be getting a call on Monday about a web programmer position that I want really bad. It will most likely start out at $27K. I live in the Mid-Ohio Valley so living on that is not a problem. The way I see it, in the current times, if you have a job in your field of interest and are learning things and expanding your knowledge, you are in good shape. Good luck!
Preach it brother! I second every word of that flamebait post!
Maybe you didn't keep up with the news the last couple of years, but there's a crisis here in the US when it comes to programming jobs. Surely you would have changed your major after your sophomore year if you had been reading SlashDot... People with a lot more experience than you, and a lot more education than you are unemployed at the moment. Seeing as there are programmers in India (with more education and more experience than you) that are willing to work for $22000/year, and companies here know that (and $22000 is upper-middle class in India), consider yourself fortunate to find a job for $40000/year. Of course you can probably make more money fixing PCs on the side and converting small businesses to Linux...but then, you could do that without a college degree, couldn't you...
Pay off your house. If it's allowed in your state, homestead it.
You forget that once the house is paid off, you'll have more to invest. Plus, when tough times hit(they will) you won't have to worry about loosing your house. If neccessary, you can get a night job to pay taxes. Double your payment, we're talking about 7 years.
So instead of getting 3% total for thirty years(10% gain,minus the 7% spent on mortgage) you get 10% starting 7 years from now. Much better 30 years down the road.
Now some people will suggest you can write off the interest, for those people I remind them:
1) the percentage only comes off your gross, you do not get all the interest back.
2) You will save more throughout the year without a house payment, then you will by getting a larger return at the end of the year.
Also, buy the most expensive house you can afford, buy the cheapest car you can get away with.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Get experience, get marketable abilities, then move the hell along when you want more money... or perhaps let them discover how much you are worth to them.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
And here I am thrilled because I'm moving up from $7/hr to $8/hr. I really need to finish this whole education thing....
--The universe will not be altered by forum threads, even those which are very wry. --Tycho Brahe (Penny Arcade)
end of year federl/state was less then 10% for me when I made 65K per year. I itemized, and wrote of my mortgage interest.
plus about 8% on things that weren't 'neccessities'.
I paid 1100 dollars for mortgae for a condo in Huntington beach, 3 miles from the beach. Neighborhood was nice, I had a 2 children when we moved. Of course, I sold the condo for 180K, so that same house today would be about 1400, but I was making 35K when I bought it.
So, either you are just making shit up, or your an imbecile, you decide.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Take stability and longterm.
Write now, I would be happy to go back to writting clipper code, if I had some security that the company was going to be around until I retire.
As long as I don't have to work 60 hours every week and week ends. I do it when its called, but I got kids in soccor, swimming, learnig how to write, and paint, and play music.
I'll take unhappy at work anytime if it means more time at home.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
i also have a years worth of developing experience.
i've gotten one offer for $37k after sending out my resume to about 30 local places.
education and grades means squat.
in the end, it was the experience that got me the job.
I wouldn't normally point out grammer mistakes, but since you are bragging about your high salary, and saying grades may have something to do with it, I feel I must.
'their' is possesive. You mean 'There are reasons'.
Here is some info on Indian salary rates for entry-level programmers. Computer science graduates are not paid any better (there are exceptions) than other engineering graduates (yes..even mechanical graduates) In an Indian IT company (TCS, Infosys) one can expect around 18000 rupees ($400) a month. For MNCs (IBM, Accenture), it would be a bit higher at around $500 per month. Why this difference? - you are less likely to be laid off (yes, we too have layoffs) in Indian companies. $400 means around $4800 a year. Horrible by US standards, but in a country where you can get a 200ml Coke for Rs.5 (12 cents), I guess it is ok.
This is computer-generated and does not require a signature.
I think you're missing the point: You won't be waiting tables!
I graduated in 2000 with a degree in computer science.
I've been waiting tables ever since.
If you enjoy working with software and computers, you should take that into consideration.
If you enjoy serving people and taking orders, well then, I think you know which career you should choose.
-Steve
Working hard and learning are two different things.
Right, but they're not mutually exclusive. Often, they go hand-in-hand.
I know some students at Caltech that are working very hard, but at the same time learn very little.
So what are you trying to say with this statement? That Caltech doesn't teach students anything?
I knew plenty of students at my school who didn't learn much or do much work. They failed out of the program.
In the end, just knowing someone has a college degree does not mean too much.
Sure it does. It means plenty. It's absolutely stupid to think it doesn't.
I just amazed. Would you suggest we just say "fuck it" and leave all our education off our resumes?
"Sure you have a doctorate in radar engineering, but you only have two years work experience. I'm going to hire this guy who's been doing stereo installs for Best Buy for the last five years to design my multi-million radar system."
Sure a degree isn't everything but it fucking matters. That's my point.
The post I was replying to said the "in the real world" degrees are meaningless. That's a crock of shit, plain and simple.
Work experience is important, but so is education. Sure you can find examples of people with degrees who don't know what the hell they're doing, but you can find people with twenty years of work experience in a particular field who are also blatantly incompetent. Does this means we should dispense with resumes altogether?
Of course not.
They are a valid, useful method for looking at a person's accomplishments. A degree is one of those accomplisments.
The logic I'm seeing from you and the original post I was replying to would allow someone to say that pretty much ANY accomplisment is meaningless.
Life is too short to proofread.
"Will Code For Food"
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
I'm also graduating in May, and I've found that a lot of the big name companies out there (MS, Google, Amazon) are offering over $70K for an entry-level software engineering position. The job I've decided on comes with a $78K salary, and the runner-up was paying $74K. And let's not forget about the moving bonus and other benefits. =)
Some previous posters were quoting $50-$60K for other major companies, like Intel and HP, but I find this a little hard to believe. How could they get away with paying $20K less than another company that's 5 minutes away and attracting the exact same candidates?
The important thing with these companies is to get your foot in the door. If you're a talented programmer and you read a few of those programming interview prep books, I think it would be pretty hard not to get a good-paying job. Just be enthusiastic, show confidence (not arrogance), and study those prep books as if you've got an exam for school.
I graduated with a double major in both computer science and mathematics last june.
My Major GPA was 4.0
Total gpa was 3.96
I have YET to get a job offer for a computer programming position. Any position. Even database work.
I am qualified.
I cant find work. I am even willing to move anywhere. In this time, take what you can wherever you can and hope some better times come along.
Does anyone work for the challenge these days? I mean when did money truly make someone content in a job? Is there no satisfaction in doing amazing work?
Hey Guys, my 2 cents... 45K is not a bad starting salary for someone with a Bsc in computer science.... I recently got a job as an assistant professor of computer science (a position that requires a phd in comp sci.) I make 76K as base and 16 as summer pay - total of 92k. I know that google pays approximately 100K to people with a phd in comp sci.
I know from experience in universities that bsc's can't actually do all that much (sorry, but this is often reality!) they are not that well educated; this means that companies often pay higher to masters or phd's. This is due to the fact that there are a lot of those around after the IT marked crashed. if you have been offered 45-50k TAKE IT AND be happy you got a job!!!
I've worked for the past 8 months as the tech for a bank, having graduated nearly a year ago with a degree in Computer Science and every damn honor my college was allowed to bestow on me. I have written many many thousands of lines of code for 'fun', although I haven't kept track so it could just as well be millions. I started at $33k and got a raise to $36k after 6 months. With the hours I end up working, though, that averages out to about $12/hour.
But the sun is shining through - I am currently tendering more than one offer in the $45/hour range, and the contract is short enough that I can still get more education starting in the fall if the sun isn't still shining.
Moral of the story: Take what you can get. You need a paycheck so you can get situated and out of the college lifestyle. Eventually, a real opportunity will knock.
I am not saying that a degree is meaningless or useless, only that looking at a person's degree alone is a mistake. No matter how tough or well known the school is, there are people that get through the degree program without gaining much. The same goes for work experience.
Having a degree will get your foot in the door, but when it comes down to picking a person to hire, I would be looking at what the person studied and what projects they worked on. You can have one person from MIT who only took the minimum course load, and another from a state school that took extra things and worked on a related research team during the summers. They both have degrees, but the latter probably would be better for the job (assuming they held up in an interview). The important thing is not the degree itself, but what the people had been doing with it, either during their schooling, or after it. It is not that piece of paper that will get you a job, it is whatever skills you picked up while earning that piece of paper.
Pride is my #1 goal, if it'll pay the bills. Currently, I work to pay my tuition. I find web work comperable to washing dishes at a nice restaurant. Sounds great, but thats often about it. Sure, I get an exciting project once and a while, but I've written enough webscripts that I've made macros for the job just to make it interesting.
In the past, I worked the same job for 50k a year. I had a helluvalot less to worry about in life, and by god, I was happy. It ended only up being a paid vacation; I dicked off the money and moved back home to get a degree. Now I work freelance.
If you're graduating in May and have ANY job offers in this economy in Comp Sci, you should be ecstatic... There's plenty of experienced people who can't get an interview, much less a job. Stop whining and get over it. Maybe 4-5 years ago you could make 45-55k with a Comp Sci bachelors and no experience, but not today.
...the going rate for a programmer with a Master's Degree and two years of working experience (typically in some game start-up) is around US$2,400 per year.
;-)
Of course, in Chengdu you can get a pretty good box lunch for $0.50, and some companies will provide housing (dorm-style)
I have a friend there who is hiring. If you are interested, I will pass your resume on to him. But I should warn you that there is a lot of competition.
Moving ahead, your most important decision could be "Do I prefer Indian food or Chinese food?"
If the job you can get pays bad but has a good superiour/senior developer and cool projects in the pipeline - take it. I personally wouldn't want an entry into the field with reasonable to good payment but a team and company that are a pain.
Once you've gotten yourself some respect-time, you can allways shift your priorities into a steep career track or - if you're passionate about IT - into a freelance career. The latter is what I did and I must say I really enjoy it. I don't earn more (actually rather less at the moment) but I don't have a sucker for a boss who won't listen to what I say in my field of expertise. I can focus on the things I like to do (Linux / OSS) and the rest of the time I can consider if I'm in a squeeze and need the money or if I can turn down a bad job.
Bottom Line: If the pay is fine for what you need and the job looks interessting: take it. Don't compare to much with others on salary only.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
good judgement comes from experience.
:-)
experience comes from bad judgement.
so, go and make some mistakes somewhere
-- All your bass are below two Hz
I know how you feel. However, things may not be as good as they used to be for the computer field. Let me tell you that even considering costs of life and all that stuff, I believe an IT job in the US is still very salary-attractive. I have worked in the Us and then moved to Europe, and believe me it is not the same feeling. You have spent four years of college and you friends that even did not go to college are making more money than you, plus thay have been doing it for four more years than you. Some people tell me, at least you won't get your hands dirty! Hmmm yeah, that is the reason I did it, I guess, not to dirty my hands.
my advise to the original poster - consider the offers you did get and take the best one. then, continue casually looking for a new job. every time you move from one job to another is an opportunity to improve your position and/or salary. obviously, don't quit every two weeks, but don't feel that you're making a lifetime comittment. especially at the beginning of your career - that is a good time to make moves.
.com boom where fresh grads get huge salaries is gone. i'm personally fine with it because less people will go into IT purely for the money. Those of us left, who actually like the work, will have jobs available to us.
despite all the doom and gloom here on slashdot, i have found that there is still a demand, and it is still easily possible for a quality developer to make a good living. however, the days of the
I have had the misfortune to work with people who went into software development just for the money. It sucks to work with those who don't care. Those are the ones who are now suffering the most because they never did quality work and were overpaid. Our current economic situation is a blessing in disguise for people serious about IT. Things will even out, though. It is still a valuable skilled trade.
TODO: come up with a clever sig
With the current job market in the US, suck it up and take whatever they'll give you.
I started at $12 an hour and supplement my "job" with side consulting at $50-$75 / hour (depending on how well I know the client).
Programmers are the production line workers of the 21 Century. It's not programmers that are needed but software engineers and the two terms are not synonyms. Software engineers analyse the problem, create designs and document them, create models (e.g. UML), use patterns, define APIs, integrate existing software components and the like. Once you've done all that properly the rest is just a mechanical process that any reasonably competant individual should be able to undertake. You need some management skills, design skill and a good general knowledge of technologies and software engineering concepts.
The company I work for has outsourced some of it's programming requirement. This has indirectly sorted the software engineers from the programmers in house. For a typical project we now carry out requirements analysis, an iterative design approach resulting in a detailed model and documentation and often framework code. The then whole thing goes to our outsources so they can do the boring bit, filling in the blanks.
(from Deconstructing Harry)
[TMB]
We have been trying to hire a new person for months (UK here chapies).
Of all the several hopefuls only one more less is up to standards (and then people ask why jobs are being outsourced elsewhere).
When I got my job (yeah, pesky foreigner) iw went unfilled for 6 months.
Now tell me it is an employers' market. I just don't believe that is the case for people with something to offer to the industry.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
My first proper IT job paid 13'000 GBP a year. For that I was a part of a three man team maintaining 8 Servers + 70 users. I was the DBA and rewrote all internal systems for the Y2k Bug. Personally I wouldn't complain, from this point on you gain commercial experience. Which is worth twice the time you spent at Uni.
monster.com
Yes the Euro is high compared to what it used to be. But that is no reason, in itself, that it will not go higher.
America has a huge trade decifit. This makes the dollar drop in value. However, China has pretty much financed the reckless American economic policy by buying American Dollar. If China had not done this the dollar would be a lot less worth.
The reason China buys American Dollar is that they do not want a too low dollar, as this makes it hard to sell Chinese goods in America.
If China has a change of policy and stops buying Dollar, the Dollar will soon be a lot less worth.
On the other hand, there is a lot of talk about America raising there interest rate. This will lead to a higher Dollar, as American bonds becomes more attractive to foreign investors.
Which way will it go? I do not know. But just because Euro is high compared to what it used to be, is no reason that it will not go even higher. Especially, if the current economic policy of America is continued.
So how much is the "Ivy-league bump", anyway?
As a HR professional (HR consultant, specialized in pay/reward systems) I might be able to give you a funded answer. However my data is limited to the Dutch labour market 2003/4.
First, a person 'fresh' from college might be very promising for an employer. However, the employer cannot be sure. In the typical Dutch situation you will be offered a short-term labour contract (3 months, up to 1 year) with a yearly salary of roughly 25000 to 30000 euro's mainly depending on how profitable the business is (Your CV, experience, personalilty do matter for finding a job, base salary is often more depending on the success of the business)
This salary is before taxes, etc. You will probably get 1200-1500 euro's a month and a yearly holiday benefit of roughly a little less than your monthly payment.
The thing with graduated employees is, if you fit into the business and your performance is reasonably well, you will get a more secure labour contract and your salary will grow 10% a year (average) for about 4 years. After that your salary is more depending on career-motivation, employee-employer-fit, business success, etc.
My first thing of advice would be: Ask yourself who you are and ask yourself in wich environement you fit best. Look for people, not salary. Even the type of work is not easy to select on. Keep an open mind for different work. After a year you can tell for sure if you like your work (mostly).
I hope my comment is helpful.
Daïm
4 years ago you listened to your counsellers, the same people who were telling everybody that IT was the future, the same as they have been saying for the last 6 years or so.
Your in a buyers market now, the employer has a few years worth of grads to choose from now.
Which city is your company located? what skills are you looking for? what career paths are available? and how much are you offering? How much does it cost to buy/rent a flat/house in a safe residential area? And what is the maximum age limit you are considering for a software engineer?
I would consider 30K to be excellent for the North of England, but awful for Edinburgh, London, the Home Counties and the South coast.
A salary is based on several factors:
Here's the list, weighted to a reasonable approximation:
1) How intelligent you are: 0%
2) How hard you work: 2%
3) How much education you have: 3%
4) How much experience you have: 5%
5) How much responsibility you have: 90%
Keep in mind that in America $1.80 for a gallon of gas is considered highway robbery...
In America there is no VAT (though often state sales taxes run around 6-8% or so - varies).
In America the tax rate can vary a great deal based on your deductions - things like mortage interest, student loans, giving to charity, and having kids can greatly change your tax bill. It is probably hardest on those right out of college (who also have to try to save up to buy a home in a quickly inflating housing market - that is if they live anywhere near a job).
I am also graduating with a degree in CS in may. I work as an intern at a government job. As of May 10, I become a full-fledged employee, and they are going to pay me as a GS-9 step 4, which is a little over 50,000 a year, plus some pretty good benefits. I get 2 days leave and 2 more days sick leave a month (it'll go up after a couple of years), a good dental, medical, vision, retirement, 401k plan I can opt into (it costs a little but not bad). After I've completed 30 months of training, I get raised to a GS-12 Step 1, which is a little closer to 70,000 a year. Of course, that is a government job. The contractors that work for us generally only pay their programmers $15.00 an hour or so right out of college. Perhaps you should try civil service. They alwasy seem to be in need of electrical engineers and computer scientists.
I would have to say one thing not to forget is that Cost of living varies. A $20.00/hour job in WI isn't to bad at all. Considering that a 4 bedroom house is between 100k to 200k. It really depends on where you are living.
It was crummy money but I tripled it in less than 5 years in the early 80's.
The bottom line is that money is less important than experience. If you get pigeon-holed writing some dead language like QuickJob or StruBASIC for better money, you don't win. Take less money to get the experience that will pay off in a few years. You want to use in-demand languages in in-demand application areas. Screw the money. Having fun is more important than fun.
I remember being at the beach and calling my bigshot CPA buddies at their office all weekend to rag on them. Or my ex who was pounding RPG code in a mill somewhere. Their response was always "Yeah but I'll be a VP when I am 40" which got them "Yeah but you'll still be OLD just like me".
Take the hot job with the hot skillset and have fun.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
I think the original poster had no experience, other than internships. That's not a bad place to be, but I'd guess 45k, tops, outside of NY.
"Laughing hysterically"? well, maybe. That first job is the hardest to crack, acting like a maniac is no real plus.
FWIW I have never taken a job for the money, after leaving uni. Oddly enough I am still within 1% of being the highest paid engineer in my businees region for my company.
Lameness filter says I have to have some non-whitespace ASCII text in here.
For anyone interested in what the rates are like, for both permanent and freelance, in most parts of the UK, you can have a look at Jobstats, which slices and dices all the data it can find on the job web sites.
Who would believe in penguins,unless he had seen them? Conor O Brien - Across Three Oceans
I've yet to see a demand-led pay case, but what the hell, our brilliant moderators seem to think that someone with more outgoings should get a higher wage. So, I learned to use a condom, now I get penalised becasue I don't have trailer-full of brats?
Cluestick: I will metamod you moron mods to newbie-.
You've got TWO offers and you haven't accepted one yet?? Unless the offers were for $10/h or less, I can see no reason for grabbing them. Maybe you don't understand the situation in this country well enough.
I graduated last May, and after interning for almost a year, working 8 hour days and then coming home and working for 5 more hours sending out resumes and practicing programming (cause I wasn't doing much of that during the day) I was really lucky to find an awesome job that pays 50K (I'm in NYC), but that's an exception. I know plenty of good, smart people that graduated from better colleges with better GPA's that were not able to find ANY job doing programming. In fact, out of everybody I know my graduating class, only one other person is also doing programming - and she gets 30/year on a government job, and couldn't be happier.
The market is THAT BAD. You must've noticed the whole 'outsourcing' thing going on, and the fact that many SENIOR programmers here in American who've been jobless for months and even years, would be happy to go for the same 40K jobs that we want.
Take the best offer you got, work your ass off, sharpen your skills, become GOOD at what you do, and you'll see money in the future, one way or the other.
While this may stray a bit from the topic at hand, it may (indirectly) help you to understand some salary-related issues. You mentioned you have a computer science degree, and yet you are inquiring about the starting salary for a software engineer. This is your first problem -- you aren't a software engineer! You aren't even an engineer. In a world where everyone is trying to get something for nothing, it's high time people started realizing that the title of "engineer" belongs to an individual who actually has an engineering degree (and nowadays, that's not even enough -- you must take a battery of certification tests as well). This practice of adding the word "engineer" to job titles (such as waste management engineer) is tired and really inappropriate. Perhaps if you ask for the starting salary for computer scientists you might get somewhere.
43.5k a year (as a programmer with a political science degree) and my friend (a computer science degree holder) started at 47.9k. We both had internships with different companies during the last two years of college, and were hired by those companies after graduation. Keep in mind, this was in summer 2000.
I just started a job with a state agency doing web dev (Java and Coldfusion) $43K + benefits + job security. Oh, and a general pay increase in July.
Government jobs rule.
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
Please. Give me a break. You sound like some troll salesdork for Merill Lynch. It takes money to make money and this "dollar cost averaging" was a ploy invented by the mutual fund industry.
Wait to save for retirement until you truly can afford it. The $100/mth means little now. Pay off your student loans first.
agreed. having your woman with you is even worse(better, whichever). i think its the fact that one of their own has put the stamp of approval on you so they dont have to check you out. its like a inspection/validation system. my wife has noticed this and gets a little closer any time any woman remotely hot walks by, hehe. i dont mind, she knows she doesnt have anything to worry about.
use your turn signal! you people act like it's divulging information to the enemy
I can point you to ~10 people on my course who never miss a lecture/tutorial and will pass their degree.
t 's do-it-again" lectures, this has no bearing on how dependable I am at work.
:o)
I can point you to ~10 people to have attended maybe 5% of their lectures/tutorials and will pass their degree.
The majority miss a few lectures/tutorials here and there and will probably pass their degree.
I'm notorious for skipping pointless "read-from-the-slides" lectures and "remember-that-thing-you-did-in-the-first-year-le
My last year, I was on placement, and I showed up at 9 every day, sometimes earlier, despite the fact I was working flexi-time. That includes one morning when I woke up at 8am on the lawn outside my flat, and another when I had to catch the first train back from London after crashing on my mate's hotel-room floor.
For some people, yes, they learn jack-shit, revise for exams that they forget about the next day, but some people do learn to learn
then take that instead. Seriously though,
define "better" for yourself. Take the
job that's better. If you're having trouble
debugging this problem they didn't teach
you the real tools you'll need for life or
programming in college.
-- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
You, like many others before you, will come to realize that unless you have old money or win the lottery, will live a dismal existence, working for pennies and totally unappreciated. Finding a good paying job these days is near to impossible. Expect to spend about 1.5 weeks working for rent. Another third of the week to line Uncle Sams pockets, another 1/3 if you want decent health care. And the rest on a disallusioned woman, thats trapped in fairy tale land, thinking you owe her , and that you should take care of her. I would say just get a job at Micky D's , grab a few 40oz and some ### . Live a happy stress free life , instead of a hair pulling, stressed , gut wrenching one.
Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit!
It goes on their version of welfare: defense and space industries. Don't forget, US military spending is more than the next five biggest spenders combined. Personally I think the Pentagon should invoice the oil companies rather the tax payers for ensuring the oil supply... then when the price at the pump goes up Americans would really understand how much oil costs them and they would start conserving which would benefit their national security immensely.
I can't remember where I read it (either the Economist or the BBC's site), but the numbers were something like the following (they might be wrong in the $ amount, but I think I'm capturing the general gist of it):
US: $300 billion
Russia: $60 billion
UK: $55B
China: $50B
France: $50B
{somebody else - maybe Japan or Germany}: $45B
Prior comments about competing against lower salaries in the world market are right on target.
I don't know if you've looked at salary.com yet, but that will give you statistical ranges of what people at a similar skill level are making in your geographic area. That will help you verify whether or not what you're being offered is within reason.
You've heard this before, but "never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals bui
I graduated in 1996 and started at $15/hour in Ohio. It's very, very cheap to live here. We just recently hired some entry level programmers and the range was about $20-$25(was really a salary position) doing standard MS desktop and web apps. We ended up hiring the guy in at $48k/year with 2 weeks vacation and full benefits. At least in our area things are picking up and demand is again outweighing the supply of programmers here. It's hard for a lot of the entry and low level guys to compete though because there are still a lot of experienced programmers out there out of work.
Statistical poverty is regularly pegged at 20% below the mean in any area. There is no reason to accept, with a college degree in the relevant field, poverty-level wages. If the mean is $62.5k and they offer $27k, no amount of negotiating skills is going to bridge that gap--and they've been insulting. Armed with the appropriate salary ranges--you know, what the guy ASKED FOR in his post--is the surest way to be confident in demanding reasonable compensation. This isn't being noble and not "taking a job for the money," it's just being informed about the point at which you are being taken for the money or lack thereof. At a certain point, laughter is in fact the most appropriate and productive response--and being offered less than $15/hour for a $35/hour job is certainly a good time to employ it as you haven't a snowball's chance in hell of negotiating a doubling of the offer.
When I was hired as an associate software engineer five years ago right out of college, my pay was $45K + benefits. Before that, as a student aide, I was paid $14/hr. Another student aide with more skills was paid $19/hr. Most software engineers where I work now make around $55K + benefits. Sr. SW engineers make around $65K, and the top SW engineers make something over $80K. This is what Honeywell pays in the midwest.
Because I'm just as likely to make them (or speling mistakes :-)
But then, I had a crappy GPA.
Do you agree that (mean-20%) is a meaningless definition of poverty?
Not arguing, just asking.
For instance, if I were a single bloke sharing a house with 3 others, in an upmarket housing estate, our individual incomes would be what, half?, of those around us, in their mortgaged hutches.
Yet we were the ones with Lotii, TR4s, down the pub every night, foreign holiday every 3 months, while they stayed in and drove their Mini Metros to work and looked forward to their monthly visit to the flicks and a cheap Biriani afterwards.
Money is their game. Career satisfaction can be yours. You choose.
well 4 years ago i was offered 19,000 British Sterling as a programmer straight from University.
There has been downward pressure and salary increase limits (2-3%) since 2001.
Boston is a very expensive area to live in. In other parts of the country, I would expect less, so $40K does not seem terrible to start, depending on the location. In Boston, SF, LA, NY, or other expensive metro areas, it seems a little low.
My initial starting salary in 1989, in Boston for BBN (Bolt, Beranek, & Newman), was $32K, which was completely average at the time.
Adjusted for inflation using the CPI since 1989, an equivalent starting salary would be $46,792 - in Boston. Again, assuming your location is someplace less expensive, 15% less is not unreasonable.
Of course, you can always try to negotiate upwards, but as a new college grad, you don't have much leverage. Show your enthusiasm for the job and be polite in telling them what your expectation was. Maybe try to negotiate for non-monetary compensation like more vacation.
Try to get them to agree to doing an accelerated salary review (like 6 months or even 3 months) - it can backfire, but you need to take some of the risk.
You are also going to see lower salaries for jobs where there is a lot of talent (ie 2D GUI, databases). From a starting salary, you may also be able to get a relatively large raise (10%) the first couple of years.
If money is an issue and the raises are bad the first 2 years, (and assuming you are a top 10% developer), you probably need to move to a different company to bump up your salary, or at least make a credible threat to do so.
I live and work in Boston where cost of living, particularly housing, is fairly high. In 2001, my starting salary was $65k, but I had worked for the same company as a coop student since '97, so they already had an opportunity to see me work. I think the best thing is to have good references and a network to draw on.
I would say you have to look at what your situation is and what your plans are. Do you plan to get married anytime soon? Kids? Is your partner going to work? Do you want to buy a home? What kind of neighborhood do you want to live in? All of these things factor in to how much you should be asking for. If you can't get what your lifestyle is going to demand, then you may have to look at relocating to somewhere that has a lower cost of living.
Obviously, the art of negotiation is important. Don't be afraid to ask for more money if you feel that you are worth it. Worth, however, is a function of both supply and demand. You may be very talented but if you are looking for work in an area where there are a lot of very talented people looking for work, then you may not be able to command as high a salary.
More important is career development. Before taking a job, ask yourself this. Will this job look good on my resume a year from now? Is this job taking me in the direction that I want to go?
In my first post college graduation computer job, I was earning about half what I am earning today.
My response to the doctor: Bzzt, wrong. The guy went to the "wrong" hospital. You have to go to the correct Austin hospital to get into ER without insurance. Furthermore, last time I checked, malpractice rates for doctors have NOT gone down since Prop 12 was passed, contrary to what the Industry promised. Why? Because the real problem is that the Texas Board of Medical Examiners doesn't do its job: revoking the licenses of quacks who drive up the rates for everyone else. It only takes a few to make the risk pool go waaaay up for every other doctor (thus, increasing costs).
Pissed and offtopic,
-l
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Negotiate your ass off to get as high in the range as possible. Many grads don't want to be rude so they don't press companies on their offers. A common attitude of students is "Oh well, I might be coming in at 45K instead of 50K but after I start working, the company will see how valuable I am and bump me up to where I belong."
A word of advice: They won't.
What I've seen is that everyone gets the same raise +/- a couple of percentage points so the spread between the people who were hired low and the people who were hired high just keeps growing. The difference between developer A hired in at $45000 and developer B hired in at $55000 might be $10000 at the start but, assuming they each get a 5% raise each year, that gap grows to $13000 by year 5. The lower your starting salary, the larger the amount you will be underpaid the whole time you work for that company.
When violence rules the world outside / And the headlines make me want to cry / It's not the time to just keep quiet
No, it's not. The nationwide mean is only about $13/hour, which after taxes is scarcely $23k per year. That's fine in Boise, but if you have "3 single blokes" living in an "upmarket estate" and their COMBINED take home is $69k, you're in fantasyland if you think you'll be taking a "foreign holiday" every three months, unless you count walking to Tijuana from San Diego as "going abroad."
If your income is less than roughly 2/3 of the population in your area, it's a safe bet to assume you are "poor," locally speaking. As you have so keenly pointed out, your level of happiness has no relation to your economic status. It's irrelevant. So person X is rich and miserable, person Y is poor and elated. That doesn't change the fact that X is "rich" and Y is "poor." The fact that Y would be considered "rich" if moved someplace 5000 miles away is equally as useless if they're starving where they are now. If they happen to be happy despite their conditions, they're still freakin' broke, man.
A friend of mine is that I went to college with before I dropped out of school is still looking for a starting IT job. Why would someone who finished their 4 year Comp Science degree from an accredited university be looking for a job? He has the skills to do the job, but I know from experience that his social skills are rather lacking. These days it takes not only the knowledge, but it takes being bold and outgoing as well. The best he has done is working for the number 1 retailer as a cashier. I left school after two years and with my background landed a job at a Fortune 50 retailer.
Starting salary is negotiable. Part of getting what you want is the attitude you have. You can't just go into an interview and let them have 100% of the control with things. You have to be assertive and confident. If they start talking figures to you, or ask you how much you want, there is an appropriate answer. "I am negotiable, send me an offer and we will discuss it." Larger companies will make you an offer and if you don't like the offer, counter offer. If it's extremely low, then your chances of getting a decent amount out of them is slim.
I have worked in smaller startup companies before. The job security and pay is usually less. If you are interested in a larger company, they may start you out paying less than some nitch startups, but the experience can be extremely valuable. I have heard many times at my company that a resume didn't stand out as much because the person has never had any experience with a larger corporation.
One other thing to keep in mind is that you should always be upfront and honest when dealing with companies. I have sat through other peoples interviews with my team and some of the stories I have are rather entertaining. I still don't see how someone could associate IPC coding with sending database information from a VAX/VMS system, but I digress... Just make sure that you tell then the truth when they ask questions. If they ask you "Do you know how to use IPC coding?", then unless you can tell them about shared memory and messaging queues, or at least what IPC stands for, then say "I am not sure." You will find larger companies will more likely ask you some in-depth technical questions while interviewing. These days, I am a little weary of companies that don't.
root 10956 5164 0 Oct 22 - 0:23 sendmail: rejecting connections: load average: 70 (isn't sendmail just too kind)
You'll probably be able to do better than that, but you will have to pay dues. There's no getting around it.
I get paid a reasonable salary now, and my pay has increased steadily over time (for the most part). The most important thing for you to do right now is make contacts. Make sure you get people's business cards and keep in touch with them when you leave a job. They are worth more than their weight in gold (the cards I mean. The people eat too much).
WWJD? JWRTFA!
"So far I have gotten two job offers which I am thankful for, but the salary seems low."
Welcome to the real world...
I was talking from personal experience.
We were on about 5000 pounds a year, each, fresh out of uni, one year into our careers. Our neighbours would have been 30-40 year old senior engineers, supervisors or managers, with mortgages and families.
Guessing that the relativity between wages still held true then (I see no reason why not, within 3 years I doubled my pay), that would have put them on at least 2 to 2.5x as much as us.
You can argue with me taking foreign holidays, fair enough can't prove it. I took them. I had the TR4. Housemate Paul had a Lotus Eclat. Can't remember what the other two had, not very interesting.
I'm not sure what to expect straight out of college but just to give you perspective I'm a lead Java architect with 7 years of experience and I'm making $55K per year in Atlanta, GA.
I mostly feel lucky to have a job.....
I know recient grads that are being offered $45K per year. I also have high level friends making much more than this. They are about to loose their jobs to outsourcing though......
A few suggestions. Keep your cost of living low, your salary expectations humble, and try and work with an offshore team. Yup. That's right. Why you might ask? Because most business folks are smart enough not to fire all of the US programmers. Someone is needed to manage that offshore team from a technical perspective right?
And believe me, after most folks first offshore experience they will see the value in having a local technical manager for the project.
Globalization is going to continue. There is no way to hold it back. The smartest thing we can do in the US is to increase our worth as employees. Pay attention to the market and move with it's demands.
My 2c's.
Good luck!
--
Dan Glauser
J2EE Architect
http://www.roundboxmedia.com
"Also, buy the most expensive house you can afford"
This is the most common advice I hear given to first time home buyers and it is among the worst financial advice to receive. DO NOT buy the most expensive house you can afford.
I know a lot of people who followed this advice and ended up house poor because their financial circumstances changed and yet they're still locked into an investment that's not liquid.
Most of these people found themselves screwed because they bought as big as house as they could afford and then suddenly realized that when they wanted to have children their house payment was holding them hostage: one of you want to stay home with the kids? sorry, got the mortage to pay.
Also due to the dip in the economy many of these people found themselves without a job. Whoops. Again, their high house payments meant they ability to respond financially (say by taking a lower paying job for a while) was compromised because they couldn't or didn't want to sell their house and at the same time they couldn't afford to take a job that wouldn't allow them to make payments!
When you're looking for a house location is more important than the current price or the square footage. Ideally you should be looking for a house in the lower range of a nice neighborhood; some place where you're not going to find a gas station or a fast food joint across from your back yard some morning.
As for the folks claiming the only advantage in having a house is the tax deduction, don't forget that:
1) You're not paying rent
2) Your house may appreciate in value as well.
Jared
iSalary = LIVING_WAGE - 1
While Not bReadyToQuit
Salary = Salary - 1
Wend
Salary = Salary +
--- Generation X: The first generation to have SIG lines inferior to their parents... ---
High Consumption != Wealth
Period.
The parent is clearly English. So yea for him a "foreign holiday" could very well be as easy as a train ride to Paris.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Just a data point: I graduated college with a BSEE degree in fall 1988 and started working pretty much the first of the year in 1989. My starting salary working in the Chicago area was $32k. Using the Consumer Price Index Inflation Calculator that works out to about $47k in 2003 dollars.
At the time $32k was considered slightly above average for starting pay for an engineer. On the other hand, engineers were in higher demand then. These days I'd think $40k would be about average.
According to this Salary Wizard the US national average pay for a "Software Engineer I" is $52,364. Take that however you want. It sounds pretty high to me.
Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
I advise you to choose the job that will bring the most value in your resume. Invest in yourself. The first experience in your resume is as important as your education for any recruiter.
Good Luck
...especially because of the proliferation of fair employment bills and the like. Canada actually tried to implement a Universal Classification System across ALL government position in the entire frickin' country.
Of course, after $1 billion or so, it failed. But in the meantime they did standardize a hell of a lot of salaries. You can negotiate what level you start at based on your experience, and occasionly get a double increment if you have a good year, but otherwise the increments are standardized.
Thankfully, I don't get paid in Rupees :)
Finding a happy medium is good.
Startups suck - you can build skills fast, but don't expect free time, although pay is often better. Make sure any startup has a solid business plan and sounds like it could be successful (or you won't get the 2+ years of experience most companies ask for).
Big companies suck - I've worked for two of them (both through buyouts). They are only concerned with the bottom line and appeasing investors, so keeping the employees happy is secondary. At one company, I went from 2x/year company parties, a company picnic, release parties and dinners, machines replaced every 2 years, great benefits and an extremely flexible schedule to basically none of that (and we were still raking in dough, but our buyers used it to pad their bottom line). We fund company parties ourselves through an employee operated snack room and are running 4-7 year old machines mainly purchased before the buyout. A recent sell-off of my division will hopefully help, but seriously, check perks. One large company I worked for wouldn't even supply coffee...
What does the position entail and what are you looking for in a candidate? How many applicants have there been?
What you're saying sounds completely incongruous with what my fellow soon-to-be-graduates and I are facing. A friend of mine graduated last year, spent 8 months temping at 118 118 and is only now is she doing something related to computing,(and *that* involves rebuilding PCs, stuff that a school-leaver could probably do) despite being a very capable programmer.
So...what's the job?
With so many people out of work and here you are complaining about getting 2 job offers right out of school that won't pay "enough"? I wonder what the offers were for. Out of college I wasn't being paid much at all.
Admittedly, it is hard to eat on professional growth opportunities alone. But if you can swing enough speaking engagements at conferences, at least you get some free lunches...
One of my old bosses one said "When you make under $50K a year, it's a job; when you make up to $80K/yr, it becomes a career; when you make up to a $100K/yr, its a challenge, and when you make over $125K/yr it becomes a game of egos and politics."
The last time I wrote code, it was Morse
My major was not MIS..it was chemical engineering. Later I got a degree in business.
In my 10+ years experience I've learned that you don't need a degree in CS to be a good programmer - you don't even need a degree. Given that, I would hire someone from a MIS program that can listen, speak intelligibly and intellingently and talk about budgets and income statements before I would hire the average CS major I've met. Long term, a developer will be meeting with clients and users often enough to make it worth my while to make that decision.
I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)
Do you think busy hospitals in the states are any less common? You cite a bunch of isolated cases, and I'm sure you could find similar examples in the states. And they're paying through the nose for it.
Did you ever see the "Health Care Olympics" episode of Michael Moore's TV Nation?? The results were:
1. Canada
2. Cuba
3. United States
When I started straight out of college in Cork, Ireland in 1988, my salary was a paltry 9,500 Irish Pounds... that was about $16K at then exchange rates. Christ was I broke all the time. I received IEP 454 per month after taxes, deductions, social security contribs.
GBP 27k/3? YIKES. Where? Friggen SHROPSHIRE? I guess then driving to Wales would be considered "a foreign holiday." Perhaps he meant EGYPTIAN pounds, which EGP23k is about $3,700. You could hitch-hike to Libya on that... Seriously, there is NOWHERE that denominates in pounds of any variety where 27k/3 would afford ANYTHING "upmarket." I happen to be looking at British salary grade tables right now and the LOWEST grade is GBP12.2k(US$22k). I can't imagine living in any major British city, much less London, on $22k let alone "going on holiday" or buying a Lotus of any age. I call bullshit on that guy's story.
Pump up your resume, Apply with contracting and consulting firms. as a consultant youll get paied more, benifits are for wussies anyways, as a consultant i have been able to ad more things to my resume and work my way up the food chain faster than a regular employee, that is whats important. make connections and meet as many people in your industry as you can. for the next five years your primary goal is not money but your resume and contacts, that will ensure your carreer. personally i would advise to contract and not stay at a job more than a year unless you are getting promoted or adding new things to your resume. be strategic about your resume, do side work to make contacts, go to a chirch or civic organisation and offer to do volunteer work to get access to exposure and tech.
I just wanted to say that if I had Mod Points, I'd mod that Underrated. But for a different reason.
:P. I am amazed by it as a science, enthralled with the study of complexity in general. And I am enormously satisfied by solving problems the *right* way; this is how I imagine most other programmers feel about their jobs, but I've met a few for whom this is very much not the case.
"Not to say at all that $20/hr would be bad, just by comparison. I'm actually quite happy with my wage."
Myself -- I'm making, quite literally, $10 per hour -- and coding at a very high level, database-to-business objects-to-presentation level, and am even occasionally (read: when I have the time) asked to write and create visual content for the end-user documentation. I only have a 2-year AS degree, from a small technical college. (I got it when I was 18, but it's still just an A.S.)
I'm surprisingly happy with this job, despite the fact that when I work long enough hours, my actual hourly wage has gotten as low as $7.50. I think that the reason for it is two-fold:
1) I live in an area with a fairly low cost of living, in semi-rural Minnesota. More importantly, I have a lot of friends and family in the area -- and it's not that easy of an area to find a job in!
2) Because I am such a good value, I am afforded a lot more freedom in the way that I do my job, and in how I get to solve problems. This is a must, particularly when you occasionally have to work with procedural programmers (who are your superiors) that still feel that OOP (or functional programming, yadda yadda -- no elitism) is not "real work".
And I should probably add to that list a third reason:
3) I love programming. I respect programming as a real engineering profession, not as something that you can just *do*. Even with visual development tools
When these sort of things work out in your favor, and you aren't tied down, and the work that you're doing is actually more satisfying the harder you work on it -- then as far as I'm concerned, you've got it made. Regardless of what you're making per hour.
With the market what it is... finding a job at all can be pretty difficult. So, it's sort of one of those "beggars can't be choosers" things. One of the biggest things though is experience. You're almost going to have to get in somewhere at a lower rate of pay for a couple of years then look for promotion internally, or go looking for another opening at a higher rate of pay. Best of luck to you!
Or just move to New York City, as the parent poster did. That is why he was offered 62K out of college, and why degreeless techs make 55K.
Just do not expect that salary to follow you outside of the Metroplex....
====--=====
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
Here is my advice. Make decision between the offers you have now. Unless you sign a contract you can always continue to look for another job while you finish out the semester. If a higher offer is made, you can recind your acceptance to the first company or use that as leverage to renegoiate. Don't reject offers because you think a better one is around the corner. The whole job market is tight right now and you could burn yourself if you are not realistic about your place in it.
If you have to "settle" now, then take every oportunity to expand your skills, to fill in areas where you may be deficient. Your business contacts in and out of your company are also important. You will need your contacts to find future work.
That I did not know. But I hear this all the time Americans hear "overseas vacation" and assume thousands of dollars I was just pointing out that "going abroad" is for some people quite cheap. OTOH given what you have pointed out it sounds like he is a liar.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
...I thought getting paid for your work is bad! Your products should all be put online for "free advertising" purposes, so that people can "sample" them.
Nobody should be compensated for their work. Because, like, people who download something are magically going to run out and buy it. Not me, of course...but "somebody else" will.
I lived there the first 34 years of my life, and I feel for you. It's not just that you're struggling to get by on what should be a middle-class salary, but you get constant exposure to all the people driving $50K to their $XM homes in the hills. Where the #*$%#$ do so many people get so much money?
Started out at $49k, and after 18 months on the job, I now make about $60k. (New England area)
"If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards."
The fact that so many college grads are unable to find work these days pretty much proves that those degrees are utterly worthless except for impressing parents and those who already have jobs but are unable to offer them any.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Then go ahead .. wait tables .. in 5 years, you will still be waiting tables .. with the same salary or slightly better .. in 10 years you might actually get a $10k increase and be promoted to work at the bar. 15 more years and you might become the restaurant manager were you get to rub shoulders with the elite regulars. Then you actually might afford to buy your own house.
Why does the younger generation think that they should be worshipped because of their CS degrees? No offense to the OP, but CS graduates now are a dime a dozen. In India, a dime could even get you a few dozens. Just be thankful that you have a job. Once you work for a couple of years, you'll be able to better judge what your next move should be. And, if you want my advice, work hard, and try to distinguish yourself at work. Look for something useful, and do it well, better than anybody else. Be proactive and do more than you're asked to. I can't be more specific as it really depends on what kind of job you'll be doing. But, keep this in mind, and you will reap the benefits later.
As a side note, I once tried to calculate how much my barber makes a year. I was living in Montreal then, and making in the mid $80K CDN. The barber charged $20 per cut excluding tips, worked alone, and his place was always full. On a bad day, he would cut 20 heads at least, which gave him $400/day. He worked 6 days a week, which means 313 days a year. 313 * 400 = $125.2K/year minimum! I can only imagine what my wife's hair stylist (who charges > $35 for a normal cut) makes. The down-side is that it's a pretty boring job, from my point of view at least.
You start off waiting tables (up to 40k), you move up to bartending (anywhere from 30-150k depending on the city) and move up to owning your own bar (unlimtied potential income).
:P
But you don't need a fancy degree to do any of that so lets just ignore those possibilities.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
However, taxes are much lower than France too, as are social costs. You would gross about 48K euro after all deductions (taxes, social security, healthcare, pension plan). The Irish public health system is OK; not great, just OK.
Yet again, on the other hand, the French public healthcare system is without a doubt the world's best, and the cost of living is very reasonable. A house of that size would cost anywhere between euro 200K and euro 500K in Ireland... I lived in Paris in 1992 for a year, and the quality of life there is really something. I am actually considering moving back to France having spent the last 6 years in the mid west...
As one of the two programmers at a small firm in a small college town, we recently had to go through the same questions in our most recent hiring process (for two more programnmers). Our concerns when hiring someone fresh out of college, is that everytime we have done that (4 total programmers) not a single one was actually prepared for programming in a business environment. They just had no grasp on anything but the theoretical. The biggest problem with a shcool education for programming is that in school, your code almost never has to be maintianed, especially for a years. This is a reality that really effects how good the produced code is. We live in a fairly small city (Gaineville, FL) and pay starting programmers 9-12$ an hr depending on how quickly we can think they can make a difference in the work flow. I also know that we give raises as soon as we feel you deserve it. I know this is less than most people waiting tables make in gainesville. However, I hated wating tables and I love programming so it was well worth the trade for me. Also I work a relatively stable schedule and they work when they are told. If your in a small town dont expect too much. Remeber cost of living is low for a reason. Also I wouldnt expect your education to make very much of a difference in starting salery. I know that I dont trust a starting guy to work on anything worth while for at least 2 months. I might get surprised one day, but mostly your college is nice background that means nothing to me. If it ends up your better than I thought you will get what you deserve, but dont think because you have an education you paid alot for that you are a good programmer and therefore deserve as lots of money. At least in our environment you need to show us what you got before you get good money.
Based on what I was seeing in Chicago, up to about a year and a quarter ago, and down in central Florida since then, anywhere from $22,500/yr to $27,500/yr.
Before the bubble crashed, and the Bush Depression started, you could have added $10k/yr to both numbers.
This is for a BS degree.
Oh, and they'd love an MSCE, etc....
mark
This is a good point, although many will not entirely agree. An engineer is someone who is schooled in such a way that they can produce a product which can be modeled, revised, tracked, and generally should be able to be trusted to any arbitrary degree of reliability. A Computer Scientist is schooled so that they know how to put code together. This is not an oversimplification.
Consider the idea of building a bridge. Do you want the cement truck driver or the guy who directs him where to pour the cement to design the bridge? They are the people who impliment the bridge, but they are in no way qualified to design it. Ask them to explain the resonance of the bridge, or to produce a transfer function which outputs the integrity of the footing of the bridge given an input of average cars per hour (or, less realistically but still entirely possible, the impurity content of the water used to mix the concrete), and he will likely look at you as if you were a martian.
Software is much the same way. Although the software engineer knows the language, and probably several for that matter, much like the civil engineer knows how to pour concrete, they dont necessarily do the implementation. Understanding the basic metrics of code (simple things, like average errors per line of code) is easy. So is compression testing of concrete. There are specialized tools that do it for you. It is knowing how to put these tools together to achieve a goal that is the trick. Do you think you could combine lint, gprof, wc, and a couple of dozen-line python scrips to estimate how long it will take to debug your code? Or estimate how powerful of a computer (varying different architectures, of course) which you will need to complete an arbitrarily difficult computation in finite time? How about performing an analysis of how much power a cluster will consume, then creating a comprehensive cost-benefit analysis based on a dozen different types of nodes which could be used? A back-of-a-napkin calculation might get you somewhere, but eventually you have to admit that you're only getting a ballpark estimate.
Understading how to break down a project, not necessarily to the class/file level, but to the sub-problem level, is the true skill of the engineer. He has to manage, plan, understand, be able to test, and form a framework for the project. I am not saying by any means that a smart CS grad couldn't do this, but rather that the engineer has a degree in doing it.
Next time you are flying in an airplane which uses fly-by-wire controls (admittedly, this may not be any time soon...), consider whether or not you think it is important that the manager of the coding team for the avionics has an understanding of how good software is built and how to maintain accountability in a project, or whether he has even heard of (much less taken) the Hippocratic Oath, the ABET Engineering Code of Ethics, the Humboldt Pledge, or any of the many others which engineers take.
Monster's Salary Centre has data, but they don't tell you how old it is or where it comes from and it's a pain in the ass to figure out exactly what job title to look at.
It seems you do not understand what the difference is between MIS and CS. CS is for programming/design positions. This is what they do and what they understand. Nothing more. MIS is much more tailored to buisness needs and criteria. It is very business oriented and students take almost all of the classes that are necessary of management students. They are focused on not only development and design but project management, finance and accounting. MIS majors are geared for those people that run IT organizations or groups and not just develop in them. I would like to note that some of the best programmers I have ever met are not CS. They are MIS, EE and CHE majors.
The bottom line is programming is not hard. A monkey could learn to program but understanding how IT interacts with business and customers is deserving of a degree all its own.
We also learn to spell in MIS.
I really have no idea what makes them so poor, I would be more specific if I could.
The symptoms however are quite easy to describe: Lots of (they think) knowledge of theory. That's good. Unfortunately they generally don't get it as well as they think they do.
Their coding practices are horrible. I met (fortunately for him I didn't interview him) a CS grad that hadn't ever taken a lab. That's right - he had NEVER programmed ANYTHING for his education, and still graduated.
Their general coding skills are horrible. This generally seems to be a function of their complete lack of any real experience.
As for my harping on about community colleges - again, simply a matter of practicality. The ones I have worked with/hired tended to be pretty solid after an inital shakedown. The University graduates shaked down and then shook out, generally.
If you're going for your grad degree, you're not who I was talking about. Since you are in U, you probably know the ones that I _am_ talking about. The very fact that this 4 year grad claims a high level of skill just because he managed to suck it up for four years reinforces my belief that he's a typical CS bachelor - he thinks he knows what he's doing, when in reality he knows just about Jack Shit.
In the law there is no overlap between theft and copyright infringement whatsoever.
You sound like you're a hell of a lot better interviewer than I am. ;>
;>
I am all about the portfolio, and going over actual work and algorithms. Once hired I closely audit their work to see if they're as good as my interview/hire impression of them was.
If it's really really bad, they go. If it's fixable, I try to fix it.
I am a coder, not a manager, but I find this works pretty well.
I've met competent coders with degrees... On the internet.
In the law there is no overlap between theft and copyright infringement whatsoever.
How you can say that the world is not becoming more superficial I do not know.. twenty years ago to sell records it might have helped loads if you were good looking, but at least on the whole you had to have some talent and musical ability. Now all you need to do is look good and you can be in a boy-band. All the rest can be dealt with in post production. Twenty years ago political parties had clearly defined ethical and political agendas - nowadays (in the west at least) the political parties are virtually indistingishable, they only care about what will get them votes. Getting votes (the superficial) has won over political idealism (the substantial). I could go on, but I guess you won't read it, because you couldn't be bothered to identify yourself before you leapt to conclusions about me...
*--BigMan--- Time flies like an arrow.. but personally I prefer a nice glass of wine!
Keep your eye on the ball is more important than the actual pay. Figure out what experience you need for the $80k job and go after it. When your starting out you can take "subaverage" pay only if it compliments your experience.
Also feel out the employers for what they REALLY want you to do. That's a better indication of pay expectations. Often if the pay expectation is too low then the employers expectation are also too low and you won't be happy. The school thing sounds like a good measure...after all you paid a lot of money to be part of [unoffically] the club. somewhere out there is somebody looking for your social and economic experience...often moreso than than your "paper" schooling...they're looking for somebody to fit their work culture. If the pay is drastically too low...and you've already done your homework for what is fair they keep moving..you won't get what you REALLY want.
remember too, that typically you won't be at a first job very long, 5 years max. Most important is to show you gained responsibility and experiences other people want for the NEXT job...if you find your not getting it GET OUT SOON! Otherwise you've wasted your best earning years being somebody's body and not having a career...and future employeers will look at you like a schmuck!
We were on about 5000 pounds a year, each, fresh out of uni, one year into our careers.
For some reason, after reading this line I can only picture you as a sushi chef.
Mmm...sea urchin.
I ask the usual character questions -- do you like Star Trek? Could Superman beat up Darth Vader? Do you think it's ok to put mustard on a Roast Beef sandwich? And so on. (kidding of course).
:)
You may be kidding, but I got asked what's my favorite website on the interview.
This may seem to good to be true, but I swear this really happened:
I answered Slashdot. And I got the job
[not ONLY because of answering Slashdot, you insensitive clods]
Staring at a box
unmoving
eyes glaze
spittle forms at the edge
the eyes trick the mind into thinking it's stimultated
As an entry level CS person many companies will offer you higher salaries for certain jobs because they are "grunt work" jobs that will not involve new technologies. These are jobs you should avoid at such a tender stage in your career. You should be looking at the technologies you will get exposed to and what you can do with those in the future. It is easy to fall for the higher salary and end up working a job with force your career into a niche you'll never get out of ... particularily in this economy.
... ect. then you might want to consider that.
... and hopefully a more stable company.
That said, you should also look at the prospective companies and their history. If one company has been bought and sold several times... has had an IPO then been delisted and then sold as a private holding
I personally had the choice of two new offers recently and I made my determination based on corporate history and location. I'm grateful to have a choice at all right now and I know that there are a great many people who don't get to pick. I personally made a choice for less money this time
Only you know your full situation, but salary shouldn't be a deciding factor just yet. Consider: Technology, Team Work, Mentors, History and Future of the Company, what kinds of products do they make? (will you feel good about having devoted five years of your life to helping to make widgets? what about helping create a new medicine?)
Can you say both jobs offer equal stability and opprotunity for future growth? Can you say that both work environments are the same? Is the salary difference enough to take the risk for?
BTW: Consider cost of living too while you're at it.
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Hah this was modded Troll. I was being serious, I was not trolling, but whatever. I really don't think the IT industry in general is a good place for anyone to set their sights on, it's all downhill from here.
11*43+456^2