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Senator Clinton Slams GTA
Joining the ranks of such luminaries as Jack Thompson and Governor Blagojevich, GamesIndustry.biz has the word that Senator Hillary Clinton has joined right wing advocates in decrying the gaming industry as a paragon of loose morals and corrupting influences. From the article: "Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them...This is a silent epidemic of media desensitisation that teaches kids it's OK to diss people because they are a woman, they're a different colour or they're from a different place." Commentary available at The Australian. Update: 03/30 02:22 GMT by T : Thanks to reader mantle_etching, here is a link to the entire speech as delivered, so you can judge its content for yourself.
You think killing prostitutes are bad? Wait until you see soldiers team-killing each other in CounterStrike.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
... but did you ever notice that not a single politician slams Thief?
Trolling is a art,
Or it's just an entertaining game.
You know where you are? You're in the $PATH, baby. You're gonna get executed!
It is wrong to murder prostitutes after you have sex with them.
Unless they charge more than $50, then its ok.
Imagine that... Senator Clinton, the woman who stood by her morally correct husband while at the top of the US government who supported his second in command's wife's desire to mark "inappropriate" music as such, supporting "proper" moral behavior for the inhabitants of this "free" country.
"Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them," she said in a statement on the issue. "This is a silent epidemic of media desensitisation that teaches kids it's OK to diss people because they are a woman, they're a different colour or they're from a different place."
Hmmm, what about the US Government desensitizing these same children using the same television by killing and torturing real people during wars in Afghanistan and Iraq or announcing that the head of the US Government was getting his cock sucked by a cigar smoking slut who was married to the same woman who is so against immoral behavior being shown to children?
The parents are letting their children play GTA and they are letting them watch the news. It's up to the parents of these children to give them direction in life not Senator Clinton or anyone else.
I'd like someone to sit down the youngsters in our country and try to explain to them how killing or torturing someone in a war that was permitted under false pretenses is morally acceptable but allowing an incapacitated woman to pass away peacefully is not. Or how the President willed a young woman to suck him off and put a cigar in her vagina because he had the power to do so was still allowed to run this "moral" country after he was found guilty of lying?
Let's have our parents teach us the morals they believe not the mixed messages that the US Government is sending.
Please stay out of the personal lives of your constituents. We don't need you tell us how to live our lives to be as "moral" as all of you.
She needs to learn the difference between fantasy and reality.
"The parents are responsible for teaching kids morals, not video games!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"She's right and actually has a solution to lessening violence, but we want our video games!"
Aren't we teaching our "kids" the same thing in Afghanistan and Iraq?
Did she actually use the word diss?
it's the fucking parents'.
Which explains why juvenile crime rates have been on a steady downward trend ever since Nolan Bushnell popped up with the Atari VCS.
Macs are back, GTA is bad...
When the hell did it become 2001 again?
but GTA is pretty fvcking twisted for a 18 y.o. to be playing... sorry, but it really, really is morally vapid. game or no game, there's no need to plant those seeds.
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
I know of some books that suggest similar things! Kids could read it then do it! Ban all forms of seeing while we are at it!!
If your kid has a problem defining fantasy vs reality, video games are the least of his concern...
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
if the government Senator Clinton represents didn't use violence every day to solve it's problems. This is quite a bit bigger problem than the extremely questionable link that video games have with real world violence. I realize that the government wants to maintain a monopoly on violence, but this seems to be taking it a bit too far.
Though I'm sure she pronounced it "color" originally..
Are they saying that we should only kill the prostitutes we don't sleep with, or what?
Specialization is for insects. -Heinlein
Cuz her husband is a frequent player and won't give ol' pumpkin legs the time of day.
News Reporters Make Tasty Polar Bear Treats!
I remember reading about how wonderful alcohol was, while in Jr. High and Highschools. Never Cry Wolf, by Farley Mowat, painted a lovely picture of something called "wolf juice" which was (IIRC) half whiskey and half beer. This book was required reading for some classes. Should I blame Mr. Mowat for how much I spend on ales, porters and stouts these days? I suggest a few million to conduct a meaningful study. If it's approved, I'll see you all down at the bar, first round is on me.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
The only reason the Republicans freak out so much and sling so much shit at Hillary Clinton is they know she's one of them. They aren't afraid of her because she's "liberal"-- she isn't. They're afraid of her because she's competition.
Hilary Clinton... used the word 'diss' in a sentence? Hilary Clinton?!?...
Isn't that one of the signs of the Apocalypse???!?!
Are we sure it wasn't George Clinton?....
Leave the Greater Toronto Area alone..
Is Hilary Clinton trying to swell the ranks of the Young Republicans? Whatever happened to Democrats sticking up for things like civil liberties? When do I get my Deomocrat party back from the corps and self righteous? Yet another disillusioned Democrat that desperatelhy want a middle of the road party to balance things out in this country of mine.
she doesn't knwo what she is talking about
and distancing herself from her husband's "moral" issues, in preparation for the 2008 election?
but it is ok to slam people if they are a man, white, or from the same place. or is that what all those deer hunter games are for?
"but money is the God of Algiers & Mahomet their prophet." - Rich. O'Bryen June 8th 1786
So close yet so far away...
Except not...
I want to kill male hookers too!
When I'm bashing the brains out of a hooker, I like to pretend its you.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Keep trying! ;-)
--- Lucas Di Pentima - Santa Fe, Argentina
So perhaps children should just take politicians and strive to be like them. After all it is so much better to have no conscience, be totally ego-centric, lie whenever it furthers your interests, take action when someone pays you instead of following your ideals, ...
Linux is not Windows
Im 21 years old, and Im definately not the oldest gamer out there. Someone should remind them that video games aren't just for children anymore.
"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."
--Senator Hillary Clinton, June 28, 2004
Do you really want her as your next president?
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
you just pissed off a ton of your potential future voters
Because it's worked so well nationally for Joe Lieberman?
Proud member of the American Non Sequitur Society. We might not make much sense, but boy do we love pizza!
"that teaches kids it's OK to diss people because they are a woman, they're a different colour or they're from a different place"
I have to agree it isn't ok! I like busted up a coupla prozzies and I got 3 stars and the next thing I knew I had the pigs bustin' caps all over the shop, I had to hide behind some old folk!
Well I died, and the moral of the story is, if you go busting up prozzies, the next day when you get out on a bribe you are gonna have to walk hella far and restart your mission.
So like I said, I have to argee...
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
She's just trying to look more moderate in preparation for her run for president in 2008. Once she's elected, she'll be back to her normal rabid leftwing lunatic self.
It IS ok to diss women.
I was murdering prostitutes WAY before GTA came out.
Nope, you're still an unemployed, pale-white virgin fucktard living in mom's basement, masturbating fervently to downloaded pr0n hoping mom won't hear you. Too bad your skill with D & D doesn't translate to anything in the real world.
Hillary plans to run for president in 2008 and wants to look like less of a liberal.
Heaven forbid that something be done about the parents who purchase these immoral and degrading games for their kids.
I'm still waiting for a game that will depict Clinton's white house years.
Leisure Suit Larry don't got shit on Bill!
I'm sure Hilary knows all about being loose.
...do you know where your children are?
You should! Personally, I love the game. However, I would never let my child play it.
That reminds my of something I heard once regarding children repeating what they see in movies/video games, "If that were true, then all of us that played Pac Man would be running around listening to repetitive dance music and eating little pills." This refers to the rave scene, of course. To which I was once a willing participant.
lousy t-shirt.
All these new fangled games allowing kids to diss each other... God forbid Hilary ever plays Counter-Strike.
...about violent games is that parents are buying them for their children, and abdicating the responsibility for moral choice about what their kids see and participate in to complete strangers, ie us game developers.
If they're making an informed choice to say "Ok Jimmy, you can smoke cops and bang that ho!", they can't complain about it. If they're not making that choice and the kid does it anyway, that's their fault too...
Game dev and music blog
fp
but she used Word's grammar checker to prepare her speech...
"...it's OK to diss people because they are a woman"
Dat ho' be trippin', yo!
GET FREE APPLE STUFF!
Your husband (the most powerful person in the world at the time) got a blowjob from an ugly intern, he blew his wad on her dress and defouled a fine cigar. And then lied about it on national tv.
What did our children learn from that experience.... Other than women that are with powerful men have to put up with such nonsense.
I never thought I would say this, but I couldn't agree more with Hillary Clinton.
"...that teaches kids it's OK to diss people..."
I hope that's a misquote.
rm -rf
Perhaps we should star to decry the games politicians play. They're clearly more damaging than any violent video game. Perhaps I should get a Jack Thomson equivalent to sue the government for allowing politicians to squander our money and yield to fringe interests.
She just lost my vote for her presidency.
Probably not.
that my vote for her for the election of 2008 is out the window. She might as well register as a Republican.
"Hey Hillary, looky here, I just blew up a tank with the rocket launcher, whooo-eh."
"Shut up Bill, I pandering to parents that don't take the time to raise their own kids here"
-or so you'd think
Those Australian papers always distort the truth. The distinguished Senator from New York clearly said "color."
I really like the part in GTA where the intern sticks the cigar up her ya-ya. That's HAWT!
first!
The Awful Truth
And the fact that the United States has only ever had white male Presidents and Vice Presidents doesn't do the same exact thing.
Trust me, the parent post sounded a lot funnier in my head. Please mod down.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
It doesn't make you kill prostitutes. Just something you are free to do, as in real life. I choose not to in SA, for various reasons.
Also I think with SA they have been more consistent with who is racist/sexist &c. You're character isn't overly either, yet the more dislikable people are, as in films for instance.
I bought it, and it had an 18 label on it. Moral of the story - DON'T LET YOUR KIDS PLAY IT IF THEY'RE NOT INTELLIGENT, FREE THINKING INDIVIDUALS. Jesus!
A democrat with morals?
Let the 2008 presidential campaign begin!
Because of your husband, more children know what a blowjob is. But if you think about Joe Lieberman was the guy to get all this blame the video game stuff rolling in the first place.
not!
This may be counter to most of the belief's here, but I think that with games such as GTA there is an underlying issue of responsibility. While I am not blaming the game company for what they have produced, I certainly do think that games such as GTA should not be played by kids. Simply telling parents to not allow their children to play really isn't enough and doesn't get to the core of the issue. What responsibility do game producers have for content that is likely to end up being played by kids? How about the responsibility of parents? And the responibility of your kid's friend's parents? ('cause just because you don't allow it in your house, doesn't mean that Billy doesn't have it.) I think there needs to be more discussion along these points and less finger pointing of who's to blame.
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
Right there is the problem. The game is marked as Mature. Parents, take an interest in your children and what they are doing! Practice self-censoring, it is not the goverment't concern. I believe the government has more pressing issues to concern themselves with!
Am I the only one who sees this as obvious?
It must have occurred to someone that maybe videogames are only part of the problem. Of course they do deserve researchers' attention, but the media attention has, imo, been way too one-sided (videogames are bad!).
Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!11!!oneone!!OMGWTFBBQ!!!!!
The ever-lasting cry of 'moral-superiority'.
To paraphrase a modern day philosopher...
"I love to go down to the schoolyard and watch all the little children jump
up and down and run around yelling and screaming.
They don't know I'm only using blanks."
...Rob
The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.
Gee, how intolerant Senator Clinton is of a minority culture...
Next up: GTA: District of Columbians
Just another loudmouth idiot on a soapbox spouting her ignorant $.02 since school shootings and child safety are again all the rage thanks to Chief Dum-Dum Whomp-um up in Cheeseville...
Clinton has been joined in her attack on violent games by Republican senators Sam Brownback and Rick Santorum - the latter of whom is best known for his outspoken stance on homosexuality, which he is accused of comparing to bestiality in public statements.
Obviously Senator Clinton wouldn't agree with everything Senator Santorum says... But given that she may try to run for President in 2008, you'd think she'd try to be careful so as not to align herself with someone who says something as wacky as that.
My userid is prime!
Doesn't 'slam' mean good now?
/. crowd, and the sadder thing is, the remaining 4% speak an unofficial klingon tongue.
So she gave it some cred huh? Like 'Yo, that GTA is slammin', ya mean?'.
Sorry watching to many teen movies. Back to work I guess. Heck it is dark outside, must be time to go home.
Or so I heard. I only speak Klingon, L33t and Esperanto, which sadly covers 96% of the
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
Speaking of Hillary, how about that video game where you murder someone and make it look like suicide in a park? Oh, wait...
"Nature bats last..."
A wild guess that she never even played the game, only asked if "is it true you can have sex with prostitutes" or "can you kill people?" If she had actually played the game she would have realized that for all this hoo-haa rarara stuff going on, its not actually that bad. Postal is probaby a worse game. GTA:III, GTA:VC, GTA:SA all are while not being tame, pretty unrealistic.
I dont know of anyone who after playing GTA:III decided to get a rocket launcher from an army surplus store, shoot down a police helicopter and then take out an AK-47 and blast the living dayligts out of 100 moronic cops. How can you believe a game where characters say "my mothers my sister?" Thats a real good description of reality there.
I suggest that Hillary get her head out of her ass before it gets so covered in s**t that she can see the light of day.
How long until the GTA dev team starts adding characters into new versions, like a Hillary Clinton hooker hanging out with gay male hookers that look suspiciously like Sam Brownback and Rick Santorum?
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
The top sentences follow
6 60 m on/story_ page/0,5744,12675659%255E2703,00.html
http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7
[1]
Clinton, who is reportedly planning to seek the Democratic presidential nomination for the 2008 election, has aligned herself with hardline right-wing Republican senators in order to pressure Congress into researching the impact of electronic media on children.
[2]
She wants a $90 million investigation to be launched into the impact of games and other electronic media on the "cognitive, social, emotional and physical development" of children, according to a Sunday Times report.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/com
[1]
They want President George W. Bush and Congress to launch a $US90 million ($116 million) investigation of the impact of electronic media on children's "cognitive, social, emotional and physical development".
[2]
Senator Clinton, who is expected to seek the Democrats' presidential nomination in 2008, has teamed up with two arch-conservative Republican senators, Rick Santorum and Sam Brownback
[commentary]
What is interesting is the 90 million dollars.
How did they make up that number? And whose
pocket is it going to help? The prostitutes on the streets or pyschologists?
One doesn't have to be "right wing" to object to rape, murder, and theft.
Ban the bible, lest the citizens learn to stone rapists, murders, and maybe even the politicians to death.
Firstly, let me say that I am generally against censorship. I have no problem with violent films or hardcore porn being accessible to adults.
However, having played GTA a bit, I have to say that I have changed my mind in some respects. The problem with GTA as I see it, is that it is very effective in teaching you how to act in an extreme criminal situation.
For instance - dragging the driver out of a car and then making off with a car. It I hadn't of played GTA, I don't think that would have occured to me, and it seems to be a very effective way of getting away (if you are not bothered about breaking the law).
Kids are playing GTA, kids are looking at porno on the Net, kids are shooting each other with guns from their parents unlocked gun cabinets. But GTA, porn, and guns are not meant to "teach" kids anything. They're not meant to be anywhere near kids.
We cannot babyproof the entire world, parents should take responsibility for controlling what children see, where they go, what they do, and what they play. If every parent were as firm with their kids as Hillary wants to be with the industry, there wouldn't be a problem to solve.
The only acceptable defense of scientific results is to say that they were the product of the Scientific Method.
What a suprise, a senator jumping on a bandwagon that they have no idea about. I find it extremely disturbing that children are being used as the reason to attack a form of media that is in no way targetted toward them.
Remember folks, votes count.
Legally enforcing those ESRB ratings seems like the obvious choice to please both sides.
Hillary Clinton doesn't want an impressionable 15 year old playing GTA. I'm 22, and want to play whatever the hell I please because I'm an adult that's responsible for his own actions.
I know the ESRB rating system has been around for a while, but nobody enforces it. Nobody is preventing a 15 year old kid from buying a copy of GTA, BMX XXX, or any other game that *probably* isn't all that appropriate for younger kids, even if I played similar games at that age myself and have never physically harmed another human being.
The problem is that enforcing this screws the retail chains that carry these titles (in addition to screwing the under-18 market, but since they can't vote, I doubt Hilly cares anyway).
-----
jonathan barket
http://www.choppingblock.org/d/20050328.html
The caption suggests that it's okay to kill prostitutes, as long as you tip them well.
Do not mistake it for a second, Hilary is on an all out Presidential Campaign from here on out to 2008. Every move she makes will be calculated, and [mostly] a movement to the center by selectively choosing conservative concerns/solutions.
The thing that bothers me, isnt so much the "oh think of the children, the children, the horror!" because it seems to be a fundamental battle cry of politicians, but just the way they go about doing it. They all seem to be focused on content rather than procedure. Focus on laws/guidlines that keeps this stuff out of youngin's hands: thats fine. But stop wasting your breath decrying the actual content of GTA trying to rally people into what, banning the game all together? Just focus on procedure, and then we'll just be left with criticizing political prioritizing (IE: congressional baseball steroids testimony/the whole nation being focused on a 15 year long braindead female in Florida while there is a war going on and active terrorists in the world).
Anyone wanna guess what crypto-totalitarians do in their free time? I bet its not quite as tame as playing GTA.
A better commentary on the crisis is available here, here, and here.
"What do you think?" "I think 'What, do you think?!'"
Nope, you also are still an unemployed, pale-white virgin fucktard living in mom's basement, masturbating fervently to downloaded pr0n hoping mom won't hear you. Too bad your skill with D & D doesn't translate to anything in the real world. And on top of that, you weren't even remotely close.
...but between GTA and Tony Hawk Underground, THUG is the more "dangerous" game. Glorifying extreme violence isn't going to create an epidemic of kids bitch-slapping their hoes and having shootouts in the streets, if they wouldn't have without GTA's influence. The kids getting caught up in drugs and gang violence have far more destructive influences than video games to worry about. But THUG, on the other hand, turns vandalism into a sport, by associating it with skateboarding - and kids from otherwise low-risk environments are far more likely to have difficulty directing their own moral compass when it comes to spray-painting graffiti or slashing tires, compared to carjacking or killing people.
Yet nobody ever mentions Tony Hawk Underground, because Grand Theft Auto has raised the bar so far when it comes to shock value.
Repeat after me: It is just a game.
If games were not being blamed it would be rock music, or Dungeons and Dragons, or rap, or anything else that would allow people to take as little responsibility for their own actions as possible.
This argument is also nothing remotely new. It's been around as long as video games have, and has been going strong since Doom. This article/blurb from Hillary offers absolutely nothing new or insightful.
"Children are playing a game..."
BUT~! GTA is *NOT* a Children's game. This suggests that the parents or legal guardians of the 'children' in question are the ones encouraging the sexual encounters with prostitutes. Becaus they should know beforehand what kind of stuff their fragile american children are playing. Just a scapegoat for our screwed-up society.
Hilary Clinton is positioning herself as a strong proponent of the "moral values" that were a major component of Bush's reelection in order to conquer the White House in 2008.
My personal gripe is that no one talks about the morality of
- invading another country,
- letting American jobs go overseas,
- cutting services to the poor, and
- screwing people in the public educational system.
As described in South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut, we live in a nation who identifies amorality with dirty words and fictional violence, not real violence and letting the "American Dream" fall to ruin. Sure, I'd rather see a Democrat get into office, but somebody should be setting the dialogue to something besides gay marriage and video games.goverment sponsored no less
clicky
unless you are saying they have wasted 200+ million dollars and games do not influence you at all
Does no one ever read the ratings on games? This game is for adults. I wish people would start regulating their kids instead of trying to regulate an industry.
If a movie theater lets a 10-year-old into an R movie it's their fault, but if a store sells an MA game to the same 10-year-old it's the game company's fault. When is it mom and dad's fault?
The real question we need to ask is what *OTHER* issues are blowing up in their faces, so much so that these "elected" politicians needs to drag out old issues to divert our attention away from.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
Uh, can you point to a book that rewards the reader for killing a hooker?
Didn't think so.
Don't mix up your media: video games are NOT books.
Maybe George Bataille wrote some twisted stuff, but it doesn't compare to the passive, mindless stimulation that video games satisfy.
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
If in three years, during democratic primaries, anyone tries to sell you a line about how "electable" Ms. Clinton is. This woman does not speak for you and she doesn't speak for advocates of personal freedom. Don't let her try to claim she does.
Where in the US Constitution does it say the worthless fucks have the right to do that?
I quick google search on this shows that this is intended to repeal tax cuts, and has nothing to do with ethics.
There is only one thing that can save us all!
People! Join me in my quest to rediscover childhood!
"Never trust a computer you can not throw out of a window..."
"Congress!"
You are an aspiring stooge who, in the course of your career (the game) may:
- Marry a corrupt politician!
- Commit various crimes that will later be covered up by political allies!
- Take bribes from special interests!
- Screw (literally if you want) the people you were elected to represent!
- Move to a state where you will likely win election and pretend to represent them!
- Buy votes with other people's money!
The game is still in development, but the beta will be available in Spring '07.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
I know I will get hammered for this. And I also know that not everyone believes in the Bible. But I must post this anyway. 1 Thess. 5:21-22 says, "Test all things; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil." Again, whether you believe it or not, these are important words to live by. And from where I am standing GTA is not good... in fact, it appears to be very much a form of evil.
stop Bush playing the real game in Iraq (and elsewhere), so they are after fantasy games.
about Rock Music.
They give us Soldier of Fortue, Battlefield 1942 (multiple expansions available), etc. You see, these games are ok, because they encourage youth to kill foreigners. It encourages to "fight for your country because our beliefs are better than yours." Give me a break Hilary Clinton. GTA shows the problems we have in the U.S. and gives the youth another route to experience it, rather than first hand. Hand them a game instead of a gun. If you are so worried about the prostitutes health, which aren't supposed to be selling their bodies in the first place under you so-called laws, then GET RID OF THE PROSTITUTES! Enforce your laws, before you try to bash something you don't understand. Interests change as you get old, and that is what Hilary Clinton is doing. Get a grip, get over your ignorance and realize violent games don't kill people. People kill people. You create the guns that murder our country.
and distancing herself from her husband's "moral" issues, in preparation for the 2008 election?
Hell, that worked so well for Gore in 2000.
Eight years of unprecendented prosperity, and the Democratic Party runs a guy who tries to DISTANCE himself from the previous administration? A guy whose wife was a leading member of the PMRC, and whose running mate is one of the most enthusiastic censors in the Senate? Why, with a strategy like that the Democrats should have won in a landslide! No social liberal could resist such a ticket.
(Let's not discuss whether Gore actually eked out a win the election or not. Everything there is to say about THAT has already been said, 'k?)
Evil as it is, it's vastly less bad than the GOP, which if it had its way would allow the mob to rule over basic principles like separation of powers and the authority of the courts to enforce the law.
sulli
RTFJ.
Except reading does require the ability to read, and some critic sense, which in effect means that a book have less chance nowadays to reach out most kids.
Je n'ai pas d'avenir Je n'ai qu'un destin Celui de n'être qu'un souvenir C'est pour demain
Let's make a video game where you are the President, and the object is to have an affair with your Intern and try to cover the whole thing up to a country.
I'm sure Rockstar would set aside some developers for that.
Ya know, just mod this post down. It was better in my head.
Monica was neither paid nor murdered.
Some national guardsmen were bribed, and Vince Foster was murdered, but that's completely different.
(Holy crap, my tin foil hat almost slipped off while I was typing that! I gotta be careful or else my house will be the next Ruby Ridge!!!1!!one!)
Sure can. The bible. Do as it teaches, and you will receive everlasting life.
Moo.
I'm all for free speech. As a Christian, if there was no free speach, I would not be able to proclaim the gospel legally if it wasn't for free speach. But let me take that hat off and put my parent hat on.
I have two boys. They know they would never be allowed to play those games in my house. They know that they dare not TRY to buy them, even if the minimum wage worker at EBGames/Walmart/Target/Blockbuster WOULD sell it to them. I've done my due dilligance in teaching them what's acceptable and what is not. Even cartoons these days meant for kids are terrible (Recess on the disney channel last week: "How's it hanging principal whoever" and don't forget rugrat's Dr. Lipshitz)
BUT, my kids go to public schools. They have friends that go to public schools. They have friends who's parents I have not done a criminal background check on. Am I supposed to lock my kids up until I can get a background check on every person they may come in contact with, and an inventory of every game that they ever purcase? No. I think there should be limits to what's reasonable. Where's that line? I don't know, but it needs to be somewhere or eventually we're going to have games that are manuals for anarchy and death. We're not far from that now.
I guess you can tell I'm conservative, and not a big HRC fan, but I must say, "Keep dissin'"
Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle, and quick to anger.
....she had played "Narc". I'd write more but I have to get back to taking my acid, meth, ludes, and crack!
Various religous texts murder people as punishment for crimes against the relevent invisible man.
Trolling is a art,
Is the game terrible? Yes Is the game fun? Yes Should the government be telling creative people what they can and can not develop? No This goes hand in hand with freedom of speech. The core issue lies in morality (lack thereof) and parents who just don't care. Let capitolism determine what will be produced.
Is it that time of the month already?
"This is a silent epidemic of media desensitisation that teaches kids it's OK to diss people because they are a woman, they're a different colour or they're from a different place." ...or because they're fictional.
That's pre 7-11 thinking....
The Bible doesn't command that anyone except for Jews over the age of 2,000 do any of those things.
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
One my screen actual comment takes less than 1/5 screen estate of the TFA, so why should if care about that ..
What is wrong with these people?
The game is rated M, which means mature, which means not for kids under 17. Retailers check too. I'm 24, I got carded buying Halo, which is also rated M. I acutally lauged at the guy selling it to me when he asked my age. I said "older than you" and handed him my license.
So let's see here. The game industry is voluntairly rating their games, retailers are doing their duty in restricting sales. How then do kids get them? Oh yes, the parents buy the games for them. Speaking of GTA, there was a kid in line behind me, I'd guess about 14, with his mom who was getting him the new GTA San Andreas.
Seems to me the problem isn't with the game makers, seems to me the problem is with parents actually having to raise their kids. However that implies personal responsibility and that's the last things any politician wants to suggest people need. No people want to be told it's not YOUR fault, we'll find someone else to blame.
So, if you feel the game isn't appropriate for your kids, by all means do your duty as a aprent and don't allow them to play it. However don't come over and try to tell me what I am or am not allowed to play. Your morals are yours, don't try to apply them to society at large.
All these politicians rail on GTA and the like as the bain of our children's existence. That because they go and play these violent and explicit games, they grow up and become mass murderers. This is, BS.
The real problem is when both parents have to work, often times more than one job, just to afford a place to live. This means they have little time to spend with their kids and do crazy things like see what kind of games their kids are playing.
If these politicians want to fix REAL problems, then start working on that one. Oh wait, they don't know how to fix the real problem so they'll make up some fake ones.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Actually I thought that this game was rated MATURE, i.e. it's for ADULTS not kids.
The people to blame for kids playing it are the stores that sell it to kids and the adults who buy it for kids. I'm pretty sure these adults or stores wouldn't sell pornography or booze to kids, yet this game should come in the same category.
What is required are mandatory ratings backed up by federal laws to punish those who sell these games to kids, or buy them for kids. A few soccer moms locked up for buying their kids games targeted at adults would bring the world up to speed pretty quickly and help them realise who the target audience is.
"This is a silent epidemic of media desensitisation that teaches kids it's OK to diss people because they are a woman, they're a different colour or they're from a different place."
When what we SHOULD be teaching them is it is OK to diss whomever they choose, regardless of race, color, sex, occupation, relation, political view, etc.
B-)
A friend will come and bail you out of jail, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "damn that was fun!"
Look here
:
The best quotes
"Serious violent crime levels declined since 1993. "
"Firearm-related crime has plummeted since 1993."
The most amusing thing is Doom was released at the peak in 1993. Perhaps people are taking their frustations out in violent video games instead of real life?
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
All they have to do is make a law that says you can't sell M rated games to minors. That's it, then you can't say it is effecting kids, becuase kids can't get this games. Why can't they do this? Is there something wrong with the ESRB. http://www.esrb.org/
Show me a state that is doing this? Illinois isn't, they are trying to ban all types of games (not just M rated ones) with vague discrition of what is bad. Why can't they just use the esrb standard. The developers like it, the parents like, the only person who doesn't like it is the Government.
mnewberg.com
This is such complete crap. I used to respect 'Ms. Clinton' but lately she's really been getting on my nerves with this nonsense. Parents should parent their kids. If your six-year-old is playing GTA then it's your fucking fault, period.
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
"This is a silent epidemic of media desensitisation that teaches kids it's OK to diss people because they are a woman, they're a different colour or they're from a different place"
On behalf of Senator Clinton, I'd like to apologize to all the different-colored women from different places...
This from a woman who accepts cheating from her husband. What kind of moral standard is that? Being the first lady and accepting repeated betrayal teaches what to young girls? To accept such behavior from guys?
If a player has a character have sex with a prostitute, it's completely different from actual cheating! Simulation of games is completely different from simulation of mathematics (where simulation is doing). Though it can get fuzzy in MMORPGs when people start having various relationships.
Mrs. Clinton accepts and enables immoral behavior and complains when a GAME allows fantasy?! And she most likely accepted Bill's behavior so she could run for politics herself. What hogwash!
In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
The thoughts some people have when cooking in the kitchen.
If you kill prostitutes, you will attract police attention. It's not OK in GTA. If what GTA does is "teaching children(since when did parents sign up their kids for GTA classes anyhoo?)" then doesn't real life teach us that is OK as well? It's OK if we don't mind cops ramming us into walls and shooting us to death.
Hillary Clinton has joined right wing advocates...
You mean the "left wing" don't you? Wasn't it her counterpart, the former Second Lady Tipper Gore, who had a campaign against violence in music because it would cause impressionable youth to murder policemen? Wasn't she joined by former Democrat VP candidate Joe Lieberman?
While there are many on the right who want to limit what our children can see or hear, they are joined by an equally strident group of do-gooders on the left.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
I don't see anything that leads me to believe that Senator Clinton would support legislation banning such games.. so I'm not sure what all the knee-jerks are frothing about.
What they are doing is studying the effect on children. Gathering more data is never a bad thing, although I am concerned that it's not really an appropriate use of government money (especially $100 million or so).
In the end, this is extremely similar to Bill's pitch for the V-Chip in the 96 election.. right down to Dick Morris.
Someone should remind you that video games are for children!
Those are all things that are blamed for their evil influence on children.
Well, games aren't just for kids, neither are comic books or cartoons. They are medias, they happen to have been mostly targetted at kids, but NOT exclusively.
The movie industry has a (somewhat stupid) rating system, they made it up to escape legal limitations to what they could film. Games have a rating system, all people have to do is enforce it.
GTA isn't a kid's game, don't sell 'em to kids, and parents, don't buy it for your kids. Simple as that.
You can't take the sky from me...
Hilary is just another Politically correct, neoliberal, faux progressives, rightwing Democrat. Bill Clinton was as rightwing as Nixon, probably more so. That rightwing bastard sold our jobs to the globalist corporations overseas.
This Rich Rightwing Bitch wife of his is as powerMAD and as powerHungry as Bill ever was. She is running for Prez in 2008.
Count on it!
Our job is to get a real Progressive nominated in 2008.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
First off, this game isn't free, it's for profit. It's simply an escallation of a genre of game which probably are the merger of FPS, 1on1 combat and racing with a little RPG sprinkled over it to give it some place to go. What's probably a good exercise is trying to guess what the next iteration will be like.
It really is pretty sorry when you realize you don't mind sitting at a screen and wiping out a bunch of lives. The thing of it is, you never realized yourself becoming less sensitive about life.
When I came out of cancer treatment, something I wouldn't wish on anyone, I experienced a twinge at watching the Deathstar blow apart in Star Wars. You know that thing is full of people, many would not actually have been evil. Yet that's OK because it's fiction and they were serving the Empire, right?
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
"Senator Hillary Clinton has joined right wing advocates in decrying the gaming industry as a paragon of loose morals and corrupting influences."
Oh, come now! The United States Senate itself is "a paragon of loose morals and corrupting influences!" If Congress spent half of the energy it spends on trying to reform us on reforming itself, we might actually have a respectable national government for once.
I play video games to get away from stuff like this, and now some USS wants to take that away from me as well?
It is the role of the PARENT to raise the CHILD.
It is not the role of the GOVERNMENT.
I do not want the GOVERNMENT RAISING my KIDS.
People forget that the colonists were not rebelling against Britain. They were fighting against their own government. That is why the founders were so against big government. They felt it should be kept at a very safe distance and strongly kept in check.
comment directly in my journal
I don't think these politicians or other concerned parties typically try to limit the purchase of these games by adults who want to play the game... but they do want to make sure that minors do not get the game without their parents knowing. At that point it is the partents concern. However, parents do need to be educated as to what is in some games, such as GTA3, so they can make good decisions regarding whether or not they want it influencing their children. I agree it is the parent's repsonsibility to instill morals in their kids, but we should still make sure that kids can't get games that are adult oriented. One question I do have... would a parent be charged with anything if they knowingly bought and showed porn to a his or her child, who is a minor? I am thinking not, in which case the choice of what games a kid is allowed to play should be up to the parent, not the kid.
GTA is rated Mature 17+ in the US and it's rated 18 in the UK. If you can't distinguish right from wrong at 17+ you've got bigger problems than a silly video game "corrupting" you.
If you're younger than 17 you shouldn't be playing the game in the first place, that's what ESRB ratings are for. It's the responsibility of the parents to ensure they raise their children responsibly and not give them access to inappropriate material. Parents blaming video games when they do a shit job of teaching morals and boundaries is disgraceful.
I fucking hate it when games get blamed for society's problems. Worse still is when clueless politicians jump on the bandwagon.
Who are, well, young.
It is a silly, almost stupid game. The violence is nothing worse than what we used to see on "Tom and Jerry" and the other "violent" cartoons.
HRC has screwed up. This is as bad as saying Rock and Roll causes teenage pregnancy or that Elvis morally corrupts our youth.
Look, at the moment she is worried about cartoon hookers being killed, there are REAL kids in combat in Iraq. There are REAL seniors that are losing their benefits. Let's forget GTA for a moment and concentrate on the IMPORTANT issues, not all this fluff...
Or is fluff all Congress is about anymore?
IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV
...The kids that play these games will grow up and know how to keep their Ho's in check....
Unlike Bill....
He just got the BJ's but didn't kill 'em afterwards....I guess that's ok then
I believe Mrs. Clinton needs to play a little GTA. The game does not encourage your to have sex with hookers and kill them, it merely presents the option. And if I recall, the game is rated "mature." If the "children" are playing a "mature game" then it is because their parents either purchased it for them, or were too lazy to prevent them from owning such a game. Shame on you Mrs. Clinton for going after easy political points.
The main reason the game is so much fun is that it's an extremely open environment. A 'world simulator' if you will. My wife flipped when she heard it "was a game where you have to pick up hookers and then kill them". That's not at all a required behavior nor is it what the game is about. I hope games continue to push the envelope in physics and what is possible in the game world. Having a choice of how to play makes the game that much more entertaining for grown-ups.
I've spent most the day playing GTA:SA and have played every GTA released up to this point and I have to say.
GTA DOES NOT ENCOURAGE YOU TO FUCK WHORES!
It is infact more cost effective to just goto a hospital or a restraunt and restock that way. It's also quicker and easier. Prostitutes take alot of work and killing them wastes time and ammo.
But obviously no one mentions GTA can be played with no violence at all if you wish to ignore the missions..
I like muppets.
No, she's doing exactly what her husband did when he slammed Sister Souljah and advocated for V-Chips. Dick "Triangulation" Morris wrote the song sheet, she's just singing off it.
sulli
RTFJ.
Both Gov. Blagovich and Sen. Clinton are Democrats.
You can think of their stance on this issue as right wing if it makes you feel better to do so, but you can't classify *THEM* as right wing.
That "Manhunter" game was deffently not something i would like any children to play with.
:p) instead it was the news. NOW THATS HORROR for u, because you know (even as a kid) its real.
But, AFAIK sicko's have been killing prostitutes and such long before GTA and television for that matter. Are there any statistics that suggest, that because of interative entertainment are producing more psycopats today than say.. 80 years ago?
I have a hard time beliving so, if somebody get influced by a video game to go out and rape and kill somebody i think he/she would have done so anyway. I mean, if a piece of entertainment can send you on a killing spree, your a pretty unstable person and a picture of a kitty could might as well have done the trick.
Funny note, when I was a kid what freaked me out the most wasn't the horror movies i wasn't allowed to see (i did so anyways though
Isn't this the whole reason that ratings systems were placed on video games? To keep games like GTA away from kids unless their parents were allowing them to have it. This is not the governments responsibility to try and stomp out this type of entertainment. At this point it falls on stores which sell M rated games to minors and on the parents who allow their children to play these games and not properly educating them on difference between reality and GTA.
Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them.
Her husband can get a hummer in the oval office but I can't get a little virtual to refill my health meter? WTF!?!
I wonder if she ever played the game... Well, actually i really dont wonder. I know she didnt... So why take here seriously?!
"Never trust a computer you can not throw out of a window..."
...ok seriously though, it sounds like all of the people joinging the fight against this have their own crusade.
Would they be so upset if in the game you would instead be a girl who purposely goes on a date with a sexual offender and then killed them? Or if there was a mission to go into an abortion clinic and take out hte doctors? Or maybe Rick Santorum (FTA) would be happy if instead the game was going around running over people he considers to be "deviant" or wrong in other ways?
This is simply asisnine, maybe if people got fired up about their children in a manner that made them become better, more attentive parents they wouldn't have to worry about morals in games they so heavily rely on the raise thier kids.....JMHO
Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them...
That point is so overplayed. Having sex with a hooker to get your health back is so horribly inefficient. In the time it takes to find a hooker, find a suitable place for her, wait for her to do her thing, then have her get out of your car and back on the road, I could have driven across town to one of the hospitals and picked up a health pack -and- hit up Ammu-nation for an armored vest.
And the money is frankly a joke, they only carry a couple hundred at most as I recall. It's the typical MMOG farming concept; stop playing the story for an hour, do firefighter missions over and over; by the time you hit level 12 you're making some serious cash that'll last you quite some time. Vice City had buildings that would automatically generate revenue for you too, if you need cash just go for a cruise around town and swing by your buildings.
The hooker thing is really getting to be an outdated point.
...about games targetting children are irrelevant. So are the opinions of children about guns, porn, drugs, etc. That's all for parents and other adults to decide, and for children to rant about on Slashdot.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
I dunno about games, but I'm pretty sure we've seen plenty of it from politics.
"She's outflanking us! Push the joystick further to the right!"
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
As a personal opinion of GTA, I completely agree with Hilary Clinton. This is a very rare event.
However in view of the fact that is was she who made this comment, and that she is a US Senator, I am concerned that her proposed solution will be to pass some sort of controlling legislation, which I would most definitely not agree with.
It is not the business of government to get involved with this stuff.
We do not have to like the message that something conveys to allow it to be legal.
if it's not made by Rockstar, they just might let it go...
Just don't tell anyone about God of War, because that game is hilariously violent/sexual and ridiculously fun to plan.
Here we go again.. The nanny state takes a step forward..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Why don't you stop supporting the New GOP and join the Constitution or Libertarian parties?
I would suggest the Parent post look at the Libs.
I'd rather vote FOR what I believe in and lose than support some schmuck who is bought and paid for by corporations.
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
you've apparently never actually read the bible...
What about the game where you trane terrorists to take out Skyscrapers, not the video game, the real life game.
Do they need glasses to correct their perspective.
I don't think you "get" the Bible. Even if killing certain individuals were a commandment to Christians (which is most certainly not the case), "obeying" such a command would not lead to everlasting life according to very basic Christian theology. Of course, it is popular to bash Christianity for ideas that it doesn't hold, so I don't blame you, but you are just plain wrong.
Hillary wants to be Madame President. But she has a reputation of being too much of lefty for many to tolerate her.
So, she's been on a campaign to create a history of "moving towards the center" (read: become more palatable to the Christian Right) that will be proudly trumpeted starting in 2007.
This is more than Hillary: notice Rev. Jackson coming to "aid" of Terri Schiavo, but only after her fate has been all but decided (even if they attempted to re-hydrate her now, she's likely too far gone to be saved).
This is all a horrendous effort by the Democrats to remake the party into a Bush Lite organization. They should be ashamed of themselves, really. Moreover, it'll fail.
I think I understand Sentator Clinton... games should not be so realistic. In reality we could make a choice to hire a prostitute and then kill her... or any of the other sick and probably insane things you can do in GTA, but we don't. However we still have the option to do it, that's life. Of course there probably are consequenses, and even the game has consequenses, the cops will chase you. So kudos to the developers who let your character do whatever you want it to do, even if it is sick and twisted (and also fun at the same time.) Besides she is also misinformed, the game does not "encourage" any of the activities, it simply allows them to happen. In the form factor, cookie cutter, linear world of games today it is awesome to see games that let you have free reign to be an insane homicidal maniac... if you choose to be.
Was she talking about GTA or her husband?
Hillary Clinton is no more leftist than you are. She's always been like this. The fact she's a woman and you hate her does not make her a "liberal".
How about a game with big bonus points for whacking self-aggrandizing politicians? Since they're getting in such a tizzy for pretend cop-whacking, let's up the ante to pretend politician-whacking. You could even lift Postal 2' startup disclaimer "This game should be played by children,.......or politicians seeking to enhance their careers."
"Joining the ranks of such luminaries as Jack Thompson and Governor Blagojevich, GamesIndustry.biz has the word that Senator Hillary Clinton has joined right wing advocates in decrying the gaming industry as a paragon of loose morals and corrupting influences. From the article: "Children are playing a game that encourages them to block off public hallways by stacking boxes and other objects on top of eachother...This is a silent epidemic of media desensitisation that teaches kids it's OK to break toilets, rip furnaces from the wall, and generally violate fire safety standards using whatever happens to be lying around." Commentary available at The Australian."
This will only increase as games give us more options.
Note that in GTA you can also just participate in races all day, never stealing anything or doing anything illegal. Does this mean not doing anything illegal is encouraged? Because you can.
Note that in GTA you can also just sit in front of the couch and play videogames all day. Does this mean it's being encouraged? Because.. err..
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
These games are no worse than movies. You want to talk about prostitutes and murder, check out the recent movie Monster with Charlize Theron. It has all the above. Parents wouldn't let their child watch that rated R movie so why are they letting their kids play a rated M game? It really is THE SAME THING. Nobody is telling Hollywood to stop making these movies, but it's okay to complain about the gaming industry and their lack of morals. They say the games are being pushed to kids but I don't know too many kids who are paying $50 for these games(I believe M rated games have age restrictions for sales by many retailers anyway). Either their parents buy them or they just don't get them. Hillary is right. There is a HUGE PROBLEM in this county and it's not the games...it's the PARENTING.
This woman clearly does not play games, and is entirely missing the point.
We enjoy GTA not because we aspire to do the same things in real life, it's merely escapism from real life. While I might laugh at certain "bad" actions I'd do in the game, I'd be horrified before I complete any of them in real life, not to mention the emotional/legal repercussions. Please!
That said, I think that the compelling nature of games (which is only improving) MAY influence the MOST impressionable minds. Isn't there a game ratings system for this very reason?
I thought he was talking about Toronto Greater Area... then we would be in trouble.
But, I'm sure this only applies to "Right Wing" athletes; all those free-thinkin', freedom-loving "Left Wing" athletes aren't so mentally weak as to let repetitive mental reinforcement influence their performance...
Or, does this just mean that the "best" prostitute killers will be those that "practice" using video games? Probably, so that's OK... Carry on!
-- -pjk Perry Kundert perry@kundert.ca http://kundert.2y.net
Just yesterday, I mowed down a mall full of old ladies and children with a spread gun.
DAMN YOU, RED FALCON!
This could result in some fun procrastination on slashdot come the next election. Hilary Clinton is still looking like the front-runner to be the 2008 Presidential candidate for the Democratic party. I get the feeling, thinking back to the threads around the time of the November election, that slashdot's US readers are mostly Democrat leaning (at a rough guess, I'd estimate 60% Democrat, 10% Republican, 30% other parties or apathetic). None of the senior Republicans have made any comments like this about violent games to the best of my knowledge, although I'm pretty sure one of the potential Democrat candidates last time (was it Liebermann?) was pretty anti-games as well.
This begs a question...
Would you vote based on self-interest or broader conviction in an election like this? It's not such an issue for me, as were I a US citizen, I'd probably vote Republican and none of the parties here in the UK make much noise about games and actually seem to like the games industry, as it creates wealth and jobs. But if I were in the US, I would worry that having a President who'd made comments like this could result in my hobby being over-regulated, or even banned. Would you vote for Hillary, even knowing that this could happen, because you believed in broader principles her party stood for, or would you vote for the candidate less likely to have a negative effect on your own personal life?
read leviticus sometime. really.
---
Is this the MPAA? Is this the RIAA? Is this the DMCA? I thought it was the USA!
I would argue that children should not be playing games such as GTA, Halo, etc etc. They are not meant for children. It's irresponsible parenting to allow your child to. We have to draw the line somewhere. 6 year olds should NOT be allowed to play these games. Adults should. Where do we draw that line? Sure, a lot of books contain this kind of stuff. But do kids read those kind of books? Not much, and not nearly in the quantity that they play video games. The most violent and disturbing books I have read I read in high school. In an educational environment, I'm cool with that.
fr0sty posst
. . . for its systemic degradation of women.
"I worked hard for it. I deserve it. And I have it," Campbell said. "It's all mine."
...and which books would those be? Exactly which great works of literature talk about what a great idea it is to have sex with a prostitute and then kill her?
It's a straw-man argument.
Besides, no one's (no one sane, anyway) is suggesting these games be banned. However, their sale should be restricted to those who society has decided are old enough to perceive the difference between fantasy and reality. If a parent or guardian believes their kid is mature enough to handle it, fine. They can buy it for them. We don't allow kids to buy alcohol, cigarettes or porn until we think they're old enough to decide for themselves. Why should games with adult themes be any different?
Frankly, too many parents are totally IGNORANT of what their kids are watching, playing and listening to. So parents should be more informed, who disagrees with this?
MOST kids have a problem discerning the difference between fantasy and reality, at one age or another. I know I did (at least, until about 8 or so). And who among us didn't have a teenage friend who honestly believed professional wrestling was real?
Give me a break.
m-
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
This is yet another example of the ongoing 'censorship in the name of christianity' fad of the current US legislation.
Not only is it ridiculous, but it makes a mockery of free speech and insults the intelligence and parenting skills of all US citizens.
"Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them," she said in a statement on the issue. "This is a silent epidemic of media desensitisation that teaches kids it's OK to diss people because they are a woman..."
Throw in a couple of male gay prostitutes and problem solved!
Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice doggie!" until you can find a rock.
Repeat after me: S P E E C H
Try again: S P E E C H
Now that you can spell, try again with your opinion and people might listen to you.
I don't think that the government should try to legislate morality (after all, before you legislate morality, you have the more difficult task of deciding which morality to legislate). But I don't think it is so simple as you put it. The idea is that government has authority in the public sphere, but no authority in the private sphere. This sounds reasonable and may be a great goal, but doesn't work in practice. What happens in public affects people's private lives, and what happens in private affects the public. If Clinton can determine that GTA is damaging to the public welfare of the US, then the government will try to censor it.
I'm not defending censorship or Clinton (or her husband), and I see the irony as clearly as you do. I just don't trust the public/private dichotomy to protect individual rights or civic wellbeing. Rather than just telling government to stay out of our private lives, we need to change the way we think about government and the state. Otherwise, every time it is in the public interest to suspend private rights (e.g. the Patriot Act), individuals will lose out.
Bill was playing the first version while Monica did her thing, so Hillary has a little vendetta against GTA.
Seriously, I would agree with her but I think the images of war that are currently pasted everywhere (newspaper, tv, magazines, the internet, etc.) are far worse. GW is a worse influence on children than any video game will ever be. And that's just because he's evil, notice I didn't mention his grammar skills (which makes me wonder: are republicans missing some kind of gene? I mean, shit, look at Quayle.)
Wishing I was a millionaire since 1969.
At least politicians don't know that there are game publishers other than Rockstar or id.
That all the youth look up to whether they be the steroid using, womanizing athletes or extremely faithful and ethical politicians we seem to find. No you're right it's the stupid little cartoon game that people play to relieve some stress or have a little fun. Hell when I played Mortal Combat I totally wanted to go around and zap people with my lightning move and then finish them. I'm still pushing for better parenting after what I've seen out there in the real world.
I say we just grow up, be adults and die.
Yes, my kids don't watch TV, and I control there video game intake.
I do NOT control the enviroment of the 800 other kids in their school.
So, at wnat point does somebody step in when other kids aren't behaving?
Every syy an 8 year old reinact a killing from GTA when 'playing'? I have, too many times to think these games pose 'no influence'.
" torturing someone in a war that was permitted under false pretenses is morally acceptable "
nobody said it was moral. remember the outrage?
To insinuate she has no morals because of something her husband did is just shallow.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This just goes to show you how useless Game Ratings are.
When Sega started game ratings back in the 90's I said that it wouldn't do a thing about kids getting the game they want, because the'll just go to Grandpa and get him to get it for them. apparently, If 8 year old's are gettting a hold of GTA then obviously I was right somewhere.
First of all, the rating system is inherently flawed. Where's the AO rating? GTA (or any Rockstar game for that matter) would be a shining canidate for an AO rating. At least then it would be more accurate rating then mature. Not that it matters, because the store would happily sell GTA to 8 year old Billy because he's got $50 dollars to buy it. and thats where the second problem comes in.
Their going to get their hands on it and their going to play it. And since censoring is not the answer and ratings obviously suck, then the parents need to be involved somewhere telling the kid that this stuff is not real life, and that in real life you go to prison and go meet your new friend Bubba.
Heh. Maybe the next GTA could simulate prison every time your arrested. and not in the "Manhunt" sort of way.
In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!
So let me get this straight.
Games have no effect on people(according to 80% of the messages here), they were crazy to start with.
Yet, marketing is the only reason why people buy/use crappy software, food, cars, music etc.
If your kid has a problem defining fantasy vs reality, video games are the least of his concern...
I agree with your sentiment, but isn't that part of what being a kid is all about? I wasted a good year of my life on drugs to acheive exactly that, only to find out that drugs can only give a cheap imitation of the wonder of exploring the world AND exploring your imagination simultaneously, and being unable to separate the two.
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
Ban the bible, lest the citizens learn to stone rapists, murders, and maybe even the politicians to death. ... on second thought, that doesn't sound half bad.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Hillary, becoming... a conservative? If she's a conservative then Bill Gates will stop selling Windows soon, and just give it away.
Have you ever noticed that hillary is just moving all around, buddying up with whoever she thinks will get her into the white house? Her political stance is... well, whatever the polls happen to say that day.
Thoughtful comment on slashdot, please mod down appropriately.
-- Liberalism is a mental disorder.
So what? yes, it encourages players to do very immoral and questionable things. Yes it is completely devoid of positive values. Yes, it's probably a good idea to rate it "R" the same way a movie is. But I still fail to follow the logic where the suggestion to not allow this kind of thing to exist at all comes in. If you cannot be bothered to find out what something is when your kids ask for it, then you have no business having kids, and fuck you for wanting me to adjust my life for your lack of effort. Also fuck you for the self-rightious indignation that you dress up your lazyness in. While it may "take a villiage" to have the general public spaces be safe places for everyone, that does not carry through to you deciding to stand on high and dictate all behavior. Here's the only self-help guide you will ever need to help you to reach a better, more symbiotic existance with all other peoples and cultures, "Fuck off and get over yourself". That should put an end to all of this self-serving, self-rightious, me-centric fucking crap. Anytime you feel the need to step into the light and name an evil, stop, fuck off, get over your indignant crap, and see if it's still real. If you are capable of being honest with yourself, chances are pretty damn good that you are not mad about anything that has anything to do with anyone but yourself. If you bought your kid "Kill the porno sluts VI" for his or her birthday and now you're pissed that it turned out to be a morally bankrupt game, fuck off, and get over yourself. I promise you that nobody but you is to blame, and this is not the villiage's problem.
Have a nice day.
Politically, this stance on video games is pretty safe, and you'll note that all she's doing here is saying we should study how bad the problem really is.
She could be doing this knowing full and well that any honest study may come back with the result of "these are no worse than movies and books", with the final result being ( in the worst case ) congress passing laws requiring age restrictions on games. Honestly, I think that's going to far, and they're actually likely to get struck down in court ( IF we can keep GW from packing in another serious social conservative, which isn't looking good ), but in the long run, it might be good for the industry and result in even *more* explicit games. When you have to get a game from behind the counter or from a local non-blockbuster video store or an online source because *mart is too weak to carry it, the gloves are off, you can make that game as nasty as you want.
In the long run, a video game is no different than a movie in a lot of ways, so if there's some lame decency rating system that prevents a minor from buying a really gory, racist, sexist movie, then that same system should be placed on games, in all seriousness and fairness. But it should actually ( I think ) be the same system- it's not right to use stricter standards for games than other video content.
Untimately, though, we have a generally bad situation in America, where people are abdicating their parental responsibilities to the state, and it's not OK. If your kid is playing a graphic game, and you don't want them to, you should be able to prevent them without affecting the rest of society. It's no different than letting them buy a really gory or violent DVD. Don't let them do it, and take it and punish them if they get one. You're the parent, act like it. If you want the state to police your morals, move to Iran, they'll help you out.
I am outraged!
Senator Clinton just lost my support and vote for President. She's an idiot.
...except for all the others. (Winston Churchill, I'm probably misquoting slightly.)
... wait that was Tipper Gore) while standing firm on policies that do matter (such as helping the disadvantaged) to avoid the former being used as "wedge" issues by their political rivals.
Hillary Clinton is a savvy politician. She (and Bill) were successful by embracing right-wing policies that don't really matter (such as the death penalty or the alleged shocking immorality of video games or naughty lyrics in rap music
Hillary's message isn't pitched at us, it's pitched at "white guys who drive pickup trucks and have confederate flag bumper stickers" (to paraphrase Howard Dean). For Democrats to get anywhere today they need to get votes from the people they want to help (poor Southerners) as well as the people who approve of their social program ("do anything you like as long as you aren't hurting someone else"). The support of the latter is a given, so they pitch to the former.
Frankly, too many parents are totally IGNORANT of what their kids are watching, playing and listening to. So parents should be more informed, who disagrees with this?
This is not the government's duty. They aren't here to parent the parents. If the parents are too busy to deal with their kids, or too ignorant to deal with their kids, guess who's fault it is? And now guess who needs to change? The answer to neither of those is the US Government.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Son, i didn't have sex with that GTA's prostitute!
Does Senator Clinton advocate banning GTA? Did I miss something in the article?
Put your jump to conclusions mat away, dumbass.
Well it's my fucking life that's at risk when I walk down the streets in my neighborhood because the local parents failed to educate their children that the way to make money isn't relieving their neighbors of it at gunpoint. As long as the parents are failing to do this you can scream all you like that "it's up to the parents". I'm just going to ignore your complete and utter disconnection from reality.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
This seems to be part of Senator Clinton's move toward the middle to try to setup a 2008 presidential election run. Recently, Senator Clinton came down closer to the traditional conservative position on abortion while at the same time trying not to alienate the pro-choice lobby. Now she's trying to come down on violent movies, games, etc. in an attempt to court the family values voters.
Most political commentators attribute President Bush's 2004 victory to American voters looking for a "family values" candidate. Given the tightness of the last two elections, in addition to Senator Clinton being portrayed as a extreme left-winger, she sees the need to try to court some of the family values votes. IMHO, expect Senator Clinton to come down on the conservative side of more social issues while pushing health care reform and government entitlement initiatives in an attempt to solidify her position as the 2008 Democratic nominee.
Talk about "loose morals and corrupting influences" and how BJs isn't sex.
Ever since that happened, Teens say a BJ isn't sex.
And love that humidor for those cigars!
Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
You fat, ignorant, lesbian whore.
If I want to play games that have me pimp slapping a ho while I take the money out of her hand, I will.
Its called freedom of speech..mmkay..
She should know what she's talking about. I'd say she's one of the nations leading experts on "loose morals and corrupting influences".
Did she really use the word "Diss"? Maybe games DO affect people!
A Clockwork Orange.
It's irony, but anybody who spends any time reading Slashdot knows that written sarcasm isn't always obvious to less-than-careful readers.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Not.. A... Kids... Game.
The thing had an "MA" rating for crissakes.
In True Combat Elite, I prefer to play as 'terrorist' weilding something like a MAC10 or AK-47. I wonder if they'd have me locked up for that in the US :-)
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Read Hebrews chapter 7 sometime. Really.
Not even Jesus was under Levitical law (being from the tribe of Judah). Sheesh.
Of course she's right, just look at all the anvil dropping maniacs that roam our streets today!
Ban the bible, lest the citizens learn to stone rapists, murders, and maybe even the politicians to death.
Yes, let's starting throwing stones at people protected by the guys with automatic firearms.
Although, I hear the last two presidents have been stoned already.
The Chronic *WHAT* les of Narnia!
Those Republicans should stop trying to stifle free speech. They should stop trying to censor people. ...
They should just
Uhhh, Hillary is a Dem.
Who's up for a Mt. Dew slushie and Jerky run?
Prof. Farnsworth - "Oh a lesson in not changing history from Mr I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!"
She sounds more like a Republican every day. I wouldn't be surprised if the jumps ship and leaves you nuts with Kerry, Dean, and the like at the helm.
I'm conflicted on this, and I've been conflicted long before Sen. Clinton made her remarks. On the one hand, I strongly oppose censorship, and I feel it is the obligation of the parents to, well, parent their children. Do violent video games encourage violent behavior? Maybe not, but do we want children to become desensitized to violence anyway?
:) I don't think Sen. Clinton has the answers, (and I know Sen. Lieberman doesn't) but I think it deserves some thought.
I guess the question is, since the link between violent behavior and either desensitization or video game playing is either nonexistent or unclear, is there a secondary effect we should be concerned about? Does dismissing video game violence lead to dismissing real life violence?
If we in fact do want to prevent desensitization for the "good of society" then how would this occur, if parents are reluctant to assist in that regard?
I am concerned, specifically by the responses I've read to this article so far, that this has become a knee-jerk issue (moreso than most, even, on Slashdot.
What can we possibly do to turn back the tide against the vicious spread of misinformation mongering? Surely, there must be something, a website, a petition, a campaign. I'm tired of just sitting on my hands and shrugging my shoulders. I'm not calling for a holy war here, but surely there must be some way to stop this kind of absolute crap.
Will parents ever learn to take responsibility for raising there own kids instead of trying to create the perfect enviroment for them to raise themselves?
Anyone who wants to censor violence from entertainment media because they can't take the time to teach their children right from wrong is bullshit.
Games arn't games anymore, they are still fun, but the time of innocence is long past.
When I play a violent war game, when I blow someone up or stab them.
I know one thing for sure, wars should be avoided at all costs.
This, is what video games teach us, the real horror of being there. That's something the watered down text books of our under funded public schools can't teach us.
Hillary Clinton won't become president, that much is for sure, she just alienated most of the 49 percent of democrats that would have voted for her.
The video game industry is just the new scapegoat. Back in the 80s if it wasn't Dungeons & Dragons it was Judas Priest, or Ozzy, or AC/DC, or whoever the hell else got singled out that week. I'm guessing there were studies done back then trying to link music or role playing games to violence -- any idea where those results could be found?
You mean waiting for THIS?
Note: This sig contains nine S's, nine I's and five O's which... means absolutely nothing.
Thankfully I saw this earlier today from a less biased source, here. /.'s misreporting of it.
It really goes far beyond the usual "omgwtf gta is teh violent!!111 rockstar is murderers!!1111 hysteria!!311 lawsuites!!1 hysteria!!!1" drivel -- it addresses the whole phenomenon of ever escalating violence and other 'indecency' in all forms of media (GTA itself was only mentioned in passing), parents' lack of time/resources to properly deal with it, and actually addresses the underlying societal concerns regarding the whole issue.
I don't know about you, but the vibe I got from it was "parents have the responsibility of caring for and raising their children, and deserve to have access to the tools they need to do so", which I can't help but agree with, not the usual "won't somebody please think of the children! censor it! censor it!" bullshit.
I also can't help but not be very surprised at
Work is punishment for failing to procrastinate effectively.
Sorry, but it's the case. I would call myself a Libretarian as I generally tend to support liberal social policies but conservative economic ones. That fits with the general stated goal of thr Libertarians, the idea being that the government should be there to provide for the common good but stay the hell out of our lives as much as possible.
Great, but then they take that to the extreme. It is quite clear that we DO need governmental regulation of a lot of things, and that the government DOES have to be involved in our lives in many ways. We can't just have this total hands off system where things like child labour are legal. Yet, that seems to be what they want to defend.
It's made worse by their choice in politicans. Badnarik is a clown, and did nothing but pull stupid stunts in the last election. I mean he could have actually tried to make an impassioned plea to those disenfranchised with the major parites, and made a real legal attempt to get in on the debates, but instead he just used it to get himself arrested in a stupid publicity stunt (he admitted that's what it was).
I would support the Libertarians is they were a little more moderate. It's possible to want liberal social policies and conservative economic ones without going all the way out to bat-shit loco land. They'd also need to get serious and present a real candidate, one that acts presenential and tries to speak for the country.
As it stands, they are as bad as the big 2.
No more real criminals? Now we have to lock up the people pretending to be criminals?
No more squirt guns, pirate costumes, gangsta rap, or Hamburgler slides.
Any decent Physics course teaches the basics of building mass-destruction weapons. Ban those, too!!
--
Francisco
São Paulo / Brazil
Extreme Right and Extreme Left are functionally identical.
It's not too late to move back to the Center people. . .
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Perhaps, Senator Clinton, this is what comes of trying to get the "village" to raise a child.
Everyone should just ignore her. This is Hillary Clinton just trying to appear centrist in order to set herself up for a 2008 Presidential run. She's been saying a lot of things lately about "faith" and "morals" due to the "moral values" issue of the last election.
I don't even care if you're Democrat. Just pointing out what is obviously going on, and why she's suddenly speaking out on this. Decide what you want (personally, I'm not sure she'll ever successfully shake her image as an ultra-liberal from upper New York).
Hillary is starting on the groundwork for her 2008 campaign. The first step in running for president is to work a few years ahead establishing a "record" that the media will latch onto and later spew out to the sheeple who vote based on short term memory. In these harrowing times, it's the religious right/moral majority who have the the voting power so it is important to appeal to them and swing some of the fence sitters (those upset with the Bush cabal) over to her side.
Kerry's biggest mistake was not maintaining a high public profile in the years leading up to 2004. Bush didn't either but he had the assistance of daddy's insider machinery to win his office. Notice how McCain and Hillary are frequent guests on Sunday morning talk shows and other photo-ops. This is all part of the next campaign.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
If playing violent video games leads to violence in real life, it makes one wonder what games current politicians played when they were young?
Seriously, every 3 months for the past 6 years this comes up on slashdot, everyone has a 600 comment bitch, and accomplishes nothing. Next time you're going to post a story like this, post a worthwhile forum to rant on SO THE PERPETRATOR will actually hear what we have to say.
On a humourous note, I like the fact that there was a Rockstar now recruiting advert to the left of the article..
"You know you don't act like a scientist, you're more like a game show host." Dana Barret
That's just the problem. There are age restrictions on these games as far as who can and can't buy them. The PARENTS buy these games for the kids.
I mean - these people are sitting here complaining about the games but they aren't identifying the real problem - How are kids today getting these games? That's right. The parents.
Violence is our way of life. We can show people being blown up, shot at, car chases, the most violent of crimes, but show a single breast and the FCC will fine you.
In the US sex is unnatural and we wouldn't want our kids exposed to that. But letting the little shits run around the school yard with and AK-47 is OK. Yes, I know that actual school shooting are not OK. But sending the message that sex it bad and violence is acceptable is not a good thing to do.
We should reverse the trend, but then again parents should be RESPONSIBLE for their own kids.
Why are you all foaming at the mouth about this problem? Unjustified aggression in youth is a very serious issue. Whether they show this behaviour because they picked it up from TV, games, their friends, the news or even at home. In the big picture eduction is the only thing that will solve this. Just claiming that "parents should educate their kids" isn't actually solving anything, it just moves the education problem. Who is going to educate the parents about this then? The parents don't go to school anymore. Most parents don't play these games either. They watch TV, where there is no hope for education. They read the news, where there is even less hope for education...so that leaves the governament. No wait, this is america, the governament can do no good.
No, I don't believe that banning games is a solution. But a proper campaign educating parents about the existense of sensitive topics in the video games their kids play is going to cost money. Are you willing to help solve this problem? What kind of accident will it take for you to change your mind?
Just so people are informed, she did vote to go to war.
This is just her attempt to win some red state votes in time for '08. Safely disregard.
Hillary's just planning for her 2008 presidential bid. With moving to a state and running for Senator there (despite not being a native) and obviously using said state (New York) as a stepping stone, she's doing a hell of a job alienating geeks and of course gun owners as well. This is just talk. If she thought she'd benefit by endorsing the game she'd do that to.
If she's so worried about women's rights and dignity, what dignity does she have left after staying with her husband after the Lewisnky scandal.
This guy is way out there
This is a silent epidemic of media desensitisation that teaches kids it's OK to diss people because they are a woman, they're a different colour or they're from a different place."
She's so right! We should be able to find prostitutes of all genders, races, creeds, and from all localities!
"Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them..." Does she mean that her husband played with GTA when he was a kid? Bye, Luca
The Bible, Koran, Tora, etc, have inspired more death and distruction than any game, book, movie, ANYTHING.
And worse, they pervert children with that crap from day one, at least GTA is meant to be sold to adults.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
"President Rodham".
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
A zionist and a free trader. That is pretty rightwing.
Hilary is just another Politically correct, neoliberal, faux-progressive, rightwing Democrat. Bill Clinton was as rightwing as Nixon, probably more so. That rightwing bastard sold our jobs to the globalist corporations overseas.
This Rich Rightwing Bitch wife of his is as powerMAD and as powerHungry as Bill ever was. She is running for Prez in 2008.
Count on it!
Our job is to get a real Progressive nominated in 2008.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
These politicians never mention the fact that GTA is pretty much a sandbox. While there are missions to do non of them say "have sex with a hooker and shoot her" or "kill cops" (haven't played much of the new ones but the cops are shown to be crooked so killing them is justified) So basically what we get is when you let a kids do whatever the hell they want they are sleeping with hookers and killing them not taking the cop car and hunting down criminals (you have the option to do that)
Google it, stupid!
Oh, BTW, Have a look at DefeatClinton2008.com.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
I guess it's that "having sex with prostitutes" part that she's having problems with. Because she obviously has no problem approving murders in Iraq and elsewhere.
This really annoys me, for a few reasons. When people say how bad video games are they always pull the Maude Flanders "What about the Children!!!"
A Few Points.
1. The average age a video game player is 28.
2. The video games have a clear and easy rating system.
3. Video games are expensive. ~$50 bucks
4. The video game systems have parental controls
So here it is, first the majority of people playing theses games are over 18 and should be allowed to play them. Then with each game costing about 50 bucks most kids can't afford to buy them, the parents have to. All video games are rated now, so parents can easily see if the game is age appropriate. If not the parents don't have to spend the money on the game. After this the parent's can allows turn on the parental controls, to protect against kids sneaking a game in.
The problem is 100% the parents fault. Then need to monitor what their kids are doing. They need to read about the video game system them they are buying for their kids and how to protect the kids. I was in Best Buy the other day, and the Kid, must have been around 10, behind me brought up GTA: San Andreas and gave it to his dad to buy. His dad did not even look at it before he bought it.
I am really tired of people blaming others for their kids being messed up. Video games are the favorite target these days, but it was not to long ago it was violent movies, and before that is was heavy metal. The truth is if you are involved in you kids life and instill in them real values, when they do finally play the violent video games, it will not affect them; they will still be OK. Too many parents let T.V., video games, and other kids, raise their kids. This is the problem, not a violent video game. Really, people just need to park their SUV, get home from work on time, turn off the T.V, and spend a ½ hour having dinner with their family.
Where are all these dipshits running my country coming from?
Is there anyone left to vote for who won't completely screw up?
Playing GTA just now I killed a postitute that looked an awefull lot like Hillary Clinton. WTF o.O
...she should step outside sometime. The GTA series simply creates a fantasy world that mirrors our own. I suppose Hillary would also advocate that parents not allow their children outide, watch the evening news, etc.
I posted almost this exact story in a different story on /. earlier today but it fits here as well.
My 13y/o son has been playing every version of GTA on the PS2 since each release date including SA. I hear the gun shots, I hear the words, I know the themes. I've played it as well. I feel very confident that he knows where a game ends and where real life begins. I also hear him swearing during his clan wars on SOCOM. When he knows I am around, he does not swear. Maybe I am in for a big surprise in the next few years but I am very confident I know my son and we have an outstanding relationship. He repsects his own parents, other adults, and his peers as well. Even with all the violence and "bad words" in the games he plays, I know what he is like, what bothers him, and I can tell when something is going on outside the norm with him and we spend a lot of time together doing things we both enjoy. Shielding him from the "bad things" in life and not spending quality time with him and assuming he will be free from defect IMHO is much worse. Is us playing GTA or SOCOM together quality time? I think so, specially when I can ask him to help me wash the car or do something in the yard and he will put the joystick down and gladly join me.
My teen daughter on the other hand is a completely different story and she never plays violent games.
It's pretty nice in my party. We aren't beholden to anybody, and we only follow what we believe.
:)
It's called being an Independent.
I learned long ago that political parties are nothing more than organized religions. They're only right some of the time, and they all tell the truth, but only their agreeable versions of it.
Lean Democrat, if that so suits you. But do it because it's what you believe, not what the party believes. Clearly, you are already disillusioned with the Democrats. So don't be one, and wait along for someone to come along you agree with and vote for them based on the issues, not affiliation.
You'd be amazed how difficult this concept is for so many people. "Which party are you?" "None." *blank stare*
Why is it that the instant you sit a politician down with a copy of Grand Theft Auto, the first thing they do is seek out a prostitute, have sex with them, and then murder them for money?
I mean, I had my copy for months before I knew you could do that. (I like to avoid FAQ-style sites until I either really need them or I've finished the game.) Not these politicians, though; wham, within five minutes apparently they've nailed a whore and then run her down.
Missions? Cruising the town and admiring the graphics? Committing a crime and noticing that you actually get caught (unlike many games where it's just oblivious)? OK, I won't try to claim that GTA teaches you anything serious about consequences (though I'd point out the lack of Pay & Sprays in the Real World (TM)), but still, there's more to the game then blowing away women of the night after they service you.
I mean, come on, this is Grand Theft Auto, and that's all you can find to complain about? Yeesh, try a couple of missions or something. What about flying around the city without filing a flight plan and illegally littering on a grand scale by dumping out explicit pornographic fliers which flutter around for the remainder of the game? Just look at all those crimes!
When do I get my Deomocrat party back
Where'd all the real republicans go?
It won't change until you find a way to convince the general public to stop voting people they don't really want up through the primary elections just because they think they can win, and find a way to convince the general public to stop believing fabricated rhetoric from the "news" telling them what to think about a candidate's character.
It's a much bigger problem than just finding a new candidate. It's a systemic problem involving the distribution and control of information, and it has hit both parties.
People can scream all they want about this, but having bought all GTA games, San Andreas IS insanely violent and much more so over the previous versions and it is no wonder people are driving like insane aholes in their steroid vehicles in real life.
It's about harm. We recongise that you harm someone, their family, the community, etc by taking their life away. It's also something that can't be undone. Thus it's illegal to do, except under very specific circumstances.
The same is true of most more basic laws. They are about stopping something we recongise as harmful. Not harmful in the moral sense, but in the physical sense. Like theft, if someone deprives you of your property, you are harmed by that since you no longer have that property to use. If it is allowed to happen, society is harmed since people are less inclined to work to legally produce thigns, since they can just take them instead (and risk having them taken).
The difference here is, there's no harm that's ever been shown. I've never seen a study that shows that videogames cause violent behaviour. I've seen some that make a weak case for correlation, but not only are they not well conducted, it is an equally valid hypothesis that more violent people like the games, not that the games make them more violent.
That's why it's legslating morality. People feel that these games are "offensive" and so want to get rid of them. It's not because there is any actual harm caused, nor any proof, even weak, of an indirect causal link to harm being caused, it's just because they don't happen to like them.
Its not ok to kill simulated innocent people, just real one's once you join the army... then its ok, GTA is bad but what about Americas Army that game is just as bad as the rest..... sorry lady you don't get my vote since thats all your after anyway.
I believe that everything we experience affects but we are not lemmings. We do have free will and determine how it affects us. Two people could watch the same violence with one becoming a crazed serial killer and the other becoming a pacifistic monk. I still love the magazine ad they made for Carmageddon where you a car brutally mowing down a pedistrean and it said something to the effect that playing this game can reduce violence because it is a healthy outlet for rage and violence rather than committing the real acts.
"It is not my intent to offend, but if offense is taken, the fault lies with the audience." attributed to Patrick Henry
Has no one else seen the connection between the populairity of pacman and a sudden increase in childhood obecity.
Heh. Do you miss Republicans too?
That Hillary plans on becoming a Republican to ensure her win in 2008!
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
GTA should have about as much influence on kids as hardcore porn. That is, if parents are doing their job kids won't see it and thus won't be affected (or if they do somehow see it will be able to differentiate it from proper behavior)!
I find laziness to be an excellent motivator.
That little quote just proves that Hillary is a total retard. What a bunch of "look at me, I'm taking a stand" political mumbo jumbo. Since when is GTA about being mean to women, as she suggested? Unless I am mistaken, don't players of that _video game_ "kill" more male 3D models than female 3D models? I swear, every time Sen. Hillary opens her mouth to speak, she's asking us to eat a big crap sandwich and believe it's a yummy London Broil steak.
BDR Gear
Outdoor gear, MREs, and more!
Mod the parent of this one up! "Moron" is just SO insightful. It takes a huge amount of intelligence to call someone a moron.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
About the Doom game teaching kids to go on shooting rampages. Really now, just how much DOES media influence kids. Tell me, did anybody get the urge to blow up things watching Wille-Coyotoe and the road runner? How about Elmer-Fudd and his shot gun blowing Daffy Ducks head off (over and over again), did that make you want to go get a shot gun and shoot peoples heads off? The only diference between yesterday's cartoons and today's video games, is the resolution (very real looking gore), Oh, and sex.
Maybe there should be (and there already is to some point) a ratings system for games, and the really 'adult' games kept in the back room (like the X rated videos) so teens and pre-teens can't buy or rent them (unless their asshole parents do the wrong thing). However, other than giving parents the tools to take their responsibilty over what their children are exposed to (and maybe put some teeth in there for parents who DON'T) keep your legal hands off the gamers. If you want to treat them the same way you do P0rN providers, that's probably not going too far (given the pornographic nature of some of today's games!).
Sorry, as much as I hate the current administration, you can't pin this on the Republicans. Joe Lieberman, one of the first to suggest laws against videogames is a Democrat, as is Rod Blagojevich, as is Joe Baca from California who has proposed similar legislation in the US senate, and so is Leland Yee who got the well known "violence against police" anti-videogame law passed in the state of Washington.
Sorry, this is clearly on the Democrat's agenda which, unfortunatly, only goes to prove that NEITHER of the major American political parties reflects my (or I would imagine most slashdot reader's) beliefs.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Dear Hillary,
Your husband (former President Bill Clinton) had sex with a woman (outside of your marriage) and then lied under oath to the American people. Which do you think is more damaging to the moral fabric of society, fantasy or reality?
The problem is senator Clinton assumes that video games and children go hand in hand. This is certainly not the case. She doesn't understand that there are video games (like GTA) that are not designed for children. Adults and video games are not mutually exclusive.
The biggest issue is that most parents think the same way. Most don't bother to investigate what kind of games their chilren are playing. They assume that it's a video game so it must be designed for children.
If the government wants to fix this problem, they need to make stores enforce those ESRB ratings the same way stores and theatres honour the MPAA rating system.
Oh SNAP! The game industry just GOT SERVED. Now it's ON!
For someone who supports the War in Iraq and George W. Bush and everything he says and does, you sure smell like a Republican to me.
If they actually sat down and played the games they hate soo much, they might actually like them. They always seem to focus on the one or two buzz worthy aspects of the game and I am sure thats all they ever see or hear of the game.
Geez, do you think that someone is making an obvious attempt to get on the '08 presidential ticket?
http://www.tomandemily.com
When liberals and conservatives agree that tends to be an indicator of the gravity of the issue. The gravity here is deep concern over our children and social health. My opinion is that it's not funny anymore, and it never was.
yeah, such as you for letting a kid play GTA in the first place.
She needs to move on to a different village and stop trying to raise my child.
Is she really the best the left has to offer? Liberals need to start getting Barack Obama ready for the big leagues or just resign themselves to dying with Hillary.
Then Libertarians can come in and fix things.
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Please... if the problem lied only in the realization of what's real and what's not.
Systematic desensitization is a fact. What remains to figure out (objectively) is how these video games influence young people. They are somewhat similar to videos/movies/tv shows, and we know the copycat acts (or attempts) of Columbine high school shoot-out.
I agree with you that ultimately this should be parents' decision. Banning a specific game is... well, might as well start with all the XXX shops so prevalent in cities. Perhaps this is Hillary's move to appeal to emotional senses of the parents and establish herself as morally upright.
That's funny, I thought it was OK to do diss and kill/beat up/rob/etc people in the game because they are virtual humans, not becaue they are virtual black people or women or immigrants. Oh yeah and they are virtual, I sure as hell wouldn't do those things in real life.
And children aren't meant to play that game, silly Senator.
***
No, kids are taught that it's OK to kill hookers, and it's better if they have sex with them first so they don't go raping later.
I'm not good in groups. It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent. - Q
the parents for not supervising their kids, the people selling these games to underage consumers, the media which promotes and pushes these games to children, and the console creators for allowing these companies to continue to build these games for their systems. And not to mention the hypocritical politicians who are willing to send children to their real deaths during "war", engage in elicit affairs, and accept money from tobacco, alcohol and gun constituents. I wonder if Hillary would be opening her mouth about this if she was getting a large donation from one of these companies?
I assume you're new her because long ago a wonderful colloquialism was developed to illustrate the acceptable limits of freedom.
"The right to swing my fist ends where the other
man's nose begins." Oliver Wendell Holmes
If you'd like to live securly under the gental protection of a totalitarian regime, there is certainly a selection to pick from. But don't be too quick to bring those ambitions to this area of the world. It's one of the few things we reliably kill people for.
Anyone else suddenly have the urge to have sex with Hillary Clinton in an alley, then kill her with a baseball bat and take her money?
You're letting your desire not to be harmed interfere with my natural ability to bash your skull in. If the law agrees with you, that's a moral decision.
Don't allow yourself to be so brainwashed that you think there is anything unnatural about morals or that there is anything particularly inherint about any "rights".
Clinically speaking, the only right we've ever managed to conclusively demonstrate is that all living things eventually have the right to die. When we perfect anti-aging, perhaps that one will need a hard look as well. The rest are just moral values; more accurately the rest are social mores.
Never confuse volume with power.
So murder is only 'good clean fun' for children when its funded/promoted by the US government: http://www.americasarmy.com/
Weren't both Hillary and Bill in NBA Jam: Tournament Edition? The same NBA Jam that could be considered a physical and violent game with all the pushing, shoving, and full contact basketball. At some people she must have given her approval to be in that game.
"Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them," she said in a statement on the issue. "For that matter, we can't get Ted to stop playing, either."
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." - Alexander Hamilton
Maybe she is acting as a poison pill. She's easily the most hated active politician for the right wing so there could be backlash by association for the two Republicans she is joining with.
More likely its just another toothless Democrat political blunder.
The common thread I see on this site is that its not the game developers' responsibility to produce "morally ethical" games, but the parents' responsibility to censor what their kids see, play, and do, as they see fit. I agree completely, and do exactly that with my own kids. So, help me out. Since game developers have been nice enough to rate the games and help us parents decide which games our kids should play, I'd like to keep some of those games from being played at my house. How about a lock on the console, preventing use of games rated "M" without a password, similar to netnanny, or the feature in cable tv boxes? I'm sure most of slashdot can think of lots of ways to do this. How come this hasn't been done yet? To me, it seems like a no-brainer, and empowers parents to be effective censors of their kids, even when their not right over their shoulders.
GTA doesn't let you ahve sex with prostitutes and then murder them! It just lets you murder them!
People over 18 are considered adults for all practical purposes, and should not be told what games they can and cannot play. As a 21 year old, I LOVE the violence in these games as I realize that they are pure fantasy. If I am willing to spend money to purchase this game, Rockstar should be permitted to make it if there's a market.
If children area buying the game when they are underage, then THAT is the problem that needs to be addressed, not whether people should make games like this. Because there is a whole market who is able to handle this "realism" and as part of that market, I don't want to have something I find fun taken away because some moralistic bitch wants to impose her morals on my life.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
She is a political hack. The only reason she has a job is because her husband likes to bang other women (often with tobacco products).
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"This is a silent epidemic of media desensitisation that teaches kids it's OK to diss people because they are a woman, they're a different colour or they're from a different place."
Makes you wonder if playing the game makes it easier for the WHITEhouse to categorize all individuals from certain countrys and backgrounds as terrorists and take their rights and privileges away.
This is a silent epidemic of media desensitisation that teaches kids it's OK to diss people because they are a woman, they're a different colour or they're from a different place.
No, because you run a very high risk getting killed by the cops if you do this. Why does an action in a computer game, regardless of consequences, show it's "OK" to do something. With that opinion, Clinton should go ahead and ban all computer games with violence in them.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Everytime I picked up a ho I lost money, so I immediately had to kick da bitch out da car to avoid losing my wallet. I think this is a valuable moral lesson. Don't pick up hos, they steal your money which you could be using to buy things like guns and stuff.
That's odd. I don't remember any hooker-killing scenes in that book, which I reread just a couple years ago.
As I remember, the book is more an inditement of our increasingly violent society, and a cautionary tale about the dangers of attempting to fix the problem through a totalitarian government.
I think it's disingenuous to say that GTA is also a veiled criticism of our society. It's more like Miami Vice: all glorification and glamorization. At least on Miami Vice, the main character was a good guy (if a flawed one).
GTA isn't a great work of art. Don't pretend that it is.
m-
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
I now have an image of someone being bludgeoned to death by an anthropomorphic book.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
What if there was consequences for having sex with the prostitutes? Lets say that if you have sex with a prostitute in the game you have certain probability of contracting a sexually transmitted disease. This disease would slowly decrease your health throughout the game unless you purchased expensive medicine or robbed the free clinic every now and then. The probability of contracting a STD could be higher for bad parts of the city. You could even pass the disease on to other prostitutes. Also what if each prostitute had a pimp. If you kill the prostitute her pimp will get mad and come after you if he ever sees you in the game. Or the rest of the prostitutes who belong to that pimp won't service you. However, my guess is that even if there were real-world-like in-game consequences people would still complian.
The way to a man's heart is through the left ventricle
Who's the people BUYING that game and others like it (Oh, say, like Postal2, etc...) for the kids in the first place? Their Parents or the kids are allowed enough free reign by their parents on things to buy it for themselves.
Why not have the parents assume a little responsibility instead of worrying about that, eh? If it's a problem, shouldn't the Parents be the first ones to have a say in things? If they don't have a problem, it's very likely you shouldn't either.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Chelsea looks like the dog's breakfast. I mean, talk about ugly bitches. But then, her apple didn't fall far from her parent's tree.
Does GTA really promote the murder of prostitutes? If you did actually have sex with a prostitute then murder her within the game this would attract a police wanted level. So rather than promoting such an act it devalues it.
It doesn't even endore it, in fact, it is advertised as a work of fiction, entertainment, not the divine word by which to live your life, as the Bible is.
& location=http%3A%2F%2Fabcnews.go.com%2FUS%2FwireSt ory%3Fid%3D621347).
So while you contend that the OT doesn't apply to modern people (care to back that up? not saying it can't be, just want to see fi you can) some people may get the wrong idea, and that is what we are worried about with GTA right? That someone might read the sotry and believe they should actually do it.
I mean clearly there are many that think at least some parts of the OT are to be taken literally. Look at all those that cite it as reason why gay couples shouldn't be allowed to marry. Or how about the jurors receantly that cited the eye for an eye part when deciding to sentence a rapist to death (http://go.fark.com/cgi/fark/go.pl?IDLink=1421604
Point is that the Bible is full of authorization to do violence to others. Now perhaps the way you choose to interpret it says that doesn't apply now, that's fine, but it is still there. GTA doesn't command anyone to do anything, it's just a game, yet people seem to object to it based on its content. Why then, isn't there the same objection to the bible (rehtorical question)?
You're right. It's not "government's" problem.
It's our problem: that is, our society's problem. WE need to inform parents about what's out there, so that they can make informed decisions. It's called giving them the tools to make the right decision for them, whatever that decision is.
Pretending the problem isn't there doesn't make it go away.
m-
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
Maybe it wasnt intended, but the post says " We are letting our kids play a game that encourages to have sex with prostitutes then kill them.. this teaches them that they can DISS WOMAN or Men because they have a different skin color!"
WOW! thanks Mrs (or ms) Clinton! that means if it was a MALE WHITE prostitute it is ok! someone get Rockstar on the phone! I love feminists if they made a study fo the holocaust it would be something like "millions of jewish were killed by nazis.. and a lot of them were WOMEN!" yeah I mean some men were killed too. but...
And Mr. Jack Thompson! why dont you go to newgrounds and sue the guys who make violent flash games! oh I know why! they dont have millions of dollars to pay you! silly me, sorry continue reaching for the million dollar rainbow using your moralistic flag. just dont get too scared when you eventually ran out of a job. you can probably go back to chasing ambulances when that happens.
Go ahead MOD my day!
More opinions here
People kill people. The gun doesn't "encourage" anyone to go out and use it to kill, it simply provides the opportunity. GTA provides opportunities for many "immoral" acts, but it doesn't necessarily encourage all of them. It in NO way encourages the killing of prostitutes, but in a world where every NPC is able to be killed, it gives that opportunity. Play the game how you like.
In Sim City, I have the opportunity to burn down an entire neighborhood. In Rome: Total War, I have the opportunity to exterminate an entire city. But the game gives me the option to play how I wish to play, and taking away options is just increased control and regulation. I choose choice and common sense.
That all aside, I don't think any of us can say that killing people, prostitutes or otherwise, is alright. But if we pretend that murder doesn't exist, then who's going to teach morals? They don't appear out of nowhere. Sheltering children from the "horrors" of life is doing a disservice. Teaching them what is out there, and explaining what is right and wrong, is called parenting.
This topic has been beaten to death (zing!), but it saddens me to continually see politicians berating an honest industry for problems that their own governance has produced. Video games and television are a reflection and a product of our society, not the other way around.
Politicizing something they've only had their minions go out and research for their political gain. It's just another attempt to try and gain the "moral high ground".
Nevermind that parents aren't parenting. God forbid you stop working for a few years to take care of and raise your kid. God forbid you tell your kid "no, you can't have that"... you have to buy them whatever they want in order to make up for your lack of involvement in their life. Just give them over to the government from the age of 3 or 4. Let them be raised by their peers, the media, and government union workers. They'll be just fine as long as there aren't any bad video games out there.
Anyone for starting a new civilization on Mars? Anyone?
Just to play devil's advocate... what about their friends' parents? Or does your brother not let his daughter out of the house?
--- What?
The problem isn't as much about the games as it is about those people who are borderline homicidal in the first place.
Think about it, most people who attack or defend violence in entertainment don't seem to understand the real issue behind the violent behavior they are trying to stop.
The real problem isn't that children or teens may emulate what they see in games or movies, it's that a lot of people in the world today are closer to insanity than most of us want to think about. There are people of all age groups that become violent for whatever reason, and nothing we do will stop that. So the only thing that can be done is to keep those who are on the edge from going over the edge and doing something violent.
For those who arn't emotionally stable, games like GTA are a real problem because they give these mentally defective people ideas. For those who are sane, these games arn't going to be a problem, for those who arn't, they are a big problem for all of us, no matter how old or young.
Politicians arn't known for being terribly intelligent, so it's no surprise that they miss the real problem. We as members of society need to help keep people from going over the edge. People used to talk about postal workers going crazy and shooting people, but you have to wonder what would happen if there were a focus on keeping people from being upset.
When Clinton was in office, (as was Al Gore and their respective wives) the issue over video game violence presented itself into politics and Tipper Gore started the video game rating system we have today.
Similar to movies, an "Everyone," "Teen," or "Mature," rating was applied to video games. The movie industry has a similar rating with its G, PG, PG-13, R and X ratings. How come movies aren't being blamed for youth violence?
I didn't care for the rating system back when Clinton was in office, because I too (like many of you) can differentiate between reality and the virtual world I see in these games. Michael More's Bowling for Columbine asks the question: if video games cause so much violence, why is it not evident in other countries? Particularly the countries in Asia where the games are made? ABC/NBC news broadcast studies a few weeks ago in which psychologists analyzed the brain waves of youngsters.
Their discovery: while most of us have the ability to differentiate between right and wrong, all it takes is an already damaged mind to play these games and get further corrupted, and go out and kill someone.
Their solution: It's not the video games that is the problem -- it's the kids (or teens). And it's the parents for letting their kids' minds get damaged in the first place.
The parents should be slammed for letting the their children play the game, not the game itself.
Despite the negatives, Grand Theft Auto also teaches us that killing a prostitute in proximity of a police officer will have serious consequences. Unless you kill the police officer, too.
Why stop at stoning? The bible has a ton of great ideas ...
Dear George Bush
Bill Clinton's well documented liasons and Vince Fosters murder are right up there with GTA's protagonists actions. Hillary should clean up her own house before she tries to clean up ours. I still can't beleive the idiots in NY voted for her. I am originally from NY, but after they elected her I no longer consider myself a NY'r. With all the crap in her closet she should be a shoe in for president. Oh well back to the nameless carnage that is Doom3.
"...teaches kids it's OK to diss people because they are a woman, they're a different colour or they're from a different place."
Nah, GTA isn't racist. You can off people no matter *where* they're from.
Chris Matter
I'm from NY, I disklike the Senator immensely. I can't wait for her to run and lose the Presidential election so that she won't be our jr. senator any longer. With that said, I really must question what it is she expects video games to teach the children. Is killing prostitutes not a good thing? Don't we promote prostitution as being a bad thing for society, routinely forcing overnight stays in our jail system on our prostitues only to let them out the next morning? Killing them would clean up the streets once and for all! Why is our beloved Senator against cleaning up the streets?
Blame the parents. Seriously. Last Xmas I sold this game many times to parents who were buying it for their kids. Occasionally someone would ask "Is this ok for my child?" - my response, that it was in fact rated at 18 - didn't stop a single person buying it.
After a few weeks of this, I answered the question with a different answer:
"We'll it contains many many blatant drug references, uses sexist and racist language, contains sex and S+M, and is extrememly casual in its approach to violence and crime"
That just got me a customer complaint from a women who thought I was being uppity. She still bought the game though.
When are politicians going to learn that I won't vote for them when they come out against my favorite video game. Did I mention that GTA is one of the most popular franchises in history? I don't think I'm alone here.
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Oh, we all joined the Libertarian Party. Didn't you get the memo? Then we discovered the Libertarians are lunatics so most of us voted for Bush as the lesser-of-two-evils candidate.
Real Republicans will make a comeback as soon as the Republican party suffers a major political defeat, which could happen as soon as 2006 if Bush's SS privatization scheme fails in Congress.
OK, fine. People can be shitty parents if they want to. But don't sell the game directly to the kid, and make sure these parents know what they're buying, so they can't say "I had no idea!" later.
Besides, this is, what? A handful of games? The GTA series and a few other crappy ones?
Most controversial games suck, because they're expecting to be a success based on their controversy. (Manhunt, BMX XXX, I'm looking at you) GTA is an exception.
So make the stores enforce the damn ratings, and everyone's happy. Now we just have to get parents to give a damn about their kids, but that's a different problem.
m-
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
Isn't GTA rated Mature? This is basically the same as an R rated movie. i don't see what the big deal is. kids shouldn't be allowed to by Mature rated games just as they can't buy R rated movies, after that it's up to their parents and little else.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
For fucks sake _WHERE_ does it encourage you to have sex with prostitutes and then kill them? its a simulation of life, like life you can have sex with prostitutes and like life you can kill them. This is nothing more than an attempt at censorship.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
This violence against video game characters MUST STOP! What makes you think you can take a baseball bat to a low polygon rendering of a person and go at it until glowing globs of cash start floating around them? What is next? Violence against CARTOON CHARACTERS?
"...This is a silent epidemic of media desensitisation that teaches kids it's OK to" invade other countries without good cause, moral authority, or a good plan.
GTA is age rated.
Stores selling games to people below the age *or by law suspected to be being purchased for someone under that age - even by a parent* are breaking the law. Fact.
Target the retailers. They're the ones breaking the law repeatedly.
We can't just have this total hands off system where things like child labour are legal. Yet, that seems to be what they want to defend.
What they want to defend is The Constitution. In the case of Child Labor laws, if The Constitution did not enumerate a power to federal government to enforce child labor laws, amend it, or leave it to the state or local governments. Unlimited federal government is surely doing more harm than potential child labor ever did.
it's the basic problem of treating the symptoms, not the disease.
We are in the middle of a paradigm shift in the way we view the video game. While this likely not true for slashdot readers, the majority of parents are not entirely aware of how fast the video game industry has changed. Many people are still buying video games, or allowing them to be bought by their children with the vague recollection of Mario Bros. on the NES.
Before all the slashdotters start posting responses about mushrooms that allow you to shoot fire, lets realize that the degree realism of a game does make a difference. Video games are getting the to point where they can accurately represent pornography and violence to a point where it competes with other more established forms of media. Pornographic video games a approaching the realism of video pornography at a rate that many people are not aware of. The same goes for violence. While I agree it is the parents responsibility to control what their kids have, it becomes the gaming community's moral responsibility to adequately respresent the nature of the games.
While I realize there are still parents that buy their kids porn mags (work at a summer camp in Maine and you'd be surprised what parents will send their kids), the accepted social status quo is that until you are 18, you can't buy porn. We need a system and a state of mind that treats explicit video games the same way. Its just simply not a good idea to put Leisure Suit Larry on the shelf next to a Loony Toons game.
I understand that people want their virtual sex and violence and they want to be able to have sex with hookers and rob them in virtual reality because it is wrong to do that in life. At the same time however, we have a responsibility as members of a society to maintain a moral standard, and we have ability to limit access to certain materials to adults through the process of law. I applaud those who would fight for their right to express anything, but I have more respect for those who would stand up for what they believe is right.
Meanwhile Hillary is teaching everyone everywhere that it is ok for your partner to cheat on you, as long as they are rich and powerful.
She's saying this crap because her advisors are telling her to move closer to the center. She has three years to be seen as moderate before the 2008 elections. Saying this stuff about GTA is safe. The scary part is that people actually believe she's being truthful about her convictions. As President, her husband lied under oath and was impeached and she wrote it off to a "vast right-wing conspiracy."
The only thing I've seen come out of studies on gaming effects is an elevated level of dopamine production and *nobody* is sure if it's harmful or not. Inconclusive. But one thing's for sure. This woman wants to be President and she will say and do anything to get elected.
Any law restricting content is in violation of the First Amendment. The courts have ruled that certain types of speech (indecency and obscentiy) get less protection, but I don't think anyone is realistically claiming that GTA is obscene.
There's a reason why Congress hasn't mandated the movie rating system -- it too would be unconstitutional.
Like the MPAA's ratings, ESRB's ratings are entirely voluntary. Stores like Wal-Mart can choose to require ID for certain ratings, but Congress cannot force stores to ID.
And this is any different than Hollywood how?
Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. --Ford Prefect
"Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them."
I for one could never get that trick to work on the XBOX version of GTA Vice City. I've tried everything money, flashy cars, early in the morning. Nothing seems to work!
Although, I hear the last two presidents have been stoned already.
No, one of them did'nt inhale.
American populace slams "extra-marital fellatio"
C17H21NO4
GTA isn't a great work of art. Don't pretend that it is.
I didn't say it was. You asked for a great literary work which depicted hooker killing, and I provided an important novel in which the central character was a "lady killer" in both senses of the phrase.
No, he is not depicted to specifically kill a prostitute in the book, but that's splitting hairs.
I think it's disingenuous to say that GTA is also a veiled criticism of our society.
Not that I did, but now that you mention it, it appears that you never tuned in to the "talk radio" station in Vice City. Not the greatest work of satire in history, but clearly biting criticism of our society.
I have not played GTA:SA yet (I'm an X-Box owner), but the story in III and VC is clearly inspired by dark mafia films.
One fun (and very challenging) way to play the game is to try to complete all the missions without killing any cops or innocent bystanders. If you want to impose even tougher morals on yourself while playing, only steal cars from gangsters.
Not that there's anything wrong with it if somebody wants to drive a Mafia Sentinal on the sidewalk to mow people down at high speed, then wait for the ambulance and steal that for another joyride. Remember: Those aren't real people on the screen, just little digital cartoon characters.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
I don't know why anyone would think this is a right wing thing. The opposition to violent television, music, and video games has always been bipartisan. As an example, note that Hillary Clinton has always been opposed to this sort of thing. It's not really an unfair argument. Many of these games feature content that parents would be appalled by. GTA is probably one of the better examples, it is definitely not a game for children, and parents need a way to limit their children's exposure to this kind of material.
And as we can see, all the Slashdot posters who were exposed to violent video games in their childhood did not react in a calm and thoughtful manner, but in a violent outburst exhibiting traits of aggression. Contrary to those who were properly socialized as a child.
Reminds me of this quote:
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if PacMan affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."
--Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.
OK, fine. People can be shitty parents if they want to. But don't sell the game directly to the kid, and make sure these parents know what they're buying, so they can't say "I had no idea!" later.
I have a feeling (as in, not a fact, just my opinion) that this may be just like cigarettes. "You can call them 'Tumors' and people would be lined up to buy them" (--Denis Leary). Parents would still buy the games and simply say "well, its just a game, I don't see any harm in it..."
The parents that buy these games for the kids usually are too ignorant to really know what is going on in the game...
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Pretending that there is not an existing solution does not make that solution not exist.
Movies have a rating system to inform people about the contents of what they or their children are watching.
Games have a rating system to inform people about the contents of what they or their children are watching.
There is very little in the news about movies leading people to murder.
can't wait until we can vote this stupid cunt out of NY and be done with her.
The first sign is when the following line appears in a publication:
"[Clinton] aligns with hardline right-wingers"
You didn't know she was a member of the young republicans while in college? She changed when she married Bill. Most likly for political reasons rather than changes in views.
[Hillary Clinton] wants a $90 million investigation to be launched
Who are they paying with this money? Do you really need $90million worth of research on this topic? Classrooms are overcrowded, people are going hungry, teachers are underpaid... the deficit is going up...
Isn't there something more important to go after than this? This is EXACTLY what Bush did during the election by making gay marriage the issue of the election instead of the economy...
All she's doing is grandstanding to get elected by the rightwing while calling herself a leftwing democrat.
Remember they once tried to ban violence in comic books once. This is the same thing decades later.
It is duly noted that Jesus is therefore the only one that qualifies... but I believe that he has since declined the offer. :-)
-Rob
Marriage doesn't have to suck!
Just what we need, big brother trying to be our parents. Whatever happened to parenting skills? Your son wants the game so you tell him heck no, you ain't getting it. Simple, easy, done. Why do we need government telling us what is good and bad for our children?
This is a test. This is a test of the emergency sig system. This has been only a test.
Google them. Children who watch violent video are MUCH more likely to play violently and act violently. They use violence to solve problems and are less likely to try to find a compromise solution that all involved will find acceptable. We all need to stop knee-jerking and realize that violence DOES breed violence. You may like it, but does it belong in front of a child? Maturity and wisdom allow us to see the reality that is there. Violence promotes violence.
Could you provide some evidence/proof of your claime?
Here is mine:
Leviticus 24:1-23
A man curses and blasphemes while disputing with another man. Moses asks God what to do about it. God says that the whole community must stone him to death. "And the children of Israel did as the Lord and Moses commanded." 24:10-23
"Researchers from the University of Oklahoma recently found that two-thirds of school fights were instigated by regular video game players, but in the study of 607 students only four fights were started by children who had never played such games."
The article doesn't say how many of the total number of kids played video games. If 95 % did, then their two-thirds statistic isn't very meaningful.
Also, what if violent video games served as an outlet for aggression, actually helping to prevent violence?
Finally, a correlation doesn't imply causality. Do video games turn people violent, or are violent people attracted to video games? Nick Yee wrote a great article on this. He gave the following example: Suppose you stood by the exit gate of Disneyworld and noticed that many of the people coming out were six years old. Would it be more reasonable to assume that Disneyland transforms people into six-year-olds, or that six-year-olds like going to Disneyland?
Dear Senator Clinton,
0
Quotes you as saying:
"Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them..."
I am a registered voter in New York.
The reason why I am writing is regarding your recent comments regarding the video game industry -- specifically the Rockstar Games title "Grand Theft Auto".
The article http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=766
I'm intrigued that you would join the bandwagon on this issue as it is uncharacteristic with regard to your record.
I'm curious as to whether or not you've actually played the game that you are so sharply criticizing.
If you had spent any time playing the game, you would understand that nobody is encouraged to have sex with, or kill prostitutes. The fact is that Rockstar Games has created a dark and immersive world that is not intended for children. The box is clearly labeled that way. In this immersive world, you can, in fact, solicit the services of prostitutes. Furthermore, you can murder them, and you can take their money (as you can with any other character in the game). However, the behavior which you keenly point out is only incidental. It is not the purpose of the game by any stretch of the imagination. It is simply a byproduct of creating an immersive criminal fantasy-world.
Would you prefer that adult games set in dark and immersive environments not allow for choices that would be illegal and unethical in the real world? If this were the case, how could such games still be set in dark or immersive environments? If it is OK to censor the game, what differentiates video games from movies, books, or other forms of entertainment.
I suppose that the answers to these questions are pretty obvious (you've likely never played the game which you've loudly criticized, and you likely don't care what the objective of the game is.)
The road that you're taking us down is the beginning of a slippery slope which leads to censorship. I'm afraid that with this, my support for you is quickly waning. Your words have been a rallying cry of social conservatives for the past few years. Their goal is to censor this, as well as other video games.
Outside of my feelings on your political rhetoric, I am concerned about the $90 million that you propose spending on research to investigate games on electronic media and children. While I fully support gathering data for scientific purposes, I'm not convinced that it's an appropriate use of government dollars. You have already showed personal bias, and I am extremely concerned that this study is anything beyond political. If it is politically motivated, it will likely be a biased study before it even starts. We already have quite a few biased studies on this topic (from all sides of the discussion). How would this help anyone any further?
If you are interested in my support (and support from like-minded people), I respectfully request that you stay out of my personal affairs, including the form of entertainment that I choose.
With regards,
(name withheld for AC purposes)
I thought Hillary wanted to join the GNAA.
Political reaction to that may be substantial.
Somebody should tell them that you can also kill white males on the game.
Out of the millions and millions of people who played Pac-Man, there may be a minute number of kids who where influenced. The majority, however, did not pursue all night pill popping raves.
But if GTA is pulled from the shelves, that pill popping raver Pac-Man has got to go too. Hell, while we're at it, why not take Command & Conquer as well. We don't want our kids to take control of the country by using battle techniques gathered from that game. And don't get me started on Flight Simulator training terrorists on how to fly commercial airplanes.
Yeah, I agree, but that's for behavior which people believe (mistakenly, perhaps) affects only them.
Think of it this way, how many parents will buy cigs and booze for their kids?
You're right, some idiots will ignore ANYTHING, but it isn't an excuse not to try.
m-
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
Just recently I was over a friends house, and another guest had her 4 year old son with her (my son is 3). He had brought GTA:SA with him to play, It was his favourite game, and kept going on about it (for one reason or another the PS2 wasnt working or couldnt be setup). I was absolutely floored by this. My wife being a daycare worker was not very surprised.
:)
BUT- I still think that it is that degenerate parents right to allow her child to consume material which I deem inapropriate. So I just fired off a letter to Senator Clinton saying in no uncertain terms that I will cease to be a strong supporter and caste my vote elsewhere next time if this keeps up, and dont worry I grammer/spell checked that email
I am sick of seeing the last few polititions that I agreed with for the most part sell out to the superstitous rightwingers that are destroying this country.
There are a lot of jerks in any given community who will happily sell violent soft-core pornography to children at $60 retail
Soft-core pornography? Sexuality in GTA is less explicit that an episode of 'Friends'. I could see if you refered to GTA as having 'mature content', but soft-core pr0n? please.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
The one and only first lady to be humiliated the way she was, for and issue laking of more morals than the ones she tries to expose. Wasn't upon a time when family was supposed to be sacred?.
Seriously, I thought she was smarter than Bill, but after this alll I have to say she just want some news time for nothing. Seeems republicans will win by landslide after GWB.
First children playing a M game is WRONG that is what the M on the box is for.
According her line of thought, children are also buying porn and seeing how a lady does big bucks without going through any of the college crap or the the corporate BS and that is wrong too.
Maybe we'll have to wait for the chinese to make video games like GTA at a fraction of the cost so any of the walmart lobbyists will praise that and then nobody will bitch about it because at the end is all about the benjamins.
Weak.
I thought they were being discriminated against because they were, well, fake.
Is killing fake people new? Or is this just another of Hillary's attempts to con people into believing she's become more centrist?
Back in the '60's, most TV shows were about private eyes, spies, Westerns and the like.
The assholes started complaining about the violence - just like now. The government started making noises about regulation, so the TV industry started making tons of violent cop shows where the cops regularly violate people's civil rights.
The state of course loves to demonstrate their power over the citizenry.
So - end of complaints about violence - until now, of course, when the real complaint is the idea that a teenager might want to screw a hooker.
Certainly he wouldn't want to screw Hillary...
Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.
Go ahead and regulate the games. That will start a huge underground game market for even more extreme games, just like in Japan where "otaku" distribute violent porn games.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
The edutainment industry spends lots of money making video and sims that teach kids things - the premise being kids develop useful content, behaviour and attitudes from looking at / using these things without traditional instruction modes.
The gaming industry spends lots of money making video / sim packages called games, and then the premise is that nobody develops useful content behavior or attitudes from these things.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
Mod me "troll" if you must, but I'm sick and tired of people rallying blindly behind the First Amend. and defending crap media at all costs.
Just because people have the right to do something doesn't mean it should be done. There's a difference between what's legal and what's responsible. I'll defend people's free speech as much as the next guy, but, come on folks. Regardless of your politics, some of the crap in these games is really beyond the pale. No way in hell I'd want my kids playing GTA
Yeah, yeah, "free speech" and "it's just a game" and all that horseshit aside, the content of these games is a horrible commentary on society. So murdering prostitutes sells? What does that say about our collective values?
The problem here, IMO, (I've been informed that I no longer have the right to refer to my opinions as humble) is that the media (games, TV, movies etc.) is giving us what we want and what we want is appalling crap. It comes down to personal responsibility, folks. This reminds me of the early 90's move towards V-chips in TV's. Handy if you abdicate your parenting responsibility and use the TV as a babysitter, I guess. If more people just monitored (cared?) what their kids play/watch and voted with their dollars by not buying, media would get the message and we would be on our way to a solution.Sen. Clinton etal. may not have the solutions, (and I most certainly don't) but people denying that these games are problematic are at the root of the problem.
Denial ain't just a river.
Insert witty comment *here*. I'm fresh out of wit...
OK, so lets actually enforce the ratings system we have. What's the down-side?
Here's an interesting question: is an interactive medium held to the same standards as a non-interactive one? Should it be? Are the effects identical? Is an interactive medium more compelling than a static medium, or less? Why?
m-
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
is Grand Theft Auto.
Do you honestly think these kids couldn't get their inattentive parents to buy them sex/drugs/rock and roll if they wanted to?
We should be happy such children are tied to an electrical outlet somewhere instead of out on the streets!
It's the parents job to censor what their children experience, the game is rated for 18yrs and up to boot!
cyn, free software and *nix operating systems enthusiast.
Set C: Only Super Mario Bros. on the NES
Results: Set C children are prone to jumping on the heads of mushroom-shaped people. ;)
But seriously, who HASN'T thrown the stupid controller across the fucking room when playing a game?!?! I don't think it has as much to do with violence in video games as it does with a person's degree of patience.
And did my parents' generation turn violent by playing cowboys and indians? Of course not.
"Yeah, well, Dracula called and he's coming over tonight for you and I said okay."
Or should I say....
Games to not kill people; people do!
What are the stats that support her statement? Have violent crimes against women and other races gone up or down since the first video game was released? Or maybe the increased consumption of bottle water has increased rate of violent crime.
People will act and do the things because they are a bit nuts... it could be anything that sets them off. When my dog talks to me I listen but I do not go off and kill my neighbors like he
My Sig indicates the end of the comment I posted.
If you think you have to research whether children exposed to sexualy explicit and violent video games are affected by them, then it's you who needs to have their head examined! They affect me, and I'm 35!
Senator Ted Kennedy has killed more women than me and my video games.
The games
The kids
Or the kids parents, that allowed them to play violent games?
It's me or is just plain easier to blame the games, reliefing the parents from their responsabilities?
Governament has the right, and the duty to force game classification. So parents can decide if their kids can, or cannot play such games. But govenament CAN'T decide what is better for our children, this is pure censorship.
These politician are taking an witch-hunt position because it's an easy way out. If they tell that parents should be responsible for what their children are doing they'll loose popularity, and votes.
And this behavior isn't limmited to the USA, here at Brasil it happens too. Some time ago a girl was murdered on a cemetery, she was playing "Vampire the Masquerade" RPG... instantly the blame fell on the RPG books, they called them "satanic", and "wichcraft" books... Just plain stupid.
---- You know how some doctors have the Messiah complex - they need to save the world? You've got the "Rubik's" complex
I don't think it really matters from which walk of life you come, there is certainly a moral and ethical decline going on in the U.S.A. Deciding what, where, how, why and how much will lead to decades of controversy never allowing us to even address a solution to the problem while we're still defining it.
I'm not going to say I'm for or against games like GTA or the like. One could say there are similar moral issues where it comes to card games -- that's gambling! Sports games too -- people gamble on sports as much or more than in games of chance. Let's just stop playing games entirely. No, that can't be the answer either.
Good parenting is the correct answer but it's next to impossible for more reasons than I can conjure. (some good ones might be the rising cost of living forcing parents to spend less time at home... the court system awarding single women with "careers" as welfare and child-support collectors... all but encouraging single-parenthood!)
As if the reasons for neglecting our children weren't enough, even in more ideal circumstances where parents can actually afford to spend time with their children, they don't often preferring to work or spend time with their own recreational activities. Kids don't have anything else to do and these games look like fun.
But there's more to the general moral and ethical decline than just how we raise kids... look at common business practices today. How we (ab)use the legal system to intimidate and bully other people. How people commonly attempt to cash in on all sorts of "legal abuse." This is a strong component in how children percieve life as an adult. "It's only illegal if you get caught and it's 'right' if it's not illegal."
And finally, I'll exhaust my rant by reminding anyone of who is at fault when you are faced with a snotty little kid telling you with contempt that "you can't do anything because s/he's a minor" and knowing that they are right. I recall such an instance where I did, instead, what was done "in my day" where I grew up -- they would approach my parents to tell them what is going on. Back "in my day" I'd get punished and the person issuing report would be thanked. These days, a person issuing report would be insulted, sued, laughed at or all of the above. "Kids will be kids" is not a good answer but people are content with it... until their kid is involved in the next "Columbine" incident that is...
I wish people would stop having kids just because they think babies are cute...
The bible commands people to do those things much more directly than GTA does.
"Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them..." It doesn't 'encourage' it... although it is fun :)
The great Roman poet Catullus advocates prostitution, often accompanied by graphic descriptions of sex; Horace suggests that you sleep around with as many woman as you can, addressing practically each poem he writes to some other girlfriend of his. The Bible's "Song of Solomon" explicitely describes sexuality, comparing a woman's breasts to pomogranates.
And practically all the ancient epics glorify war and killing- The Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid, Beowulf.Now, no one would suggest these respected stories are harmful to children, would they? Hell, these are the things they wished the children would read instead of playing GTA.
Anyway, woulnd't any legislation limiting the content of video games violate the first amendment?
Things are getting a lot better as a result of those decisions. Amazing how treating foreign nations like children actually works.
The US is acting like a parent to the world, not because she desires domination, but because no one else will act like a grown up. Ignoring the unruly children doesn't turn them into good children. The US has made mistakes, but so has every other parent on this planet.
Exactly!
Go forth, my son, and take up the White Man's Burden!
Funny how the important things never change, eh?
Oh, BTW, *sarcasm*
did hillary really just say "diss?"
First off... Its histerical to see Hillary use the word "Diss" when refering to a form of entertainment that is under the same attacks that rap was 15 years ago. (By Tipper Gore of course)
No Hillary. Bad Hillary. Move out of my Liberal State of NY. We do not want you anymore. You do not get the idea of a free nation. You're bent mind is out to erase our liberties for the sake of our children.
Please leave humanity Hillary. I speak as an adult who grew up as a child that ran around with toy guns pretending to be a soldier with my friends in our backyards. My father grew up with toy guns running around pretending to be a cowboy when he was younger in his friends backyards...
When you run around with toy guns at the age of 5-13. You pretend to kill things, and you pretend to die.
It's apart of life. Its called EXPERIENCE.
In GTA there are consequences. You shoot, kill and the cops chase you. You're playing as a criminal. Just as my friends played the enemy in our little backyard soldier games as a young boy. And yes, just as my father's friends played the evil North American Indians in his friends fantasy cowboys and indians adventures.
Hillary is failing to realize her youth. She grew up sucking dick just like the rest of the women who now have children.
Its an important thing to realize. I grew up with porn and videogames, and i'm a pretty decent guy. I dont smoke, i dont drink, i dont kill, i dont squander away the entire savings of my corperations workers... i do not take 120 million dollar bonuses and flee the corperation when the go bankrupt (like some of your high society friends hillary)
Nope... Folks like me, are just your average decent American. The kind of people that hate when you pull shit like this. You know, the kind of shit that makes you look like you think you're better than all of us. The kind of thing that says "I'm Hillary, I dont shit or wipe my own ass"
You're out of touch with the world, Mrs Senator Busy Body. Please move out of our State and let a real Liberal or Libertarian take over. We dont need you sabotaging our freedoms (We have enough asshole conservative republicans doing that already. In the name of god none the less)
So sway as the tall grass does, because the tall grass goes where the wind tells it. The tall grass has no spine, no sense of direction, just a need to appease the wind.
You're no leader, but you certainly are a politician. I hope one day, you will remember that you too sucked dick once. I hope that you some day return to us and say "hey i wiped my own ass... and i even shit first!" So we can all look at you and say "finally you're one of us again". Because you have certainly left the relm of reality.
I'll end this the way i began. Hillary using the word diss. A word that was spawned from the ghetto, from the underworld where freedom is respected and excerised at the ultimate horror of our ruling class uptights.
Back when Tipper Gore formed the PMRC and went after the music industry for these same arguments... ICE-T wrote a little diddy called Freedom of Speech. I had the tape back then, and i live by its sentiment today. Here are the lyrics.
Freedom of Speech, that's some motherf**kin' bullshit
You say the wrong thing, they'll lock your ass up quick
The FCC says "Profanity - No Airplay"?
They can suck my dick while I take a shit all day
Think I give a f**k about some silly bitch named Gore?
Yo PMRC, here we go, raw
Yo Tip, what's the matter? You ain't gettin' no dick?
You're bitchin' about rock'n'roll, that's censorship, dumb bitch
The Constitution says we all got a right to speak
Say what we want Tip, your argument is weak
Censor records, TV, school books too
And who decides what's right to hear? You?
Hey PMRC, you stupid f**kin' assholes
The sticker on the record is what makes 'em sell gold
Can't you see, you alcoholic idiots
The more you try to suppress us, the larger we get
[Verse 2]
[You have t
You'll see these kinds of antics from liberal politicians all the time. They have a long history or trying to keep people from doing the things that they disagree with. There's a quote from P.J. O'Rourke that is spot-on for this story:
Books aren't life like. Books aren't interactive. You don't get to 'do' things with books. Ah fuck, why am I even posting this...
I doubt she said "colour"....
As an American, she'd have said "color" instead.
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
I apologize if I "misread between the lines".
However, I think what these discussions miss is the idea that the behavior has to be viewed in context.
In ACO, these were the actions of a narrator who's clearly depraved, loathsome, and yet pitiable at the same time. It's uncomfortable for the reader, because you both identify with the character, and are horrified by him. This is why it's great art. It teaches compassion without condoning the horror.
GTA takes away all that context. There are no repercussions for bad behavior, quite the opposite. I'm not saying that this is always a bad thing, but I certainly wouldn't give it to my 12-year old, whereas I wouldn't necessarily have that reservation about ACO.
You're right, I haven't listened to the radio in the game. Perhaps it's a deep, insightful social commentary that flew right past me.
m-
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
According to the article, Clinton notes that the game has content most parents would consider inappropriate for children, and calls for a study to determine whether this kind of content has an effect on children's development.
I consider the alternative, highly reactionary options of either
a) censoring everything in sight (supposedly a part of the left/right wing authoritarian agenda) or
b) insisting that parents only recourse if they don't trust the entertainment industries to support their values is to monitor everything their kids see and do (standard on slashdot)
pretty unhelpful to anyone actually trying to raise a kid.
Clinton isn't even at the point of helping parents be in charge of their kids' cultural heritage (which I think would be a fair role of an elected government), just asking to study whether these things might pose some kind of health risk. Until we get conclusive, scientific evidence that there's nothing to be concerned about, I think that's at least as sensible as monitoring what comes out of our taps or gets put in our food.
I dropped a note to Former President Hillary earlier.
In response to a particular quote from the Senator:
"Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them. This is a silent epidemic of media desensitisation that teaches kids it's OK to diss people because they are a woman, they're a different colour or they're from a different place."
Litigation of video game content isn't the solution. My response to this statement is to suggest an alternative way of saying the same thing, that sheds light on where the solution lies:
"Children are being permitted by their parents, to play a game.."
Columbine. Red Lakes. Any scene of child/teen violence. There's a common thread to all of them. Where were the parents at?
The past 20-30 years has given us two generations of children raised by the media. I'm one of them. Schools are the beating heart of a media consuming jungle inhabited by a savage culture straight out of 'Lord of the Flies'. In the absence of adult supervision, children will make their own way. There are leaders, there are followers, and there are outcasts.
In typical American fashion, you, and other lawmakers, not to mention parasitic attorneys, are looking at the *symptom*. Kids are being medicated to address the symptoms of a bigger problem. Media outlets are under threat of sanction (nevermind the 1st amendment implications), for propagating violent themes to an audience who isn't the intended recipient. Parents are crying out for a *systemic solution* to the problem they themselves are creating!
Violence, and it's effects on the human psyche, hasn't fundamentally changed in over 2,000 years. Back then, we had coliseums. Now we have television. This isn't a media problem. It's not a video game problem. It's a parenting problem. In the absence of 'dietary' control over the media children consume, they're going to go after the junk food.
If you want to propose a law that will actually fix this problem, make parents liable for the actions of their minor children. Only then will the disease receive the treatment it desperately needs.
- billn
Ahh, the sweet irony of a Clinton politician talking about ethics, morals, or decency. Keep the punchlines coming!
christ man, we just had this argument last week. you people lost the argument when suddenly your favourite debasement of Al Gore was put in its context.
oh no you mean he didn't actually say that? what will i do? quick, to the next bullshit bulletpoint that i was told to repeat but never bothered to understand!
I understand if some games arent for kids, but any game should be allowed for adults, why dont they just stick to the rating system JUST like the movie industry does??
Seriously now, "don't blame the game" and all this stuff aside, isnt GTA setting a a bad example for kids? Most of /. readers are tech-savvy adults so they may not see this but try to see it from a kid's prespective, the game IS advocating violence and intolerance.
I think you can come out of the closet, Hil. We all know you're a Republican in sheep clothing. Why do you think Bill had affairs both terms?
In America, you spam computers In Soviet Russia, computers spam you!
donating enough money to Senator Clinton's campaign fund. I mean is there any difference between what both the music and movie industries put out compared to GTA?
I can't find the EFF link that listed the insane amount of money the RIAA (I think that is who it was) donated to her.
So what does this mean gaming industry? You have to buy the gov to keep them off your back.
"I honestly think it was the only time in my adult life I ever yelled at my father. I yelled so much my voice turned hoarse over it."
And you claim that Matt is the one with the anger management problem?
Heh heh heh! It doesn't really matter because there is no political downside to jumping on the ban violent video games for kids bandwagon. The radlibs as you call them will still vote for HC for the same reason they begrudgingly voted for John Kerry, no other good choices. In the meantime, any laws that ban the sales of violent video games to kids will be found unconstitutional, so no losses there. Then the politicians get bonus points (like killin a hooker in GTA after sex) by complaining about the judiciary! Gravy for everyone! So slick Bill will be proud!
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
According to Video Buisness Magazine, (I'm roughly adding up the numbers that i remember reading over the years)
The entire GTA line of games has sold easily over 100million units. Thats a single copy per house and rental chain.
Well i dont know about you... But i would buy a gun because i dont think we can stop 100million+ murdering pyschopathic 15-40year olds. I dont even think Hillary could fire a gun... So she's useless..
QUICK.. Lets arm ourselves before all of those 100million+ Americans go insane and take over the country...
QUICK.. GET THE BIBLE!
"It also incourages young children to 'pop' their 'homies' and 'toke' 'rock'. Yo."
Joining the ranks of such luminaries as Jack Thompson and Governor Blagojevich, GamesIndustry.biz has the word that Senator Hillary Clinton has[...]
So you're saying that GamesIndustry.biz has joined the ranks of Jack Thompson and Governor Bladgkhsavvisghssskivich in condemning the games industry? That's very odd indeed.
Also, I like how she used the word "diss", to try to sound hip. I wish politicians would quit dissing video games.
You know, on any other day I wouldn't comment on this, but I'm bored so why not.
"GTA isn't a great work of art. Don't pretend that it is."
I'd argue that people have also applied that argument to other things that YOU probably would deem "art" like the statue of David, or perhaps The Birth of Venus.
Just because YOU don't consider GTA art doesn't mean it's not. Art, and art appreciation is subjective. So, basically, your argument is invalid.
You all are full of shit up in here.
This is a silent epidemic of media desensitisation that teaches kids it's OK to diss people because they are a woman, they're a different colour or they're from a different place."
Replace "woman" with "Iraqi" or "Muslim" and maybe you can see what I'm talking about. I find the propaganda machine to be much more offensive than any video game. However, we seem to be affected by both. How's THAT for flamebait??? Remember folks, Americans are voting for these people, so they seem to represent somebody, just not me, but they won the election. Wanna fix it? De-program your neighbors, and vote 'em out!
I hope this isn't interpreted as flaimbait, but it is a problem. The problem, however, is not videogames it's parenting and parental responsibility. <sweeping generalization>Parents seem afraid to say no to their children</sweeping generalization> today, and that's what's required. Is an eight year old playing violent and demeaning videogames a problem? Sure - but why are they being allowed to play them?
RandomAndInteresting.comdefending the world from stupidity since 1979
GTA San Andreas has mass appeal to teenagers because it targets them. Why do you think they focused on the gang themes? Because that's what's popular with the kids. The advertising campaign targeted everyone with a PS2. Do teenagers play PS2 games?
It's Greater Toronto Area.
If you don't want your kids playing GTA, don't buy it for them and don't let them buy it for themselves. No reason that adults should have to suffer because some kid "might see something naughty."
Article summary:
- If you agree with 1 or more republicans you are a right wing extremist
- If you agree with 1 or more democrats you are not described as a left wing liberal
That is the central problem with news reporting today.
Read the quote.
:), I think
Ity's the targeting people by color or gender that's a problem.
The stealing and killing is apparently OK
hawkj
hit her with a car and take her ill gotten cash.
I KID!, cmon, it's a joke
Or this. See, if it says a M, it means that it is intented to mature people. Anyone that goes out and kills people around just like in the game may not have maturity. Other cases of lack of maturity include but is not limited to sacrificing a kid like in the movie Warlock, jumping over a gap in a bridge with a bus and relating violent games to real life violence.
printf($randomline(sigs.txt) \n "-- "$randomline(authors.txt));
-- myself
or as I like to call, a conservative liberal.
go home Hilary!
the only permanence in existence, is the impermanence of existence.
Reading the comments, it appears as though ya'll don't have kids. Yes, I would not let my kid even watch me play GTA. Or LOTR. Or anything to that effect until much much later in life. However, most people are morons, and think that GTA is good fun driving entertainment for their 3 year olds.
Rodham-Clinton in da hizouse! Don't be dissin' fool! Word up to ya congress!
Where'd all the real republicans go?
They don't exist and never really have. All Republicans really care for is whether their taxes are lowered. Anyone who ever said otherwise simply fooled you.
George W. Bush lowered taxes, so nothing else matters. This is all "real Republicans" really wanted, so Republicans no longer care.
If you object to the presidency of George W. Bush, or you are a small government conservative, what this means is that you aren't a "real Republican". The Real Republicans are the ones who voted Bush into office, the ones who put him there, the ones for whom Bush is everything they could ever want. You, unfortunately, are something else.
This is, after all, the strongest the Republican party has been in 50 years, and as it turns out, small government conservatism is not at all a necessary factor in that success.
I heard that they burn at 451 deg F. /sigh
I agree, there are lots of idiots in the world.
But "art", unlike "beauty", is not in the eye of the beholder: it's in the will and intention of the creator of the work. Look up Marcel Duchamp's Fountain. It makes the point most succinctly.
If you can show ANY evidence that the creators of GTA were trying to create a work of art, please do so. The soul of art is intention. The creators were intending to create controversy, money, and at most, a fun diversion. Please give any links that show otherwise.
Even so, that wouldn't make it great, merely a poor work of art. Although I admit that bit is mildly subjective.
Further, I posit that your argument that my argument is invalid, is in itself invalid! So there! Neener-neener! (we could go on like this all day, I hope you realize.)
m-
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
H.C. is among those mistaken Democrats who think that "triangulation" is a viable strategy for anyone but Bill Clinton in the two presidential elections he won. The DNC has run that same strategy three times in a row now and lost every time. I say let her do that--she's not fooling anyone. No Republican will ever, ever, ever vote for her and Democrats are mighty sick of the same losing message being recycled over and over.
At the same time, if the electorate is really so darn morally conservative nowadays, then why the heck is GTA SA selling so well? Maybe it's because it's one of the best video games ever made and people understand that the violence, etc., is NOT REAL and not any more reflective of what they actually think, feel, and do in the real world than going to see Alien vs Predator is.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
No wonder I had this overwhelming urge 16 years ago to find some livestock and hook it up to wagon! Damn Oregon Trail!
You've obviously never been to a place that's even remotely socialist - I have yet to see an actual, hardcore socialist politician in the US.
"It's called giving them the tools to make the right decision for them, whatever that decision is."
Shut up. You have no idea what you are saying and sound like a ridicules politician. What "tools" can we give them? You understand, if these parents actually cared about their kids and what they were doing, instead of caring only about themselves and their careers, then these kids wouldn't get these games. It's pathetic parents don't have a clue what their kids are doing.
I'll be damned if I waste more tax money and giving parents "tools" to understand the fucking kids. Pay attention to them! Talk to them! Find out their interests! If they want something, investigate it! It's called the Internet, magazines....calling a store to see what they say! And I don't even have a rug rat!
Morons like you are the types that propose "plans" and giving people "tools". It's garbage.
The only problem is parents who don't give a shit about what their kids do. People that *think* they are good parents but haven't a clue.
When I worked at a game store, parents would call and ask about a game, or come in, or ask to see a magazine...or say they looked this game up on the net and are not sure about it. We would ask them their kids age, let them know what 'M' meant and usually recommend a game with similar style, but for kids.
Go take your plans and tools and piss off. I, and many others, are sick of paying for dip-shit people that don't care about anyone but themselves. Lets maybe spend those tax dollars on people that need it, like the working poor people who would never be able to afford a game in the first place, much less health care for their kids. I'm sick of giving money to fuck heads and their causes because they are too lazy and self centered to do what they should; pay attention to your fucking goddamn, worthless piece of shit, spoiled kids. Excuse my French.
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
Shit, everyone knows she had Chelsea as a career decision so that US mothers would identify with her.
This is a classic Clinton move - everything is completely calculated to further her career.
There's a transcript available at gameFAQs which you might find enlightening.
Careful, there's a lot of text there.
How many time do I have to see the same thing?
I thought when you came to a conclusion, that was it. I thought this was America. I thought it was the people's choice, not the most popular political figure...
We're going to see this over and over and over and over again, until we have nothing to think but what they've been telling us. Even if it is a lie.
- and besides that, she is really scary...
- she'll never get elected to the Oval Orifice because she has one...
BTW, just how did that box of evidence show up in a closet at the White House?
My karma is not a Chameleon.
Demeaning towards women, cursing, drugs, and racial profiling blacks.
God spoke to me.
I'm troubled by the fact that Dennis Hastert, a BA in Economics and Speaker of the House, actually thinks it's somehow a good idea
:)
I've got a Ph.D. in the field, and I think it's a good idea. Not the solution to all the world's problems that it gets sold as, but:
1) Companies bring various stages of production in-house, to avoid the tax,
Actually, a VAT makes no difference at that level. Assume it's the final producer that sells to the consumer for simplicity's sake (it makes no difference; it's just easier to see). If the product will sell for $100 + $20 VAT, it really makes little (not "no") difference whether the firm buys it for $80 and sells it for $20 and collects an entire $20 in tax ($120 total), or buys it for $80+$16 and sells it for $20. Same net effect either way, with the same incentives to produce (even if it could make that $80 input itself, it would add a $16 VAT to *that* portion). Howevever, it *does* make inventory a bit more expensive.
2) Companies become less-prone to developing new goods/services, as they become taxed more with each successive level of complexity
This applies to *any* tax; it really has nothing to do with the VAT.
Probably the worst aspect of a VAT, however, is that it is a tax which is invisible to the end-consumer;
This is a serious problem--but it's no worse than payroll withholding (it's the same thing, actually)>
Contrast this with a sales tax, which slaps the consumer in the face every time he/she buys something;
Err, VAT and sales tax are the same thing, with the only difference being that sales taax is collected only at the final stage, while it's collected a bit at a time along the way. The salses tax is easier to evade (can be done at a single point), while the VAT causes some extra capital burdens along the way. For the "hiding," the solution is simply to have the VAT appear on the sales tag the same way sales tax does.
It's not that VATs are good for the economy; no tax is--but we can't get by without them. It's that they would do less damage.
I was asked to sign the FairTax letter, and ended up instead writing a couple of columns about why I didn't. The first actually extolled the virtues o f the plan, and is at http://dochawk.org/column.050204.html
You also might like http://dochawk.org/column.050324.html about classic liberals--you sound like one of us
hawk
GTA dosent teach you to have sex with prostitutes and kill them... it does however teach you that having sex with prostitutes is a great alternative to going to the gym, especially if your low on health.
I guess she's ran out of crap to talk about and decided to try the "Video games screw up our children" campaign even though its been done atleast 5 times a year.
Ok,
So it isn't good for them?
That's why said children have parents. To keep them away from such games, that we as adults may actually responsibly enjoy.
I've played it, and I've yet resort to prostitution.
Stop spoiling things for the rest of us, because you can't take care of your children!
Healthcare promise:
Reality?
Another Healthcare promise:
Reality?
Environmental promise:
Reality?
Education promise:
Reality?
Welfare promise:
Reality?
I've considered it on and off for years.
.
I have a problem with the oath.
In 1996, I gleefully voted "None of the Above" for President. I'd been planning on a protest vote for a third party, but I was quite happy to be remindced when my ballot arrived that we Nevadans have tha toption (Electors are a statewide office).
In 2000, though, I read that year's Libertarian candidate's statement in the Wall Street Journal--and I could have written every line (save for one where he called for too much government). I happily voted for him.
However, last time I checked, the Libertarian Party still required taking its oath to join--and I have moral objections to it (sometimes first use of force *is* morally required).
BTW, a locally determined minimum wage isn't "sensible", it's just "less senseless" (and less harmful to the poor) than a federal level . .
hawk, classic liberal
yup she actually said 'diss'1 4533.html
http://clinton.senate.gov/~clinton/speeches/20053
Ok, so when it first came out that you could a) have sex with a prostitute to get health back, and b) kill her to get your money back, netting you a health gain for nothing. I had to try it in GTA.
So, I drove up to what looked like a prostitute. Nothing. She wouldn't get in the car. I tried this with a bunch of different women in the game to see if maybe a "prostitute" looked different than I thought. No dice.
I talk to a friend of mine. He clarified. Now, here's what you have to do.
A) Beat up your car (prostitutes apparently won't get into cars that look too nice).
B) *Find* a prostitute (which isn't as easy as it sounds, as many tartily dressed women in the game aren't, in fact, hookers)
C) Drive to a secluded area (not any alley will do...it has to be off the beaten path)
When this happens, the car will rock back and forth. If you move the camera around and look in the car, you do in fact see that the two people are doing NOTHING but sitting there. During this time, your health will go up slightly.
After the prostitute gets out of the car, you can kill her, run her over, whatever. She will drop money.
It is also noted, that MOST pedestrians will drop money when killed, so I never bothered to check that if I just ran her over before anything, would she drop the cash.
Now...why did I walk through this? Because, IT'S A REAL P.I.T.A. TO DO! It takes WAY too long to get your health back this way! There are free health boosts sitting around at any hospital!
So, can you *DO* this in the game? Yes, yes you can. Is it CLEAR that it's REWARDED to do this? No! It's a freakin' WASTE OF TIME, that was clearly put in there as a detail. I don't even THINK the killing of the prostitute is connected, as I said...I believe you can get token amounts of cash from MOST pedestrians you kill, as well as deal with the possible risk from cops for such a petty amount of money ($200 at most...which is PENNIES after you play for about 5 minutes).
And yet, TOO MANY POLITICIANS have parroted the "teaching/rewarding you for sleeping with and killing prostitutes" line. Yet NONE of them clearly understand it for what it is...an aside, a bit of color...a way to immerse you in the world...if you can even figure it out how to do it!
This random demonizing of games has gone so far that the following quote was from the Chicago Tribune about the impending state law to restrict sales to minors:
(I found a copy of the article on GameCritics)
"They're watching police officers getting their heads blown off. They're defecating on people," she said. "They get extra points for sleeping with prostitutes."
Once again the reference again to getting "extra points for sleeping with prostitutes." The lack of clarity on "points" shows that this person has NO clue about what they are talking.
(I also want this person to SHOW me the game where "They're defecating on people.")
When will games/music/movies stop being the scapegoat for bad parenting? Does this just happen every time something new and scary comes along?
Hillary will come out against violence in GTA, but not say a word about violence and mysogeny in Rap which is far worse. Why? She wouldn't dare say anything to alienate the black vote. But she'll come gunning for gamers, alright. That way she can appear to be "hard on crime." Watching Hillary stake out her position is pretty entertaining. This is a carefully chosen strategy of her's, folks. She's done polling and everything, so look for more of it. Man, what a snake. I hate politics.
This is a calculating, political move, IMO. She's trying to reach the conservative Democrats (and Republicans) with controversial, conservative statements like this one. As time goes on, we'll be hearing more of this kind of conservative talk from her - through November 2008.
Sometimes you gotta' burn a bitch out her crib. Sometimes you gotta run 8-ball over to the Columbian's cargo ship so he can blow it the fuck up.
Sometimes you gotta do both within 8 minutes.
It's been a long day.
How is this flamebait? It's a well known fact that the user known as bonch (and rd_syringe and Overly Critical Guy) espouses a right wing philosophy. Parent post was just pointing out the hypocrisy. Nice job in helping a karma whore like bonch get even more underserved karma.
"And so I ask you this one question: Have you ever tried simply turning off the TV, sitting down with your children, and hitting them?"
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
A few years ago, when I was in high school, I was talking with my principal about school violence. She was talking about how in the past, before the whole "zero-tolerance" stuff came about, kids would get in fights and beat the crap out of each other. Then, dudes A and B that had fought earlier in the day, would be joking and talking with each other after school.
I think that getting agression out of people is a good thing, and maybe sparring/sports/video games help kids do that. I think that this link is at least as plausable as one that says videogames turn innocent Timmy into a murdering psychopath.
When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?
Now wait just a damn minute.
Aren't you they guy who keeps posting stuff about how Fox News is "fair and balanced"? Aren't you the guy who was screaming about how Wikipedia had Abu Graib listed under sexual torture? Aren't you the guy who always get bent out of shape when someone posts a joke about George W. Bush?
What the hell makes you think that you're independent? As someone else said (and was wrongly modded down), you sure smell like a Republican to me.
"[Parents are allowing their] children [to play] a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them..."
That's the begining and ending of the entire argument.
How many kids have access to alcohol, drugs, guns, nudie mags and cigarrettes as well?
Why is everything everyone else's problem? When was "Personal Responsibility", especially when it relates to having kids, completely removed from existance?
Contrary to popular belief, coding is not all free blow-jobs and beer. Those things cost MONEY!
My point was regardless of how bad the games are,
violent crime is way down. Thus we really should not give a care what John Q Public does on his Playstation.
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
but arent you SUPPOSED to have sex with prostitutes and then kill them?
I KUT J00 M4NG!!!
Man, don't I love the 21. Century.
On a more serious note, I wonder if Clinton has noticed that there is this real war going on that is chewing up real U.S. soldiers by the dozen and spitting them out as real dead people and real cripples because things are going really, really bad -- the happy news for today is that our Iraqi friends (half of whom want to turn the country into a second Iran anyway) still can't agree on who gets the most basic jobs for the next few months, that is, until the real elections.
Yeah, nice of her to think about the children, but pardon me for thinking that her priorities should be elsewhere, like figuring out an exit strategy for Iraq.
so it'll make her want to eat balls.
BTW - someone posted "who hasn't thrown the controller across the room at some point?". I haven't with GTA - but I sure have with the @#$#$^%! rally penalties in Gran Turismo 4, which has absolutely no violence or sex in it at all, so far as I have discovered. In general, video games test my frustration level, not my anger management. I have no idea how 6-year olds running on sucrose handle these things.
KeS
Not true! Visual media is absolutely more commanding and representative than books. A book requires you to imagine things, whereas a video game shows you how to do it first hand. Take this example:
Read the following to a 9-year-old and what do you think they will imagine:
Betty circled her lips around Tom's rock-hard cock and drive her mouth down, encouraging him to drain himself into her. As she wildly orgasmed, Harry drove his member deep into her from behind.
Now show a video that shows the exact same action and what do you think will be more harmful to the child?
I would argue that the passage of text would probably confuse the child more than damage them. They wouldn't know what the words meant, assuming they had not been exposed to them before. However, with the video, they see exactly what is going on in a physical sense. They see body parts comparable to their own, and what is being done with them.
Absolutely video has more power to educate and corrupt our children than books do.
These games are just like porn. They should be required to hold the same exact standards or manufacture and sale.
This is the easiest way to ensure that we maintain freedom from censorship, yet protect the innocent from harm.
That's OK; I only kill and torture people in videogames who are the same color and gender as I am. Surely Hillary doesn't mind violence against non-minorities?
After all, we know that white males are worth less than black females.
Its latest research shows that daily use of computer and video games by children has almost doubled since 1999 to almost two hours. Violent games are a favourite with teenage boys. Researchers from the University of Oklahoma recently found that two-thirds of school fights were instigated by regular video game players, but in the study of 607 students only four fights were started by children who had never played such games.
Well, gosh. If most teenagers are playing games for two hours a day - then wouldn't it be likely that most fights are started by game players, as most students are game players? And the four fights started by non-game-players, are probably the only non-game-players in the school. I even find it hard to believe that any student has never played video games. the quote above also mixes statistics - it talks about "two thirds" on one hand, and "four fights" on the other. So, am I to assume that there were only 12 fights for the period in question? let's turn the statistics around - a full third of fights were started by students who had never played a game. I find it hard to believe that a whole third of the student body does not play games. So, it seems to me that non-game-players are over-represented as fight instigators.
Rather than focusing on the content, I wish they would focus on the more disturbing statistic: two hours a day sitting in front of a game. That's not healthy, even if the game about saving super-fluffy-cute-happy-lucky kittens.
Also of more concern are the parents who use TVs and games to babysit kids. Damn, when I was a kid, the most elaborate "toy" we had was a BMX bike. The computer was for learning programming on, not entertainment (at least when the parents were looking). To even ask for an expensive electronic game would have been met with ridicule.
But parents today just give in to the marketing and their own laziness, and buy the spoiled brat the latest X-Box or Playstation Portable. How about these parents buy the kids a nice Linux or Mac system, so they can learn something about using or programming computers? They can even be allowed to play inexpensive shareware or freeware games as a reward for getting work done on the computer. there are also many brain-engaging games on the desktop platform than on the consoles - such as SimCity 4 and other strategy games. I know you can get some of these for consoles, but they just aren't the same without a mouse, keyboard, HD storage space and map-making tools.
But of course, in the brave new America, thinking is bad for you, Macs and Linux are evil, and you have to buy the biggest-selling commercial games for Windows or X-Box. You should design websites and blogs with Microsoft Word, and programming a computer is the equivalent of terrorism.
... and then they built the supercollider.
The first thing I noticed was the comment about Hillary Clinton joining the right wing on her opinions about video games. Huh? Since when has the right been complaining about violence in video games? Last time I heard, Joe Liberman and Tipper Gore were the ones complaining about violence in video games, not George W and Tom DeLay.
Who the heck wants her to be president? I'd prefer Bush any day. Good thing 08 is my first Prez election year :)
Women are objects, cursing is funny, drugs are fun, and racially profiling blacks keeps my neighboorhood white-as-rain.
*ducks*
Haha, isn't that the point of slashdot? To argue pointlessly?
Not to keep this thread going, as your correct, intention defines whether it's art or not, but there are certainly many examples of art that do just exactly what you say Rockstar was doing, creating controversy, wanting to make money, and providing a fun diversion. See Andy Warhol.
A certian amount of violence is built into everybody, but we don't need to be fanning the flames! Young kids can be very hot/cold...one miniute crying over a dead ant.. the next zapping them with the magnifier...
Hillary believes it's ok for a teenage girl to have the right to have an abortion without parental consent, but she can't play a video game with simulated sex and violence.
Vote for Pedro
Seriously, if there are kids who actually think like this because they play video games, their parents need to get whacked up side their heads. Censorship and regulation isn't the key; responsible parenting and education is.
The people who love to play GTA post in anger.
The people against GTA post in anger.
In conclusion: people who post about the debate of violent video games are more likely to kill than those who don't.
Data: 1000 posts so far to sample.
Arnold!
Once they tailor the constitution to fit him, he'll be baack.
"Excuse me, I speak jive."
If this is the best the democrats can do in 2008, looks like I'm going to abstain from voting again.
It's not as if I'm going to vote for some neo-conservative trash.
This is pretty pathetic. As strange as Hilary is on many fronts, I considered voting for her after it became obvious she had hopes for 2008. All it took to reinstate my voter apathy was a pathetic political stunt like this.
Man is the animal that laughs.
And occasionally whores for Karma.
I've got two words for you: Alien abduction.
... and then they built the supercollider.
So I wonder where the "fuck and then kill hoes" meme originated? Maybe it was Raph Koster's talk in which he mentioned that gamers do not see this happening, but rather see a power-up?
If anyone has played a GTA title in which first letting a prostitute into your car and then killing her achieves anything, please speak up,
but from what I've seen by actually playing GTA3 the game mechanics firstly don't encourage this behaviour, and secondly are very abstract and arcade-like. For a politician who never played a videogame in his/her life and just saw some screenshots of a recent GTA title, the game looks kind of realistic, with the nice textures and shading and adequate poly-count. But once you play it, this becomes just an interface to a bunch of little, primitive games; entertaining, but shallow and not more realistic than Super Mario. Drag a cabbie out of his taxi and he will go into his angry "this is my car! don't take it away!" routine, as if it's a personality that really cares. Then switch on the 'vacant' sign (triggering a chauffeur mission) and this very same person will hitch a ride, in the vehicle you just took away from him. Kill a target, but fail to complete the entire mission, and without restorign a savegame, but just by accepting the very same mission a second time, the target will be there again, as if nothing happened. Run over an abstract power-up floating in mid-air and the police will stop following you, or you'll get some magic protection from bullets. And you'll think, "Oh! OK. This is not a role-playing game. It's not an adventure game either. It's just an arcade game about driving from A to B and then maybe to C, and shooting some targets every now and then. There's no real death, no real sex. Not even virtually real. Just Pac-Man-like game mechanics." And if there's any lesson you'll take back into the real world it's an appreciation of how different cars handle differently, eg what a long breaking distance a heavy bus has and that a Porsche can actually be a safer car than a minivan, as you can more easily avoid crashing into obstacles without making it tip over. Last time I saw an ambulance with blue lights flashing in my rear-view mirror, I immediately throttled my speed and steered to the very edge of the motorway, remembering how I was in the ambulance driver's when playing GTA3 and people tried to react my approach in the most idiotic, dangerous ways. To be fair, I also started taking note of parked coaches that were empty, with the door open and the engine running, thinking "hmm, nice vehicle".
but what do i know, i'm just a model.
""Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them...This is a silent epidemic of media desensitisation that teaches kids it's OK to diss people because they are a woman, they're a different colour or they're from a different place." "
So it'd be better for a video game to depict "dissing" a white guy if the perpertrator were white? Why is the implication that a person who is not "a woman or a different colour [sic]" is the bad guy? And what exactly is a different color? Anything that isn't white?
I feel like such a minority in such a liberal state of mind. Sigh.
Whether or not violent video games lead to actual violence is irrelevant. The mere fact that people can take hatred of women and violence and make entertainment out of them is an indictment of our society.
I don't feel that the government has a place in censoring our entertainment, but I also don't think we should stand up for the sick and immoral producers of disgusting games like GTA.
Theres no requirement that entertainment by moral, deep, educating, non-offensive, non-sexual, non-violent or anything else these people complain about. So what if it is, football is vapid, violent and irrelevant, boxing is terribly violent - and its not a bunch of pixels on a screen, and yet no one is deploring the effect that has on children, professsional wrestling is clearly vapid, violent and degrading to women, and yet, it seems to have its happy followers in power as well.
This is all a bunch of nonsense to even point out the lack or this, or the lack of that in entertainment. Its a moot point. No one is being forced to watch football, boxing, professional wrestling or to play a video game. Don't want your kids to watch football? Change the channel. Don't like boxing? Don't go to a match. Do want your kids to play an ADULT game like GTA, heres an idea - don't buy it, don't let them play it, raise your own damn kids and stay out of other peoples business.
Python
Or did Senator Hillary "No-Brains" Clinton just try to teach me something about morality? HELLO, Planet Earth Calling! Morality is not your strong point, with your cheating husband and your 'let's move here just so I can run for senator' sleaseball tactics...
And did she just use the word 'diss'?
Flippin' Retarded!
...some games that are truly kinda sick. Like Postal or whatever those Running with Scissors guys put out. Leisure Suit Larry, anyone? Maybe Larry isn't killing the women, but the morality is pretty questionable. Or what about stuff you can see on TV? Or books kids (at some age) can read?
GTA looks pretty softcore in comparison to many things out there. But it's more popular, right?
Clinton is nuts to try to become the spokesmodel for this. The rightwingers she's courting already hate her, before she starts threatening to take away their videoguns. And lots of her own constituency wants the government out of the business of censoring media. And to kids she's just a scary old lady. She needs a new consultancy.
--
make install -not war
What a fantastically well-reasoned, witty and insightful commentary. My goodness, have you considered getting your own talk show? Your masterful command of the English language leaves me all a-quiver! "Ridicules." Brilliant!
I bow before your obviously superior intellect. All hail! All hail #672391, "nate nice"!
Fear him! Praise him! Love him, for he is your god!
m-
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
Hmm..... I thought she'd be happy for the idea, seeing as how her husband loves professional hookers, especially the fat ones!
Hillary has her causation exactly backwards. Games like GTA don't cause people to want to see murder and mayhem; people wanting to see murder and mayhem causes games like GTA to be popular. These games exist because there's a demand to see them, not the other way around. The other day, Gladiator was on TV, and made me think about how we all say the Romans were cruel, because they made people fight to the death in the Colosseum for their amusement. Nowadays, of course, just watch people who are pretending to fight to the death in the Colosseum for our amusement. It all works out to the same thing-- people want to see violence because it's exciting, and they'll seek it out where they can find it. We should just be glad that in our modern world it's no longer necessary to actually kill people to satisfy the crowd's natural lust for blood.
So, do violent video games cause violence? There's no need to commission fancy studies, just look at the real world statistics: violent video games have only been around since the 90's. Crime has been on a steady decline since the 90's. Crime was much higher in the 80's.
Should we blame Pac-man?
Like it or not, this is the truth.
"Play is the only way the highest intelligence of humankind can unfold." -- Joseph Chilton Pearce
Human sacrifice is not really what I call a fresh start and it is not any less horrific than anything in GTA. At least the OT only required acceptance of animal sacrifice.
Ah... food for thought. You're right about Warhol, of course. Though, he also believed that his work was art, which changes things a bit. In addition to his quest for money and fame, he was obsessed with redefining and stretching the boundaries of art, like the dadaists.
:-)
It's obviously not a cut-and-dried, black and white line. I remember years ago when I was doing a lot of ceramics, there would be 3 groups of people who would come through: the artists, the crafters, and a large group that straddled the line: neither one nor the other, or perhaps both at the same time.
It's an amazingly hard thing to quantify, but there is a real difference. Quite often you'd see someone who identified with one group or the other strongly, but really 'belonged' in the other category. Of course, this is all subjective and non-quantifiable.
m-
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
I personally find GTA to be completely despicable.
I hung around with some people who played it constantly when I was in college and I simply did not understand the draw of it at all, the gameplay blows, the graphics are typical crappy texture ps2 junk and the controls are irritating. I don't have a big problem with games containing some violence, but when violence becomes the selling point I begin to question the motives of the publisher, developers and artists.
But really, other than complaining what is it that Hillary wishes to do? I have no problem with having strictly enforced mandatory age limits for games, but anything beyond that would be in the realm of censorship.
"Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness." --Eric Blair
WTF?
Didn't anyone RTFA? It says Hillary wants money to (*gasp*) study the issue.
Why the hell is this troll marked insightful?
Video games have nothing to do with teaching kids what is OKAY. Parents show their young how to act in the world and are the primary role model regardless of exposure to violent games or hookers.
Don't try and pin a reason on a subsequent problem. If you're too busy to have kids, then don't: because then your kids won't be stuck on a computer all day long if they have something more socially interactive available to them. If you're both a role model and a parent, your kids will be fine.
The (insert bad thing here) in GTA, SoF, Q3A, Counter-Strike, Mortal Kombat, C&C, Dungeon Keeper, PacMan, (insert any video game here), will not corrupt your kid's brain upon exposure. You show them what is right and wrong, not a video game! Make that distinction clear!
O'KEEFE ...
Bring on all the motherfuckers! Bring their college degrees in here! I got nuthin' to hide. They can't buy me. You can't buy me. I don't even need the parole. This is about the truth coming out. You're a goddamn liberal, Mr. Garrison, you don't know shit, cause you never been fucked in the ass. Fascism is here now, Facism is
JIM
No one's trying to buy you, Willie. It's important to know why you're telling us this.
O'KEEFE
(pauses)
You wanna know why? 'Cause that mother fucker Kennedy stole that fuckin' election, that's why! Nixon was gonna be one of the great Presidents 'til Kennedy wrecked this fuckin' country. Got niggers all over the fuckin' place asking for their rights, where do you think we got all this fuckin' crime now, 'cause Kennedy promised 'em too damned much. Revolution comin'. Fascism's coming back. I tell ya this - the day that Communist sumbitch died was a great day for this country. I jes' hate to think they're blaming it on some silly fuckin' Oswald who didn't know shit anyway. People should know why that sumbitch was killed. 'Cause he was a Communist. Put me on the stand, go ahead, I'll tell the same goddamn story, I'm proud of it, don't matter fuck all to me, things don't change.
"Play is the only way the highest intelligence of humankind can unfold." -- Joseph Chilton Pearce
The problem with ALL presidents and ALL politicians who really really WANT to be President is that they are evil, power hungry bastards who will do almost ANYTHING to become President.
A good president could be someone who is actually DRAFTED into the job. That is the only way to get a good president. THe only real qualifications are that they be decently educated and have an open mind, and have a life besides plotting and scheming to be President.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
I keep seeing these damn John Deere commercials, and it's making me cut the grass and trim weeds!
'"Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them," the US senator and former first lady said.' Here, she neglects to mention that these children were unsupervised by their parents, that GTA is clearly rated for people older than 17, and that there is no encouragement to kill a hooker or even have sex with one. I think, as gamers, we have a responsibility to inform the general public about what's left unsaid by watchdog groups and politicians. Let's all hang up flyers in our local supermarkets correcting the mistruths of violent video games >D. "Researchers from the University of Oklahoma recently found that two-thirds of school fights were instigated by regular video game players, but in the study of 607 students only four fights were started by children who had never played such games." Heh, finding a children that hasn't played a game in this day and age is rare, of course the results would be biased.
American Psycho - Bret Easton Ellis. Lots of prostitute killing...
Two tears in a bucket. Motherfuck it.
Her husband may have been more willing to give her body to her parents if she could be legally dead, but physically alive (animal). "Vegetative" is misleading in this case as she has more sentience than any vegetation I know. It is her sapience that seems lacking.
No one person can say whether Jon Stewart is any more or less qualified to be US president than GW Bush. The US head of state is democratically elected, so the majority of those who bother to vote make that decision.
I think that's pretty fair--count yourselves fortunate that almost any American can be US president--it'd sure be sad if you HAD to be a long-serving politician. Here in Canada the head of state's only qualification is to be born to the right parents...King Charles and Queen Camilla? the thought makes me shudder. At least the Queen Liz (the head of state for all the commonwealth nations) is a good lady and is basically a figurehead. Our Prime Minister OTOH...he is so powerful he can wreck our country quite easily--in fact the POTUS has to work much harder to get his way in his gov't than our PM.
...was when I was 14 years old. He was taking some position against video games which lead the industry to shit its pants and make the ESRB. I wasn't old enough to vote at the time, but I was old enough to save up the dough to buy Mortal Kombat 2 for the SNES. But that was foiled when I was asked to show identification.
Eventually, I returned with my mother who approved the sale. All was well.
Except for Senator Lieberman.
In 2000, I was old enough to vote, and voted my revenge. It wasn't Bush vs. Gore to me. It was Lieberman and Tipper "Explicit Lyrics" Gore vs. anyone else.
I voted for Hillary Clinton as Senator, but if I have to decide who to vote for in 2008 the same way as I did in 2000, so be it. And I'm sure a lot of people who will be voting for the first time will see it that way, too.
I don't see how any sane person could derive from a videogame that it's okay to, well, break the law. "Well, the guy on the videogame did it, so I can do it without consequence." Seriously. Additionally, this is the message that I am getting from all of these GTA bashers: "Oh, we can't blame the parents. That will make them feel bad. Let's pick on the videogame industry." Who's acting like the child here?
INACTIVE ACCOUNT
Solar Lottery : A Novel
by PHILIP K. DICK
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1400 030137/qid=1112142567/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-292218 7-2705414?v=glance&s=books
Thanks for putting on the feedbag. Thanks for going all out. Thanks for showing me your Swiss Army knife.
"I think it's disingenuous to say that GTA is also a veiled criticism of our society. It's more like Miami Vice: all glorification and glamorization. At least on Miami Vice, the main character was a good guy (if a flawed one).
GTA isn't a great work of art. Don't pretend that it is."
Have you even played San Andreas? It's a beautifully crafted experience, the core storyline focuses on the *problem* that too many people are mindlessly killing, and the acting is better than in most movies I've seen in the past four years.
Just because you don't see the subtle criticism of popular culture in the GTA series doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Lots of people are probably incapable of seeing the irony in A Clockwork Orange, Grendel, or most of the post-modern movement in literature - that doesn't mean such books should be banned.
The only reason I would vite for Hillary for President would be the idea of Bill prowling around the White House for four yearsw with nothing to do. Now THAT would make a great video game!
A most overlooked advantage to owning a computer is if they foul up there's no law against wacking them around a bit.
Got any studies proving this? or Statistics.
Thanks for putting on the feedbag. Thanks for going all out. Thanks for showing me your Swiss Army knife.
whatever happened to parental responsibility? This game is specifically NOT for anyone under 18. Its no different from an R-rated movie. The fact that its a game is irrelevant. If the parents have such a problem with it, it it THEIR job to make sure their kids aren't playing it, NOT the government.
Don't worry, most Dems aren't really interested in her running for Pres. In fact, the only people who seem to spend any time talking about it are Republicans and the media...
can be SO EASILY manipulated.
1. Ban religion from schools
2. Let kids forget about religion and morals altogether
3. Impose YOUR morals (thru the media, games, schools or whatever) now that the competition is gone
4. ???
5. Profit!
As a sidenote, I'm not only talking about the relatively recent courts decision of banning religion from state schools in the US.
In Mexico, religion was banned from schools in the late 1920's, and all opposers were labelled as bigots (by the Freemasons in the dictatorial government),persecuted and killed in a massive witch hunt.
80 years later, when the first opposing party president is elected, it's too late: today's kids enjoy watching crap like Big Brother (instead of cultural - and not necessarily boring - stuff in Discovery), and with absolutely no sense of morals or what is right and wrong. They just do as they please. Their parents? They don't give a damn, either.
Maybe this seems off-topic, but consider it food for thought. When the people's culture has been manipulated thru generations, free speech isn't free anymore. It's rather speech for those with money (or power).
Yeah, because anybody who is concerned with civil liberties is going to join the party which throws a fit anytime they see a boob on TV or someone says shit.
Not to mention the self-righteous behavior this past week in Florida.
Well, maybe it'd be a good start to emphasize the importance of local government to voters. I don't know why people are so obsessed with the presidential race, congress is in charge of legislation and spending, all the president really has the power to do is carry out actions with the approval of congress.
Not to mention that most of our services and laws are provided/applied on the state and local level. That means that who you elect for governor is more likely to impact your life than who you elect for president. Moreover, far fewer people are voting for your state and local government, so your vote has more impact.
People need to pay more attention to what happens on the local level. There's no way the federal government could set all local policy in a way people would be happy with. We really need to stop moving power to the federal level, and the only way to do that is for people to pay more attention to local politics.
You mean something like this?
If you read Leviticus out of it's context (and intended audience), then you can get the impression that it condones such activity, but in reality, it only does for Jews living under Levitical Law, which, according to the Bible, shouldn't happen anymore, because if you accept either the Catholic or Protestant canons of Scripture, the Law is no longer of use to even the Jews, because the Law was put in to place in anticipation of the Messiah. Which is why my statement about it not applying to anyone except for 2,000+ year old Jews is correct.
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
Here fucking here. To all parents that disagree, get off your ass and raise your fucking shit kid for a change and take responsiblity.
Show me where. I'll give you a hint--Leviticus doesn't count because it doesn't apply to Christians (not even to Christ himself).
Reviews of *anything*? Amazon, epinions and others let users post reviews (but they have tons of users). You might want to narrow down your focus a little.
Other thoughts -- you need to 1) make sure Google can spider the reviews, since that's where initial traffic will come from, 2) put TONS of good reviews up, because when people see it's empty they just go away, and 3) don't make viewers open up every friggin' empty category until they find one that actually has items in it. At the very least, put text like "(6 items)" after each category listing.
Arnold, Ron Silver, Rudy Guliani? Hmm, hmm... they might do even better than Reagan. I'd vote for Silver if he ran. He's very, very smart and not a fascist. Arnold would be fun. Guliani is a very smart and tough politician. Hillary would get crushed by any of these candidates.
So Hilary is asserting herself as a centrist by decrying immoral video games at the same time as Jeb Bush is asserting himself with the christian right by meddling excessively in a private family matter.
Turn to insults for a spelling error, it's all you have. But after all that we still are left with your terrible idea. You're a moron who doesn't understand responsibility and likes to blame others for their problems when really, the problem is you.
Perhaps you are a lost sheep who needs the great guidance of the government and their political programs to get through the day, but people like me are sick of spending our money on things as stupid as your idea. I don't mind paying taxes, but I do have a problem trying to make stupid people, like yourself, less stupid through terrible programs that uncaring parents wouldn't use in the first place.
As a side note, I am happy to see you recognize my superior intellect but hailing me is not required. I am not a god as you suggest but rather a great mind you should look to for guidance the next time you are confused. I would only appreciate it if you could just try a little harder.
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. And I'm afraid its completely useless to try to explain this to people that agree with Hilary Clinton. You are the same people that think Eminem was sent here by the devil. This is nothing more than censorship and its downright blasphemous. (spelling?) You can try to stop under-agers from buying the game but the moment you tell the game developers to stop developing the game you are not longer a democratic, free nation. Shame on Hilary Clinton and all of her sympathisers in regard to this.
It actually has been banned in some places.
After reading it, i wished i hadn't. It changed my stance on censorship. Before i believed everything should be available to adults. Now i believe that are some things that should never be seen. Where to draw that line, i do not know, but for me American Psycho is out.
Then the issue won't be violent games. It'll be the classic feminist agenda to render illegal most predominately male behavior. We'll all have to become very PC. Calling a woman a "hot babe" will become hate speech. The NFL will have female linemen. NASCAR will have to meet EPA regs for gas milage. Life will get very dull for anyone with XY chromosomes.
straight from the speech text:
.. ... ... ... ... ...
the biggest challenge facing parents is the Internet.
we worry about content
Back in 1997, the Clinton Administration
called for the development of more sophisticated filtering software
no filter is 100% effective
it kind of becomes a game and a challenge to get around the filtering
One of our challenges, therefore, is that technology keeps advancing
Translation:
Youg people these days aren't growing up in exactly the same world we did. We must use our power as old people to stop time, keeping everying as it was in the "good old days" tm).
Kids can go see movies about prostitutes and violence, and if you think about it, video games have reached the point where they can discuss these issues accurately to some extent. If there can be a rated R movie there should be rated R games. We are beyond the pixel games of the 80s and we should realize that gamers are no longer little kids with a pocket full of quarters. Games should be targeted to their audience and if some games are more violent than others it should be up to the sellers of these games to make sure that children don't get them, much like how people under the age of 17 were not allowed to purchase GTA:SA. This shouldn't be an issue and Hillary shouldn't have to worry about it. We need to stop banning products that can hurt kids and focus on the prevention of those kids getting them. If people were properly IDed when they bought games this wouldn't be an issue, but alas, more time and energy is being spent on stupid issues. I congratulate Rockstar for making a fantastic game that the mature audiences can enjoy. It's not intended for kids, correct, but that doesn't mean that people that have graduated college can't enjoy it? YOU CAN'T MAKE AN EXCEPTION BASED ON ONCE INSTANCE!!!!
If art or other entertainment mediums were judged by video game standards, there would be no:
...
Vladimir Nabokov (Lolita)
Nathaniel Hawthorne (Scarlet Letter)
Fyodor M Dostoevsky (Crime and Punishment)
Kurt Vonnegut (Anything he wrote)
Jack Kerouac (Anything he wrote)
Allen Ginsberg (Anything he wrote)
Stanely Kubric (pick one)
Salvador Dali
William Shakespeare
Once upon a time most people subscribed to the notion that something could be definitely right or wrong in a moral sense. Nowadays this concept doesn't seem to popular. Rather, what is "right" or "wrong" seems to be whether or not it is inside or outside the envelope of a running average of whatever a given group of people will tolerate *at a given time*.
all those liberal Dems are right wing
Pol Pot now thats a Progressive!
Grand Theft Auto, which has so many demeaning messages about women and so encourages violent imagination and activities
If I were to make this statement, "TV has so many graphic descriptions of shootings and murders and so encourages violent thinking and activities", wouldn't it pursuade one to think that perhaps the problem of violence disseminates from more than one source?
Nah, she's too fiscally responsible to be a Republican.
They are banned to every one under age when I sell GTA San Andreas or any other game that is marked Mature I have to id those who I think are under age if they don't look at least 21 I usually card them if they are under 17 then they can't buy the game and I have turned people back, but its up to the parents to try and stop every form of violence,sex, drugs, they should research the games, and moniter the content of the music, games, and movies their childern are watching. Instead of sitting on their lazy asses and buying their kids all the shit games they want cuz they want them to just stop whining... Its not the kids fault, The seed doesn't fall far from the tree, its the parents fault, make them take responsibility for their childern instead of passing them off on someone else....
Actually, you're such a lost cause, it's impossible to have a rational discussion with you. You resort to insults instead of arguments. Maybe it's a poor education, or maybe you just weren't hugged enough as a child. Either way, it's a waste of time to even bother responding to you.
Which reminds me.
m-
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
You're now ready for the fourth part of this mission, the ordered murder of the ho you earlier dropped off at the hotel. It seems her john, an evangelical preacher, wants to take her away from the job, and Jizzy isn't having any of that. The preacher is in a stretch limo, escorted by a black SUV with armed guards.
The trick here is to concentrate on the limo first. I used an MP5 and just pulled up alongside them, but if you've been to driving school you could try using the P.I.T. maneuver too. Once the escaping duo have been eliminated, finish off the guards. Jizzy will tell you to keep the pimpmobile or destroy it; I put it in my garage back at The Garage.
The thing that I primarily find ironic about this is the fact that the alleged degeneracy of various different elements of popular culture (video games are only one item on a very long list) are almost exclusively protested by those individuals who together, comprise the single most criminally insane, morally degenerate, and maniacally dangerous group of people currently in existence on this planet; namely, the American Right.
Rightwing politicians and their advocates endorse the slaughter in Iraq, the errosion of education, the erradication of science, apocalyptic foreign policy, the worst forms of cronyism and corruption, both corporate and political, and fear, hatred and xenophobia of every kind, and more dangerous than anything else, the proliferation and use of nuclear weapons. The neoconservative movement ranks in my mind as one of the most dire threats that humanity as a whole have ever faced. For any of their number to express concern about the morality of virtually anything in comparison with their own crimes goes beyond hypocrisy...There is no word in existence to describe it.
Playing games and watching TV keeps a person from
learning to interact properly with others. Lots of
time is devoted to that electronic box. This time
is wasted. Also, learning to expect constant
action and excitement is no good for you. The real
world is boring at times, and you must learn to
deal with that.
The Clinton's should know all about corruption, so Hillary should weigh in as an expert!
Here, Here! ...ok.
I own a Game Center in Orlando, Florida. We make people sixteen and under have their parents sign a consent form, for the type of games they are allowed to play. 80% of the parents laugh and tell me that they are just games. I tell them of the course language and the violence in some of the M titles and generally their response is that they are kids games.
I worry about that, because most of those parents wouldn't let their 14yr old son go and see Basic Instinct, Suspect 0, Kill Bill or Sin City (maybe sin city cause it looks cartoony), but Resident Evil, Doom 3 and Silent Hill are ok...
And as for behaviour of younger kids, I can cleary see that too much TV and Video Games affect them. It makes their minds need more stimulation to be "normal", we call them ADD kids, cause they don't stop bouncing around till we get atleast a 16 player match going as everything else is too slow.
Just the opinion of a guy who see's around 350 13-30 year olds a week playing violent and non-violent games.
Wow, so this means I'll be able to slam-dunk, make fade-away jumpers in real life just by playing NBA Live? There's probably a strong connection somewhere...
Why are we so hung up on crucifying the games industry instead of enforcing policies that they already have in place?
I don't know for sure, but my guess is that enforcing the ratings would essentially be "crucifying the games industry", from the financial standpoint. I bet that's the only thing they really care about and probably have behind the scenes lobbied incredibly hard to not have implemented.
All this "negative" PR even with the ratings in place is not exactly bad for business, you know. Like it or not, an "M" rating is more likely to increase sales just based on that fact alone. Kids are still driving the sales, not their parents.
I don't disagree with you, I just think the reason for the lack of "enforcement" is probably the same reason movie theaters cycle through lax periods as well. I love video games and used to actually have time to play them. But a good fraction of them (and their descendants) are not ones I plan to let my 8-16 year-old kids play. Frankly, I think making the parent go in and buy those titles is only a start. Making them actually play select portions of them before they walk out the store would be even better. No one in the industry (and few likely in the public) would go for it, but forcing all of us to look at the screen and what you do in the game for 10 minutes before saying, "Yeah, I'm OK with my kid playing this." would probably do wonders.
While it might be good for a concerned store clerk to ask a parent if they know what they are buying for their kids, most minimum wage workers aren't concerned enough to risk upsetting a customer by asking personal questions about their parenting.
Agreed. The only solution that will never be implemented is to make the buyer watch or play the game for 5-10 minutes before walking out the store.
Heck, sell the idea to the industry coupled with a signed release form (not useless EULA) stating that the buyer is familiar with the content and therefore has no legal toothpick to stand on and blame the industry when their kid who was already in need of help (and not the violent-release kind) decides to merge fantasy and reality for brief, but deadly moments.
I guess marrrying an adulterer and having a sham marriage for political convinience is much more squeaky clean than pixels dancing on a monitor.
Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses. If you had kept quiet, you would have remained a philosopher.
The cost involved in switching over to be smashed with a government of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death... And by the people because it would imply either that this article quality on /. Is substandard and causing me to look for unknown security limitations similar to what you do is "what everyone is doing" doesn't make it day to solve it's problems.
The problem is not and cannot be a problem.
Whatever you say! I don't believe a word of god, and for the average man can see much better than the extremely questionable link that video games have with real world violence.
Mod parent up. I agree with him completely.
Parents have less and less time for their kids nowadays. What's the solution? Buy them a PS2. Buy them a comp. Tell them "Go play a game, go watch TV" when they want to spend time with you. Then sue a game company when crazy stuff starts happening to your kid because you did not do your duty by giving them the attention they deserve.
I have seen kids who play a lot of games, but who aren't affected by them. Why? Because they have really good parents who care for them and take time out for them and they know it. To them, a game is just a game - something to play to have fun - and not something used to fill a void. The sooner people start recognizing this, the better.
You know, why don't we examine the parents of the kids who do what "games are teaching them"? Isn't it supposed to be the parents who "teach them"? Maybe we all could learn something if we looked at both sides of the coin for a change.
Sorry for the rant, but it had to be said.
As for Senator Clinton, she's doing what all politicians do: try and get votes. I find it very convenient that she has ignored the scores of educational games out there - I mean, a game like Civilization III can teach a kid SO MUCH about history and the evolution of technology.
Let's always present a balanced view please and let's not trust politicians to do it for us.
Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
Hillary and Republican fear-mongering censor-hounds: The games you cite are clearly labeled and rated for content. Your moral outrage is foolish and silly, and is similar to someone getting angry at the possibility of children watching movies which are rated 'R' or listening to music which has explicit lyrics. In any case, the government has no agency which is tasked with protecting children from such material, and this is why either our Creator or at very least our biological evolution has seen fit to provide children with one or more caretakers at birth. We call them parents. These beings are tasked with caring for the "child" segment of society. Let them do the job. All of these politicians who continue to push legislation for the good of society at the cost of the individual need to re-read the Constitution and the Federalist papers, please.
The average Joe is smarter, knows more about real world issues (not politics), and is MUCH more honest than our beloved George W. Bush.
It's true, not EVERY politician has built a career on lies, but the ones in the White House have.
I'll add a vote for McCain.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Looks like you and the senator are making the same point. "Let's have our parents teach us the morals they believe [...]". I don't think that proposing ratings systems is really getting into anyone's personal life. It's really more like helping parents (remember, we're all for the parents) make more informed decisions. I can tell from your other comments though [on this thread anyway] that you are more interested in ranting against all the bad, power-mongering politicians than really adressing the core issue: media saturation and its effect on the young. I'm not even saying that's bad, so nothing personal there. I'm just saying that the quote you pulled for 'Clinton slams GTA' isn't really representative of the argument you are making, i.e. that Clinton is pro-interference-in-your-game-purchases on moral grounds. Sheesh. She never even uses the words moral or immoral in the whole damn speech. She's not dictating any ethics, merely positing that killing hookers is a negative image. Would you even disagree? Should kids be encouraged to partake in the virtual slayings of sex-workers? Or narcotics trafficing? Or jail breaks? Or any number of other (again, would you disagree) anti-social behavior?
Anyhow, in all seriousness, I don't see what the big deal is unless this is all just some left over Clinton bashing that we all haven't got out of our systems in TEN YEARS.
Oh, and to the topic of GTA, until you complete all the Pimping missions in GTA:SA, it really is better to kill the prostitute after your health returns, to get the money back. Once you've mastered the pimping though, you make money on every visit from a whore. At that point you may as well get a ho after every stop at the Burger Shot, to get back some cash you spent on fast food. Yay unlimited consumption, yay unchecked murder, yay trivialized sex roles, yay indescriminate parody of pop-culture! I'm no prude and would consider this innappropriate for any one under (the arbitrary age of Mature ratings) 18. That should reveal some of my bias. I am not a parent.
(Oh and sorry, as usual, I got to rambling and didn't really make any particular point.)
Read Heinlein's 1953 Revolt in 2100, now more than ever.
If I were to mimic the virtual violence I'd been exposed to, my fingers would curl as if on a keyboard and mouse and twitch as if pressing buttons whenever I saw a person dressed in solid red (or blue, if I played mostly on the red team).
Or maybe I'd sit very still and hum, mimicing the computer.
I don't know about you, but to me, there's a HELL of a lot more adrenaline in a paintball game than in ANY video game. Video games, as visually realistic as they are, just don't feel like real violence to me.
Maybe I'm actually turning into an emotional robot such that I might kill real people as if they were game characters. But let's be honest. I'm capable of that, I'd make a good soldier (a real soldier) if I wasn't so damn lazy, but in reality, there's just never a situation where killing real people would engage the same mental state as killing game characters.
Let me put it this way: When I play Counter-Strike, it's a lot like when I play Pac Man. In each game, I'm playing to win, to get points, to accomplish the objective. It helps get me into the game if the objective is realistic, but it doesn't have to be -- the objective could be defending the pie, for all I care.
The same thing just doesn't apply to real life. In real life, you aren't given clear objectives or ways of winning, and there aren't points. The closest thing we have is capitalism, and capitalism doesn't kill people.
Now, how about you stop trying to blame some game developers making an honest living for your own failures as a parent? Good parents raise children who would never touch a real gun, no matter how much Counter-Strike they play.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Try giving set C some violent games, set D some racing games, set E sports games, and set F some good RPGs.
Or, try the original study, but vary X.
I bet the violence isn't an issue, it's the fact that they are playing games. I bet there's a balance where playing video games for a certain number of hours a day is actually BETTER than no hours at all, both for behavior and intelligence.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
maybe she should spend 90 million to study the effect of her influence as role model for young women. It should focus on how her years of looking the other way while her husband cheats on her so she can gain power and money through a sham marriage affected young women today.
I spend a lot of time in focus groups with casual gamers, and here's an interesting insight on their position on the whole 'kill prostitutes' thing...
What appeals to gamers in that is that you CAN do it. It's about freedom: it's about being able to do something, not about actually doing it. Yes, it appeals to gamers to run over prostitutes because it shows that the game is deep and the designers have thought of things that are immoral in real life.
That being said, they don't equate these possibilities with a moral choice. I mean, they don't do these choices as a liberation, but rather as a gameplay mechanic. Most gamers I've met in focus groups spoke of this sort of freedom as something they do because it's interesting that the game allows you to do it. They don't feel they are doing something illegal or immoral because they know it's a game.
But here's the twist... If the game forces you to do it, then they get uncomfortable with it, for the most part. If a game forced you to kill prostitutes and get back the money, then casual gamers *will* start to get squeamish, because it becomes the intention of the game designer, and not a question of freedom.
I think the Right is using GTA as a scapegoat by forgetting that you have as much choice to act well-behaved than you have to be bad. For gamers, the distinction between the freedom to be bad, and being forced to be bad, is still very clear.
Believe it or not, I've met a few gamers who played the whole game by stopping at every red light and respecting traffic laws just for the heck of it. It's not the most popular option and, true, you can argue the game leans you towards bad behavior more than good... But you don't see anyone claiming GTA teaches people how to drive lawfully, now, do you?
P.S.: I don't work for Rockstar. Trust me, even if you're doing, say, a SF shooter, GTA comes up a LOT in any gaming focus group.
P.P.S.: It sucks that H. Clinton is using GTA as an example of racism, since GTA:SA is a rare game that has an African-American as a protagonist and doesn't make a big deal out of it. Saying GTA:SA encourages you to kill black and Latinos is as stupid as saying Burnout 3: Takedown encourages you to destroy red cars.
Did those idiots ever listened to gangsta rap, or even watched TV? Sex BAD, violence GOOD?
You're letting your desire not to be harmed interfere with my natural ability to bash your skull in. If the law agrees with you, that's a moral decision.
Morals are based on dogma. Laws against murder are based on philosophy. If someone can't be bothered to put their beliefs in a coherent philosophical framework then they forfeit their claim to rationality.
Actually, you're an idiot. You are right thought, you cannot have a rational discussion with me because you are a most irrational person. I believe you were not looking for a rational discussion though or else you wouldn't have posted such a terrible comment. Lets face it, you're a moron. But like I said, I am ready to help you and guide you through your ignorant ways. It's what I do. I'm a good person.
As for hugs, I probably got enough of those and I'm pretty sure my education is just fine. I'm sorry you feel it is such a waste of time responding to me which begs the question: Why did you respond to me?.. Oh, I see your sarcasm. I'm guessing you just ran out of clever things to say...well, that actually happened awhile ago...seeing as you're a moron and all...etc. I don't feel it's a waste to respond to you. That is because I like to help unfortunate people as yourself.
Anyways, you're still a moron and everyone knows it. I hope to help you in the future but you keep showing me you cannot be helped. We all can only hope. Anyways, dickface, talk to you later. BTW, I'm happy to see you were added people who hate me. It' alerts me to those that I can easily confuse. Moron.
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
Competent, rational, grounded foreign policy?
GB laid out a somewhat vague, yet also understandible (as it it was easy to parse for just about anyone) foreign policy (support democracy) and seem to be sticking by it. vs. the waffling and backtracking on the part of the democrats who were complaining but then discover elections in other countries are actually kind of nice.
Sound fiscal policy? Balanced Budgets?
That's what they say they are for, and managed to convince everyone. This will probably come back to haunt them, or at least it might if Democrats were not so silly.
A strong economy?
That's pretty stupid to lay out as something you "stand" for because everyone "stands" for a strong economy.
And like it or not the economy has been doing better and better, by most measures. I'm sure you have some heart-wrenching personal anecdote to share that proves otherwise, but really that was one big factor that led to a republican victory - the economy was already visibly getting better, people were spending and traveling more again.
Personal freedom? Civil Rights?
Same problem as before, everyone is "for" these things. And since Democrats voted for the same steamrollering the Republicans voted for, there was little use arguing which side had the high ground here. Anyone who tells me Democrats are the holy protector of freedom and rights gets from me a request to explain Al Gore championing the Clipper Chip.
Honesty and transparency in government?
You Democrats are really annoying, oh sure only YOU stand for apple pie and honesty and anything else you think anyone would admire. Everyone stands for these things, you have to outlay a stance that you think will embody these traits. Democrats have one path, republican another - and the country is divided on which path to take but sieds a little bit towards the republican path.
Can you honestly describe what either path is though? Neither party really can with either clarity but the Republican attempt to do so seems to have met with a greater belief they know what they are talking about.
Actually if you look at it GB has been quite honest, he mostly does what he says (or tries to at least). And that is what scares some people. You can say he's dishonest and then say what he says scares you after all, yet many haters strive to do just that which makes them even less likley to be listened to.
And then of course there's the typical end point you offer of republicans as lunk-headed gaybashers. That just goes to show you aren't paying attenton to the fact that a significant percentage of the gay populace voted for Bush the last time, and more do so EVERY ELECTION. Got a leak there man, and you just seem to be pumping more air into the balloon and making it wider.
I have some gay friends that are quite heavily anti-Bush, and others that are equally as steadfastly for him. It's time you stopped treating members of the gay community as little pigeons to be sheltered behind your cloak and realised they are real people who in the end have lots of different opinions just like everyone else. Want to know a little secret? Why, gay people can even be RELIGIOUS! Gasp! So the next time you trout out some "stupid fundy" speech stop to think about who you might be driving away.
Myself, I'm steadfastly Libertarian so you can say all you like about the Republicans, I don't care as we are just waiting in the wings for the Democrats to finish imploding so we can become the other majority party for once.
If you think you are libertarian you are in fact quite wrong as is evidenced by your message. This is pretty much all I have to say on the matter so I'm afraid I'll have to bow out after your rebuttal.
The only advice I can offer is be really open to all kinds of differnet people, and think tactically.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I can think of half a dozen recent R-rated movies that are at least as violent if not worse than GTA games. You don't hear any senators talking about how said movies are leading the youth of America down a violent path. If Ms. Clinton or Senator Liberman were to speak out against say, "Kill Bill" it would be lauded as censorship!
Yet they continually attack the games industry for producing "grown-up" entertainment. I know several parents who don't even realize their kids' games have a rating system. The fact of the matter is that the movie ratings system is more strictly adheared to by society. Parents need to realize a rated M game equals a rated R movie!
What our beloved senators should be fighting against is the complete lack of parenting going on in this country. At the risk of opening a can of worms, I can think of only one reason they won't. Parents=Votes! "gotta get re-elected... can't blame the voters...(whistles)...heeeeeere little scapegoat!"
Adam
P.S. I should proabably mention I don't play the GTA series as I PERSONALY don't care for the violence.
When the hell are people going to figure out that games do not dictate the behavior of the people playing them except in extraordinary circumstances (i.e. The player is ALREADY CRAZY)?
If Grand Theft Auto teaches you how to behave towards people, you don't belong in society to begin with. You have problems that aren't going to be fixed by merely not playing video games.
Our [The U.S.] culture is simply too goddamned repressed. Look at Japan. Granted, they don't have any guns, but you can also see pretty much ANYTHING on TV. And the print media? Christ... You ever seen some of the manga that a kid in Japan is likely to come in contact with over the course of the day?
And guess what? It's an island nation the size of California, with half the population of the U.S. (A population that is FAR from evenly distributed.) If that was America... We would've all gone batshit and destroyed the entire species by now.
It's not the games. It's not television. It's an entire culture of emotionally retarded and repressed (regardless of age) children. The sooner we figure that out, the sooner we can do something about it. Though I doubt that'll ever happen, because these dolts would much rather let the country self destruct so they can go after the SYMPTOMS and ignore the underlying cause.
I'm American. I'm white. I've come to terms with the fact that my culture is pathetically repressed, and make due. I pretty much do nothing but play video games and watch anime. And I have yet to kill people for the hell of it. (Or even for totally legitimate reasons, for that matter.)
This is just my 2 yen, and I'm still pretty groggy from getting up. But tell me I'm wrong. Now, I have to go review the latest omfgwtfbbq murdergame. GOOD DAY TO YOU!
Friend: "The NIC is misconfigured..." Me: "No prob, I'll just telnet in and fix it." *Silence*
I'm not the original poster, but I'll take the bait anyway.
GB laid out a somewhat vague, yet also understandible (as it it was easy to parse for just about anyone) foreign policy (support democracy) and seem to be sticking by it. vs. the waffling and backtracking on the part of the democrats who were complaining but then discover elections in other countries are actually kind of nice.
Don't rewrite history. I recall exactly what happened. First, Bush promises to pull troops back to the US and not engage in nation-building. Fine. Then all of a sudden we HAVE to invade Iraq IMMEDIATELY OH MY GOD FOR OUR OWN DEFENSE! When that rationale turned out to be based on thin air, Bush waffled again and attempted to embrace this "free the people" attitude. (At that point only the delusional really believed him, no offense.) As expected, when it was time to help out in Sudan (to "free the people") we couldn't be bothered to actually send anybody there. So I'd have to say that Bush's foreign policy is totally inconsistent.
That's what they say they are for, and managed to convince everyone. This will probably come back to haunt them, or at least it might if Democrats were not so silly.
Not everyone. Obviously.
That's pretty stupid to lay out as something you "stand" for because everyone "stands" for a strong economy.
It's a matter of priorities. Think about what would happen if Bush were as eager to bolster America's economy as he is to wage unilateral wars.
Same problem as before, everyone is "for" these things. And since Democrats voted for the same steamrollering the Republicans voted for, there was little use arguing which side had the high ground here. Anyone who tells me Democrats are the holy protector of freedom and rights gets from me a request to explain Al Gore championing the Clipper Chip.
That's irrelevant; we're discussing the hypocrisy of Republicans. They claim to want less interference from Big Government in your life, but then turn around and legislate the opposite.
You Democrats are really annoying, oh sure only YOU stand for apple pie and honesty and anything else you think anyone would admire.
You seem to love talking about the Democrats to mask the Republicans' shortcomings. In this case, even you have to admit that the Republican leadership has been involved in some pretty dark scandals. From Plame to Torturegate to the Gannon affair, they have shown over and over that we really can't trust them.
It's time you stopped treating members of the gay community as little pigeons to be sheltered behind your cloak and realised they are real people who in the end have lots of different opinions just like everyone else.
Make no mistake buddy, it isn't through any altruistic yearnings that liberals stand up for gay rights. I find it offensive and dangerous that a personal lifestyle choice such as sexuality is used as a basis for discrimination. I don't care if every homosexual on the planet loves Bush, if we allow the government to treat us (the people, as a whole) this way then we're opening the door for future abuses.
Myself, I'm steadfastly Libertarian so you can say all you like about the Republicans, I don't care as we are just waiting in the wings for the Democrats to finish imploding so we can become the other majority party for once.
Be wary of what you wish for. Majority parties have to pander to the general populace. The Republicans have had to pander to religious fanatics (pardon my editorialization) and the Democrats try to pander to the working class.
Of course, it is highly unlikely that the Democrats will "implode" just yet. In fact, if it weren't for 9/11 we would probably have a Democratic president right now. Using a crisis to grab power is one of the oldest tricks in the book, but it won't last forever. The writing is already on the wall; Bush won reelection by a vanishingly small margin, becoming one of the least popular two-term presidents in history.
Well, of course it is going to teach kids wrong ideas, the not so bright ones who can't figure this stuff out. But...in San Andreas, you don't have to kill them to get money back if you finished all the pimping missions...geez, these senators just need to get their facts straight...
Parents are responsible for what their kids are exposed to.
If parents think GTA is bad for kids, then parents shouldn't let them play the game . If kids _were_ harmed playing it, then it would be their parents' fault.
I don't think it's bad. Children can understand the difference between fantasy and reality. Of course, an XBox is not the best nanny, but it's not harmful by itself, either.
For example, reading H. P. Lovecraft has more potential of being harmful to kids, and noone is thinking about limiting his books distribution.
I think what Hilary is missing is, making a game where you do the same shit you do everyday is NOT entertaining. Games exist to create a fantasy world where the user/game-player can act out and do whatever he or she feels like doing without the consequences. You don't see a game out there called, "Office Party", do you? Well, my idea of Office Party, based on Hilary's ideas, would be something along the lines of a day spent in the office. The game would be structured around the Sims and involve other in-game tasks like "Speed Filing" and "Pencil Sharpening". Yeah, real exciting, I'll go back to work now.
She's also missing the fact that 8-year-old kids don't know anything about gang-bangin' or anything like that. Little Timmy doesn't have a credit card and probably makes about a buck every week for allowance. With games being upwards of $50-$60 (US), I doubt little Timmy can learn the arts of hacking up a hoochie.
Granted kids don't have ALL the technicalities of their actions 'installed' in their brains, they at least have the "what's right and what's wrong" extensions. This should cause the kids to stop, think, and ask what the consequences of their actions are. For those parents who don't believe in spanking your kids, you'd better grow a pair. Turn little Timmy upside-down, paddle his ass til his nose bleeds and send his ass to his room. Usually, it only takes once. We turned out ok, so why are we going soft on our kids?
Thirdly, if Hilary wants to see action, she needs to impose a law stating that retailers and distributors of these games MUST ask for ID prior to selling the game. If they can do it for firearms, why not a damned game? Afterall, they ARE going through the trouble of keeping those game-rating guys locked in a closet, testing the games to determine their ratings, and printing the damned logo on each box.
So the bottom line is, quit bitching, learn to use the system, and read up on what your kids want for "toys".
-- Game Developers: Stop porting badly-textured games from crappy console systems!
"Senator Hillary Clinton has joined right wing advocates in decrying the gaming industry as a
paragon of loose morals and corrupting influences"
Are you sure they are talking about the gaming industry? Sounds more like a debate about the Clinton family! Lets see Criminal Acts: Whitewater - the Rose law firm cover-up and murder ~ (everyone knows that Hillary was involved but escaped liability due to being first lady); Loose Morals: the whole Monika episode and all the other interns and staffers that Bill screwed while in both the White house and the Governors mansion ~ aside from being adultery this abuse of power in the work place would be considered sexual harassment in the private sector. Under the HR policies of most fortune 500 firms if the Chief exec had screwed some intern they would be fired by the board immediately; Lying to congress under oath - aside from be an impeachable offense, this is just plain despicable and weasel like activity especially from the man who is entrusted with defending the constitution.
I think that Hillary should clean her own house before she starts pointing fingers at others. Especially the gaming industry. Games are just that - games. They do not advocate that you pick up a gun and go out to kill people. These games are already rated and it is the parents responsibility to watch & manage their children's activity. The state has no right or responsibility to engineer what moral codes parents choose to instill in their children. Also as the former first lady and a current democratic senator one would think that she actually believes in the constitutional rights of freedom of speech and freedom of expression but I guess she is still really just at heart the commie hippie she used to be back in college.
Between idiots like her and Bush, Americans are experiencing a rapid erosion of all their rights ~ by time your grandchildren grow up they will be living in some capitalist version of the former soviet union complete with Homeland KGB. Da Comrade.
Fiscally responsible? That's a fucking laugh. The words "responsible" and "Clinton" have no business appearing in the same sentence! Travelgate? Watergate? Filegate? These folks have been involved in a curious number of questionable activities, don't you think?
Vince Foster: Boy, could I tell you some stories if I hadn't been shot in the neck and had my body dumped in Ft. Macy Park!
The "World's Smallest Political Quiz" now uses the phrase "liberal libertarian"... but really, arguing over the name is pointless. I think "socialist libertarian" reflects the point of difference more: it comes down to whether you value collective liberty over individual liberty, and socialism is the political movement of collectivism. But hey, "liberal" is probably a slightly easier sell than "socialist".
Anyhow, the point still stands: the US libertarian party is mostly right-wing libertarians who view any kind of tax to support the freedoms of others as unwarranted state interference.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
"Frankly, too many parents are totally IGNORANT
You give people waaaay to much credit. Most of the people I know who allow their kids to play GTA (or other such games) also watch South Park with them and allow them to watch all manner of television and movies. Frankly, I think that too many parents have deficiencies in their ability to judge how their actions will affect their children and society in the future.
[worst case scenario]
I remember parents of my friends in middle and high school who would regularly buy (or SELL!) alcohol and drugs for the kids who came over to hang out at their house. Others would turn a blind eye to the kids who wanted to do these things in their house. Oh, they knew, but I guess they wanted plausible deniability, or they were not completely bankrupt of morals and tried to fool themselves in some weak-ass sickened way.
Anyways, I noticed two things about the people who did this and their children (who now have children!). They actively encourage their kids to engage in age innapropriate behavior of all kinds. Most of the behavior they encourage is personally and socially destructive.
And you wonder which kid told the others about how to run the hooker over after boinking them in the back of the car.
Ignorance is not the problem. I think that too many people just don't give a fuck about their kids.
On a lighter note I was telling my daughters (9 and 7) about responsibility and accountability last night. One thing I realized and then revealed to them was that sometimes, when I did things that they did not like but that were good for them, that I was acting out of responsibility to THEM. Not only them as they are today, but their future selves, the people who will hold me me accountable for my actions and scrutinize my methods with mature intillect and sound, adult judgement.
Then we played Going Postal 2 till 3 AM and I sent them to school drunk.
When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
Then do something about all the stupid Americans who think the old testament is how the US should be run.
Also can you clairfy the "witch or assasin (poisoner)" debate?
"GTA takes away all that context. There are no repercussions for bad behavior, quite the opposite."
Are you playing the same GTA we are?
Yah we dont have to sit through our characters being imprisoned, and on trial, but there are quite clear repercussions to actions in the game.
If a cop sees you commit a crime, they take action. Once I somehow seemed to anger some pedestrians on foot and had a few trying to beat me up. Pick on a gang too much and they will start shooting at you any time you get in range. One thing I do think they should have done was have the hookers stop servicing you if you repeatedly kill them after.
Honestly I rarely use their services in the game, and by the time I did I had enough money I had no urge to get it back.
If this isnt the most bit of liberal flamebait ive seen in a while....
:( ) being in here.
you know im sick of posts like this being put in casually, when it has NO BUISSNESS (thats right- this is about hillary clinton and GTA, not our presidents, poor left wingers
Whats even more sad, is that some stupid idiot has to go and mod this 4 for being "insightful", when OBVIOUSLY its offtopic.
Liberals, bush won. The electoriates voted that he won. America as a whole, decided that he would be the better president. Hes (obviously) not a moron , and hes obviously not doing too bad seeing as well, evreyone is still alive (a feat i dont see liberals helping twards that at all, since all i've seen is them bitching...), but seriously. The elections over. You threw every bit of slander, jeer, lie, and ounce of deceit you had at him and he still won. so, to put it simpaly:
QUIT YOUR MOANING AND DEAL WITH IT.
because noone cares.
-nd
-ND
Not even Jesus was under Levitical law
so the fsck what? the parent didn't say "Uh, can you point to a book that rewards the reader for killing a hooker, that Jesus would have followed and doesn't contradict itself in places", retard.
---
Is this the MPAA? Is this the RIAA? Is this the DMCA? I thought it was the USA!
You may be right about that tendency. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions.
In fact, if you look at the rest of the world, you find that the US is extremely unbalanced about censorship -- one boob flash on the superbowl is the downfall of civilization, but think nothing of watching Braveheart as a father-son movie. So I'd gladly see more restrictions around violent content, and less around sex.
Parents shouldn't be so lazy, though. I'm not sure how to fix that, but laws that try to parent for you are a band-aid at best. If we're going to legislate anything, it should be something that tends to make better parents.
And, I'm not a minor, legally speaking, but I'm not a parent either. I'm 18.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Who the hell brought up christian theology? The old testament clearly states that prostitution is a crime punishable by death, nimrod.
*attention: this post is not off topic like 99% of the others. i promise*
the end.
First of all, a Levite would not be technically "rewarded" for killing a hooker.
Second of all, insofar as Levites is concerned, you are correct. However, I don't think I need to remind you how many people on this thread and others have accused Leviticus of encouraging "murder" for Christians. Since Levites don't exist these days AFAICT, the book is pretty much irrelevant, except for being part of the Christian canon of scripture. In which case, I would have to extrapolate that you're making a point that the Bible as a whole condones murdering hookers.
I don't know why that makes you think I'm retarded.
The worst of the "drug war" laws - criminalization of marijuana, forfeiture laws, mandatory sentances - all happened loooong before Clinton took office.
it was Clinton who knocked it up to the next level, instituting programs such as "Know Your Neighbor"
Such a far reaching, massive program that Google searches like '"know your neighbor" clinton drug war' turns up a lot of jack squat. Why don't you do something constructive, like trying to blame the Asian tsumani on him instead.
No really, the way that the second part of the quote took place on the other end of the speech and probably had very little to do with Grand Theft Auto (more on the media as a whole) was real responsible.
/. is a gamer, it's smart to take a speech which is about the media, find one sentence in which GTA is mentioned, and assume that everything else in the speech is related to that sentence. That way, over 1000 people will reply to the post since they think it's about GTA, lots of debates about GTA take place, and that means more ad revenue for you. Bravo.
...
Since everyone who reads
[/sarcasm]
(Kudos on giving a link to the full speech)
"When the atomic bomb goes off there's devastation...but when the atomic bong goes off there's celebraaaaation!"
It won't change until you find a way to convince the general public to stop voting people they don't really want up through the primary elections just because they think they can win
Great advice, if you are a dissatisfied conservative. If you want to elect a democratic candidate, you do have to vote for someone "electable", or your idealism will merely insure that the Republicans win. Again.
Why do I say this? Because the center/left simply can not afford to screw around with oddball presidential candidates or pushing thrid party candidates with no chance to win. Currently, there is no split in the God/gun nut/no taxes jihad, so to divide your base while the other guy's base is united is asinine. There's another term for asinine in this context: Ralph Nader.
Yes, the Democratic party needs to refocus and find new issues, but pushing real candidates to give your issues a look is far better than voting for candidates who believe in your issues 100% - but have no chance of being elected.
The words "responsible" and "Clinton" have no business appearing in the same sentence! Travelgate? Watergate? Filegate?
Huh, if you guys still can't let those manufactured scandals go, the ones that failed to net a single conviction, fine or settlement from the Clintons, I wonder what you would have done if Bill Clinton had sat around on his ass for 20 minutes while the nation was under attack. Or if he had a male homosexual prostitute with zero press experience pose as a reporter and lob softball questions at news conferences. Or if he led the country to war, spending hundereds of billions of dollars and over a thousand American lives on pretenses that turned out to be bullshit.
Of course people who engages in stressful, compeditive pursuits will demonstrate more aggressive behavior than somone at rest. I want to see studies comparing video games to other compeditive, stressful activies - any sport, politics, board games.
The hookers are women. It's just fine if you off a thousand guys in the game, off a woman, that's not cool.
If this isnt the most bit of liberal flamebait ive seen in a while....
Since when is the truth flamebait? How many minimum wage jobs has Dubbya had? How many jobs has he had, period? Before becoming govenor of Texas, how many times did he have to work hard to succeed or worry about his future? Zero and Zero.
Liberals, bush won.
We know this, but since you brought up this subject: have you neocons come to terms with the fact that Gore won more votes nationally, won more votes in Florida, which would have been counted if the statewide recount was finished, and should have been president for the last four years, not Bush?
But seriously, if you are gonna stop violence in games, then film, music is to follow. What you have in the end is a society that is dressed in little rabit suits...Well at least there will be shagging still...
When all is said and done, nothing changes...
Quoting the NEW YORK TIMES
. html
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/politics/12VOTE
Study of Disputed Florida Ballots Finds Justices Did Not Cast the Deciding Vote
A comprehensive review of the uncounted Florida ballots from last year's presidential election reveals that George W. Bush would have won even if the United States Supreme Court had allowed the statewide manual recount of the votes that the Florida Supreme Court had ordered to go forward"
Anything else?
this is nothing more than HRC's continued "faking right" to intentionally swerve towards the "center" for purely political point scoring in her quest for the 2008 presidential nomination-- make no mistake, it is her goal to become "Supreme Chancellorette"!
If GTA causes me to kill and rape people, then games like Age of Empires should cause me to raise armies and invade my neighbor's houses. Call me Julius
A comprehensive review of the uncounted Florida ballots from last year's presidential election reveals
*Some* of the disputed votes in some counties, not all. If a full statewide recount had been processed, Gore would have won.
Anything else?
...that supposed banking regulation didn't have anything directly related to drugs. Looks more like a poor attempt to catch organized crime. And who was pushing for this regulation, anyway? Was it Clinton himself or some official in the Executive branch?