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What Do You Do When CS Isn't Fun Any More?
wonderless asks: "Long ago and far away, I thought that I was going to be a Great Geek, and that I was going to provoke a revolution in the computer industry--and indeed, the world--with my mastery of technology. I could hardly wait to throw myself into an intense, highly technical curriculum and shine. But as I said, that was long ago and far away. Now I'm one semester away from graduation, with a 3.5 average overall and a lackluster 3.0 in CS, and I'm liking it less and less every day. I used to be able to say that at least it pays well, but now I can't even take solace in that. I drag myself to classes and through projects, and it all seems really pointless--I'm just implementing what's written in the book, and eradicating the countless off-by-one bugs is nothing short of mind-numbing. I'd like nothing better than to recapture the feeling of joy I used to get out of doing this, and to once again be able to say I'm doing what I love. What do you do when it isn't fun any more, but you'd like it to be?"
...or better yet, who you wanted to be.
I used to be able to say that at least it pays well, but now I can't even take solace in that.
Actually, it does still pay well if you have experience (so yeah, you'll still be shafted here).
science is a religion
Quit. Join the French Foregin Legion.
see how long it takes you to appreciate love and adore the wonderfull joys of CS. I am guessing one day tops!
I have two degrees, one in CS and one in Archaeology. CS isn't what I want my career to be in, but I can take my computer skills and development knowledge and apply it to archaeology problems.
I like computers and archaeology a lot, though like I said, I don't want to be stuck in the computer industry for the rest of my life (can you say: Middle management, and other un-fun things when you get old?). But I like it enough that I can take it and mix it with something else I like and come up with a winning combination.
Talk to your advisors, too. That's what they get paid for. Mostly, though, you just have to go out there and do what you want to do, money be damned.
Good luck!
Sam Jooky
There's nothing wrong with that line of thinking: it's just a way of you knowing that you aren't suited for this field. Pardon the pun.
> Do what the average teen hacker would do. Launch an attack on GRC
CS and EE are both very mature fields. The state of the art now in computer and os research was basicly the state of the art 3 years ago (aside from enhancements brought by miniaturization). not too much excitement to get you up in the morning and ready to conquer the world.
As some noted computer scientists have said, if they had to do it all over again starting now, they'd probably do biology or genetics, or physics or something, anything, please, besides computer science.
Hit the networks. See what Oprah recommends. Maybe Maury can help you out. Find someone to scream at(maybe a professor - pick a feisty one) and duke it out on Springer.
"On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog!" - a dog
You look at how other people are doing, and think "Damn I'm lucky I have the brains".
Welcome to the real world my friend.
Unless you go to work for a company doing research in CompSci you are going to be doing pretty much the same thing say-in and day-out when you get a job.
All I can say is don't lose your appreciation of computers but realize that not all computer related activity is going to be cutting edge and challenging. Keep working and eventually you will get the chance to do what you want.
if you liked programing do admin and move back and forth.
...you find something else to do. Life is way too short to waste it doing stuff you don't enjoy. Go seek out something new and exciting. Stay alive!
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Get an MBA -- then you'll really understand
what pointless means.
If you can't even get through school, then IT isn't for you. Work makes school seem very, very fun in comparison. Once you're doing at work for a few years, you'll realize that it's not nearly as fun or interesting as you thought it was going to be. It's deadlines, crappy legacy code, stuipd managers, bad decisions that you have to live with, etc. It's a royal grind. If you're already burned out, you may want to save yourself the headache and consider a new line of work.
- A burned out 28-year old developer.
find something that you would like to see made or that you are interested in... then start coding. it will be much more fun if you are doing something for yourself rather than yet another linked list to solve the sums of 5 numbers ;)
Study geology or astronomy or (insert interest here) and apply your CS knowledge to something that would be rewarding to you.
CS is an enabler for most of us not an end.
You do not even really need to go back to school for this.
Hans
Two long, one short. I am lost.
I found that when I got into the industry and started doing different projects than you do in class (ie writing functional web applications vs writing bubble sorts) that I started having a *lot* more fun than I did in college.
Plus it is a completely different environment - you get paid - you get to work on something all day vs having to juggle a ton of classwork.
First of all, if you're one semester from graduation - finish your year. The piece of paper will still be worth something, especially when the economy rebounds.
:). Good luck.
As for finding the fun again... Take a break. Explore hobbies other than coding. Let your coding skills sit quietly in the back of your mind, and some time later, you'll feel the itch again - the need to code a little widget that's Really Cool. It mainly sounds like you're getting burned out to me.
OTOH, coding may or may not be what you really want to do. If your primary goal was to awe the world with your m4d sk1llz, you may simply not have noticed that you weren't having fun doing it. That will reveal itself during your sabbatical. If coding ever was fun for you, the desire to code will come back.
YMMV
Professors in other departments love people who can program nifty apps which do things related to class. You get the enjoyment of applying your skills, and good grades without outright brown-nosing.
That's what helped me. Seeing my work help others gave me a sense of accomplishment that I just didn't have in college. Coding is still somewhat fun, but the goal is more real in business. You don't just get a grade, someone tells you that your product has helped them.
10 minutes working on a sig. What a waste.
Yup, you've made it. You sound like a genyooine programmer.
Welcome to our world. Everyone thinks it's hot stuff, but after you've done it for a few years, it's all the same.
Makes it hard to go home at night and do anything with computers.
-- I have monkeys in my pants.
I really loved doing CS, I'd suggest that th ecourse you are doing is at fault as mine was fantastic. Try investigating the course offered before applying!
Don't like computers anymore? Soltion: become
a Product Development manager at Microsoft!
Sounds like you need to clear off for a few weeks, take in some sun, drink some wine, eat some good food and don't go anywhere near a keyboard.
It works for me as an mainframe contractor - take some time out, recharge your batteries keep doing it until you're bored. Then come back to the keyboard...
You are simply growing up.
This isn't something that's exclusive to CS but rather all fields, burnout. Take some time off, go outside, take a trip. After a couple of weeks or months you may find yourself itching for the keyboard. If not, do whatever makes you happy. If you don't know what that is, find it and do it.
I wasn't interested in CS when I went off to University, much to the surprise of my parents, and I can't say I am now either, 7 years after graduating.
The only advice I can give is to figure out what you're *really* interested in, and pursue that. It may still involve computers, but doesn't necessarily have to be programming, right?
You may want to finish the degree after a semester off, if you can do that. You may just need a break away from academia!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
Dude, like you gotta go into Management or something. Quick, look in the mirror and see if your hair is starting to get pointy.
Jack
- -
Are you an SF Fan? Are you a Tru-Fan?
You're right... your job will more than likely be doing what everyone else is doing - implementing the well-known. Whee-hah. Sounds like that is exactly what you want to avoid.
I'm not usually one to advocate this, but go to grad school. You'll hook up with the people who are developing what will be the standard years from now, and are researching the bleeding edge. A Master's degree will be a good start.. if you want to really push the envelope, you gotta go all the way to Ph.D.
Grad school will break you out of the its-been-done rut you seem to be in. The only problem might be the cost (it's never cheap), and your grades. Check with some of your professors, see what it takes to get in. You may need to take another year and polish yourself up.
Failing that, start a pr0n website. Pr0n always seems to be on the cutting edge...
Mr. Ska
I guess you didn't get the errata sheet for the secret geek manual:
On page 844, in the paragraph that ends
"...being a geek is the worst thing ever, a meaningless existence full of drudgery and pain."
substitute "isn't" for "is", "meaningful" for "meaningless" and "with no" for "full of"
Also, at the bottom of page 1299 (this is a Peachpit Press book after all), replace the sentence "Never ever have a good time -- just keep staring at the monitor no matter what" with "Be sure to get out more -- staring at a monitor all the time is bad for your eyes."
;)
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
Get as far away from CS, once you graduate, as possible. Move somewhere where there is no computer industry and get it out of your head. If it no longer seems like you want to pursue a career in CS, then maybe you are better off not trying to, but you will only know how much you would miss it by getting some distance for a while.
Unlike most people who get involved in "higher learning," I go to school to learn, and not to just "find a job." I got fet up with CS a few years ago and opted to get involved in electronics engineering after a short break. I have loved it ever since and still learn new things all the time. I suggest that you look into it if CS isn't really for you. Maybe you can still recolutionize the technical world.
well, once you have loop invariants down you could always go for a Ph.D. (Piled Higher and Deeper) in Computer Science, there lies the wonders of computational theory, game theory, pebbles and spiders, and so on... ...Having been in the "real world" for a while I'm thinking of dropping out of life and going to school... ...something about the quality of the greeness of the grass somewhere else...
Darthtuttle
Thought Architect
The last thing in the world you want to is stick with tech even though you dislike it, or it bores you.
Keeping current on your technology skills requires constant maintenance and efforyt. If you dont have the desire, your skills are going to suffer. It will only get worse with time.
My suggestion would be to experiment and explore other areas of interest that you enjoy.
Tech is used in just about every field of study nowadays, and perhaps applying technology to a different domain, like sociology, archeology, etc, would be a usefull application of your skills, as well as something that you look forward to.
Don't sell yourself short. 'Settling' on a tech career because of the money won't bring any satisfaction, and probably won't bring the money you thought it would either.
Wouldn't it be ironic, if there was no #1001... Because #1000 would not only off himself, but off the bridge along with himself...
I say finish the degree since there is only a year left and see how you feel. If you want to do something else, then you can easily pay for school by doing a simple IT/Admin job somewhere and do homework in your spare time ... and belive me, there is LOTS of spare time doing IT/Admin stuff!
I chose not to major in CS because I already know a lot about the subject. Why not look into engineering or architecture? It all depends on what you're interested in and what you like doing.
the byproduct of years of oppression by the white man
If you think that you have enough learning CS subjects, do some open source projects. Search Sourceforge or Freshmeat for interesting projects you think you want to contribute. Then, after some experiences, your interest in CS will grow as your curiousity is pricked and your realized that your knowledge in CS need growing. When that happens, go for another one or two years in Master studies. That will sure be a lot of fun.
--
Error 500: Internal sig error
IMO, CS should probably only be studied by those who want to create new /SCIENCE/ in the field. Too many people want to use computers to do their jobs, or program for a living, and think CS is the way to go. Nah.
:)). Learn your computer skills while working on another degree, and that will create some serious demand for your abilities...... in the field you majored in!
Far better idea: Get a degree (or 3) in something you're truly interested in. Like History, or Geography (or GIS, like me
You major in what you love to do, and use computers to make what you love that much better.
Like.... be a programmer who happens to be a genius in Physics! You think that wouldn't be in demand?
Realize that having a CS degree will at least get you in the door at places for more than just programming. I burnt out while I was in school, too, and dropped out in my last year, because I was tired of all the FSCKING programming. I mean, if I wanted to be a programmer, that's all fine and good, but I wanted to be, at the time, a systems analyst, and later changed my mind, and now I'm a systems admin.
Finish it out. I wish I had - but I got into the job market before the dot-com bubble started or burst, so I was lucky enough to not have to depend on my degree to get me just in the door. Now I'm going the night school here at an in-town unoiversity.
You're going to need the degree, coming in with minimal experience. I know, it sucks, but finish it out, then get out of the programming. I still go back to it for fun when I wanna do something, but hell, it's surely not what I want to do for the rest of my life.
This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
I get tired of CS too. I'm about 2 semesters away. Some classes have great professors where you enjoy the classes and the projects because they are challenging. Other times (Tue-Thur @5:30) I'll have a professor that just reads power point slides and has midterms that are closer to DB vocabulary tests than DB process and design. In any event, I started learning stuff I wanted to learn on my own. Messing with sockets and gtk+ and other stuff. The reason CS gets boring is that a lot of the problems you solve in classes are miles from fun. Take the Travelling Salesmen problem. I'm sure almost everyone in CS has to do it at sometime or another. It's an interesting problem, but coding it isn't. So, long story short: my advice is to look into areas of programming you havn't tried and give them a shot. It could just be that the stuff you're doing isn't for you.
Chaos, Mayhem, and Destruction: Not
Sounds like somebody has a case of the Mondays
I say it all depends on who you're playing with, sometimes a bit boring. Try switching from CTs to Ts, or playing some different maps. Eventually a new
That was a joke.
But seriously, university can be quite boring when studying computer science. At least that's what I found. Work was quite different and much more enjoyable. The highs are much higher, but also the lows can be much lower - you have to get a decent and interesting job.
So you've basically got to decide if you want to plough on, get graduated and try to get a good job you'll enjoy, or bug out now and change subjects.
Nothing's ever fun forever, there's always high and lows. Whatever you choose, it's doubtful you'll be doing it for the rest of your adult life - even if your tech flame is rekindled and you get a great job and do well, you'll end up a manager or director and not be doing it anymore.
In my experience, most people hate their first job after graduation. Accept it - go for the 'best' job you can even if you know you may not enjoy it. Try to stick with it for two years and get as much experience and training as you can. Then make a career change to what you really want to do.
Just because you studied CS, doesn't mean that you have to base your career around it. However, you should use it as leverage to get a good first job, because without work experience it's difficult to change tack. Once you've got a bit of experience, then you'll have a lot more freedom to change and move to what you really want to do.
The real sad cases are those people who get a 'good' job which they really hate, but then don't have the courage to change to something different.
Simple answer: Find something non computer science related to do.
What aspect of CS do you dislike? Programming? There are tons of non-programming jobs out there. As a sysadmin, other than the occasional Perl script, I don't write any code.
Really, just because you graduate with a CS degree does NOT mean that you need to go out and become a programmer, or even need to find a CS-related job. Ironically, I know a few English majors who are now brilliant sysadmins.
I don't mean to sound like a Troll, but if you're that close to graduation, then finish college and look for something which you like. A college degree is just proof that you can learn.
Taking a computer science degree most times exposes you a very wide range of material. Ranging from the pure coding aspects, to theory, to hardware io. Which part of this did you like before? Also since you will be graduating, and a computer science major could be useful in almost any industry, maybe going into an industry that interests you, and using you computer science talents there would be enjoyable? A lot of people don't end up doing what they graduated with a degree in, maybe you're just figuring that out before you've been coding for 5 yrs :)
I had the same problem, CS was just plain dull... I dropped out of university and started making films.
After a little while, my intrest returned and I decided to make a small game engine (my reason for learning to code when I was aged 10).
So take a break - get a McJob to make ends meet, and enjoy life a bit.
Use the other hand!
Maybe this is your way back to happiness.
"...at least it pays well..."
:)
That's not a good reason for going into C.S. It reminds me of a trend in medicine, where folks want to become doctors because of the money. Only, somewhere along the line they figure out that they really don't like medicine; this is often after a substantial investment in medschool, which can leave crushing, mortgage-sized debts. Careers should be selected for love of the art, not love of money.
All that said, you're making a decision too early. You're in SCHOOL; the challenges you're facing there are nothing like what you'll be facing on the job. You'll learn more in your first year on the job than you did during the entire time you were in school. You'll face programming efforts with 50,000 lines of code or more in some cases. College C.S. is a good theoretical basis, but it really doesn't show you what you're going to face at work.
You don't have enough experience yet to be jaded, so stop puttin' on those jaded airs.
C//
About 2 years into my CS education, I realized that I had an active dislike for mathmatics, and only limited patience for the rigors involved in logic design and the debugging headaches that go along with any programming project.
The thing that saved me, however, was the fact that the field of computer science is so varied and vast that I didn't really have to specialize in programming to do what I really wanted to.
Look at all aspects of CS, and not just coding. That means networking, graphics, engineering, etc...
When I realized that I really wasn't cut out to be a coder, I started taking art classes and registerd a minor specilization in computer generated art. Now I'm a webmaster/graphics guru for a mid-sized financial company in texas. Part of my duties include administering servers and writing the occasional script, but most of what I get to do is purely creative. I take photos, paint, draw, and even write occasionally, being paid like a server administrator the entire time.
I know guys who hate coding, but love to build hardware. I know of guys who have gone into the electronics aspect of CS, actually engineering and building computer components.
It may be difficult to find a CS field you like, but there is almost certainly one out there for you.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
I just finished my degree in Computer Engineering and Computer Science and I relate to the lack of luster and and frustration with the market currently.
:) What do you think?
I think that universities spend too much time teaching computer technology as a science instead of addressing artistic issues with coding, software development, etc. Software Engineering, even with UML and Patterns, is unrefined. Good software heavily depends on the capabilites of the individual. Two people can complete similar education with similar marks and have very different capabilities. Too often, students' work is look at too objectively and not subjectively enough. I think the best CS programs would take a similar approach as Medical Schools to in educating their students.
I don't know.
This is my world and I am...
there a lots of options available. have you thought about the european market? or teaching somewhere in central america ( i taught perl to
some guys in guatemala, it was a great time. )
much of what i find enjoyable and edifying about a job in tech is the "who,what and where" i am living the rest of my life with.
Don't worry, SaulGood
Most careers look great from the outside, but turn out to be boring. Why do you think it's called "work?"
- - - If the sun is a star, why can't I see it at night?
A CS degree is not just a way into *yawn* programming for some company or sysadmining looking after morons and their computers. It is knowlege that can be applied across the board to a myriad of fields of research, either academic or commercial.
The same applies to non CS degrees in the CS field - my (postgrad) degree is in Medieval French, but I'm working with computers in order to create electronic editions of medieval manuscripts; using XML with a search engine to enable people to search texts, descriptions of archives, descriptions of museum items, libraries etc. Find something else that interests you and you can say that you love, and apply your IT knowledge and skills to it.
-- Azaroth
What do you mean Counter Strike isn't fun anymore. Maybe try switching sides. That always seems to help me.
Ohhhhhhhh....CompSci....
Guess what now you have to start making real decisions about your future. The joy's of being an adult.
Try taking a job in an unexpected area. A new challenge is a great way to find some excitement and focus.
By definition, a government has no conscience. Sometimes it has a policy, but nothing more. - Albert Camus
Once you get out in the real working world, you'll come to appreciate your degree more. I started working on the Sysadmin/DBA side and have made the transition to a software/network engineer and am starting to appreciate the time I spent in school.
So don't do anything stupid until you are out of school and employed (ie. don't drop out) Just get a job and see what happens. If you hate your job, look for another one.
If you are reasonably intelligent and interested in doing stuff, you won't have too much trouble getting a job. One of the positive things about a recession is that it will shake the idiots and dotcom losers out of the industry.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Seriously, I got way more out of the practical Computer Programming Specialist courses at Keesler AFB than I did from Washington University's engineering curriculum. Once I was trained, they shipped me off to an honest-to-god Air Force squadron where I wrote code for embedded systems, designed databases, repaired hardware, and got to run around with a gun.
The money was terrible. The hours were tough. It was the best work experience of my life. And, as an experience I can put on my resume, it was spectacularly effective at keeping me employed after I was discharged.
I was as jaded as you were when I graduated with my CS degree a year ago. Most of the problem was I wasn't learning anything new during the last year of my studies - it was just rehashed or applied parts of my previous learning.
Looking at my job now (I've worked a little over a year), I know the parts I've enjoyed the most have been when I worked on a project full time, wholly engrossed with the development and creation of some new software. I would say that most engineers feel the most excited about work when they've created and completed something new from nothing. The lowest parts of my job have been when I have nothing to do - same thing like when you're not learning anything at school. Of course other factors exist - the work environment, coworkers, etc. but having challenging work to do is the part of my job that I enjoy best.
My best advice to you is choose a job that interests you and that will provide lots of challenging projects with the freedom for you do actually create and use your software development skills to their fullest. Otherwise you'll e bored at your desk day in, day out.
good luck
t.
"Corrupting our youth one mind at a time"
Have faith, stick it out. You've come this far, not long to go.
Real world, all that will matter is the degree you hold, be it in CS or in Applied Bogo Dynamism Philosophy. It's a 4 year degree, and it's a ticket in the door.
Also, bear in mind that CS in the real world is often times a far cry from the academic. If you still hate the idea of CS as a career, find something else you love. Teaching comes to mind. Drive a truck. Learn a trade (the plumbers and electricians I know seem to always have $$$ in hand, nice homes, good vehicles for those keeping score, and will always be able to find work).
Whatever makes you happy. Life's to short to work a sh*tty job that you hate. Me, I dislike my job (it ain't no career!), but it's a means to an end. My degree is in Urban Planning, and I work in a CS field. The degree doesn't matter, what will matter is the opportunities that it opens for you. End of soapbox rant.
I spent 2 years in a Computer Information Systems course at a local highschool/college hybrid in town here, and it's totally ruined me. Before, I would write PHP for fun, at the start I hacked on the IRCd for StarChat, and now I can't even bring myself to bother USING the software I wrote (online journals, poetry databases, etc), let alone write more. For that matter, I stopped liking Linux, because I don't want to bother with all the crap I have to deal with to make things work - I used to love it, but now? Can't stand it. I use a Mac.
What I did was find something else that interests me - namely languages - and start exploring that. I had the good fortune of meeting a lot of Mexicans on StarChat, and through them, got a base understanding of Spanish in a week or two. I've also found myself comparing languages, alphabets, and so on.
Basically, what I'm saying is, find something else that interests you and do that instead. Maybe change your major and don't graduate for a while longer, but even if you do change your major, you'll have a lot of electives done already. Maybe Physics is more up your alley, if you like the math of computing, or Engineering if you like problem-solving and design.
There's more to life to computers, as I've found, and the trick is to find what other stuff you enjoy, and what interested you in computers in the first place, and to pick a path based on those.
Good luck.
--Dan
You have to ask yourself: Is it software development that you're tired of, or is it academia?
You might want to try working outside college, either at a part-time job, or on an open-source project.
I know it sucks right now, but you've invested plenty of time in it, and its a bad idea to quit. Its only a semester, a fantastically short period of time in the grand scheme of things.
:)
Then go and do something completely unrelated for as long as you want to, and gain a bit of perspective. You may find that, with the daily grind removed, you remember what you liked about CS, or you may never touch a keyboard again. Either way, you'll be a college graduate, which does help in getting jobs, whatever your major is.
Besides sticking at something you hate for a short while is character building
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
i was a Comp. Sci student at NJIT till I realized I wasn't motivated enough, and switched to the "Science, Technology, & Society" program, which focused on policy decisions and environmental science/politics/philosophy.
I loved it, and was very passionate about politics and philosophy, but finishing my senior project left me drained and confused...
So now I work at an dot com, and wish I had a CS degree.
It'd be a shame to call it quits before you've really begun the game. The complexities you'll encounter once you really start working will make whatever you've done in school look like a two line gw-basic program written on an ibm pc-at. The joy of working in cs projects transitions from the drugery of fixing minutae to solving larger, systemic problems. I urge you to take your good gpa, get a job, and really give it a chance.
I'm not sure quite where your interests lie, but I've been pretty much predicting the same frustrations for myself in a few years, which is why I'm planning on going to grad school to pursue a degree in Electrical Engineering. My thoughts are this: CS covers software, while EE deals primarily with hardware and implementation, among other things.
It doesn't seem to me that software and the like has changed a lot over the last few decades; aside from the languages used and the hardware they run on, programmers are still doing primarily the same thing they've always done (this is an unsubstantiated opinion drawn from my observations and conversations... I haven't been programming but for a few years). Consequently, the stuff that really interests me is hardware. New hardware is very definitely different from the older stuff, and there are a lot of interesting developments out there.
My personal suggestion is to take a look at the fields in which the logic, processes, and potentially even the programming from CS applies and see what else is out there that's of interest. Don't limit yourself to just tech stuff, either. Look around, and see what interests you. If possible, see if you can find some alumni from your school that majored in CS but went on to do other things; they may be able to provide some good insights into life after CS.
Granted, this is coming from a freshman CS major at a liberal arts university, so YMMV, but regardless, good luck!
-Orbix
Listen, everything you do will eventually become boring. If you switch to another field you think will be more interesting, that will become boring too. The smart thing to do is to go into a career where you can become independently wealthy when you're young, after that you can do whatever you want, when you want. The only career like that is business, particularly finance. If I had to do it all over again, I would go to Wall Street for sure, and I'd be retired by now.
- Have a picture
Honestly, I was starting to feel the same way in the work world. I've been a software engineer professionally for about 10 years. Extreme Programming (XP) is the twitch in your fingers when the meetings get long, it is the surge of pride when software works first time round. Check it out: http://www.extremeprogramming.org or for a business-level summary: executive summary of XP. Good luck! Don't give up just yet. School can be stultifying, and so can work. But if you are talented, there will always be good opportunities. Also consider starting your own business. There are lots of programs for supporting small business in most countries - it is very exciting and great experience. Or work for a startup doing cool stuff (not many of those around anymore, but still).
Helping with organizational effectiveness is our job.
If you haven't tried finding an internship in CS/CE, I suggest trying to find one.
Real-world CS is a lot different than academia. I'm a junior (CE @ UM Ann Arbor) in college, and while I've liked some of my classes, most of them are merely there to teach the rigor of heavy computer science, so that we have the faculties to tackle the really cool problems in computing. Some people actually like the academia-side more... but those people are crazy (j/k).
The real place where I have fun is my job - not as theoretical as class, and you see real results. The most fun is when you get to actually *use* the stuff that they teach you in class.
Give it a while - and if you can't find an internship in your area, often CS departments have programming clubs, in which the members work on a large computer project together. Personally, I'm not involved with one of these, but it seems everyone involved has a lot of fun.
Good Luck, and remember - when all else fails, stay for a master's degree.
-Mike
No really, we need more (i.e., ANY!) tech-clueful politicians.
You're not too specific about:
- Which part of this large and growing field used to thrill you
- Which part of this large and growing field has burnt you out
Which would probably help you get better advice from everyone.
But it may just be a case of getting bored with the tiny, unrealistic projects that are typically used to teach computer science. Maybe it's not CS that has you down, maybe it's just college burnout. Applications in the real world tend to be more interesting in the sense that they're much, much larger, but less interesting algorithmically (is that a word?) speaking. You may find the real world to be a breath of fresh air, or you may find it even more oppressive.
In either case, finish your degree. You're too close to the end to give up on it. If you try some real-world CS and still hate it, you can try something else.
I have been working with computers since 1972. Its not the computer that is fun, but what you can do with it.
When you do control software for 1,500 HP motors, a bug can be fun too!
Wait till you blow your first 8,000A fuse!
"eradicating the countless off-by-one bugs is nothing short of mind-numbing. I'd like nothing better than to recapture the feeling of joy I used to get out of doing this, and to once again be able to say I'm doing what I love. What do you do when it isn't fun any more, but you'd like it to be?" "
It sounds like you enjoyed it more as a hobby than as a serious career. If so, keep it that way and a find an alternative career that you can enjoy and use to pay for that hobby.
Things like the off-by-one bugs decrease significantly with experience. But, you also have to be disciplined and serious about your programming. I'm happy with this as I get great satisfaction out of having things just fall together and work well the first time. The initial effort might seem dry, tedious and unnecessary (design!), but I find it pays off in the long-run.
There's nothing more frustrating than having to deal with somebody else's sloppy code and basic bugs. Ultimately, I've found working with a team of senior and/or good software engineers results in better code to work with, so there are fewer of those off-by-one and bad pointer bugs to deal with in the first place. Unfortunately, you might have to "do your time" to get there.
Find a way to use your CS skills to further your hobbies. This will give you the chance to apply your skill set to something you already do. If this works for you you'll find you're just working so you can pay the bills and further your hobby (or else you'll do personal development on your employers time).
:)
For example, if you're in to paragliding, write something that helps explain the sport to new comers.
Personally, I merged my profession of programming with my love of live music to create db.etree.org and fortunatly don't spend too much of my employers time working on it
If you can't do what you love, then you might as well work doing something you're good at. If you're still a good programmer you might as well keep at it, really you're not going to find too much better in the way of a job. Programming is still one of the better paid professions out there.
What you may have to do is give up on the idea that what you want to do, what you have to do, and what you are good at are all the same thing. The vast majority of people don't have the luxury of doing what they love and getting paid for it; they grow up, get a job, and learn to deal. After all, the purpose of a job is to provide you with a means to do what you want, not and end in itself.
I'm 50, so I remember when computers were seldom used in business. It's clear to me that in the relatively near future - maybe 10 years, maybe less - nearly every discipline and profession will involve computers and information processing in one way or another. You would be wise to finish your education but majoring in a field that lights your fuse. You'll find that your C.S. skills will serve you well in that field.
Also, it's always good to know that should a career in your chosen field not pan out, you can always make a living at hacking. Knowing that you have a safety net should help give you confidence in your chosen profession.
Coursework got you down? Do a random coding project. The best way to keep interested in CS is be active in doing stuff that you find fun. Coursework definitely brodens your horizons, but if you want to do something interesting many times you have to take the initive. Here are some random projects that my roomate and/or I did to keep ourselves interested while at college.
-Teach yourself some Computer graphics and build a paralell ray-tracer.
-Get a book on Lex/Yacc and write your own programming language.
-Mess around with X-screensaver code and write a new screensaver.
-Teach yourself some about evolutionary computation and teach your computer to play blackjack.
-Learn about image filters and write yourself an image filter library.
-Pick up a book on neural nets and write one that does vowel recognition.
-Teach your self about kernel hacking and implement a new feature like process statistics.
bash-2.04$
bash-2.04$yes "Don't you hate dialup connections?"| write USERNAME
You said "eradicate"!! I'm so proud!
:p ). We all have to "pay our dues" when we start out.
I graduated this past spring with a BS in Aero/Astro Engineering. I find myself not too excited about my job and I think I'm starting to realize a way to alleviate that boredom. Don't expect your first job to be vigorating and stimulating. Very few people are lucky enough to get jobs that really challenge them and yet provide years of enjoyable work.
Rather, find a job that you can stick with for a couple years. Build up your work experience and look for places to move to after you have the qualifications for the job. Eventually you'll get a job that will be worth all this effort.
In the meantime, don't waste your enthusiasm for CS. Work on projects on your own at home away from work. This may sound trivial, but you may stumble upon / develop something really cool that could turn into a home-business.
I've got some buddies that develop online java games for a living. They actually quit college early because they were able to make money on their games so soon, but they are doing what they love for income.
So whether you work on extra projects at home for fun or for good income, don't let mundane jobs get you down (buck up soldier
That's Mr. Eradicator to you.
trance-port
I'm a CS major at a private university in the South. I have three semesters left to go. Those three semesters should be the most interesting yet. Why? Artificial Intelligence, Neural Networks, senior project (my first real programming project). With all the boring electives and necessaries out of the way, I can concentrate on something that peaks my interest and do some real design/coding. Are you taking any high-level theory courses? If not, why not? Are you working on any real projects? If not, ask yourself what the quality of your education has been/will be when you graduate.
From your post it sounds like you majored in CS to get paid well and make some radical impact on the world. Well, that's just not what CS is about. The fun stuff, like AI, is rare. More often than not it's about working hard at solving problems and fixing other people's mistakes. Depending on what kind of work you do, it can be financially rewarding. But if solving problems for the fun of it doesn't interest you anymore, money won't make up for that.
It sounds like you need to make some hard choices about your education and your future.
Authors call it writer's block and it happens to every programmer I know. You just spend too much time with your code so you get you get tired of it and your work gets done very slowly. then you stress about it so you try to code more but the more you worry and code, the slower your work gets done. You just need to take your mind off things and actually do and think about something else for a while.
Unfortunately, you're in school so you *have* to do the work. You just have to take advantage of every time off the IDE you can get. I've had writer's block a few times and it just goes away after a while.
You're acting myopic. Get away from it for a while. There's a big world out there. Start thinking differently about things. Let go of your previous expectations and find something new that's interesting. The skills that you have developed will not be valuable no matter what you do.
Take a trip. Visit friends somewhere else. See some movies - anything to get your mind out of it's current space and into a new mode of thinking.
Finally, quit your whining. Life can be hard. Accept that and move on.
but I can't help you. I can't imagine CS not being fun anymore.
I graduated a little more than 3 years ago and I am still enjoying it, atleast when I am actually programming. Now the other stuff bites. (i.e. Changing one line of code to fix a bug and then having to recompile and re-test on 9 different platforms. Takes all week!)
Maybe CS just isn't for you. Not to be rude, but you get all psycked up about something and your enthusiasm dies after a short period, then maybe it just isn't for you. I've been doing CS stuff for 10 years and it's just as exciting or more so now than it was when I started. Maybe I'm just weak minded and easily amused, or maybe it's just what I was Meant To Do(tm). Some projects are more exciting than others, and some projects I get really excited about early on, but after a few weeks/months of it, I get bored and move on. The key for me seems to be change, I can't do the same thing for too long (more than 2 or 3 months straight).
If you're already bored after a few years, then maybe you should look at something else, because if it's what you were really meant to do, then it would be exciting forever.
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
I feel the same sometimes (I'm a software engineer that also likes to hack at home). So I take a break. I continue doing my day job, but in the evenings I do something else. This last year I stopped hacking and learnt to play bass (and designed and built a valve amp for it) - now I'm itching to get back to the computer in my free time (in fact, I'm wanting to combine the two by writing music software).
In your position I'd stick with the degree, but do something else as well. If you organise your life and work when you need to work (instead of being pissed off and wasting time) you'll find plenty of free time to do something different.
http://www.acooke.org
First off, school's a bitch, to put it bluntly. Day in, day out in this small splace with generally small-minded proffessors. I know, I've been through the meat grinder as well.
There are a few things you could do. If you can get certifications, get them and start working as a roving prostitute.. err... consultant. Good money, hotel rooms, and you can screw with peoples' networks at will. Tee hee hee.
You're too far along in school to check out other options, realistically.. but maybe see what other things you have interest in and try to cross-pollinate those interests.
Maybe try becoming a kernel hacker. Either it'll cook you or you'll be helping out Everyone And Their System.
The last option I can think of is PROZAC. You may be sufferring from depression (can't blame you.. like I said, it's a bitch!), so maybe a visit to the shrink would help.
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
Part of the university/college experience is to discover what you really want to do in life.
If I were you I'd finish my degree and think long and hard about what I actually want to do.
Though I'm not totally unhappy with working in the IT sector, I wish I could afford to go back to school and take something other than CS.
I'm probably going to get an offtopic for this, but...
Is it just CS and programming that you're finding yourself disillusioned with, or is it kind of everything in life right now? I ask this because it sounds to me like you may be depressed, and attributing the symptoms of that depression to loss of interest in what is currently one of the biggest parts of your life (getting through your CS degree).
If you feel like everything else in your life is just great, then feel free to ignore this post.
On the other hand, if you've been feeling a general sense of purposelessness, lack of motivation about other areas of life, experiencing sleep disturbance (either trouble sleeping or sleeping all the time), or been down about life in general, you might want to consider getting some professional counseling. If you are depressed, it's likely that when you get some help for the depression, you will rediscover your passion for technology.
BTW, IANAP (I am not a Psychiatrist/Psychologist) so standard disclaimers apply.
(Them's goooood drugs.)
destroying everything you love about a subject.
Finish your degree, you'll get a lot farther with a four-year degree in underwater basket-weaving than with 3.5 years of theoretical physics.
Then, go do something you like. Be a DJ, paint pictures, write stories, go hiking, and find a way to make money at it. The challenge of keeping yourself fed while doing something you care about will be a lot more rewarding.
Definitely finish the degree though, it shows potential employers that you're not a quitter.
"Nothing was broken, and it's been fixed." -- Jon Carroll
All of this commentary about more education and other BS. Go out and teach. There are hundreds of school districts across the country that want math teachers (and probably some who want computer teachers). Take the opportunity to travel some.
The pay is not great, and if you decide to stick it out, you'll have to take a fair amount of courses. But if you are only into it for a couple of years, it will be a good break, and possibly very rewarding.
(I almost went this route after deciding that chemistry sucks. Got my MBA instead. While the toys are nice, I would have preferred teaching. But I wasn't going to take the teaching courses.)
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
In either case the answer is the same: do something else. The only way to be happy in the IT field is to LOVE what you do. All of those people who started CS degree programs in school 3 years ago just for the money are pissed now that they can't come out of school with a 2 or 4 year degree and move immediately to a six-figure salary. Any job in IT means long hours, often tedious work, and dealing with people who generally resent you for your intellect. If you're not in it because you love technology you won't last long, IMO.
On the plus side, a job in IT can be VERY rewarding if you love technology. It's *always* challenging, you get to be around the latest technology (usually), and there's always something new to learn. Also, if you start in the programming (software) side of it and burn out, you can always move to the hardware/networking side, or vice-versa. Or do like a lot of people (myself included) and do a little of both. The people who thrive in the IT field are people who get bored easily and are always up for a new challenge. Sounds like this guy is either lazy, or his school isn't challenging him enough.
Shayne
Today I didn't even have to use my AK; I got to say it was a good day -- Icecube
See if you can fast computers for a week. I mean 100%, totally cold turkey. No email. No Slashdot.
I bet you'll find out how addicted you really are. You'll get some perspective. Its not about the gory details, its about what you can do that no one else can.
If a 3.0 average is what's bugging you, don't worry too much about it. College is a way of getting you acquainted with a lot of things in a relatively short amount of time - and some people do better at short-term learning than others. Also, programming in the real world is a lot different from whatever you did at school - and it can be a very rewarding experience to build something and know that there are other people using it.
:)
So relax, look for interesting projects to do in your first few years, and try to be diverse in the beginning: work with wildly different things - dabble into kernel-level code, work on user interfaces, learn how neural nets work and make one of your own. In a couple of years or a little more, you'll have a broad knowledge of a lot of things, and with a little luck, you'll find something that interests you.
If you ask me, the best part about working with computers is that you never stop learning. It is very fulfilling in the long run, so don't lose heart yet
...I've been going out with this chick for a few years now, at first I though we were going to get married, since our love had no bounds, but now I'm begining to dread the relationship more with each new day.
Listen! When you're going through school things always get frustrating 3/4 of the way through, and you're regurgitation of code is simply your mind settling into the most comfortable manner of getting respectable grades with the least amount of effort (that good ol' 20/80 rule). You don't even have a job in the IT industry yet!
If you want my advice (and you must since you posted that message), find yourself an interesting project that you can call your own, something that matches as closely as possible the ideals you had on the first day of CS. Nurture that project, if nothing else, when you finish class you'll have something to distinguish yourself from everyone else.
My next suggestion, don't give up hope in the face of boredom. You may not realize this now, but without any doubt you posess a vast amount of freedoms while in school that you will loose rather suddenly once strapped into the workforce. Go out and enjoy yourself, do things that you won't be able to do once the 40+ hour work week has smacked you across the head.
Where do I derive my advice? From having worked for 2 years after completing school, and realizing how much I missed the liberties that come with being a student returning for another 3 years of school.
Finaly, don't forget what Ghandi said: "Be the change you wish to see in others."
I'm a writer, a poet, a genius, I know it. I don't buy software, I grow it.
get your masters. After working full time for about 2 years after completing my undergraduate degree in CS, I decided to get my masters in CS. Work paid for it, so why not? There's a whole different world of things that you *hear* about, but don't really get to learn in your undergraduate studies. Also, taking only one or two classes at a time, I've found, makes the learning process much more fun. A masters degree also gives you that added pay edge.
I've also found that once you graduate and get a job, you have a bit more time to do things that you want to do. In school, you have so many responsibilities that lie squarely on YOUR shoulders. At work, you get your tasks done, and go home. I make it a practice to try and leave work stuff at work. I can then do the things I want to do -- whether it's computer related or not.
Once you are in the work force, you can take pride in the work you do. You'll soon realize that you're not just implementing something from a book, but rather innovating something, hopefully someday that will be in a book.
Ever heard the saying there's no such thing as an easy buck? Or how about earning money the old fashioned way, by earning it. IMHO, those two things are a given. Sure, luck has something to do with how much you can make, but in the end, hard work will pay off. It will earn you raises and promotions. Look at computer companies that are still profitable today. Do their CEO's just sit back and ride the technology bandwagon? Probably not. They work for it.
Best of luck.
Maybe it's ignorance is bliss, back when you didn't really know squat it all seemed like it had limitless potential. Once confronted by the realities, and a declining Tech boom (don't expect this to last forever, particularly for those who really do have CS degrees, as opposed for those who got their foot into the field out of an employers desperation) the occupation can seem dreary. I know, I've passed through phases where it was just 'work' and nothing fun or exciting about it. Some might suggest 'growing up' as in, jobs are supposed to suck. Well, jobs have sucked at times and held great enjoyment at times. You're probably just in a down cycle. So give it time, find something else you like to do and do that until that project or opportunity finds you (you never find them, they find you, it's a fact) and you discover where your strengths are and what you prefer doing. Best of luck.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I switched to mechanical engineering.
Do that, or waste your life studying philosophy or some crap.
One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
The world of computer science (and in general "solutions to problems through technology") is far more broad (and interesting!) than just writing code.
You may be happier if you switch your direction to veer slightly into hardware (probably involving the EE department at your school) or more into business computing (where there's more emphasis on broad solutions to real problems).
Whatever you do, make sure you meet folks who are outside your particular specialization!
Starting a career was interesting after getting my electrical engineering degree. I got my BS during the peak of the recession in '92. School was mostly fun due to the labs and being able to pick my senior project.
Unfortunately, I had to graduate and get a job unlike some of the other career students. It started out with a short lived technician's job with oil wells in Texas. That job stunk more ways than one. It came to an end very quick and I was surprised to see my buddies in the graduate placement office too.
I took to the newspaper and took the first thing I could find. Repairing televisions and VCR's was fun. It paid like crap, but we could do things after hours, like make robots out of old VCR parts or design radar guns and other michievious fun. Within a few months, the business did so good I was managing my own store. Due to the rapid expansion and mismanagement that followed, the business rapidly collapsed and I went back into school. Had to do something.
My second round of school turned out to be full time employment in the Dean's office. After a few years of gaining skills with all the opportunities presented to me, I used the reference to get a maintenance job running a manufacturing plant. I started at the bottom and got promoted to senior electronic technician in six months. Its not the glamorous job title of engineer or anything, but I do get to play with 3 megawatts and lots of large assemblies of DC motors, servos, encoders, and high voltage test equipment.
I have found most industry is pretty much the same and the skills are transferable. Its nice staying in an industry where job security is always available.
No kidding. Take as many business and accounting classes as you can stand, then decide on a business you might want to open. Learn about supply chains and relationships. Decide if you want to franchise, how to get your loans, and start planning your due process. Due process isn't something you're going to get done in a month and a half either - find where you really will be needed, map out every town you are considering, calling every similar business in town, and make a company that really makes sense. Go for stability first.
That's the best I have without knowing your specific skill set and real interests. You have several friends right now which might help in a PC-related business, but a PC-related business might not be the best business to open either. If you take this route, you have years of intense research ahead of you that you might have never expected - but you might make something you can be really proud of too.
:^)
Ryan Fenton
I experienced the same as you when I graduated: I guess it's a "course end syndrome".
My guess is that you can't stand attending classes anymore (that's what happened to me, basically because the projects and subjects were pretty academic), so the object of your study gets pretty annoying. What helped me was graduation. The moment my classes ended and I begun real-life job hunting and working, CS became beautiful again.
Honest, this isn't a flame. But if you're only getting C's in computer science, you're not going to enjoy it. Your either too dumb, or too lazy, or you just don't have the affinity for it. CS is a field where you will only really like it if you have a compulsive side to your personality. Where you enjoy getting things perfect. And that generally translates to mostly A's. You might reconsider your profession and think about doing something else that doesn't require perfection, like teaching or selling insurance...
RM
Hobbies are the answer if you ask me. I'm studying Computer Science, and I try to spend my liesure time doing stuff that really interests me - in my case writing music, which is great because I get to mess around with computers (Cubase, MIDI etc.) as well. Keep life varied, and don't think of CS as who you are, merely something that you do.
There's different about being FORCED to do CS that makes it lose its lustre. I used to program. Hell, I took one look at a Doogie Howser rerun, saw his little journal computer, and created my own program to do just that.
That was a long time ago. Since then, I went through a few high school CS classes. THOSE were enough to burn me out on the whole programming thing. Goofing off in a classroom full of old 8088's, 8086's, and one great 286 was how I spent my class time, instead of listening to the teacher. We'd create programs to drive the electron guns of the monitor directly, creating psychadelic patterns. Then I'd get on a computer during the class period the program was due, create it, debug it (rarely), and print it. Programming lost its challenging appeal to me, and became mundane and tedious.
To this day, I hate programming. I hate programmers. I tried explaining my job to someone in a bar, he asked if I was like a programmer, and I almost started a fight. To me, it has become an insult. Anyone can create a "Hello World" program, and after that it's all the same.
Personally, I'm trying to get into Computer Enginnering. At my school it's basically Electrical Engineering with a computer emphasis. More digital logic classes. Microprocessor classes. Classes on the development and implementation of operating systems. Hopefully dealing with the hardware at such a miniscule level, even having to worry about key debouncing, will keep me from becoming bored with it. Maybe it won't.
Just remember that if you think CS is boring now, think about how it will be if you work for some software house. Sure, you'll be paid, and the challenges will be bigger. But in the end, you'll just be some guy sitting in a darkened room hunched over a keyboard staring at a monitor for 8+ hours a day.
CounterStrike will always be fun?
I got a B.S. in C.S. degree (William & Mary, '97) from a fairly programming-intensive department. I hate programming. It's just not my thing. But I found that I really liked the systems work that I did, and gravitated toward the SysAdmin side of things, and have been happily working in that field since graduation. Well, as happy as any SysAdmin can be.
In my CS program, we got exposed to (in addition to coding), OS design, system administration, databases, chip design, and robotics. If you can't find one thing in that to hold your interest, you probably have the wrong major.
So my advice would be to find the parts of the CS curriculum that you enjoy, and try to work in those areas. There is such a wide variety of work that you should be able to find something to specialize in, while using the stuff you learned in your CS program.
I went through a similar crisis last year: I realized that although I enjoyed (when I could get enough sleep, that is) theKI`n my CS curriculum, I didn't really enjoy the grinding out of programs. Furthermore, I realized that there was a very slim chance that I would be employed to think about fun things (read: math more complicated than linear algebra). So what did I do? I went pre-med. With an extra two semesters to spare compared to the poster, I can finish the pre-reqs just in time, and along the way, the biology, physics, and chemistry are a pleasant change from CS courses. It may well turn out that I don't go to med school, but instead dart off to pursue some other interest yet unknown to me, but at least I have one guaranteed path to tread that does not involve pointy haired bosses, and the drudgery of writing for loops all day long.
Do some work on an open source project you like.
If you have the time, this is much more interesting than real work or school. Plus, you'll learn a whole hell of a lot more.
True there may not be huge leaps in CS or EE as a disipline, but there are wonderful cutting edge applications of this knowledge. I get to work on the Hubble Space Telescope Science Instruments, others at our company are sending a spacecraft slamming into a comet, building weather satellites, earth imaging satellites getting 2sqft per pixel resoultion. I have a great job that is fun and challenging. Use your CS knowledge and apply it in a field you enjoy.
Don't do something because you think it will pay well. Money's important, but if you're going to be unhappy, then your code will be crappy, and team morale will suffer and your company will suffer, which means your pay will suffer, or you won't get promoted, or you won't get raises, or you'll be fired. This leads you to hate your job more, and you end up in a little cycle. It probably isn't worth it, although that's a decision that you have to make.
I think the problem isn't that you're losing interest in CS, but that it has taken over your life. If you spend almost all of your time doing a single thing, you *will* get bored and frustrated with it, and eventually lose all motivation. You need to "diversify your portfolio" a bit. There's a bunch of things you can do to do this:
Academics: Take an extra year and do a minor. Chances are you've already got most of the prerequisites for something way off your field, like biology or english. You'll learn something new and interesting, and possibly even pick up a new skillset. Besides, it sounds cool to say that you've mastered two completely unrelated fields.
Time Off: Take a weekend, week, month or year off; whatever you can afford to get away for. In that time *DON'T TOUCH A COMPUTER*. Don't even bother with email. It also helps to get away from where you're doing most of your work. This could be a trip to another continent, or just to the next town over.
Hobbies: Non-geeky hobbies are great for "fixing your head", I've found, especially if they're somewhat physical. Get a bike-- mountain biking is a brilliant quick fix if there are trails near where you live, or since winter is coming, go skiing. Hell, even a quick run (as much as I hate running) will put things into perspective sometimes, especially if done on a cool, crisp fall evening.
Of course there's always the weeklong bender of booze and drugs, but that's just not that healthy...
Now go! Turn of the computer and get away from Slashdot! There's hope for ya yet!
It's only software!
I was a CS major and I'm now a developer. I know your pain, man. I thought it would be all fortune and glory, that I'd change the world, that I'd make things better somehow.
I was able to carry that excitement through to my first few gigs - all for small companies. Eventuallu I busted my ass and got a gig as CTO of a startup. I busted my ass all day every day to build a cutting edge XML web publishing architecture. We were on the bleeding edge. It was a cool project and a huge ego-infator.
Then the company had money problems. My project was the first thing to go, and me with it. Two years of hard work, good thinking and belief got me what? Two weeks severance.
I got another gig with a giant publishing company, where I'm a little cog in a giant machine. I go to meetings, write specs and code, and try to stay out of trouble. And you know what? It pays the rent. I don't give a rat's ass what I'm doing all day anymore. Why?
I got back into music, where I have complete control, and the results are 1000 times more rewarding. People understand what I do, that it's me doing it, and that it's entertaining. That's all that matters. Maybe I'll get somewhere. Maybe I won't.
Very few of us get to work at something we believe in. The rest of us pay the bills and have hobbies. While I used to find that depressing, I now find it liberating. Who am I to aroggantly presume I can change the world? No one. Now I can just try to be happy living in it.
--Jaybill
I really dont want to ruin computing for myself, its the only break i can get from work :)
...plus i would have got really bored during the first year with the other students being at the 'what's this "commanding line" thing i keep hearing about?' stage. (call me a snob :).
Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
After that? Take some time off. It sounds like you're burned out, and need to see something else in the world. Grab a car and take a road trip, see friends you haven't seen in ages, do something beyond the normal day-to-day crap that kills us all slowly.
And then? See how it feels. After my last break (I took three months off after a year of 90-hour, 7-day weeks), I was actually looking forward to writing code again. I was looking forward to putting everything I had learned (both good and bad) from my last job to use. The perspective you get with a break is a wonderful thing.
Done with the break and still don't want what's nearby? You've got a degree in CS. You can use it to take you to amazing places. A friend of mine (the bastard!) from college is now the SA/programmer for a geologic research expidition, sailing on a boat in the Indian Ocean. Another spent a year in Madrid, working out of the Spanish offices of his company.
We've all been there. You're sick and tired of what you're currently doing. That's why college seniors are all grumpy - they've been stuck in the same place for 3-4+ years. Find some cute sophmore to shack up with for the winter, finish off the degree, and go have an adventure.
'ARRGH! Pirate Designers of the Internet, we be!'
You know that you're gonna finish the degree - you're too close to quit now. And here's the big thing. In college, they stuff you're doing is gonna suck. That's just the nature of the beast. I can count on one hand the number of interesting projects I had in college (and I spent 6 years there). Depending on where you go in the real world, it can be fun again. I know there are real world jobs in CS that are terribly dull, I have friends in them. The job I found is great - good pay, job security, and challenging work. (Of course, I actually did see an off-by-one bug this morning, but it was the first since I started here 7 months ago.) But there are CS jobs out there that are fun and challenging and everything else you miss. Don't quit yet, man!
Fly
I don't let it get in the way though, I find that taking on a project that I don't HAVE to do for a grade, is way more fun. There are thousands of projects out there that need help with coding and documentation and stuff. Just find one and make youself useful. That's the thing with school, specially, being an undergrad, it makes you feel that all your work is for naught, that nobody is using it, or worse yet, it will never see the light of day. Find something to do that will make you feel appreciated, and you'll start feeling better about the grind.
Well to begin with you may not want in this field at all. In that case go to grad school or get a job you like right off the bat. Your first job will have a direct influence on where you go once out of school. Also, with your CS skills you may consider getting an MBA and go the management route. It's always nice to have a technically proficient PHB :)
:)
However, if you do want to stay in the field there are many other avenues which I'm sure you haven't explored. For example, a few years back I used to really love website design. I loved designing the dBs, the HTML, the scripts, and integrating it all together. Then I got tired of it. Now I like doing embedded programming on bare metal. To me it's fun to poke around with the bits and bytes and talking to the chip directly.
I guess the point of my story is that there are many, many different avenues you can take with a CS degree. You may have an unexplored passion for programming in an area you haven't thought of. Perhaps you like numerical analysis, compiler design, unix programming, scripting, embeddded programming, etc... There are so many different areas of programming. Maybe you like cars. You could do programming for the on board computer. Of course, you would need a background in thermo, etc.. but hey its definitely an applied programming art. The most important thing is to think outside the box, or in this case PC
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
Seriously, if you're feeling a bit burned out, take a year or two off and do what the rest of the world does after high school/college: travel and pick up some non-geek hobbies. Besides giving your brain a break, you'll be exposed to a whole new world of people and opportunities.
Buy a backpack and comfortable sleeping bag and head off to Hawaii or Australia to start off(which avoids culture shock while you get into the travelling mode). Learn to surf and pick up some basic outdoor skills (backpacking, rock climbing, mountaineering) - which will challenge your mind enough and provide activities for anywhere you go. Most important: have fun. This is the one time in your life you can do this.
If you lean more towards the cold weather scene: become a ski bum for a few years.
-Chris
that yuo are not NOT interested in CS and tech stuff, just that yuo havent found a way to apply yourself. It seems that yuo used to be entertained and it was interesting for yuo to code stuff: the question is: what did yuo like to code??? i am assuming that yuo didnt just sit around and implementing what was in some textbook, as yuo do now... find something in the field, such as AI or grafX or whatever; graduate, then spend some time resting from school, as it appears that yuo are burned out, then start a project in whatever yuo are interested in (or go to grad school), and make yuor OWN company, so there will be no deadlines ppl will give yuo, no bosses to deal with etc. most ppl have problems with being in the field because they are unmotivated, and dont want to excel. but then again, every field is like that: if yuo are just the average joe, then boredom sets in pretty quickly....
BSD is for people who love UNIX. Linux is for those who hate Microsoft.
bitching about a 3.0 in CS?
I was lucky I got a 2.0.. I hated school, especially my CS classes. I could barely drag myself to them every day.
But I managed to graduate, got a programming job, and really enjoyed what I did. I've found that studying CS in school has little to do with what people do in the real world (with some exceptions, of course.)
I've found that school can be a huge drag if it's not what you're into. Maybe you're just sick of school. That's what my problem was.
So, dont give up on CS completely. But try to keep your options open (like for going back to school, if you really hate working CS in the real world, too.)
-J5K
The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
I don't think that this is really a computer science related question.
I mean that almost everyone reaches a point in their lives (usually somewhere in their twenties) when they come to the realization that they are not destined for true greatness. That they'll probably just lead ordinary lives, one in billions.
Don't get me wrong here, there is still plenty of oppourtunity for joy and even, dare I say it, job satisfaction. But we can't all change the world.
And I think that the poster was expressing this, more than a dis-satifaction with computer science.
Or, hopefully, I'm wrong. About everything.
Jeez, how negative can you get?
:P
I got my CS degree in may, although I've been working "in the real world" through a co-op since january. And compared to school, I -love- it. Yes, of course the projects aren't going to be as interesting as you want, and there's the beaurocrats, and all the other stuff you mentioned.
But compared to boring classes where a good percentage of the professors are even dumber than PHB's, or at the least, even MORE close-minded, working for a real company, with real goals, and real projects, is amazing.
And no, I don't work for some new-wave dotcom...I work for IBM, one of the oldest dinosaurs out there. So if I can deal with it, and still love it, even after struggling to stay awake through college (and only come out with a 2.7GPA), then others can too.
It ain't easy to kill a geek
It could just be a simple case of burnout. Its totally understandable. Remember, you've been doing this now for four straight years. It's bound to take its toll. The same thing happened to me after 6 years of undergraduate and graduate Mathematics. I didn't want to prove one more god damn theorm after that!
The good news though is that you'll probably get over it. Once you've graduated and wound down a bit you may find that the love of all things programming may come back. My advice: take some time off after graduation to just unwind. Don't worry about computers and such and go do some of the other things you love. You'll probably find that you'll rediscover the excitment you had before you went to college.
I'll point this out right now -- I didn't major in CS, I majored in CIS. Please don't laugh, it was a while ago, and the price was right.
I wanted to take CS for the longest time, but when it came time to actually go off to college and university, things changed, shit happened, and I ended up with an I between the C and the S.
Anyways, from what I understood at the time, wasn't CS supposed to be about lofty, theoretical-type stuff like crazy algorithms, AI and the minute details of how a computer actually works in the first place.
I was talking to someone the other night who was in CS at a university in, shall we say, south-west-Ontario. What are they taking in their first semester?
Visual Basic 6.0.
Now, since I didn't actually take CS per se, maybe I shouldn't say anything, but wtf? VB? Is that really the language anybody would want to start off with, let alone CS majors?!
VB is simple and powerful and all and makes for decent RAD, but sweet baby jesus, should universities start off with it for CS?
Going from a more "traditional" learning language like C or Pascal to VB is dumbing down to me. I can see Java these days what with the OO and all, but VB just baffles me.
J
Whatever you like to do, you'll do well.
Don't be fooled by the boring classes. If you did enjoy working with computers before the classes, you probably still will. Countless students have wrongly been turned away by incompetent teaching from careers they would have loved.
Despite all the other postings saying "do something else", my advice would be to find exactly what you like to do, even if it's in the computer field, and then go for it on your own.
As a happy, successful software engineer/architect (and yes, occasional middle manager) with 28 years of programming experience -- I've taught classes in programming, but NEVER taken one -- my experience may be rare, but I recommend the path I've taken.
-David.
Before you toss all that learning out the window, at least give the real world a try first. Asuming you only look at the CS field (though you aren't limited to this) there are many aspects to tis field. Hardware support, software support, software maintenance and developnment. Each field is different and in many instances a psition will encompass parts of each area.
As far as your GPA. Ignore it. I graduated with a 3.95 (in Business?) and have yet to have anyone ask. Real life isn't a stupid boring class exercise.
Last, realize this: just having a degree qualifies you for many jobs. Additionally, prospective employers will view your computer expertise as an asset in almost any job.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Software development is, contrary to what the corporate establishment wants you to believe, more craft than trade - indeed a kind of art, in a way. You've never heard about John Q. Public, who put himself through art school because he had to (parent pressure? promise of economic stability?). But you sure hear about Mozart and Tchaikovsky. And Van Gogh and Monet. And so on.
If you don't love to write code then you're never going to be particularly good at it, period. All the really good developers I've ever met were passionate about what they did (not radical or political about any single aspect of the job, just passionate). And anyone who's actually held a real job for more than a few years will tell you that there's no fate worse than waking up every morning and having to go to a job you really don't like.
Don't feel bad about your doubts. There's always time to go back and do things right. Find what you want to do, and do it. I spent four years of college studying biochemistry and then decided that I liked coding better instead -- and never looked back.
The best job in the world is the one you love, not the one that pays more.
My advice. Sit back and ask yourself what's really important to you and what you enjoy. In my case, I liked teaching and programming, but not the rest of the baggage that came with being a faculty member. I got into instructional technology, and it's been a much better fit. I'm not rich, but I don't wake up in the morning dreading work.
Do you like to write? Check out technical journalism or documentation. Would you rather just nail boards together? No shame in being a carpenter.
Perhaps no job sounds like fun. In that case, go get an MBA and head for the money. You can enjoy yourself in your time off.
The decision can be wrenching-after all that work, why would you just throw it away? I get asked that all the time. The short answer is that I'm happy now.
Eric
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
I take a break. Try something different. Let the world sink in and come back with a new prospective. I have done lost of fun stuff on my breaks from the computer. I am in break mode now. I work with computers and have computers as a hobby. So my current break has me building a boat. It is relaxing to not have to think about computers in the evening.
If you would like to look you can see the pics at my boat page Some of my other projects are on my home page at This Location
I wish you well and hope you can find a relase to help take your mind off of computers for a short time. I have found that when I go back to comptuers it is fresh and new and the joy is back!
I think this is part of the reason open source efforts seem to get some work. Take that seed that got you interested in CS and put it towards a deadline-free, manager-free open source project that meets a need you see. Or write some code on the side to release that meets a need that's screaming to you. Or just do something fun, like learn to program a game for the Atari 2600 (sign up at http://www.biglist.com/lists/stella/ for a useful listserv on that subject).
I think the trick has to be to find a different job and see if you have the compulsion to write code. If you do, and you find a need that you can fit, you won't be able to stop coding. Either your hobby will pan out, or it'll be the way towards landing a related job.
If you don't keep writing, don't bother with another major -- just go for what drives you. As an English degree holder turned dba, believe me, it's not as tough as it sounds. A 3.5 overall (regardless of degree) is enough to get you in the door at most any entry level position.
It's all 0s and 1s. Or it's not.
I know how you feel. I hated programming in college.
When I started in the industry, I was a Network Administrator (in name only - certainly not in pay). For me, it wasn't about the money, it was the thirst for knowledge.
I had been dabbling in Linux for a few years at that point, and I knew Windows 9X and Netware, but I didn't know NT. I learned NT inside and out in four months, went on to infrastructure - first LANs (switches are our friends, collision domains are not) and then WANs.
When that got old I took interest in my then company's AS/400. I changed jobs, and did the Network thing a little a couple other places until I got here. After all, who was going to pay me for what I didn't know?
Apparently, my current company was. My boss asked me if I wanted to try being a DBA since we didn't really have one, and the amount of data we managed had grown in a pretty short period of time. That was two years ago. Not only do I love being a DBA, but it gave me a new appreciation for programming I never had when I was in college. I avoided it for years, and by giving myself a break and a chance to do other things I had come to appreciate it again.
Change it up man - it will do you good.
"All I ever wanted was to see Larry Wall give Bill Gates a Perl necklace."
http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen
Well I'm a 27 year old developer and I'm still enjoying what I do. I work for a small company that has no legacy code and I spend most of my time creating completely new things. I have a boss who's a cool laid back guy who respects me and appreciates the contributions I make. I've got co-workers who I really enjoy working with.
Personally I was bored to death doing a regular CS curriculum so I ended up graduating with a minor in it, and a Sociology degree of all things. Ironically I did more useful computer work for the Sociology deparment than I did for CS. CS was constantly solving abstract mathematical problems and instead I was applying my knowledge and building useful tools for real people.
The one negative I do run into is that I've tried to stick with smaller more creative companies which has made for a somewhat turbulent career path. I spent two years doing great work for a company, then moved on to a new job where I twiddled my thumbs for a year while the company slowly went under. Now I'm at a new company that's got a whole lot of potential but may not even be here in a year's time. I'm sure a job at some big corporation would provide more security, but then again I'm actually enjoying my job so I'm willing to make that sacrifice.
Why? Why don't you work on personal projects in your spare time that interest you?
If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
The bad news: :-)
The workplace can be worse. You think you're bored now? Just wait.
The good news:
It's just a job. It doesn't define who you are. Don't sweat it. All jobs have bit of this.
If you enjoy it (i.e. writing code), fantastic! Apply your skills to outside projects. The stuff I work on outside of work crushes anything I get (directly) paid for.
I didn't get my current job by my past work experience. My personal projects got it for me. Have fun with it.
CS/EE types are predestine for greatness in flying!
I can sympathize with the sentiment of the original poster, though not his particular situation. What you do in school is often much more fun that what you'll do on the job later. In school you can be introduced to some new idea, then get all enamored with it and have fun just learning for the sake of learning. On the job you mostly deal with a small set of known technologies and there's not much variety.
That aside, I've gotten disenchanted with computers after getting a B.S. and working professionally as a programmer for over a decade. The problem is that programming has been replaced by drowning in a sea of APIs and help files and systems that are loosely defined yet still require 1,000 pages of documentation. A certain GUI call doesn't do what you expect it to do, so you look through knowledge bases and do google searches and sift through example code. Then you find out that no one really knows the answer, so you twiddle around until it works, but then you're never sure why the fix works at all.
For example, try to understand the format of a Windows executable to the point where you could create your own (let's say you're writing a small compiler). Searching for an hour on the web turns up lots of specs, but they're all thin and full of holes and they don't agree with each other. Just *exactly* what does field X do? When do you need to set it? Why do some executables set it to $FF when the legal values are in the range of 0..3, and yet those executables still work? These kinds of issues are pervasive in any modern system, be it Windows, MacOS, or Linux+X+KDE. And they erode your soul.
I understand perfectly what you're going through. I was in that sort of a situation, except I'm in engineering. What I wound up doing is examining what it was that really interested me to persue a degree in it. Once I did that, I found out what is out there in my field that my interests can be directly applied to and did everything that I could to get into that type of work. It worked for me.
Good luck.
What I've found in my 12 year career so far is that your enjoyment of a job is going to be much more related to the /people/ you work with and not really so much about what you are doing. Finish your degree and find a job at a company that seems like it has other people like you there. Work there and get to know everyone. You will find that your team has much more to do with whether you want to get up in the morning or not.
;)
Secondly, pretty much every job out there can either be categorized as "production", "admin" or "sales". CS is production. Accounting is admin. Business development, marketing, salespeople and most executive positions actually are just sales roles. Most programmers I know *hate* both accounting and sales.
It may be that you're a little burned out right now, but even solving off by one bugs all day is a lot better than selling copiers.
p.s. It pays better than selling copiers too, even in these down times.
"The difference between theory and practice is small in theory and large in practice..."
You know... programming by itself is just a tool. Like construction or something.. Programming on a particular project is only as interesting as the idea that is being implemented. Boring idea, boring programming. My suggestion to you... find an idea in the computer field which gets you off and start coding it... or look for people who are working on similar ideas and code with them...
what do you want to do for a career in CS? program (heh)? be a sysadmin? research? if research is your bag then pour on the work and get those marks for graduate school! grad school may be where your dreams come true
... but for the love of [anything] GET THAT PIECE OF PAPER!
What I find interesting is that I have had the same feelings this past week thanks to a couple projects that are pointless and not fun to do.
After reading other comments posted here I realize that what they are saying is true. Get out into the field and see what develops. This may not be the best time to jump in with all the layoffs and such but there is still room to get your foot in the door somewhere. Perhaps getting a job coding isn't for you right away, get a job doing something else computer related (And take the lower salary unfortunatly) until that need to code gets you to the point that your making your own little apps on the weekends for your own use. That right there is rediscovering the wonders of creation. When your back at the point that you want to implement something in a personal webpage or in an app just because the technology for it just came out and it looked cool you'll be ready to look for a coding job. With any luck if you picked the right place to work during this downtime you might have the experience and the inside edge to get a coding position that you couldn't have gotten right out of college.
Reading these responses has helped me see the light at the end of the tunnel myself. I know that there is an end to the mindless sorting algorithms and basic socket programming. I know that this will be fun again in the future.
Don't give up.
I'd definitely stick it out and finish the degree because comp sci skills still allow you to earn a living. However, you should spend some time exploring things that might be fun. I've started doing that recently with over ten years in the field and am stumbling towards a career in writing. It's a nice dream, but I ain't gonna give my day job anytime soon because it does put a roof over my head. The trick there is to find an institution you enjoy working at. I'm real lucky there. Even so I am getting burned out and I do feel a need to go and do something else. Several years ago I did a public school outreach program where they sent majors in various fields to be a stand in lecturer for a day at Detroit public schools. I had an absolute blast doing that. I was a physics major and I brought all sorts of electromagnetic toys I made out of junk for the kids to check out. I was absolutely drained after a day of excited middle schoolers, but I wanted to do it again. Lately I've been revisting those memories and thinking it might be fun to teach. So that's another field worth exploring because you get to deal with people seeing the subject for the first time and their freshness can make it all fun again. Of course, teaching public schools is quite another thing, and I know enough about the classroom situation, the pay and poltics to balk a little about jumping off CS and getting my teaching certificate, but I'm still looking.
(Redundant) Do something else. Take a degree in something completely unrelated. I suggest literature. This will allow you several more years of school - during which you will spend most of your time arguing over the merits of a 15th century poet, or a 19th century novelist with people that you pretend to relate well to. In reality - they're your enemy, the competition, the other 10,000 people who'll be competing - post graduation - for the five jobs that exist in the field. But you will have a secret advantage - after you're refused admission to grad school, your dissertation proposal is rejected, or you get the 200th little yellow rejection slip from the publisher - you can venture back to cubicle land, sit back down before your sickly glowing crt and begin the arduous task of debugging tens of thousands of lines of code designed to ensure that the insurance industry accurately measures the risks involved in fly fishing.
Or, like a lot of displaced lit majors - you'll end up working in a coffee house, spending your tips on DSL and ram. When you get tired of that, do something else.
Remember - most people in this day and age will have something like five distinct careers (actually - I'm making that number up - but I know it's a lot) So get started early. Change you major early and often.
\Drew National Data Director, John Edwards for President
Look at what you do for fun, and find a profession in that. I've always messed with computers during all my life, and that's what I quickly realized I should get into once I reached college and I realized that I could get a bit of money doing what I enjoyed.
This is one of those questions where 200 different people have 200 different opinions on the matter. My take on the subject is this:
First, get the degree. That piece of paper can open a lot of doors for you.
Second, talk to your advisors and campus job-placement center. That's what they are there for.
Third, take advantage of other opportunities that present themselves and that sound interesting. What you study in college may very well have nothing to do with your career in the long run.
Do you have any hobbies or clubs you belong to that are not CS-related? Have you done or experienced anything that you think you'd enjoy delving into even more? If all else fails, there's always grad school, too.
----------
Something cleverI wouldn't worry because what you're doing in school will have little to do with what you'll actually do at your job.
Get a job. A friend of mine was in a doctorate program and began feeling the same way you are now. He decided to write his thesis, get his masters and he landed a very rewarding, high paying job.
In this age of 401k, it's easy to jump to a new job when you current work becomes jaded, too...
I think a lot of non-adrenaline-based non-social fun has this in common: a challenge, that is not too hard to meet, but that gives a sense of accomplishment afterwards. Ideally it should be silly and/or have no useful impact on the world (like a cross-stitch project or a hike - not like cleaning the basement or a class assignment). Once you remember what fun is like, then you can get back to considering making an impact, because any piece of code that makes an impact requires support and maintenance and stability and responsibility, which, if you're already in a black mood and drowning in tedium, will probably not help matters.
[This advice is unspecific because I discovered that my friend and I do not do any of the same things for fun (I like write-only perl, he likes contemplating algorithms and theory?), so I do not think a list of "stuff I hacked up on a lark" will help jog anyone's memory of what part of CS they used to like.]
"The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life"
You fucking find something else to do, that's what. Guess what, most things in life rarely live up to expectations. As Denis Leary said, "Happiness comes in small doses. It's a cookie, or a cigarette, or a five second orgasm. You cum, you eat the cookie, you smoke the butt, and you go to sleep. End of fucking story."
So CS isn't fun anymore.. Quit crying about it and move on.
--
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
I just graduated this past May, and I can definately identify with these feelings. I was there at the end of last year.
What turned it back around for me was taking a class that had NOTHING to do with graduation requirements. In fact, it only went towards general credit, not even core curriculum credit. For me, it was intereactive computer graphics that reminded me what fun it is to play with computers.
Just trying to keep up with changing classes and getting into full classes and taking STUPID required courses (thank you, but I don't _need_ to take an entire course on html) was what was grinding on me. If that is how you are feeling I suggest you try what I did. Just find any old course that looks like fun. Or even a project, there were some cool robotics projects that were always looking for people. Or talk to a favorite professor and try and set up an independant study, or work on research. If however, you just are tired of computers in general, then get out now. You still have time to get some other degree.
John
-These aren't my pants.
Your university is not there to help you have fun and turn you into a Ubergeek, it's there for the exact opposite : chiefly, it teaches you methodologies (because your future boss is very unlikely to appreciate your geek powers, but he *will* appreciate your methods) and it is boring because IMHO schooling is as much about testing is students are patient and brave enough to finish their classes as it is about teaching them something (What I mean is, if you finish a tough school, you'll be proud of it and your future boss will be impressed. If your school was fun and easy, the diploma wouldn't be worth much).
The other thing is, the reason why you enjoy working on your own projects after hours in your dorm room so much is precisely because the rest of your day was boring : imagine if you had fun at school, would you be that compelled to do something new and exciting on your own time ?
Enjoy your school years : they sure don't seem interesting to you right now, but (unfortunately) you'll probably look back fondly at them later when you realize your work doesn't leave you any time for anything fun anymore (don't get me wrong, many people manage to do projects beside their work, but a lot more people get devoured by their work or simply just loose the flame).
Good luck with your studies !
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
No one acually does for a living what they graduated college for. Most programmers are people who majored in other subjects. Ask around.
Now it's time for you to act like a freshman and find out whats fun for you.
BTW (Go for the fun stuff over the well paying stuff!)
Step 1: Graduate.
Step 2: Get a Job.
Step 3: Don't mention you GPA again, nobody will care anymore but you.
Step 4: Get certified in something.
Step 5: Do that "something"
Step 6: Get a new Job
GoTo Step 4 and repeat
I found the standard exercises in school contrived
and mind numbing too. Stick with it, you only have
another 6months. I found life after school much better and the money allows me to do what I liked
doing before I went to school again.
You've just got cold feet. Everybody goes through this in one way or another.
If you're in the last semester, you don't want to switch majors, like some of the other folks have mentioned. Finish the degree, and don't worry about whether this determines the destiny of the rest of your life. Many of the people I work with have degrees in things which are completely unrelated to their work. It's the fact that they have any kind of degree at all which is important.
Also, although some people have said that computer work tends to be less rewarding than school work, I have found the opposite to be true. Lab work always seemed antiseptic, futile, and unnecessary, but the same task for an employer is more rewarding because the work is going to be used for something, and to me this makes all the difference.
This is not to say there aren't shit jobs out there. Nor am I suggesting that you're going to get your dream job straight out of college. Only that your options aren't limited.
When I first started cs (94) my professor looked straight in my face and told me that I would not find a job and if I did it would be low paying ($35,000 a year was the figure he quoted). However, I did it anyway. Reality is that I couldn't see myself doing anything else. I like telling machines what to do. I like making these things easier to use for the less initiated. I like looking at problems from such insane perspectives. I like that. If you don't GET OUT NOW!!! If you are not interested from the get go you will not find a project to make it more interesting.
Your in the exact same postion I was in when I was finishing up my CS degree. It got really boring, I had a crappy GPA because I was bored, I really hate being told what to do, I was poor, and I hated where I lived.
What seperates school from being out in the work force is the money! In school your more or less told what to work on, at work, it's pretty much the same way. But when I was in school I went home to a ran down house, ate really bad food, drank cheap booze on the weekend, and still had homework to do. Oh ya, I paid the school for the pleasure of doing this!
Now I work on stuff that is needed by the company, but when I go home, I go home to a nice apartment, eat good food, drink nice booze on the weekends, and I can do what I want with *my* free time!
So if you think your going to make money that you live on doing some enjoyable profession, forget it! The only people who get to do what they want their whole life are children of rich parents. However, for the rest of us, there is work. Just try to enjoy what you can at work and use your free time to do the stuff you want.
Linux O Muerte!
The physicist Richard Feynman wrote in his book Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman that when he was a fledgling professor at Cornell he started to burn out. Then he saw someone in the cafeteria toss a plate up into the air and noticed that the Cornell logo on the plate spun faster than the plate wobbled. He was curious why it did that, so he worked out the physics. It was a totally meaningless calculation, but it helped him remember why he got into physics and why he liked it. As you may or may not know, he went on to win the Nobel Prize in Physics for the work in quantum electrodynamics that he did, mostly at Cornell. And now you've know the rest of the story...
The moral of the story is to do something that you want to do rather than something that you have to do for school or for class or whatever. It doesn't matter if it's been done before or if it's useless: have fun!
(My apologies to Feynmanics if I butchered the plate story--my copy of Surely You're Joking is a two hour drive away--but I think I got the gist of it right)
"It take 9 months to bear a child, no matter how many women you assign to the job."
School sucks, and I'm happy to say that most of what you're doing in class is probably going to have next to nothing to do with what you're going to do on the job. I say this because I never got a degree in computer science or any tech related field (I have a master's in colonial american history) but I taught myself programming and work as a programmer and network admin. I'd have to say that talking to my friends in and out of school that what they learn(ed) has very little to do with day to day IT jobs. They learn(ed) the fundamentals, but very little of what was taught in class seems applicable to their jobs. Granted, I don't know a lot of background material for what I do, but it doesn't really seem to hamper my job performance or promotion opportunities. If you're burned out from school I'd just look forward to a welcome change in the real world. In the end, undergraduate degrees are next to worthless. You learn how to think in college, its not a vocational training program. College will prepare you to tackle problems in the right way. Anyways, thats my two cents.
seems to me -
"a long time ago..."
- people used to have hobbies. you'd go to work, come home, eat, and then on some days you'd take up some kind of craft(s) or hobby(ies) that ate up your time and kept the rest of your brain sharp on the whole.
having something on the side that you tinker with & do on your own keeps the juices flowing by giving you something else to learn from the ground up. the learning process is truly an ongoing experience, but it doesn't mean more school, necessarily. and it doesn't necessarily have to be something career-oriented, either.
for instance, some people tinker on cars/automotive in their spare time, or work on re-finishing a room in their house. others enjoy gardening/landscaping, or reading/writing. but the general trend is that you have your work life - something that pays the bills that you can do well enough - and your hobby life, which is something creative that you do entirely on your own, for yourself.
i'm also in IT, working as a programmer/data analyst. it's boring, boring work sometimes, and before i found a few hobbies (photography, self-teaching, and exercise), i could go for a month feeling totally wiped out because of the same old, same old, without a change or anything else stimulating my brain. this of course led me to believe that i needed to do LESS things with myself, or easier things (i.e. drinking every friday night, sitting home on weekdays watching the boob tube). nothing changed in my attitude at work, and i felt worse. in actuality, doing MORE makes you feel more energized and gives you a more positive feeling on the inside.
in short: most work gets boring & repetitive after a while. that probably won't change unless you really do a career change. in the meantime, a much better method is to just take up some new hobbies & keep yourself going.
i'm amazed that i survived - an airbag saved my life.
It's not really computer science you're tired of. What school do you go to? It doesn't really matter, actually, most of them are the same: they teach you how to do specific tasks, not how to really innovate or even develop real-world applications.
It's like this. A carpenter enjoys working with wood and making creative designs, right? What if to learn carpentry, they tough you how to make every specific shape they can think of -- as apposed to how to craft things in general.
Realize now that you're in school for the peice of paper you get, at least with computer science. Thousands of students feel, and should feel, the way you do: let down by the education system. If you want that peice of paper to help you get a career, go for it. But sadly, at least in this field, most schools aren't really teaching you much.
That's my two cents anyway. I'm sure the regents of your university disagree.
-- Ken Kinder ken@_nospam_kenkinder.com http://kenkinder.com/
If you can put your CS on hold for a year and take Economics 101. Its fairly easy and what you learn the first year is enough. The following years are just same stuff with more Caveats. Then you will be in a much better position to understand and contribute once you get a CS job. Its will be a nice break from your current burn-out and immenently useful for you later.
Help fight continental drift.
I notice a lot of the replies in this thread are about becoming an IT person or writing Web apps or whatever. I would have left this field long ago if I was stuck doing admin or web development or creating client-server apps.
I was lucky enough to get a co-op job at a printer company my Junior year, where I got to do actual real-world programming "close to the hardware". This was a lot more fun than any project I ever had in any course, and pretty much put me on the track I'm still on today - embedded and realtime development on Unix-based platforms.
I've always enjoyed my career precisely because the stuff I've worked on is actually useful - and because the projects I've worked on are most successful when the users don't even know there's a computer involved. This is definitely not the same old boring programming garbage; you have a huge problem to solve and not a lot of money or time to solve it in. There is no boilerplate code to do these kinds of jobs.
Doing the same old repetitious programming assignments is not the greatest teaching tool and is certainly not the way to develop enthusiasm for your profession. But if you think outside the box just a bit and find a job that lets you use your CS skills in real-world applications, you may well find it very rewarding.
I'm young, too. I'm burnt out on living the "American Dream". I have been working for 5 years. I have a nice income. I live in a big house in the 'burbs.
It sucks. I'm in a rut. I am looking at bailing and moving back to my homestate, buying some land, and developing a sustainable dwelling while doing something that I'm passionate about. It is going to take time.
Complication: I am supporting a wife and two children. Recently, my wife has come round to support my view of what is important in life. IT IS NOT MONEY.
So, my advice is: finish the degree, find a job, and explore your passion. You have time. You don't have to have everything now. Exercise patience.
"Don't put a question mark where god puts a period."
You might not want to join my own TUNES project, that is mostly vapourware at the point; but you'll find there plenty of inspiration as to how the future of computing can be imagined. Then, it's up to you to revive the project, found your own, or evolve some existing project toward something you like better.
And of course, there's no reason why you should be victim of off-by-one bugs. There are already great languages with successful implementations that will rid you of them, and provide features undreamed of by people brainwashed with C/C++/Java. Clean, Common LISP (CMUCL), Erlang, Haskell, Mercury, ML (OCAML, SML/NJ, ML-Kit), Oz (mozart), Scheme (MzScheme), Smalltalk (Squeak), and so many more, are already available, and can enable kinds of hacking impossible with lesser languages.
Just don't you use inferior systems and then complain about the braindeadness. The only obstacle between your dreams and their implementation is YOU.
-- Faré @ TUNES.org
Reflection & Cybernet
Computer related fields aren't fun if you decide to work with companies that don't push the envelope. The "cutting edge of technology" depends on what your company wishes to develope. I'm sure you'll enjoy it after college as long as you choose something you would deem as fun instead of doing something like "Internet Help Desk." College projets are dumb most of the time anyway. Unless you get to choose the project (ie. Senior Project) then it's just boring and everyone else is doing it too so it's not as glorifying.
a language that allows you to focus on ideas and not off by one bugs.
seriously, learning new computer languages can really break the monotony.
I too had a similar experience. Sounds like you just need to see more of what computer science is about. The classroom is a great place to learn a good set of skills, but I found it really doens't get interesting unitl later, in the real world or grad school. Consider this, I've run into a variety of people in my career and in my graduate studies that I consider true masters of their craft. They all had one thing in common, they could leverage their skills to do somthing fun or interesting. While your still dealing with off by one errors, when you fix that error and look at the whole puzzle that you've been working on you feel a definite wave of coolness wash over you. Nobody I know of likes to hunt down null pointer exceptions, however, if fixing the exception makes some hot new JSP render a kick'en page....the results are definitely worth it. My advise is: take a look at what kinds of things you can do with computers...if you think you would enjoy being the creator of such things stick with it, otherwise move on. Write a program for yourself to do somthing cool, remind yourself why you started this in the first place.
BOFH, My model for being a sysadmin :)
From the: It's-in-there-somewhere dept.
Find your soul. A metaphysical question? Somewhat.
I studied both CS and philosophy in college. I have a BA in CS, and almost a BA in Phil. CS is what I do, but philosophy is what I am. Philosophy is what makes me get up in the morning, drag my ass to work, program mindless code (somedays) and still stay sane and happy. I know I always have that other subject to turn to once CS has done all it can to fulfill me.
Philosophy may not be your answer. It may be music, or art, or sports, or (perhaps) pr0n. Whatever it is, find it, and study it as well. Be as diligent about maintaining your connection with that "other side" of you as you are in striving to become a Code God(TM).
After being in the work force for a year and a half after graduation, I know now that when I go back to do grad school, I'll be doing it in philosophy, not CS. Mind you, it'll most likely be on philosophy of mind and artificial intelligence, but it will be philosophy. Computers are great, and I love them to pieces, but they don't make me want to live. Find your life force and go with it. Happiness and excitement derive from being more than one-dimensional.
Blog,Twitter
Do you think it's CS you hate, or school? As Albert Einstein said, "It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education."
The big thing that is missing in school is users. It's like saying that being a pilot isn't fun anymore because you have gotten sick of flight simulators. In the real world it isn't clean "just implementing things out of the book" anymore. You have real people counting on you (and often, other real people counting on you to fail). The stakes (and the pressure, and the thrill) go up accordingly.
Yes, batting practice gets dull. So does field stripping a gun. But we do these things, not as an end in themselves, but so we'll be ready when it's for real. That's when the fun starts.
-- MarkusQ
Turn to the other CS - counter-strike!
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
Anyway, here's my last ditch effort to make this on topic. I left the military after 14 years because it simply wasn't what I wanted to do anymore. The path I was taking was crystal clear and I wanted nothing to do with it, so I left and I am doing well in my new compu-centric career. It's never too late to change your mind. If you don't like it, leave and find something you do.
...and become an economist. Well, I'm almost done. I dropped CS after a year, though, so I had the advantage of not spending all of my time going for a CS degree I didn't want.
I like to think that if I ever wanted to learn CS, I could pick up a few textbooks on a subject (say, assembler) and read up. But I'm able to read a book and learn the material...
College isn't about what degree you get anyways. You should know that by now if you're just about to graduate.
And there's always the military... I hear they're hiring.
I spent three years in the Army and I love my nice indoor programming job. Even if I am having to spend time this week debugging three year old uncommented VBA programs when I don't know VB Script.
Best Slashdot Co
Can I borrow your tinning kit for a second? This wumpus corpse isn't getting any fresher!
Three Step Plan:
1. Take over the world.
2. Get a lot of cookies.
3. Eat the cookies.
Wait 'til you've been working in the field for more than 10 years! Talk about boring. The same problems and the same arguments every job. If you don't like it while you're in school you never will. Change majors before it's too late!!!
IT jobs largely suck, as far as the technology goes. You're lucky to be fixing your own off-by-one bugs. Get a job and you'll be fixing the botched linked list implementation your brain-dead coworkers wrote when they overlooked the fact that the platform provides one for you. You'll be sifting through miles of horrible code that no one really understands, since every development effort is only concerned with the shortest path between The Code That Exists and The Shipping Product.
Really. All the interesting tech happens in universities or research labs. Sitting in front of a monitor all day gets to be a drag even then.
Management.
;)
My cube. My friend. My solace. My prison.
A kid can leave HighSchool and get a Programming job. The study of computer Science although my teach some programing is more of a study in problem solving and learing skills in making jobs run faster, simpler, and more efficient. I use Computer Science Skills in more then just programing. I use it from technical skills in System Administration and Computer Support. And I also use them with other people from showing a better way to orginize the Forks Spoons and Knives in the Univeristy Commons. Or organizing large numbers of people to do complicated things with simple instructions they can follow. Its Computer Science Not Computer Programing. It also sound like you have Bad Profs too. I had some classes with Bad profs that made the Topic seem useless because I did everything out of the Book while I had srom Really good Profs who were more challanging and forced me to think of new Ideas.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I enjoy programming. I have a lot of fun with creating and designing things that work for either myself or other people or both. And I got into programming knowing that I enjoyed it.
Problem is, most programming on a corporate level really isn't much fun.
What I did for a while was what someone else suggested -- I switched from programming to admin, then back again. In between I discovered what really does work for me.
Now I do unix admin work for my "real" job, and I write Palm software for fun. Their are lots of opportunities if you're willing to create *good* software. Good freeware is extremely hard to find, and even shareware is generally overpriced. And if what you enjoy is creating software, it can be extremely rewarding.
But if what you've found is that you *don't* enjoy creating software, then get out. Find something you do enjoy, and do that for a living. Forget the money -- it's unlikely to be significant anyway. And the big money comes to people who are extremely good at their job -- and those people enjoy what they are doing.
I've dealt with too many people who came into this for the money and who had no idea why assembly language might be a good idea (a senior in CS) or who didn't know the difference between RAM and disk space (an "experienced" Java programmer). These people don't belong in the field.
The point is, if you enjoy programming or admin type work, then you can find ways to earn a living doing things in the workforce that are tolerable and sometimes fun, then go home and do the really fun stuff. If you don't enjoy computers, it's time to find something you do enjoy. Save those of us on the outside who aren't interested in another bored consultant, and save yourself by finding something that excites you.
Sean.
"What do you do when it isn't fun any more, but you'd like it to be?"
It sounds to me like you need something more exciting and challenging.
Do you remember the Slashdot poll a few weeks back, the one asking "What's your favorite chemical?" I suggest that you start dropping acid or taking a few tabs of E before going to class. When you start developing projects that include subroutines to clear out your reality buffer, you know you're going somewhere.
After a few quarters of that, you will find the essence of CS, or you will drop out of college and go wander around India for a years. Come to think of it, India has a burgeoning tech sector, so you can't lose.
In the immortal words of Chef: "Remember, children, that there is a time and a place for everything. And that place is college."
so do what i did, drop out get married have a kid work in a plant nursery, construction, department stores, find the answer to life in the engine of an old pontiac, follow the grateful dead for a summer, go back to grad school, study philosophy, language, buddhism, taoism, thisism, thatism, discover the net get a cushy job working on a web site teach yourself perl, java, html, javascript, ... learn martial arts tai chi, meditation, in short "follow your bliss"
Dude, I think you have a case of what we call "Senioritis". I caught this when I was in my final semester as well. I think the desease caused me to get a 1.5 that semester (although that's all sorta fuzzy). The only known cure I know of is to go out every night and get totally tanked off your ass.
For real tho, enjoy college while you can man, the real world blows.
What do you mean, 'CS isn't fun any more?' Do you just mean that your classes aren't fun any more? That's natural -- I love CS, but Discrete Math was almost the end of me. (I couldn't STAND the smug Knuth 'Concrete Mathematics' book.)
CS isn't just about writing code and pushing bits. You could do any of these things in the CS field:
And these are just a few ideas. Saying that you don't like CS is silly -- CS is a means, not an end. You can pick any end you want with the skills a CS education gives you.
I'm feeling much the same way myself - I'm in 3rd year Comp Sci and working full-time for a high tech company.
Don't blame CS on your burnout - Blame IT. First, IT is BORING. It's repetitive, it's bland, but it's the bread and butter of the industry.
Second, the manner in which universities teach IT - at least the manner in which SFU teaches IT - is deplorable. The profs are sessionals who I can only surmise are teaching because they couldn't hold a job in the industry. The curriculum is half-baked because universities really don't understand software engineering.
Get a job, and try something more interesting like maybe embedded systems. Keep up with the degree, but consider finishing it part-time.
pHalec
Here are two of the possible things at play here:
1 - You are getting Senioritis. This is a common occurance when you are nearing the end of your college career. You begin to feel very apathetic about your classes. You start to miss class. Your grades become unimportant other than the bare minimum to pass. Etc, etc, etc.
2 - You are beginning to realize that programming is no longer magical, it takes a lot of work to get something working to spec, and clients (teachers) are demanding more of you than you feel is necessary.
As others have said: Welcome to the "real" world. However, I am not going to continue on the thread that others have started. There is HOPE! While certainly there will be times in your life where you will be asked to do things that seem to be drudgery, there will also be times that you will sit back and watch a program that you wrote do something apparently simple, and you will be awed by what you have done. You will know the ins and outs of the code so intimately that it will feel like you are personally executing the code. These are the times to live for and cherish.
As for school, I am in my last semester (Yahooo!) and the only way that I am surviving is that I am taking classes that _I_ wanted to take, not any that the college or university forces me to take for prerequisites or core competencies. Hopefully your university allows some "electives" in your major to finish off the degree. Find something that you are interested in, the more difficult the better, and challenge yourself to get a 4.0 your last semester. You may or may not get it, but you will have a goal. That can make all the difference in the world.
Also, attend any job fairs that the school sponsors. While some say that there are no high-tech jobs available, many larger companies are recruiting newly graduated engineering/science majors right and left. By receiving offers from the various compainies you will gain a little bit of confidence in the market. Remember, the most pessimistic of the pundits say that the market will be turning up in the middle of next year!
Finally, find something to do that you find enjoyable that doesn't have to do with computers, or at least coding. I find that I need a break every once in a while to break up the nearly constant stream of code that I am asked to create. Go to a move, go on a date, read a fictional book, go minature golfing, build a model, etc. I understand that as a CS major you have virtually no free time, but if you don't want to go crazy you need an outlet. That is something that we need to do our whole lives.
Well, you know what? College is exciting compared to most I/T jobs....I say *most* because of the old saying:
For your job, you are allowed to pick two of the following:
1) High Paying
2) Fun
3) Legal
Truthfully, I'm at the same crossroads, after 5 years at my job. The job is great when it comes to job security and location, but as far a challenging goes, heh! most of the stuff I do is pulling data from databases and displaying it in a GUI that the business folks can't decide on. That being said, I realize most of my complaints are sourcing out of the fact that my job is cushy, so its easy to complain. In other words, go work in a nursing home for a week or two and then maybe C.S. will become interesting.
Keep in mind that any C.S. career is going to require that you love to learn new stuff endlessly...you will get to the point where you won't want to hear about that new programming language or new standard. You might even get to the point where you care more about your life outside of work and don't mind doing the routine things to get your project done....
Yeah, its a little hard to take pleasure in routine work well done since we don't live in a egragrian society anymore....(i.e. The Village Blacksmith ) but in a world where you are only adding value to someones bottom line...and you might not even see the results of your work being used around you or helping your neighborhood, however your work ethic should be the same. Otherwise, I recommend transfering to a tech school and learning how to run electric or something.
I need a TiVo for my car. Pause live traffic now.
That could be argued to, but you'd have to choose a religion.
Just get a girlfriend, marry her, knock her up and wait 9 months. CS will look pretty darn good then.
All throughout HS i was aiming for going into a CS Degree, but by the time i reached my senior year just the preparedness was burning me out. So i chose to look at another degree and choose media arts and animation at the local Art Instutite. A degree in animation requires a use of techncal skills as it also allows you to use your creativity. The still accepting me with a lack of art classes thoughout HS. I start this winter.
Datasage
In America we are imprisoned by our fear of them.
Go somewhere and forget about CS for a few months (or a few years). Your student loan payments won't start for 6 months after you graduate and now is the freest you'll ever be. See the world. Join the Peace core; they will help pay off student loans and help you postpone current debt.
Trust me. I just graduated with a BSEE in June and I am looking forward to getting laid-off so I can travel.
However eversince I got into open source coding is much more alive and interesting than anything we were taught and suddenly much of what you learn becomes relevant and useful to some goal that you care about (rather than a boring assigment).
Also you discovering what most of us find out at some point - that we the chattle in the middle of the bell curve not the exceptional ones at either end. You just have to get used to it.
After 2 years of ECE, I got kicked out of school for bad grades for a year. The truth is, if I really enjoyed it, I would have done much better. I realized that the main problem was I was following someone else's script. I had absorbed all of the praise for engineering as a kid, and internalized it as my own desires. When I thought I enjoyed it, I was really just approval seeking towards my parents.
Now this year I am treating as if I chose to take a year off. I am making it a time for figuring out exactly what I want to do. There is actually a pretty good chance I'll end up finishing my degree, but if I end up deciding I want to be a tap dancer, I'll do that.
I think after you graduate you should refuse at first to take a job in CS. Get something that you know you don't want to do for the rest of your life, but is ok for a year or so, and has no after work stress. Then make a schedule that ends with you figuring out what it is you want to do with your life, that includes a lot of research but does not rely on logic to make your decision. At the time designated just pick your path and stick with it until you make it or fail miserably. If you fail, oh well, find something else and go at it again. You may decide to go back to CS. If you do, it will be because YOU chose it, which is the most important thing of all.
Information wants Coq
I did pretty much the same thing. Then I spent 2 years working in the Silly Valley making less money than I was worth with the empty promise of doing cool work and making a pile in stocks. The work was mind-numbing. Many of the people were either flakes or workaholics without imagination. It sucked.
Now I'm doing pretty much the same thing, but I'm working in a neuroscience lab at MIT. The people here are smart, imaginative, creative, and they have other interests. While the nature of my work hasn't changed that much, the people surrounding me are interesting, and it makes worlds of difference.
Of course, the real reason I'm here is to learn a new field before applying to grad school, and it's a good tactic - I know now what kinds of research interest me. But even aside from that, the fact that I'm working with people I really like changes everything.
BASIC (standing for Beginner's All Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code) is a system developed at Dartmouth College in 1964 under the directory of J. Kemeny and T. Kurtz. It was implemented for the G.E.225. It was meant to be a very simple language to learn and also one that would be easy to translate. Furthermore, the designers wished it to be a stepping-stone for students to learn on of the more powerful languages such as FORTRAN or ALGOL.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
I graduated from college in may, I have a great job writing software. I love my job, however, senioritis hit hard last year, (It actually started mid Junior year) I had no motavation to do my projects, because they were all pointless and mind numbing. This is a problem with most school projects. They are not real software design. In my classes at least, many projects consisted of "take this file, find the bugs and add features A-R". There was very little actual development. I think I learned more in my first week of work in the "real world" then I did in 4 years of college. The fact that it isn't fun anymore might be a result of 4 years of projects designed to make people go through the motions of design without actually doing it or even having to think about it that much. I think this is a fault of the educational system. I would have much rather had my professors say "here is a list of commands you will need to preform this task, this is the basic layout of a program, write it and I'll be around to answer any questions" then "Here is a file, change 3 lines to make it work". Give the real world a try, if you don't like it, you can always go back to school. But I think you'll rediscover the fascination. I definately did.
BTW, GPA should be abolished. Like SAT scores it has no actual relevance to intelligence, just regurgitation ability. Mine was a 2.8. I know people with 2.4 and lower who are some of the best programmers I know. The company I'm working for never asked for my transcript while I was interviewing, and they still don't have it, I've offered it to them.
I currently work in the MIS department for a large communications company. The department has 3 coders, including myself. Everything we write ends up internal to the company. We write web baed applications for tracking orders, constomer information, accounting, inventory tracking, and so on. Because everything we do is internal to the company I get to see the results of white I write right away. This is my first programming job, and It's an amazing feeling to actually be writing programs that people will be using every day. Once you get away from the types of things you do in class, like writing a nice sorting routine, and start on things like, "Develop a program to takes scanned PO's, store them in a database for later review, and add a nice interface for it all", things start getting more interesting. I would reccomend you stick with it and at least give a job a try. You are close enough to finishing your education that a little more time won't hurt, you can always use the experience elsewhere.
Without wanting to sound trite, this is the norm after three years of studying something. But more than this - it's a virtual no-brainer if you loved the subject before you went to study. If you've ever read Russell's (that's Willy, not Betrand) Educating Rita, you may remember the bit where she says (something like) "The moment you study something, you kill it". Loving a subject is IMHO the worst reason to study it. I loved philosophy and it took three of the worst, most tedious years of my life to convince me that studying it was not what I should be doing. As an aside, I used to love coding when I was a kid, and now I'm gainfully employed as head coder (lots of experience but no degree-level qualification).
Furthermore, the last sixth of the course is the worst stage, when everyone - no matter what subject or ability - eventually feels this way. It was the same for everybody I knew at post-16 education (that's A-levels to us Brits), and the same for everybody at post-18.
Just buckle down, and look to the end of the course. You've come this far and it's nearly over. Don't stumble at the last hurdle - get those projects in on time and do the best you can do. Think about jobs later. There's always philosophy...
For me, the joy in software development comes from solving new or interesting problems or problems in a new domain, working on a team w/ other talented, insightful people. It's about having my mind engaged in a way -- or in a variety of ways -- that few other of the professions I'd explored provided.
Now, of course not all jobs in the software industry will always have the right combination of interesting problem, quality people and good management, but the longer you work in the industry (and the more practical problem-solving experience you aquire) the more you'll be able to be picky and choose jobs that have at least some of these things -- and it's often possible to be the spark that brings some of the other qualities oneself (for instance, not many Project Managers *want* to fail; if you find yourself working on an interesting problem in an environment that's poorly managed, suggest ways that you think the process could be made more conducive to producing quality work. You'd be surprised how often people pay attention to good ideas).
There are also no end of open source or Free Software projects to get involved w/, many of which are interesting, fun and useful all at the same time.
In any event, don't assume that your experience now necessarily represents what the experience of actually doing software development as a profession will be like. If it turns out after a couple years of working in the software industry isn't all you hoped, then you will have aquired a useful skill and still be in a position as multiple other posters have mentioned to pursue something else.
I always thought I'd go back to school at some point, and now that I'm late 30's, I keep asking myself, do I want to? I probably will, when the boredom here in my cube has me ready to explode. It pays the bills, but it certainly isn't what the field looked like back when I started.
If you're sure that CS is no longer the right direction for you, don't wait to change paths... expertise is what gets you somewhere in most any career, and the way to build it is to start at the bottom; finish your CS, check out grad stuff (if you can afford, big assumption there) or look for jobs in another field where CS would be an asset.
I'd have a personalized plate on my car, but "toxic bachelor" won't fit into 7 letters.
Working with a small team of hardware/software people and acually creating *things*. It's less abstract and more in touch with reality. Working with hardware engineers and techs will get you closer to the nuts and bolts and you may find it more rewarding.
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can't kill the beast.
I felt the same way recently (I graduated in May). The job market is absolutely awful: it's nearly impossible to get an entry-level job at any good technology companies.
However, what gave me some fun was to hack again. I used to do it when I was a teenager. I bought a Dell laptop in my junior year of college, and recently took it apart from top to bottom. There was something like 100 screws in the end (20 of which didn't go back into the machine -- oops), but I was able to rebuild it "from scratch".
That gave me joy. It's an ability that very few people have, and I share with only those people. Friends were like "what are you doing?" when they saw the $3000 laptop in a million pieces, but I was able to get it back together in one night, in the process beefing up the speakers and rerouting some wires to decrease EMI (so I wouldn't hear the touchpad buzzing everytime I touched it).
When you actually enjoy what you're doing, everything else becomes secondary.
You'd have to choose a science for the other way around.
Here I was thinking of different first person shooters this person could try, or even a different genre like the new Civ.
Man, if you only meant video games I could help.
If you've lost interest in CS, what are you interested in? Perhaps you should look for careers in something else. As a new college grad you will have the option to go into almost any career you want. A lot of companies look for people with no experience and train them- not just for computer jobs.
At my school (semi-prestigious college), there was some crazy statistic saying that only 30% of college grads get a degree directly related to their major. I took that to mean "study what you love, you can still get a job". So i studied music theory and composition (at a school dominated by science and business majors). After college, while working a job I knew was just to pay the bills, I took night computer classes. I then landed a job as a web developer and got trained even more. While i was doing that job i decided i liked networks and systems more than development, so i took more night classes and got a new job as a sysadmin- and that company actually paid for the classes.
My point- you're almost done. Finish your CS program and SERIOUSLY consider looking for work in an area that really interests you. You are not locked in to computers even with that degree- and you can still read slashdot all you want.
That sounds much like me. I found programming mind numbing and didn't find the rewards in it that many of my friends did. That is why I went the sysadmin route. Now I have what I like to call the "Gray Area" where I can read /. keep up on current events, and hang out.
And remember college is a bunch of shit for a piece of paper that says you can take that much shit. 90% of it is worthless crap
Don't write in this space.
OK
Hmmmmmmmm. That sounds about right. The advisors at my college are the professors in the department where you major in. That means that our professors are paid to advise students instead of teaching, which is an accurate statement, unfortunately.
I can relate to the submitter in that I was once very bored with programming, and I found myself less and less interested in the work I was doing. I did some great stuff in school, so it was afterwards(cough java cough) that I began losing my mind. If you keep doing the same inane programming tasks over and over, you should start getting bored. It is human nature to aspire for new things. I think that he / she needs to learn that they will rarely if ever do truly cool things in the industry. The options are three things:
1. Get out - If you are really not liking it, and you don't see the initiative to change your own behaviour, then get out of it. It isn't worth getting burned out after a year because you can't stand what you are doing
2. Jump around - Keep searching for jobs until you finally find somethign that you really like. You probably will get bored with that after a while, so then it is time to move on again...
3. Code for fun - If you really like coding like you where when you were tounger, just sit down after work / school and make something that you want to make. I see that coolest little programs coming from people in university. You have the time and the determination, so go wild!
Bye!
Hi there!
/., spent my days lost in UO and counterstrike, not really looking hard for a job.
I know your feeling there bud. When I was at the hight of my career during the tech boom, my salary from my day job and consulting put me into the 6 figure range. Not bad for a 28yro HS dropout who taught himself.
Right before the crash, I was working for one of those high profile dot coms. I started to see the acres of (i'm an ex farm boy we measure in acres) of people sitting in those cramped cubicles under those soul sucking flourescent lights busily tapping away in MS VS6 trying to create a product nobody would ever buy or use, I started to become discouraged, depressed even as I watched co-workers become ever increasingly bitter at the fact that we would never go anywhere in this company. We were like the walking dead, showing up 9 to 5 to a company without any positive direction. I think everybody knew it was a case of the blind leading the blind, so it was inevitable that we would all be losing our jobs soon.
My day came about a week after I bought my first house. I left a perfectly stable job because they had found my resume on monster, called me and coaxed me out of my safe shell with more money. I really laid into my boss, the flow of vulgarities from my mouth was like a mighty river, I did not let up on my manager for about 1/2 hour. The job market has not been kind to me, gone are the days of simply faxing or posting your resume somewhere. You actually have to pound pavement and kiss ass to get a job now.
For the first 3 months I was very gung ho about finding a new job, then as the realization of the screwed economy settled in, I started to get a little depressed and discouraged. My depression and self doubt got so bad I started thinking maybe the layoff was my fault, maybe it was something I did to set it in motion and because of that I was punishing myself daily. I stopped participating in
Then there was the article on how my former employer was going to cut its workforce by %70 on the frontpage of the business section. From the time they had laid me off they must have cut 2000 jobs silenty because the paper reported them as having only 2000 employees, when I was there we had 4000. I felt a little better.
I started to go outside and work on the yard of my new house. I put a hoe in my hand and tore the yard up. I turned part of my yard into a garden. As i'm typing this i'm nibbling on a salad I made with my vegetables. I got into going to my families ranch and plinking hubcaps in the trees. Just for the hell of it I gave the cabin out there a fresh coat of paint. The more I accomplished the better I felt.
That's really the whole point of my post here, it's not so much that the repetetive schoolwork you are doing that is making you dislike CS. It's the lack of accomplishment that is making you want to run away screaming while pulling your hair out. I can fully relate to you on this and unless you start doing things that make you feel like your accomplishing something, you will keep feeling this way.
Screw school, make some time for a project of your own design. Allocate an hour a day to this project. When you complete it you will see what i'm talking about.
I felt the same way in college, that the projects I were doing were pretty boring. So, I coded other things. I got books in DirectX and started writing games, and I learned that I actually did use stuff I learned in these classes in my own programs. It made going to class easier, because I knew that even if I didn't see it right now, someday down the line I will use that knowledge in the most unexpected place.
And sometimes, being able to say "Instead of going to the bars at night, I sat in my dorm room coding" in an interview helps you out to get a good job. Most jobs aren't cutting edge, but you might get lucky. Never lose hope.
However, if you really get burned out on it, you might want to look into getting a second major in the science field. I was working towards getting a Music Composition Minor (never finished it) when I was in college, which probably helped on the burnout factor. I enjoyed going to the CS lab after having to sit through tonal recgonition.
The same thing happened to me when I was going through my Electrical Engineering degree. I really like EE (and CS) topics from the high-level, but when it came down to the mundane details of integration it was just too much. I finished my EE degree (and I suggest you get your degree too, it's important), but after I graduated I went right into technical marketing and I love it. I still get to work on some great technical projects, and I still get to work with the engineers about 30% of the time, but I deal with the product on an industry-wide scale as opposed to hacking up 1/100th of another DLL file.
:).
The world is in need of more good technical marketing people. Everytime you hear stories about "stupid marketroids," it's another reminder of why more technical people need to staff a good marketing department. I'm no marketing expert, and I don't have an MBA (yet), but people like me on the marketing team are necessary to keep the business majors from making some basic technical mistakes. Give it some thought!
(also, as another poster mentioned, go on a trip! Head out to Europe or SE Asia or something. A trip like this should be a requirement for every University and College grad
- j
Well, what was it you liked about it in the first place? Maybe you're not having fun because the language you're using is too low-level and painful. Try a scripting language (Perl, Python, etc.) for some instant gratification. Maybe you're bored by the inane problems in your text books. Real life (as in, a job) often presents more practical and interesting problems, and you may get more satisfaction out of solving a problem that actually needs to be solved. Also, don't believe the rumors about pay. If you turn out to be good at this stuff, you will be paid well.
My CS degree is almost 25 years old now and guess what, things have changed. The PC I'm typing this on has more computing power memory and disk than the mainframe that was here when I arrived.
In that time I set up the first pc's (ibm 3270 pc), lan (token ring using IBM mau's and novell 3), webserver (ncsa with cello browser), firewalls and Internet connection. A lot of stuff that has didn't exist, arrived on the scene, and has evolved.
So, quit looking around you and start looking ahead. Does working with voice command technology sound cool to you? Then go learn about it! Find some stuff to play with and get ahead of the curve! Is programming getting you down? Then bone up on encryption and networking, the essentials of computer security!
Quit fretting about "Oh sh*t, I have to get a job in the real world and my GPA isn't 4.0 like all the business majors," IMHO if it is a true CS degree it shouldn't be 4.0. The best minds out there are those that don't confom to the preconceived notions of how things should be. We don't get anything new or useful out of that type of thinking.
Get your degree and find yourself a cool job. It probably won't make you rich, but I can guarantee that you won't be bored.
-Xanthos
Average Intelligence is a Scary Thing
From your post it seems that you've hit the point where technology for technology sake has become boring. Good. Only now can you become a master software developer. This is not the end of your career... but the beginning of it. Mastery of technology comes with service. Certainly you will always be rewarded with a new technology insight; however, the bulk of your rewards will come from serving other people, as they serve you. Your reward will come when you put a smile on a person's face after saving them that horribly irritating 2 hour process they must do every Monday morning.
The programmer transfers tedious processes from humans to machines. We automate. We make hard or impossible processes feisable. Farmers sell food. Doctors sell health. Lawyers sell order. We sell a very precious gift... time.
So. My advice to you. Now that you are proficient software person, you must move on to a problem domain. You must pick a group of people you will serve. Learn business. Learn how social structures work. Learn about specific problem domains that interest you. Do a few internships. When you go into a job make sure that they know what you are there for -- to help them automate tedious processes. Once you grok your role and help other people to understand your role, you will find that software is indeed a most wonderful occupation.
I've always loved computers and hacking out new programs. I started writing programs in the early 80's, wrote some cool programs in high school (a cache for proDos; an NLQ printer driver for the Imagewriter when NLQ printers were new), and then went to college as an EE.
During college, I still kept writing programs. I wanted to take the graphics course, but found that I had taught myself and implemented most of the stuff. I co-oped during the breaks, and got to write some cool software for a company (I designed a way to extend the capabilities of a piece of hardware way beyond it's original intent), and worked for this company upon graduation.
I got some neat projects; I loved designing the hardware and software. Eventually, though, the good engineers left and I was working overtime to needlessly cover other peoples butts. The only thing that kept me going was my fun side projects... reverse-engineering the garmin gps protocol, more computer graphics.
I started work at a new company, and it was great for a while. I learned a lot, but then got somewhat stuck in a rut. The work turned into just programming dma engines and writing drivers. My side projects kept me going... programming the sega vmu, and I began another (still-secret) really ambitious project (RAP).
I had saved up enough money for a really nice car or a downpayment on a house. But, neither appealed to me anymore. I wanted more...
I had always heard the advice "don't make your hobby your job", but never took it. I had been beginning to worry that maybe I had made a mistake. But, after slaving away at the job, I found it was always fun to work on my side projects, even if it was essentially the same kind of work. What I'm learning is that, for me, the freedom to design is really motivating.
So I took a leave of absence (a sabbatical) and am now squandering my life savings chasing that really ambitious project full-time. I'm having a blast. I moved out of the city, live in a college town, have time to do fun stuff, and still working like heck on my project. I code till late into the night, just like I used to in high school.
For the last two days, I've been trying to figure out how to determine a certain condition. I've been racking my brains, but it's been fun because I know that there is a creative answer and I'll find it. I know it's just me and geometry, and there isn't some half-documented chip or lame buggy software in the way. The challenge is real, and for once, not just fixing or working around other peoples' mistakes.
So, my advice, find out what you love, and do it. If this means some time off, then it's worth it. My college-educated sister cleaned toilets in alaska before deciding on a career. I know when I'm ready for another job, I'll know what I want from it and I'll be a lot pickier.
ps. and don't mistake your job for your love. I've done that too. doh!
Rating: +1, Selfish.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
Alcohol is the cause of and solution to all of life's little problems.
You're only one semester from being done, but my best advice is:
Get an internship 3 semesters ago.
I think it's very important to get an idea of what you'll be doing when you get out of school. The type of programming you're doing now isn't necessarily representative of the type of projects and problems you'll find in the real world. Projects especially may be more rewarding when you're not working in groups that only have people at or below your own skill level. I found that the type of work I was doing and the people I was working with during my internships and the amount that I was able to learn "on the job" made me feel like college might just have been a waste of time.
Now I know better. The CS degree gave me the foundation that I use to solve problems and learn new technologies and I've found that people who didn't get a CS degree (or didn't put in several years of work towards one) just weren't able to think about problems on quite the same level.
So my advice to you requires a time machine, but maybe some other folks in their sophomore-junior year can take it and get summer internships or co-ops in the field. It pays better than McDonald's (I know, I did that too) and it's going to be more useful later in your career (unless you're desperately in need of "character building")
- StaticLimit
This is something that a lot of us are facing these days, I'd expect. For so many years for me, computers and technology were a source of joy in and of themselves, but there really Is only so far you can go with them as a self-contained entity before it all begins to feel fairly broken-recordish. My suggestion would be to change your major, and apply your CS knowledge to your new field of study, if theres anything else that interests you that you can relate your skills to. Computers are, after all, only a tool. I think it interesting that the world (or at least America) is finally hopping somewhat off the 'net bandwagon (has anyone else been screaming about the idiocy of the banner-ad economy since it began? .. i'm guessing i'm not the only one). Good luck to you - finding a career that you enjoy is very important. For the moment given the market today, I'm going to stick with CS .. but should the rug come out from under me, I'll likely bite the bullet, head to school and pursue a career in genetics .. an excellent discipline for a programmer if they enjoy it ;)
I'm a CS geek who switched to philosophy after i found that CS just wasn't doing it for me. I still love computers (and currently work with them) but I don't plan on doing it forever (or at least full-time). If you're good at CS you may be able to work part-time and make nearly as much as those 'other majors' like philosophers/teachers/journalists/historians/etc. So keep your options open. Get that degree in the field you love and use CS as your 'whore job' as I like to call it. If you're like me you'll be surprised how much you like CS when you mix it up with other interests.
Neuroscience is a wide open frontier and we are always looking for sharp computationally-minded people to work on fun, hard projects. It doesn't pay quite as well as working for the man, but it's about as exciting and fulfilling as work can get.
- Go to Grad School.
- Join the Peace Corps or AmeriCorps.
- Become a hermit.
- Join the Army.
- Get a second bachelors degree.
- Hitchhike across europe for a summer.
- Become an intern for a congressman.
- Apply to Business School or Law School.
- Work the fishing boats in Alaska.
- Get a second major in music.
- Write the Great American Novel(tm)
Seriously, if you're coming out of college, you're probably only 21 or 22. You have a whole life in front of you. You're probably not going to do one thing for your entire life, don't worry that being a "great geek" isn't everything it's chalked up to be.This is what my dad said to me when I had a similar situation about 2 years ago:
"If you study business, you can do anything you want."
So I changed my major to CS with IS and I can get my MBA in less than a year once I gobble some experience points up. You'd be surprised: a lot of business courses are really interesting (with the exception of MIS that is, surprise) if you can deal with the all the cute girls and whiny students. Whiny students really just mean less busywork, anyway.
... and you'll never work a day in your life.
Yes, it's becoming a tiresome old cliche that doesn't take into account the complexity of the modern world. For instance, I still love programming and systems analysis/design, but as other writers have astutely summarized here, working in that facility in a corporate environment tends to stifle the enthusiasm and excitement of your career passion. Still, my point is if you're second guessing your choice as you are completing your academic walk, it may be a strategic time to switch to another vocation (or educational pursuit).
If you decide that you are still locked onto a CS life path, then parlay that time you spend on an alternative to transform your CS training into a more fruitful passion. After a sabbatical, you may discover it was just a temporary valley and all that you needed was a short hiatus to regain focus. It happens to all of us.
AZspot
What you might need is a change. In school you have been doing basically the same kind of stuff for a few years now and it has lost it's appeal.
I've been doing software development professionally for 12 years now and find that I get bored after about 3 years of working on the 'same thing'.
Also as mentioned by others try to apply your CS knowledge to other areas that interest you. I know I find developing a database for my own hobby website to be more interesting then maintaning the payroll or customer database at work.
So tough it out and finish your degree. Get yourself a job and see if the change gets you motivated again. If not you can always go back to school after 6-12 months and try something else.
After three+ years away from college I finally discovered what my true passion was: business management. Like CS, it requires a lot of analytical and conceptual thinking, but the difference is that you get to apply this to people, not source code. Are you a social person who works well with others? If so, than maybe you should consider spending an extra year or two in school and pickup a second BS in Management. It can only help you in the long run, and gives you a lot more flexablility when you are marketing yourself.
Now is a good time to be in college, so take advantage of the position you are in. Going back after working can be pretty difficult for a lot of people. Best of luck!
--G Barr
Sapere Aude - Homer
Seems like you are in an engineering-centric program. Get out if it and find a more theoretical program. It's just me, but I find engineering classes very boring. Sheesh, how many filters does one need to program?
Right now I'm in my last semester (more like last class, since I'm only taking one) of undergrad. My grades certainly aren't what they used to be, but I have a halfways decent job. (luckily)
:-), it's nice to do something that has some sort of impact.
:-)
Here's what I've been finding out over the past few years: I'm sick of school. My job is pretty good though, while I'm not doing anything ground-breaking (except for maybe finding bugs in a 5 year old file-handler for a 15 year old database system.
The best advice I can give you is to get the degree. I know it sucks, but bear it out -- you'll need one. If you're REALLY burned out on CS, get a degree in something else. It may not get your foot in many doors, but it certainly keeps your resume out of the circular file for a few more seconds.
This may be somewhat roundabout, but sometimes you just have to change directions to find the love again, you know? Start doing something completely unrelated.
I'd wager that most of the readers (and responders) are full-time geeks. Not everyone's cut out to do it though -- you might be one of those people. Not that either one is necessarily a bad thing, but it sounds like you need a break more than anything else.
Save up for spring break, go down to Florida, get drunk, sleep with some hot babes and/or hunks, and relax.
I'm rambling here, but I hope you get my drift. Maybe you need a break, or a different focus, or to start/join a project to get some perspective. Maybe you aren't cut out to be a professional geek, but you might be able to be one at home while you advance through some other career.
The most important thing is to find something (or some balance of somethings, not many people have the single-minded devotion to be hardcore in their baliwick of choice 24/7) that makes you happy.
Am I making any sense?
Pax, Ardax
I'm in exactly the same position. I am graduating in the spring with my CS degree. This year has been hell. Not only are several of my classes incredibly boring and unapplicable, but I am getting flooded with more work than I can keep up with. I am beginning to tire of some of the people in my classes, and I just don't have the motivation to do the work any more. But, one thought keeps me going. One simple little thought lets me dismiss the arrogant rantings of my classmates and the ever-present "fix this seg fault" assigments: All I need is that piece of paper.
I have been fortunate enough to get a wide variety of real world expirience. The most important thing I have learned is that once you get out of school, you will use only about 5% of what you learned. Most of the material covered in classes is next to useless. But that diploma, that single piece of paper that represents 4 years of utterly pointless work will open up many more opportunities and (at least for me) allow the things that make computers fun become important again. Stick with it, get the paper, and good luck. Remember there are thousands of us in the same position...
I was a CS major, and have been doing Computer support (now a Helpdesk Admin) since I was 18 (now 23). I really got burnt out of CS, probably due to working in it. SO I changed majors after my freshman year, and am majoring in Electrical Eng. with a Minor in solid state physics. Why? because it's more difficult than CS, something I don't already know, and there are no more dumb business majors in my classes... YEAH!!!
The only downfall is you have to have the IQ to grind away at EE, or the fortitude...
I belive now that all that's needed for a good cs job is 1.experience and 2. a degree in something.
brian.weatherhead@wgint.com
There's no dishonor in disliking CS. I went from an A to a C in one semester, and concluded that CS is riddled with boring subtopics, and boring teachers :-). I eventually went back to A's again when I did theory, but by then I had settled on a Math major.
CS, unfortunately, seems to content itself with torturing students with ever-more-boring programming tasks, while neglecting the higher-level issues that make the field interesting. Most of us would agree that we can get that kind of training on the job, while being paid to do so, instead of paying other people to make us do busywork.
Much of CS is about where auto mechanics was 100 years ago, when cars were "high tech". I suspect that many engineering students at that time ended up with a high-priced education in how to change a tire.
---- "If we have to go on with these damned quantum jumps, then I'm sorry that I ever got involved" - Erwin Schrodinger
I stopped pursuing a CIS/MIS degree and left school early to work in development/administration with a company that loves open source software. Quite naturally, I thought I would love working here. It's been a ride and a half, and I have learned a few major lessons while here--one of them being: There is a huge difference between programming/administration/(insert any technology-related field here) for a living, and doing it as a hobby. I love what I do when I get home. I hack, manage, code, install, and build. But when I have to do it at work, on the order of someone who is over me, it is a whole different ball game.
Here is what I did when I got fed up with the junk that passes for computing these days. Get the Hercules IBM 360/370 emulator from here, VM/370 from here or MVS from here and go back to the days of using a real computer!
I was at school. I spent a 100 hours a week on my linux box or two every week. I loved it. I was having the time of my life. I loved computers. Sometime about a year after getting a job in the CS field I realized I wasn't havnig fun any more. So I started adventuring to hobbies I once had. A year after I hated my job, I'm having the time of my life again. I goto work 5 days a week. I work over 40 hours a week, but under 50. I take my vacation now instead of watching it go away at the end of the year. I visit friends. I travel a little. I backpack. I read non-tech books. Don't get me wrong I still have a vast computer network at home, but it doesn't take over my life. At work (Unix SA) I live by the fact that consistancy is the spice of life. At home I live by the fact that variety is the spice of life. Get away from the computer!
Get used to it kid.
If you think your tasks are inane now - wait until you (being the new kid and worthless for anything else) get to perform maintenence on a 7 year old, poorly documented, uncommented code base.
Don't like the sound of that? Well, there is always the military....
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
30% of college grads get a degree directly related to their major
i meant "30% of college grads get a job directly related to their major" (duh)
1)What attracted you to CS in the first place
2)What could you do, either on the side, or within the confines of your study, that would recreate that attraction?
3)Would that pre-defined attraction pay? Or, to put it differently would someone be willing to pay for the results of said attraction?
4)If not, is there a way to restructure my work schedule to cultivate pre-defined attraction? (hobby, non-profit work, etc)
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.
...go to work for...
(1) a small company where you can strut your stuff without being pigeon-holed like you would at a giant company. You should be able to work on a greater diversity of things this way.
(2) You should also shoot for a company that has its act together as far as engineering process or discipline. There are *some* places that aren't run by PHBs.
(3) Another interest lifter is getting in on the ground floor of a new project (or even company) such that you might be able to be involved in some architecture and design efforts, maybe even requirements or process definition.
(4) Check into cool embedded software realms such as telecom, medical, or military work. There's **so** much more out there than desktop and server software.
I've been fortunate to have jobs meeting some of these criteria since graduating "several" years ago with a Bachellor's in CS. The diveristy of work I've enjoyed, from device drivers to XML databases to packet queueing software, has kept me from being bored.
Also, try to build up a network of people you like working with. Few things make a better work environment than people you respect professionally and like personally.
Actually, it ain't that bad Cliff. Just make sure you find a good job.
A rewarding job is paramount in staying happy with what you do. It isn't the CS part, it's what you're doing day in and day out. Honestly, working somewhere that challenges you and produces a fine product will be Much much more fulfilling than the off-by-one errors that you are finding now.
Good luck.
Wait until you start working. Then the real sucking begins.
This
I still like what I'm doing, even though it's not Game programming :). If I would have had a 3.5 I would have been estatic in school. But I followed the Cookie Monster Philosophy: "C is for Cookie, that's good enough for me!"
But somehow I pulled a miracle out of my ass, got a job with a "Globably known" (unknown in the US) corporation as a programmer/analyst writing programs based off a crappy german (no offense to Germans...but SAP sucks) ERP.
I also work close to home, have a 20 minute commute, and work with people I like.
For me life is good, actually better than it was in college.
Sean D.
"When you graduate from college, no one will care
if you got an A or an F in 7th grade English"
-- Doug Sanders...(friend's brother)
"Hmm. I am to metaphor cheese as metaphor cheese is to transitive verb crackers!"
I don't think any computer scientist loves finding that infamous off-by-one bug in their program. However, your problem sounds like its one of reduced interest/motivation. Maybe you should try finding a particular area of CS that piques your interest... For myself, I found that I love embedded programming and making computer-enabled devices that interact with the outside world. Try doing some soul-searching to find your niche in this field. If you find it, then it will make everything else that comes with it tolerable.
What to DOOOOO???? Get a life you snivelling whining idiot.... Whaaaaaa..... Hey kidoo if all your worryinag about is that "CS isn't Fun anymore... whaa".. then I suggest reading the local paper.. hmm try the New York Times.. Metro Section..... Then get off your ass and make this world a better place........ Your problem is in your head.. get off it and do something.......
Many people have the misconception that a CS program is about learning programming/networking/admin skills for the workforce. Nope. CS is preparation for getting a master's degree in CS, which is preparation for getting a doctorate in CS, which is prerequisite for working in academia and at the cutting edge of research involving electronic computers and their intersection with mathematics and philosophy.
A CS degree is a great way to get a well-rounded background, perhaps a stint at tech school in parallel with the rest of your CS work would be useful. Or some certification courses in areas you are interested in; those will help your job prospects and take focus off the raw theory into the realm of (barely) practical use.
This is even more true now that HR departments are staffed mostly by people who are clueless about the breadth of a CS education. Without certifications they won't even listen to you, even with 10+ years of experience using the exact technologies they want. It's a cultural shift in the business, one likely to never go away; the people hiring can't imagine anyone having the broad background and intelligence to learn things without taking a certification or tech school program in it, so they assume you're lying when you say "10+ years of experience" and see no such educational path.
Seems that anything that is called work is in fact not fun. if it were they would call it something else like "fun" or "sport" or "sex". Sorry. I've worked in this industry as a contractor since day one. The only thing that has kept me from sucking on a tialpipe is changing jobs often enough to keep the challenge fresh. Two things about this career are interesting to me: learning new things; meeting new people. After I have been in one place for about 9 months I have learned the application space, discovered the legacy of bad code that the management / peers are too proud of to allow you to change, and become irritated by the ignorance and downright bullheadedness of my managers, peers, and their managers and customers. This approach works well when the market is good and very poorly when the market is bad. Today I have two kids to support and a wife used to a good salary to spend. sooooo I've been working the same job for way too long (1.5 years) and I can't stand it. But I don't think I'd like driving a truck any better.
You pick something to do - you do it - you collect your pay on Friday. That's the big bad world where the adults work.
I always thought it would be really cool to do something like that. Especially if you could get a computer science class going, or an after school club. There are lots of free tools that you can use to create really great lab projects. (Even Microsoft has free development packages - check out the development environment they provide for FREE for WindowsCE. It even comes with neat emulators.)
So, you could get a chance to be THE COOL TEACHER and you could really paint a vision for kids of their own futures that they might not otherwise get. And, you would get some time to wind down and think about what you really want to do for your life.
I was in there in '90. My inspiration was the first few lines of Clifford Stoll's "Cuckoo's Egg"
it went something like
"computer people call me an astronomy genius and astronomers call me a computer genius"
basically, find something else you like, merge the two and impress everyone. Don't try to change CS..a rock is a rock and a tree is a tree and you can't make a rock into a tree.
Divide and conquer!
Great, slashdot is now taking the place of college counselors. Gee man, get a life, stop your whining, and someone with brains start checking the stories. This sure as hell isn't "stuff that matters".
----- LoboSoft specializes in Digital Language Lab
"but after you've done it for a few years, it's all the same"?
The computer industry makes huge leaps in no time. New tools and new technologies develop constantly. Do you hear that ringing beside you? It's a cell phone with an integrated PDA. See that black rectangle on the desktop? It's a laptop computer with a wireless network connection. These aren't just hardware... they've got software inside and somebody wrote it.
Not impressed by the newest gadgets? Ok, how about instant messaging? Internet telephony? StarCraft and Monsters Inc. for God's sake! Do you think Monsters Inc. could have been made 10 years ago?
And you think it's all the same? Open your eyes, look at all the new stuff you can do, and try to keep up.
SQUEAK, the Death of Rats explained.
I was in school for Mechanical Engineering. I loved finding out how things worked and I still enjoy the theory, but the curriculum completely turned me off to the subject. By the end I really couldn't stand it.
Meanwhile I was getting jobs as a sys admin for different university departments. I finished my degree and got a job teaching Unix. With the downturn of the economy, not many companies are training people. So now I'm looking for a Unix job with year old skills and the only thing I have to fall back on I don't like.
What I would do in your situation... stay in school learning different things until the economy gets better. Check out other BS degrees or go for an MBA. It's easy to stay in school, but a lot harder to go back after you've got new debts to pay.
A lot of people read sites like this and imagine taking part in this incredible revolution of new technology, or developing the next great video game. In truth, more than 95% of programming, in the professional world, involves sitting behind a desk and interfacing databases with the worlds most boring programs. It's easy to see why people get discouraged. It's not fun. It's not exciting. It's a job, like any other.
Though this isn't good for everyone, you could always consider teaching CS. There is a large demand for CS teachers (especially in high schools), and not many out there are very good at it. If you know the stuff, have an interest in it, and have some ideas on how to teach it better, it might be a good idea to try it. Several universities have programs where if you already have a 4 year degree, they can tack on a masters in teaching with only one more year of school time.
Of course, don't do it for the money. Teaching usually doesn't pay that well (except you get the summers off. That's kinda nice.)
Not really, I don't see much if anything that is different from a java app server. I have worked in both environments and don't see much of a different other than the fact that .Net is tied to Windows.
.Net is multiple language support in the runtime out of the box.
.Net is a very good carier move since MS won the antitruest case.
The main benifit of
Although I do agree with you that
By that I mean that I enjoy programming for a few years, change to something else for a few, then find I have a new ferver for programming to send me back into that for another few years.
Jobs are nothing like school. Finish your degree, get a job, and try a few companies. (They vary wildly.) If you still hate it, find a company that lets you change focus. There are plenty.
Finish your degree ! When a future employer looks at your background, he will see somebody who finishes what he starts.... as opposed to somebody who loses interest and drops out. (Which guy would you hire ?)
The mental skills that brought you this far in CS will serve you well in any job you find interesting.
--Good luck
I am a grad student in a one year program for computer science at a great c.s. school in NY State. I know plenty of students who feel the exact same way as you do. I am one of them!
Computer Science more than most other engineering degrees can really wear down one's enthusiasim, because you are practically tied to a computer for 3.5 years. Our projects are not really ever finished. Something can always be done better. There is always room for improvement. Worst of all teachers often grade based on which group was implemented best, which means spending a Friday night in lab would actually help you out. Walking home at 4am on a Saturday morning ain't that much fun either.
So you want to quit?! That aint the answer. Trust me, I have almost packed my bags twice!
Finish your degree! Then take a Summer to enjoy life. Do something you always wanted to do, but didn't have time for. (ie I plan to drive across the country) Then get a job, and see what you think of it. If you hate it. Maybe you should find something else to do.
I would not follow the advice of hopping into grad school. That is not where someone goes who is tired of C.S. you will end up jumping off a bridge if you do that.
Good luck, and remember that plenty of c.s. students feel the same way as you. (or at least one does . . . me!)
Of course you're bored, you're doing boring stuff. Pick a project you find interesting, or start one of your own, and start hacking. Whenever I get tired of the same old stuff, I write an NPC generator for whatever table-top RPG I'm into at the moment. Soon enough I'll have to find something else to fill that need, but hopefully by then I'll be a good enough programmer to actually contribute something to the community.
Of course, when I first read the title I thought you were talking about Counter-Strike, and my answer was going to be Diablo2...
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
I burned out in my junior year of college (Penn State -- Computer Science major). I toughed it out, swearing that I'd never get a programming job once I graduated.
Well, almost three years later, I'm a developer, and I love it. I've loved it ever since I stopped writing linked lists and solving the 8 queens problem in Prolog.
Computer science in college sucked. Programming for real is cool. I get to work with new technologies all the time and work on new projects every few months. Sure, there're things that suck, like maintainence work and jerk managers, but you have that anywhere. And I've found that the good parts of the jobs usually far outweigh the bad parts.
As for pay, I started out very low on the salary scale (at the time, my high-school teacher girlfriend, also fresh out of college, was making the same as me), but things are much better now. I think I'm making about 2.5 times what I started at, so your career will go places quickly. Yeah, things are looking a little down these days, but it can't last forever.
I know a lot of people are weighing in on this one, but I was in exactly the same situation as you, and now I'm doing very well in a job that I like a lot. Hopefully things work out just as well for you!
John Hofmann
go work at McDonalds. Please don't enter the CS field...we don't need more talentless/passionless people...I'm surronded by them all on sides.
And whatever you, don't get into it for the money. You would make more as an investment banker!!
If religion were a science, standardized testing for the existance of a god would instantly demonstrate no gods (or other supernatural forces) exist.
So, religion, to continue to exist, would have to propose that God deliberately hides whenever we look, and that would make religion look very dopey.
Oh, wait a minute.
Nevermind.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
I, too, echo the sentiments of this Ask Slashdot. I am also in a similar position about to graduate. However, my problem is not with coding per se, or even management.
My two big issues with the industry revolve around the work environment and the attitude of those already in industry. First, I think the work environment for software projects is downright terrible. Most companies have the ubiquitous dimly lit cubicle, and they stick their employees in them like sheep in a pen, or bats in a cave. I've spent weeks without conversing with anyone at work, and that doesn't suit me very well at all. I don't understand how an engineer is supposed to be world class (see http://www.eec.psu.edu/lc/wce.htm for a description of what my university is try to do) if they spent their entire life devoid of all interaction with human beings. Second, I think more programmers should consider team programming or pair programming. I think the engineer process needs to be fun (it can't hurt), and I think that could help attract some different people to the industry. Programming with other people is a refreshing idea, and since we are human beings, the social interaction is generally a good thing. In short, I enjoy the idea of design and creation and that's why I wanted to be an engineer. However, it seems most companies treat these bright people as machines and robots, expecting people to forsake their humanity so they can sit alone in tiny box for years and years programming their way to who knows what. I think it's time people did something about it. Otherwise I am beginning to think maybe my first job in a movie theater was perhaps the most satifying one of all.
What do you expect - a new toy every week like when you were little? You are likely to be bored with whatever you do in life; let me tell you a little secret: intelligent people (which I'll assume based on the fact that you are in college and are obtaining a degree in something of above average difficulty) have a hard time NOT staying bored. Haven't you noticed that life itself seems monotonous at times (all the time)?
A friend signed up with the Air Force and spent 2 years in Alice Springs, Australia, monitoring seismic data -- That and tearing around the bush on dirt bikes and generally having a pretty cool time. He spent the rest of his tour between Colorado Springs and whatever the AF base is near Kennedy Space Center in Florida. For the privilege of his time he got more money for school and some VA benefits. Pretty nice how that can work out.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Rolling in the leaves and sin and ecstasy will take your mind off all your other problems, and the resulting emotional cross-currents will create new ones that will absorb much of your attention. Yessirree, a mad, passionate affair right about now is guaranteed to give you a new lease on life, take up all your spare time, fill your head with new ideas and add new complications to your existence. You'll still be dragging yourself to class all right, but only because you'll be so worn out from rockin' the night before. You'e a senior now, for crying out loud, you should be at the top of the social pecking order. Try to hook up with senior girls; the same ones who wouldn't spit on you when you were both freshmen may be a lot friendlier now that they've been upstaged by new waves of younger, cuter freshmen.
Stick your head outside the computer lab. English lit. and anthropology majors are a good bet. They spend their whole academic careers focusing on stuff like "Psychosexual imagery in the religious poems of Robert Herrick" and "mating rituals in Samoa." This may be your last sojourn among thousands of unattached young ladies in a carefree, party-centric college environment. Gather ye rosebuds while ye may. (And if you knock one of them up, boy, will you ever have a motivation to get a job and start making money.)
Do what I did. Take your four years of IT experience (as a computer tech workstudy in college) and become a contractor. Use your CS courses to code projects in your spare time, as a hobby, and get paid for helping corporate users fix their computers. When the job markets picks up again, you can use your degree and 'hobby projects' to help you get a job... if you haven't found something else you'd rather do.
A second Bachelor's is a lot of work. It's easier (and it pays more) to go and get a Master's degree in another subject. With a Bachelor's in CS most Master degree programs would take you... you'd need to take a few extra background classes, but it's still less than the classes for another BS.
I've got to BS degrees and an MS. My MS got me my job... a second BS isn't worth much more than a minor in another subject.
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
Yes there is beaurocracy and momentum, but the company is so large, there are incredible opportunities if you are qualified.
Blar.
Very good advice, but I'd like to add that one shouldn't just look for any coop or internship. Find something interesting.
I did a coop for a Department of Defense contracter. Writing code for sonar/radar targetting systems is a lot more satisfying then writing yet another web backend (e.g.: contrast "Congratulations - you've just completeled your first succesful web transaction" with "Congratulations - you've just detected, identified, and tracked your very first Russian Tango.")
All editorial writers ever do is come down from the hill after the battle is over and shoot the wounded.
The same thing happend to me when I was in school. What helped me was in my free time I would work on my own projects and find that area of cs that really interested me and keep moving to new challenges.
When I was getting my CS degree, I was quite bored in almost every class too. But it was because of the classes, not because I had lost interest in programming. And over the years if I've felt that I was losing interest or getting bored, it meant that I needed to change my focus, reorient what I was doing at my job; I've only had to actually change jobs once for that reason, but if that's what it takes...
Or I'll find a small project to work on outside my job, just for myself, which will engage my curiosity again by learning something new.
What I do agree with from other comments is that having other interests is really important. Naturally, if your life is solely devoted to coding, then you'd damn well better love it. And even then you'll be lucky not to burn out.
Yes, there is the possibility that CS has turned out to be something you should consider a secondary skill, instead of your focus. Just don't give it up without really examining what's causing your current lack of interest.
Then you'll definitely appreciate the job, the mental challenges, and the pay it provides.
"The happy life is thought to be one of excellence. Now, an excellent life requires exertion and does not consist in amusement. If happiness is activity in accordance with excellence; it is reasonable that it should be the highest excellence, and this will be that of the best thing in us." --Aristotl, Nichomachean Ethics
We give advice, but we cannot give the wisdom to profit by it. -- La Rochefoucauld
Benefits:
I know the feeling. I enjoyed programming and figuring out technical problems, but once I got out in the "real world" (whatever that means), it's not as much fun when you have to think about budgets and standards and coworkers and politics and regulations and the law and ridiculous customers. But most of all, it's just the sheer enormity of a project.
My first job involved tweaking the GUI for performance on an embedded application on the network management module in a huge SONET network. That means I got a teeny-tiny piece of something huge that I knew next to nothing about. Sure I knew how to figure out the coordinates of the icons for network nodes, but how the communication took place and how the network worked was something I knew nothing about.
So why code? You get to know one small piece of the project very well, but that is ridiculous.
Try Product Management: the design of a project requires more technical skills than the implementation and especially the testing. I talk to cusomters, draft requirements, then assist the project leads in the high-level design. Then the developers go off and design the nitty-gritty details and code and test.
Try Sales Engineering: you get to work with customers and figure out how your companies products can help them out. Assisting on things before and after the sale still helps you keep your technical edge, and many times the customers are just as smart as you are.
Hell, try Product Support: help desk in a developer house (like Metrowerks) or a traveling Support Engineer in a telecom company (like Cisco) will keep you away from silly "Where is the Enter Key" questions. You work with other developers and engineers who are just as sharp as you are, only you have more focused knowledge on the tools they are working with.
So don't code! With a CS degree, there are plenty of other options. Look for those and you won't be turned away for not having the right skills.
I understand where the submitter is coming from; when I was about to graduate I felt the same disinterest in CS, mainly due to burn-out. Two years after graduation, I'm working in computer graphics, and it's tons of fun. It's a field where you get paid for writing programs to make pretty pictures, and there's a lot of basic research involved. Having done database work and graphics work, I definately have to say that you can avoid 90% of the boring stuff by choosing graphics. I don't know anyone in graphics who isn't having a blast, while some of my friends who aren't so lucky are quite unhappy with various other areas of CS.
As a bonus, you get to go to SIGGRAPH, which has to be the most fun conference in the universe.
I use beer as a coping mechanism for burnout. It sounds like a cliche, but it really does work. Hell on the liver, but I can get a transplant.
Take some time off after graduation (since you'd be insane to drop it at this point!) and do something completely different for 2-3 weeks. Chances are you'll feel much better about CS than you do right now.
Just eat your soma and get back to work.
its the great demotivator. i took too many drugs at university and scraped through with a dedicidedly average grade.
I didn't have too many problems getting through school, but I will encourage you to stick it out and try working for a while afterward. School and work are completely different environments. Here's some points to consider:
Not all jobs are mindless, boring, and riddled with bad middle management. CS people in the real world aren't doing the same things as CS people in academia. They apply what they know to widely varying domains of problems. Look for a job in an intersting domain, and check it out.
If you have a liking for aerospace, look at defense contracting companies, or satellite imaging companies. Lots of potential for interesting work there! Some people have a knack for telecom and working with low level hardware. If you've got a background in other sciences, there's a wealth of possibilities there... biotech, computational chemistry, genome work, all of these are highly dependant on specialized software.
Avoid things like "Enterprise Application Integration" unless you really are in to middleware and writing glue code. Some people like this, but I find it gets very repetitious and boring quickly.
If you don't know what you want to work with, a consulting company can get you exposure to a lot of domains and technologies. But they can also wear you down with mind numbing projects that you don't care about.
I guess my big point is that academic projects bear little relation to projects in the real world. It's completely different. Beyond your basic skills, and knowledge of design/development process, everything you learn at a job will be new. And very little of it falls into that "grading bucket" where someone looks at it once and puts it in a filing cabinet.
Right now, you should just look at school as a stepping stone... something to be passed through on the way to a more interesting application of what you've learned.
I like to say the same for management. A good boss can make doing stock at 2am seem like fun.
If you know you hate doing repetative and unrewarding homework and labs, become a teacher and don't do the same to your students. If you think your major's unchallenging, challenge your students.
School could be a lot more fun for a lot more people if we got proactive about it.
***JUMP PAD ACTIVATION INITIATION START***
***TRANSPORT WHEN READY***
I had the same thing-- I even dropped out I got in such a funk over the stuff they taught us in CS-- There was no opportunity for applying the knowledge. Guess what? It gets better. You'll graduate, get a job and the real world solution set will be so different you'll take it as a challenge and the fun comes back PLUS you'll have the analytical skills to find the minute bugs and evaluate things in a large scale.
When you get out into 'the real world' you'll have to choose the company you want to work for. Do you have other interests? Econ, Geology, Stats? You can always apply for a job in another field you're interested in. There's always software to be written for other fields... You can also apply to be a research assistant to professors.
Also remember that the coding you do out here is usually much more complex than the projects you get in CS class. Implementing a three-tier image management database system is much more complex and challenging than writing a tic-tac-toe program (ah, yes. CSci 3317).
If you get into software architecture, you can spend lots of more time drawing pictures and designing systems than coding.
How about UI design and usability? Definitely a field I wish was paid more attention to.
What is your emphasis? OS? Networking? Databases? Microprocessor Design? Finding a niche you like always helps.
Did you take any internships while in school? I found that they really helped my career direction (in figuring out what I did NOT want to do). Plus internships give you lots of practical experience that isn't available in school.
I am working on my PhD in Physics and I feel the same way as you. I look at CS and EE in envy. I say to myself,"If I had to do it over again,..." As with all interests, you need to take a break. I have read some suggestions from other people, telling you that you might want to go to grad school. I suggest taking time off. I moved to Austria out of the blue after I got my BS and after two years of hanging out, working under the table in Vienna I was itching to come back. I learned a new language and culture and had a great time. But alas I am three years into my PhD and I feel as though I need to take another break.
My point is that you are coming up on a natural point to take a break and do a 180. I say do it.
Censorship rests on the child's delusion that "If I shut my eyes so I can't see it, it isn't there".
Work can get boring. That's why over the summer I work on a personal project. Sometimes a new technology that looks interesting just for kicks, sometimes even an idea from work that was shot down by management.
I both work and go to grad school. I find this keeps them both interesting too. It's exciting when you can apply grad tech to a project in development.
In case you're interested, I fell in love with OS X and Java. OS X has a wonderful programming environment called Cocoa, and my personal project is to better learn the Java API through writing apps. Find a cool technology and fall in love with programming again!
Lies about crimes
If you're burned out in your mid to late 20s, I think you people need to find new jobs.
It doesn't matter whether it's with a different comany doing something similar, or whether you're doing something different altogether.
While, yes, work sucks sometimes -- it shouldn't suck all the time. It's just not healthy, especially at such a young age. How do you think you'll feel when you're 40? Then you'll hate your job, think you've wasted your life, that you're immobilized because you have to care for the wife/husband and kids, and resent THEM for YOUR lack of sac. I've seen it -- and it's not pretty.
We certainly weren't given these lives and bodies to make our souls miserable!
Pax, Ardax
Why not hack for fun on one of the Linux projects underway. When you leave your boring job at the end of the day with money to live on, hack for fun to unwind after work!! It's an alternative to bring the fun back.
-->If Linux was written by Bill Gates & Co. - no one would want to switch !!
What a great time!
Now, I'll admit, I didn't get a CS degree. No, Anthropolgy major with CS minor for me, thank you. Of course, I had figured out in my sophmore year that Physics just wasn't going to pan out for me. Maybe all students should change majors after the first year or two. I dunno
This sounds a lot like what we called Finalist or Final Year Blues.
The pressure of the final year is on, you seem to just be doing more of the same, but under more pressure, the pressure not to 'waste 3 years'. You're working harder, playing softer.
Different people react differently to the pressure of their final year, some get the blues, some get bored, some buckle, however most people don't. Most make it, you can, you might want to consider talking to a college councillor.
The key is to recognize that this is pressure, dealing with real world pressure is probably one of the key lessons of your final year. Take a little time for your self, to make fun again.
Take excercise, Take the piss, Design stupid t-shirts, scream and shout, screw, don't bottle it, don't quit.
DO find something that works for YOU to ease the pressure.
>>My high ratings were in computers(big surprise), electronics, and archaeology.
I came from archaeology into computers, by way of dealing with fairly large databases, GIS, UNIX scripting/programming, SWARM simulation and agent-based modeling. Interviews were a pain in the arse because all the CS guys were like "Archaeology?".
Even still it is a lot easier to get job doing anything with computers than getting paid to do archaeology. Something on the order of 100-1. Oh and try getting a job in archaeology that pays more than 50K - you have to have a PhD, have published at least 30 articles and have run 3-5 five year projects. And then you are competing with 50 other people with the exact same qualifications (and probably 20 with better and 100 with lesser) for the 1 job that exists within a 1000 mile radius.
My advice? Forget archaeology unless you like moving every 6 months, living like a pariah with more tons more education than your local 7-11 manager but making less money, and being concerned about layoffs twice to three times a year. Still running around in the desert seems appealing after sitting in this office for the last 3 years.
I forget...are we at war with Eurasia or East Asia?
Classes can get you down because the end result is usually lame. The way to get around boredom if you like programming is to find an interesting project. I've worked in the Air traffic control industry and I'm writing games in my spare time to keep my hand in something that I enjoy writing. My daily job is boring as hell, but I still love programming because I keep myself doing interesting things with it. CS isn't boring, just some of the projects are ...
First of all I think youre smart enough to finish up your degree. After my last full semester I worked at a networking company with good pay but boring drab days. Knowing the economy was the way it was I kept applying for other IT related jobs anyway. I got some offers and took a leap of faith. It became the best decision I ever made. I am now working at a great company doing something that I truly believe in. I can directly see my efforts effects and have a great time all day. A dream? No. You MUST be willing to take chances and risks. Everyone thought I was crazy for switching jobs with a great salary during these times. But stick to your guns. The key is to believe in what youre doing. Only then will what you consider mundane now be exciting later. Good luck!
Eddy.WriteLinux.Com
someone may have alreadt said this.
but i went through a similar phase about a year ago. I just had to quit. there was no point in coding, creating, breaking or anything. with the time i took off, i did other things completely not related to cs, and when i came back, i was completely refreshed. i have now started several personal projects, which also helps, and i have so many going that when one gets boring, i change to another one. this keeps me from getting stale, but also keeps me from getting anything done in a timly fashon. doing stuff out of books is lame, but thats the only way overpaid teachers know how to do their job. do your own stuff, solve your own interesting problems, and keep it to be what you like. real life will be just like school (boring code), but its all you can hope for.
If you're always doing what other people want, you'll lose interest and the whole experience becomes a mix of drudgery and frustration. You need to take some time following a few rabbit trails of your own interests:
Just keep in mind that it's not the "CS" trade that has you bummed... it's the fact that you haven't had time to do it just for the fun of it lately.
A carpenter can put up framing for houses for a living but he doesn't loathe his tools when he gets home. He might even pick them up to make some patio furniture, a bookcase or something for himself now and then, and his professional skill will show in the quality of his casual project. And the unrelated projects may lead him to find or invent techniques that will enhance his work performance as well.
Same with us, only more. Because CS deals so much with information we can find correlations between the skills we know and nearly everything! Lots of people have what seem to be ultra-low-tech hobbies and then they end up writing software to help out. (I haven't seen any flint-knappers' applications yet though.)
You know what to do.
...like Computer Engineering. But only if you can "hack" it.
~ now you know
Hi,
Currently, I work in an ivy league university. Smack dab in the middle of an Engineering and Applied Sciences department.
There is so much research and development going on at the moment, that I'd suggest you continue into a Masters or PhD program. You'll be assured of working with some top-notch players in the field.
And, you'll get exposure to some very exciting
state of the art technology. Sure, it may be slow and mundane at times, but the payoff is seeing your research published and reviewed by your peers. Besides, you may discover something that only a few years ago was seen as an improbability.
Plus, if you go far enough into the advanced degree program you may realize that you have an affinity for teaching others. Something that many
Masters and PhD students end up doing while continuing their education.
Just remember, it's never too late to start over or begin!
Later on,
Casey
Find an activity that can give you space from the pressure of your classes. Then come back to the class feeling like you really took a break. It is easy to get burned out if you don't rest, even if it is something you truly love. I think with any job you can get pretty tired of it. CS can seem an awful lot like a job and not so much like learning, at least not in the way that you learn history.
There are many things one can enjoy and many jobs. The reason you get paid is because you wouldn't do the job the same if it were a hobby.
I was where you are when i was at the end of my junior year. I had an easy out, which was a couple other majors (which probably actually contributed to the stress problem). I didn't do much with computers at all after I dropped CS. Sometimes I wish I had stayed with it. Now I find I miss it and am having to study up on my own time in addition to having a less than sparkling job.
you probably shouldn't have read this.
quit being a puss. finish your degree and get a job, or don't finish your degree and get a job anyway. if you're not already independently wealthy, you'll have to do something to make money. if you use the money properly - make it work for you - you won't have to work for someone else your whole life. "Life is a shit sandwich, and every day you have to take another bite. However, if you make more bread, you'll have to eat (relatively) less shit." -- 2names
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
Don't let either a self-destructively cynical worldview or a fear of success/failure let you drop what you've done so far.
FINISH. No if's / and's / nand's / xor's or 'well...I don't know man...the world is going to shit anyways so I might as well just blah blah blah...'s about it. Tell yourself whatever lies it takes to finish up your degree. Just do it. Trust us on this one!
You never have to touch another computer again for the rest of your life if you don't want to, but a degree - in ANYTHING - shows that, to some substantial degree, you can get your work done and see a difficult job through to the end. THIS is what employers of all kinds really like, and will also give you the self-assurance you will need if you choose to go it on your own and start a business or something.
Bottom line:
Shut the fsck up and do your damn homework.
; )
**>>BELCH
you forget the CS degree, which is largely useless unless you want to do research. you work for several years doing systems programming and admin, switching jobs every year or so to work on new problems, gradually working on more and more complex systems. then you join a startup, make enough money to retire at 30, and switch to writing GPL'ed software at home, on your own time, working in any area that seems like fun to you. no management, no BS, no timetables, just problems you want to work on, on a schedule that you want to work to. i leave dealing with the decline of your net worth following your retirement as an exercise for the reader.
This is exactly the way I was thinking this morning - I have tons of friends who are all doing productive and artistic endeavours, and here I am, writing a bullshit source-to-source transformation program that is almost theoretically interesting, but that nobody will ever use. I was pretty depressed that I have no aesthetic sense and I couldn't create art or anything even if I tried.
But then I was sitting in my Theory of Computation Lecture - we'd just covered the P and NP sets, and we were now talking about space complexity. Sipser puts the explanation of the MORPH DFA problem up on the board, and explains why it's in NPSPACE, and asks if anyone can figure out whether it's also in PSPACE or not.. I'm thinking that it can't be, that this is the canonical example he gives to show the difference between the spaces, like SAT separates P from NP (if they're separated at all). But no, he says, MORPH DFA is in PSPACE.. *short pause* because PSPACE = NPSPACE.
The guy next to me says "oh my god". I think I said "what the f**k!?!" My head's still swimming. Why is space complexity so different from time? Maybe it's not! Could P=NP? If we can figure out a polynomial time algorithm for SAT, would someone poly-time reduce the discrete logarithm problem to it quickly enough to destroy the world financial network before we move on to quantum encryption/entanglement? What sort of a world is this, where spaces collapse before my eyes? I came out of that class grinning like an idiot.
Computer -Science- is fascinating, and beautiful, and vast. There are so many open questions! Programming often sucks, because it's stuff you need to do and other people want to have working. I'm in love with Haskell and trying to get myself to learn it better by doing something with it, but.. there isn't much opportunity. Most people want sequential programs. Most of the 'interesting things' to be done involve getting your word document open or your Sorenson pr0n moving along at a nice framerate.
If you want to keep the marraige alive, keep yourself in touch with what you love. Yeah, crap programming pays well, and you'll probably make the most money writing a shell script for someone who doesn't know how to do it but just happens to be rich, but. There must have been something about CS that lit a spark in your mind when you were a kid. Play with it. CS is a vast field - don't drown in the corner of it that pays your salary.
Finish your degree. You are so close. Whether you enjoy it or not, you want that piece of paper for down the road, trust me.
Now.. as for jobs. There certainly are jobs out there for CS grads. They just might not pay someone with a degree and no experience $100,000 a year like they would have a couple years ago.. that's the difference. Things are more realistic now.
You can expect to find a job somewhere, programming, or whatever, and gain some experience. If you are good, in a few years, you will have that big salary.
It's a mistake to think that the university degree is what gives you your big salary... University is just one way to open the door to a particular field for you. (In some fields, it's practically the only way). Your experience and abilities are what really count.
No degree is going to automatically finish your career for you. A degree is a beginning, not an end.
I did this.
:)
I left midway through my Junior year of Computer Engineering because I got sick of classes and mindless busywork. I also had the job experience to know that it wouldn't be much better (for me) outside academia.
I spoke with advisors, friends, parents, and anyone else I could think of and they all recommended I stay in school and at least get that damn piece of paper.
I left anyway.
I found out shortly thereafter what each of those individuals personal agendas were and why they wanted me to stay, and that they recommended a course of action for me that satisfied their own objectives. I learned lots from this, and have remembered since that other people (even those who care) don't always have your best interests at heart--and frequently they're not aware that they don't.
After I left, I accepted an offer of a job/partnership as a professional ballroom dancer/teacher. My first serious pro performance was on Broadway, and my partner and I run a studio in Massachusetts. We're entering pro competition next season (re-entering for her; she's a Nationals Champion), and I've never been happier. We stumbled upon a fantastic investment and purchased our own building about 6 months ago, and I used my computer skills and network of friends/associates to get a second fulltime job created for me (from which I'm posting this now) as padding for the mortgage until our business recovers from the move. Now I don't have much free time, but I keep up with tech news and Slashdot, and even get to play with tech (as a tax writeoff!) when I get a chance. I get to maintain our website (see URL above) when I get a chance (currently out of date, but I'm booking myself time to update this weekend)--and what used to be mindless tedium has become an enjoyable tease of the tech I used to live.
In short, find that one thing that lights you up, and do it. It doesn't matter what it is (for me, teaching is much more rewarding --and challenging-- than profiteering ever could be), just do it, and when you look back you'll discover that not only do you not regret, but you'll find enjoyment in teases of the life you used to live. (like my current project of a TB+ fileserver to store our CD collection losslessly
Good luck!
Dan
There are some great inexpensive hookers you can afford once you start makin 120k/year. Trust me a good [type]job goes a long way.
In my situation, I found I was bored early on in my EE but I stuck with it because nothing else really caught my eye in uni. That and switching to a different major is a pain in the ass. CS or EE are both excellent degrees to earn a living should you ever need to.
In my situation I know that been a 733t c0d3r is not my bag. Computers are a great hobby, but I don't know about a living. I am definately missing something that I didn't see before. I need work that gives me what I need.
First problem: Need to get to know yourself. Figure out what makes you tick, for some its programming (other stuff than they program at work), for others its something completely different (HR, medical sciences, other physical sciences, business). Find and take as many apptitude and vocational inventories as you can find, try volunteering at various places, read books on careers, talk to people, spend time at the library.
For vocational inventories, try: jvis.com or acareertest.com.
Second: Write about what interests you, dream, generate ideas on what might make you happy doing day in day out. This may be the hardest thing you ever have to do, but something you really want to do. It will take a lot of looking, reading, asking yourself and repeating this cycle until you refine your essence - what makes you tick.
Last: Make a plan and start working towards it, get moving -- you got one shot this lifetime at finding what makes you really happy and every hour your employer takes from you in exchange for a few bucks is another hour gone forever from your limited number you have in your life.
Don't wait to find what you love doing, and once you find it (it will take time and lots of effort, consistent, persistent effort - but you will find it) do it well, and do it with all your heart.
Only people who don't like what they are doing retire - those doing what they love never retire.
m
Hacking is the fun stuff, everything else is the boring stuff. Find some fun stuff to do and it will come back. Keep doing everything else and you will forget that it was ever fun. I've always got half a dozen projects on the go. Most will never go anywhere but are for my own enlightenment and enjoyment.
OTOH, not everyone is hacker/geek material. You just might not have the chops to do it. Nothing wrong with that, and better to find out now then to realized that you've wasted umpteen years doing something you don't like.
Service garauntees citizenship!
I drag myself to classes and through projects, and it all seems really pointless--I'm just implementing what's written in the book, and eradicating the countless off-by-one bugs is nothing short of mind-numbing
Try getting involved in some research projects. It probably should not be in the CS department, but rather one of the other departments. Lend you CS expertise to a different kind of undertaking. You will also get a chance to learn about something outside of CS as well as picking up some usefull experience.
If you can't find a school project to work on, make one of your own. Again try to go outside of a pure CS project and delve into something new. Think about ways your CS experience could improve something else and then do it.
For example, when I was in school, I worked on projects for the physics department and the business department. The former needed some automated data collection and the latter needed some statistical modelling. Both provided me a well needed break from the ordinary as well as intoducing me to some real world problems.
Although I have been in the field for about 6 years now (working for a major telecom mfgr), and I still take on "outside" projects from time to time. Be it setting up a webserver for a local charity or building a remote control boat from scratch, both provide me the relief from the monotony of always working on someone else's dream. It is refreshing and rewarding and helps you out back in "the world".
In summary - diversify your skills.
Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
... lots.
Narcotics can be a viable alternative, but of variable legality.
Alcohol is probably your best bet, since it includes the excellent possibility of terminal self-immolation.
Failing that, go out and get a life
The hard core C programming and data structures often associated with CS is not nessisarily what you're gonna get out in the work place.
Theres nothing saying that you can't do RAD with visual basic, or web scripting or other programming endevours which (dispite the fact that they CAN get very complicated and tricky) are often quick and easy. That is to say, assuming its the trickyness, and little perfectionist things that are pissing you off about CS. Perhaps you just need to try different types of programming!
Solving problems. That's what I'm good at. And I really like it. I'm a problem solver. I find them, I fix them. I don't care if I do the flashy, high-tech, front-line programming (which I sometimes do) or just some old MS-DOS scrpt, I just want to fix things.
Like a plumber, though it's bytes and bits. And I enjoy it very much, helping people with configuration problems, searching for bugs, all kinds of things. I've been doing this for work since at least 1996 and it's still fun. I don't do much designing though I maybe could like that too, I think it'smore fun to find the bugs in other peoples' design... :)
Don't despair, there are problems to be solved EVERYWHERE!
When we at OBU started getting that way
we did this: CSMaster
Don't give up! Life doesn't always suck!
-----------------------------------------
Remove the Greed which plagues mankind.
And (gasp!) a female of the species. On slashdot. Will wonders never cease?
"It was a summer's tale: Just a boy, his Linux, and a head full of dreams..."
Jeez, 400 posts in an hour? I hope you find this one in the swarm...
I was in the same situation: University of Maryland, College Park. Three years into a CS degree, hating the classes, withdrawing left and right to avoid getting D's. I love computers, I love creatively using them, I hate to program. I loathe my classes, am not having any fun at school and generally was completely and utterly miserable.
Then I found the Independent Studies (IVSP) department, and I was saved! (insert church organ sting here)
Seriously. Works like this: You design your own cirriculum on a focused concept, drawing from courses across multiple disciplines. Get sponsored, get approval, go through an application process... and if it's clear you're serious about this and what you want to study isn't just 'Like Such-and-Such Major, But Easier' then you're in.
In my case, I designed (I still don't like the name, but..) Computers and Interactive Media. Lots of art classes and writing classes combined with computer science. Since I was able to mix and match and apply my humanities to my inhumanities, so to speak, I could study topics I was keen on -- user interface design, new methods of interactivity, product design, etc. I even tossed in some film study and computer graphics to implement multimedia in my work.
Now I'm a web designer and database programmer for the Food and Drug Administration's Center for Devices and Radiological Health. I have a stable job and I do a smorgaboard of tasks for my division; I redesigned the homepage, I streamlined various user data entry applications, and I retouched the chairman's photo to make him look less bald. Work is (usually) an entertaining challenge with a variety of things to do, rather than pumping out code 24/7.
If the CS department is not ringing your bell, if they aren't providing what you really want in life, see if there's an interdisciplinary studies or independent studies department on your campus. It can be a lot harder than a normal major in a lot of respects -- I was writing a five page paper a week at one point and the application process was crazy -- but it also might be exactly what you wanted.
I'll get modded as redundant for this comment because what I have to say echoes SamJooky's comment. Career-related issues like this one are important, though, and the point needs to be reinforced.
:-P): It's okay to change your mind! Find what you like doing, and then do it well. The "doing it well" part will follow naturally from the "like doing it" part. He backed the point up with a story of a man who was a drudge chemist in his 40s, hated it, and completely switched careers to something he enjoyed.
:-P) and focus on that. What courses were really fun for you? Focus on those. Talk to the professors and other students in that major. Could you see yourself doing that as a career? If so, go for it! If not, keep looking around, and don't be afraid to change your mind a time or two.
If you're miserable at something in school, believe me, it just gets worse on the outside, in the real world. When I was an undergrad, I was a EE major for a quarter (this school had 10-week quarters instead of 16-week semesters), then a CS major for about two years. As time passed I realized how much I hated everything about the major. I enjoyed the electives (some science, mostly humanities) that I took far more than I enjoyed courses in my major. The father of one of my best friends taught at the school I attended, and offered some of the best advice I'd ever had up to that point in my life (even though I got a "C" in his film class
It's typical for people these days, at least in the U.S. where I am, to change careers several times. If you don't like what you're doing at any point in your life, find what you do like, and do that. I switched from CS to Economics in undergrad, and changed schools twice. It took me five years to graduate, but so what. After going on to grad school (thinking I wanted a Ph.D. in Econ, but being quite happy with an M.A.), I now find myself happily coming back to a CS-focus, as I've been a database analyst and statistical programmer for a large credit card bank for the last couple of years. For me, this combines the fun of CS-related work with the fun of using my Econ skills and experience.
So, to sum up and hopefully offer some practical advice, I urge you and anyone else in this dilemma to take some time to think about what is most enjoyable (and career-oriented -- it's tough to get paid drinking beer, fun though that is
Good luck!
Get Degrees, get Certifications, buy books and read them. I did that, got me a skyrocket carrer (in 3 years from support dude to Tech Manager for a major Solution Provider)I get to call the shots and lead a great group solving matters for companies such as Bank Boston and GE.
I can handle M$, Cisco, Linux. Got the papers to show and, above all, my experience.
Funny thing is: Last time my VP called me for a regular chat, he enumerated my qualities topping them with the fact that I make a difference for being an artist.
I have a Bachellor's Degree in Design, Airbrushed everything from Indy car race Helmets to Trucks for years, used to teach Spanish and English, I'm a good mechanic for my bikes and classic cars.
I guess that's what keeps me alive, and still in bussiness! But that doesn't mean I wouldn't drop everything and move to the mountains with my baby girls in a second.
Hi Tech stuff is great ! I'm buying me an iBook just to get to know the system, still, I have to deal with AT&T account managers and Salespeople and Dumb C-whatever-Os twice a week..
Balance things dude, take the final step there, go for the last months of study with a nice lady, or a car restoration, or a house paint running on the side.
Keep a foot in the real world.
I worked in IT for a few years at a hot little .com (which is still around), but I completely burnt myself out working 10 to 14 hours a day behind a computer, five days a week. I quit the job, blew my .fortune in Europe, and came back to pursue my interests in photography.
Nearly two years later, I'm working two to three days a week doing web dev for a small on-line retailer - the work environment is better (it's in a real store, with people who like to do fantastic things like climb large mountains), and it provides enough money to pay the bills. Otherwise, I'm still gung-ho for my photography: Some months I make more than I did at my .com ... and some months I make nothing.
The trick for me is variety! Three days straight behind a computer is all I can really handle ... after that, I go out for the rest of the week, taking pictures, printing in the dark room, with a bit of rock climbing on the side ... I had forgotten how enjoyable it can be to actually use my muscles .. puny as they may be.
By the time I go back to the webdev job, I'm fired up and ready for a couple long days hacking PHP and CSS. On the down side, I don't make as much money as I used to. On the plus side, I'm much more satisified with the work I do, and I'm a happier person in general.
If playing to the "mindless little robot" doesn't amuse you anymore (if it ever did ;), then the only way to go back to your roots and enjoy it the way you used to is simply to go off-book. Use that creativity of yours -- that you may simply have forgotten -- and do something useful of it. Create a revolution in CS by rewriting the cookbooks from scratch with your own innovations.
Some suggestions :
=>Drop school. This isn't where you'll learn anything useful anyway, let alone find inspiration for creativity.
=>Study parallel fields, such as maths, electronics, physics, maybe even psychology. CS isn't going to do any good if applied only to itself anyway.
=>Dive into research papers. Of course it's a pain to understand anything in them given the way so-called 'experts' formulate things, but at least it'll give you some ideas where to start from ; you'll be aware of problems worth solving.
=>Find some peers that share your insatisfaction with. The more fools in such a quest the better.
--Martin
martin001.girard@sympatico.ca
Just finish school and get a job. I've found work outside of academia far more interesting and engaging ... and fiscal compensation goes a long way towards curbing boredom.
The only problem might be the cost (it's never cheap)
That's not necessarily true. If you're going just for a MS, sure, you'll pay at least a limb or two. If you're going for a PhD, you'll pretty much be covered (not just in CS, but in most of the sciences). "Covered" usually includes full tuition, plus some living stipend. I'm in a CS PhD program, and I get about $13k for the academic year (+tuition and medical coverage), and during the summer I get about twice the rate of the normal year if I'm on a research grant, and of course you can make plenty more interning for the summer (did that the previous summer and made just shy of twice as much in those three months than what I made in the other nine). Sure, you're not living the bling-bling lifestyle, but it's not bad so long as you don't have to support a family or have large outstanding gambling debts to pay off.
As far as the work goes, I think it depends on a whole lot of variables: the institution, your interests, the professors, how well you get along with your advisor and others in your group, what kind of project(s) the group is working on, how heavy your teaching load going to be, what life outside the department is like (if you don't enjoy your life, it makes it harder to enjoy your work as well), etc. Another poster mentioned something about professors who shun the "real" world and aren't interested in applying the science to actual applications or keeping up with the latest developments. Sure, plenty of those exist. But there are also plenty who are indeed interested in such things. It depends on their interests. Remember that programming in and of itself is just a tool and not "computer science". (Insert prolonged debate about what computer "science" really is at this point...) It's up to the prospective PhD student to find a program that's a good match for him/her. If you just choose some university based on their reputation or the size of the stipend, you may very well end up in an unhappy situation. If you're going to spend the next 4-6 years doing research in CS (or any other field for that matter), do a few hours of research ahead of time to find out all you can about your options and then make an informed decision!
And of course graduate school isn't for everybody.
Most people fail at doing this. They are driven by the lust of money. They soon forget what they love to do, or why they are involed in their current actions. If they can learn to keep moving, towards making theirselves better at what they love to do, they might find happiness at the end of the road. However, sadly to many people get in a rut and are unable to move out of it becuase of the fear of failure. They value much were they are at and all the work they put into it. They think they can ever get to the same position. They become content. They accept the belife that they are a failure and could never become "that". They accept the thinking what is now is good enough then the hard work that lead to new paths on the road. They end up degrading the furture to feel better. However, that is their own lie. The best is yet to come. Knowing who you are will lead you to the best.
The journey is better then the end.
Do what I did, go check out Nepal for like 3 months (hey its cheaper than a day in College). Spend some time walking around in the mountains there and CS will never seem more irrelevant.
That is if you truly look around.
Same thing happened to me, but it was after 1 year of work. Just suddenly I got bored. I enjoyed the design part of the job, but it turned out that most of the time all I did was fix bugs, test and write doc. Probably only 10% of the time was I using logic in my job. the rest was grunt work.
Do you know what I did, I got into an analyst role specializing in requirements analysis, also got to do a little design work. From there I moved into Product Mgmt for a software company and I love it. I never thought I would like a job this much.
I did chemistry for 4 years and now I have a degree and that horrible feeling I will do nothing with it but use it as my ticket to ANY job besides chemistry. Of course, it's hard to tell what you want to really do if you have spent all your time in school without any work experience. Internships ae great because they tell you at least what you DON'T like, and possibly what you do.
My advice would be to try to remember that feeling of conquering the world, and see if ANY of your plans are actually feasible with what you know, or with what you know you could learn. I remember coming to college thinking that with chemistry and some physics I would single-handedly develop working nanotechnology and have a machine that made me steak! That, I see now, won't be feasible for some time to come.
More importantly, though, is that I realized that to do all those things I would have to abandon many of the relationships with friends and family that I had developed, because real "success" in these technical fields usually demands single-minded focus to the detriment of almost everything else in your life.
Sure, you hear about brilliant scientists who were quirky and interesting and who also developed Quantum Electrodynamics, but you have to realize that there is a level of obsession there that is honestly (to me, at least) creepy, and will certainly force many other things out of your life.
Of course you could get a job that is only medium-stress, medium-gain, and medium-think. But,
if you really want to be a Geek, you will tie yourself to THINGS, because that is what a Geek is at heart... a Master of Thins. If you want to deal with people (at all), you will have to come up for air and find out what truly has meaning to you.
You may find this difficult to swallow, but this is really probably the best time to figure all this stuff out because at least you are still a student, you are still young, I guess, and you stiull don't have any dependents. You could decide right now to go be a hermit and not hurt your wife and children. Of course, I don't suggest this, but that's becasue I don't want to see another Unabomber.
Anyway, jsut realize that if you are over the age of 19 and don't already have a blueprint to the next big thing, it's already probably too late, so have some fun with your life.
Even more, think about what it all means.
Things you like to hear from geeks: Thank you You're welcome
He didn't ask why he isn't happy, he's asking for a solution to the monotony of his field. Honestly, every job comes with this problem, where you just stop loving what you do like you used to. Eventually though, something happens to bring back the joy. Sometimes a job change, in his case, being in school (as am I) generally just thinking about something else for a while does the trick. I've been there, I know, I got bored with it for a while too. So I concentrated on the other things I enjoyed...baseball, I used to love to play baseball (until I hurt my arm that is )-: , reading (you name it, classics, Tom Clancy, Sci-Fi)...I just went about my hobbies and limited my computer use to the stuff I had to use it for. After a month, I suddenly just missed it.
The joy never came from being on the bleeding edge, it was expressing my creativity, and trying to find a quicker way to implement an algorithm, or a more efficient way.
In the 80s an IBM or Apple engineer...sorry don't know which...walked into an electronics store and noticed they were selling a type of computer he had helped engineer and a young boy was writing some kind of program on it. He asked the kid what he was doing and he was trying to get the computer to achieve some rather dull pointless task in a certain number of seconds, the engineer simply informed him that the computer was not capable of it, and he knew this because he had helped design it. The boy simply said I think I'll keep trying. Before he left the engineer came back to the boy just in time to watch the boy disprove the engineer.
The point? He had a joy, not so much in what he was having the computer do, but, more so in how he could do it.
Derek Greene
1. What you do in the work place is not computer science, it's programming. Computer science is about a way of looking at problems developing heuristics and algorithms, measuring the efficiency of those methods and understanding those trade offs. It provides a way of thinking which can be applied to other fields, such as project management, etc.
2. Programming is a skill that crosses multiple disciplines. Very few programmers are actually working on computers (i.e. operating systems, compilers, etc) but most programmers are using computers in other domains. And often you only use a subset of your knowledge. A hot example is bioinformatics, but another area is computer assisted journalism where reporters are creating programs which mine databases for patterns that are missed, such as income barriers etc. Don't look at computer science as an end, but perhaps as a means to things that do interest you (you mention what you no longer like, but you don't mention what you do). Consider applying it to a domain you do care. And it can be broad. One that I like is using computers for motion capture of dancers, then using the motion capture the choreographer can try new dances without the dancers and relying on her/his mental imagery to see how it will look.
3. Work problems are very different from acadmic problems. Academic problems are meant to be pedagogical to illustrate which can sometime mean boring or exciting depending on the case. Work tends to be application over and over again, generally they are not paying you to learn but to apply.
My own experience is that I started programming, and through small steps ended up in technical marketing and now I am considering a new career entirely. Few people do what they thought they were going to do in college. Some still don't know what they want to do.
If you don't like the solving of problems, than computers may not be for you, but if you think that you can seeing yourself applying computers to other things than stick it out.
Good luck
I was in a similar situation my freshman and sophomore year. I absolutely loved my beginning Computer Engineering classes but then, as I got further into it, they became less fun and more painful. It's not just that they became more difficult, the subject matter was just no longer to my liking (circuit analysis and analog are not for me.)
At the same time I found myself enjoying my required CS classes and ended up changing majors. I'm now two semesters from graduating and I'm still greatly enjoying my classes. I definitely work my ass off (Ga. Tech is well known for that) but it's fun.
Basically, maybe CS was good for you at the beginning but once you got further into it, as the true subject matter was exposed, you decided it wasn't for you. I'm definitely not suggesting you to change majors at this point but perhaps you should find a future that involves slightly different material. If grad school is in your plans then figure out what you really like, be it a small specialty of CS or a whole different field, and do that. Same with a future job, make sure it's something you think you'll enjoy doing for the rest of your life (or at least a few years.) I know lots of people who have a degree in one thing and do something completely different.
Good luck.
What I do in university is called Information Management and Technology. It teaches me how information systems can best be used inside companies. Basically, it combines a business education with a CS education. I have to know have corporations work, I learn about management, accounting and basic economics, but also about basic programming, software design, databases and network infrastructure.
:)
Maybe this is something fot you. You'll find yourself working with computers most of the time, but instead of learning exactly how they work and how you can operate them, you'll learn how to use them for business use. You'll be able to get nice jobs
I sympathize. Here's what I did, and it worked. You may find it useful. I was a Finance and Accy student (zzzz) who took CS classes because they were fascinating. I got a job as an investment analyst, and here's how the three things I studied in college, pretty dull in themselves, got great: business people are technologically and mathematically illiterate, generally speaking. I found ways of applying the thought process that underlies quality software design applies equally well to organizing the way companies take in, store and use information. By becoming the "go to guy" for IT regarding ops and ops regarding IT, I made IT happy (they had a friend in operations) and my boss happy (he got the kind of information he needed without having to deal with IT directly). My company likes it, because this is exactly the sort of job consultants do, but they cost a LOT more. I like it because my face is very well know at many levels and departments - helps job stability. So, in a nutshell - apply your skills in arenas that most CS people don't consider, because no-one tells them there are other places to use them. Romantic? No. Challenging - not in the way, say, pushing the LINUX kernal is, but better than living in "office space". Good luck.
There are two problems here:
1 your course
2 you
Your course has lost your attention because it's not difficult enough. If you're just implementing something from a book, you're wasting everybodies time. It's fine for beginners, but if you're finding it boring then it's probably not challenging you enough. The alternative is that you can't be bothered to concentrate on tricky technical stuff and it's too much like hard work, in which case you need to find a career which is better suited to someone who doesn't want to think. Practically anything will do. So, if it's the latter, try and choose which does something useful like becoming a teacher or a drug dealer, as opposed to parasitical careers like law, banking, or marketing.
On the other hand, if it's a question of not being stretched enough, you have no excuse. You're at university - you have access to equipment, information and vaguely competent colleagues, so find yourself something interesting to do. Preferably something which seems feasible, but hasn't been done before. If you can't think of anything, maybe you don't have a brain, in which case see careers advice above.
The kind of project I mean is: writing some software that expresses migratory patterns of birds as music, try modelling and simulating the way flocks of birds form patterns, or creating some music visualization software that works well with classical music, or writing some software that measures the effects of mozart on brain wave patterns. If that kind of thing is too difficult write some software that respins CNN articles so that the propoganda effect is reversed, start simple with keyword substitution (terrorist -> freedom fighter, our brave soldiers -> our insitutionalized murderers, etc). Write some software that analyzes english text and determines a coefficient for it's manipulative content, then try it on everything from Rush Limbar to Richard Feynman, do something interesting for fucks sake.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
About 12 years ago I felt the same way about food. I went to an excellent and expensive culinary school and worked at top restaraunts, thinking that one day I'd put my mark on the food world by having a famous dish named after me that would cause generations of people to drool when it was mentioned.
I work in IT now. Try culinary school maybe?
I had been feeling the exact same way. So I decided writing something that was challenging and fun and not assigned. My family thought I was crazy for spending my time writing more code, but it helped me to realize that I do love programming.
By the time I graduated with CS degree, I was sick of CS as well. I ended up going into the Military working in a completely different area. Four years later, I got out of active duty and started pursuing a career in IT.
Now my GPA in school was low but I did graduate and I still enjoy computers.
I know what you mean. I got bored with school, I hated the projects, so I went out and got a job. To tell you the truth it was all good until I realized that without that peice of paper I will never make as much as I should. If you want to really enjoy computers, move out to west, I'd recommend San Francisco. The people are the enviornmet is nice, and the skills are much more appreciated. I will admit it is hard coming home from work and then messing around with computers, but I havn't got the point where its that bad... yet. Keep on trucking and make sure you get into what you want to do. CS is a big feild, there are tons of things you can specialize in when you get there, just make sure you know what you want, and you'll be happy. I just cant wait till my time here is up and i get my degree so i can move out west and do something I enjoy.
The problem with most CS folks that I know is that they dive in and wallow in the stuff to the exclusion of everything else. Nobody can do one thing endlessly without getting fried, even if they think they can (try to convince a guy who's knee deep in coding the Master Widget that he needs to walk away from his computer and play lawn darts or do some other non-CS activity. It's like trying to take a bowl of food away from a dog while he's eating).
:)
Lots of folks here are recommending that you step away from CS for a week or two and do something else. I don't agree. Keep doing what you're doing, just don't do it exclusively. Spend time with your CS stuff, then at a certain point in the day turn off the monitor, go get a beer, watch a movie, go out with your significant other, whatever. The next day, get back to it, but be sure to spend some time during your day not even thinking about CS.
If more geeks would do this, we'd probably have less religious wars (KDE/GNOME, GPL/BSD, etc.). Perspective is a powerful thing, and unfortunately CS folks forget that there's more to the day-to-day grind than sitting in front of a computer. When your world shrinks that small, it's no wonder CS folks get so high-strung.
If you're well rounded (no fat jokes, thank you) you'll have a much better chance of not reaching the point of burn out. Become single-minded, and burn-out is inevitable.
If none of that works, try Paxil.
dirt and lots of water...deal with it.
I finished college in '99. I had a problem long about the end of my jr year. I didn't really have any CS courses left for my last year, and I didn't really feel any smarter. Ever since I was 7 I had wanted to be a programmer, now with all of my CS education effectively done I was worried about my goals. You see I had been so focused on CS my entire life that now that I felt the goal was achieved I didn't know what to do.
I had a good friend who assured me that new goals would pop up, but it is hard when you have always been looking at one goal. So I finished my last year, concentrating on my other major (Philosphy) and on having fun.
My first job out of college was not the best, writing code to communicate between a sparc and an encryptor for satelite communication, but I didn't stop looking. In college I had wanted to write games, but now in the workforce I was giving that idea up. I started to be more interested in the web, and so I thought about working at a web company. As luck may have it I was regularly playing ultimate frisbee with a bunch of people from Yahoo!. When I noticed a couple bugs in their games, I asked after the ultimate game if anyone worked on Y!Games. I told them about the bugs, and I asked for an interview. Now, 20 months and 6 games later here I am, happy.
My advice is, do the dirty and unexciting work, but always keep your eyes open to other possibilities.
---
"To know recursion, you must first know recursion."
Here's what I find that keeps me going, when it comes to school, I hate it. So I find programs to write that I want, or that friends of mine could use. When It's not school work, it's cool work.
Forget archaeology unless you like moving every 6 months, living like a pariah with more tons more education than your local 7-11 manager but making less money, and being concerned about layoffs twice to three times a year
Yes, but you will get laid a lot more. I was a poor history graduate student once. Trust me. When you're stressed out and sick of reading article after article, and the girl across from you is also, good things happen.
Then, marry the one you like best and get a well paying job in CS.
You laugh - I met people in grad school and law school who said they went specifically to find a husband or wife!
or is that a comet?
You have a number of options. First off, plan on completing your degree. Having a degree in SOMETHING is almost always better than NOTHING. You can find jobs that are not very related to CS, but will still respect your CS degree in its requirements.
Consider graduate school. With the economy somewhat depressed, now might be a good time to continue your eduction. If you're getting bored because you aren't adequately challenged or because you aren't getting enough "meat", you may find some relief in graduate programs. They tend to be more highly specialized, and you can really learn and do some cool stuff. You are also led by the hand much less in a graduate program. Instead, you are presenting with theories and concepts, and it's your responsibility to translate those into reality.
Consider adding another Bachelor's degree. I believe somebody mentioned this earlier, but you probably aren't far off from other degrees. If you think your interests now lie in another area, you may be able to pick up a degree in that area with only an extra year of school.
Consider jobs that allow you to use your CS degree to an extent, but that you don't find mind-numbing or boring.
Most importantly, don't forget that no job is all play. Every single job you can take will involve aspects that you find personally distasteful. I'm really good at debugging, but I hate doing it. I prefer to come up with a concept and let other hammer out the details. But unfortunately, part of my job is delivering fully functional software. Like most analysts, I abhor writing documentation. But somebody has to do it, and a technical writer isn't always readily available. I can usually do a pretty good job, but it takes me a lot more time than it would for somebody who writes for a living.
Perhaps even more important, don't feel like something is "wrong" with you because your interests have changed. This happens to people several times during their life, and it looks as though you got your change at an inconvenient time. I had a similar thing happen. After three years as an Electrical Engineering student, I decided that wasn't what I wanted to do for a living, no matter how well it paid. Instead of completing my EE degree, I switched to CS with a hardware design emphasis, and I've been much happier with that. But you can bet that when I started in EE, that's exactly what I wanted to do. After getting thoroughly involved in it though, my desires and thoughts changed. You're probably experiencing something similar.
GreyPoopon
--
Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
If you find a job you love you'll never work another day in your life!
Bollocks! I loved my job 3 years ago, then about a year ago it started to get me down, it was mundane. It was all the things you express here.
So I quit, and did something else. I started a company with what little money I had so that I could do smaller jobs, for varied clients, keeping the interest alive. I could just have easily taken a different job, or gone back to school - the point is I CHANGED.
It worked, its fun again, now that the worst of the financial worries are (touch wood) over. I'm back to having a job I love.
The truth is that you need to find a job you love every couple of years - or just accept that your days will be spent grunting along with the rest of them, while at night! at night you turn into the mega world changing shag fest that you always wanted to be.
So stop NOW, dont even finish the year - pick something else and do THAT. NOW. TODAY, well - take the weekend to think it over then do it on Monday!
Every week you stay where you are increases your stress levels - and puts you nearer your grave!
...you make it out into the real world.
No, really, it's a lot better. My GPA as a CS student in college was sub-lackluster, owing partly to my desire to get out of the academic world and start doing something productive. And once I got to "the real world," I've never enjoyed software development more. An actual software project consists of so much more than the academic process of churning out code that solves academic problems. The concepts are important, to be sure, but the challenge of solving real-world problems is much more highly motivating.
It's been over seven years ago now since I graduated, and not once have I found myself wishing--even for a fleeting moment--that I had gone into something else. I really believe that once you make it through, get into that first job, and start doing some real work, the passion will return.
Cheers,
Jeremy
Well I'd say since you have a semester left, suffer through it, and get the CS degree. Unfortunatley for myself I gave up on CS far sooner. It also didn't help that I had to stop going fulltime and work fulltime to pay for school. I wound up switching my major into interdisciplinary stuides. I found philosophy and msth courses more fun and stimulating, and a nice diversion from my day job as a sysadmin.
Eventually I'll get a grad degree in CS or Astronomy. I'd imagine the CS one will come first. But overall I enjoy what I do for a living, and it makes it easier to work. If you hate what you do, then doing that every day gets old quick. Since I left my old job, I have found myself with free time. And I've found myself playing with my computers at home again. And I've also found myself learning much more than I was 7 months ago.
Basically I just got fed up with the cirriculm at the university, went my own route. But wound up in the field that I wanted to be in. (My other career option was Astronomy, although I'm not as qualified for it).
"If you insist on using Windoze you're on your own."
I'm not trying to flamebait when I say wake up and smell the coffee. Welcome to the work world, even when you're doing something that you love, almost no job will ever be your dream one. There are the fortunate few, but I freaking love to program, and I'm a programmer. I love the challenge of it, I love solving something that I never thought of before, I love telling people "Yes, I can do that" when I have no idea how I'm going to do it, and then going ahead and doing it.
Do I like my job? No. You know why? Because it's not my agenda which I need to satisfy at work. It's the agenda of my boss, of my production manager, of our clients. I program PHP, ASP, JSP, pages attaching to a variety of data sources. In my professional opinion, no webpage should ever have background music, it really really bothers me when I come across them on the web. The project I'm working on today, they want the bass line of Mission Impossible droning on endlessly in the background. Yes, the same 4 bars, nonstop. I'm forced to produce content that I professionally disagree with, because the client thinks it's "cool." Doing a lot of off-by-one debugging is also part of the job. Doing programming that you find trivial and mundane is part of the job. Let me tell you how many online quizzes I've done. Oh wait, my 0 key broke off last time I typed that number. Do you know why we do it though? Because once in a while you get something you can really sink your teeth in to. That makes the job worthwhile.
Some days I come home and plop down on the couch, having completely exhausted myself in something I hate. Other days, I come home and plop down on the couch, exhausted, but internally invigorated with the awesome code I wrote today. CS classes suck. They've sucked for years. I just graduated last year, and I hated my courses. For the most part they didn't teach me anything I couldn't have learned in half or a quarter of the time on my own, if they even managed to teach me anything. I'm telling you, a real job is more exciting, because you're often blazing new paths.
Don't forget that if after a year or two of programming, you find that programming as a professional really takes the joy out of all computing for you, you can still go back to school and finish another degree. You'll also appreciate that degree more having come from the real work world.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
Rock 'n Roll!
Get butt-naked!
Alchohol really helps, seriously.
~ now you know
It's alot of theory. We have only two classes whose main focus is actual programming. The rest of our classes are more theoretical with the occaisional pseudo-code program. Afew mix the theory with actual coding.
Take a woodworking class.
Learn how to cook.
Pound nails with Habitat for Humanity.
Build a web site for the PTA.
Contra dance.
Learn Latin.
Brew beer.
Become an expert on something (eg, Central Asian history).
These are some of the things I have done over the past 20+ years to recharge my batteries. Programming is just one part of my life. Learn how to live; life is short. Dump the cable company, the computer games, and all the other time-wasters.
I'm curious, at what point did you decide "Hot damn! I wanna hack computers!", and had you done any type of programming/geekwork prior to that?
:) In the meantime you might be able (if you have the time) to get a part-time job slinging code (or pulling cables or whatever), that could go a long way towards broadening your horizons. Even if it's just a few hours a couple days a week maybe you can intern somewhere - more for the experience than the cash.
/.'ers have suggested.
Because I think it boils down to two possibilities:
a) You're bored with being in college learning to be their concept of a geek (personally I passed on the whole college thing)... This might be summed up as "If geekdom is like college I'm doomed"
- or -
b) You're bored with being a geek, and the prospect of doing this kind of crap for the rest of your life is horrid. Summed up as "I didn't know this was geekdom! Eeeeww!"
In the case of A, everything I've heard about college c/s informs me that it's about as far from the real world as Narnia. Suggesting you sweat through the final hours and look forward to finding a job that will keep you interested (or become a consultant, and play Russian roulette on a regular basis
In the case of B, try other stuff as approximately 150 other
Personally I think true geeks are born and not made, but that's advice worth every penny you paid for it.
In any case, good luck. It'd be interesting if you could post in a year or two and let us know what you decided and how it worked out.
When you start out and need a sort routine your
first instinct is to write it.
After a while that grows boring and you look for existing libraries, perl modules etc.
You don't write code for the sake of writing code.
You write code to create solutions.
Be it finance, games or hacking someones computer,
you are writing code to create a solution, not to
just up the worlds code count.
You have to find out what fields interest you.
When you do the code writing will be worthwhile.
was just reading about your situation and it sounds pretty familiar. not to long ago i finished school with a cs degree. when i first started my cs studies, i would get really excited to get up and work on that modified sorting algorithm that uses queues instead of stacks. by the time i was taking the last of the classes at school - which happened to be the electives that got me excited about cs study in the first place - often i found that one of the hardest parts of assignments i had was getting myself to sit down in front of the computer. needless to say by the time the time that i handed the last of my cs exams as an undergrad i was completely sick of coding. what i did after graduation was probably the best thing i could do to get me excited about coding again. since i was fortunate - especially in this economy - to have accept a job offer before graduation i simply called my employer and asked to start a few months after graduation rather than a few weeks. in those few months i made an effort to not look at computer screen at all - i even went to far as to format my harddrives to i couldn't use it even if i wanted to. the time away helped me greatly and by the time i started coding again - it became exciting since i haven't done it for a while. not only that, but a lot of the coding that you do outside of school is vastly different from what's done in school. chances are you'll also be around some amazingly good programers who can show you so much stuff that you may have never heard of - so the world can indeed seem new again!!!
I was working at Price Club/PriceCostco/Costco beamoaning my fate because when I broke it all down I realized that my job was to stack boxes neatly. (Sadly, my actual job was to make sure other stacked boxes neaty.)
I thought, "Gasp! this is my life? It's boring!"
Now I am a SysAdmin. While I read a lot more than I did when I was stacking boxes neatly (Do Not Use Cutter To Open pretty much covered my on the job reading) I am basically stacking boxes neatly. They're directories, and files, but ultimately they're just boxes.
How do I keep it interesting? I automate everything I can with Perl (man I could use an Answer::PhoneCalls module.) I learn other languages. I learn other OSes. I learn.
If you copy things out of books you will get bored. If you use books to do do things you will not. Don't be afraid to reinvent the wheel either. Just because someone has made something that sets your clock to some Atomic Clock and checks your mail doesn't mean you can do the same thing.
Remember You're bored, CS is not boring
This
These aren't specifically about making CS fun again, but they do shed some light on those vast existential issues that haunt intelligent people:
"Man's Search for Meaning," by Viktor Frankl, a good general book on figuring out what your purpose is in the world.
"The Tao of Pooh," a book that's got good insights, sometimes expressed a little simplistically.
"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," by Robert Pirsig, a book that discusses what it means to really DO things, and do them well, often against the opposition of society.
I wish I'd read any of those books when I was at your junction in life.
So my advice to you is to sit back, think "What sounds fun?" and make a go at that. What have you got to lose? It isn't like you can't go back when CS becomes interesting again. Just don't forget what you've learned, because that quest for knowledge wasn't in vain.
I've been there/done that. I've been out of school for 14 years, now. (Damn!) There have been times where I couldn't wait to get to work, and other times where I considered quitting on the spot.
Sure, it sucks, but, what are your alternatives?
1. Stay home with Mom and Dad (no, Dad, I WON'T watch Gilligan's Island with you again!)
2. Marry someone rich (you can get a new computer AFTER you watch my poodle for the weekend)
3. Travel on a LOW budget to see the world (senor, I can only let you ride in back with the chickens)
4. Invent the next "big" thing and strike it rich (online window-washing will be huge - I'm certain of it!)
You're going through a low-period. Stick it out. Realize that there is more to life than work. My family and friends are now priority 1, and everything else is secondary. I hope you get to that point some day. It makes life so much more worth living.
Something else that makes life more interesting: do things wrong. I'm not saying drive the wrong way down the street, but question everything you do, even if it seems trivial. You will laugh at things you've always done a certain way for no reason at all, and you just might stumble across a better way to do something. (Can you say "business opportunity"?)
Good luck.
- Bill
Not everything you pursue during your professional career will be sexy, exciting, or fun. Some of it is complete drudgery. You'll fight OBOB's till the end of time, in one form or another. They'll always be boring and stand in the way of your true goals. But they are mere obstacles - don't overemphasize their importance. Just learn to endure them and you'll be better prepared for the real world. My experience is that things don't stay in the drudgery realm forever. You get past the hurdles and then get to focus again on architecting your masterpieces! Be patient.
Get the paper!!!! No matter what a pain it is, get the paper. It took me 25 years (yes that is a quarter of a century) to get my degree. I was "the computer whiz" in the 70s (yes when Billionaire Billy was just Bill). I have been building and assembling different kinds of systems for over 25 years. No matter how much I knew, or how much money I saved my employers, I was still the guy without the paper. "Degreed engineers must know more, after all, they have degrees." Contract engineers (i.e. contract ignorants) would come in and "design" things that later I would be stuck with to make work. They would put in place some crappy process or procedure or equipment and then leave me to clean up the mess. I could run rings around all of them with software, hardware and field instrumentation. I could design systems that actually worked because I knew where they were likely to fail. But I didn't have the official paper so I couldn't stop their insane implementations. It really pissed me off, but without the degree I was never taken seriously (except in the middle of the night when all hell would break loose because there had been no failure modes considered in a system design). Now that I have my degree, I can be the contract ignorant and hopefully design systems that work. In addition, as the world is "managed" more and more by business school graduates (the folks who couldn't do highschool algebra), technical personnel who might understand what you know will never get to see your resume. You will be rejected by some HR clerk who only notices that you have no degree. CS is a broad field. Pick a spare time exercise in an area that you never considered before. Design a web page or two. Outside of CS, go to a movie, take up martial arts, volunteer at a shelter in the real world. But GET THE PAPER!!!!
It took me a long time to learn a simple fact: you can find a subject really interesting and enjoyable but not want to do it as a career. If your decisions are rooted in what is most marketable and some now years-old idea of yor adult identity as an uber-geek, then you better kiss happiness in your working life goodbye because you can't start with pragmatism and try to force your happiness into what's left. You have to start with your happiness and then find a way to make it pragmatic.
No matter what you do there will be drudge work - if you're doing what you really love it won't bother you as much as the drudge of computer science obviously does. When you're excited enough about the outcome, the necessary toil becomes a mere obstacle, something to be overcome.
You are so close to graduating it probably makes little sense to try to change your major, unless you're close to a second in something you really like (you must be getting 4:0s in something to bring that GPA up). Have you considered graduate school? If you find something that suits you better (hint: you enjoy doing it), it doesn't really matter that much what your undergrad degree was. You might even be able to design something that combines the aspects of CS you love with a topic that will sustain you through the unavoidable drudgery component. If you have the time and opportunity, one possibility is to try to design a directed study as an experiment to finish out your CS degree. Combine a programming project with some sort of back-up area of study that you might consider as a career alternative. Maybe being in the drivers seat, coding for something you really have an interest in will reawaken your interest in CS - or else it might provide a bridge to a new focus of study. But take it from someone who's been there - don't ignore your dissatisfaction, because it won't go away and you won't get used to it. These people that say "welcome to the real world" have just settled. That's a choice we all have to make. It's never too late to change, but the sooner you decide to stick to your guns and choose to follow your heart, the sooner you will start working towards being happy instead of being miserable but addicted to an illusion of security.
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
I thought that I had burnt out, and dropped out of college about halfway through. I spent the next three years as a "migrant programmer", drifting from project to project that other people didn't want to do, usually because they were overqualified for the position. It wasn't until after I'd been fired from the third job for poor productivity that I was diagnosed with clinical depression, which in hindsight had started a year before I left school.
No longer enjoying things that you used to is one of the symptoms of depression. I strongly recommend a thorough medical exam to make sure it's not "just" burnout.
And start making open source porno. Just have a bunch of people take clips and append them to the original. Eventually you'll have a full length feature film. Well maybe not "full length," I mean you are a CS major after all...
(humor)
~ now you know
I joined this company and I receive a monthly paycheck of $500 !!
1. school does not equal work... my gosh does it not equal work! work can be orders of magnitude worse for you, or orders of magnitude better... how? because...
2. there are so many different kinds of jobs under the umbrella of computer-related work out there. not every job is about grinding through code and killings endless mind-numbing bugs. oh god no. your word for the day: transition. in other words, you can get your foot in the door with the kind of degree you have to a kind of job which relies upon skillsets that have nothing to do with the sisyphean tasks you are used to at school.
what the heck am i talking about? check out Rogerborg's post Re: Gaming... notice the various skillsets he alluded to, that have nothing to do with the mind-numbness you allude to. for other examples, use your imagination. it's all about transition dude... there's no need to find terrible regret and decide to become a lawyer or something... you can easily transition into a kind of job under the umbrella of computer-related work that relies upon skillsets that come alot closer to what you thought you were getting into.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Been reading the comments here, and it's almost a psychological cross-section of Slashdot Readers. The people who're disappointed but sticking it out are telling you to tough it out and just try and make the best of it. The people who like their jobs or who handled their issues to their own satisfaction are telling you to experiment, take time off, or whatever.
One thing's the same though. Whatever you do, finish college. Going back is the hardest thing you can do; I've tried it twice - about to go for a third. One way or another, it will help show that you've got the ability to finish what you started.
Now, as for how to make it fun again? That's tricky. If you haven't done any independent coding, that's one way to make it fun. Another is to take a break from it - say, don't touch a computer over winter break or some such - and come back to it when you itch for it.
Overall though, I've only seen one comment that suggests something that's frequently overlooked: Talk to the Career Counselors. They work for a college, and they deal with the kinds of people who change tracks constantly. They're probably going to give you an idea or three about how to handle this crisis. (It is a crisis, too; burnout is never a pleasant thing.)
Furthermore, there's something else you can do. Stop worrying about what to do once you're done with college. Let the school's placement department work on that for you. As always, mixing your degree with another hobby is a good idea if possible. The market's oh-so-slowly starting to rebound, and programmers are always needed in some way, shape or form.
If you've still got time to change your course structure around, I suggest taking some serious fluff courses, on something totally unrelated to coding, or even CS in general. Basket Weaving 101 is the perfect type; you want something that keeps your hands busy and your mind free to wander. The more free time you can make for your mind, the better off you are.
Good luck to you.
You thought that this sig was what you think that I thought you wanted me to think. I think.
Real Computer Science is found when you go, er, way back. Time was, all "computer scientists" were not computer scientists at all but rather physicists, econonomists, chemists, shrinks etc etc who got into computing to help them solve their problems. Those were the last, IMHO, real computer scientists ... even if they were not called that.
And that is where the fun is, using computer technology to help solve problems. Most schools offer computer oriented classes in the other sciences where you are able to apply computing to the science in question. Most schools offer combined programs where you might take a medial in each of CS and some other discipline.
Sure there is a requirement for some people to take "pure" CS, but most of todays pure CS students would be much better off taking a mixed bag of courses. This gives you the chance to apply computing technology to practical problems in other areas, something much more valuable.
- Mark
Ancient Budo Master once told me: "All your bruises are belong to us."
If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right. This doesn't mean you should stick in CS, just that you should find a career you enjoy, or you'll be miserable for all time.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
bad mental pictures of bill murray in a whinibeggo (sp?)
School sucks. Starting out in the work place sucks. But its all good in the end. Here's my short story to illustrate why.
I hated school. I got sick of studying things just for the gee-wiz value. If I had to study another abstract algorithm or data structure without really seeing the benefits, I think I would have quit and become a farmer. I was spinning my wheels; learning a lot (even that was arguable), but it didn't get me any where.
At first, I hated work. I couldn't see the benefit of what I was doing, mostly because it had no benefit. I was just another clog in the corporate wheel. I did what people told me using the tools I acquired in college. I was a factory worker, nothing more. Again, I didn't feel like I was getting any where, but for the opposite reason. My tires were firmly planted, but not spinning since I wasn't learning anything.
Somehow, I found it within to at least do it well and suggest improvements. Over time people realized I had a brain. It did take a few job changes though and a couple years.
Now, I'm happy as a clam. I'm designing and implementing software. I'm given a problem, I have to design the solution, then implement it. I'm learning, then applying it. Now, I was getting somewhere.
The point is, I don't feel alive unless I'm getting somewhere. Neither in school, nor in my first job did I have that feeling. But looking back, they were necessary steps in the road to where I am now, so I guess they did get me somewhere after all.
Switch majors. If you don't like doing it, don't do it.
max
At the end of my sophomore year at Yale, I came to the realization that although I love computers and programming them, I would be very unhappy in life if I decided to follow the path of a computer science major. I changed my major to Economics and Electrical Engineering (double major). I decided to do EE because I don't want to be utterly naive of the way our digital world works, although I have no intention of ever using that degree in a professional sphere. Now, with 1 1 1/2 years left to get my Bachelors, I am looking towards law school, thinking that I may want to become a "tech" lawyer, mixing my interests with a career that could potentially make me very happy. My point? Find something that makes you happy, something that lights an eternal flame in your belly and pursue. If it's not computer science, it may be something that integrates your passion for technology into another field. Look around, it's probably out there.
Not all people are alike, some may like IT jobs, some won't. I can only hope that those not really interested (but only in the money) drop out soon in these times.
As for myself, I studied physics and gradually moved into IT. I am a fanatic and never get enough of it. I consider myself lucky that I can have work that I really like, and I intend to stay into technically challenging jobs, i.e. not go into management, until I'm 60 (hope to retire then, I'm 35 now).
I keep being fascinated by all new developments and things that come along, in a faster pace than in most other professions; I guess that in the end there is a boring element in all jobs, but those that really love their profession will always see interesting things and be able to cope with the negative things that occur everywhere.
The problem is: there are lots of people into IT that don't have that drive/fascination for technology, but mainly for the money that is/was in it. They are bored by the job since they don't have the capacity or will to research things for themselves, which means that those shall get more routine jobs where less initiative is asked or desired.
If I had to choose between money and what I like, it would definately not be money. You can't be good at a job that you do mainly for money, and if you're not good in your job, your job won't be fun.
Along the lines of the other posts, figure out
... in other words, find the *application* first, *then* utilize your computer skills.
what you like to do/study (what subject areas or
activities).
Like biking? Look at the Palm-based bike computers.
Like graphics? Check out SIGGRAPH (www.siggraph.org), find a local chapter, and attend.
Like ? Find an area, then find out who's using
computers with it
Computing is much more fun (IMHO) when you have a real application that you're interested in.
Many people are saying get away from a computer and try something "real". My advice would be to look for some cool new language or technique to play with. I develop web apps at work, and it can sometimes get broing, but when I go home, I can create whatever I want. It can be totally useless and fun, it can be a totally functioning site. Learn PHP, Java (is that still new), XML, etc. There are tons of technologies and weird projects that can be done with web development. I'm partial to it since most of my career has been on the web, but I get real enjoyment out of doing other things on the computer besides what I'm supposed to be doing. When you're only creating for yourself, you don't have to be so concerned about making it useful.
If computers are what you like, keep playing with them, just do it on your own terms.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
I got into CS thinking I'll spend my days programming games, fun stuff and building robots (well I wasn't really THAT naive but i really thought it was going to be fun and I had started programming when I was 8, so it was an easy choice for me). And then after spending evenings and week-ends trying to get a game project going besides my day-job I realized how difficult it was. That and the corrupting power of money that made me spend too much time watching movies, anime tapes and DVDs as well as playing video games instead of working on my games project.
:(
I made some achievements, I'm not bad at all at programming a 3D engine, I'm quite able to optimize incredibly fast assembly routines and I can code really cool effects. But that's not enough to make a real game and by the time I finish my new engine some new comercial game has already done much better.
And what is it all good for in my daily life: NOTHING! I'm just another programmer doing the crap stuff again and again. My colleagues come to me when they need a problem solved as they know it's easy for me. I'm doing tech support for my fellow coders as well
Now after 6 years working in the field, I'm left with hatred for my job and I'm quite hopeless that my professional life will ever be satisfying.
And if you wanna now the funny part of the story, I've just started working on another game idea while knowing perfectly well that I won't have the time and energy to do it besides my day job.
The trick now is to discover the underlying problem. Maybe you don't like being a student. Maybe you don't like solving solved problems. Or maybe you really don't like slinging code. (It happens.) Each situation calls for a different remedy, although the first step (finish the degree) is common to all. Bonus points if you take an elective next term just because it sounds cool.
Problem (1) is, I'd guess, the most likely. Writing code can be a lot more satisfying when it's actually going to be put to a purpose. (2) would probably mean you need to go to grad school, although likely not in CS. If you don't know what you'd major in, go work for a few years. *Don't* go to grad school until you're pretty sure what you want to do, at least for the next five years.
(3) isn't a disaster, either. Your degree is certainly no less useful than a BA in art history, and art history majors get jobs (doing something other than art history, of course). Just demonstrating that you can play the game and jump the hoops means something to employers. If you don't know what you want to do yet, that takes all the pressure off: you're looking for a job, not a Career. Go join the Peace Corps, or Teach for America, or some other short-term job with better intangibles than pay. You can figure out later what you want to do when you grow up.
- Kevin
and use your skills to bring about total anarchy, then get caught and spend time in jail, after some time in jail, what you were doing before will seem like great fun in comparison.
oh, is that where Tomb Taider came from?
(GISboy ducks and runs)
If it is not on fire, it is a software problem.
Are you looking at different languages? I was revitalized when I discovered Ruby a few months age; I still write Java code for my day job, but all of my fun programming is in Ruby. Getting on an interesting project is also a good motivator. Are you interested in math subjects? There was a Slashdot artical on Tuesday about Ternary numbering systems; after reading those, I got interested in extending Ruby to support base-3. There isn't much practical use, but it is an interesting excersize.
If you're bored with repetitive programming details, you're probably using the wrong language. A good programming language will leave you free to solve problems, as opposed to requiring you to write the same code over and over to support the code you write to solve the problem. IE, how many times have you Java programmers written: "button.addListener( new ActionListener() { public void actionPerformed( ActionEvent event ) { ... } } );"? The same characters, over, and over, and over...
Many of the XP methodologies help you to avoid boredom, as well.
Primarily, though, for me the key to staying interested in programming is twofold: (1) be aware that you will get bored, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're a wash as a programmer -- you just need a new motivator, and (2) keep finding interesting projects, and find ways of making your mandatory project interesting.
Please excuse the spelling errors.
I'm taking the semester off, and I remember when I was in school the first 2 years i absolutely hated doing programming because all the projects they gave us to do were completely inane and idiotic. Granted, they taught us the basics, but I already knew the basics. Now, in my time off, i'm working on some home-brew projects and I couldn't be happier programming now.
College classes aren't meant to be fun. Whether the real world is fun or not depends on your point of view and/or your luck.
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
I experienced a similar feeling when I was a CS major. Gladly, it happened in semester 1, not semester 7.
CS as an academic subject has to be more mind numbing than Business, Math, and Art Appreciation combined. To add to your woes, apart from a select few CS departments, a CS education is woefully out of date before it's even half over. The only useful stuff you learn is in the first semester or 2... the rest is just implementation, which can just as easily be learned from RTFM.
The other catch is that most high-end CS jobs require
1. A degree
2. Experience.
CS degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on without any kind of experience to back it up. This is more true now than it was 5 years ago... Now companies are finding out the formal education in a specific field does not equate to actually have the skills needed to do well in the job.
People too often think of CS as an engineering field. If you're on the hardware side of it, then yes, it can be as exacting as an EE or ME. However, for most of us, the CS career will involve teaching non-technical people how to use their technology, and in some form or another programming stuff. The first can't be learned in a classroom, and there's no point in wasting money on the second.
This has often been by beef against "Certifications," especially the Microsoft kind. They teach you (for a premium) how to use a specific kind of software/system, but when that system goes out of date, you have to learn it all over again. Better to learn the fundamentals of CS and then go out and teach yourself anything else.
So do what I did! (well, it might be too late for you in particular, but for anyone a little earlier in their CS career.) Quit CS... switch to a major you enjoy. I picked English, and will probably go for a PoliSci or Philosophy degree next (I'm only two semesters from graduation.) Get a job on your campus doing something with computers... Consulting (you know, computer lab babysitting) is a great first step in, but of course, if you have experience, go for something better. One way or another, get a degree (companies like degrees, they 'prove' that you can get stuff accomplished, and are reasonably smart), get some experience, and DONT PANIC. CS is in such a state that their's no reason to go into hysterics (or utter apathy) over it... This isn't nursing or engineering... there *are* other ways into the field. And they're all more fun than your 15th programming class!
Of course, your other option is push the computer off the table and move to Montana and start writing manifestos to the New York Times. But, you saw what happened with the *last* one.
Maybe his problem isn't that he is burnt out, or in the wrong field, or depressed from overwork. Maybe his problem is with the state of development of computer science.
... and commercially viable.
Computer science is a new field. Depending on how you look at it, its only been around 60 to 200 years. Compare that to architecture, engineering, mathematics, psychology, or farming, which have been around for thousands of years.
What he needs to do is figure out what the problems with computer science are, then figure out how to make money fixing them.
At its core, computer science comes down to methodologies, operating systems, and programming languages. The methodologies are set in the latter two, so operating systems and/or programming languages are what need to be addressed.
Just because there are a thousand programming languages, and nearly as many operating systems, doesn't automatically mean the world doesn't need another one. However, it does mean for "another one" to be worthwhile, it's going to have to be damn good
The hardest part of turning any idea into a reality is to find those who have the same passion that you do. Otherwise, you just wind up like the other 500 people who responded to your question. Did Thomas Edison give up? Did RMS give up? The top of the pyramid is very small, but if you can apply your intelligence, and have relentless drive, you'll make it, and have a lot of fun at it too.
poeticreality13ATyah00.com (replace zeros with o's)
I got a degree in Electrical Engineering about 8 years ago. One of the things that kept me sane was to balance the technical with the non-technical. Take some liberal arts electives -- maybe even go for a double major or a minor. I got minors in both math and English.
Though I spent an extra semester in school to pick up the extra courses, I've never once regretted the time I spent in my extra English classes. In fact, I sometimes look back most fondly on those classes.
Also, my experience leaves me with little doubt that employers appreciate technical people who can code and write.
When one is tired of Counter-Strike, one is tired of life.
My Journal
don't worry, i too went to school for CS, yet i only lasted about a year and a half, when i started telling professers that they were wrong about a particular topic, namely C, and they would argue that i didn't know squat, and i'd ask them when the last time they did that, and they would reply, "a year or two ago", then they say, "well, when have you ever done that?" and i'd say "well, last night, with the help of some irc folk, and you're wrong!" so i quit. what i'm saying is, you've gotten this far, charish the degree as you'll be one of few that actually have it, then get a job, things will get more challenging and hopefully you'll be able to do something meaninful with it...
I know exactly how you feel about this as I too have had delusions of grandure since I was 12 (I've already graduated college now). I remember making games using Amiga Basic and thinking about how cool it was and in high school I begged and pleaded my teachers to take independent study courses so that I could learn something beyond the "hello world" programs in pascal.
... until I saw what they were throwing. I told myself, this is my freshmen year and that they are probably just bringing everyone up to what I thought was par in high school and I kepted with it.
Up until college I could never get enough about computers and I constantly pushed myself into making programs that do things that I've never done before. I kept pushing myself thinking that this would be the only way for me to make it to a credible computer science college.
Needless to say I made it to college with relative ease. My first year at college I was so excited and ready to absorb everything that they threw out at me
Then came my sophmore year of college. Well it was better then the remedial stuff they were teaching a year ago and the work they made us do was definately very time consuming but it was not really teaching me anything either. That is when I made my decision.
I went through my junior and senior years of college doing the bare minimum I needed to not fail any of my classes so I could graduate in time but I really spent most of my time sitting in on graduate level courses (and a couple of phd level courses) and unofficially started taking those classes. I did not care if I got credit for them or not, I was simply interested in learning more and being able to change the world like I had always dreamed about.
My GPA dropped down to 2.88 (from 3.91 my sophmore year) by the time I graduated but that didn't really matter because I knew more then most graduate students did and in those interviews I could easily prove how much potential I had to the point that out of 35 interviews only 2 people even asked me for a transcript.
The point of this is that college isn't going to be the solution you think it is because even the best universities are designed for the lowest common demoniator to some degree and it will eventually become dull and boring. Most graduate level courses will let you sit in on them if you talk to the professor politely and do not expect them to grade your stuff. They are usually more then happy to teach you like a regular student and in CS most of the non-theory courses you can grade yourself simply by determining if your program does what it is suppose to or not.
I have no regrets about sacrificing my highest honors potential for the invaluable amount of knowledge that I gained by taking classes that I got no recognition for. The advantage that I got in the real world because of it far exceeds anything that a high GPA could ever do.
First, since you're close to getting the CS degree, I recommend that you stay long enough to get that, even if you decide to take another career path. Having a tech degree is a Very Good Thing (tm), even in today's economy.
:) I -liked- it, too. Hacking code involves parts of the brain that had scarcely been touched in my happy little liberal-arts major.
Some suggestions:
* You may simply be 'burned out' after (I'm guessing) taking several CS semesters in a row. I love CS, and even I get tired of the homework, especially when trying to balance it with other time-consumers (read: work).
* Try seeing if you can get a paid internship at an IT company. This may require personal connections (friends, professors, classmates) with those who are already working in the field, but it's worth it. Actually working in the field will give you a sense of whether you want to be doing this 40+ hours a week.
In some ways, I'm the other way around from your own case -- I first got a degree in English Lit., with dreams (which I still have, by the way) of being a writer. Of course, such dreams will put bread on the table quickly for very, very few.
So, given that the Internet 'boom' was in full swing at this point, I had always been a rabid computer junkie, and that I was one of those people who's good at both English and math, I decided to try a semester or two and see if I had what it would take to be a Code Warrior.
Turns out I did.
The best part, in terms of quality-of-job, is that I'm now, finally, working with people who have similar interests and ways of thinking. (Read: geeks!) Even the majority of managers in my workplace have some technical background, and the difference between a techno-weenie manager and a non-techno-weenie manager is significant.
So, in terms of finding your 'dream job,' I suggest the following:
1) Look for a job where most people in that career have personalities and interests somewhat similar to your own.
2) Look for things that you really enjoy doing and see if they're marketable.
* Do you like problem-solving?
* Do you have something of a technology fetish?
* Are you someone who feels very comfortable in social situations and likes to talk all day? (When you have introverted techno-weenies, you need to have some good talkers on your staff too!)
* Do you like to write/write well?
* How do you feel about working at a desk/in a cubicle/in an office (for the really lucky) 8+ hours a day with comparatively little social contact or physical exercise?
You can probably add many more questions to this list.
* As one or more posters suggested earlier, if you feel it would be for you (definitely not for everyone), the military would be only too glad to add techno-geeks to its rolls.
Hope some of these suggestions help. Don't give up hope!
I'm a CIS major, and last semester, with the summer approaching, I dreaded finding yet another cubefarm job working in IT.
So I got a job at summer camp..and it was one of the best experiences of my entire life. I learned to appreciate computers and IT, made a difference in kid's lives, and learned VB in and out, since I worked with it everyday. The best part is that I wasn't chained to a computer, I had other responsibilities as well, so I got the perfect dosage of sun, water, and code. Since I've returned home, I've felt energized, I've been doing much better in school, and am easily finding the motivation to start new projects.
My point is that you don't have to fully detach from CS to recharge. Think a little differently, explore seemingly outrageous options, because when you see a kid get excited because of something you taught him, you'll be hooked again.
Macs as a fetish property
I can remember going to CS classes and being bored to tears. The work was challenging but coding for academic senarios was just no fun. As I took more and more CS classes I began to wonder if a career in CS really really for me. At the time I didn't consider problem solving fun. It was more of a way to just get grades. Everything changed for me when I got my first coding job. I found out that I loved to code and solve problems. Maybe it was because I now had a family to support, or because my co-workers were cool and that made it a fun place to work. I still haven't finished school (became a daddy at the end of my 4 semester). But over the years I've witnessed how different the business and academic worlds are in relation to CS. For me, the fun isn't tryin' to write smaller, faster algorithms ( although it's part of the job ), it's solving real business problems that'll help the company and in turn hopefully keep me employed. This make any sense to anyone??
I totally agree with you. CS 1.3 really, really sucks. I know a lot of people who quit outright and a few that still play but can't even finish a round anymore. My suggestion is to revert back to CS 1.1 or even perhaps one of the betas and find a server still running that version play there. CS 1.3 doesn't mean the end of CS for you! Stick with CS and you may, one day, reap the fruits of its bounty!
Why do people always think I don't read the articles before I post?
I dropped out of school a month and a half after my first semester started. I thought it might be at least a *bit* better than high school, but I was just as depressed and disgusted with education as I was in high school. Right now I'm working at a boring job doing web monkeying, but I'm making enough money to support myself, and I'm not depressed. In a couple of years I'm probably going to move near some of my friends and start a consulting business with the software we write.
Since you're already almost out of school, you'll be in a much better position than I am, but I know I'll be having fun; how about you? Whatever you do, find a job you *want* to do. You're still in school, and CS education at school sucks, don't let it make you think your life after school will suck.
</rant>
Chris Armstrong
If you like to develop new things and get
frustrated because its already developed..!
don't be..just forget about everything and start
making things as of they are not invented before.
Believe me its even fun to reinvent the wheel..!
I had the same problem. I went to Nevada and spent a weekend getting as much poontang as I could afford, with no strings attached. When I came back I was ready to get back to work.
--
Mabelode the Faceless
Here's my advice, after four years of degree and one year of working:
l Hopefully I can get them in time so I can work on the rendering for LOTR - The Return of the King. /me dreams on)
For God's sake, do something that interests you. Because when you're programming fulltime, you can be sure as hell you're not going to have anything left mentally to work on your own projects, be it your own RPG implementation or nifty opengl winamp plugin or whatever.
I am slowly coming to terms with this myself. My creative output so far has mainly involved doing something on computers - programming little graphics things (I'd call them demos but they're not that good) or mucking around with music. Now I come home after battling with Oracle PL/SQL, Forms and Reports all day and look at the hunk of machinary on my desk that I've put so much money into. It's primary use is now ICQ with a bit of counterstrike thrown in occasionally. Now and then I try to do some more coding on my winamp plugin: I'll do a couple of lines of code then give up and do something else. I look back at my old coding projects, the ones where I'd stay up all night and take it from idea to fully working code in a night. I simply cant do that anymore because work has left me mentally drained.
My point is, unless you're a supergeek who can code 100 hours a week, you wont be able to do both work coding and "recreational" coding. If your primary creative outlet is your coding, then look at taking up something else, like painting or sculpture or ceramics. Of course the other way is to find a job that really interests you - this is what I'm trying to do at the moment. (I think I need more qualifications for Weta Digital http://www.wetafx.co.nz/WetaLtd-RecruitingFAQ.htm
My last bit of semi-useless advice: if you dont think programming for a living is right for you, DONT do it. Even if you think you want to program for a job, think long and hard about what it means. Or you could lose your sanity pretty damn quick.
After 10 years spent in the bowels of large buildings staring at computer screens, I decided to get out and see the world. When I resurfaced I became a HS Computer Science teacher. One piece of advice I always give my seniors is Major in something other than CS, but make CS a strong minor or even double major. Most kids don't take the advice and consequently suffer. Those that do come back and tell me how important it has been for them to have a content area in which they can apply their computer skills. They are happier _and_ have better-developed careers.
Count has a point. Before I started getting into programming, I was a musician. Guess what? That meant years of dead-end jobs waiting tables, delivering pizzas, you name it, just about every shit job in the book...all for the opportunity to get screwed at every turn by unscrupulous club owners, baited-and-switched by "record companies", and just generally living hand-to-mouth.
I finally got sick of it, so I went back to school and learned a real skill that pays real money.
Sure, CS/IT/Whatever might not be the most glamorous career out there, but guess what? You get to make *way* above average money to sit on your ass most of the day, and you don't have to depend on the whims of drunken moronic assholes for your livelihood. Well, you shouldn't, anyway. If you do, get another job NOW.
The bottom line is - quit your bitching and be thankful that you are able to do this kind of work.
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
Not everyone with a degree in CS ends up writing code. I know lots of guys I grudated with that can't stand the tediousness of coding. Many of them chose to work at larger software houses desigining software or doing quality assurance. There's also working in IT doing systems administration. I'm not saying this stuff maybe for you, but remember a degree in Computer Science is not a degree in programming (at least isn't supposed to be, i guess it depends on the college you go to)
Oh, wait, you're not talking about Counter-Strike, are you? Sorry ;-)
"Killing people is the only thing that you'll ever find really fun and not get bored of (well, that and sex)."
Or you could try to be a civilized being and think about the consequences of what you do. I'd rather die a thousand death rather than work on weapons (or related military stuff). At least when I'm bored at work, I can find comfort in the idea that I'm not harming anyone.
I read the headline and thought it meant Counter Strike
I *knew* I wasn't the only person that this ever happened to. Subtitute the word "biology" for every occurance of "CS" in the first post, and that would pretty much be me. First off, it's my firm belief that the entire University system has the capability to suck the life and love out of any subject; hence, I'm rather loathe to ever go back....so here's my suggestion. 1) Don't do grad school. I've been where you are..it would kill you. 2) Tough it out and get the degree you're almost finished with. Even if you're working in another field, the piece of paper will do you good, and prove that you can finish something you start. If you have an overage of credits, you might be able to rearrange them and be able to get a degree *now* (I couldn't face my classes anymore, and was getting a double major - microbiology and aquatic toxicology - so I had plenty.) Check your options. (BTW, The most liberating this I ever did was blow off my entire last semester of classes. Man, that felt good.) 2) Examine what you're doing for fun...aside from depression and heavy drinking, that is. I always wondered why I was getting a degree in Biology, yet all my friends were in Communications and Art. I was also skipping classes so I could work on setting up a 'zine with a roomate. *DING!* Hey, if I'm having fun doing this, maybe I should make it a job! After that, you have to figure out the best path to doing that for a job. Chances are, if you're doing it now, there's a good chance that you can find someone to pay you to do it...it may take some time, but after the hell that is college burnout, anything is more fun.
uhh, yeah so what do I do now?
i'm working on the rock star thing...
CS isn't fun? Didn't you see Swordfish?
I'd love a line of work where I can get blown under the table and make a small fortune based on sixty seconds of demonstration.
You gonna date this twinkie-suckin bit-pusher? I don't think so. What this guy needs to realize is that this is as good as it gets. Send him a "Slashdot" pocket protector and lets move on. Face it kid, WE are your only friends.
I want to be alone with the sandwich
I've got two quarters left before getting my CS degree and I am finding myself in the same boat... I've recently taken to heavy drinking. You'd be surprised how much more tolerable those CS lectures are when you're with your friends Jack Daniels, Jim Beam, and Mickey.
Be warned: Jack's handwriting sucks, so don't let him take your lecture notes.
If it makes you feel any better I learned nothing at college either about CS ( I did electronics ) & learned to program from an ex plumber with no formal qualification.
Now working on linux for s/390
Homer Simpson once said a quote similar to this:
"Americans don't strike, they just go in and do their job half-assed!"
Just keep chanting that mantra and cash your paychecks...
"If you know enough to log on to the Internet and you're not make $67,000/yr, what are you waiting for?"
Sorry, this goofy ad came on the radio just as I was reading your post.
Why don't you try a co-op'ing for a semester? You'll get a little real world experience, get to apply some of what you've learned, and realize that there are still some very cool problems to work on. It will give you a short break from school and the experience will help you get a job when you get out.
It helped me a lot.
Awwww... Poor baby. No fun.
What a load of whining self-centered bullshit. You are going to graduate in a few months with a valuable University degree. About 80% of the rest of the world would love to have your problems. Sounds like your real problem is that it doesn't look like an easy path to fame and fortune any more.
If you can't cut it, go do something else because you will be competing with people that do love it, or who are hungry for success. In either case, you don't stand a chance.
If you want a nice life handed to you on a plate, then get prozac. You won't get the nice life, but it won't bother you as much
I bet your life revolves around computers right now, doesn't it? You go to school and are saturated by computers and CS work. You go home and you're once again saturated with computers and CS homework. Hey, everyone burns out sooner or later. The key to keeping your interest in CS is to find a hobby that has nothing to do with your love for computers. Seriously.
Monotony can be mind-numbing, and can add on more than a few pounds to your already growing arse -- we call that "programmer's arse" (remember, a can of pop has 170 useless calories that go straight to your rear).
So, go out and do something. Take a break for cryin' out loud! Winter is coming shortly up here in the midwest, and I'm biting at the reigns to go cross-country skiing. In the mean time, it's rollerblades, walks, or learning how to play guitar.
I may be a geek, but I'm not a 24/7/365 keyboard-slave!
assert(expired(knowledge));
Here is how you can play GodMode(C):
:) Now, it's about time to convince the management to convert the whole company to Linux (or anything else). Done? Good. Move on. Now try to convince them to move back. Managed? Excellent! Now, how about convincing them, that don't need computers at all? Still want more? Make them beleive that they need the top-of-technology-state-of-the-art-machines. Now try to find those :) I can go on for ever. Till the Big Boss level where you have to push them to give everything to charity.
:)
Get a job with b big company. The bigger - the better. Make your way to the top of IT department. That was the Intro level
Ok, now I know that you are a real Bachelor. It's time for multiplayer GodMode - find guys like you and you will be entertained for a long time
Leonid Mamtchenkov
I've been working on computers and doing programming since I was a little kid. I've been through several phases where I didn't want to touch a computer at all, some of which lasted several years.
I started college as a Political Science major, then switched to Comp Sci, then got bored, then got back into it again.
It's a difficult and somewhat soul-less profession. You have to create the rationale for caring about your work. For some people it's money, for some it's bragging rights, for some it's the love of creation and the beauty of design. You have to appreciate your own work in a way that few people will ever be able to see.
The difference between college and career though is that you actually _do_ something. Don't give up on the idea that you could actually be excited about this stuff again, and don't lose what knowledge you have because it may be useful doing something else if that suits you.
...or lots of beer.
I want to be alone with the sandwich
I felt this way in my sophomore and junior years at a top-ranked university.
The projects that CS majors do in school are unrepresentative of what goes on the workforce. Real-world groups are larger. Projects can be so huge and span so many years that few have even a faint notion of their likely outcome. In short, if you enjoyed CS before college, it is likely that you will enjoy it again.
I agree with those who suggest getting a dual degree. If you are as I was, the last thing you want is to do is to stay in school for two more years.
However, life is much, much harder when you are working than when in school. And if you think you won't enjoy CS as you once did, life could be hell. With a second degree in a field you find stimulating while in school, you can bet it will satisfy you once you move on to real work.
There's been a sense of hopelessness in the world for quite some time. The sense is that there is a 'great divide' between the haves and the have nots. The Internet and all its dot coms was looked upon as a savior, a hope that the playing field might level a bit. It didn't happen and that made things even worse. Couple this with all that's been going on since September, and many feel really bleak and depressed. I saw a story on the news last week that said use of antidepressants now is over double what it was in August.
It's almost as if a 'dark cloud' has settled over the world. People are going through the (day to day) motions but no one is really enjoying themselves any more. No one's really happy.
I wish I had the answers to fix this; I think that only time will. Also, the greedy (read:rich) need to become less greedy and more charitable.
I realize that this runs contrary to capitalism but I think that unrestrained capitalism is partly to blame for our funk. Maybe it's time that the pendulum swung back to the middle instead of between the two extremes of pure capitalism and pure socialism.
This happened to me as well half way through my university degree. I was completely fed up and couldn't bear the thought of 2 more years.
I took a break, did some voluntary work, studied a bit of philosophy and other non-computing subjects that were of interest, and generally did a lot of hanging around.
I then changed university to finish off my computing degree. Now I'm in a software development job and am loving it more than ever... Of course you might find during your break that there are other things you want to do instead - give your self the chance to find out!
From what I've seen, the degree is the middle.
You can get your foot in the door without a degree, if you have experience. You can be the head honcho without a degree, just start your own company. Having a degree will let you rise from peon to management within an existing structure, but it will never let you become the CEO as long as you're working for someone else.
My opinion, like it matters: I think this guy has some good old fashioned burnout going on. He should probably take a semester off, and maybe do an internship at a company that will let him use what he's learned. That's the only way he'll ever know if he'll enjoy it for life. Personally, I hated school, and didn't finish, but with my goals in life, I don't HAVE to unless I end up not achieving them.
I could carry just enough outside work to make teaching pay off. (Errmm... Break even.) But I refuse to get a teaching cert. Yes, my wife has one, and yes, teaching special ed. might require that. But I can't see how teaching HS chem, business, or computers needs a teaching cert. That's problem one.
Problem two is administration. In many school districts, the principals are covered by the same unions as teachers. This leads to a problem of agency: who does the union represent, management, or workers? Now, this isn't the big issue. Rather, it is what it leads to: for every bad teacher, there is a principal (and often a school board) supporting the incompetency. And from my experience (via my wife and several friends who teach) it is not mere support, but demands of incompetency. School boards have developed guidelines and standards that must be adhered to to the letter. Teachers are hamstrung. After a while, they cease to care.
So, rather than become a rant on the profession, I will round up. Teaching can be bad. Very bad. OTOH, if you are in it for the short term, it can be very rewarding. You can be a maverick. You can reach kids, and learn 'em sumthin. And when they ride you out of town on a rail, you'll know that you did something good.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
I'm surprised no one gave this guy a little better advice.
Consider getting a Myers-Briggs personality typing test. It suggests which careers you might do best in. Do some research. Visit a business or two. Use your BA as a spring board into a masters program in the right field.
I wish people did this before college. You will be spending a huge percentage of your life doing something for a living. Don't let it be something you hate.
=brian
WorldForge Open Source Project
I just offered my meager talents to the project. 'Course, I'm just beginning my run at a CS degree, at the tender age of 32.
And open source doesn't pay real well either, does it... Oh well, just a thought...
(tig)
Ignorance and prejudice and fear
Walk hand in hand
While it's a noble goal, doing something because you think it will radically change the world overnight is foolish. No wonder you're burned out.
It sounds to me that you might not dislike CS as much as you dislike academia, or perhaps the fake nature of many school tasks. University and College do many things, but one of the things they do repeatedly is re-invent the wheel. There are some valid reasons for this, but it does get rather stale when you realize you're treading the same path 10K other people before you did. It's no fun to solve problems to which the answers are known.
I had a friend that did not so hot in school, not on account of any smarts problem - he's quite sharp - but a motivational one. Once he hit the job market, he became energized - real problems, real challenges, real solutions. He's now a PHB (trying not to forget all he learned in engineering) at a large Ottawa software company (Hi Deane!).
Point I'm making here is if I judged my current field (software development) by the worst jobs in it (wrote programming in awful languages) or by what I got clubbed with at University and College, I'd have never entered it. But the truth is, I knew there had to be more. But I had to get into the real world and hit some real challenges - pick your jobs carefully and this happens.
So far I have:
Learned wireless, client-server, the development cycle, and security while working on public safety software for Canada's major national police body. Learned a lot about communications protocols, TCP/IP, mainframes and UNIX systems.
Learned something about 3D, state patterns, and CASE tools as well as a bunch about air navigation working on a project for the CF Air Navigation School. Big C++ project using code framework generation by Rose.
Learned more wireless, a bit of Java, some ASP, some more C++, WAV files and streaming Internet audio, cellular gateways, etc. while doing some work for cellular portal technology companies out of Boston.
Learned more Java, game programming, a lot about virtual environments, etc. working in my current job for a Quebec multimedia company doing 3D immersive world technologies for the Internet.
Learned a lot of TCP/IP and many application layer protocols while teaching TCP/IP network programming at our local college.
All of this in 6.5 years after work. I can't imagine more challenge, excitement (sometimes stress), more satisfaction in design and implemenation of real solutions and not-done-before problems, and I got paid fairly well along the way. Oh, and I met a damn fine bunch of people.
Don't give up on the field. Make a point to find out what it _really_ holds by talking to some people _in_ the field. Go to computer tradeshows and talk to the staffers. Go visit any local computer companies.
There is more under heaven and earth than NP completeness, re-implementing the linked list, or figuring out yacc and lex.
Tomb.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
It seems like in the 80s/90s people had forgotten there's a business cycle. Yeah, the downturn in IT dwarfs the general recession we are currently in. But if you'll remember back to that one econ class (I hope) you took, a cycle means downs and then ups (rinse lather repeat).
A lot of people were fooled into thinking there were only ups in IT. Don't let yourself get fooled now into thinking that there are only downs. This too shall pass.
(and in the next up cycle, remember what can happen to stock options!) bk425
I find this message to be a very true one in my world as well. I'm a junior MIS/CS major right now. My plans have always been, and are still, to go out and have fun while never working a single day in my life. In short...I wanna be like Woz. That seems to be what you're getting at as well and I think its long past due that we make ourselves noticed. The revolution doesn't just happen. We have to make it happen. I'm currently trying to rally myself into this mode with a couple of friends that I attend school with and I think its beginning to click. We need a new version of the homebrew club. Someone to come up with the next cool toy, and it doesn't look like anyone's gonna do it for us. I say count me in and lets get to the good stuff...
Don't program a single line outside of class necessity for at least a month. Find something else that interests you (a hobby, etc.) and develop that during the down time. Then, after having taken a sabbatical from programming, your mind will be relaxed and you're next exciting programming challenge will just be apparent.
...and I've had quite a few over the last 20 years. Some have been really cool, like when I developed an Arabic word-processor and got to attend a computer show in Dubai. Others, like porting old (really OLD) Unix tools to MSDOS and spending half the day in meetings arguing about trivial bits of code, weren't so good.
One of the nice things about high-tech is that nobody cares if you change jobs every couple of years. That said, maybe I should take my own advice...
Most of the replies I read here all have quite a bit of truth to them. You should immediately find something else that you enjoy doing better. But good luck. It is very rare that anybody can say "I want to do this now; and I'm going to enjoy it for the rest of my life". This is rare because You can never know all the caveats of your decision until its too late. And when you are first looking for something you encounter mostly the good and desirable aspects of that environment. The tedium and abrasive qualities either become known later or they slowly become unbearable with time. Its clear that you have come to a point in your life where you realize that most of what you thought you knew was either false or miniscule compared to what is to be known. Well, I've got another jolt for you. You still don't know anything. (Neither do I; though probably more than you ;-) I would agree with those that suggested graduate school. It makes a huge difference in both knowledge and abilities. Unlike the original posters of this topic I'm living proof that you can get a doctorate from a near-ivy league school for free. If you want to then check into reasearch assitantships and teaching assistant ships. At most high level schools these positions will pay a pitiful stipend but will also a) pay for your tuition, and b) provide you with the necessary exposure to find your thesis topic and introduce you to the real players in the field. Picking your research department and advisor well is a key element.
But even that will only get you so far. Myself... Doctorate in Computer Science. Unfortunately what I've come to realize lately that, like you, it is a thankless career where people use you as a tool and there is very little satisfaction to be had from enployment in this field. So what do a lot of us do? We apply our abilities, training and talent outside of our employment and work on projects that others find useful and appreciative of. I believe this is at the heart of why OpenSource is so successful with minimum funding and minimum corporate planning or management. [Though we do tons of planning and management ourselves to accomplish the task.] The bottom line is we don't get paid in monetary compensation; we get paid in terms of accomplishment and appreciation. Linus didn't make zillions of dollars on what started out as a small project. But he will never have to go hungry and he will never have to eat alone. Anywhere in the world I'm sure a line would form to spend lunch with him; I certainly would! Most of us aren't that noticable but the point is that I think many of us take what we have and apply it to interests outside of our jobs and we harvest satisfaction in our lives from that instead of trying to extract it from our employment.
One of my difficulties is that what was often incorrect for ourselves earlier in life become correct or desirable later (and vice-versa).
I had no interest in biology when I was in high school. I loathed the thought of having to dissect animals in biology class and I avoided it all entirely. Almost twenty years later I find that I'm totally fascinated by it now. In fact one of the most interesting things to me now is surgery. So I'm going through life as a CS nerd. I make some money and I pay the bills. But I'm always on the look out for opportunities to pursue my other interests. So if UCLA medical school ever needs to hire a network engineer I'll be in line. ;-)
Boil this all down and I think it comes out to: You won't entirely like anything that you do. Accept the positive aspects of what you already have. Bear and ignore the negative aspects when possible. Take advantage of new opportunities in order to fill any needs not already met. But most importantly I think you need to keep a clear perspective on what you like, don't like, want, need and don't need. Otherwise it is very, very difficult to spot the new opportunities. I've been very disconnected from this and it has trapped me into enduring the same situations for the past two decades. Hopefully, this might help you out early enough to make a real difference.
I will never live for sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
I would recommend looking at nearby Universities for similar programs. Different schools may focus on different aspects of CS and therefore be more interesting to you. For example, I was attending college as an Applied Math major, which there was a mixture of heavy math (passed DiffEq sophomore year and still had over 30 math credits to go) and computer science. I started getting bored with the math portion, so I tranferred to a nearby college and went with a straight CS major. Most of my credits x-ferred too. Even finding a program that works in a different language (Java as opposed to C++) could help.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. --Winston Churchill
I can sympathize. I'm in the AF right now (only 3 years, though) and am taking all the damn classes I can so that when (or if, it's loooking) I get out, I have less to do when I go for my full CS degree.
Of course my father berates me for this decision (stability and all that), but I don't think he or anyone else quite understands my scenario. I've been in love with computers all my life and only joined the military for the education benefits.
It's hard right now, being stuck in a boring, tedious, and maddening job away from my friends, familiy, and fiance, but hey. I need to do this.
Is burnout a work related injury? Can you get reimbursed if you can prove you have it?
M@
Krispy Cream is people
My advice to you is to finish your degree and then use it to help you see the world. I come from the other side of the fence. I had an english degree and got into computers to make ends meet. Unfortunantly, it wasn't as much fun in the end as it was in the begining. I finally decided to drop everything and move into a little solar powered cabin in the woods for awhile and clear my head.
Now I follow a pattern of freelancing whatever, wherever and then taking some of the profits on vacation with me for extended periods. Some times I love the work I'm doing and sometimes I hate it, but I always know I have a cool trip waiting for me after a few months of work.
I have also noticed that I don't mind some of the drudgery of working indoors after freezing my ass off in some god forsaken place for a couple months in the name of adventure. Get a tent and a laptop and seen the world.
I have hit points where I felt like that. The summer job testing for Y2k compliance (searching db and VB code for small dates for 3 months) was enough to give me the screaming horrors. Some of my classes drove me to the point of staggering boredom and homicidal fantasies. At times the enjoyment seemed entirely dead.
But that was the jobs and the classes not CS. Now that I am done with them and am doing interesting work the enjoyment is back. The trick was getting away from the toy problems and being able to focus on a real project not replicating something from a book.
Before you drop out or lose your mind think back. If you once enjoyed some part of CS and you can still summon up some interest in it then it is probably school. Senior year is always stressful and toy problems and half-formed theory are rarely satisfying to someone who wants to solve technical problems and really work.
If after thinking about it you think that it is CS and not school then go find what thrills you before you end up bitter cranky and living the Dilbert life. Money is never a good reason to do anything because, bottom line, it can't compensate for totally hating your job. And, unless you like your job you will never do any good at it.
If you are sure that it is school and not CS then figure out what part of CS you like, go and do it and accept that shitty courses happen and every job no matter how ideal has its downside.
Best of Luck. Irvu
i found myself in a similar situation about two years ago. all stoked up on the computer industry i went into cs. by the end of the second semester i had had it. i didnt want to learn anymore code, i didnt want to learn about new technologies i didnt want to go to class, i didnt want to do anything but sit in my room and suck up bandwidth on napster. needless to say i failed out of school. the absolute boredom and by the bookness of the classroom killed me. i learned more when i was sitting home staying up all night trawling the web and reading books on my own then when i was in school.
but i still love computers, even with a bad taste in my mouth.
so i went backwards and looked at what had made it so fun in the beginning, and easy enough to answer it was sitting in my room absorbing info and learning more about anything that i came across. unfortunately im older now and sitting in your room doesnt pay the damn bills. so i went back to something that hadnt soured yet, hardware. i had left hardware to do coding cause there was more money and that was my biggest mistake. so now im back in hardware, working on broadcast equipment for sony, and im happy.
--but i still dont get to spend enough time locked up in my room.
"associate with men of good qualilty if you esteem your own reputation; for it is far better to be alone than in bad com
Start drinking before/during/after class . . works for me! You'd be impressed how funny binary trees can be some days!
--
http://www.dennistighe.com
is what Univarsity and College are all about. And one of the things you learn, is what you like and don't like.
-... ---
Heh. Whereas all of us poor saps who worked hard in undergrad might as well have joined a leper colony...
So hang in there, get the degree, then take some time off to get your mind right!
Two options:
(1) Look at graduate degrees where you can leverage CS without being a CS type. A CS degree is useful in many areas. Law for one - imagine being a really competent patent attorney. Despite the lawyer jokes, there are good people out there. Same with an MBA. Having an understanding of technology would make you invaluable in marketing, finance, or general management. Maybe you could be an investment analyst covering high-tech companies. Just because you started out in CS doesn't mean you have to either be a programmer or throw it completely out. (2) Does your school have a career counseling center? Maybe is some professional perfectly suited for you that you haven't even thought of yet. Do the standardized test thing, find out what jobs people with your skills and personality tend to do well in. Don't take these results as gospel, but do mull them over.
Let's see... Instead of CS, I'll call it programming. Yeah yeah, there's all kinds of extra BS involved in programming, but ignore that for a moment. Programming sucks for me because of the direction in which the software world is moving: towards bloated, bulky, inefficient crap. True, there is some good programming out there. But most is crap.
The following might look like a flame, but it's not intended that way. This is just my thoughts, off the top of my head.
This starts with avoiding perfectly acceptable programming techniques just because you don't understand them. Give me one good reason that I should write some inefficient garbage instead of using a single, elegant goto. I'm not talking about jumping into the middle of loops either. Why shouldn't I mix enums and ints, in cases where it makes sense and when they are the same size? (What? Because I might assign a `nonexistant' value to an enum? Nonsense: haven't you ever heard of `default:' cases? To the computer, it's just an `int' anyway. If you know what you're doing, you CAN safely mix--if your compiler still lets you.)
The problem continues in the languages we use. That's why many skilled programmers and myself prefer C over C++. (I don't claim to be skilled--my programs speak for themselves.) For example, give me a good reason that in a C++ program, I should use slowcomotion `exception handling' code instead of just checking for NULL after performing a `new'. (This is now part of the standard, so you're left with no choice unless your compiler gives you one.) Why shouldn't I make up my own error handling algorithm? What if the program I'm writing won't work well with the ugly solution of try...throw...catch? C++ results in such ridiculous programs that are hard to write, hard to fix and hard to improve. How come there's no `resize' operator in C++ to counterpart `realloc()'? Why shouldn't you, in a copy constructor, `memcpy(this, a, sizeof(*this)) when `this' and `a' point to objects of the same class? Why is it, instead, considered good practice to manually assign each member of `a' to each member of `this'? All arguments about inheritance and polymorphism are irrelevant. The time you would have spent coding an elegant solution in C was instead spent writing 80 billion lines of class declarations in C++. Inappropriate use of C++ results in very mysterious bugs. There is no appropriate way to apply C++.
Forgive me if I sound pissed. It's because I am. Successful and effective programming is a skill, difficult to obtain. Nowadays, though, that skill is being replaced by crap. Maybe I just woke up depressed this morning (like wonderless probably did). Or maybe I'm getting increasingly upset from everything I'm constantly seeing around me. Who knows. The fact is, many of today's programming techniques are sadly in need of help.
Oh well.
I have traveled this road and it is indeed troubling. It is more than just a question of whether on not traveling the path is the goal, as opposed to finding a destination.
As I sit here pounding down a roast beast sub and inhaling some diet cola, I look into the faces of my wife and children taped up to the walls of my cubicle. They are not the driving force of why I write code, day in and day out. Instead they are my solace, that piece of me that my master (employer) can never touch. I know how "Orwellian" this may sound but for me it is A Truth.
I have found that training/education merely provides us with a toolset that we carry with us on our next adventure down the path. We may not always need those tools for the next "job" but it's good to know that they are the best tools we could assemble.
Find your own way and try not to leave too much unfinished business in your wake.
E
"Where ever you go, There you are!"
Buckaroo Bonzai, 1985
Big Ed Makeing the world safe for no apparent reason!
As a professional developer, I can tell you that you're in a totally different world. Books and lectures suck. And they have nothing to do with IT. You're dealing with logic and theory. Out here we deal with business needs and specific technologies. I think you'll find the fun comes back when you're given a highly abstracted problem, and have to figure out how to make it work. Customers don't give a flippin fudge about arrays, structs, and pointers. They want systems that work for them. You use your creativity and energy to get the job done - in a subjective manner. Even though we're dealing with objectives here (it either works or it doesn't!), how you get it done is up to you - your creative energy, desire, and talent. Think of it like boot camp - you go through a short period of time that really sucks. If you can't handle it, you get out. If you suck it up, you make it through and then get to the fun stuff. In short: don't let your negative experience with academia dissuade you - wait until you start doing "real" programming.
The best thing about a boolean is even if you are wrong, you are only off by a bit.
Lemme be clear: I tossed in humor to make the bitter pill easier to swallow. I'm somewhat good at that.
I was very, very serious about the possibility of depression.
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
-Did you ever have to take that Kuder Preference test in high school?
-Sure, it said I was going to be a fire watcher. What are you supposed to be?
-An underachiever.
-...You take drugs, Danny?
-Every day.
-Good. So whats the problem?
You can't take the sky from me...
See the world! Get away from your computer.
Most of us, in the working world, rarely continue on the path we started in university.
My major was 'Rural Sociology', which , aside from being the source of endless cow jokes, was not very useful, unless I continued to the phd level.
These days I write code for a non-profit... the only real link between my major and my career is a general social bend.
What you learn best in undergraduate, aside from the importance of regular sex, is how to sharpen your mind. Your brain is a lot more critical, and analytical, after 4 years of CS - and if you end up as a playwright, your esoteric kernal hacking skills may still come in handy.
I would suggest to finish up, go backpacking in Europe, and find some other job for a while. Preferably a grunt job. Working in a cafe for 6 months would certainly get you psyched to write some code, after seeing the horribly designed UI's for cash registers.
Practical apps, too, are a lot more fun than the
standard textbook world.
lambda = h/p
I wish you the best of luck in finding happiness in coding again. In the end, that's all that matters.
Hey, you try to find an open nick these days!
You can do something completely different and drop CS altogether, or you can try to find something else that you can fuse into your CS major and make it interesting again... for my part, I learned Chinese and Computer Science... so my PhD work will be on fusing the two into two subject that I love.
Humorless sig goes here.
Welcome to the real world. Some of us got into CS because we love it, and there was no guarantee of a job, let alone a high paying job after school. And I graduated college in '93. Maybe I am a little bitter because there was such an explosion in the CS market after I graduated, and I had to work my way up to my current salary. But you know what? I have never had to take a pay cut, because I have *experience* now. Maybe in the future I will, who knows.
My guess is that you don't really love CS, or you wouldn't be questioning yourself. Were you just doing it for the money? The status? Because computers are now "cool"? I remember when being a geek was a BAD thing. The real people who love CS will be doing it when the market is low, like now, and won't be in it just for the money.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Get a temp job flipping burgers, or paving roads. It will be a refreshing change for about a week, then you'll look forward to your CS carear again. Remember, we work to get money to do the things we really want to do. That's wny it's called "work".
-Skip =================================================
You may be suffering from depression. Certainly our recent times can sap the enthusiasm out an most everything. Take advantage of student health while you can. You also may have discovered that just about every profession, or even rationality in general, has limits in what it can provide to you emotionally, especially in terms of The Big Questions in life. I had such a realization in my early 20s; caused me to drop out of my PhD program and grad school altogether.
move back in with your parents you whiny little bitch.
If you find that you dislike your field now, in five years you will want to kill yourself. Or change professions. The only problem is that now you have a wife and child(ren). You've (and maybe more imporatantly, they've) gotten used to making, say, $60,000 a year. You've discovered that you really like making stained glass or working on classic cars or whatever, but entry level jobs pay $25k a year in that field. So you keep doing what you're doing and hope for an early heart attack.
My guess is that the people who said life is too short to do something you don't love most eloquently are people who have discovered this the hard way.
Find something you're passionate about. No need for further college. College is only a half-way house for real life. Good luck.
bong hits wait..thats two words.
It's not unusual to find that the rigidity of a college curriculum (or later, the rigidity of your job duties) boring.
I think it's important to realize that there are few jobs that will give you the opportunity to "follow your dreams".
I love high-tech - it's always fascinated me and I have a passion for it. However, I have a high-tech job that I hate. The constraints of my job prevent me from doing anything particularly creative or challenging. I'm here because it's a high-tech job, and I'm lucky to have one in this economy, but I'm certainly not doing what I love.
What I've found is that I'm more compelled than ever to pursue, on my own time, those areas of technology that have always driven me. Maybe one day I can take the skills I've cultivated on my own and apply them to a position that is more to my liking, but regardless of future opportunities, it is from my own personal projects that I gain the most satisfaction.
Don't let bad classes or a bad economy shape your dreams, let them shape only how you approach the attainment of your dreams.
I don't want to be stuck in the computer industry for the rest of my life (can you say: Middle management, and other un-fun things when you get old?).
What about University politics and fighting for grants when you are an old archeologist? Or am I wrong about old archeologists?
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
this sounds to me like a case of clinical depression. it's a reality for millions of americans. BUT, there is hope.
ask your doctor about prescription welbutrin(tm)..
First and foremost, if you once had the "umph!" to do what you love, then get it back? How you ask!? (oh yah, you did...) Find a challenge, you're flipping through "off by one" bugs and getting rid of them, then maybe you need more of a challenge. Don't expect the University to give you those challenges, go out and find them yourself. What is it about technology that you like, or should I ask what -did- you like? I like Security, I'm a paranoid asshole by nature, computer geek by trade, being trained as a Volunteer EMS (Fire Fighter / Paramedic) and Private Investigator as a hobby. Honestly, I can't stand computers, but it allows me to do what I really like, security.
My recommendation is to find out what it is that you REALLY enjoy, don't leave school, and enjoy your summer break - but make sure you come back. If you find that what you are doing bores you, then look for new challenges. I used to want to do nothing but sit at a console, pour through i86ASM and C looking for flaws and documenting them (it was like being a private investigator, but smaller) or respond to 3AM calls when some executive is freaking out because some skr1pt kidddie defaced his website to show a picture of his bare ass screwing a woman that wasn't his wife then send that picture off to allemp@host, however that even got boring after a while.
Starting in the spring, my company is going to start sending me to school, and the want me to get a CS. However I know that a CS is not going to help me that much in my career, and it is probably going to bore the living shit out of me. So, I'll toss in some psychology/sociology classes, some extra writing classes, maybe some chemistry, hell - maybe some basket weaving and cross stitching! At least I'll be in school doing something with the possibility of learning more.
To finish my ramble, when you start getting good at what you do, you reach a plateau. It's when you get to that plateau, that you have to look for the next mountain range and keep climbing. Each time, you find a higher moutain.
JUST STAY IN SCHOOL DAMN IT.
-SC
I cannot confirm nor deny the allegation or allegations you may or may not have just made
11 years ago I was in a similar position. I was a senior in CS, and really bored with the curriculum, though I was a good programmer. In last semester I took a software engineering class where we spent all our time writing specs, and none writing code, and a theory of programming languages class, with no programming. What a drag.
What did I do? I found a job outside of school that was fun.
First, I spent a few months with a startup, ultimately with nothing to show for it but 1000 worthless shares of stock and a helluva fun time. Then I got a job as one of two programmers in a university research lab, working on what was ultimately a huge project (> 150,000 lines of C). It didn't pay nearly as well as an industry job would have, but it was great! I had nearly complete freedom in design and implementation, and though I was working in a very small niche market, I got to build a program that was used by researchers all over the world. After several years I went to work for a small company, working on a project in the same niche market (psychological experiment software).
Eventually I got bored with that, and 3 years ago I came to grad school to get my PhD in C.S. I'm making a quarter of what I would have been making if I'd stayed in my job, but I'm working on cutting edge new research in AI, and it's a blast!
Grad school in CS, at least in a doctoral program, has much less programming than you might think, and the programming you do is your research. You actually spend a lot of time reading the latest research (from recent conference and journal articles, not textbooks), writing up your own research, and preparing and giving talks on your or others' research.
Be warned, though: If you are thinking about a PhD in C.S., make sure that you do it for the experience of doing it not for the degree. It is too long a road to always be looking that far ahead.
Whatever you choose make sure you're having a blast!
No try brewing beer! Seriously, go now to a homebrew supply place, get into brewing it will save you.
It saves me routinly.
Once it got to the point that somebody was inventing a CS degree all the cool stuff was already done.
You should have majored in Physics or some sort of Engineering.
Imagine what it was like when you had to use punch cards, and your only solace was computing the square root of 49.
I am amazed at the timeliness of this article. I find myself in exactly the same place in school and with the exact same problem. I lost the joy of computer science one Saturday night during sophmore year while completing an operating systems project I had been churning out non-stop for days. I came to the epiphany that I did not want to spend the rest of my life in the bondage I percieved a computer science career to be.
Unwilling to completely drop computer science, which had been my passion for so long, I added a minor in Business, hoping I could refocus myself on something completely novel. But I found that business classes are just as awful as Computer Science classes (minus the passion.)
I did find that while my interest in business was low, the entrepreneurship program at my university seemed very exciting. I began to develop the same passion (or rather, anticipation) for starting my own company--where I could still work with computers, but control my own destiny, as it were.
Much to my dismay however entrepreneurship classes are just as uninspiring as computer science classes.
My conclusion: Your passion for computers will define the rest of your life, whether you feel that way right now or not. University courses definitely depress your interest in the subject material. Whether you're studying computer science, business, or fine art, the onus of deadlines and tests will dishearten you. But stick to your passion, and you will find a way to express it in a way that will make you happy.
In my personal opinion, computer science is hardly a dead profession. Despite the declining job market, I am finding a number of ways to market myself to employers (gleaned from my business classes) that encourage me in my job search.
My disheartenment with computer science was a good thing. I discovered it early and had a chance to try some new things in college (in particular, entrepreneurship.) And though I won't be completing either the business or entrepreneurship programs here, they gave me a chance to reevaluate where I want to be in ten years. I'm working toward THOSE goals now, regardless of how a piss-poor computer science program has altered my short-term opinion of computers.
I was programming for a long time before I went to university, mostly writing games.
:-)
I did very... average at university, mostly because I found the classes uninteresting (missing two midterms in the same term because I was hacking at home didn't help either...) I spent a lot of my time working on my own games at home instead of going to class. Maybe that's why I never got too discouraged.
As for finding silly bugs.... it gets better. The more experience you get, the fewer of those bugs you create, and when you do get them, you'll have seen them before and know what to look for first. It gets better - sometimes it just takes a while to realize you're not quite as hot as you think you are.
I'm in the games industry now, and I'm enjoying it, and doing some really cool stuff. Going to university helped, more for the aspects of project management and software engineering than hacking. It added a level of maturity to my programming skills that was absent before, which helped prevent most of the things discouraging you.
Having the piece of paper saying I know something about computers doesn't hurt either.
So, take a week off... then just program something YOU'RE interested in for a week. Then do it again. If programming is in your blood, you won't be able to stay away for long, but as others have said, you're sounding pretty burned out. Take a break.
sig fault
The industry seriously isn't nearly as interesting as it was a few years ago. You go looking for news on the latest technological developments, and you get instead a never ending squabble over 'intellectual property', and endless lawsuits. The internet has proven to not be the big thing that it was supposed to be. In university open days we were shown graphs showing that the industry would keep requiring jobs, and now all we hear about are job cuts.
The industry is in a bit of a rather depressing slump at the minute. There hasn't been any major innovations at all in the past while, and noone seems to be caring much. The current state of the market very nearly put me off going into a CS degree. But I think there is still a lot to be done in the industry, and the industry is very vast. To make CS 'fun', I think you just have to find the one tiny aspect on the industry that interests you the most.
My own area of interest is Human/Computer interaction, and the acceptence of ICT in the household and in everyday use. This is something which will likely not be touched to any great extent in my degree course, but by sticking the course out, I can eventually go out and start working towards the goals I want to see achieved in my area of interest - the removal of those horrible clunky desktop systems currently in use in the home and home computers made more laptop-like, computers that can be activated by voice just like in Star Trek, and a society that doesn't fear computers as much as it does today.
The CS course itself may suck, but it empowers you to be able to go out and work towards what you want to see in the industry.
-- Michael Lee Martin
It would explain most CS Professors. That act like they hate CS.
First, whine about it. I think your post is a good start on this one.
Second, try to decide if it is the routine of school that you are sick of, your major, or the material. You might find that you are simply burnt out of the school thing, have a few classes that aren't exciting, or just have senioritis, and want to move on wtih your life. This is OK. You may get out into The World, find a niche, and be happy again. Remember: school is not real life.
Third, if you think it really is the IT field that is going to cause you fits, try to see if you can make small moves. Perhaps you have enough credits in a minor that you can shuffle around and not extend your time in school too much. Or, find a company that has a career path that allows you to do true IT for a while, then move into a semi-related discipline (IT management, technical writing, etc.).
Fourth, if it really looks bleak, start over. Get a new major, find a "teach for America" program, join the military, or go to grad school. there are alternatives, it may, however, require a totally different plan.
Finally, if you can't start over, can't manouver, and don't think it is a temporary thing, grin and bare it. Punch your clock for eight hours a day. Do the best job you can. Take the paycheck, no matter how meager, and enjoy your life. See your family. Have cool hobbies. And accept that you are not assured you will love your job!
I can relate to having a horrible last semester or two in CS and just wishing it was all over - I imagine most people go through this. I barely finished up my last two semesters of CS 3 years ago, partially due to lack of interest. I found myself pulling all-nighters to finish projects that didn't matter to me, and if something did interest me, I never had time to pursue it due to projects or exams in other courses. I finished with a GPA very similar to yours (although the job market was a bit better back then). One thing to remember is that although the piece of paper that says 'graduate' on it is valuable in finding that first job, it is no guarantee of future success. Some of the most brilliant CS people I've met coasted through college classes doing only what was necessary to pass a class as their real interests were elsewhere. Although I admire those who buckled down and had the immaculate transcript, the degree is really all that matters.
Since graduating, I have enjoyed every day in the CS field (well, getting laid off wasn't great, but definitely not isolated to CS jobs and it wasn't too tough to find another one). I work as a consultant and programmer which has turned out to be a great path for me - the advantage is that every few months I get to go to a new client working with technologies that I might not have used together before, and implement solutions to problems based on what is available at that client. This never gets old and can be very rewarding. The biggest thing to remember is that CS doesn't necessarily mean sitting in a cube writing code. CS is a very big and varied field where you can do research, teach, work in business, work in a lab situation, etc. There are many options out there and you just have to pick one that works for you! Pay attention to the replies that talk about mixing fields together. Computers are everywhere and with the background knowledge, can be applied to anything. One last thing before I write a book - have interests outside of CS! Join an amateur sports team, remodel a car, or volunteer somewhere. Without something outside of a computer to focus on, you might just go crazy!
Except for the effect on your first job, it doesn't matter much what you major in. I have a BS in Civil Engineering, my first job was as a photographer, the I got a master's in Operations Research, and now I am pimping as a consultant. My co-pimp in my current contract has a master's in Theatre Arts.
It does matter somewhat that you finish and get some kind of degree, maybe not ultimately but it will make it easier to get hired until you have a track record.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
doctor: Is it because you were going to be a great geek that you came to me?
you I could hardly wait to throw myself into an intense, highly technical curriculum and shine.
doctor: Why do you say you could hardly wait?
you: I drag myself to classes and through projects, and it all seems really pointless--I'm just implementing what's written in the book, and eradicating the countless off-by-one bugs is nothing short of mind-numbing.
doctor: Earlier you said you were going to be a great geek?
you: What do you do when it isn't fun any more, but you'd like it to be?
doctor: Maybe your plans have something to do with this.
you: Goodbye.
doctor: My secretary will send you a bill.
end of line
Dear Sadsack,
Aside from the typical cracks about immaturity, towing the line, yadda yadda, there are lots of things I can reccomend. Here are a few.
1: You are young, it is not uncommon to feel this way. Buck up, it does get better. Self mastery in times like these is a character trait that you will need to really succeed in life.
2: Try specializing. Take a few extra courses allowing you to go into hot fields like BIOINFORMATICS or controls systems. The areas of I.T./C.S. that seem to still be doing well are these specialized support areas.
3: The internet bubble is broke and lots of people now have a bad taste in their mouth. Don't get hooked on a dead dream, it was doomed from the start. If you are serious about Internet technology, make sure you get lots of experience and be prepared for atleast 5 years of hard work for low pay to gain experience. Also be prepared to face a telco and more of a corporate environment.
4: Diverisify your skill set. Be sure you are not the typical grad whom can only write crappy little utilities in c and java apps and thus thinks they are hot shit. Know how to be an SA, know the hardware, know how to develop in the top languages (C/C++, Java, Perl etc.) Study software archetecture and gain exposure to multiple platforms. This makes you much more likely to get a job, especially getting an interesting one.
5: Work. Get a job, get experience. Even if you have to work for a pittance, gain experience. It takes a few years, but it is unreasonable for people to assume you walk out of college and get a slammin high paying interesting job right away. It doesn't work that way, not for doctors, lawyers, no one. It takes about 5 years after school to really get going in any field.
6: Get a mentor. This is very important. Meet whith him/her once a month over lunch/dinner and discuss what you have done that month to progress your carreer. Discuss your hurdles, what you fail at, what you succeed at. Get more than one mentor if you can.
rr.
I also found my courses to be boring in many ways. Universities have professors who do research, so they teach their students how to do research.... But I'm not at all interested in research! I like to solve problems and build cool things!
I found that my carreer of software engineering is extremely rewarding and not at all like school was. Give it a try and see what you think!
I am a year out of school with an IS degree. I make low 20's, and part of me thinks that I am nuts. After all, I owe about 50k in loans from a degree that isn't paying off money-wise. But I'm notcrazy and I am not mad about my situation.
I like what I do, I have been working to start a company that I believe in, with people that I believe in. I hated school and I don't think it gets much worse than school, because you are solving problems that have been solved before and usually you feel no personal gain when it is completed (aside from a decent grade).
In real life, you need to ask yourself what you have a passion for. I have a personal feeling that society should be a much easier place to live. So in my small way I work to automate companies, whether they are medical practices, schools, small businesses, etc... I don't midn that the money isn't good right now because I like what I do. But I also think its important not to stay in one place for too long.
My job affords me the benefit of moving in to a new situation all them time and revisitng old ones on occasion. Your typical IT guy that has worked for a massive company for 20 years in the same cubicle won't give you a great outlook on post-graduation.
The most important thing to remember is that a CS degree is a very impressive and helpful degree in anything you should decide to do. Thats why I was confident in completeing my own CS degree. If my business doesn't work out, I have no problems trying something new. But always keep in mind what you want out of life in general, in that mind set you will most probably find a job that you like and closely matches your talents.
Just keep moving around, it may take a while to figure out what you really like.
Scott
[sig]darkfus[/sig]
Its time to grow up. The majority of people I know do not like their job very much. Its work. Its a living, and it still does pay well versus others. Its time to accept the fact that work is work, and fun is fun, and normally they are seperate. I guess what Im saying is find a hobby.
A lot of people have recommended taking a break for a few weeks somewhere nice and sunny. I agree. You're too burnt out now.
But part of living a happy live is maintaining your sanity. To do that, a hobby is good, but I think you should probably take up a sport as well.
A hobby is nice, quiet, and takes your mind off of things. I build models.
However, I'm also an avid cyclist and martial artist. If I get mad at code, I hop on the bike and ride off the frustration. Maybe I'll take it out on a punching bag. I wouldn't be able to concentrate on a model if I were frustrated.
Any sport is okay, even if it's something that you do once a week. Build up your frustrations, and take it out on somebody else in a friendly football league.
Exercise is good for the body AND the mind. One is useless without the other, so take care of both, and you'll be much happier.
Learn Finnish. Or Sanskrit.. Or both.
Warning: Personal Experience Ahead!
... it was '90).
My last 2 years of college I learned absolutely nothing useful in class, however I part-timed as unix systems admin for a dept on campus. On the job, I learned unix, c, fortran, network app programming, tcl/tk, postscript, and got a dabbling of www/html experience (gimme a break
It was trial by fire. My grades slipped (in fact I passed my senior project by the skin of my teeth), but my practical (read 'realworld useful') knowledge blossomed. I loved it.
Get a job and stick out the school. A degree will get you in the door of a job, your realworld knowledge will excel you over your peers. Good pay and true opportunity will come later as you build a reputation for kicking binary ass.
"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte
The best advice that I ever got was to make a list of my 3 favorite things to do and choose the third thing on the list as my career. That way, I would have the other 2 as hobbies.
It sounds to me like when computers is no longer a hobby for you, it becomes tedious. I woulud make that list, find something non-IT (or at least non-programming) related and spend the rest of your time hacking.
Find a mentor who can trick you into working like crazy.
You'll be amazed what you've done after three years.
Best to find a mentor who expects you to keep a piece of the work.
Education is not the end all of the world as universities would like you to think. Sure I got my BA, but remember college/universities are primarily there to let you experience new things, not inspire you. If you're lucky enough to find teachers who inspire you, take every class they teach. I was lucky enough to have great teachers in Literature.
I always knew I'd work with computers, so I bagged the formal education and decided to broaden my perception of the world. There are people who think "you have to take a class to learn how to do it right" and there are people who need it. There are no right or wrong ways to learn. It's all a matter of clearing one's head of all the stupid BS and focus on what matters. Of course clearing all the BS is hard to do and even harder when you're in school.
Probably the best advice I've heard in college was, "learn to think critically." If you can do that, doesn't matter what your degree is. The percentage of people who graduate w/o a grain of critical thinking is the same in every major. On the otherhand, it never hurts experimenting with electives. Take some classes that aren't in your requirements. You might find it refreshing and make you realize classes are all the same. The only difference between the grind and fun is a subtle shift in perspective.
you pussy bitch. go study art history of something.
fag.
Take a longer vacation, travel around the world and visit places you always wanted to visit and places you've never heard of before.
It'll give you lots of input, you'll gain lots of experience and some memories you'll never want to miss. Even if it doesn't help you with your CS studies, it will help you focus of the goals that are important to you and judging from your post, CS still seems to be one these goals.
And yes, it can be done on a small budget, even/especially as a student.
Free Manning, jail Obama.
What do you do when it isn't fun any more, but you'd like it to be?
The answer for everything; drinking.
Fuck Ajit Pai
I started down the road you're on almost 20 years ago, made it all the way from Helpdesk guy to MIS Manager then onto VP where I am today. Somewhere along the way I made the decision to give up the fun parts of being involved with computers in favor of more money and power over the direction of the group. If I had to do it all over again I would have given up some of the cash and stayed with what I enjoyed. In the end we are the sum of our actions. Choose carefully.
Universities are great for killing hope and the enjoyment of technical work. This is because most of the people teaching could never cut it in the real world environment. Don't let the university clods beat you down. Stick it out. It gets much better once you escape the universities (get your white collar work permit so you can get by the HR nazi's) and make it into corporate life.
HANG IN THERE!
I remember that feeling. In my last year of undergrad, I blew off the CS Senior Seminar and took Contemporary British Drama. I'm holding a BS in English with minors in Literature and Mathematics. Ten years in, I've been pretty successful doing mostly Program Management in interesting companies.
Ten years ago, having an All But Degree background didn't really prevent you from working in the industry. It's probably harder now, but nowhere near impossible.
However, try relaxing for an hour or so and focusing on your own personal determination instead of the code. You're tired, but you only have a couple months to go. If you stick it out, not only do you get the degree, but you get the satisfaction of achieving what you set out to do. Even though things have gone well, I sometimes wish I had done that.
Almost all large undertakings have a black and bleak period right before the end. The knowledge that you can keep marching in the dark serves you well.
Become an electrical engineer. You can still do software engineering if you want to, plus, you'll be so busy and stressed out you'll never have the time to stop and think: "Am I having fun?"
We dance to all the wrong songs.
--Refused.
There are some really difficult realities to be faced when leaving academia. After I graduated, I took a job as a programmer away from school and family. I was terribly excited, certain that I would be placed in charge of important exciting projects that would let me use all of those valuable skills I'd learned in school. I was also certain the the big city (Nashville, in this case) would have a lot to offer (you know -- chicks).
:-)
What I encountered was totally different -- companies don't typically put fresh-outs into big important jobs. I was doing mind-numbing code revisions that nobody else wanted. About my third week there, I realized that there would be no semester break, summer off, or graduation. I wouldn't get to trade bosses and coworkers every few months for new ones, so sour professional relationships would not just go away either. The next definite break in my routine was about 42 years down the road at retirement.
As for the chicks -- no workplace will have as many early 20's coeds as a college campus.
Depressed yet? I was, but things got better.
People at work begin to see your abilities and trust you with larger projects. Most people do change jobs occasionally, and these changes often offer significant jumps in pay, responsibility, and authority. Eventually, you look around and things are prettty good. Without sticking it out through the tough spots, though, you'll never get there.
The moral: Give the work world a chance, don't scuttle your carreer because of a few classes, or 1 or 2 lousy jobs. If you find, after a year or so (and at least 2 jobs), that tech really isn't interesting or exciting, then consider another degree (I went back for a Masters after 2 1/2 years working). If you're lucky, you'll find an employer to pay your way.
Don't get so caught up in where you are that you can't see where you're going.
Eventually, I even found the chicks. One of them even agreed to marry me.
I'm a year out from a CSE (merged Computer Science and Engineering) degree, and with the coursework flows here (at an unnamed University in Northern Arizona), it'll take considerably longer (2 years) to do the degree than I think it should. As such, *my* solution is to pack it up and go to MIS. But - if you're one semester away, I'd probably stay in it, and then if you're looking at doing IT management, I'd head to grad school for an MBA. Just my $.02; it's good to know that I'm not the only one going through this!
I know the feeling. I quit Computer Engineering 1 year into my degree. Switched to an English Literature / German double major system. Never looked back ever since.
I'm a practicing computer scientist, but I got my degree in mechanical engineering. I could have done better gradewise had my heart been into it - instead I paroused the vast libraries available - discovered all these cool programming paradigms such as evolutionary algorithms, subsumption architechure, evolvable hardware - saw how they could relate to engineering design. I "wasted" more time in those libraries but I wouldn't trade that time discovering my interests for a higher gpa. Nietszche said something about the best work being the kind that absorbs you as play does a child. Go for it - follow your instincts.
There are alot of different things you can do in IT. If all I did was write code, then I could get kinda bored. When I was in college, I counted the days until I graduated. Then I ended up getting a job as a DBA. On a given day I can go from tuning SQL statements to figuring out why the webserver is spitting out Jserv error messages. I might spend an hour or two writing a Perl program to parse through some datafiles. I guess the point is, a job in the IT field can be almost anything you want it to be.
You know if you go back through all these comments posted reading at a leval 4 or 5 some of them can be quite motivating.
What floats your boat? Model trains? Racing? Ancient Latin? Find something that you love to do, and apply your budding CS skills to it. You'll find yourself looking forward to quality time with your computer again, and discover newfound relevence in your class projects.
So go write a traintrack layout tool, reinvent babelfish, or design software to produce laser shows (that's what I did). It doesn't matter what it is. Just be sure you do some work for yourself, not your GPA. It'll rejuvinate your interest in coding, help you realize the extent of your own skills, and--extra bonus--be great resume fodder.
Good luck!
--dan
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
As someone who's worked in IT for 15+ years I can only give you this one piece of advice: It's not your life, it's just a career. Don't let your identity get wrapped up in what you do. Your job is the place where you trade the moments of your life for money. Don't sell yourself cheap. Millions of people work in virtual slavery - don't be one of them. The ratio of income potiential to education for IT work is as high or higher than any other career. Get your degree. Spend a few years making moderate income to get the experience needed to be truly valuable in your field. It probably won't be fun, but view it as an investment in your future. Take that experience and make the most money you can without selling out your morals. Use that money to live your real life, do something meaningful, help people, whatever.
That said, exercise extreme self control in your lifestyle - do NOT allow your lifestyle to rise to your income. Keep that 'starving student' mindset. Treat each job as a 'means to an end'. Always living at the limits of your income makes you a slave - don't fall into the consumerism trap. Start planning now to be the master of your money and not it's servant.
I've found this to be a common problem these days because a lot of students nowadays are bored with just implementing and doing what your professors tell you to. It is so limiting , when you just have to bother about reaching deadlines et al.
Agrees, you could try your hand in projects you think are interesting but you'll have to choose between the great mark or some great fun and ideally, this stupid choice shouldn't exist.
The educational system should be improved. This kind of learning was for our grandfathers, not for us
The duality weakens
I encountered the same problem when I was graduating a couple of years ago. I didn't particularly enjoy what I was doing, at least not nearly as much as when I started college. So what did I do? I'm a CS teacher now for a private high school. It's great. I have lots of freedom to work on my own projects, really small class sizes, and actually feel like I'm doing something worthwhile (some of the time, at least).
The best thing about it, though, is that after a couple of months (when we started doing projects in my AP class), all of that excitement that I used to have came rushing back. For the first time in years (and this is the important part!), I was programming for myself, not because of some random hideous assignment in some course I had to take. (Now I give the hideous assignments. Yes, I'm well aware of the irony.)
Once you start doing these things because someone's forcing you too instead of enjoying the challenge and doing it for yourself, that's when the fun goes away. For me, just looking at CS from a different angle really invigorated me. I'm able to work on projects that I never would have been interested in during college, and I keep learning stuff as I go. I've got my Bachelor's in CS, but I'm working towards Sun's Java Programmer and Developer certification. (AP moves from C++ to Java in 2003, so it'd be nice to have those) I get to offer independent classes for kids who have other interests, and learn a few things as I go. (I've got one freshman (!) who wants to do OS X development, and another I'm going to learn Inform with, and make a few stories for the next IF contest.)
I love my job, and dammit.... I love CS again! Woo!
You should go work construction for the summer, or maybe get a job at Starbucks with the crew from your Archaeology class. It is typical of the 'spoiled brat' syndrome endemic in America and in our Universities that someone would bemoan the burden of life as a coder. Loser.
Uni is mundane and boring most of the time. Work on the other hand.. I get to play with things and solve problems that NEED solving. There aren't 100 other students working on the same problem either. And the stuff I get to do is just plain cool.
I think uni will get a lot better next year though; since I'll get to do a third year project.
Anyways, my advice: get the piece of paper, then enjoy doing stuff in the real world. You won't appreciate how much funner it can be than it is at uni.
(as for burnout.. i was a little burnt out earlier this year. there's only one solution: time away from what's burning you out. whether that takes the form of an hour less each day, or a week off every couple of months, depends upon the person...)
you whining middle class turd. Go and get a job as a fucking bricklayer.
They are called girls. Thats what Lisa from The Simpsons is. A girl. They are soft, sometimes nice, and have boobies. Boobies are good. Once you've discovered girls (one may even be your Pascal teacher!), you should persue them. For years you won't even be able to build up the courage to do anything other than puke on them, or maybe drool and stutter uncontrollably, but eventually you may get the courage to ask one out. After another few years of that, assuming you haven't slit your wrists from the pain of rejection, one may even say yes! Even though it'll most likely be out of pity, you too may get a shot at boobi... i mean girls. Yes girls, recompiling your kernel for the 8millionth time may be fun, but nothing beats girls! Or trolling on /. ... but the hour is late, and that is a different tale ...
...and I decided to do something else (mostly writing) rather than grow to hate one of the few things that I was good at and enjoyed.
It was a terrible, terrible mistake.
I always hacked around in my spare time, and eventually pulled myself out of semi-poverty writing CGIs for "web developers" (Thanks, Mr. Wall!) but when I started doing programming full-time I realized that a.) I would never get tired of it, and b.) I was ten years behind.
Believe me, you'll get sick of the stuff that you do instead of programming a lot sooner that you get sick of writing code. I would quit jobs every few years, but I have never really considered a career change since I came home to the great silicon salt lick. I may hate the company I work for, but I never get tired of my work.
Working at other kinds of jobs taught some very valuable things that I couldn't have learned from geeks--how to write, how to manage people, and how to seduce women. Still, every day I wish I had started five years earlier.
Nobody'll probably read the 700th post but...
I got burned out and took up weight lifting for a couple years. Aside from casual internet surfing I didn't do anything with computers, or at least anything that required creative thought to instruct the computer to do what I wanted it to.
After a couple years I got back into programming and have been happily doing it for the last 5 years. The trick is not to isolate yourself or force yourself to code and be creative unless it's absolutely necessary for a project at your job. Prior to my "break" I was forcing myself to spend about 8 hours a day in front of the computer while I was still in high school. My classes usually consisted of my ignoring the teacher and hand-writing code in a notebook (the paper kind). I was obsessed. Like any obsession, it'll drive you mad.
Is there a medical term for somebody that spends an unhealthy amount of time in front of a computer?
You must never forget the one true rule of programming in school....it really, really sucks! The programs that you are sent out to write are unimaginative and probably not challenging enough.
I hated school, and I had a bad feeling that I would be miserable after I graduated. Then I got a job in the "real world", and I loved it because I finally took some pride in the code that I was writing! I learned more in the first 2 months than I did in my last 2 years of school, and the problems that I worked on were challenging and real (instead of the bland textbook problems they try to give you in school).
Once I got into the professional programming world, I loved it more than ever, and I getting paid for it was just icing on the cake.
The problem is that we realize that we're geeks and that we just don't care anymore. I mean, three years ago I was a code perfectionist; now I really don't give a rats ass. Project after useless project, we just get bored of the same ol' thing over and over again. For example, the school I'm at has penis envy for the ivy-leagues, and so they make the CS major as difficult as possible because they don't have the rep they would like. But it's silly, why make the courses so unneccessarily difficult? The average GPA in my major is less that 3.0!!! They don't even bother to hire enough lectures to teach sufficient number of sections, and we get all the rejects from Cal, because they have some hoity-toity agreement that they don't have to take but the ones they want, and we have to take all the top 10% of high-schools' graduating class. Oh yeah, and the other problem is that dorks (geek wannabes) that want to make $100k / year think that they'll learn CS because it's EZ money. CS is hard! In our microwave-instant-gratification society, people want instant results without effort. (Perl?) That's my 2.0e-2 dollars.
The biggest trick the devil pulled was letting lawyers become politicians so they can write the laws.
Just remember-
David Bowie was 24 when Ziggy Stardust was released.
T.S.Eliot was 24 when J. ALfred Prufrock was released.
CS is a good deal like having the ability to fight when you become lost in the African Veldt. It comes in quite handy in certain times. CS, then, is valuable because it is of our time. Be glad you are a part of a generation, with the force and feelings of many beside you. And again, do what spurs you and those around you, like yourself, will be better for it.
It isn't the school you went to, it isn't your gpa, and it isn't who you know that will make you happy in life.
It is only what you choose to do with yourself in life. Forget about money, forget about what everyone else is telling you should do. Take 2 weeks off, buy a mountain bike, head to Durango colorado (bring snow ski's this time of year as well) and free your mind from everything. You will be refreshed and ready to take on anything.
Most of all, READ. Stimulation is the only way to not burn out. You can't rely on work, friends or family to keep you stimulated, and frankly the people who can satisfy there own minds and growth are the most successfull people in the world.
I don't have a lick of college and work on financial applications and database systems. I love my line of work, but i find varying what i want to know and seeking the answer to everything i can has kept me sharp, on edge, and intriguing.
An employeer who sees this in you will snag you up no matter what.
He who dies with the most toys,
Still dies.
He who dies with the most success, dies a successfull and remembered person.
Success is not money.
I'm only a sophomore and I know where you're comming from -- to a degree.
I go to University Wisconsin Eau Claire. Our CS department has the lowest graduating GPA average of any department at UWEC, and one of the lowest averages of the midwest schools (for CS) -- but, we also are on average some of the highest paid graduates. Low grades here == harder ciriculum.
Last year (second semester of my freshman year) I picked up some GPL source code (in PHP) to a game called Promisance. I've since co-rewritten the code into something infinetly better than it was (but still in need of serious work).
I spent the money I earned this summer to buy a machine to act as a server and now I'm running the game(http://qm.ath.cx). I currently spend between 15 and 30 hours a week working on the game and site. I often find myself doing this instead of my CS, but then again, I also find myself implementing design patterns I learn in CS.
Point here -- find a way to use what you are learning, and make it something fun for you.
"If God's on our side, he'll stop the next war." -- Bob Dylan
Undergrad just provides you with the basic tools you'll need in the field. As such, yes, its boring. However, consider getting an advanced degree in an area you really like. I'm got my undergrad in CS, and now I'm working towards my masters, playing with mobile robots, and other AI applications. Its worlds apart from undergrad.
One of the things this guy talked about was programming GIS databases to aid law enforcement in pinpointing trouble areas. For instance by manipulating the data of a rise in break-ins in a city, they found that they occured in concentric circles eminating out from a single point. Turned out that the house in the center was owned by a drug pusher. That's one of the coolest applications of Computer Science that I ever heard of.
I have a BS in CS and by the end, I knew I didn't want to program for a living. Luckily, I had a student job as a student sys admin. I loved it! I got my masters in Information and Communication Sciences (network design, administration, and management) and loved that. Hopefully, I will get to do more of that stuff in the future. I work as a microcomputer/network analyst now and write in my spare time. I also enjoy programming admin and security based things and I appreciate my degrees.
I guess my point is that your CS degree may be fixated on certain types of problems, but there are other fields that need computer scientists. Biology, physics, chemistry, criminology, and archeology are but a few. If you are interested in anything else, try mixing and matching. If you are talented in both subjects, you are likely to become cutting edge in the field. Be creative. Creativity solves a lot of problems, most importantly among them... boredom.
One other thing that helped me was to learn about Computer Science/Technology history when I was fighting the same feelings that you are, though my GPA had dropped below yours. In "our" fascinating history, I learned about the problems that people throughout history have tried to tackle through computer science. Its amazing stuff and usually out of the realm of "off-by-one errors." Look at this earlier slashdot thread for some thoughts on the importance and relevance of learning something about CS' past.
Bring out your trusty 12-guage, load it. Sit in your favorite comfy chair. Put barrel in mouth... pull trigger with toe.
I suggest reading Linus's book...
I finished my software eng. course last May. As the course went on I would hate it more and more just like you described. But you've got to realise that it's not the real world. Doing a course in CS is nothing like really doing CS.
I'm now enjoying working on my own small projects again, and I've a promising job possibly coming up. I'd suggest hanging on until the end of the course, and getting at least one job in the field before giving up on it completely.
/* This sig is disabled. Press CTRL-W to enable. Thankyou */
Working for a brewery has many advantages:
1. Your customers are always glad to see you
2. No need for a health-club membership
3. Mostly a 9-5 job
4. You get to meet hot-looking drunk chicks
When Counterstrike isn't fun any more, you can always play Starcraft.
free online diet tracking.
Become a plumber. =)
The biggest trick the devil pulled was letting lawyers become politicians so they can write the laws.
Yes. I stopped listening to all the people that were telling me what I wanted. I packed up my car, my guitar and left without looking back. I then proceeded to live a rich life not rich in terms of money but rich in experience.
Over twenty years, while I was a ski patrol director, a newspaper photographer, bartender, wood cutter, business owner and always a musician and now a DBA, I managed to find a wife and have a great kid and grab that 6 figure income.
All without that precious degree.
I'll never forget this old gentleman that I ran into in the lobby of the Franklin Hotel in deadwood South Dakota, I was 18 and he told me and my ski buddies that is was great that we were having fun and living life. He work his whole life and never did the things he wanted to do but what he "should do" and now at the end of his life we could see the deep regret in his face.
Life is short. Take a few years off, go be a ski bum, bartend, work for a cause, there are enough corporate drones and computer geeks creating throw away crap in this world. You don't have to do it!!!
You're not alone - I fell in that exact same hole - but unlike you - I continued digging. My GPA dropped miserably. My class attendance was wavering. Heck, I was even lucky that I remembered to hand projects in and in time. Yep, that bad.
:) -somewhat a reality :) - WORLD BE WARNED! KING 'PUTER GEEK IS HERE! - *snigger*.
Now I graduated, and working... it gets worse and worse..... LOL NO! IT DOESN'T. It's just you... you need to take a break and loosen up. Sometimes, it feels that it's way too much and very intimidating but heck - that is not the reality. It becomes better! Keep yer GPA up and don't falter - don't do what I did... After I graduated I realised how generalised CS is and how not so particular it is. What I mean is that I can inject what I learned to something more specific. For example... I like graphic design - so I picked up web design - and a little web development as well. I'm currently working as a 'puter techie... so that I can refine my problem solving skills and gain some networking experience. I have a whole plan made out of how to combine those two together... and guess what my interest is back! I'm even thinking of going back to the ol' school and get my MSc in CS and increase my GPA like I should have done in the first place.
Now that I have a slight taste of what it's like out there - I know that I'll make my dream - well - eh
Great ideas happen at 4am. Bad career moves happen at 4pm...
Why not get the degree, get a job, and see if you find the work interesting. The stuff my company does isn't just "implementing what's written in the book". We write cool stuff that doesn't exist, because our business needs call for it.
Complaining that CS is just bookwork -- while still in college -- is like a med student complaining that medicine is just poking at dead people.
Confessions of a control freak:
Instead of feeling trapped like a hamster running on a treadmill, pick an area you can get into, and have solid knowledge of, before poking out into related mainstream coding.
Related niche areas include porting, parsing, configuration management, documentation, database administration, sytem administration and testing.
I worked in porting (lots of compiler flags and Make files) for a couple of years and got pretty much on top of it, and picked up knowledge of the application (oracle) before leaping into related jobs.
Now I work in parsing (lex and yacc type stuff using javacc) and I really should (I will - think positive) be making a better fist of getting on top of it.
I realise I do not cut it as a top, or even good, coder, though I do have dreams of putting something together in my own time using open source (a JSP/JDBC cookbook/framework is the current bet). I think my problem with coding is that I never have had the time to really get on top of it, it was either too routine, in one job, or too open ended, in another.
Remember if you are really bad you could get promoted to management.
Turloch
Be Free: Free Software Tuition
How is the whore still known as Jinxi?
My momma done told me that I'd be a tech. The pays done sold me, I love that paycheck. My brain done gone numb, now I'm blue, sticking out like a soar thuuuummmb....:)
Well, I've been fooling around with computers since '93...I've done so many computer related things, I feel like I know it all. I know I don't know it all but it's so rare that I find a challenge, a problem that I can't solve relatively easily it's not even funny.
I've been working in the IT field for about 2-3 years and I've got to tell you that I feel there's not much left for me that I haven't done, other than becoming a game programmer, which I really don't want to do.
I skipped College because I've been making really good money since High School, good enough to get myself set for awhile. The problem I'm facing is the same, the Tech Blues and unfortunately I don't have a solution yet but at the same time, I'd miss that paycheck.
1) Write something for fun when you have some time - Maybe over the winter solstice holiday. This way -you- define how good it is and what your project needs, not someone who's looking for something easy to grade. It's nice to write creatively, and not (only) some mind-crushingly mass-produced assignment.
2) Work in a higher level language when you can. Assembler's ludicrous. C isn't great either. C++ isn't much better. java is a middle ground. Really good choices include python and ML - few words per idea expressed is your goal. Go with perl if you must go along with the crowd; it's HL, but pretty ugly, like sendmail.cf.
3) Analyze your mistakes and learn from them. EG, if you're correcting your own off-by-ones regularly, inculcate a habit of thinking, every time you encounter a boundary condition, "how can this go wrong?" and try to prevent the problem before it comes up. You might even keep tally of the bugs you run across in your own code, and focus on prevention of the ones that come up the most. I know this is a bit of a pain, but it's a lot less of a pain than tracking down a runtime error, especially once you get in the habit.
(NOTE: Obscure reference below.)
at a busy restaurant. That's usually enough to make just about anything (else) seem like fun-time American party.
-Rhomboid
Historical quotes, references to sex AND some of the soundest advice [...] a female of the species
Maybe it's consequence and cause?
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
But, hey, thanks for playing.
I myself have 3 years of a CIS degree behind me. Late 95 I kind of burned out on it. To this day I am still glad I walked away from it. I enjoy my sysadmin and support work a lot. I only wish I would have started learning *nix earlier. (and network equipment for that matter) Am I learning less than I could have? Yes BUT do I enjoy my job? YES! I am of that odd age (27) where if I were born 5-7 years earlier or later I would be better off. If I was born earlier I would likely have a lot more *nix experience. If I was born later I would have had the chance to study *nix and Cisco in high school. I was part of a generation that for the most part was raised on dos and windows. Not a bad thing mind you (it does pay the mortgage, car payment, etc) but there are things I wish I would have learned about earlier.... Jason
Ever feel like you are driving the getaway car?
Drink a lot.
I went back up to visit the old college Stomping Grounds. College is a great place to drink cheap beer, and tell all the youngins that if they are complaining about B* trees now that wait till they get to the real world... It only gets worse now with no Dot-com's, no stock options, and now babes that come in the ferrari that you will never get promised.
I did CS for the chicks... (fatal mistake, shoulda went pre-med or pre-law)
"It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
I think you're getting hammered by your choice of major to the point where it ceases to be fun. That's a real pity.
Your predicament vis-a-vis IT is different from my situation. I got started in engineering, but used computers a lot and found them to be fascinating. They were supposed to be ancillary tools and devices for helping an engineer to do a job, but, gosh darn, they're just so interesting in their own right!
It's funny. Some of the reasons I did not pick CS as a major early in my career were as a result of influence from my father.
My father was a EE and he, not wanting to unduly influence me, assured me repeatedly that I did not need to pick the same career as he. (I date myself - in those days CS and EE were closer than now.)
Second, my father told me scary stories about people he had met up with (during the 1960's) who seemed to be consumed by the computer, who were addicted to the computer, who forgot to eat, to sleep, to have any personal relationships because of the computer. From that point of view, choosing a career in CS was like choosing to be an alcoholic. So that indulging in CS and IT are morally equivalent to scoring a hit of $INTOXICANT.
So now I'm doing programming most of the time. It was not my major or what I got my degree doing. But graduate school and my job has allowed me to drift towards doing what I love. You can do that too.
If you're close to getting a degree, then go ahead and get the sheepskin. It's a useful lever just like finishing high school, knowing how to type, etc. But don't feel compelled to choose a comfortable high-paying job in your degreed subject. Rather, look for a job (or graduate school, as you see fit) in an area closer to where your love lies (archaelogy, astronomy, aerospace, charitable organization, university computer center, high performance automobiles, etc.). Then, just continue to make choices and drift towards doing the things you love to do. It's the only way.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
that's all you got sucka?
.......please
Really, it will. I don't know what school you go to, but most CS programs I've seen are relatively dry at the undergrad level, and coding becomes a bore. But when you get out into the real world, and work on something that interests you, it's different. Coding is a means to an end, and very few people (only the true geeks) truly enjoy coding for the act of coding.
me, I found out that I was bored coding when I was a junior. So I went to grad school, and will likely take an academic position next year doing research, which interests me far more than coding. I see coding as a means to an end, and that end is what determines your interest in the field. Right now, your end is to just finish whatever assignments you're given, so of course it's boring. I see that in a lot of undergrads I've taught. The key is to go code on projects that interest you.
B
...and watch as, day by day, your soul is sucked out of you. Go home, cry yourself to sleep, wake up in a cold sweat at 5 am. Lose interest in food, sex, entertainment.
You'll find out why
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can't kill the beast.
Posts have suggested many alternatives. I believe that you will need to do all of them.
- Take some time away from CS
- broaden your horizons academically and otherwise.
- Then look at what you enjoy
- Do what you enjoy, money will come.
- Give yourself time to do all this and remember not to blindly copy others' decisions.
I have been through something similar recently and have stumbled through the above stages, albeit unplanned. The hardest part has been figuring out what I enjoy and that's where exploring all the options helped a lot. Now things are getting clearer and I think I know what I want to do.
You could also take some vocational/personality tests to help you figure out what you may enjoy. Your career office should be able to help you. They get paid to do this kind of stuff. Make sure you get a one to one consultation. Another resource (expensive!) is Johnson O'Connor Foundation. I didn't do this test myself but my wife and some other people I know found it quite useful.
Most of all give yourself time. I extended my Ph.D. by more than a year to just try out different things and resolve these issues before going on. I should have done that before the PhD. but better late than never! So be warned that blindly going to grad school is not going to solve your problems.
Hope that helps.
p.s. I am very glad that this topic was brought up on slashdot. I find some of the posts very helpful for my own situation too.
cry me a river.
Are you sure you're sick of CS and not just sick of CS in the university's. I love CS but my last 2 years of university I hated, the classes were so boring and I thought I knew everything they were teaching. I actually dropped out of school went to work for an IT firm and ended up going back and graduating later.
This is what masturbation was invented for...
Go back to TFC.
I put on my robe and wizard hat.
Become a psychotic. Get a good bowie knife, a chainsaw and an abandoned warehouse. Find tourists, maul them horribly and then do evil perverted s*** to them. You can practice on puppy dogs.
Engineer's Malaise is nothing new. In more recent (CS) times it was documented in "The Soul of a New Machine."
So, go and find another career, and go have fun. I'm still having fun doing CS/IT type stuff but it is n't the only thing I do for fun. I restore cars, too.
I don't know what your classes are like, but the classes at my college so far have not been showing any signs of teaching much that is useful. Instead of having to write decent sized programs that actually do something, we're forced time and time again to write really short programs that essentially do nothing. Not only that, but knowing that nobody uses the programs and that mine do the exact same thing as everybody elses isn't exactly reassuring.
The way I look at it, if I stick it out through the classes where nothing gets done, sooner or later I'll be able to get back to writing programs that do something, and people will be able to use them. For me, that's all it takes for writing a program to be fun: the knowledge that it can be used.
Like some of the people above, I got a second degree (in History) when I was in College. I plan on going back to get my Master's in that eventually, and teach. I don't have any desire to combine the two (CS+History); I just love them both. But I'm pretty sure I can't love just CS forever, so I already have something lined up for after that. I know lots of people who have tired of CS after only a few years and go on to do management or something, anything, other than programming.
School sucks. Get out of there. Gates did. But finish your degree first. Take the quickest path to the degree. School teaches you to get a job and work to make someone else money. With a job you are paid at wholesale and sold at retail. You'll need a degree to hold a job when you get out. Do it for a couple of years and save up some money. Then start your own business. Yes, you'll work hard and you might even eat dog food for a month or two but you'll be in command. When you are in the drivers seat, you can do the work that makes YOU happy. And you will be good at it. Freedom is a great thing. Freedom is NOT being married to a cube and a pointy haired boos from 9 to 5.
For now, spend a day drunk with sober friends who will keep you out of big trouble. Then over Christmas break, get some beach time and don't take your laptop!
Take a break. Get a simple job someplace doing something completely different. (i.e. making copies, UPS delivery, shelf stocker at Wal-Mart) Only use a computer when YOU want to. It may take a while, but it will come back to you....It worked for me.
FINISH THE DEGREE, THEN DO SOMETHING ELSE Slug through it and get the sheepskin. Then stick it in a drawer, and go do something else. If you want to work with your hands, contact all your local trade unions (electricians, plumbers, stagehands) and find out how to sign up. Almost all of them have apprentice programs where you can learn as you work (albeit for a lower wage than a journeyman earns). If you're an early riser, contact every commercial and artisinal bakery in your city, and get a job as an apprentice baker. You'll start early and have plenty of daylight left after work for playing fetch with the dog. If you are outdoorsey, get a job at REI and exploit your employee discount to buy cheap gear. Bike, hike, kayak, and climb. Or if you ski, get a job as a dishwasher or waiter at a bar or restautant at a ski area (so you'll be working in the evenings and get an employee discount on lift tickets) and ski all day. (Don't be a lift operator - then you get to spend all day watching the paying customers ski.) Or something else. The point is, as long as you have the degree, you will have the option to return to a desk job if and when you get sick of a lower-wage working-class job. That day may never come, but if it does, you'll be glad the sheepskin is safe it it's drawer. -- Ghengis 1986 - 1990 University 1990 - 1999 Stagehand 1999 - pres Software Developer
It's true, being a computer geek has lost all of it's appeal. Even when 'geek' was a bad thing, at least you could take solace that you were smarter than the people picking on you. But now, anyone who knows how to double click can be a sysadmin.
Most stuff has already been written so programmers are basically just gluing together peices of pre-written code. Computers are fast enough that theres no sense of accomplishment by getting a routine to run faster. Face it, computer professionals are just glorified paper pushers... and the 'glorified' part is getting less true every day.
Do what I do, just use it to subsidize whatever you -really- enjoy doing.
D
The first, last, and only tech news site on the net
Maybe you don't "get very many" interesting projects, but with a bit of creativity one can make a boring job fun.
:)
About half a year ago I got reassigned to my company's testing division (it wasn't entirely involuntary). When my friends found out, they bemoaned my placement in a boring idiot job.
If I'd just done the idiot job I was placed in, then it would have been boring indeed. Instead, I spent my time writing software to automate the process of testing graphical applications on a wide array of different hardware. The project was interesting and fun, and has plenty of future extensions ahead -- all with their own challenges. In short, I love it.
If you wait for an interesting job to come to you, of course you'll find what you do boring, and see the money as your sole motivation. If you make what you do interesting, you'll be able to make money and have fun at the same time. WooHOO!
This is the BS girls love to spew as they chew up guys and spit them out on a regular basis, because they can.
For a second there, i thought he meant Counter-Strike! Glad it's nothing serious ;-)
Finish the semester and take a break.
Finish the degree and take a break.
Decide what you would like to do that would be enjoyable, make money, and use your skills at the same time. Do open source programming on the side just for the hell of it.
Formulate a long-term plan for getting there. You are not going to start off in a perfect position, but once you set you goals, you should be able to better see how to get there.
I know the feeling.. 'everything's been done before..', 'this is worthless drivel', 'there's no freedom and creativity..' I can't say I've found the answer myself, but one thing that has somewhat re-excited me about computers is the prospect of having my own business and doing whatever the heck I please--and thereby actually having a chance to go out there and change the world. It could even be something simple to begin with, like a Linux based consultant. Or you could come up with a low-tech 'cash cow' that pays your bills while you sit back and relax, let your creativity roam free, play with geek toys, hack hardware and software, write Open Source software, and perhaps prepare for a more intellectually stimulating entrepreneurial pursuit. Hey, you might even come up with a great idea that makes you rich enough to retire early.
Entrepreneurship doesn't sound very good in today's economy, but keep in mind that this is a temporary condition. When the economy does recover, it's going to be a different economy than what existed before the downturn. It's going to be fertile soil for new ideas and fresh thinking. If you really want to get inspired about the future and what kinds of innovations lie ahead that will change the world, I highly suggest you read the book, Natural Capitalism. I don't agree with all of the authors' ideas, but it will certainly set your mind in creative mode. As a brief summary, it proposes that the next economic revolution will be cleaning up / making sustainable / making efficient the technologies and lifestyle created by the industrial revolution. Interesting stuff..
You couldn't figure out what you wanted to do in college... what makes you think that things change once you graduate? The sooner you figure out that you can't plan life the better! You'll finish school and get a CS job somewhere... maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't. The experience will give you some ideas of what you want to do for the next job. Don't worry about being stuck in CS just because that's what your degree is in. Your interests WILL change and you'll have plenty of opportunities to explore those options. Nobody is going to care if you have a CS degree or a Pottery degree or if you got a 2.0 or 4.0 in 5 years, but they will care what you have been doing since then. Figure out what you want out of life (AKA a ton of money and a personal harem! LOL), set some goals, and you'll slowly figure out how to get there. Just don't get tied down in responsibility until you are ready for it or you won't have that flexibility. Think of all those middle aged, mid management people out there, stuck doing basically the same thing for 30 years so they can support the wife and kids, hoping to last until retirement before getting the over 50 axe. That also includes getting yourself into serious debt like everyone else. Bank some money and you'll have more options later. (Note: all this is coming from a 25 year old who's been out in the "real world" for three years. It could be total BS! Seems be working for me though and all the successfully people I know have done the same.)
Get yourself some mad b4r15t4 sk1llz and come to Seattle!
Time to start hacking (again, I presume; most who seem to enjoy this area of endeavor started by themselves. Maybe this is true of any field [?])
No, not the independent variety, but someone in a consulting firm. If you're bright and have decent ideas, you'll quickly pick things up.
When I first got into college, I *knew* I wanted to be a programmer. Hell, I even took CS classes in High School... but by the time I had left college, I wasn't so sure.
I had almost the same feeling as you when I finished school. Then I got a job programming, and it got worse. What I really hated was the lack of human contact and any sense of real urgency. Then a couple of jobs and years later, I stumbled into a consulting/contracting firm.
They liked me and threw me right into the lion's den. The first day of my first project, I was in complete "learn till you burn" mode, and I loved it. I realized that dealing with people and getting to set your own expectations was really motivating me. The second project I had, I got sent out of country to implement something I didn't know for people who didn't know it either... but I picked up the slack and in 2 weeks, I had a basic implementation of their project, outlined. In two months, I had a complete demo of their project.
Some people are real programmers (they choose to interface with computers more than they do with people). Other people (like me, I guess) have the knack for coding, but don't enjoy it so much as solving a real world problem. At least in my experience, as an Engineer/Programmer, that kind of duty isn't entrusted to kids right out of college... but when you're on-site and you're a rubber-stamped expert, you have to prove yourself to real people.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
Can't hang with the big dogs. Go back to MIS, slacker.
I went to school for 4 years studying architecture. I only realized in the last year that it wasn't for me. That though I often liked doing it, I simply was NOT talented at it. It was humbling to realize that many people that were less intelligent than me in a general sense were much more talented at architecture. And truthfully the idea of a lifetime spent in charette (an extended period of time spent in the studio cramming in all the final presentation work) filled me with dread.
I got so depressed I almost dropped out of school. Came pretty close, but it was my last year so I finished up. Spent two years after that partying, relaxing, getting fed up with pizza delivery and waiting tables, and trying to figure out how I would be happy spending the rest of my life. C'mon, you don't know yourself when you're 17 or 18 and go to college. You don't know what you'll like. Don't think you have to justify the money spent on school by throwing the whole rest of your life away on something you don't like.
You don't have to lose your love of the subject. I'm still transfixed by beautiful buildings and spaces. But you may not be cut out for a life working in what you love. Sucks.... but it's very possible. I decided on programming (always been interested in computers but never really followed up on it) went to CLC for a bit and discovered that I had a strong natural talent for coding. My mind's just good at it. I don't love it per se, but I like being good at what I do.
So..... take some of those silly aptitude tests. Be open to other possibilities. A CS background is very helpful in a ton of areas.
All you people who are suggesting "Just take some time off!" "Get away from the keyboard for a while."
My question to you is, how the hell do you survive??? I'm sorry but if I weren't working, I wouldn't be eating. money==food. And as any person knows, (this piece of knowledge applies to ANY human. Even the non-geeks!) after not eating for a couple of weeks or so, suddenly life doesn't seem so bad... oh wait you're dead!
So to all you people suggesting to get away, how do you suggest someone does this? And still has money for such things as rent and food? That's my question to all you.
Let me first say, stick it out if you want to work in computers. The bachelors degree does mean something. Recently I starting working in an AIX unix devision. I'm a Systems Programmer 1 instead of a Senior System's Programmer because of my lack o' sheepskin. I don't mind... the sheep skin is not far off now. But in the first weeks of my job I found a love of coding that I didn't have in the class room. I was solving problems, writing custom solutions, and doing good work. It felt good to do something real. So, stick it out... you're more than half way there.
As to what to do to keep your self sane through the next few years, look at Student Government and Clubs. Most universities support rich environments for co-cirricular and extra-cirricualr activities. My college is sporting a robust Linux User Group and an Anime club I've been proud to help found and lead. The experience of being a student leader (while scoffed by many) is invaluable, and challanging. It's also rewarding to look at your institution, see problems, and be in a position to fix them!
Good luck, and may the Source be with you!
If I can't see it in Lynx I'm not interested.
Hehe, I've been there literally about a dozen times and I just graduated (and am now keeping on in grad school for CS (and approaching another burn out point)).
Most times that I've lost the drive to read CS documents, or code my own stuff, or even just go the extra step on a project, it's because I start to evealuate deep questions like the meaning of life etc etc. I'm mean, really, why are we here? If evolutionary theory is used to state our origin, then we have no assigned purpose, we have to make our own.
The fact of the matter (as I see it) is that our purpose pretty simple! We were made by a God (and if you don't agree with me here, humor me for a few lines and move on), we broke away from that relationship way back in Eden and are now adrift with out purpose.
If you think about it, life really is meaningless unless there is some purpose assigned to us, and that was to prosper in a creation made just for us by God! It's a neat idea, and one that is very true and very believable, both scientifically, historically , and by my personal experience! Quiet seriously, man-kind has this paradigm that if something is "good enough" that alone madates that it really isn't good enough and could be better. When the Bible says we were made in the image of God, that's part of the deal! God made us, not because we made existance "better" but because part of God's nature is to create, and we reflect that part of God! That's the major drive for me in CS, that there is all this computational mystery that was put into this universe and it's just sitting there to be discovered and put to good work!
Granted, all this comes with believeing the Bible (which I highly encourage folks to check out, if they haven't and read some books for and even against it) and you tell me if it doesn't make a whole lot of sense!
Some great examples are things like quick sort and merge sort. They are just NOT intuative, but are really powerful bits of computation! Check out 3d redering and how many people like to build their own little worlds. AI is has given some amazingly powerful computational tools that just do cool stuff, but with purpose, and it's all the nature of the creator coming out in us.
There was once a discussion about "would the world be the same apart from the fall claimed in Christianity?" and the answer "kind-of."
There would not be the problems of age and death and virus' and terrorists, but there would still be space, and the creative part of use would want to go there! Not because we wanted to conquer God or visit him (as was the case with the Tower of Bable) but just to do it! How proud do we make the God that made us when we use the minds he gave us to fly higher and faster than birds or to do mathmatics faster than he gave us power todo with just our minds?
Some folks think Chirstianity is anti-intellectual. These people are mistaken. It's given me a reason to return to my work after every failure, every boring semester, every burn-out after a project. It's the only solid reason to get up in the morning that survives all logical attacks. It just makes sense!
Sam
Consider yourself fortunate to be able to get a college education in CS. Make your life and career what you want it to be, sitting around waiting for someone to make it more "exciting" will get you no where.
I've always felt that you should do what you like, and do what you're good at. Much of the time, the two go hand-in-hand. It's better to make less money and be happier than vice versa.
I'm a CS major, graduating at the end of the year, and I really love it. But I think that a lot of people get into it because their parents and friends tell them it'll make them a lot of money (which isn't necessarily true), then find out that they have no aptitude with computers and are completely screwed. I once knew someone who went into Mechanical Engineering because a psychic told them to. Ridiculous. These are generally the same people for whom CS is the fifth major they've tried. I'm not saying that's what's happening to you, nor am I saying that everyone who picks CS after trying several other majors sucks at it, I'm just making an observation that's not meant to be a rule.
-k
Tastes like burning! - Ralph Wiggum
Check out FatBabies before deciding on a career in the game industry. There are pluses, but there are a lot of minuses. For one thing, when you look at game companies and see a bunch of programmers in their 20's your first thought might be that that's a good thing because everyone is fresh and excited, but then you start to realize that a lot of people get burnt out of the game industry by the time they are 30. It's hard to find anyone over 30 in game companies, and most of them are pretty cynical.
And forget about games as an artform -- game publishers are the most conservative businessmen on the planet. Not conservative in the sense of right-wing christians, but conservative in the sense that they will only back a game that they know will make them money. That's why out of the hundreds of games that come out every year, only a couple stand out as unique. If you go into the game industry, you will most likely be putting out one of the hundreds of clones (assuming your game isn't shit-canned before release, which happens to about half of them).
Listen to this guy; he's smart.
I have been involved in recruitment for companies in the past, and I have seen the total disregard for being reasonable often exhibited by managers (even good ones, if they are just being hassled about interviews when they have better things to do -- like their job). Amongst other things, I have spoken to a number of people who had dropped out part-way through a CS degree that was "boring them" or "not teaching them anything". There were some prima donnas who had a rude awakening coming to them, but several of them were obviously quite bright and just genuinely not finding much to keep them interested. None of them ever got an interview, even with my recommendation, because the view of others higher up the tree was that if they were really that bright, they'd have stayed on and finished the course.
As for taking a break, I agree it can be useful, but be careful not to stray too far from the CS path. If you do, it's going to be hard to get back in if you ever want to; knowledge dates faster in our industry than just about everywhere else. Time out of the loop could seriously count against you when you come to applying for jobs.
I know how depressing academic courses can be; I used to love maths, but by the end of three years studying nothing else, I was getting seriously depressed. Now that I've finished my formal studies, and a CS diploma afterwards that gave me much the same feeling at the end, I actually find myself interested in the subjects again. Without the pressure -- "you must do everything on this syllabus, and you haven't got time to do much else" -- it's a different world. I've actually found myself going back to read notes on some of the more interesting courses I did -- things I barely looked at way back then, and never did exams on -- and I do it purely out of interest. Now I'm not studying it just to answer the next problem sheet, it's a totally different feeling. Keep the faith.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I can relate since I am in a similar predicament as well. When I was in high school i loved programming and the idea of game designing. I am gonna graduate with a CS degree this spring with just above 2.0 average. A lot of my grades got shot from me becomign disenchanted with the CS program and my personal boredom with school after 2 1/2 years. I use to love CS, i still do to a point but the way the program is taught at my school is more like programming for ITM majors. there is no push by the profs to make the students be creative or ingenuitive in their work, just a bunch of brainwashing so we can be code monkeys with our black ties and white shirts and our cubicles. But Im gonna fight it out and I do things that I love. I put my own little twist on my projects even though the professor might not like it. On the side I work on what I want to be in life (A writer and movie and director) and I study the CS topics that interest me the most (computer interfacing, genetic algs, AIs, quantam computing). I have found this approach to help me alot and has made my last year as a CS major very tolerable. I like CS. I don't how I have been taught it. But I apply it how I see fit in my life.
_Kayser_
broberts@cbu.edu
You take magic pills and live happily ever after? Even if the cause is depression isn't the problem still the same?
I'm slightly manic-depressive myself, sometimes I get hyper and think that computers are real fun again, I'll probably do a project for myself and be quite enthusiast about it. I'll sleep 3-4 hours a day spending 8 hours at work and then nearly as much home working on my project. But then I'm back to normal again and hate my job (and life) again.
CS itself doesn't have to be mind-numbing either: it can be about working with people, about writing, about graphic design, and lots of other things.
What Do You Do When CS Isn't Fun Any More?
:D
Stop playing CS and try Q3UT instead. Its got nicer weapons, a better looking engine, much better level design and runs great under Linux (well God - this is Slashdot after all).
See you in Rommel
Nailer
If you are tired of writing code, you could always get a job at the USPTO reading and examining other people's code. They need good CS people right now.
What a girly man you've become.
You don't like it because someone is forcing a little bit of structure on you.
I can only imagine the "joy" you'll bring to a manager someday.
You'll the the whiner who constantly bleats about "this work is beneath me".
Do us a favor and drop out now.
Definitely don't go to law school. :-)
Myself I've always regretted getting out of the service. That was a blast.
Am I the only one who thought he was talking about playing Counter Strike, not Computer Science?
I must play too many games. Wait, I don't play enough.
OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
well, almost 10 years ago...I decided at the time that college was just long enough to make you hate what you do the rest of your life...:-) I ended up graduating anyway (which was a very painful process at the time), and wishing I had taken more electives. (ceramics was more fun than I thought!)
At the time the job market was pretty bad and after a short low paying job at a game company I did QA (quality assurance) for 3 or 4 years...and it took that long to realize that I didn't hate programming anymore and that's when I got back into it again. Now I work for a subcontractor at NASA.
I was in your shoes about two years ago. I was out of computers, thinking the curriculum at my school was bogus and my professors were know-nothing morons. I stopped using a computer for about 15 months. But then, I switched schools, and got back into it, little by little, when I discovered UNIX and all the wonderful things it had to offer. Then I found out about Open Source and it was like my most secret desires had been answered. Coming up on first an Atari and then DOS and Windows-based PCs, I never thought I would get to see implementations of really hard problems, such as they don't talk about in CS classes. So I picked things that I was interested in, and used up all 5 of my CS electives doing independent studies with the only professor here worth a damn. That was what really got me back into it:
:-D
a) I could do what I was really interested in,
b) I had a professor who knew C and UNIX very well,
and,
c) I had a massive online store of "sample" code through which to "pick the brains" of other world-class developers.
All you have to do is find the part of CS you are most interested in, and work on that. Forget those boring assignments of making ERDs and computing the effeciencies of two sorting algorithms: think of them as paying your dues.
And for God's sake, stop using Windows. That gets me down, too.
That statement my not be true for every one, but it does have some aspect of truth to it. There are things about curriculums that always makes some things less likable. And, probably more often than not, it's because the educators don't exactly know how to welcome students to the business world, so they just teach stuff from the book. I would suggest that, in most cases, students learn to hate what they used to love because instructors fail to show them something new with it. Instead of showing interesting and valuable applications of the knowledge they teach, they simply teach it and expect the students to see through to the other side.
You and I both know that it doesn't quite work that way (well, maybe for a few of us). Another thing everyone's momma probably said at one time or another is, "You'll appreciate it more if you work for it". Taking the easy path can be gratifying, but that still doesn't take away from the wonderful feeling of knowing that you've earned your keep. That said, it's important to know your work ethic and what you work well with. If you like something but don't work well at it, don't let it escalate above hobby-status.
Then again, this is just my advice to keep myself straight. I don't know if it will help you any, but it's here for you in case it might. :)
There's always a market for people who can write a readable, comprehendable technical document. The pay isn't too bad either, I hear.
Moo
I wrote:...Tomb Taider...
-----
reply was: Is that a game about dead potatoes?
---
Ok, I'm going to go hide somewhere in shame, just as soon as I stop laughing at myself.
Heck, I've said it before..."I laughed, I cried, I posted to slashdot to show my ignorance."
And my typos... {snicker, chuckle...sniffff...bwaaahahaha}
(the people in the lab are looking at me strangely...as I break out into more peals of laughter... thank you, balthan, you've given me the best chuckle I've had all month. And it is my own stupidity.)
Using that as a segue to put this further on topic I have to say I agree with the majority of the posters so far:
You do sound depressed, if it runs in the family then I advise you to get some form of help.
It may however be "doldrums" or a low point. Get away from programming, because "too much of a good thing" *will* burn you out eventually.
take it from a former webmaster who knows all too well.
There were comments of "Get a girlfriend". I did not want to say it for fear of sounding like a complete arse, but, yeah it is a good idea.
I won't lie, I lucked out when I went into CS and found a *female* geek in a "Computer Logic and Architecture" class.
I'll say it was quite a boost to the grades and a bruise to the ego to have GF/classmate/lover who had more smarts and drive than I did.
In pascal and C/C++ we were dead even ability wise, but in assembler...holy s**t she blew me out of the water.
Sorry for the trip down memory lane, but my point is: before you the follow the advice of "get a girlfriend", consider the question of the type of girlfriend to get:
a) I think the vernacular is "Fsck Buddy"
b) Someone to challenge you and perhaps re-ignite you desire for CS
c) Someone to take your mind off of all things 'puterized.
If you ignore all that, cool, but you are smart for asking here because the best advice is given by strangers.
So as a stranger who has gone through what you are going through now, I say:
1) Finish your degree (you're almost there).
2) Take a break and vegatate for a week (don't think if possible)
3) If you can travel, do so. If you can't afford it, go over to the CIS/MIS dept's...you'll get the same feeling of being in a different world just from hanging around (no offense to CIS/MIS peeps).
Cheers and best wishes, dude!
GISboy.
If it is not on fire, it is a software problem.
Get your CS degree, then major in culinary arts. I can't think of anything funner then making good food all day.
1 tequila 2 tequila 3 tequila floor
1. Read Abelson and Sussman's "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" and learn scheme. Learning to program in languages with a higher level of abstraction is a great cure for the programming doldrums. The downside is that you may never want to program in java or C++ again.
2. Finish school and start contributing to an open-source project that interests you. Nothing sucks the fun out of any activity more than having some authority figure tell you you have to do it or else. I never took a single CS course in college and now I'm teaching computer science at Caltech. I love CS and programming largely because I learned it on my own.
Obviously, your story has reached many people, including me. I.e.: There were 753 comments when I read the story.
;) I don't know what I should be looking for, but as usual it's going to seem so obvious once I found it.
To start off, maybe I should relate my story.
Once upon a time I was this happy, knowledge hungry computer geek. I went to the equivalent of technical college in computer science. About half way throughout I realised that I wasn't happy. The students weren't thought how to think and analyse, they were being brainwashed with a recipe to make a computer program to suit the needs of a client.
I wanted more. I didn't need to have the technical know how chewed-up for me (Mind you, I can chew my own grub!). There was something missing? I finished my degree with the best grades of all the students. I graduated last year. I got a well paying job at an engineering company. I worked as software developer. My biggest project was on M$ Access. After my probation period, they offered me a full time, permanent job with a reasonable salary.
I didn't like what I did, and it wasn't because of Access and the "M$ Lovers" that surrounded me. There was something missing. I decided to go back to college to get the courses I need to get an engineering degree in computer science.
So here I am now, dragging myself out of bed every morning trying to convince myself that I should at lease try not to flunk all my courses.
There is something missing in my life and it's not technical knowledge. Maybe it's spiritual, maybe it's just an after teen crisis
End of story. I don't know if you are feeling the same thing that I am. I'm now pretty sure that, for me, it's something really profound, that kind of thing that completely changes your life. The only advice I can give you is the one that I should put in practice:
Live! Be free and young! Screw consequences and enjoy being what you are.
BTW: It's so much easier to give advice then to receive it.
One last thought : Maybe getting a degree MUST NOT be a goal but a tool to reach YOUR goal.
I have experienced your current stage. I graduated with a BS in Computer Science and am starting my Masters. I have also been in the work force for 3 years developing applications in ANSI C, Visual Basic and Java. I work with people from other companies every day. I get to implement new features into my company's software. I have worked on new projects altogether. I also like programming as a hobby. I program whatever makes me happy. Sometimes you loose "your drive" but that is normal in life. Find what you like most about computer science and implement what you like most. If you can't find anything you like about CS then find something else.
I feel the same way, but I got out much earlier. I switched my major to International Business, and look foreward to to it. The classes are easier... there are more girls... I get to take a load of language classes (once one masters C, then Chinese, Japanese, and German are nothing...). The best part is the world travel. I've done a minimal amount of overseas travel, and I simply love it... can't wait until I'm out working...
-------------------------
It is the monkied monkey that monkies with another monkey's monkey. Monkey.
ive been doing it 20 years & i still think its fun, well sometimes
maybe you just went into the wrong line of work?
But if you think you are destined for CS cheer up ... you need years of experience to truly get it, no matter what flashy little applets you're putting together today. When it does click, a whole new world opens up.
I've been doing software for over 25 years now. There have always been corners that I would dread working in (COBOL 25 years ago, Windows today), but there have always been more niches that I could get excited about than I ever had time to work in.
That isn't to say that I haven't occasionally been cornered into working on some boring projects or dated technology in order to collect a (better than average) paycheck, but I have generally found my way into working with some cool new bleeding edge stuff sooner or later. My wife is on her second or third career (depending on how you count); I've enjoyed several within the field of CS.
Oh come on!
I'm a final year Compsci at Cambridge University. I have to say that the course is much much more tedious than I expected, and it's not as fun as I expected studying a subject in such detail when I used to love to fiddling with related things.
Believe it or not, University courses *are* boring... Just wait 'til you get out into the real world and rock!
Seriously, the world needs fewer people doing jobs they don't enjoy.
.com days. Work can be fun, but not necessarily every day.
I've been in CS for a long time. Most of the people I've known burn out and never come back.
There's nothing wrong with realizing you want to do something else. I've had jobs that paid well and I hated, and jobs that paid ok and I liked. You should always do the job you like - it is very important.
On the other hand, expecting your job or career to provide the meaning of your life means you need other interests. The whole concept that work = fun is a hanger on from the
You might want to consider a hybrid career - maybe something like law and CS or business and CS or something like that. There's a lot of demand out there for such things. Just because you find it's not the most exciting doesn't mean you can't use it.
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
...just a year ago. My solution: I went to law school. Law is pretty easy for anyone w/a hard science/engineering background, and the law schools love having such students - makes them more "diverse." Add to that the starting salary of an IP lawyer is HUGE, and you can still put that technical education to work for you. :)
...telling a prospective CS grad to go for his Ph.D in CS or telling him to start a porn site.
From what I get, the exact reason why he loves Computer Science so much was the freedom to code for himself (intrinsic motivation, as a psych major would say). There's something fulfilling about taking your own time to code your own tool. It may be something as silly as watching a ball bounce around the screen to something as complex as writing an OS in x86 assembly, but it motivates people. Suddenly you stick them in a college environment where the emphasis is not on, "What you want, when you want it," but instead, "Here's the schedule we have to maintain and it's your job to keep up with it." You can't choose your pace, and what's worse, you're following someone elses priorities.
So for Pete's sake, don't tell him to go and get a Ph.D in something he's lost interest him. You're only scraping away whatever interest he has left in CS.
Here's what you do: go back to your schedule of learning. Don't let others dictate your methods of learning. The fact of the matter is that you DO have that sheet of paper in your hand that says you're a CS major. Leave it at that, and try to rekindle (if a spark still remains) you're enjoyment for CS by doing it as a hobby rather than a priority.
Honestly, this is normal. Most of my friends in college in the CS field who went into it because they loved it as a hobby ended up despising it in the end. Those I know who started fresh in the program because it intreagued them (who didn't fail their first 100 level class) enjoyed it to the end. Again, I think it just has to deal with how you learned CS in the first place...if you spent years of studying it on your own time at your own pace, it gets annoying to have someone else tell you that you now have to face priorities.
No this is not a coy answer. CS is just as fun as it ever was, so something about you has changed. Maybe your interests are changing, and if so, that's good. Find out what you want to do and do it.
On the other hand, losing interest in the things you used to love to do can sometimes mean that you're depressed.
I don't know you. I don't know your situation. But you should seriously evaluate the possiblity that you might just be depressed, and with the right help all the old things will start looking new again.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
"I never let my schooling get in the way of my education." - Mark Twain
That is a quote that I have taken to heart. I am in the same predicament as many of you out there. Before coming to college, I expected to shine in the spotlight. However, now as a Junior at a prestigious university, I'm pulling a 3.0 GPA and ~3.2 CS GPA. After the first year, I was totally disenchanted by the whole idea.
One major issue that I have found is that universities focus quite highly on theory, rather than implementation. In the long run, this is a better method of teaching, but for the short term, it is quite boring at times. Unlike other people in the CS department, I have a slight advantage in that I have learned the implementation before learning the theory from the years of part time jobs and side projects.
One thing that you must remember is that CS stands for Computer Science, that is IT IS A SCIENCE. Much of what computer science is is to guide you towards a research position.
Again, that quote by Mark Twain has helped me get through this. To me, school is just a process that I have to get through. However, it only fulfills part of my "entire" education. The rest of my education, I get on the internet, through reading technews, white papers, and slashdot (sorry..had to say it). I also focus a lot of my energy on my own projects and enhancing my knowledge in the latest technology and/or programming language. My own personal website (www.johnia.com, shameless promotion) is my own testbed to test out new technology and to demonstrate my CS knowledge. [In fact, I have been given job offers just by showing interviewers this website].
So what I would recommend is that, school is important, but not as important as your own education. Use your time wisely to set you apart from the rest of the CS dept. Also use your time wisely to enjoy what you like to do. Remember back to the days of when you created your first program and try to revive that again.
But I hope this helps. And don't worry, you're not the only one to feel this way.
_______________________________
"I'm not Conceited...I'm just a realist..."
Seeking to impress others with your technical
prowess seems rather short sighted.
However, what you are experiencing now is sort of required for the fun to commence. At least for me it is not the programming which is fun. It is the translation of a conceptual solution to a problem into something which is at some level tangible. Ones success in that (fun) endeavor is proportional to ones ability to bring tools to bear on the problem space.
I doubt that carpenters get as much joy from ripping wood as they do from seeing that wood become a table of their own design.
It's better to begin the right thing than finish the wrong thing, so if this is really the wrong thing for you, then by all means, start planning you change of direction NOW, and act on it daily. But there are some caveats to that principle.
.... if you can finish out what you're currently doing and do a good job of it, then finish.
:)
Most of them have to do with the fact that it's often hard to find out what you really want to do -- as you now know. And your desires and ambitions change as you grow as a person. Your information is imperfect and subject to change. In other words, you can't plan your own satisfaction perfectly.
Also, most of us have trouble beginning the right thing until we've finished the wrong and can lay it to rest. Leaving a degree unfinished is like trying to clean your house by simply leaving.
But here's a couple of principles that I think are good:
1) Do whatever you're currently doing well. Finish it if you can. This wins you respect and credibility, which are as helpful for moving laterally from career to career as anything else. If you find that you get to a point where you can't do what you're doing well, then it's time to move -- or at least take a vacation -- very soon. BUT
2) Allow yourself periods of lateral drift in your life. They may be weeks, months, or years. They may involve travel, moving to another place, trying a series of entry-level jobs, reading widely, giving time to good causes.
3) Develop a spirituality. Everyone has their own idea about what that constitutes, and so do I: a community which follows practices, the study of religious texts, and prayer/pondering/meditation. Find something which makes you more alive AND a more humane, charitable, compasionate person.... and which gives you an inner voice that can guide you better than slashdot can.
4) Don't try to plan out your whole life. Just continually be learning new skills and filling your toolbox with things that can help you do things later. Make changes when you need to make changes.
Libertarianism is rich wolves and poor sheep playing gambler's ruin for dinner.
I'd say the go "see a therapist" advice you see here might be premature. Not that that'd hurt, but when you get to midterm time and the dawn of a new day means nothing but more work, that really does suck, and it doesn't necessarily mean you're depressed. And I'd hold off on the Prozac.
:-} ), but someone who also know what's really important to you yourself, not just a-computer-science-student-in-your-position.
I would, however, try to find people who can relate to both your personal take on things, and to your professional prospects. That is, someone who knows how the decisions you make could affect your possibilities as a computer scientist (or anything else!
Also, you're not at all alone in feeling worried about knowing what to do. I started grad school 2.5 years ago, realized within 1 year that I don't want to be a scientist, and have struggled a lot with what to do next. Still don't know. Heavy stuff. I try (not always successfully) not to dwell on it.
Finally, just getting out of college and getting some job or other (preferrably not an intense one, so you have time to do other things) is a pretty good way to do some exploring - you just find stuff that you like to do, and often you can figure out how to make a career of that.
Good luck, and don't worry too much. There's plenty of fun things to do in this world, and plenty of time.
Hey, I majored in Psych and became literally, clinically depressed my senior year. I tried to try to get into graphic arts, but I couldn't get health insurance, so I worked as a Therapist for five years. In Jan 2001, I enrolled in a "Desktop Support Specialist" class at BU's Corporate Ed Center. I have not found a job yet, my wife is leaving me and selling our house, so I had to move back to my parents house. Now I prowl dark alleys, waiting for idiots like you to come along and "WACK!"
I say get revenge on your enemies while you can, and take out your frustrations on random victims, and, with any luck, some gun-toting geek will put you out of your misery!
All you bastards suck! Bite me!
It seems to me that over the last few years there has been a flood of people into the industry. Unfortunatly this has the same affect that it always does, you end up with people in a job because of the hype at the beginning. Myself, I am in it because I love what I do. How many of you have been to the doctor and got a nurse or a doctor that was in it strictly for the money? You can see the difference between the people who love it, and the people who bought into the hype.
If you find that you are not interested any longer, then by all means get out. The upshot to this for the rest of us is that the market will level back out and salaries will start to go back up, and then the hype starts all over again. It's a vicious cycle.
Another issue is due to the massive influx of less than enthusiastic people, the product suffers. We need more people like Linus, who do what they do for no other reason than the doing. All of the college grads who slide by are lowering the bar, and that does not benifit anyone.
In other words "Get out of my pool!!!"
So, my plan is to apply to law school. I'm still very interested in tech related constitutional issues. This may be something to think about for you as well....IP, contract law, first amendment stuff with filter, there is really a lot going on an a lawyer that understands this stuff should be kind of useful.
So, just an idea....maybe go into a field that doesn't pay very well. You live like a dirt poor college student now, just keep doing it for a while and save aggressively so you can switch to something else later with no regrets.
They look for experience. Doesn't everybody know that?
How else could I, with no other credentials than an Associates in Machine Tool Technology, get to be a SysAdmin at age 22?
I started out as a just night-shift machinist, and over 4 years I had demonstrated to the powers that be that I was self-educated and capable of many useful services. Now I have the trusted position at the top of the food chain. (It really pisses off the older guys that went to school that I am their boss, even though I am only a machinist that never even finished high-school.)
Anyway, the guys that tend to have a problem with meritocracy also tend to have MCSE's, (so they are easy to pick off =8), and I tend not to hire them if they like to boast about their "credentials". In my experience, a four-year degree is worth about as much as 1 year of real work experience.
Sorry to burst everyone's bubble...
Now I'm one semester away from graduation, with a 3.5 average overall and a lackluster 3.0 in CS, and I'm liking it less and less every day.
... shoot for B's and spend all the extra time that you would be normally be cramming doing something fun like smoking pot or drinking beer. Then, get a job you think sounds interesting and learn everything you can about it. It's a totally different world. A much better world.
Don't compare school and the real world as they are very different entities. I spent many a night in the CS labs thinking the same things. I also finished with a measly 3.2 average in CS. I hated CS and dreaded spending my entire career doing it.
Guess what? No one cares about your GPA. It is irrevelent. No one cares how well you can bubble sort, whatever. Its how you *think* that matters and its *thinking* that's really fun. In school, exams and homework are planned drudgery written by some hack professor.
Since I've starting working, I've actually had fun as a Developer (6 years). At times, it has sucked, but that's the case with any job. But, overall its fun. What makes it fun IMHO is *thinking* and *learning* on my own. I have actually enjoyed some of the crap my employeers have shoveled at me (such as *cringe* COBOL) just because I new absolutely nothing about it.
My advice: Just get through school. Don't try to get A's
CS is one of the hardest majors you'll find, but def. rewarding, financial and mentally. After going through intense courses about Automata and discrete math (whats so discrete about math?), your mind is just in kick ass shape. You can understand the most interesting and difficult concepts and you are able to analyze things that many just cant even begin to imagine. People will pay you to do the most mundane and easiest things. I charge $35/hour to teach HTML to elementary school kids. Its great, they have so much trust in me and they should. Stick with it, you will be a better geek if you do!
100% Insightful
Lemme get this straight - you're claiming to be burt out, and you haven't even held down your first real job yet?? Get a job, get yourself ten years of experience and after the backs of your ears are dry - THEN we'll talk. You've spent your life thus far cooped up in an artificial environment. Time to discover the real world and find out how things really work.
Medievalists!! Far away from computers and technology!
:)
(and lots of computer people *g*)
Serious - it works for me - most of the time
Of course I went broke trying to go through classes (ended up leaving 2nd year because it got too expensive) and have been scraping by ever since - but don't let that stop you from quitting *g*.
*heh*. I'm thinking seriously of looking into another area - but everything modern's so impossibly boring... *deep sigh*
(although I've suffered from serious bouts of depression since the end of 1st year univ so... *g* But still, join the SCA!!!!
oh wait. Ignore me and join the SCA. That's it
Any job or activity can be a miserable trudge or a delightful experience. It's the environment that makes the difference. It helps to understand yourself, your strengths, where you need support, what motivates you and how you can motivate others. Of course, it's always nice to be doing something that your skills and talents support. but even that wears thin if your butting your head against an organizational wall.
;).
So, at this stage in your career make sure you don't get stuck in any single environment for long, do several very different jobs (even if all technically oriented) in different styles of organization - large, small, flat, hierarchical, new, old, fluid, rigid--well, you might skip that one unless you get drafted
But it sounds like what you need is a change RIGHT NOW. And if you are stuck in school and have to finish, do some volunteer work helping someone. It works wonders for the self-esteem.
To hear the gods laugh tell them your plans.
Management!!!!!
Become a Pointy Haired Boss!!!
Or be a technical manager, so you are half manager, half programmer. When the cool projects come up you can take your pick. Same with new technologies.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
When I feel like that, I watch the movie Hackers. It always inspires me.
work is called 'work' because it is not necessarily fun...
if it was fun, it would be called 'play'
Looks like your building a "Weekender." How's it going? I was personally thinking about the Pocket Crusier for a few months now, but I've not made up my mind. I've done some sailing, but this would be my first building experience, other than an One Sheet Skiff.
As soon as you get even an inkling of a project idea for yourself, expand it into an impossible goal and don't rest until you have reached it. That's what I spend all of my time doing... Coming up with ideas, that is. Not reaching them... but, it keeps the flames alive.
Question
http://www.ironfroggy.com/
Join Unreal Tournament then :-)
We're now left with dot-coms that are holding on for dear life trying to "maybe make that profit thing we were talking about" and software companies trying to convince anyone that their software is the "solution". It's like every software company in the world about four years ago said "we're going to make software to solve problems no one has yet, but they'll buy it" and no one was game.
So take a look at the situation. There are the big companies who were never really affected by the problem, because they've always had a following. These companies would be Microsoft, Sun Microsystems, Cisco, International Business MAchines, Apple, etc. They didn't have to try to tackle a huge market, mostly they created it. So to get into the high tech industry means you're going to have to find a company that existed before the dot-com bang, start your own company either related to high tech if you can find a use for yourself, or not, or you can work in the public sector. It's sad to say but going to school and getting an education so you can get a job is old advice and isn't realistic anymore. People should be taught to start their own businesses which is why we all came to America in the first place. If you are fearful of not being able to get a decent job after college and you maybe want some options send me some mail and I can give you some insight. Seriously.
"It's here, but no one wants it." - The Sugar Speaker
I had the same problem in school -- I even flunked out, not because I couldn't handle the cirriculum (in fact, it was trivially easy), but because I just didn't care. I didn't see the point of most of it. Once in the real world, I excelled because I did care, because I knew that the businesses I worked in had goals and reasons and I understood them and agreed with them and I could innovate and create and see my work rewarded with more than a letter grade.
Work is much more fun than school. School is like work with training wheels. As for the things that burn people out (bad managers, shitty legacy code, etc), well, find something else do to where you don't deal with those. There are amazing examples of good coders who tackled niche markets with products they made solo and have a living off selling and maintaining a single piece of software, alone. Some people thrive on revamping old code, or fixing architectures, some people enjoy solutions in niche markets. Etc.
And maybe do something else. Change majors.
Travel. Try work.
In a few years, the actual major doesn't matter
as much as your experience.
However, not having a degree can really limit the
range of jobs.
I myself have been in the computer industry now since high school way the hell back in 1984. Its been a serously rocky road. With stints as a fireman putting out technology fires for a company that had a product that they tried to sell to everyone. To instructing at a local college to students that did not want to be there, to working for a small computer store that sold evrything and supported it to, to finally being a real developer working with a large insurer on a project that had real meat and challenge. I now find myself actually needing to go to school because some schmuck higher up on the food chain says If I went to school and paid all the bucks for it then you need to do that also.
At first I thought school would broaden my horizons. Hey everything I know I have learned first hand out of a book and a pile of computers all running, Boy was I wrong, but school has taught me one thing, how to suck up and lick boot and simply look interested as you key in one more inane example of a code test that asked for some numbers and does something useless with it.
Now work is getting like that also and It is really starting to bug the hell out of me. I am 35 and I am NOT getting any younger. If you are tired of IT now then before its to late for you look elsewhere. Its to late to save myself but mayhaps you can make it out of these doldrums.
Lonnie
Dump the idea of being a coder for the rest of your life. Instead, become a sysadmin. Chances are, you'll end up being very good at it with all of your programming background.
A little known secret is that systems administrators have almost all the upside of being a computer programmer, with very little of the downside. And almost none of the pressure, in most cases.
Hack the University VAX, DEC, whatever system and make it look like one of your professors did it...
You will find yourself smiling for a while....
I was in exactly the same situation. Four years of "computer engineering", at a crappy university years behind the times, trying to teach me how to integrate software with hardware.
:-)
I was sick and tired of it by the end of year 1, even though all I had wanted as a kid was to do "something with computers". But after the first few years, I got so fed up with the way it was taught and the uselessness of the education that I had a severe case of antipathy against anything CS-related.
Then my first internship. Bay Networks. For some freakish reason it was a networking assignment, not in the line of computer science 'pur sang' or even computer science. I learned the wonderful world of IP, routing, switching, ATM, Ethernet, Token Ring, , all the beautiful stuff that didn't have their roots in CS as much as being an alongside part of it. At least, that's the way it was viewed in that world. And because of that, I liked it.
My education turned out to be less and less useless as I got on with my career in networking. I managed to get a graduation position and finished my degree - probably the wisest and most relieving move I made during my career. Not even obtaining my CCIE (hopefully, soon, if the fsck'ing proctor will be reasonable this time) will be as good as that was. And although the education hasn't got much to do with my current job (network consultant/engineer), I keep on finding out that in fact those years were not totally useless.
I have no use for the skill of knowing how a C-compiler works. The practice I had in tracking a bug in a pile of code, though, helps me in finding errors in a network now. I never make a calculation using the Calculus and other kinds of maths I had any more. I do, however, make use of the ways they forced me to think while teaching me those subjects.
So, in short: The education will be good for loads of other stuff then just hacking code. Nowadays, I'm doing the l33t3st stuff (in my opinion, anyways) with my job and loving it (and, yes, making the big-ass salary). It's all I hoped to do, in spite and because of the fact that it is NOT computer-science. And if you want to invent a new wheel: Write an RFC! You'll just need the experience first
I got tired of being on the phone all day with support from the companies of the different packages we were trying to use together.
Then I realized what I liked most about programming was making stuff people could use. Then I realized a lot of software out there is technically good but unusable. So I started working towards becoming a Usability Engineer.
I still dabbled in programming on the side, but I was much happier with a new focus
Earlier this year, I was on the verge of burning out and immediately realizing this, I picked up other things. I had 0 knowledge about cars, but decided I would learn, so I started learning how to fix cars and from there got into car performance which meant drag racing. I went back to studing Japanese and also recently have had a sudden intrest in mathematics again. I have done very little programming this year, 10,000-15,000 lines of code compared with like 100,000 i did the years before. and yet, I am very happy, and now when I code I code cuz I want to, my life doesn't depend on it, tho I still work my computer job, I am happy to know that I can get a job as an auto mechanic making $50,000 or more a year.
Yes, it's completely irrelevant to imagine the absolutely impossible event of CmdrTaco not being gay. Yes, I agree, it's unintelligent.
It's a waste of time to ponder such impossibilities. We should be trolling, instead.
That;s what I did.
Perl gives me a woody.
Anyone else find it weird that this Senior is generating "countless off-by-one bugs?"
.) you 1. don't really have your head in the language and 2. aren't really learning from your mistakes.
I mean, it happens to everyone, but if you are generating "countless" ones (that's acutally a pretty good pun if you think about it . .
On a sort-of related note, I am THRILLED about the current state of the technology industry. I'm SO tired of people who are "in the industry" because it was "the thing" or because "I don't really like computers, but the money is good." Arrgh.
The next guy that tells me that he like MS because they provide job security (because they suck) is gonna be picking up his teeth.
Okay, not really, but I feel better.
-Peter
What do you do when it isn't fun any more, but you'd like it to be?
Do something else. Something that has the potential to pay well. Trouble with CS is that it pays relatively well for the first few years of your career, but it doesn't go anywhere. By the time you are 40, most of the people you went to college with who picked other majors will have overtaken you salary-wise.
Actually, all things get tedious now and then. College is just one of those things you have to suffer through before you actually pick what you want to do. If you're just looking for "hobby" type activity to make you enjoy CS again, try coding a talker (chat room) or a mud. Fairly easy, quite rewarding, and fun. If you actually want your work to be fun, well wait til you get out of college, then just make sure you pick something that won't grow into monotony. Though trust me, in almost ANY job, you get that at some time...the 8 hour, 5 days a week thing just grows dull after awhile.
Magius_AR
my cat's breath smells like catfood.
Once you grasp this... then all will become clear
amen
Try adding Philosophy/Religion/Literature to the CS.....study the two together, and become a Computer Science Ethicist, or help program on that Cyc thingey....or something of that ilk
I wouldn't blame it on CS - by the time I was finished with school, the last thing I wanted to do was participate in anything relating to the school ... once I got into the "real-world" and starting working on non-textbook projects, it got a lot better ... you may just be sick of education ....
calling all destroyers
I say tell CS to take a flying leap...and become a painter.
Thought you were talking about Counter Strike.
The answer is, of course, there is no alternative to Counter Strike...
Get a business degree, like an MBA. Dealing with the suits has it's own set of challenges.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Like.... be a programmer who happens to be a genius in Physics! You think that wouldn't be in demand?
Yup, that isn't in demand. Whatever made you think it might be? Just about every physics major has to be able to program. Ever see any job ads for such people? Me neither.
I got my degree in Physics. I have been making a living in programming ever since.
A degree in a field un-related to the job you are applying for is still worth more than no degree.
Although there are a lot of very bright and capable people without degrees, there are also
a lot of places that will either not hire them
or will take unfair advantage of them.
Once you have the degree, you can persue work in Computer Science, persue work in some other area,
or persue another degree.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
There is a difference. I doubt (I may be wrong) that you're really sick of CS - just of the CS education. By the time you're a semester away from graduating, you probably feel you could do well enough in the real world, and don't need the mind-numbing projects and textbook solutions any more. You might be right - but unfortunately, graduating is a certificate of authenticity.
A person I know has three masters degrees, in three totally different fields, for the three times he changed careers in his life. Engineering, Chemistry, and Law. He said what he was doing before just got boring, so he switched. *shrug* Finish out what you've got going now and give it a try, and if you hate it that much, go learn something else. Paying for it may be a problem, but in theory it is doable.
$0.02
Follow your joy. Do the things that satisfy your soul, but don't let temporary feelings drive permanent decisions.
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
As time passes we go from a knowlegde driven attitude to a money driven att, now when CS as a Science starts to be boring you have to complement it with something usefull and worthwhile. CS can be the key to major succesfull and interesting projects, so apply your knowledge to feed you cravings... (Myself I'm halfway my MBA and with some pretty good ideas..)
I don't want to come on sounding like I think I know everything and I am telling you what to do. So, if I slip and sound that way, please forgive me.
/. feels this way. The logic is this: "if I don't enjoy what I do (my job) then every day would be just another in a career long prison sentence." However, what you are talking about may not have anything to do with this. I think it may have more to do with determination and dedication. These things can only be demonstrated in the presence of frustrating circumstances.
I have always been one to say that it is important to do what you enjoy. I think most everyone who participates on
I really hate to draw an analogy with love and marriage as people seem to have such negative views of these things these days; however I am finding it hard to avoid. Imagine a couple who start seeing each other, fall in love, marry, and divorce at the first sign of trouble. Most people would say that what they showed was not love. People, even those who are in love, can really feel very negative things for each other at times. They are certainly not feeling that gushy feeling that they had when the first stated out. In these times it is their determination and dedication that gets them through.
So, it has not been an entirely smooth road to this career I love. I am flawed. I simply can not do something forever with machine like determination without loosing a little of the emotional oomph that motivated me in the beginning. All kinds of things get in the way. Life happens. The world happens. All these things impact on my motivation and attitude. But, for the career I love, I can not give up. And, in the end, I hope the good, satisfying times outweigh the trying ones.
You have to decide if you really did enjoy what you were doing and are suffering from burn-out. In which case, some perseverance is in order. Many people have posted suggestions about other fresh ways to approach your career. (game programming, for example) If you really think it is a bad match, that you should really have never approached it seriously as a career, you really should consider other career options.
But you are the only one that can make this evaluation. You can ask opinions of people and get their input. But, in the end, you have to do what you think is appropriate.
And don't believe for a minute that there is a right/wrong answer. There are many careers that can potentially make you happy. There is no reason to believe that you were built for only one. You are who you are. You might be programmer Cliff, or Dr. Cliff or whatever you decide to dedicate yourself to doing. But, in the end, you are not your job. You are you. Your job is just something you do.
But... if you ever want to be great at what you do... I mean really great... it takes really hard work. Work that will probably stress you terribly no matter how much you love it. So don't throw in the towel just because you are tired. Love is an active thing. It doesn't just happen. You have to make it happen.
Elucid
A true system of education would take the interests of the learner and support them. It would allow the learner to explore, in his/her own time, all aspects of a given idea. The learner would not only then remember (in the long term) what was learned, but would also enjoy the experience of learning and be excited about futher learning. The current system is not and cannot be like this without significant changes in the fundamental way it is set up.
Right now the best thing to do is to see your "education" for what it is, and then decide what you want to be and do in relation to that. Yes it can be a grind, but if you see it as the game that it is, at least it can be enjoyed and not taken too seriously. Don't see it as a reflection of your geekness or your love of technology or who you are -- it's just a system, and the love that you had for this stuff is always there, and it can be re-discovered. For now, focus on the game at hand, play it as well as you can, have fun, and then follow your passion back into those spaces that you know are really fun.
In school, as in life, when other people get you down, just sing a little song, and you'll feel much better.
.. "Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me. Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me. Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me." ..
.. I've come to think that only the process is fulfilling; there really are no fulfilling goals. There's always something else just beyond your reach that you aspire for.
.. the point is to just find a new perspective and check out the view from there [ if the bills are piling up, getting a silly job could be just as effective - the more things you know you dont want to do, the easier it is to decide what you want to do ].
But if you would like another free lesson, it is this:
Life is about figuring everything out, forgetting/dismissing it, then figuring it all out again.
Of course, people take different paths each time, but they usually come to similar conclusions in the end.
THEREFORE, as long as you're challenged and you enjoy what you're doing/think you're working towards some newly shaped goal, then go for it.
If you're not, then stop what you're doing and do something else. Whether that something else is switching majors, going on a trip, picking up a new hobby/reading new books, playing a game, or just staying up for a while, or sleeping for a while, it doesn't matter
But i will take the time to emphasize this: do this before you continue doing what you don't like, whether it be school or work. Don't commit yourself to 4 or 2 more years of school just because you don't know what you want to do. You still won't know what you want to do when you get out, you'll just have less time to figure it out.
Go to school because you found something you want to do, and you need time/resources to study it.
Work because you know how to do the thing you want to do, and you found a way to implement/commercialize it.
If that doesn't make cents, then read one of the 83823974982189321 other posts. something is sure to "inspire" you.
I disagree. Being a straight A student for the first 12 years of schooling, I figured college wouldn't be bad. I hated it. All 6.5 years of it. I hated every day, and every professor except for 3. I was forced to attend the college I did at first (entering in at age 16), hated the classes, the profs, and I burned out. I managed to slog through, and now I love my career of seven years . I do new and cool things, and use almost nothing I learned in college.
College is a trial to go through, like puberty and wisdom teeth. Your voice doesn't squeak anymore, but it was necessary evil on the path of adulthood.
Just stick it through, and find a place to work that is enjoyable. Worked for me.
I'm a CS undergrad graduating in May, and I went through a similar spell myself. I never got into CS because of the money, I did it because I enjoyed it, it's my hobby and my passion. But, about 3/4 into my Freshman year, I lost all intrest. I was learning nothing, and stopped going to class all together, quickly finding myself no longer enrolled.
As I worked my way back to college, I learned what I really enjoyed, and that was working with people like myself, working on code for fun, and all in all, just enjoying my hobbies. I got back into designing programs, reading lots of stuff (/., books, anything), and just being a total geek.
I eventually returned to college, and took what I learned and applied it to everything. I started doing what I enjoyed, entered programming competitions, made some friends who felt the same as me, and, my biggest achievement, I started a student ACM chapter at my school. Currently, I'm very happy at school, not so much for class, but the the environement of academia. The faculty at my school is totally supportive of what I do, and have provided me with some great guidance. I'd reccomend anyone at college get to know their professors, because they can be your best supporters at times!
Anyways, if you really want to know how to make the most out of college, read Hackers by Steven Levy. That book pretty much guided me along the way when I picked it up 2 years ago. It's a must read for all CS college students.
And one last shameless plug, if you go to URI, there's an ACM meeting in Tyler 126. Check if out!
here we have zoology and english majors who realized they didn't want to run a pooper scooper or collect welfare/teach the rest of their lives but stuck it out. They're my bosses because I decided CS wasn't for me and went back to construction till I got poor. Now I'm getting fat sitting at a desk and spending my fat checks paying down cc debt that I could have spent on a club membership and annual trips to rio if I'd applied myself.
Computers used to be my life after I took a job at a local computer sotre. for the past year I have seen all and fixed all posible compter problems and even seen some very wierd things too. now when I come home I use my computer for 30 minutes a day and maby a few hours on a weekend if I am really bored.
Daddy would you like some sausage?
Also, don't be fooled by the "reports." This is still a field that pays well. One of my former co-workers got laid off with 4 months severance pay, and found another job less than 2 months later.
IANAL... But I play one on
hawk
I faced this problem myself just a year ago, my 2nd year as a CS major. I realized that I loved the classes, but hated to do the actual programming. With the encouragement of a friend who was in the same boat, we both decided to change our majors and keep the CS skills as a Minor. I've been a much happier college student ever since. Yeah it pushed back my graduation by one year, but with this economy, why go looking for a job just yet?
BTW - I switched to Communications, and my friend switched to Business.
Hope that helps you out man, good luck
The Conrey
Its not my 5th Year of College - Its my Victory Lap
Unless you're really not into the technology anymore, stick with it. School is nothing like industry. You may find having a "real mission" changes how you feel. Also, there are lots of types of jobs in which you can use your skills. Not everyone with a CS degree lives in a cube and pushes bits for a living.
That happened to me too...
I had taught myself to program computers in the 4th grade and always thought I would be a programmer when I grew up.
Went to N.A.U. for CSE degree.
The summer between my sophomore and junior I went on a 100 day road trip, vagabond adventure style all around America.
Coming back to college after that made me dread sitting at a desk after all the traveling and free spirits.
I got burned out on CS, and then a bunch of amazing things happened. I was bored and built a water fountain in my dorm room. A really unique color changing optical illusion fountain. I liked it and so did my friends, so I started making more of them. Then I dropped out of school and started up a business of making acrylic bubble fountains. Didn't touch a computer for 2 years, except to make a website for my fountains www.Beyond7.com. I traveled around the country building custom bubble panels for stores, restaurants, galleries, homes, etc. I also got my own commercial shop/storefront. It was a ton of fun.
During that time I got a really great breaking from coding, and after 2 years I started getting some really great ideas for some internet start-up ventures. So I found an investor for my ideas and started coding again. It was great to code again, and I wasn't burned out this time. Mixing my time between coding and building bubble fountains helped keep me refreshed with both lines of work. When I got tired of coding at a desk, I'd go into my bubble fountain shop and use powertools: saws, drills, routers, acetlyene torches, and more. Then after a lot of hard shop work, I wouldn't mind sitting down at a desk to program for a while. Makes for a good balance.
www.Beyond7.com Insane modern art water sculpture.
hilo2u, a COMPRIMISE of the the following ideal. "i love computers, building and programming them". so i worked mostly as an independent consultant. i realized that i love programming but too much of it and it become joyless. i need that creative joy. so i took a job as dir. of tech. for a small network company. an easy job, no heavy thinking, no brain drain, then i started to do more volunteer work... anyhoo, for more then the write way is the right way and email me at yoyomeltz@hotmail.com thanks, dave
Thank god someone said this--this isn't at all off-topic. "Depression" was my immediate reaction reading this question. I hope these aren't lost in the growing sea of posts.
You would not believe how many people are struck down by depression. REAL clinical depression is not anything like people believe, and what's worse, it tends to develop around college age (if it the long term biological kind). Too many people miss this critical change--don't take chances here. Depression is truly a cancer, and it WILL grow and it can KILL. Treat the possibility with that level of severity. Really. No, I'm not kidding even a little bit about this.
Talk to a counselor and your friends. Ask if you've seemed more withdrawn--don't always trust yourself to realize what's happening. Also, make sure you talk to someone who thinks depression could be a problem. No one who hasn't dealt directly with depression knows what it really means, and WAY too many just write it off as "not that bad". Psychologists and psychiatrists are just as bad, too. They have no idea what's going on about depression,so remember that no matter what they sound like, they are not speaking from a position of authority. They can only help YOU decide what to do. Try to talk to someone whom you feel some resonance with; make sure s/he knows what s/he's doing and that you agree. Look up other information--don't trust just one source. Maybe read a little of the alt.support.depression newsgroup. If you find anything familiar there, you should be very concerned.
No one tells diabetics to "tough it out" without the medicine they need to work right. You don't tell people with leprosy to "walk it off". Keep in mind this can be a very real, physical problem.
I've been in the IT (CS, DP, whatever flag they raise, salute it) industry for almost 20 years. I can code in a dozen programming languages. I've worked on platforms ranging from the Z-80 running MP/M as the OS to Windows and Linux on the x86 boxes.
I've been a full-timer salaried employee and a highly-paid software development consultant.
If you want to stay challenged in your career and avoid the shuffling masses of management zombies responsible for most of the private sector development today, go into an R&D environment. Work at a think tank. Most importantly: Don't work in the private sector. It's a soulless endeavor.
Yes, there are good projects out there with good intelligent, funny, and nice people working on them. But that is the exception and not the rule.
Once you get on the money-hamster-wheel, it's hard to get off. Before you sign on the dotted line for a mortgage, a car payment, and all the other material goodies, ask yourself what you'd be happy doing for 20 years. Ask that question of yourself for both sides of your brain: logical and emotional. Coding in the private sector is most often highly riddled with worthless office politics, entrenched corporate empire building, and backstabbing upper management. Trust them as far as you can throw them. There are exceptions, of course, but the really good ones are easily outnumbered by the bad ones.
If you think I'm kidding, ask around and see how many 40-year old developers are still in the business. There aren't many left at all. There's a good reason for that. You'll spend 65% of your time attending meetings and dealing with other administrivia while actual coding is, at best, 35%. The percentage of managers who think code development is an exercise of the fingers and not the mind is astoundingly high.
Finally, ask yourself if you can compete with corporate America's love of H1B visa workers and live off what they make for years on end. A career in CS? Run away! Run as fast as you can to a discipline that our society actually values.
I've had similar feelings for almost a year now. I started in CS because I loved the problem solving challenge along with the reward of creating works of art and the shame with pieces of trash. I made very good grades and worked part time, first in the school's physics lab doing network programming. I got my feet wet with Richard Steven's books, Linux, and a gigabit switch! My next internship was in the corporate world. I learned about vendors and beauracracy (but not how to spell it). I took lead on a very significant project and completed it. I started taking time from school, because I thought it would be equally important to have the practical experience. But it has sucked the life out of me. I've learned that I don't want to spend the better part of my life writing someone's stupid e-whatever app.
I just got back into school full time this semester, but find myself dropping out of my classes. I just don't have the motivation to sit through CS class. It's depressing. It pisses me off. I've worked hard for this and now I have no desire to make it a career. And it always seems so stereotypical that you have to rush through college to get the piece of paper to land head first into a job. That's total bullshit.
I jump around each week to a new topic trying to find a specialty; last week kernel stuff, this week encrpytion, next week graphics. I really want to work on a higher degree, but I want the freedom and liesure to choose what interests me whenever. It's like an obssessive hobby. I'm always frustrated. I want to learn everything. I know that is not possible. But, I don't want to be someone's tool.
It has me so depressed. I'm 22. I'm suppose to be graduating. But now I'm thinking that the only way to preserve my sanity is to move away and change my major. I have no idea what to do. I'm shooting in the dark. But I do know that now , while I am still young, is the best time to take the alternate routes.
So my advice to you is to read "Quarterlife Crisis" (ISBN 1-58542-106-5). It will not solve your problems, but it will help open your mind to new ideas and let you know that you are not the only one with this struggle.
Good luck
I was in the computer field for 7 years. I had a great time being innovative and learning everything possible involving computers, including programming, web design, PC repair, network administration, database implementations, etc. After starting a web business, and 3 years later having that web business not meet my monetary needs, I had to start looking at that job and my life seriously to decide what to do next.
What I realized: Computers did not produce the same utility (happiness) it provided years prior. What was starting to move me was working with people, something that was nearly impossible to do when working behind a computer screen 12-16 hrs/day. It was more of a drain to be innovative, because it didn't leave any energy for the rest of my life (socially, romantically, extracurricularly, etc.)
So, I dropped computers. I have never been this happy. I live life fully, and do what I want to do -- mainly interact with people on numerous levels. I am going back to college and working towards a career in interpersonal empowerment.
I still play with computers... but only on the side, as a hobby. I find a lot of joy in it when it is seen as a hobby; where I only do it because I love to do it; not because I want to get paid, or need to meet a deadline... simply for the love of being creative.
And so all this is to say... do something because you love to do it. You can't force yourself to love a career, much the same way you can't force yourself to love another person. You just do it. You just love that job or that person. There's no effort involved.
If you want to graduate with that CS degree... take on those projects as challenges, not as class assignments. Take them on because they stretch you and pull you; because they cause you to think in a new way and tackle something more difficult than the last problem. If you don't want to graduate with that CS degree... great -- don't, and get something else that leads you to what you love to do.
I was in a similar position when I was in school. I thought I would love CS but I hated it. It was boring, frustrating, and painful. After a long time of soul searching, I decided to become a technical writer. That way, I could still work in a computer-related field and not have to deal with the pain of development. I know enough about computers to make the documentation I write be actually meaningful. While my fiance (a programmer) whiles away his time working 80 hour frustrating weeks of programming and bugs, I only work 40 hours and get to go home to pursue my other interests. Just my thoughts...
it's okay to reflect on life and the choices you make once in a while, but it would be wise now to finish your education, get a job, and see how things go. this happens to over half of the people at the end of their education. what's next, what should i do, i don't want to do this the rest of my life, whaaaa.
life is boring, most of the time nothing happens. get over it, and just live and enjoy the scenery.
yeah yeah i know (Score:-1, Redundant). See if I care.
meneer de koekepeer
To keep things fun write software for YOU. Learn new things and new areas of programming for yourself. Find a new device that you don't know how to code for and learn how to code for it. Do this in your free time. In the mean time, go to class and DO YOUR HOMEWORK. DO IT EARLY, DON'T PUT IT OFF. Turn your CS 3.0 into a 4.0 from now on, there is no reason you cannot get a 4.0 in computer science classes. Can't figure out a programming problem? You didn't give it enough time designing or keyboard time. Work it out. In the mean time, play a video game. BUT, more than anything, write code that interests YOU. You will find the code you write for yourself (1) makes you a better coder for school and (2) the code you write for school makes you a better coder for yourself.
I was pretty bored with CS by the time I was a Junior. Like Wonderless said, the coursework involves writing the same programs written thousands of times by other students. I sorted lists and searched data a myriad of ways. I wrote an assembler, a small compiler, a CPU emulator, and a virtual memory manager. I implemented stacks, queues, linked-lists, B-Trees, etc.
One of my instructors remembered me as a clever programmer and recommended me for a research assistant position in the CS dept. My first task was to write a program to compress contour isoplots. These are the things they lay over maps to show areas with different temperatures, pressures, etc. The work was funded by the Navy and my program compressed some plots over 300-1 (with some distortion though). It was a lot of fun because it was a technique nobody ever tried before so we didn't know exactly how well it would work. I did some more image compression work with DCT (using some of the same techniques later used in JPEG) and DPCM. My next task was rewriting and tuning some programs written by a mathematician so they would run faster; her programs worked but ran so slowly that they were impractical because she didn't really understand how to write an efficient program. Through this job I got a job working for a consulting company that did work for the Navy in data compression, pattern recognition, and digital signal and image processing.
There may be some interesting things going on in your own department. Usually this type of thing is reserved for grad students but if you can win over a Professor or two you should be able to get into it. While I was still an undergraduate I presented a conference paper and helped write research proposals.
Take off the blinders of coursework and start doing real science. That's when the fun starts.
Excuse me if a million other people have said this already but I couldn't read all the comments to this post before the post leaves the site ;-)
I'd say join an open source project. You'd be amazed at how fulfilling it can be to write good software that people learn to love and use. In addition to the validation, it is a great way to learn the basics of software development from analysis and design through the actual implementation nuts and bolts. If you can learn to develop good software in the hodge-poge that is the net with other developers from around the world it makes development of in-house stuff (say, for a company) a walk in the park.
The projects I work on and continue to contribute to have come to a point where I can now develop them as part of my 9-5 which is exciting.
Also, beware of the "grass-is-greener" scenario. One thing that I've learned in my short 5yr career is that all jobs will eventually suck. That's the natural progression of the work place anymore. All that ends up happening is people get tired of the things that are a pain in their a$$ and eventually decide to trade in those pains for new ones. That isn't necessarily bad...sometime I'd rather deal with new problems than the nagging old ones.
---------------------- Women love me, fish fear me ----------------------
I'm suprised no one has mentioned co-op programs yet.
... a lot less likely that you'll become sick of it in the middle of a long school year.
I've been in co-op in two different engineering programs (yes, I made a switch too) and it's been a great way to learn how to apply some of the stuff you learn in school and get great work experience.
Also, it's sweet only having school for 4 months at a time
So consider CO-OP programs - you'll get a better idea of what the real world is like in your field.
----- rL
As the subject says, try working on hardware.. It's a much more rewarding field -- ASIC design companies have to come up with new top-of-the-line designs every 6-12 months. You spend a lot more time coming up with new and improved ways of doing things, you do more rigourous testing and verification to make sure the chip works (you can't send a patch later, after all!), and when you finally finish off a design, you can hold it in your hand and say -- "I made this".
I always thought I was going to be a programmer... One day I got sick of it, siwtched to ASIC design, and I'm loving it.
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a 747 filled with CD-ROMs.
You should know that most jobs that ask for a CS degree have little to do with computer science anyway. Just start browsing through your local IT job listings and start picking. A lot of the jobs are looking for photoshop and graphics arts capabilities for websites, or other business jobs rather than CS jobs.
Ah, the trick, actually (as with other bugs) is not to write them in the first place. That way you don't have to fix them later.
Telegraph poles. Given n poles are the n-1, n, or n+1 gaps between then? Does the nth gap precede or follow the nth pole?
Get that thinking totally automatic, subconciously so you don't even have to think about it, and you don't write off-by-one errors any more.
Once you've got that sorted you can start on some real CS. And eventually you can start learning some software engineering.
why don't you take a sememster off, and spend that time doing unpaid work experience in a few different companies, in a few different roles to see what you like. try out a few tech companies, but also try media companies with small IT departments, banks, educational organisations.
get a mentor to help you work on what you really enjoy.
if all else fails, consider a related field that can still use your computer experience. what about librarianship. don't laugh - a lot of people are finding that the kind of knowledge you require to be a librarian is closely related to computing.
there are lots of positions out there as systems librarians, implementing and developing computer systems that directly help people that you can see instead of working in a computer company where you may never see the people that your product is designed to help.
www.blisspix.net
...And start having fun!
Turn that free laptop with a broken LCD into a MP3 player for your car. Have the machine appear as "My Car" on your desktop's desktop when you pull the car into the garage and your 802.11 link handshakes with your wireless access point. Buy a couple of gigs of ram and try to simulate huge hordes of scary-looking insects through a pretty OpenGL interface. Then add hideous soundtracks and crunching sounds. Scare your friends. Then, try to write a beat-mixer for
In short: Stop doing what you're told to do and start doing do something FUN. AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, STOP WHINING!
Back when i first started college i was the exact same way. i knew the gaming industry was where i wanted to go...but at the time i was thinking that i wanted to be on the programming side. after about a year i lost a LOT of interest in programming and noticed myself paying a lot more attention to Photoshop rather than C/C++. it took another year for it to click, but that's when i changed my major to art to major in Computer Art. now i'm also a semester away from graduating (as long as i can get all this degree plan bs outta the way) and love my major. i love the thought of having so many options that i'd enjoy - 3d graphics, web page design, ad design, etc. i don't know what i'd be doing if i was still in cs because it began boring me really fast.
so if you're not happy doing programming, look at what else you're doing as far as hobbies go besides programming. maybe your answer's there. and believe me, if you wind up liking computer art like i did, strong technical knowledge comes in VERY handy. you'd be surprised how many computer illiterates are in computer art...at least where i'm at.
good luck!
My spoon is too big.
Seriously, the Marine Corps has not only the smallest budget, but also the smallest per capita budget. We pride ourselves on doing more with less. The Marine Corps has been rapidly advancing towards the bleeding edge with computers over the last five years. You have the skills to write a program for Linux, Solaris, or Windows that will help or save money for the Corps? They'll pay your ass a bonus of up to (I believe) $20,000. It's a good way to test your skills in a place where it will be appreciated.
Want to know the best part of all? It doesn't matter if you're a damn PFC who drives a tank or a Seargent working in the military police. If your stuff is good, people will listen. And you can pick whatever random job you want to do for four years and then head into civlian life with even more options and management experience that money can't buy. Look into it (and all inter-service joking aside, shop around), it may not be for you... but then again, it might be exactly what you need in your life.
one of the more annoying english cultural expressions. this only makes sense when talking about the world outside an RPG like Everquest. there's nothing less "real" about college. yeesh...i found hit after hit of this stupid expression.
Then come back. You'll see how good you have it in this country. You're the classic example when foreigners point out how Americans are whiners when they have everything. If school is such a bitch, QUIT!!!! Make room for someone else who wants to better themself.
I'm working on becoming a musician/producer in my own right. Gather the apps, gather the instruments/samples, and apply your knowledge of how things go together mathematically to the creation of music.
Just a thought...
Learn a server-side scripting language or three, and start writing web sites. Far less annoying bugfixing, still plenty of money in the field, and you end up with more of a visible, brag-aboutable end product.
Besides, you get to make purty pictures, too.
--Yostinso
--Yostinso--
Simple. Switch majors.
About 3 years into my computer science major at Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo, I realized I just wasn't having any fun any more. The coding was allright, but the ridiculous and unnecessary support courses like chemistry and advanced calculus were killing me. What's more, having spent several summers in IT work, I knew that the job awaiting my graduation wasn't likely to be much better.
So, I talked to some professors and my CSC advisor. They asked what else I enjoyed doing, and after a bit of thought, I related that I'd always really enjoyed reading. "Why not try for an English major?"
A short struggle with the administration later (side note: Cal Poly's policy of "you damn well better know what you want to do with the rest of your life WHEN YOU ARRIVE!" sucks major ass), I was an English major. I show up to my first class, and our first assignment is to read Beroul's version of the Tristan and Isolde legend.
I couldn't believe it. No advanced calculations, no hyper-complex snippets of useless code, no lengthy excersizes to learn environment-specific skills that I'd likely never use. Just curl up with a good book, and enjoy. I was in heaven; it took all of one week to figure if I'd made the wrong choice. Smooth sailing from there.
Now, I know this isn't the choice for everyone. But even those with computers on the brain headed for a career in Silicon Valley might consider my path. Having spoken with many people, both at the college and in the industry, an English major is actually a plus with technical jobs. Anyone with a reasonable level of intelligence can learn how to use a program or language on their own in a matter of weeks, really. But the ability to communicate intelligently on paper is a truly unique skill among engineers, and one that will make your application stand out.
Anyway, I'll stop this post here, as I'm about to sit back and relax with several choice selections from Chaucer's earlier works in Middle English. Good luck with your dilemna, and remember: your major doesn't always have to coincide directly with your career to be useful.
I figured... Hey I'm smart, but no one listens to me... I have a 70,000$ debt and I hate going to a school where there aren't any females, let alone attractive ones (CMU).
So I said fuck it all, I'm doing karate again. Anyone under 30 can get to the state Bruce Lee got to if you just put forth determination... But then again throwing out computers so early doesn't have determination... Or do you just see it as another way the corporations hold you down.
Well I'm no longer keeping CS as a hobby + school... In all of it, I didn't even need CMU to tell me how to work a computer, I knew most of what they taught me already. Almost could say its a waste of time and money topped off with suffering.
I think the way to do it is to say fuck keeping whatever you do in school as a hobby. Do school do what the lame professor wants you to, get good grades, and do what you want with your life outside of it.
Well anyway I'm getting into martial arts so people see my determination... Yeah I do computers because I want to cure diseases, but I'm not going to enhance my mind and let my body go to shit. I want my body to also be an icon to what I know. You can't let depression take you down, you can't let another person judge you. Well thats how I see it, I have so much debt that money is meaningless to me because I can't lead a normal life with it... So I am leading the best life I can under repressed times, and its actually suprising the cyclical effect that a healthy body has on your mind. Much better than a downward spiral.
The key is saying"Fuck the normal person for not understanding." Fuck them for getting set in their jobs with their understanding of money... They may judge your fanatical approach to self betterment as something out of the norm, but they with their weaker mind(sorry but white trash who can't grasp algebra generally don't have worlds in their mind. I don't normally trash others) Why let them judge you when they can't understand you.
Fuck em all, show the world your dedication, and your time will come.
God spoke to me
I didn't see anyone mention writing your own projects. The thing that always bored me with CS in school was that the projects sucked. I spent half the time working on my own thing and half the time studying. I walked with under a 3.0 but I learned a helluva lot more than most of the 4.0'ers. Rediscover the joy of coding by coding for yourself, not your prof.
It seems that way because you are correct, your CS education is really pointless.
The exercises you perform in CS classes have very little to do with real world programming projects. The emphasis in CS classes is on algorithms, when in fact algorithm development plays a very small role in most real projects.
Rather, the people who are successful programmers have mastered several programming tools and have learned, through experience working on sizable projects, how to combat complexity. They have learned effective design patterns, probably through experience reading and implementing real world code.
I remember one of my CS classes when I had to implement an X Windows application that simulated logic circuitry. It took me forever to get it right. But looking back I now realize that my biggest problem was not with algorithms or data structures, the supposed cornerstones of the class. My biggest problem was that I barely new the C programming language and I didn't know how to use Emacs effectively. So things that would have taken me 0 time with a little more knowledge were taking me forever.
Most programming just ain't that hard. But effective programming does require a massive amount of esoteric knowledge. If you are a reasonably clever person you can and will be an effective programmer if you learn practical skills and just keep soaking up little details. No single detail will be very difficult to learn or understand, but the more of them you know the better programmer you will be.
For example, do you know how to use tag files in emacs? Do you know about bounds checkers like electric fence? Do you know scripting languages like Perl or Python and when to use them? Do you use automatic documentation generation programs like doxygen? Have you bought and read every book written by Richard W. Stevens (if Richard W. Stevens had written about physics, then physics would be easy)? Do you know the importance of designing simple interfaces, or are you going to learn that several years down the road after noticing that all your large projects have gotten totally out of control? The list goes on and on, and as maybe you can see I am still learning, and that is really the point, programming is constant learning. Unfortunately your school probably taught you very little of what you need to know.
My main advice to you is to think of a simple computer program that you would like to implement and do it. Find the time. Finish it. Release it to your friends, see what they think. Was it fun? I though so.
Good luck.
- fearlessfreddy
It's just what you wanted.... pyramids etc.
Make even shorter URLs - 8LN.org
I'm also a semester away from graduating with a CS degree, so I feel your pain. But the way I look at it is that I will never use most of the stuff I learn in my CS classes anyway (not the boring stuff). Maybe I'm wrong, but I really don't think that I'll ever use the pumping lemma for context-free grammers ever again. And if an employer asks me to, I'd probably quit. Just figure out what it is you love about computers and get someone to pay you to do it!
happiness
maybe try wolfenstein 3d :P
CS Not fun anymore... what is your problem?
Anyway Computer Science not fun anymore is almost as bad a statement.
There seem to be an infinite number of things you can do in the field. Maybe just what you are doing now is no fun, maybe the Company you work for or classes you are attending are not fun.
Take a break, lay some bricks, work in fast food, or hang drywall.
Get a job with the Gov't then tell me if you have changed your mind.
If CS was ever fun to you, there's something. Why don't you find an open source project that interests you, and join in or at least become part of the community? Scheme and Smalltalk have revitalized my interest in computing; this is largely due to me downloading and playing with Guile and Squeak, respectively. And they weren't even covered in class yet.
If computing is something you really enjoy, you should start learning and discovering on your own. Then the boring classes won't be so bad (and might turn into easy A's).
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
I too had a similar experience. I've been into computers and programming since I was five. I was one of those geek kids :) I used to spend hours and hours everyday in front of the computer (good 'ole C64, then the Amiga, then the PCs). I used to plan games to make with friends in primary school (never got round to completing many of them, LOL). Programming was my hobby. It was the same through high school. However I developed other interests during that time as well (particularly in writing/playing music).
:) Firstly, the CS degree taught me how to _think_. I'm confident enough now that I can accept any challenge thrown at me and be able to get up to speed with it. Doing the extra honours year definitely taught me this, that anything is learnable. The degree dosen't teach you how to code a specific thing or do a specific job, it teaches you a basic understanding and a way of thinking that allows you to gain and apply knowledge in any area of computing.
I went to uni to study CS, for me it wasn't just about getting a job. I could never understand the people who chose to do CS at uni even though they had never touched a computer before (I'm really talking about the ones who did it because they thought it would get them a good job).
First year of uni was okay, but by the end of it, I began to question whether computers were for me. The work was okay at uni, but it was hard and often boring. I was around a group of people in my course who weren't really into it, which didn't help much.
By the second year of uni, I was talking about getting into another career. I didn't really want to drop out of uni, but I did want to finish my degree and leave straight away. I no longer felt that coding was a hobby of mine. My music really started to take over and I spent about a year and a half doing music instead of computers in my spare time. I was still interested in the tech scene as much as I had been before, I just wasn't as interested in programming my own stuff. I considered dropping out and taking up a music degree, but kept with the CS in the end.
Then in third year, things kinda picked up. I got an amazing end-of-year project that involved working with an outside company. Very soon, the old flame was back. I had some of the best times I remember at uni in that year. I ended up going on and doing an undergrad honours degree (which I never expected to do only a year before).
Anyway, now I'm working in defence and I'm quite content with where I am at the moment. I always wanted to be a games programmer and I'm working on getting my experience, maybe one day I'll get into it. The work isn't bleeding edge, but it pays the bills. I'm starting to feel the coding itch again, which is good. I haven't hobby coded in a long time (about two years), I'm looking forward to getting back into it.
Anyway, I'll cut my own rambling short by getting to the point
Secondly, from your post it seems that you have that love of computing. There was a reason you were once as ambitious as you were - don't forget it. The flame's still inside you, it just needs to be awoken again. Don't get discouraged, don't give up and don't be afraid to experiment. Finish your degree and see how things look after that.
I'm really happy with my degree and my life right now. But reading that sent me into a spiral of despair. It just goes to show that your staite of mind is easily fliped.
Its all too easy to moap about squalering in your own piss; just frikin' stop it, ok.
Is your CS degree bringing your happiness down, or is your lack of happiness bringing CS down? If its CS, it'll all be over soon and everything will be fine and rosey again. If not; you're totally screwed if you don't do something about the other problems in your life RIGHT NOW!
For Christ's sake, do something else. You're, what, 21? Do NOT become a corporate drone, or you'll never get out.
I hated CS during my last year of school, too. I kept a development job for seven months after graduation, then went to Africa where I spent the next three years.
After that, I went to grad school in International Studies, which was a blast. It didn't pay the bills, though, but a kind soul offered me a C++ job. By that time, I found software development an absolute blast, and it paid well.
So, go do something else for a few years. Then maybe there will be another tech boom, and you can get back into it if you need some money.
I couldn't do it. I earned a whole lot more respect for people in school after I made it about 90 hours towards a Comp Sci. degree at University of Missouri@St. Louis and started bombing. I went back a couple years later and got some A's and B's and then the next semester I bombed again and said screw it (plus I was broke!). I want to know how to learn to program better not how to do differential equations. (I started in MIS because I didn't want to do math, but I hated accounting/economics even more than the math!)
So just keep in mind that if nothing else, you have earned that dang degree and not everyone has the oppourtunity or willpower to make it through school.
Honestly though, think of computer science as your backup. Go find something that interests you and make a contribution to that area with your computer knowledge.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
i started on a cs degree but found it really dry. they wanted to talk about it wayyyyy more than actually DO it (err... program that is), and i had already been programming on my own for so long.
.02 in)
anywho, i switched to a school that had Multimedia and Web Design since i've always had a thing for creating and i haven't regretted it yet. i figure there's a ton of middle ground in the web-programmer area to keep me happy for a long time.
*chink* (throws
I'd have to say I can relate to your suffering. I too am doing a CS degree, and lately as my marks have been falling from 70/80% averages down to 60/70% averages, my interest in the subject dwindles with it.
The only thing that keeps me motivated is my job as an environmental consultant, building databases and designing systems for environmental data. It may not sound like a great job, but you do learn things which wouldn't be learnt in a purely computer-based environment, like how a mine site works, and also lots of mathematics (simple things, but still applicable), such as what is the best type of equation to calculate the mean across a series of water samples.
In the end, i may only have a degree that says I'm a qualified computer scientist, but I'll also have experience in a wider range of fields... having other things to do aside from IT also makes the job more interesting.
If all else fails, find something which employs your computer skills, but lets you learn about more interesting things in the process.
I swear, if I see another Slashdot comment with "It will be interesting to see"...
choose a religion
:)
how about scientology
You report, Slashdot decides
Prevueing you're poast ownly hellps iff ewe no how two spel inn teh furst plase
Quit your CS major (three years in) to become an Art major (specifically Industrial design or computer art).
Someone once told me that the only way to describe college was the "force-feeding of chocolate..." Darned if they weren't right...
CS is a waste of time as far as I'm concerned anymore - I used to love it until I hit college.
I think the majority of you have it wrong in switching to something else. Remember, you're only at work 8 hrs a day. If you can find something you can tolerate(and computers is good for that) then go with that. Get a decent paying job that's comfortable. You dont have to like it. Remember tho, that not liking it is not the same as being in pain. Im pretty blah about my job. Its extremely boring and unfilling, but guess what? Work isn't supposed to fufill me as a person. Its supposed to pay my bills and it does that well. Find stuff outside of work. Work finances you to do stuff that you enjoy. Its not their to be enjoyed of itself. If you do find something you really enjoy that pays you well, then congrats, you did something that very very few people do. The way I look at is this, I dont give a rats ass if Im remembered by some for designing a billing system, or as the guy who coded a project effieciently and on time. What I care about, what really matters is how my family feels about me. My relationships with my family are what defines me as a purpose, not some silly place that I do work at.
That's what I did. I now manage cerulean.
While I agree with you that the paper is worth it, and with only a semester to go it would seem a great waste to throw it in, it'd be completely hypocritical of me to say it is what you SHOULD do. Ultimately the decision is up to you, and long-term your piece of paper wont be what gets you a job, it will still be you.
As for anonymous brave guys friend, it's very unfortunate they didn't get an interview, but they mustn't have been willing to put themselves on the line enough. I was doing multimedia tech, but coming from a mainly CS background. CS was boring me and I wanted a bit more creativity... then multimedia was boring me. After been excused from most classes because the tutors and lecturers had deemed my attendance was "unneccessary" until exams so long as my scores remained as high on all tests and work requirements, I ended up dropping the course two weeks before my exams.
The parents weren't too happy about it, but it's what I wanted. And it became my biggest selling point. I wasn't just another prima donna who said he dropped out because he was bored and the course was unchallenging, I had the academic record to back it up and the balls to back it up with some action. Willing to take a challenge, ambitious, decisive, and able to take control were all benefits I made sure my employers saw in my situation. As I said, it's all about how you sell it, just make sure the employers see it the same way you want it to.
Employed here for 2 years now (was my first job interview, while I had 4 I played them off each other to get the best deal for myself), 3 pay reviews in that time, a promotion into a more managerial position, and a 20th birthday today... things are great and not chance I'd go back to doing my course. I may however go back to uni in 5+ years or so to do something completely unrelated to my job, just because I want to.
Glenn
The Smrt way to trade CFDs on the ASX
I'm technically in the second semester of Computer Systems Technology and despising it. Though the course is designed to actually keep with with the constant restructuring of the tech industry it makes the program more unstable than anything. After a tragedy in my family that caused me to stay home for a year I returned to the program to progress. They changed the damn thing on me and now I'm at where I was two years ago. In second semester.
I could complain for hours about the course but seeing as how I just got back from one of my heavier days (and still have to study extra VB and SQL script because I'm not in one of the linked classes!) I'm far too tired to do so. So I will try to make my situation and opinion brief.
I'm visually handicapped with about 5% or so vision, colourblindness, and photophobia (I see light far more intensely than anyone else). Getting a job let alone a job that isn't a pity job is ridiculously hard where I live. This is a situation where you'll only get hired if you've got a good degree and even then, anyone will turn you up for someone who doesn't have to wear creepy black glasses all the time. So I chose CS to get a certificate then maybe a degree in. After all I work fairly well with computers and can change resoloutions to allow me to see properly. Plus I heard it pays great once you get into the industry. And pay is always a good thing.
Boy what a mistake. I don't think I'm cut out for the stress of the program when it gets into full swing. And even though I'm pretty good at C++ and things like ERD's or logical flowcharting I don't enjoy doing it. But it's too late now really. I've sunk too much money into this program to give up now. I can only hope that one day I will be able to wave my certificate under someone's nose and end up doing what I actually want to do. Be a sketch and illustrations artist (though it's hard to get anyone to believe I'm good at drawing with my disability!).
In simplest words, the IT industry is a cruel cruel mistress. I want a divorce!
Starkle, starkle, little twink.
No you shouldn't have any choice, because guys don't have any choice either.
Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
-Don
Take a look and feel free: http://www.PieMenu.com
Carnegie Mellon, and it was never fun...
When you do, you'll see how much fun it can really be. You get an opportunity to strut your stuff in a social setting. For sure, the social aspect is the fun part, it drives you on to bigger and better things. It's a virtuous circle, because as your skills improve because of the social support, your positive social feedback increases and you try that much harder at the hacking.
Not to mention the satisfaction of building something that will last, and being part of something that matters.
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
What Do You Do When CS Isn't Fun Any More?
CS stopped being fun when all those bunny hopping AWP whores started playing!
</sarcasm>
Seriously, though, I too am in this situation. I will be graduating in May, and I find myself just wanting to be a writer. I hope things do get better.
Throw your mama off the train.
You clearly have to get away from it all for a while.
When I felt the same (I was working though) I went travelling South-east Asia for a few months (which is not expensive at all), and then I decided to go to Australia and study (I'm from Sweden). I'm now in California finishing off my degree, and I can't wait to get back home and start working again. And if I end up disliking it again, I'll just go to Spain and learn another language. Or maybe I'll enrol in some arts college in Stockholm. Or maybe I'll go backpacking in Asia again. Or South America maybe. Or maybe I'll learn to fly and become a pilot.
Don't be so narrow-minded.
I started my degree in '95 when I hoped to be making maybe $20,000 when I graduated. Part way through the course people discovered Y2K and within a year of graduating I was up over $50K and starting to look at $100K positions. While I chose CS because I loved it, it got to the point where it felt like we were owed the $100K paychecks and to take anything less was an insult to our skills.
A transcontinental move later and I moved right in to the Californian IT recession. At first I wasn't prepared to lower my sights because... well, how was I ever going to make it back. Quite a few months of unemployment later, I'd got over myself. I'd forgotten about the ridiculous money (after all, they pay us for doing our hobby) and simply wanted a chance to do what I loved again. Once that started coming across in interviews I landed literally my dream job (and for pretty much the salary I wanted in the first place).
The moral of the story is that CS is a geek hobby that got too much money thrown at it. A million idiots who should never have been involved gold-rushed in and those of us who were geeks chased the money not the love of it. Spend some time being unemployed and the money stops being the issue anymore - and the love of CS for the sake of CS comes back.
Not the most fun sounding option in the world but, honestly, I've never been happier.
If you start a family, you might as well give up on having anything more than a mundane boring unimportant career. If you want to make a positive contribution to humanity and change the world in a meaningful way, having a baby is the absolutely worst thing you can do.
If you don't like what you are doing in college, it won't get much better when you get out. Working as a programmer can be a grind and I have yet to find a job that I actually enjoyed (one dot-com was cool, but we all know how that turned out).
Programming can be a blast if you get something interesting to work on. The problem is that there is very little out there that is actually interesting. You either spend your time maintaining someone else's garbage code or you work on project after project that are not only boring but probably will never get off the ground. Now granted, I seem to always pick the loser companies (I picked the last one because of the commute, boy was that a mistake).
I didn't get a CS degree I have worked my way into the field and can tell you this, it sucks. I have been doing this shit for going 6 years now and just can't find a job that doesn't drive me crazy (that could be my own fault).
I suggest staying in school for as long as you can. Get a Masters or a phd. The one thing I will always regret is not staying in school as long as I could. College may seem lame after 4 or 5 years, but working will suck for the rest of your life. Man I wish I could turn back the clock.
I envy you. Just don't jump too fast and think about how long you are going to be working for (50 years?).
LoRider
Pharmacy, you will see exactly how pathetic it can get.
I too am slated to get my degree in May. The comp sci curriculum in school is ok and all, but just too damn boring really. The real world isn't like that. I had a job when things went down, and I've found two other places to work since then, and in the one that shutdown, and the one now (but not the crap in between) there is a lot of 'real' computer work to do. School is, for the most part, rehashing problems and techniques solved long ago with tons of documented, step-by-step solutions, which just take the time of following through those instructions, but very little in the way of actual original thought. At work, it is a matter of, we are at point A, we need to be at point B, we have no idea how to get there, and no one else knows, else we woudln't be bothering. You actually get to apply your skills rather than simply prove you can follow instructions. School doesn't present problems without a known solution, because that would be unfair, especially if it is not possible. Companies, on the other hand, are all about the unknown and potentially unfeasible problems. Much more rewarding than schoolwork.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
I enjoy it, but my true satisfaction with the art of programming comes from design (architecting would be the buzzword, I suppose), not implementation. Or rather, implementing my designs instead of implementing someone else's.
Since you're almost done with your degree, I'd suggest you go ahead and get it. I dropped out midway through my sophomore year but fortunately haven't suffered from my missing papers. If you do drop out, expect to get some very low paying jobs at first. If you're talented, though, I believe you'll rise to the top. If you're not...well, then you better get that degree.
I remember when Al Gore expressed sorrow that Bill Gates dropped out of college because if he hadn't, he would be twice as wealthy.
-acidboy
What do you do when it isn't fun any more, but you'd like it to be?
I usually find someone new. After a while she becomes old and boring as well though, and I try to go back to my wife, but she's pissed off about the cheating and has filed for divorce by then. Fortunately careers don't take things personally. You can fool around on them and they let you come back every time.
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
Try taking up a real-world engineering major, like chemical engineering. Find out how to produce the world's next wonder-drug. Or Mechanical engineering. There you can actually design equipment that produces goods, not services. Try Civil, and build bridges. Or even Electrical engineering--where you can get involved in *making* the computers that others program. Many may laugh at the "old economy" engineers and their products, but no one can reject the fact that there's something satisfying in designing *real* products that do *real* things. Leave computer science to the gamers and join in the wonderful world of the real.
(I feel the heat of the flames already, but I know how to build an air conditioner powered by the fire--can you?)
The world won't beat a path to your door. They will make fun of you and put you down, because they are oxen, and they hate lions. But you will keep creating that wonderful new thing FOR THE SHEER JOY OF IT.
The bubble you have just burst is not the true bubble.
"You must try to forget all you have learned. You must begin to dream." -- Sherwood Anderson
Pick something you truly enjoy, rather than something you hate that pays well. I chose masturbation.
For every story like the above one, there's at least 10 more that tell a miserable tale of being fucked with constantly, being close to death, being bored out of your fricking mind, and constantly being in attendance to shit no one cares about.
"Sarge, why am I doing this?"
"Because you were ordered to. Now shut the fuck up."
It's about that glamorous most of the time.
And yes, it makes one appreciate civilian life and IT jobs in particular.
Quitchyerbitchin.
Or don't. But at least do the rest of us the service of being miserable in the military for a while. *Then* you'll quit bitching.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
I remember a while back there was an article about wheter computer programming was an art-form or science. The end product is an art form most times but the actual labor behind it is menial crap. Computer people are like sewers and there will soon be so many that sewers will be paid even more than them. If you don't like it, don't force yourself to magically try and like computers again, it won't end up making your happy. Since you found out so late that you don't enjoy it, you are kind of screwed. What about your minor? You could always just get the degree in something that you hate and try to find a job in another field. A degree in anything makes your more hireable.
Actually, it is all the same. You can learn a new technique here and there, but the basic skills and activities one engages in to write video games are the same ones used to write PDA software or wireless network drivers. It's all long hours sitting bleary-eyed in front of a monitor, wondering why some damn thing doesn't work.
If you like playing with lots of neat toys, breaking them, and then fixing them, then this is a good thing. Don't let the undergrad education get you down--the real world has more stuff to play with than college does.
But if you are expecting a long career filled with new ideas and new challenges, I'd say stay away from computers. You'll learn a lot your first three or four years in the field, but after that, it's all just permutations of stuff you already know.
And then they'll make you a manager.
I agree with the person who said to finish your degree. I found myself in a similar situation. By the end of my junio year I was just burned up and dragging myself through because it wasn't fun any more. The work wasn't woth it. I was lucky. I was able to switch my Major to history, which I had enough courses under the belt to finish in my senior year (with a Classics Minor). And being in your senior year, last semester, you've probably got your requirements out of the way. Take a look at all the other classes available to you! You may not have the chance to experience them again. College is supposed to be fun, so don't let the ennui get you down.
"Is this not a rare fellow, my lord? He's as good at any thing, and yet a fool." -from "As You Like It", Act 5,
but are you telling me that you are nearly finished with your degree and all you do is fix programs in your classes?
That is what I did last year, and I am in my third year now.
I understand that a lot of my learning should be through experience,but if that is what I have to look forward to, I fear I won't learn very much more.
Once you learn how to program in general, all you need to program in a specific language is the syntax.
No wonder you are bored with CS. You're classes aren't challenging you.
Try to come up with a small project and implementing it yourself. Someone already mentioned games, but anything that involves you figuring out how to implement it and tweak it so it works better would do.
The joy of programming is in making the computer do what you tell it to do. And once you get that part right, it is even more fun to tweak and optimize.
If what you describe is typical of a college education, I better take advantage of this break to learn OpenGL and Intel Assembly and Windows API and GNU/Linux and etc...
I have 3656.9 Bogomips. How many Bogomips do you have?
1. My school experience has been a rich one. I did 1-1/2 years in California, decided I didn't like the culture there, and returned to the Northwest where I've been completing my studies. I've met a lot of different sorts of people over the last 4 years. Interacting with them and learning from them has been one of the more valuable facets of my education.
2. Everyone wants to do the Big Thing. Sometimes when people fail, they become depressed as they realize that they aren't "as smart as I thought I was." This is entirely self defeating and needless. I used to get depressed when I heard about 16 year old kids porting XFree86 to Macintosh. Or think of the girl in elementary school who knew multivariate calculus and couldn't stop asking questions to which the teacher always replied, "I just don't know." Now, I realize that these people, no matter how intelligent, are completely lacking in social skills and are, generally, quite maladapted to reality. That isn't the sort of thing I'm aiming for. I want my life to be balanced and comfortable, and I'll do what's necessary to make it that way, whether that involves CS or not.
3. I found that pursuing an alternate field of study is helpful. I decided last year to minor in physics, and since I only have three terms left, I am really cramming it in. I feel more like a physics major than a CS major! It's really fantastically distracting, and it seems to help my performance in the one CS course I'm now taking (AI/Combinatorics). Now, I'm excited about combining AI, CS, and physics, and doing my own research in directions people haven't explored before. It's fantastic.
If all else fails, turn to spirituality. No, I don't mean organized religion; I mean sitting down on a log in the middle of nowhere and listening to the Earth. Don't ponder. Don't meditate. Don't strain. Just listen. Relax and let life flow through you, and see where you go. You're on an incredible tour of Planet Earth and you shouldn't miss out just because of some pesky computers.
if this is your first year, switch to an engineering degree. if you want something related, go for a computer engineering program. you get better or even more jobs that that CS degree - even with the poor job situation right now. or you can even go for the useless commerce degree and specialize in MIS... something the management people get just for doing something anyone can do. or if you want to this degree as something concrete, get an arts minor or something.
my blog
In high school, I used to compete in math (I was taking Calc 2 and DifEq in my senior year (hs)) and I had also done a bunch of programming on the side.
;) )
First year of college I was so sick of math, I decided to not take any math courses, and didn't really feel like taking humanities, so I just took a bunch of programming courses for the hell of it.
Second year of college, I was refreshed and got into the groove again, and I took a completely full load of math, science, humanites, english (etc, all the required) courses. This is my third year, and now I'm dualling in both Math and CS, and each semester I'm switching the load (ie: this semester i took mostly CS courses, next semester I'm taking mostly math courses; with something like Psychology added for flavor
Anyways, this way I don't get bored with one thing too much, and when I'm away from it for a few months, I begin to want to go back to it; because of my hiatus from programming all last year, this year I've started again with a completely renewed enthusiasm....
You just need to add variety to stay interested...
but anyways, i think that's enough for now
Ah yes, girls. Those mysterious creatures who hold the other half of human existance. While you're on your reverie about how beautiful love is, you failed to mention the dispair of rejection. It is impossible for a girl, who keeps her body in shape, to experience the type of rejection that all male geeks know and have come to accept as a way of life .
you think girls don't get rejected? everyone gets rejected at some point in their life. it's just that most people don't wallow in self pity when it happens. they pick themselves up, dust themselves off and explore other avenues. you can't force someone to find you attractive, or to like you. if you feel there's something about yourself that repels others (or yourself), do something about it, don't just sit there and feel sorry for yourself. guaranteed, self pity isn't sexy.
All that a female has to do to get some is look pretty and let the highest bidder into her pants. What of the lower bidders? What about the geeks who can only bring kindness and attentiveness to the table, chips whose value pales in comparison with what the jocks have: violence. Therefore, a male geek is always destined to look longingly at the jocks who have such incredible sexual value that they can often sleep with a different girl who is more beautiful and sensual than the last every week.
Maybe those jocks don't only value them for their looks. Not once in this post did you mention anything other than the superficial qualities of women. the closest you got was "more beautiful and sensual than the last", but even then it was attached to beautiful. if your kindness and attentiveness is only something you do to get "into her pants", and only if she's beautiful, it's not going to get you very far.
To the young ladies of college, I say fuck you. Fuck you feminists who blame the actions of your abusive boyfriends on the kind geeks. Fuck you optimists who have never had to hit on a person in your life. Fuck all of you. All we want is the joy and happiness of a relationship that can instantly render meaningless the cobwebs of antisocial lonliness.
Okay, the logic part of my brain is in pain here... you want the joy and happiness of a relationship that can instantly render meaningless the cobwebs of antisocial lonliness?
you can't render your past meaningless. you need to accept it and move on. your past doesn't equal your future, but if you deny your past, you won't get to the future because you won't learn from your past.
saying "fuck you" isn't a solution to antisocial behaviour or loneliness. antisocial behaviour from yourself will make you lonely, as you're isolating yourself from society... good ways to do this are to be a) defensive, b) blaming, c) bitter, d) abrasive (just for clarification, I would class "fuck you" as abrasive). if you want to be a part of society, you may want to avoid being the above.
you can't rely on someone else to clean your life up for you, it's your life, look after it yourself. take responsibility for your actions and if you want something changed, change it!
and a relationship? up until this point I thought you were looking to get laid... are you sure you're looking for a relationship? because that's not the signal you're giving off.
We will never get it, because it is up to the girl to choose who she lets into her pants,
of course it's up to the girl who she lets in her pants. otherwise, it would be rape.
and she will never choose a geek.
many girls have geek as their preferred flavour of male, for many more girls it's an undiscovered but intriguing flavour. don't associate being alone with your geekiness, it's far more likely to be something else.
Now I could post this Anonymously and avoid lonely geeks modding me to hell, but frankly, this is more important than slashdot karma. this is not meant as a personal attack, or an impersonal one for that matter, it's an opinion, to be read and considered. what you do after that is up to you.
don't waste your life feeling sorry for yourself, one day you'll stop, and wonder where the years went.
everyone has something that somebody else is envious of, everyone has something special about them and no one appreciates what they have the way they should.
I have seen far too many lovely geeks waste themselves in self pity and loneliness to not say something in response, and put my name to it.
except i had only done 2 years of generals. instead of going to school for cs, i decided ot get a job in the real word and see if i liked it. i loved my job, but decided i wouldn't want to do it for a career, or long enough to justify going to school for it for 3 more years or whatever. and now i'm working on my masters in acupuncture, which i love. i'm still a computer geek, and it's more fun now that it's my hobby, not my career. i still do consulting part time, and my computer skills come in handy all the time, as i'm sure they will in my practice.
but whatever you decide, definately finish your cs degree first.
It has been easy and fun to build. NOTE: my only exp. was a JR. High shop class and one shelf that looks like something out of a dream. The plans are well writen and easy to follow. e-mail me and ill be more than happy to take to you about it. root@xganon.com
As soon as you get out of school where projects are determined by a prof, and gen out into the world where you have more of a say in what you do, youll come to find that you love it again. besides, most college grads I know aren't in their area of study anyway (I am a software developer, I have a degree in Accounting, but CS wasn't offered at the time i graduated) Good luck
given some of the responses to this post, there just aren't enough mad passionate affairs in some slashdot lives.
it's just an affair fellas, it doesn't have to be the end of the world, the end of your life or even your whole life
but given that sex is a natural stress reliever, you may find yourself more stressed without it.
if this affair stuff all sounds too hard, get a pet... a dog or a cat or a fish or something... and fall in love with that instead.
if you think this affair stuff sounds really fun, play it safe if you don't want your sex life ruined by disease, and take precautions if you don't want to start a family
Stick your head outside the computer lab. English lit. and anthropology majors are a good bet.
take this woman's advice!
Amen to that brother.
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Seriously,
IANAP But, you sound like you are suffering from depression. You MUST talk to someone about that. You also have to ask your self WHY you
rate yourself so much on grades? A 3.0 (out of 4.0) undergraduate GPA in CS is pretty damn good. Also, grades in CS don't have anything to do with how good a developer you can be. (Oh, yeah, all those off by one errors? You have those because as a senior in CS you are a stone cold newby at programming. You'll get past those pretty soon.)
On the other hand, I understand what you are saying. I started college as a history major (planning to be a Lawyer) that got boring, so I changed to English (creative writing), and then to CS.... Well written code is a lot like well written poetry. Doing what you like is the most important thing.
On the third hand, you might just not be cut out
for a life as a developer. A LOT of talented people went into CS in the late '60s, the early '80s, and the late '90s because that was where
they could make the most money. Then they found
out that developing code was like doing home work
all day long and they hated it. Most of those people stay in the field for less than 5 years
and nobody misses them. And, they are a lot happier doing whatever it is they wind up doing.
So, First, talk to a shrink. Get some perspective.
Then think about where you are headed.
Stonewolf
P.S.
My salary history looks like a saw tooth wave. It goes up for about 10 years, then goes backwards in a short sharp hop, and repeat. Right now my income has dropped to zero. Looks like I have a good chance of geting up to 50% of what I was making last month.
A few years ago I was going though the process of leaving the USAF.
Reminds me of my Dad. Left the USAF as a Colonel and spent the next twenty years as a truck driver. The theory is that it is all about big noisy machines for him.
My advice is that you should also try the computer grind for a few years. I've been at it 20 years and it hasn't killed me yet.
I started out in College as a CS Education Major (CS Teacher)... then changed to Comp. Info Sys (Business major)... but I realized i liked the physical technology so much more than the coding. Then, I found out that CS is nothing more than the first four years of the rest of your life... instead of starting out getting paid for crappy work, you can pay a school to learn how to do the crappy work. Its just not worth it, I changed over to Politcal Science... I will become a lawyer and represent the software companies... I think its the best way to make money in teh high tech field these days.
I'm majoring in CS at Georgia Tech, and believe me, the tedium has driven me to the edge. Came a point where I avoided all coding jobs in favor of design work.
Then I picked up 3D Studio's MAXScript, and overnight I got back in the habit; I got really carried away with small scripts that turned into major plugins.
Then my interest in video games started bleeding over to the coding arena. Wasn't long before I had the urge to write all kinds of video game code.
So it happens to the best of us. I suppose my advice would be: step back from your college classwork, and try to identify something you really enjoy that's codeable, be it short graphic demos, OS utilities, whatever floats your boat. The problem I had with classwork, which I imagine you're having too, is that it's just -boring-, and not very gratifying at all. Find some kind of code that you find gratifying and your spark might be rekindled.
Also, do consider your being depressed, and take it seriously. I made myself go see a counselor here at Tech, and it's the best decision I ever made. Made me feel better about where I'd been and where I was going; I'd recommend it to anyone, depressed or not! If nothing else, it gives you someone to talk to when friends are in short supply, due to time shortages or what have you.
Try to identify why you wanted to become a coder in the first place and go back to it. Rekindle a hobby-level interest in it again, refresh your memory, and work your way up.
This is a straightforward, logical solution to all your relationship problems.
Step 1 is called Image. This is the hardest part. You need to find an image of someone that your entire being cries out for. You really need to agree with yourself on this, I can't emphasize that enough. Practically, this image can be of any sort including fictional, as long as it is complete and strong to you. I prefer fictional (it's what worked for me) because that way you don't have to worry about access to the source of the image. You're not going to try to have sex with this image, so it can be just about anything (a sister, for example, could be acceptable). You want to make yourself very familiar with this image. Wallow in it. Hang it on your wall.
The second step is to deconstruct the image. This is where self-honesty kicks in. You have to look at your image and ask seriously, "Would I still be attracted to this if X aspect were removed or changed?" Start small! "Would I love her if her hair were dark black instead of light blue?" is the sort of thing you start with. Only later should you move on to "ugly" or even "stupid" (which you may never reach, depending on what you really care about). Go as far as you can while maintaining an image that still satisfies step 1. This is the "Self" stage. At the end of the Self stage you have a very loose set of concepts. You won't be able to point out or describe your image like you could at the end of step 1, but you'll still be able to identify a match. That's all you'll retain, really, the ability to match to an image you don't fully understand anymore.
In step 3 all you do is commit yourself to the new image. You make a promise to everything the image is that you are hers and hers alone (that's right, in absence of a real person). This should actually come fairly naturally; if not return to step 1. After this stage there's a good chance you've excluded most of the hot college girls from your consideration. (That's part of the trick here: YOU exclude THEM.) And hopefully you've opened up to a whole range of wonderful girls who have the same problems that you do. (In case you were wondering, this step is called "Love".)
Now you are a different person, and what's going to happen to you is that this stunningly attractive person is going to just waltz into your life and start talking to you. Really, I'm not kidding at all. It may take a few years, but you'll wait, remember? And once you find her you'll make all the right decisions, because she's everything you want and you're not going to dump her for something else that you think you want. Go for her! When she starts explaining why she's not really close with her boyfriend, that's what's called a "Sign from God". And by now her pants are probably the last thing on your mind. Sweet dreams!
i'm graduating in May, too, with my EET degree. also not real happy with school anymore and really scared of the future. wanna start our own company? :)
spacefem.com
No, being an EE is not all about being so busy and stressed out. Not all EE's are cubicle slaves, many work out in the field, where there's no room for stress, particularly hard core EE jobs where it is all in a day's work to deal with 200,000 volt power distribution systems.
Another job I've worked at where stress is very low almost by requirement is a nuclear power station. When I first started, I was amazed at how laid back everybody was, how even the boss man would hang out in the break area and bullshit with everybody else, but I came to understand his "open door policy" very well when given the sheer scope of things: Releasing the energy in 1,000 tons (we're talking physical mass here, not equivalent yield in TNT) of enriched uranium veeeeery slowly to keep a 100 ton turbine spinning at precisely 3,600 RPMs to deliver approximately 1.35 million horsepower to a generator that puts out a gigawatt of power. Making a small mistake here because you're under pressure, or even being mad at your wife for something trivial, can cause a disaster and jeopardize an entire industry. Everyone is encouraged to get a good night's sleep and take vacations regularly, and there is even a team of counselors and psychiatrists on the staff full time to deal with people who feel they may be under stress.
And, of course, there's any job that requires a security clearance, e.g. working at the Pentagon, the Lockheed Skunk Works, etc. There you are absolutely prohibited from "taking your work home with you".
Our attitudes towards things can be affected by changes in brain chemistry. This can occur from over-stressing the brain on particular problem types. Symptoms can be: change of attitude (rather, brain laziness), and polarizing (highs and lows over short intervals)
Try a nuerotransmitter supplement called PhosphatidylSerine (a well-known smart drug), other supplements that affect brain functionality might help: good quality B-complex and E.
Also: exercise, and fix your diet if not fixed:
Once you've done the above, you'll notice that your attitude towards many things or even life as a whole is completely changed. Do it sooner than later.
It's just burnout. At the risk of giving advice (which I hate to give or recieve), keep going until you have finished your degree.
Then you will get a job that pays money. Then you can get a car and other *stuff*. This will help you feel really good.
You're actually Studying CS?
Well if you don't like it, maybe try Q3 instead.
:D
--
. take off every
If you were evre realy excited about CCS, the excitement will come back. Your just burned out on school. Get the heck out and find an inetresting project to join.
Thats is, unless your whole motivation really was "at least it pays well"{ in which cvase your finding out to olate that you went into the wrong field. Don't do things 'for the monmey', you will be bad at them. Do them for love and money will find you because you will be great at them.
If THIS is the case, I'd suggest you fiure out what you REALLY like to do and get a masters that wil let you do that for a living.
As last suggestion, you will hit the doldrums at variosu times in your career for various rasons. Whats always pulled me through are side projects of my own that keep my excited and learnign new things.
Take a cue from Feynman...remember to play around with things. You got into CS in the first place because you like something about it. Maybe the problem-solving, maybe logic, whatever. Create fun projects for yourself doing whatever you like, even if it's pointless, even if it's been done before. In Feynman's case it led to some great research.
That said, I'll echo some of the other posts in suggesting you explore some other areas. I had a similar crisis my senior year and took Intellectual History, Abnormal Psych, design, and some other stuff. I ended up back on the same path, but with a far better idea of why I was there and where I wanted to go with it.
I'm doing SA, so not much coding works. Thank God you brought this up since I have lead programmers and sometimes I wish to be like them. Looks cool and smart, you know!
:)
I think for now I stay with my current job and continue to travel round the globe
btw, you need to make it through your study.. at least to prove that you can close a task and not run away from it.
CS is an enabler for most of us not an end.
You do not even really need to go back to school for this.
very true. you should realise that whatever it is you obtain a degree in does not limit you to just that field. sure, it may be a bit harder on your own once you get out of school, but i learned more in the 2 years after i graduated than probably the 4 i spent in school. on my own. because i liked what i was learning.
i graduated with a studio art major and a history minor, and now i'm doing unix admin work. if you have a brain, you can literally do anything you put your mind to. the one thing you'll (hopefully) learn in college is not your major's subject matter, but how to learn. once you have that, it's almost trivial (and quite fun) to apply to anything else you may be interested in.
if you're not sure what it means to go to a job every day that you truly enjoy, try working a shit desk job for a while pushing paper and wasting your mind. you'll learn what it means rather quickly.
http://discworld.imaginary.com/DiscworldSociety/kf l.html
There is no "happiness", it's a concept like "god" - invented by people who need to believe that there is some point in life. What I think is that nobody is ever truly happy. Everyone is all the time searching for something to make their life better. Of course they are! If you were completely satisfied it would do no good to your survival as a human. People are always looking for improving their living conditions.
I'm not saying that you should be depressed and unhappy - on the contrary. I'm saying you SHOULD NOT be depressed just because you're not totally satisfied with everything, I don't think anyone is!
I almost burned out myself at IT business, and I already said to everyone close "I'LL QUIT! I WON'T WORK WITH COMPUTERS!" but I'm still at IT business. To get new fire I were almost 2 years off from IT sector, worked at shelter, saw totally different kind of world.
It was quite cool. After that break I came back to IT business. More experienced, with totally new aspect to life. Now after the economy has cooled down a bit I've also started to do some non-CS studies, philosophy, languages, history etc. Gives new thoughts.
After the break things really might start to look MUCH better. Nerd is always nerd
=)
I lost interest in CS a long time ago, but I continue to be in CS, because that's how I make most money. Right now I just like to be able to do a good job, and in fact, it has been scientifically proved, that being productive makes happy workers, not the other way around.
So when you graduate, and got yourself a job, you will eventually find joy again. Maybe not CS itself, but getting the job done, nice collegues etc. CS itself can be a smaller part of your life than you imagine, even though you continue in it.
Knowing how to think like a real computer
scientist will enable you to do lots of other
things well in life, many of which have nothing
to do with C.S.
It's a state of mind. You observe. You analyze.
You evaluate. You do some problem solving or
creative work. Then, if you have your act
together, you get paid for all of the above...
quite well!
Regards,
Oing!
This won't be any use for the poster, but might help someone
I became completely fed up with my CompSci degree in the 2nd year - ended up getting a very low 3rd, and a chat with the warden to see if I wanted to carry on at the university; As it happened I had a gap year coming up - and this really changed my perspective - I found that academia really was massively more interesting than being an analyst, and when I read the course books (which only a few months ago, I had been forced to read) for the sheer hell of it, it turned out that I still found them interesting.
After that it was really a case of properly focussing on why I wanted to do the degree in the first case - binning the courses I loathed but had been forcing myself to do (Yeuch) and really spending some quality time with the things I would have done even had I not gone to uni.
So, anyway - focus on the things you enjoy about the course, ditch the courses which you feel obliged to do, but you really hate. Bit trite, but it worked great for me.
Wow, so many great thought and suggestions from others. I will try to add my two cents in here for what they are worth. I failed out of college after only one year, but three years later I am makeing 100k+ at two jobs that I love (contracting and Sun microsystems). The only change that I made was from sludging through a college major that I hated (CS) to a career that I love (SA/tech support). It's amazing just how different programing is from doing tech support/ SA work. If you don't like academia's version of computers but still have a true love for the IT field, take a look at becomeing an SA. The overwelming idea behind most of these posts seems to be "do what you love". I cannot aggree with this statement more. I just don't want to see people who are fed up with a college CS major give up on IT completely. Something about computers sucked you in initially, and that curiosity probably still is there. Just remeber that the IT field in the real world can be drastically different/better than it is in college.
Hey I'm with yah dude!!! I came back to school lured by the high salaries and the illusion that CS would teach me about computers. Instead of coding this semester I am wasting my time and on Human Sexuality of all things and Intro to Human Genetics, thanks to CSU's advanced GE requirements.
Instead of learning more jython, j2ee or even c# this semester, I have written essays on such deep topics as: What is a Man? What is a Woman? and What is a Father?. No Joke.
Also in sex class, I have participated in a group "project" in which we were required to do a "puppet show" with Barbie dolls in which Barbie gave Ken a blow job and caught Herpes! In front of 30 other students. I am not kidding!!!
Why don't we have schools that spend four years producing hard core, to the bone programmers!!!! Teach us about hardware, software, graphics, networking etc. I don't buy the well rounded argument either. I've done my last Porno Puppet Show!
The system does not work it chases the students interested in CS out, and leaves the "good students" in. I define "good students" as those who remeber the complete RFC-1213 MIB tree, but they can't tell the difference between a NIC, a switch, and a router!!!
I have accumulated a Solaris Admin Certificate, and am finishing up my last semester of Cisco Academy. I plan on taking the CCNA test in December. I will blow the dust off my BA in Bio. and get a job.
CS is not what I expected.
I've been in Spain for not so long ago. Nothing could be more different from the "American way". Those guys, at 10pm, start wondering where they are going out tonight. They go to work next morning and don't do anything all day, and in the night, party again. Socializing. Friends. Girls. Work is just a way of getting money to go out.
Of course things get done in the US. Of course it's much more efficient, with people really working. Of course you get more money. But on the other hand, those people really... well, what can I say.
I was wondering. What is Computer Science and Computer Engineering? I'm asking because I'm a senior in high school and I'm pretty sure of what I want to go into. I believe it's Computer Science is for programming and Computer Engineering is for hardware? If so, I want to go into Computer Science. I figured I'd ask just to be sure.
Glenn Murphy
Are you telling me that you don't see the connection between government and laughing at people? - Interviewer
I wasn't referring to a personal friend. The people in question were prospective employees -- students and recent grads/early finishers -- I had met while attending a recruitment event on behalf of my employer. One was so obviously talented that I personally recommended that he be interviewed, in spite of not finishing his course. He wasn't.
Management ruled him out immediately on the basis of the lack of degree. There were plenty of other candidates who had them, and they weren't about to stretch scarce interview resources to check out someone who didn't. There was no "not putting themselves on the line" about it; the lack of degree stopped them getting further in the recruitment process, end of story.
Some employers will see past the lack of paperwork, sure. You were lucky enough to find one. My original point was simply that for many employers, even otherwise good ones, you will be File 13'd before they even read the rest of your CV if you don't have a university degree.
In that light, it would be foolish for most people to give up a course partway through the final year. You'd have to really be suffering, and it sounds as though the original poster was just feeling a bit tired out, which happens to many good people as they go through uni studying the same subject for several years. But for many people, this feeling passes, often as soon as you've finished your course and the pressure lifts.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Look man, follow your heart. Life is too short not to be happy doing what you're doing. It's always ok to come back to something else later on. There's no rule that says your CS degree needs to come in consecutive semesters.
You seem to be under the impression that the field doesn't pay well anymore. It still does, you just have to EARN IT! Simply being able to touch type and spell Java doesn't entitle you to 150k/yr out of the gate. (If someone knows where it does, tell me where to send my Resume!)
You have the opportunity to do whatever you like right now.. take it. You might also want to give some consideration to dealing with your problem and how you feel right now. It's not so easy to just get up and walk away once you have a mortgage and little ones on the way.
Part of getting an academic degree is proving to potential employers that you can do the grunge work. You won't bail out if you have to do some stupid stuff along the way.
.... . Fill in something that is better at your old job. "closer to my home", "nice trees around the office building" anything. That indicates that you need a good compensation for them to "buy you out" of your old job.
So: Go ahead and graduate. Find yourself a job.
You might end up at someplace where you end up writing stupid HTML for the rest of your time there. That's fun for a while. Learn HTML & JavaScript, and look for a new job.
You might end up in a challenging job. Enjoy, make the most of it, stay put.
Actually, if you end up with a poor job first, that's GOOD for you: You always have a MUCH better chance of getting a good salary if you've been through the negotiations once before, and if you're applying while you already have another job.
You're eager to start to work for them, the job looks fine, but
Roger.
I think we can all agree that Office Space is the best movie of all time!
Have you ever asked yourself, Is It Normal?.
The PC support market is saturated by people who bought a crappy PC an loaded on a pirate copy of Office. [...] I'm seriously looking at museum studies of some sort.
Actually the computer museum market is saturated by people who bought a crappy PC and loaded on a pirate copy of Wordstar.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
After you become a professor you have to go on all kinds of adventures recovering lost artifacts from all the corners of the earth. Haven't you ever seen Indiana Jones or Relic Hunter?
Yes, bu in-between you have to go back to your University and teach students while you are eager to show Marcus that Cross of Coronado in your pocket. That's the boring part of the job.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
" Your answers show the presence of prominent depressive symptoms. It is advised to seek a psychiatric consultation,"
:(
You must find a goal to do something, and then do whatever necessary to achieve that goal.
In my case, I always wanted to become a pilot. But glasses and lack of money just didn't make that possible. So I wanted to become an engineer, to create technology. The engineering study wasn't a goal, it was a way to achieve the goal. Eventually (after my first Telecoms engineering degree), I came in contact with IT and programming. As a CS engineer, I now create new stuff every day. And love it a lot. So I achieved my goal of creating techy stuff. Does it all end here? No! I set myself a new goal: become a pilot - this time by my own means. In the meanwhile I have a license but want to go further in this...and the daily programming is double fun because as a side effect it generates the necessary funds to pay my flying fun.
Second point: many people here advise you to finish your year and get your degree. They are right! No employer is interested in what degree you have, but in you having a degree. After obtaining it you can do whatever you want...if you go for it.
Good luck!
Many advanced CS courses are trying to teach you a concept, and most profs give you leeway in how to implement that concept. Just because everybody else is writing the code in C does not mean you have to use C -- pick a different language, maybe one you've never used before. The assignment may be mind numbingly boring in a language that you already know, but it becomes an interesting challenge in a new language -- and you personally get something out of the class that nobody else did.
I used this approach and it definitely changed the way I felt about school.
If you can't make school fun, build something fun on your own.
- Is there something cool that you have heard about but never tried?
- Is there some library/function/module that you have used, that is just a "black box" (give it input, magic happens, and something different comes out) Have you ever wondered how the magic happens? Try implementing it yourself!
- Do you have your own website? If not, build one, if you dohave one, make it better! (it helps if you are passionate about whatever the subject is). HTML is boring -- Learn how to make things interactive with CGI or Flash
- Have you set up a Linux server or an Apache server or an Oracle server? Try it!
If you pick the topic, you are your own boss -- you can go as deeply into one topic as you want, or quickly move on to something else. This gives you a chance to try different things to help you narrow down your career choices. But try to pick topics that will help you in the "real world" -- You can spend days generating an alien landscape with a ray-tracing program, but will that help you get a job that you will like?(witty sig needed)
in assembler...holy s**t she blew me out of the water.
You married this woman, right?
Drink heavily. Often.
In many parts of the country (or at least here in Northern CA) there is a shortage of teachers, if you have a Bachelors degree you can substitute teach anywhere teaching almost anything. It seems like it would be a good way to clear your head and do something good at the same time.
if common sense was common, wouldn't everyone have it?
First, get the CS degree. You may end up doing completely unrelated work, but having a technical degree makes it a lot easier to get and keep a decent job, even if you never use any of the material you studied.
... find that the only good 'job' that wants that specific degree is grad school, and if they don't want to go to grad school they end up finding a job that is only slightly related to thier degree. You may have to search a lot harder to find a decent job like this, and it will probably pay less than a CS job, but it might get you into something you find interesting.
Second, treat your degree like a general degree in some random science. Most people who graduate with a BS in chemistry, biology, physics,
Another option to consider is grad school in a field that interests you. This is what I did. Some grad schools are open to people making a big switch in fields, while others are not, so you will have to look around a bit to find one. You will probably have to take a lot of undergrad classes in your new field. In my case I had to take all of the junior level and senior level courses in my first year in grad school, and I barely survived, but in the end it was worth it as it allowed me to get work that I enjoy.
Finally, it sounds like your still in your early 20's, so taking a few dead end paths won't effect you badly in the long run. Do what seems right, and if it turns out not to be right just start over.
Good Luck!!!
I had a somewhat similar experince as this guy. When my senior year came around in my Mirobiology undergrad program, I finially had the opportunity to do "real" experiments, instead of follow-the-book ones.
I hated it.
So I finished up the bio degree 'cause I was already so close and looked for other things to do. I ended up writing code.
But here's the cool part: It's not that I love debugging programs, or that I like hacking together some project for a clueless PHB. In fact there is nothing in CS itself that really gets me going. I like it, but I don't love it.
The trick is to find something that lets you take your wide variety of knowledge and do what you love.
So now I work in Bioinformatics, and I really like what I do. It has the parts of microbiology that interested me enough to get the degree, without the stuff I hated. And I enjoy writing the code because of the subject matter. I'd be bored out of my skull if I had to do the stupid programs the CS majors in school did, or something like an insurance program. But because I am interested in the problems I'm solving with my code I like doing it.
if you don't like it, go do something you _do_ like, you stupid wanker
What kind of work are you doing?
Just curious...
Weird... these are not the kinds of things
:) )
:)
I would recommend to someone who is tired with
the CS course. I mean, I did most of these
stuff *for my CS course*
- I implemented a raytracer for CG class
(I picked another project for Parallel programming, but a friend of mine took his
raytracer and parallelized it)
- I implemented a programming language
using lex/yacc (a dialect of Pascal, and
it produced Java bytecodes!)
- I teached my computer to play an extended
NxN version of tic-tac-toe in AI class
- I did my own 3D library with assembler-optimized matrix math (that counts
for the image filter library
So far I haven't written a screen saver, and
I skipped the neural nets class (it was optional
and I picked something else). I have another
year to go, lemme see if I can fit a screen
saver in
So if you have to do these things to get away
from your CS course, then sorry, your course
sucks...
-- Hisham,
studying at http://inf.unisinos.br
I think this is a crucial point: A degree in CS can lead to careers besides programming.
I was a disillusioned CS major, too--a good-but-not-great student at Berkeley. Like you, my GPA was higher outside the major than inside. I figured that my only career option was to become a mediocre programmer.
After graduation, I did work as a programmer for a few years, but I quickly found that there were other jobs I liked better. I eventually gravitated to networking, where I worked as a hostmaster (that guy who runs your company's name servers), then as a consultant and as an instructor. And I'm sure there are plenty of career options I didn't explore that would have been interesting, too.
So don't think of a CS degree as a one-way ticket to programming. Think of it as an analogue to a law degree. A remarkably small percentage of people with law degrees actually take the bar and practice law. Many of them end up in business, in politics, or in other careers that require critical, analytical thinking. Likewise, a CS degree can qualify you for lots of jobs that require logical thought and an understanding of technology.
What do you do when it stops PAYING?
I just got laid off last week, and there doesn't appear to be ANY job, much less a low-paying one out there at all...
It *is* all the same after a while. The kind of thinking behind "new tools, etc, blah, blah, ...changes almost daily, blah, blah" is exactly why there was a PERCEIVED shortage of developers back in the boom economy (before spring of 2000, basically, ie, most of the 90s). HR and other staff laid down such a narrow field of vision for what they wanted that they would rule someone out just because they didn't have X or Y skill but they had plenty of W or Z skill. That person or persons could have been more than capable at doing said job, but "oops, they don't have 10 years of Java! My, my! They could never adapt that C++ or Smalltalk or PowerBuilder they know to do Java!"
Of course, that might have been all part of the master H1-B plan...create a false sense of a shortage, then create a system rigged totally in the companys' favor, all under a pretense of free trade and free markets. Indentured servants play no part in a free market. Now that the economy is in the crapper, we still have H1-B's glutting the market. What's the deal? It was bad enough when my salary was driven way down artificially by the H1-B hacks (and I say "hacks" because I haven't seen one that has impressed me yet), it's quite another when I don't have a job because of them.
...this thread has the most comments I've ever seen apart from the WTC threads.It's obviously struck a chord...are we ALL so disaffected?
Remember these days in your waning time left at a university. They will probably be some of the best times in your life. I hate to give you the news, but a B.S.C.S doesn't qualify you to do squat. Not only will everything you think you know as valuable information be obsolete in 4 years, you will face an even more competitive GLOBAL market of millions of sellers of the same skills.
Within 5 years, all software engineers will be required to become a LOT better at their craft. You will not be able to get a hack job without IEEE software engineer certification
As large organizations invest 25% to 50% of gross revenue in very large IT integration projects, much of what passes as CS research is simply not going to get funded. The consolidation of IT vendors (Compaq-HP for example), will mean fewer opportunities and those that are available will require higher, and more specialized skills.
As that famous philospher, Axel Rose of Guns & Roses once said "Welcome to the Jungle".
Prepare to be re-educated by the "School of Hard Knocks".
start dropping acid. you'll see things a lot clearer.
I believe he is bored with Computer Science not Counter STrike.
Dude, to me it sounds like your getting burned out. The same thing happened to me. By the time I finished with tech school I just didnt have the umph to program anymore. :P So I gave up for awhile, went to a regular college and started taking regular classes. Now I miss it. :) I guess that means I got my umph back. :) hehe :) All you have to do is take a break from it, then eventually you will find a programming project that gives ya a woody and you'll be ok. :) Believe me, it's fun. Sitting there all day clattering away at the keyboard, codeing some realy elegant stuff. :) Damn. Now I'm popping wood :*) hehe :) L8 :)
Live to be happy!! OR ELSE!!
on what you do and where you want to go.
I never said a degree was needed to work.. only that it's often the beginning, not the end.
You are doing great. Fantastic. If you feel you can continue to do so for the rest of your life, and not having that degree won't hold you back, then there's not much reason to get it, is there.
Network management...
t o b e
Assignments for classes are almost always boring, to a certain extent. They can be interesting in that you are doing something that you've never done before, but you have very limited leeway for creativity in your programming in assignments. Also, you're pressed for time to get it done and working. My advice is to ignore those people who immediately tell you to get out of CS if you're bored. My advice to you is this: evaluate how often you program something for yourself. Have you ever written a program for yourself? When was the last time you had an idea for a program you wanted to write for yourself, or for others on your own time? Do you feel bored when you are able to program for yourself, unbounded by the constraints of time or requirements? If you enjoy programming for yourself, then I don't think you've lost any of your enthusiasm for CS, you're just burned out with schoolwork.
Luckily for me, I have an internship at a company where they let me be creative in my programming and where deadline pressures aren't too high and I don't have to deal with budget issues. When I have a project at work that I get interested in, I'd much rather be at work than in class.
People say they internally feel OOP is good, but they cannot articulate why. It is a zen thing with them.
I can't stand OOP, find it counterintuitive, and messy compared to procedural + relational programming.
A true genious would figure this out one way or another.
oop.ismad.com - by the best anti-OO troll on the 'net.
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Table-ized A.I.
I switch to TFC, or maybe even fire up the old Warcraft II.