iPod Shuffle, Mac Mini, iLife '05, iWork

A number of announcements from the Mac World keynote this afternoon. The iPod Shuffle is pack-of-gum sized, no screen, weighs less than an ounce. Ships today, $99 for the half gig, $149 for a gig. The Mac Mini is the headless iMac... 6x6x2.5 with all the expected plugs, starting at $499. Lot's of tiger bits, spotlight, virtual folders in Mail.app. iLife '05 will ship Jan 22. iPhoto gets folders and video support. iMovie supports HD. GarageBand gets 8 channel recording. iWork includes Keynote 2, and 'Pages' the new word processor and ships the same day as iLife.

Comments

goodbye bank account

[rwurth]

wait, cheap Mac, cheap iPod. Nevermind

Re:goodbye bank account

[dourk]

Not really. Instead just one new item draing the account, I can buy them all!

Re:goodbye bank account

[ThousandStars]

What will the Apple trolls carp about now?

Ah yes, that's right. The one mouse button. It is at least getting harder to bash Apple products.

Re:goodbye bank account

[beef curtains]

Yep. In fact, here they are:

http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/

http://www.apple.com/macmini/

Re:goodbye bank account

[geeber]

Bah humbug.

All I want is an ipod mini with a frickin' built in radio. Is that so much to ask?

Looks lilke I'll have to go for the iRiver or Creative instead...

Re:goodbye bank account

[sydsavage]

Quote from the Mac Mini webpage:

And yes, Mac mini will take advantage of your two-button USB mouse with scroll-wheel and your favorite USB keyboard. Just plug them in.

Since you supply the mouse and keyboard, they've essentially nipped that perennial argument in the bud.

Re:goodbye bank account

[TheViffer]

Depends ... could be hidden costs. On the specifications page it clearly states the following.

"Memory upgrade must be performed by an Apple Authorized Service provider."

So does that void the warrenty if you crack the case open to swap out say the memory or drives?

Re:goodbye bank account

[stratjakt]

Depends how you define cheap.

You can get a half-gig flash based mp3 player for under 50 bucks.

As for the MacMini, for 499 you get: 1.25ghz G4, 256 megs of PC2700, 40 gig HDD, and a 10/100 ethernet and a 32 meg Radeon 9200.

Compare to This for 349 - oh, this comes with a 17" Flat CRT

Apple is still overpriced, but the Mac Mini is as close as they've ever come to putting it in the "regular folk" price range.

I'm just not in the market for a 2.9 lb mini-box that I can't upgrade or tinker with myself, or I'd consider one.

I really wish there was such a thing as a "barebones" mac, or that they'd open the platform up to third parties. But then, they'd face the same software challenges as MSFT, and their OS would perform about as well.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

All I want is an ipod mini with a frickin' built in radio. Is that so much to ask?

If you want a radio, why don't you buy a radio? Why does your radio have to play MP3s as well?

The radio sucks just about everywhere.

Re:goodbye bank account

[pretentiousPPC]

Whst mouse button?

This Mac is so easy that it doesn't even have or need a mouse!!

<URL:http://www.apple.com/macmini/>

Re:goodbye bank account

[javaxman]

Nope. No mouse in the box. No keyboard, either.

The box is - get this - smaller than the standard iPod box.

That's what they'll complain about. No mouse sold with the computer. Cheap-ass Apple, expecting me to already have a USB mouse... oh, wait...

Re:goodbye bank account

[bynary]

Being an Apple Authorized Service technician, I can tell you that if you try to do a memory upgrade, and you botch it, and then take it to an AASP, you will definitely not be covered under warranty. However, if you know what you're doing, by all means, go ahead. Just don't expect to get an warranty work done afterwards. Just so you know, last time I did repairs (the grapefruit iMac was just starting to show up in our service depot) Apple was still using Micron RAM. Also, unless they've changed it, Apple applies a blue paste (don't know for sure what it is) to the screws before the final assembly is made. Once you remove those screws, it strips the paste. So, if you've been inside the case, someone with a little experience will know right away.

Re:goodbye bank account

[doodlelogic]

Exactly. This is a bold move by Apple essentially because they are admitting that they may have been wrong.

On a 1980s computer, with a more limited set of functions, and a computing public with a lower level of computing knowledge, one mouse button was probably better than two.

But now, pressing Apple+click to get context menus seems a bit daft so it only makes sense to move over. And if they can't innovate in mice futher at the moment, why not let another manufacturer make the low-margin product so you can concentrate on the profitable computer itself?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

What will the Apple trolls carp about now?

How worked-up can Apple zealots get about every little criticism?

Ah yes, that's right. Apple is flawless. If you point out anything bad about it, it's not because there's something actually wrong, it's because you're bashing Apple.

At least it's good see that the Apple execs have taken their heads out of the sand, if not the Apple zealots.

Re:goodbye bank account

[sydsavage]

Yep. I was really expecting a satellite radio iPod. Well, that's the last time I get my iRumors from Lindsey Lohan's sister.

Re:goodbye bank account

[geeber]

I want a radio in my MP3 player because that is what I want. Why do you not want a radio in your MP3 player?

When I am at the gym, I listen to news on my MP3 player and when I get tired of news I listen to MP3s. I do not want to have to carry two devices. If Apple won't provide it, I'll go somerwhere else.

I'm so tired of people on slashdot assuming that since they operate in x manner, everyone else should too.

Re:goodbye bank account

[b1t r0t]

It shouldn't be any problem. In fact, that's how I got my most recent Mac, a Blue & White G3 for $110. Except in that case, someone would have had to pay me to take that stupid hockey puck of a mouse off their hands.

I like how Apple suggests on their Macmini page that programmers should get one and a KVM switch, and put it on top of their PC.

Re:goodbye bank account

[zonker]

for those that want lots of details through play-by-plays:

http://appleinsider.com/
http://schwarztech.us/keynote.shtml
http://www.macmerc.com/
http://mwsf.macnn.com/

AI's got a nifty pic with jobs holding up the (very small) box...

Re:goodbye bank account

[JHromadka]

What will the Apple trolls carp about now? Ah yes, that's right. The one mouse button. It is at least getting harder to bash Apple products.

Actually, the Mac mini doesn't even have a mouse!

Re:goodbye bank account

[jim_v2000]

You have to remember, sure you could by a nice Dell for hte same price. But people who buy a mac are buying it because it's a Mac.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

dude you'd never buy a mac no matter what. So why should Apple try to please you?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Afrosheen]

I just worked on a 20" Imac today (the new one, not the hemisphere) and noticed that alot of the contextual clicking is unnecessary. Many applications now have little arrows or extra buttons that you use contextually, as opposed to right or middle clicking things. It's been awhile since I had used a Mac so I was pleasantly surprised.

Re:goodbye bank account

[ePhil_One]

Exactly. This is a bold move by Apple essentially because they are admitting that they may have been wrong.

I had a 4 button mouse on my Mac 9 years ago, this isn't even slightly new. The key is that the Mac is still oriented towards a 1 button interface.

Oh well, trolls will be trolls...

Re:goodbye bank account

[Abalamahalamatandra]

Somewhat overpriced, but note that the Mini has a Radeon graphics processor and 32 MB of dedicated graphics RAM.

I'll just about guarantee you that the Gateway (by the way, ick!) you linked to has a crappy video processor and shared RAM for graphics.

What I wanna know is, how soon until I can run Linux on this baby and use it for a way-cool MythTV frontend?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Afrosheen]

Here's another wacky bit of info from the Shuffle page at http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/

2. Do not eat iPod shuffle.

But it looks so...delicious and flavorful.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Will Fisher]

The 512MB iPod shuffle costs $99, or in the UK, £69.

I checked the www.xe.com currency converter only to find that $99 == £52.70.

Lame beyond words.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you seriously comparing that hideous piece of shit Gateway to this Apple marvel? C'mon, chief. Wake up.

Re:goodbye bank account

[caino59]

ok, stop bitchin about it and go get a product that suits your needs!

lol, jk - what would /. be without all the pointless whining?

how's it feel to want?

karma to burn baby, karma to burn.

Re:goodbye bank account

[TheViffer]

Do you know then if there are special implications placed on the Mini that causes the warranty to void if you do open it up?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm.. That Gateway you reference does not come with Firewire, it probably does not come with DVI, and uses Intel's "shared VRAM" graphics set (as opposed to the Radeon 9200 on the iMac mini).

Oh, and it is $349 *after mail-in rebate*.

Also check out the service/support. The Gateway comes with 90 days limited support. The iMac mini comes (like any Macintosh) with 90 days telephone support and is covered for one year.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

There are two reasons that Apple doesn't ship two-button mice - one is simplicity for beginning users, the other is that it forces lazy developers to expose functionality in the UI and NOT just bury it in a contextual menu. Windows drives me batty because features are commonly implemented that way.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

I use my mac every day. I gave the one button mouse a try for three months. Then I gave up and switched to a real mouse. On the other hand, I use my powerbook every day too, and about half the time I have only the one button touchpad. One advantage of the touchpad is the proximity of the keyboard, so it doesn't seem like quite as big a hassle to have to use the command key.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Well no it was not allways an argument as older macs in 1990 did not also come with a keyboard and mouse so you could also buy any extra ones back then too and that was 15 years ago. Many performas were sold in a flexible package that did not need you to buy all apple peripherals. Anyway this is nothing new in design either there was an older mac that was almost the same as this one see this one for a photo. Only floppy drive not CD.

Re:goodbye bank account

[ollie_ob]

US prices are normally quoted without VAT, UK prices with VAT. £52.70*1.175= £61.92. £62 vs £70 - Not so lame, especially considering GBP's relative strength at the moment.

Re:goodbye bank account

[skinfitz]

Is it digitally signed?

Re:goodbye bank account

[catwh0re]

the thing is apple software is not so right mouse button dependent anyway. like in windows you can't do much without accessing the contextual menus, while in mac software it's really been designed around. (i,e programmers had to design a better interface instead of being lazy)

Re:goodbye bank account

[nadadogg]

I know, I've been putting off buying a mac for quite some time, this makes it much harder to just say no.

Re:goodbye bank account

[mindstrm]

A bold move?

OS X has never been limitd to a 1 button mouse. IN fact, every mac user I've seen who uses a mouse uses a typical multi-button optical mouse, or other exotic device. Almost nobody uses the stock 1 button mouse.

The only reason it's even mentioned here is because apple doens't supply peripherals with the mini.

You plug in a two button mouse, and it behaves as you would expect, it's not a "kludge" or anything like that. THis is nothing new, macs haven't been limited to one button mice since along, long time ago.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Selfbain]

Even if there are, we'll be seeing Mac Mini Autopsy on the internet before the week is out.

Re:goodbye bank account

[zonker]

or just buy the bluetooth adapter and go cordless without an ugly dongle hanging around on your desk (boy that almost sounds dirty)...

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

The key is that the Mac is still oriented towards a 1 button interface.

But it isn't. Even many of the iLife products require context menus (garage band is almost useless without the context menus).

Further, it doesn't help that XCode practically requires a two button mouse. This means that third parties developing software for the Mac are almost guaranteed not to be using the 1 button mouse while they develop and test the software. This, in turn, means that most third party software requires a two button mouse (or people who really like hitting command).

And, of course, my last gripe is that since apple doesn't make a multi button mouse, I have a Microsoft mouse that doesn't match my pretty system.

Re:goodbye bank account

[pyros]

Also, unless they've changed it, Apple applies a blue paste (don't know for sure what it is) to the screws before the final assembly is made

Probably just Locktite, it's used to hold the screws in tight and keep moisture from seeping through the screw-hole. Should be able to buy it anywhere and re-apply.

Re:goodbye bank account

[TrippTDF]

your post makes me think that this would be a great time for Apple to bring back the Switch campaign, as this thing is totally geared towards PC users.

Re:goodbye bank account

[zapp]

You mean how the accessories page includes "Switch from PC" items like:
- data transfer software
- KVM switch
- Office for Mac

?

but yes, I'd be suprised if they didn't put out a whole new line of commercials/ads.

Now that I can use my existing keyboard, mouse, monitor, etc, I'd get one, but instead I'll just put the $500 towards a 15" powerbook I've been drooling over.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Infamous Coward]

Hidden costs indeed. If you upgrade the Mac mini to 1GB of memory through the Apple store, the additional cost is $425! So that $500 marvel is now $925. And for OS X to really sing, mucho memory is required.

Sadly, the math is starting to break down...

Re:goodbye bank account

[doodlelogic]

Yes, a bold move, by not supplying peripherals you get to choose your own without wasting money. That way you can have one, two or even four buttons on you mouse...

Re:goodbye bank account

[ad0gg]

For $500 you can get a PC Laptop that is on sale.

Looking at the specs it comes with a dvd/cdburner with read/write cd speed at 24x. I mean come on now. I've had a 48x burner for 2 years now. Even their superdrive is slow, 4x dvd burn speed when 16x is common.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Moofie]

If you'd ever been on a phone call with your grandmother trying to explain the difference between the right and the left mouse button, you'll know...APPLE WAS NOT WRONG.

The one-button mouse is a good default. The fact that they support a richer interface for the people that want one is great.

Re:goodbye bank account

[caseih]

I'm sure it does void the warranty. But at $500, I can almost afford to not worry about the warranty anyway.

This issue is a huge downside to the mini mac (and any similar product). But on the other hand, I have less and less reason to tear into the device than I used to with my old PC.

Re:goodbye bank account

[zapp]

Actually I've found Windows to be pretty good about providing multiple ways to access things.

Usually anything in a context menu is also available through File, Edit, etc menus, or keyboard shortcuts.

Re:goodbye bank account

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

But now, pressing Apple+click to get context menus seems a bit daft so it only makes sense to move over.

I hope Apple never, ever ships a two button mouse as a default and I'll tell you why. Anyone who has ever taught a complete novice to use a computer can tell you that on button is complex enough, and two, that do different things will completely confuse someone. Software for macs is designed to work with just one button, this makes it simpler to learn and keeps developers from hiding features in a contextual menu. There is nothing preventing apps from using a second mouse button, and many do, but it is nice that they cannot rely upon it being there. They have to keep things simple. Now I know you are thinking that all of us power users can do things faster if we have more buttons, and hence more options. You are right. The difference is, on a OSX system, I get to assign those extra buttons to whatever I want. Currently my middle mouse button activates expose and my super secret fourth button maps to different, very common tasks, in each application I use regularly. If apple ever added a second button as a default, I'd need to buy a mouse with 5 buttons, and that is just getting crazy. 1 button by default makes sense. More buttons make sense, but let us power users assign them rather than application makers.

Re:goodbye bank account

[doodlelogic]

And what did you do with the one-button mouse supplied? Was it wasted?

It would have been a step too far for Apple to automatically ship with two or three-button mice, but it was a bold step in that direction to not ship a mouse at all and let you choose your own peripheral.

I would say it is a similar move to not putting a floppy drive in the iMac - it allows the customer to continue in the traditional way - or to explore using "new" devices. (CDROM was not new at the time of the iMac, but newer than two+ button mice!)

Re:goodbye bank account

[TheKidWho]

Thats because it is a slot loading variant.

Re:goodbye bank account

[drew]

sorry, but even my grandma knows the difference between right and left. in my experience, novices have a much harder time grasping the difference between single and double click than between left and right click.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad you can't eat it though.

From http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/ :
"Do not eat iPod shuffle."

Re:goodbye bank account

[doodlelogic]

I taught my grandmother to use a PC and she does fine, thank you. In fact, as she finds double-clicking difficult (arthritis) she was happier to right-click and select "open" than left-click and hit enter on the keyboard.

Re:goodbye bank account

[zonker]

i have an nec 3500 drive, does dual layer, +r-r,16x, you name it. however most of the media i use is 4x. why? because it is the most prevalent and is cheap.

Re:goodbye bank account

[daquake]

It's Ctrl-Click. Just FYI :).

Re:goodbye bank account

[Eric Savage]

It's not that the mouse has one button, as that is easy to work around, its that the UI forces you to use a mouse constantly. This interrupts your workflow as you have to stop typing and go hunting for the menu item you need, because it has no keyboard shortcut. And those that have shortcuts are inconsistent. Enabling so-called accessibility does not help much either. For this reason my iBook has a nice coating of dust on it. When they fix their UI so the mouse is only required for spatial interactions (icons, links, etc), I'll give it another shot.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Snocone]

The fact that I can't carry a few spare AAA batteries

Ahem.

" ... Extend the playback time of your iPod shuffle with the Battery Pack, powered by two AAA batteries..."

Won't work as a plain ole' USB thumb device

Ahem.

"... Store files along with your music ..." ...Closed systems ... gouge me on a replacement battery ... doesn't play OGGs...

Nobody. In. The. Target. Market. Gives. A. Flying. Fuck.

Should I keep going?

Well, you haven't actually started yet, so please.

Re:goodbye bank account

[zapp]

Well, I work at Terra Soft (makers of Yellow Dog Linux), and our lead developer just ordered one for himself as soon as it was announced.

I imagine there will be some new chipsets and whatnot to hack the kernel for... but it *will* be supported.

Stay tuned :)

Oh, and I hope you have an external TV tuner, cuz that thing has 0 pci slots.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Alan Partridge]

Access to the contextual menus is primarily gained via modifier-click just as it's always been.

Re:goodbye bank account

[kzinti]

Do not eat iPod shuffle.

I guess that kind of idiotic disclaimer is inevitable when you compare an electronic device to a pack of chewing gum in a litigious society.

Re:goodbye bank account

[mjpaci]

Apple used to ship Macs without a keyboard on most machines. It wasn't until either the beige G3s or the iMac that every Mac included a keyboard.

This was, at the time, a point PC users would harp on. Then Apple includes one and people harp about no choice. Now we're back to no keyboard. Let's see.

--Mike

Re:goodbye bank account

[ianpatt]

> Oh yeah, and the fact that, apparantly, you can listen ONLY in shuffle mode - hence the name.

Sorry, no:

"With Play in Order mode, you manage the music. If things take a turn for the predictable, never fear. Turn iPod shuffle over, flip the slider to Shuffle and mix on the go." http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/

Re:goodbye bank account

[oftheapes]

The fact that I can't carry a few spare AAA batteries http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/A ppleStore?productLearnMore=M9759G/A WRONG
AND it will work as a plain ole' USB thumb device, you just haven't bothered to research this.
you should not keep going...

Re:goodbye bank account

[rekoil]

And at the time, you couldn't use a standard PC keyboard on a Mac thanks to the ADB interface, which I'm sure was a big reason people were screaming about that so loudly. Mac keyboards were much more expensive.

The standardization to USB makes that much less of an issue today than it was back then.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong about the "shuffle only" mode.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Thundersnatch]

Look at the fine print at the bottom of the iPod Shuffle page:

"Do not eat iPod shuffle.

Nice...

Re:goodbye bank account

[bobllama]

Favorite quote from apple's site - referring to the fact that the shuffle is smaller than a pack of gum.

Do not eat iPod shuffle.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Too true. An FM radio and on the fly recording/encoding really are basic requirements. And no Ogg Vorbis support? WTF?

OK, before I read Apple's specs I thought the iPod Shuffle really looked like a good deal, but come on!

Integrated battery? Great, another disposable $100 to $150 gadget.

"Upgradable firmware enables support for future audio formats"

Hmm. There's still hope to see a fix one of the flaws then.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Migrant Programmer]

Trolls indeed.

Closed systems.

Boo hoo.

The fact that I can't carry a few spare AAA batteries.

A battery extender accessory that uses AAA batteries was also released today.

The fact that Apple will gouge me on a replacement battery when it dies (and it will).

Boo hoo. Replace it yourself.

The fact that I'll need to tie the iPod Shuffle's serial number to my PC.

WTF?

The fact that it's firmware likely isn't upgradable.

The firmware of other iPods is upgradeable, and has been upgraded several times by Apple in the past.

It probably doesn't play OGGs.

It probably doesn't play the Adlib file format either. That's about the same amount of impact on its potential user base. Before I forget: boo hoo.

Won't work as a plain ole' USB thumb device.

It sure will. You can specify how much of the space is used for music, and how much is used for other files.


Oh yeah, and the fact that, apparantly, you can listen ONLY in shuffle mode - hence the name.

Apparently you need to get a clue. There's a switch to change between Shuffle mode and Play In Order mode.

Apple's iPod shuffle website

IHBT, and I am having a very nice day, thank you.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

No audio in.

Re:goodbye bank account

[kzinti]

Who in their right mind buys memory from an OEM? Don't get on Apple's case about expensive memory, because it's true in the PC world too! Whether it's Dell, Sony, IBM, whoever - you're almost always better off dollarwise to buy your system with the least available memory, then buy the upgrade from someone else. With the exception of the occasional special deal, this has been true for as long as I can remember.

Of course, this begs the question: does the mini allow user upgrades? Can't check because the Apple site isn't responding at the moment, but that little box looks to be shut tighter than a virgin's iPod.

Re:goodbye bank account

[DrXym]

$499 is a fairly impressive price for a Mac but it's still nowhere near as cheap as a PC. The price doesn't include a monitor, speakers or even a mouse or keyboard if I read the specs correctly. Now some people will have some of those things lying around, but I wonder if for example a PC keyboard works on a Mac - I know most of them don't.

Once you add all that you need to do and a memory upgrade it isn't that special at all, probably costing you $800.

I'd still be tempted to get one once my existing G4 system packs in, but it doesn't seem like a bargain. It's certainly better than previous Apple products, but it's more like they've caught up than raced ahead of their PC counterparts.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Blue Loctite

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF?? Informative my butt! Every item in a contextual menu MUST also appear somewhere in the main menu bar. That's one of the Windows UI Guidelines. So your statement about not doing much without the context menu is absolutely false.

Every core component of Windows adheres to this guideline, and most applications do as well. This includes MS applications (like Office), even though recent MS apps are famous for being unusable and breaking Windows UI guidelines. If a program doesn't adhere to this guideline, that particular program is a piece of shit, not Windows in general.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Abalamahalamatandra]

Frontend, dude, frontend...

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

I was telling someone to right-click the other day. He looked down at his mouse.

"But I'm holding it in my right hand already"

"I mean right-click... there's two buttons, use the right-hand-side one"

"They're both on my right-hand-side... is there another of these?"

For the older generation, right-click makes no sense at all until you do this kind of mind-flip. I eventually latched on to calling it the rightmost button, but you can see why it may be confusing for someone who hasn't quite got their mind in the right mode yet.

Re:goodbye bank account

[CerebusUS]

My guess is that they do because the memory is claimed to be upgradable only at an authorized service center, but in the "box open" shots on the apple site, it's pretty clearly sitting in a DIMM slot alongside the drive bay.

I've just ordered one. Total came to $1100 after I tricked it out with:
1.42 GHz G4
512MB RAM
Superdrive
Wireless Airport Extreme / Bluetooth adapter
3 Year Warranty

Re:goodbye bank account

[snuf23]

Well I vote we make the "low end Macs have terrible video cards that are not upgradeable" our new, exciting argument.

I applaud Apple for finally releasing a Mac other than the PowerMac which doesn't have a built in monitor. I however am saddened that the video card (as was the case with the new iMac) is outdated and not upgradeable.

So I would still need to keep my PC for games. (ok now it's time for the other troll to jump on with the "No you don't! Just get a Mac Mini and a game console!" argument.)

Re:goodbye bank account

[eMartin]

Some might argues that this is what makes Apple better.

Microsoft and the Linux people give you a hundred ways to get to the same place. Some people claim that freedom is great, but most just get confused.

Apple figures out where you'll want to go and the best way to get there.

Sure, some people complain about the lack of options, but that's often after they've already gotten their job done, and they have nothing better to do.

Re:goodbye bank account

[lamz]

On a 1980s computer, with a more limited set of functions, and a computing public with a lower level of computing knowledge, one mouse button was probably better than two.

Good point. There once was a time when you had to explain to people what double-clicking meant. (And if they had an Atari ST, they had to learn to double-click really really quickly.)

I would add that the day it made sense to have a two-button mouse over a one-button mouse was the day that contextual menus were invented, because that was the first time that a consistent meaning was applied to the second button. Not to pick on my poor old Atari ST, but the uses for the second mouse button varied so much between applications that it was more trouble to try and figure out what it did than use it.

Notes for MS Bigots: The Atari ST shipped with a two-button mouse years before PCs even had mice. IBM first introduced contextual menus with OS/2 Warp.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Prod_Deity]

"It probably doesn't play OGGs. Won't work as a plain ole' USB thumb device. Should I keep going?"
No, you shouldn't.
This is Apple's music player !
If you want something to play .ogg, go buy a compatable .ogg player.
If you want a USB thmb drive, buy one.
Since this (and the mini Mac) is aimed for the people that don't have 3 jobs and go to school that can get a good discount, these products are perfect for breakthrough Apple switchers, like myself.
Now, if only Uncle Sam would send my check sooner....

Re:goodbye bank account

[edgar_is_good]

Note that machine comes with a CD-ROM. The CDRW/DVD drive is an extra $50. The apple is still more expensive, but comes with the mac iLife programs, which are worth the price to many people.

Re:goodbye bank account

[nine-times]

What will the Apple trolls carp about now?

Oh, they'll find something. "Why doesn't the iPod shuffle have a screen? 1GB? That's not enough space!" or, "They don't ship Mac minis with keyboards by default?! What am I supposed to do without a keyboard?!"

Trolls don't need good reasons to carp. In fact, if you have a good reason to complain, it's kinda not a troll.

Re:goodbye bank account

[SlamMan]

Actually, about all of them do. I'v never run across a keyboard that wouldn't work on a (USB) mac. The windows key automatically maps to do be a Command key, and off you go.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Cy Guy]

If you upgrade the Mac mini to 1GB of memory through the Apple store, the additional cost is $425!

Yeah, that seems out of line, but the upgrade to 512M is only $75. So instead of getting one $599 plus the Gig upgrade for total of $1,024, get two $499 models with the 512M option and cluster them! In effect a dual G4 machine with a Gig of RAM for $1,149!

Alternatively, you could maybe just upgrade to 512M, then get a 512M thumbdrive (or iPod Shuffle!) for much less than the additional $350 they want to go from 512M to 1G internal. Set it up as RAM drive and you might be able to get some of the speed of full Gig of internal RAM for $200 less.

My one annoyance about the base configuration is lack of WiFi out of the box, yet they include a 56k Modem. I wish you could opt for WiFi instead of the modem, instead of paying $75 to get the AirPort card. Anyone know where I can get a list of compatible USB WiFi adapters that will work with it?

Re:goodbye bank account

[AtrN]

Apple make a lot of money on memory upgrades. That's obvious since they spec most machines with, the totally unrealistic, 256MB.

The MiniMac's 512MB option is more reasonably priced and with that much RAM OS X is quite okay for many things. 1GB is nicer but 512MB is okay. I've been running a Cube (500MHz G4) with that much RAM for a long time and it was adequate. I now have a dual 2GHz G5 with 2GB RAM which is a lot more adequate :)

Still, for home user's the MiniMac looks like a winner. Other than OS X Apple need a real differentiator and the size (or lack of it) is a big win. Lots of people don't like ugly boxes cluttering up the place (not me, I've got a bench full of PCs [FreeBSD]). For instance I showed my mother the previous iMac (Luxo Jr style) and even she, who is big on interior design and home building, said she'd have one because it looked nice. And if she can accept it a lot of others would too.

Re:goodbye bank account

[lamz]

I know you're probably joking, but could you build it in a 6.5" by 2" case?

Re:goodbye bank account

[snuf23]

I think the point was that this is the first Mac where you don't HAVE to get the one button mouse with the system. So if you want one you get one - or if you prefer more buttons you get a different mouse.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Bleh.. two button mouse.. I have a mouse with FIVE buttons and a scroll wheel!!

Re:goodbye bank account

[lack1uster]

Not that I disagree with you, but garageband doesn't have context menus (or I haven't found them). Please describe where a context menu lies in garageband.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Golias]

My Mac mini order would have gone through by now if you bastards were not slashdotting the store to gawk at the specs!

Somebody hurry up and start an EQ2 vs. WoW flamewar or something, so the Apple Store servers will free up!

Re:goodbye bank account

[grahamlee]

$499 is a fairly impressive price for a Mac but it's still nowhere near as cheap as a PC. The price doesn't include a monitor, speakers or even a mouse or keyboard if I read the specs correctly. Now some people will have some of those things lying around, but I wonder if for example a PC keyboard works on a Mac - I know most of them don't.

Any USB keyboard will work - I use a happy hacking mkII. But I really wanted to address the price point - I don't think the lack of peripherals (and hence the additional, slightly-hidden cost) is going to have iSteve crying in his cornflakes. In fact I think that's the point - put the absolute lowest possible price Apple can onto the board, to make it initially look attractive. This is about increasing market share; the system is actually a painfully boring setup. With that in mind, I'm surprised Apple didn't try to loss lead on it by charging, say, $100 less.

Re:goodbye bank account

[jaxdahl]

Lack of software options -- though for many non-gamers, iMovie, iPhoto, etc will work for those people.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Phillup]

The MacMini is geared towards the people that buy the $349 POS you just pointed out and realize that the only usable parts are the display, mouse and keyboard. (at best)

;-)

Let's face it.

You can not compare a computer NOT running OSX to one that DOES.

If you want a piece of crap, buy a piece of crap.

I really wish there was such a thing as a "barebones" mac, or that they'd open the platform up to third parties. But then, they'd face the same software challenges as MSFT, and their OS would perform about as well.

And stop trying to drag everyone else down to your level.

Re:goodbye bank account

[PierceLabs]

No I'm afraid you're wrong here. A mac uses a normal USB keyboard and mouse just like EVERY other PC out there. You can even go buy Microsoft's latest expensive mouse/keyboard combo for $80 bucks and it will plug right in and work without you even installing drivers.

The memory upgrade will cost you $77 bucks if you pull the 256 and replace it with a 512 as the Mac uses the same mac that you use - PC2700 which is both plentiful and cheap.

Re:goodbye bank account

[jdray]

Yes, but the problem with that was PC keyboards at the time cost about $25 and a Mac keyboard cost $80. It's one thing to have to go pick up a $25 item to make your new computer work, but $80 seems like spending money you weren't expecting.

Re:goodbye bank account

[LetterJ]

"I like how Apple suggests on their Macmini page that programmers should get one and a KVM switch, and put it on top of their PC. "

That's pretty much the first thing I thought when I heard about this thing. I don't have room in my existing setup for another full-blown PC, but this thing could be tucked just about anywhere and give me another platform for working.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Angostura]

Strange, one thing about the Mac UI is the ubiquity and consistency of keyboard shortcuts. MS Word has a few commands with no shortcut - which annoys me, but most well written apps are replete with them.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Custard]

If you upgrade the Mac mini to 1GB of memory through the Apple store, the additional cost is $425!

Maybe it has a single sodimm slot, so you have to use laptop memory and only one stick of it? That would explain the ridiculous upgrade price.

Re:goodbye bank account

[yorkpaddy]

FLASH MEMORY CAN'T BE USED FOR SWAP. You will quickly destroy the flash memory (1 million write limit). The bandwidth wouldn't be near the same as it would for ddr-ram either.

Re:goodbye bank account

[kisrael]

I hope Apple never, ever ships a two button mouse as a default and I'll tell you why. Anyone who has ever taught a complete novice to use a computer can tell you that on button is complex enough, and two, that do different things will completely confuse someone.

I realize "market penetration" of computers isn't as complete as I'd like to think, but I think it's stupid to always gear computers towards the LCD of the utter n00b.

Now I know you are thinking that all of us power users can do things faster if we have more buttons, and hence more options. You are right. The difference is, on a OSX system, I get to assign those extra buttons to whatever I want.

I purposefully avoid getting dependent on anything too far afield from the "standard" of 2 buttons and a scrollwheel, or little cutesy UI plugins; I find a lot of time I'm having to get around someone else's machine, and if I'm too dependent on the wackiness of my setup, I can't do as much there...the benefit of setting up as a "power user" is more than outweighed by that.

Plus, all these buttons on mice...on a lot of 'em I find it too easy to press the extra buttons, just where my fingers naturally rest.

Re:goodbye bank account

[boobert]

Don't forget the $79 for shipping.

oh and the $49 for anti virus software.

Oh yeah and I would suggest the security package at least another $49

hmmm that'll be $526 also that's 349 after a $150 rebate.

Suck it PC user.

I can get away with that I use to be one ;)

Re:goodbye bank account

[blixel]

Oh well, trolls will be trolls... ...and Mac apologists will be Mac apologists.

(I'm a Mac user BTW. But the 1 button mouse is stupid.)

Re:goodbye bank account

[kisrael]

I would add that the day it made sense to have a two-button mouse over a one-button mouse was the day that contextual menus were invented, because that was the first time that a consistent meaning was applied to the second button.

Excellent point.
And the mouse that came with my 386, pre-Windows PC, doubley so, because there wasn't a consistent GUI, just weird graphical one-offs and character mode apps, and overall the use of the mouse was terribly incosistent. Coherent and consistent GUIs are a Good Thing...its taken the web a long time to get similar paradigms and cliches going.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Custard]

Maybe it has a single sodimm slot

Oops, I stand corrected. (from this page)

Still, it's essentially a laptop without a screen or a battery. I'd rather invest in a laptop, which I could use at home with an external monitor OR as a portable laptop. It is cheap, though :-)

Re:goodbye bank account

[rot26]

When I am at the gym, I listen to news on my MP3 player and when I get tired of news I listen to MP3s.

So record the news as an MP3 and listen to it later.

Guffaw.

Re:goodbye bank account

[MadChicken]

Excellent observation! Especially when it comes with GarageBand. I suppose you are going to need to spring for something else if you want the multitrack recording anyway... But I can see the iMic as another required accessory.

Re:goodbye bank account

[doodlelogic]

Excellent point.

Indeed it was an excellent point. For which he got modded interesting, and I, troll.

Love this place really.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Golias]

The mini uses the same ATI card as the latest eMac, which I can tell you first-hand handles World of Warcraft rather well.

Since we know there are no other games for the Mac (*ducks*), that should do the trick for the near future.

If you play a lot of games, I wouldn't tell you to get a Mac mini and a game console... I'd tell you to get a Mac mini and a KVM switch, and keep playing your twitch shooters on your uber-1337 game PC.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

GarageBand does not require the use of right-click at all. I've been using it since its inception with a 2 button mouse but have never right-clicked. just double-click the track to get the plugins instead of right-clicking, it's quicker.

and i think you mean the control key, not command.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

you mean the control key? The command key doesn't invoke any sort of menu.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Moofie]

Look at all the icons in your system tray. Take an inventory of all the functions that are available with the right click, and then all the things that happen with a left click. I've been using computers for 20 years, and I not infrequently have to try both.

This is poor, poor design. Yes, it's poor design by the coders, but it's abetted by the availability of a right mouse button. Too many UI designers use that as a crutch. Don't know where a function should go? Sure, put it in a contextual menu.

With the Mac, all contextual menus are optional. I simply don't use them very much. I use middle-click for new tabs in Safari, and I like the scroll wheel, but neither of those features are critical to making the operating system function.

Try to run Windows without a right mouse button. It's possible, but MUCH harder.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Or spend the money for an Apple Keyboard. Why an Apple Keyboard? Chances are your current USB keyboard doesn't have USB pass-thru, and you'll have both USB ports tied up with keyboard and mouse. Oops!!

Re:goodbye bank account

[km5gn]

Now could someone show me how to get the output from this mini mac into my 17" imac. I'd be happy to turn it into a monitor running off of this...

Re:goodbye bank account

[hawk]

Actually I've found Windows to be pretty good about providing multiple ways to access things.

Yep [insert nod here].

You can access it, your Uncle Joe can access it, that kid in Siberia gathering credit card numbers can access it, . . . :)

hawk

Re:goodbye bank account

[devbone]

Perhaps they are chasing the wackiest consumer warning label award for 2005. Story

Re:goodbye bank account

[Infamous Coward]

Who in their right mind buys memory from an OEM?

Err...someone who doesn't want to void the warranty? My post was in reply to one that noted that the specs page says:

"Memory upgrade must be performed by an Apple Authorized Service provider.".

Are there "authorized service providers" that do not price gouge like the apple store? I would very much like 1GB of memory but there is no way I would pay these prices for it.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Frobozz0]

Good points!

My favorite windows UI quirk is how every application out there seems to duplicate every menu item in an icon stop. Because, yeah, it really helps me to see a thousand little indecipherable icons that have commands that also show up in the menu.

Oh-- and let's not forget how you restart a PC (not that you have to do it much)! Click "start." Select "shut down." Now select "restart." Yeah, I would have found that.

Re:goodbye bank account

[cayenne8]

"Yeah, that seems out of line, but the upgrade to 512M is only $75. So instead of getting one $599 plus the Gig upgrade for total of $1,024, get two $499 models with the 512M option and cluster them! In effect a dual G4 machine with a Gig of RAM for $1,149!"

Yeah...at $499+ each, I was thinking this would be a perfect vehicle to cluster a few of these things together. Is there anyway of doing this withing OSX, or would you need to reformat them all to Linux?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Xyde]

That $150 cheaper PC only comes with a CD-ROM (as opposed to a DVD/CD-RW), crap integrated intel video (as opposed to a DX8 compliant ATi Radeon 9200/w 32MB Ram), no firewire (the Mac Mini has it), also the mac has DVI, S Video, composite and VGA outputs (as opposed to standard old VGA). It also can't take internal bluetooth and probably 802.11g, and it's also fucking ugly. It weighs 23lbs (as opposed to 2.9).

I'll give you, the PC comes with a monitor and has an 80GB hard drive but honestly, the mac is clearly a better deal.

Re:goodbye bank account

[mindstrm]

What software are you using? Anything I've used almost universally has consistent, direct keyboard shortcuts.

The exception would be some of the quick ports of open source stuff.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Thorkytel Ant-Head]

Um, that picture is fake.

Re:goodbye bank account

[EvolutionKills]

Is anybody else thinking about how cool it would be to put one of these in the glovebox and have a compact car computer running OSX for ~700 clams?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

"Troll"? "Funny"? Sheesh, moderators on crack again.

All digital audio players I've ever owned have had a radio. It's 1 dollar worth of extra components for a basic and very useful, if not essential, feature!

Re:goodbye bank account

[Ashen]

I still like to right click on files and links.

The middle button is excellent to set to invoke exposé (the F9 one).

Re:goodbye bank account

[MtViewGuy]

Apple's ad said:

And yes, Mac mini will take advantage of your two-button USB mouse with scroll-wheel and your favorite USB keyboard. Just plug them in.

Except for one thing: I don't know of any keyboard intended for PC compatible machines I've seen at electronics stores that uses a USB connection to the computer. Maybe if Apple offered a USB to PS/2 keyboard adapter dongle, that would be another thing.

Anyway, hasn't Apple actually supported the scroll wheel and at least two-button mouse natively in MacOS X for quite a while?

Re:goodbye bank account

[onion2k]

Apple US website: 2. Do not eat iPod shuffle.
Apple UK website: 2. Do not chew iPod shuffle.

Do Americans not have the word 'chew'?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Note for lamz: Although distributed by IBM, OS/2 warp was predominantly programmed by Microsoft.

Re:goodbye bank account

[RevAaron]

But not always. I've used plenty of apps that require a double click, having different options available in a context menu than in the regular menus. Mind you, you can still bring up a context menu with the little context menu button on a windows keyboard, but I've also used apps where you couldn't tab-navigate to the item to use the context button. It's mostly moot since everyone on windows has a right mouse button, but working with kiosks, etc and other situations where I only have one button have led me to occasionally curse poorly designed windows apps...

Re:goodbye bank account

[emilymildew]

Were you using Panther? Keyboard shortcuts are much more universal across the OS in Panther than in previous versions.

I rarely use the mouse, and I don't find that my workflow is interrupted when I do. What specific programs / tasts were you having problems with?

Re:goodbye bank account

[rho]

I've got 10.3 running on a clamshell iBook with 128MB RAM. 300mhz G3. It runs pretty well, considering. All it runs is Safari, basically--it's the living-room computer that my wife uses to browse message boards during commercials or whatever.

For most users, 512MB would be plenty. I'm doing fairly intensive Web development (Photoshop, BBEdit, Illustrator, etc.) on a 667mhz G4 with 768MB RAM. Works just fine.

Re:goodbye bank account

[eclectic4]

Um, no CD-burner in that Gateway either.

And remember, it still runs Windows. I consider that a negative. The Mac Mini comes pre-installed with Mac OS X and iLife. That alone makes even your hard searched POS machine not worth the page it was rendered on.

Re:goodbye bank account

[rob_squared]

"Do not eat iPod shuffle." Yet it makes no mention not to eat the Mac Mini... Can you say; lawsuit?!?!

Re:goodbye bank account

[hawk]

It wasn't until either the beige G3s or the iMac that every Mac included a keyboard.

You left out "again". Further back, they all came with keyboards.

hawk

Re:goodbye bank account

[Moofie]

There are just as many ways to access things on MacOS. The difference is, at least way is well designed, accessible, and consistent. That's only very occasionally true with Windows.

Many options is not always good design.

Re:goodbye bank account

[goates]

Are you sure about that? I am pretty sure that the 7 year old pre-G3 Macs my dad's company bought included keyboards in the box. As well as most, if not all, of the Macs before that.

Re:goodbye bank account

[juiceCake]

I know, I've been putting off buying a mac for quite some time, this makes it much harder to just say no.

Still too pricy for me here in Canada: Mac Mini upgraded to 512 MB RAM, 80 GB HD, Superdrive, AirPort Extreme Card - Only $1024.00 + tax. Unbelievable.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Moofie]

You like that. That's cool. My grandma doesn't. Apple serves both your needs.

Re:goodbye bank account

[bluekanoodle]

You must be shopping at Bob's Old & Crappy Computers Parts 'r' Us then, because Lord knows I have a hard time find a keyboard that's NOT USB

Re:goodbye bank account

[LordOfYourPants]

Brilliant! Best joke I've read here in weeks. I wish I had mod points.

Re:goodbye bank account

[nadadogg]

Sorry man, I always give my Canadian friends shit about their money being worthless, but you deserve hot hot mac love as well.
I guess I can empty my pockets of change and mail it to you, that should cover about half of it at the current rate, right? ;)

Re:goodbye bank account

[Ath]

"Do not eat iPod shuffle."

I guess that kind of idiotic disclaimer is inevitable when you compare an electronic device to a pack of chewing gum in a litigious society.

It could just be ... ummm ... a joke. Ya think? Huh? Maybe?

Re:goodbye bank account

[juiceCake]

Oh well, trolls will be trolls...

And some people just have a different perspective and aren't, in anyway, trolling or being a troll. How was his statement trolling?

Oh well, fanatics will be fanatics...

Re:goodbye bank account

[generic-man]

We do have the word "chew" in America, and we say "Chew gum" instead of "Eat gum." It seems strange that the US version implies that it is not unacceptable to chew on the iPod shuffle.

The next time you are in the US, expect to see a lot of iPod shuffles with teeth marks in them.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Bio]

What does it say on that iPod shuffle page?

"What will it play next? ... New Order"

I want one! The Temptation is too big. Apple was Touched by the Hand of God when they designed that device. I have True Faith that I will not Regret buying one. No more Blue Monday! Having a Fine Time ...

Re:goodbye bank account

[hawk]

ADB predates USB significantly, but was a step in the same direction . . .

hawk

Re:goodbye bank account

[Moofie]

So different users have different levels of affinity for complicated computer tasks. Stop the presses.

The one mouse button is an explicit design choice, that Apple makes for good human interface reasons. They also don't force you to comply with that design. Would you please explain to me what's wrong with that?

Re:goodbye bank account

[juiceCake]

Anyone who has ever taught a complete novice to use a computer can tell you that on button is complex enough, and two, that do different things will completely confuse someone.

I don't dismiss that this was your experience but it hasn't been mine. If a person can learn how to use the multiple buttons that make up what we refer to as a keyboard I've found they usually don't have any problem figuring out how to use more than one button on a mouse. Mileage varies.

Re:goodbye bank account

[skinfitz]

Notes for MS Bigots: The Atari ST shipped with a two-button mouse years before PCs even had mice.

Note for inaccurate posters - it was actually ten months, the ST being released in January '85, Windows 1.0 being released in November '85. And that was just Windows. There were mice in use on PC's before that.

I know your type, and my Amiga kicks the arse of your ST. :oP

Re:goodbye bank account

[Squareball]

Look at all of us fat asses in the US! We obviously don't CHEW our food! ;)

Re:goodbye bank account

[MsGeek]

Chances are your current USB keyboard doesn't have USB pass-thru, and you'll have both USB ports tied up with keyboard and mouse. Oops!!

Two words: USB Hub.

Finally Apple makes the iStuff iCanAfford. Kudos, Steve.

PS: The ones sweating the introduction of the Mac Mini the most are VIA. Finally a good quality version of the bitty box. Goodbye Mini-ITX/EPIA!

Re:goodbye bank account

[rbgaynor]

That and a case mode where someone tries to squeeze a PC motherboard into one of these 8)

Re:goodbye bank account

[feldsteins]

I think the case for one-button mice is a good one. THE real use for the second button is contextual menus. Why do you need a contextual menu? The only good reason is for when the standard function is too far away in the interface to be convenient. The BAD reason is when there IS no way to access that function in the standard interface.

So why is a context-menu function inferior to a standard interface one (presuming that it's not out of reach)? Because context menu items give no visual cue to their existence, other interface items do.

Now, professionals with really huge displays for whom that standard control truly IS often too far away to be convenient should be offered a second mouse button. They need it. Most others don't.

So I've always said: Apple should at least provide a two-button for pro-model machines. I'm fine with one-button models for consumer boxes with the option to "upgrade."

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

The Magnuson-Moss warranty act of 1975 prevents them from voiding the warranty if you open the case and upgrading the memory. This law can only overlooked if opening the case poses a hazard to the public (you get electrocuted changing the ram on a machine which should be unplugged and grounded in the first place) or if the memory upgrade causes the machine to malfunction. If the sound quit working after installing the memory, they are legally required to correct it. However, for extra protection, I would buy memory from people who warranty it such as Kingston, corsair or the like.

Re:goodbye bank account

[AltaMannen]

"They're both on my right-hand-side... is there another of these?"

Maybe if you said use the button on the right side of the mouse it would be clearer, not the right-hand side (which is confusing because that sounds like you're talking about the actual hand). Or just saying left mouse button and right mouse button (after explaining that the thing is called a mouse) would be fairly clear.

Re:goodbye bank account

[drbart]

What if you just want to crack the case to look at how beautiful it is inside?? Will that void the warranty too?

Re:goodbye bank account

[mjpaci]

My memory is hazy. However, I do know the following:

Mac 128K came with keyboard (RJ-11 like connection)
Mac SE that I purchased in 1989 did not.
Perfomas did.
High-end (9100, 9500, 8100, 8500) did not.
20th Anniversary did.

I remember buying keyboards separately for a number of business models. 7100s and the like.

Let's say this: the cosumer models probably came as a full package with keyboard. The business/pro models more than likely did not.

I was speaking in generalities which will get you hung (hanged?) on Slashdot! :)

--Mike

Re:goodbye bank account

[Moofie]

Timbuktu? VNC?

Re:goodbye bank account

[hawk]

Do Americans not have the word 'chew'?

And we've been bitter about it a long time; it was high on our list of grievances:

taxation without representation, restrictions on the flow of coinage, useful and necessary words witheld from the language, quartering of troops.

The Boston Tea Party was actually plan B. However, the inability to ch* the cookies we had to eat with our tea (as you guys witheld bisc* from the language, too) forced our hand. :)

hawk

Re:goodbye bank account

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

If a person can learn how to use the multiple buttons that make up what we refer to as a keyboard I've found they usually don't have any problem figuring out how to use more than one button on a mouse.

Wow, that is certainly not my experience. In dealing with complete novices (who are usually elderly or children these days) I have found that user's often click both buttons under the assumption that both will do the same thing, or simply because they do not remember which button to push. Many users get very confused when contextual menus appear, when they are just trying to click on an icon to run the program. I am very surprised that you have not run into this, it seems to be a universal issue for both adult educators and tech support personnel that I have worked with.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Eric Savage]

I'm actually not sure what feline it was, I got it in late summer 2003 I think. The programs I was using were the standard ones that came with it, word processing and such (I'm not holding OpenOffice's poor port against it). I was also greatly perturbed by the poor tabbing in forms on web pages in both Safari and Mozilla.

The iBooks lack of Fkeys was also a pretty poor design decision I thought, I wish I had bothered to take a close look at the keyboard before I bought it.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Amiga Trombone]

I use my powerbook every day too, and about half the time I have only the one button touchpad. One advantage of the touchpad is the proximity of the keyboard, so it doesn't seem like quite as big a hassle to have to use the command key.

Yeah, I do the same thing with my iBook. Still, I'd rather have a 3-button mouse on it.

It'd be nice if Apple would design their notebooks so the mouse/touch-pad assembly were user removable, allowing 3rd parties to market replacements. I realize I could get an external mouse for it, but toting that around would be more aggravation than it's worth.

Oh, well. Maybe someday.

Re:goodbye bank account

[falcon5768]

considering the size its most likely the same reason they dont want you to do laptop repairs.... 9/10 a typical non techy user will fubar it. People screw up iMacs and Desktop PCs all the time and in the case of iMacs they CLEARLY spell out the way to do it and people still force the DIMM in the wrong way or break pins.

Re:goodbye bank account

[evangellydonut]

yeah, take out the CRT (-80), add a combo drive (+45), the cheapest 1 year warranty option (+60), and a "real OS" (ie XP-Pro, +80) and you have in your hands a big-fugly tower for $554 (and the $100 mail-in rebate that's not always redeemed or always avilable).

the Mac mini, plus 80GB HD upgrade (+$50), is $549

So your point is?

Re:goodbye bank account

[rodgerd]

The fact that the iPod Shuffle is rubbish?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Srsen]

Hidden costs in-indeed. Don't forget the $2500 you're going to drop 6 months from now on a dual G5 after you're hooked on Mac OS X crack and need a box with some stones.

Re:goodbye bank account

[kevcol]

sorry, but even my grandma knows the difference between right and left.

Well of course. But I can tell you from my experience that teaching the older generation about contextual menus and making the lessons stick can be difficult; your grandmother may have done just fine, but I've taught many more than just one who've had problems dealing with technology. And on top of that, if an oldster has severe arthritis, or the Parkinson's "shakies" as I have seen, a 2+ button mouse can be literally a pain.

Re:goodbye bank account

[ePhil_One]

How was his statement trolling?

He was harping about now finally Mac users can use two button mice, as if it were never an option before. Either he was clueless about the Macs evolution over the past 15 years, or he was trolling. I made no statement about the superiority and/or inferiority of Apple'd decision or of 1 (apple), 2 (Microsoft), 3 (Unix), or even 4 (my own choice at the time, which was overkill) button mice.

Oh well, fanatics will be fanatics...

Yeah, thats it, anyone with a different perspective is a fanatic. Or is it because I used a Mac 9 years ago? Just beause some people who use/used the Mac are fanatics doesn't mean everybody is.

Oh well, A--hats will be A--hats...

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

$100 for 512M and no screen. There are much better products on the market.

Re:goodbye bank account

[happyemoticon]

Your sarcasm has exposed the genius of what Apple is doing. They're not even hiding it anymore. They're targeting the PC user full-bore: you just swap out your hulking Dell ATX case, and replace it with your new, tiny Mac.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget Apple Remote Desktop.

Re:goodbye bank account

[nuggetman]

Now could someone show me how to get the output from this mini mac into my 17" imac.

Not unless someone has soldered something together that allows an external video input to go to the LCD of the iMac.

Why would you want to step down from an iMac G5 to a G4 Mac mini? Or even a G4 iMac to a Mac mini.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

What about the stacks of problems with iBooks - logic board failures en masse (nearly starting a lawsuit), hinge problems, screen issues, chipped cases... on and on.

Then again, it's only to be expected. Apple iBooks are produced by a Taiwanese ODM, just like millions upon millions of PC notebooks. Same components, same low quality.

And yet Mac fans witter on about build quality. Ludicrous :-)

Re:goodbye bank account

[at_slashdot]

I. Am. In. The. Market. And. I. Give. A. Fuck. Or. Two.

Re:goodbye bank account

[JudgeFurious]

I got my most recent Mac for free. A PowerMac G4 Sawtooth that had a dead power supply. They didn't want to pay for the replacement part so they basically gave me the dead system.

Take one ATX power supply, cut four wires, splice two of them in to the other two and shazam! Free Mac.

Re:goodbye bank account

[worm eater]

What will the Apple trolls carp about now?

Oh, I don't know... no audio in?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup

Re:goodbye bank account

[JudgeFurious]

The answer is I'm sure "Yes"

About 13 minutes after one of these things leaves the store someone, somewhere is going to void the warranty on it.

I just hope we get some good pictures out of the poor things "violation".

Re:goodbye bank account

[TCQuad]

Most people who currently have PCs and are looking to *switch* to Macintosh already have monitors. This is a cheaper Mac they can use with their current accessories (keyboard, mouse, monitor).

Re:goodbye bank account

[The Dark P]

What! why is this modded insightful?
It's just plain wrong
The only available drive is the CDRW/DVD drive.
shame on you mods for not picking him up, and shame on you edgar for not doing your research.

Re:goodbye bank account

[porcupine8]

I think you may be confusing "target market" with "everybody in the entire world who might possibly buy one."

Re:goodbye bank account

[The Dark P]

My Profuse apologies Edgar, i appear to have done you a misjustice.
You are quite clearly talking about the POS PC and not the Mac Mini.
I am sure you are a brilliant intelect and a good researcher.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Jeremi]

IN fact, every mac user I've seen who uses a mouse uses a typical multi-button optical mouse, or other exotic device. Almost nobody uses the stock 1 button mouse.

If nobody uses it, that should be a hint to Apple that 1-button mice aren't what people want.

You plug in a two button mouse, and it behaves as you would expect.

Not quite -- try getting your app to support drag-and-drop via the right mouse button. As far as I (or TrollTech) can tell, there is simply no way to do it under MacOS/X.

(and before someone replies saying that there is no reason to ever need right-mouse-drag, let me simply assert that I do have a good reason for it)

Re:goodbye bank account

[tgibbs]

Exactly. This is a bold move by Apple essentially because they are admitting that they may have been wrong.

Not really. After all, they weren't wrong. For new computer users, a single-button mouse is much less intimidating and easier to learn. Apple has supported multibutton mice for years, although they haven't sold them. But these new low-cost Macs are intended for relatively sophisticated users who will be configuring their own systems.

Re:goodbye bank account

[reflective recursion]

I would get one myself, but only if it can run Final Cut Pro and is suitably powered for video editing. Then it would be the ideal little device for on-the-spot editing, etc.

Re:goodbye bank account

[drsmithy]

I imagine there will be some new chipsets and whatnot to hack the kernel for... but it *will* be supported.

I doubt it. It's almost certainly using an iBook logic board.

Re:goodbye bank account

[cyxxon]

I do not know about the USA, but in Germany, even if the PC has some sealing sticker over the screws on the back, opening the case for "typical maintenance" like adding ram or something and thereby breaking this seal is not breaking the warranty. If the systems fails after that, you better bring it back in its the original state or the OEM will just tell you it is the added part's fault, but the warranty in itself is not void.

Re:goodbye bank account

[worm eater]

Well, let's see... for $499 (after rebates) you can get a comparable Dell with 512mb RAM, a 17" CRT (which many people already have), NO CD burner, WinXP Home, and WordPerfect Office (which no one wants).

For $574 you can get the Mac Mini, with RAM upgraded to 512mb, a CD burner, a powerful OS (that's easy to use), and iLife. Also, you don't have to worry about malware, your computer is compact, silent, and aesthetically pleasing...

Sure, OS X may not really "sing" on this rig, but it is more than adequate for the target audience. Sounds like a good deal to me...

Re:goodbye bank account

[SkipRosebaugh]

That's not $349, that's $499 with a $100 rebate and a $50 rebate. That's two forms which you must fill out, send in, and wait 10 weeks for your money. And then you're stuck with Windows on a Gateway. Enjoy.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't get on Apple's case about expensive memory, because it's true in the PC world too!

So, just because other OEM's are shady, it should be ok for Apple to be too? You really agree with this reasoning?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Llywelyn]

What is this, the "if I don't know the answer I'll just make stuff up" school of trolling?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Doctor O]

They might have been expensive, but they were MUCH better than what was even available for PCs at that time. I used the same keyboard from my Quadra until ADB went away. Heavy quality, so to speak, with infinitely variable height setting and a very nice typing 'feel'. Nice sound, too, and almost impossible to break. A coworker of mine accidently run over one with a forklift after it fell out of a window from the second floor and it still worked afterwards. Okay, I made that up, but the second floor part is true. My boss hadn't even noticed me throwing it out, so I don't want to make him suspicious if he reads this.

Oh, wait.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Ark42]

What a waste. Just get OSX VNC and set it to startup automatically. You can enable SSH too. I'm starting to develop programs for OSX as well as Windows now, and desiging my code such that the majority of the code is in a cross-platform library that I can just SSH in and compile for OSX, then later stick a tiny Cocoa GUI on top of.

Re:goodbye bank account

[AddressException]

Therefore you are not in the target market.

Re:goodbye bank account

[dwightk]

you don't need 1 GB for OS X... I would recommend the 512 upgrade though, and definitely get the Apple Care

Re:goodbye bank account

[Llywelyn]

Buy 1 GB of RAM.

Go to store.

Get it installed.

Easy.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Magic5Ball]

http://www.apple.com/macmini/design.html

It's a single regular 200-pin DDR slot.

Re:goodbye bank account

[kd5ujz]

I have seen a lot of elementary schools ( grammar schools) use macs. Teachers hate them ,because they are used to IBM clones, but its easier to teach a a 6-7 year old how to use it when they can barley remember right from left.

Re:goodbye bank account

[juiceCake]

Actually the exchange rate is quite favourable these days unless you're an exporter. Apple, like many companies, prices differently in different markets. This thing is far too expensive for the level of performance. I find the GUI slow in the iMac G5. This would be worse.

Re:goodbye bank account

[at_slashdot]

Excuse me Mr. Economist. How would you define the "target market"? Would it be: "people who buy flash players"? Than yes, I am in the market.

Re:goodbye bank account

[mifunevalentine]

Why not? It's an Apple!

Re:goodbye bank account

[Trillan]

Jaguar performs perfectly well with 128MB on a G4 @ 800MHz. I discovered this when a memory module in our build machine died. It was not as fast as once I upgraded it to 384 MB, but it wasn't bad.

Not sure about Panther. Not because I don't use it, but because that machine wasn't upgraded.

Re:goodbye bank account

[afish40]

Scroll wheels and multi-button mice have worked on the Mac long before OS X.

Re:goodbye bank account

[juiceCake]

Well I apologize, but I just don't see how it is more than just his opinion and perspective rather than trolling. You disagree. That's fine. And the fanatics thing was meant to be ridiculous, much like your troll statement is... Happy to be an A--hat in your world. It is truly a compliment not to mention not a surprise. Cheers mate.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Skynyrd]

$499 is a fairly impressive price for a Mac but it's still nowhere near as cheap as a PC. The price doesn't include a monitor, speakers or even a mouse or keyboard if I read the specs correctly.

OK, I'll head over to the Dell website and see what $500 gets me...

[back in just a second...]
I had to add/delete a few items to get them close in terms of harware/software/speed, etc.

Low end Dell (as far as I can tell)
P4 2.8 gHz
512MB RAM
CD burner/DVD ROM
Firewire/USB
WinXP Home (although I thik Pro would be closer to OSX's features, but it's $80 more)
No monitor
MS Works
80GB HD
CD burning software

Final price is: $686

macMini
1.4gHz G4
512 MB RAM
Combo drive
Firewire/USB
OSX
No monitor or keyboard
iWork
80 GB HD
CD burning software

Final price is: $674

$686 or $674 - looks pretty close to me for a low end Dell VS a low end Mac.

Re:goodbye bank account

[juiceCake]

Haven't run into it. I have run into people who don't realize that there are more than one button. I tell them there is and how they work. Done. No confusion. However, I don't equate not knowing with confusion, so perhaps we have a different perspective. I've trained adults and children (adults professionally, children personally) and it has never been an issue. I usually use the keyboard as an analogy. You press a, a appears. You press b, b appears. They seem to understand this without any difficulty. You press CTRL-C, things are copied. Combined with visual cues on the screen of course. I also use volume or channel buttons on remotes(some of which are physically one button) if a user is not familiar with a mouse. They've all gotten the concept right away.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Calroth]

How would you define the "target market"? Would it be: "people who buy flash players"?

I would define it as "people who buy flash players who don't give a flying fuck about Ogg Vorbis". By definition, they don't care about Ogg Vorbis.

Re:goodbye bank account

[r_jensen11]

I think you mean "or even five buttons on your mouse", but really, it goes up to 7 or 9, depending on if you have an explorer mouse with the tilt wheel or not. Just thought I'd represent the people that spend time configuring their XOrg systems.

Re:goodbye bank account

[javaxman]

They're targeting the PC user full-bore: you just swap out your hulking Dell ATX case, and replace it with your new, tiny Mac.

You're not kidding!

Not that they were exactly 'hiding it' with the "Switch" campaign, now they have a hardware story that really targets casual Windows computer users, and they're selling it hard.

This image from the Mac mini - design page says it all !

Re:goodbye bank account

[Rasta Prefect]

Or spend the money for an Apple Keyboard. Why an Apple Keyboard? Chances are your current USB keyboard doesn't have USB pass-thru, and you'll have both USB ports tied up with keyboard and mouse. Oops!!

You have a USB keyboard that doesn't support pass-through? Wow. Where do you get your crap components? I've got a couple users with microsoft-style ergonomic keyboards they paid all of about $15.00 for and they've got two more USB ports on the board.

Re:goodbye bank account

[snowdropper]

Apple AU site doesn't carry this warning. Maybe because they are comparing the Shuffle to a pack of something that doesn't exist in Australia AFAIK. Cinnaburst? Nope, never heard of it.

Re:goodbye bank account

[km5gn]

Didn't see it as a step down. I have an 800 mhz G4 - the original 17" imac... But when I upgrade, to whatever I upgrade to, it sure would be nice to be able to use this screen.

Re:goodbye bank account

[at_slashdot]

Wouldn't this make the initial comment a tautology?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

ms was involved in the pre os/2 1.3 days, the wps with contextual menus didnt come along up os/2 ver 2.0. Which appeared after the ibm/ms split. warp was a code word for os/2 ver 3 and later.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Psychic Burrito]

Well I use the standard mouse and am quite happy with it. Which good reasons to you have for right-mouse-drag on OS X?

Re:goodbye bank account

[alan_dershowitz]

I find that funny, because a great deal of macintosh software requires you to use a mouse, because from the beginning all macintoshes came with them (unlike the PC where a user theoretically might not have a mouse, even using windows.) None of that stuff is represented in the menus at all, which is worse yet.

Furthermore, what's wrong with context menus? If you slap the option on the menu or in a button you are wasting real estate, you have to grey it out until you happen to hit the item it's used on. With context menus, you KNOW what the item it's used on is, becuase you already right-clicked it.

You can have your opinion on this, but I strongly disagree. As to why Apple sticks with the single mouse button, I think the answer is solely "trademark".

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Having used a wide range of G4 and G5 Macs, single and dual processor, from 450 MHz to 2 GHz, from 512 MB to 2 GB RAM, I can safely say that most users will be happy with 512 MB if the graphics card supports Quartz Extreme (which this new Mac does.) Yeah, I might not want to spend all day switching between a 300 MB file in Photoshop and a movie in iMovie, but then, I wouldn't want to do that with a 128 MB $499 Dell, either. This Mac will be a big step faster than my G3/800 iBook with 640 MB, and I'm pretty happy with the iBook for what I use it for (which includes iMovie.) And, in fact, that G3 iBook with QE runs OS X better than my old dual-533 G4 with 1 GB RAM and a non-QE card.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Omestes]

That really isn't a problem, most keyboards either have a USB->PS/2 or visa versa adapter in the box.

What I worry about is the fact this this thing only has 2 USB slots, and with a keyboard and a mouse, it leaves you with a grand total of none. Meaning all you have is the silly firewire port. So now I have my Mm, and I want to use their new iPhoto, I'm left with a choice, do I unplug my keyboard, or my mouse to sync my camera. Ditto for a printer. They should ship it with a USB hub.

Re:goodbye bank account

[b1t r0t]

That's because it's a laptop drive.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

IIRC, RAM installation at an Apple Store (bring your own) is $30. $30 more than we want to pay, sure, but it isn't going to break the bank anytime soon.

Re:goodbye bank account

[b1t r0t]

Note that machine comes with a CD-ROM. The CDRW/DVD drive is an extra $50.

RTFAWS. It comes with a "combo drive", which is CDRW/DVD. The "superdrive" (DVD-R) is an extra cost option.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

True, but it still takes away from the "all-in-one" aspect. One silly audio-in jack and it would've been perfect.

Re:goodbye bank account

[cpt kangarooski]

You know, those ADB keyboards are easy to find on ebay, are relatively cheap, and can be easily used on modern systems with an ADB/USB adapter. I have a shelf of Apple Extended Keyboard II's and I've been using them for ages and still do.

Re:goodbye bank account

[b1t r0t]

IHTM. He was talking about the POS. That's what quoting is for, dammit!

Re:goodbye bank account

[justins]

Don't get on Apple's case about expensive memory, because it's true in the PC world too! Whether it's Dell, Sony, IBM, whoever - you're almost always better off dollarwise to buy your system with the least available memory, then buy the upgrade from someone else.

Dell and Sony won't void the warranty of a PC if the end-user adds some memory. IBM's out of the PC business. Anyhow, that is the problem with Apple's approach here, not that they're overcharging for it.

Re:goodbye bank account

[CaptainAvatar]

IN fact, every mac user I've seen who uses a mouse uses a typical multi-button optical mouse, or other exotic device. Almost nobody uses the stock 1 button mouse.

I doubt these are average Mac users. In my experience (IT manager for a university department, probably still half Mac users) virtually nobody uses anything but the standard mouse. I'm about the only person who does, and even then I had to redeploy the mouse to another machine and go back to one of the crappy old round iMac mice :(

Re:goodbye bank account

[Total_Wimp]

This is poor, poor design.

You may be right about the tray, but everywere else it's a godsend. When I need to get something done I usually right-click and I can get it done without resorting to top menus or toolbars. This is _good_ design. Not only do I not need to move my mouse, but I don't have to search through a bunch of irrelevant stuff because the context-menu almost always has what I want.

Let me put it another way: Right clicking is like L2 cache. It usualy has what I want so I don't have to go back to main memory and therefore I save precious clock cycles gettting the data I need. Having one button is like not having L2 cache. You always have to go to main memory to get what you need.

Of course, keyboard shortcuts are like L1, but that's another story.... :-)

TW

Re:goodbye bank account

[Rasta Prefect]

Yeah...at $499+ each, I was thinking this would be a perfect vehicle to cluster a few of these things together. Is there anyway of doing this withing OSX, or would you need to reformat them all to Linux?

Cough..Virginia Tech...Cough...

Seriously though, OSX has some great clustering features. http://www.apple.com/acg/xgrid/

Re:goodbye bank account

[arminw]

...But these new low-cost Macs are intended for relatively sophisticated users...

I suspect that these new low cost Macs are intended for ordinary Wintel users who have bought an iPod and want to try out a Mac as a second machine. When they realize that with a Mac they no longer have to worry about viruses, spyware and all the other windows problems, they will relegate their PC to the kids to play games on. They will, in most cases be able to use their existing keyboard, monitor and mouse with their cheap Mac and then buy these items new later and return the old ones to the PC system. This new Mac may be a bigger threat to Mr. Gates than most people realize.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple make a lot of money on memory upgrades. That's obvious since they spec most machines with, the totally unrealistic, 256MB.

I'm not convinced that 256MB is unrealistic for the target market. Looking at the output of TOP on my G4 system running 10.3.7 I was able to bring the total memory consumption above 256MB running Safari, a command window, Word, Excel, and MT Newswatcher. This all surpassed 350MB. However the majority of that was inactive. The active component was about 160MB. Granted most of these were just sitting there. But OS X has an excellent memory manager that pages out unused pages allowing much more to run with less memory. But my system has 1.5GB of memory so I don't know how it would perform with "only" 256MB of memory.

Re:goodbye bank account

[CaptainAvatar]

And on top of that, if an oldster has severe arthritis, or the Parkinson's "shakies" as I have seen, a 2+ button mouse can be literally a pain.

That's an excellent point, easy to forget for us young'uns. Maybe Microsoft should be going down Apple's path, to facilitate the use of 1-button mice!

Re:goodbye bank account

[bsharitt]

You must not get out much.

Re:goodbye bank account

[porcupine8]

That's Ms Economist to you, thanks.

Whatever the target market is, it probably involves the average computer/iPod user. Who does not know, nor care, what Ogg Vorbis is. I think that if everyone who wanted that particular file format desperately did not buy the Shuffle, it would make a pretty tiny dent in sales.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Option-drag not good enough for some reason?

Re:goodbye bank account

[severdia]

Yeah baby!!!! http://www.severdia.com/gallery/macworld2005

Re:goodbye bank account

[severdia]

Yeah , , yeah . . http://www.severdia.com/gallery/macworld2005/

Re:goodbye bank account

[Total_Wimp]

Notes for MS Bigots:

Ok, I've read enough.

"MS Bigots?" "Mac Trolls?"

How come you Mac folk (I'm kinda responding to many of the above comments here) are so quick to resort to name calling when someone says they don't like your computer? Is it just possible they have a real reason for not liking it? Maybe, since this is a discussion forum, you should take the time to read and respond to that reason instead of calling them a troll or a bigot for simply expressing it.

I've used my GFs Mac quite a lot and I have a few gripes about it. I've taken the time to listen to Mac folk call my OS the spawn of Satan and took it like a man. Maybe it's time you folk can listen to a few of our observations with the same understanding.

TW

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny as it is, the insight is lacking in your reference to the single button mouse.

Have you forgotten projected evolution slates the movement of two eyes into one?

The single button mouse is the last state before human voice interaction; i.e., the mouth is the ultimate interface.

Having been around for a while and for the sake of future prosperity of an Anonymous Coward who will tell you where this is headed.

Back during the '90s, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) had a private project that dealt with voice interaction.

(iirc) DEC teamed up with a company (Dragon 'Nat. Spk.') and supplied one of the first voice command systems on a Media CD with the release of the XLT Dec Alpha models...and that was over 10 years ago.

The next phase is voice/retina interaction, with the finger as a 'fine tuner'.

I wonder where some of those DEC engineers went to work. ;-)

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Its probably thread locking glue, which comes in blue (and many other colors) if its metal on metal.

Re:goodbye bank account

[MasonMcD]

"Mac mini: now shipping, with no-button mouse"

Leave it to Apple to simplify a single-element item.

Re:goodbye bank account

[rat_herder]

Drag and drop premiered on MacOS and it has always been via the left mouse button, even if you are using a 2 button mouse. Why would OS X need to support it via the right mouse button???

Re:goodbye bank account

[jimbolaya]

If you've ever listened to an Ogg file, you're not in the target market. If you have an account name "at_slashdot," you're definitely not in the target market.

Re:goodbye bank account

[arminw]

...I don't know of any keyboard intended for PC compatible machines I've seen at electronics stores that uses a USB connection to the computer....

I have bought several Logitech keyboards and they came with a PS2 to USB adaptor. This allows the PS2 keyboard or mouse to work with a Mac. Such adaptors are cheap and commonly available.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Pope]

Don't be so damn mysterious, what is this NEED for right-dragging? What function does that do and in which OS? TELL US DAMN YOU! :)

Re:goodbye bank account

[Trixter]

The Atari ST shipped with a two-button mouse years before PCs even had mice.

BZZZT, try again. I was using a Mouse Systems mouse on an IBM modem 5150 in 1983 and it had two buttons on it. Atari ST didn't exist in 1983.

Re:goodbye bank account

[foonf]

Notes for MS Bigots: The Atari ST shipped with a two-button mouse years before PCs even had mice.

I don't think this is right. PC mice were available at least as early as 1983; the first Microsoft mouse came out then and it was even supported in the first DOS version of Word. There may have even been some available earlier than that. Mice were also available in that time span for the Apple II and other early architectures. The ST did not arrive until 1985.

Re:goodbye bank account

[mindstrm]

Have a read through apple's UI guidelines, there is good wisdom in there, even for non-apple stuff.

A second mouse button and context menus seems logical, as do many things once you get used to them, but to a brand new user, they aren't.

My mac has context menus all over the place if I have two buttons. Apple does not discourage this in any way, they only want basic application functionality to actually work with one button, which isn't too much to ask.

Everyone always complains about one button on macs, but I've yhet to hear someone point to a single example where a two button mouse didn't behave as expected on OSX, or where they felt functionality was missing.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Doctor O]

That's one nice idea, thanks! Maybe one can even use the special mac keys as meta keys or something by hacking the keyboard driver. Does this still work under Linux as it worked for DOS? *runs off looking it up*

Re:goodbye bank account

[jimbolaya]

Shouldn't you be fishing?

Re:goodbye bank account

[insensitive claude]

Mod parent up! I've been asking for the trackpad to be modular for years.

Re:goodbye bank account

[mindstrm]

True enough, you can't do that. I didn't say it was THE SAME as every other operating system.

And saying "Oh but I do have a need" well... what is it that you find difficult to do otherwise?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

I could remind everyone about the deliberate progression of the Apple brand starting from iMac, through the software and hardware products focusing on aesthetic design and intuitive function, culminating in iTunes, the Music Store and (wait for it... wait a long time for it...) iTunes for Windows (!), but that would be redunant. The important thing about today's announcement of the Mini Me, uh, Mini Mac, um, uh, Mac Mini, is this:

These little fuckers are going to sell like hotcakes in a Minnesota winter!

And it wasn't on accident. Steve knew, years ago, that this day was coming.

It's sweet when the smackdown comes, even if you're not in the pot...

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

That's Ms Economist to you, thanks.

ah, that explains a lot. who cares about functionality when you can have CUTENESS?

er, iCuteness

Re:goodbye bank account

[Gilmoure]

Check out Side Track. It lets you assign multiple click corners and scroll zones to your trackpad. Almost as good as a real 2 button trackpad.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Moofie]

You are a power user. I am a power user. My grandmother isn't.

The right mouse button is a useful feature for advanced users. That's why Apple has supported them IN THE OS since 1996, and Kensington supplied excellent functionality in their multi-button mouse driver back to 1994 (or earlier...that's when I bought one).

Look, when the PlayStation came out, developers had to make their games playable on the d-pad, since the DualShock gamepad wasn't available at ship time. The developers were forced to design to the least common denominator. However, most games that benefit from the analog control scheme had it built in...as an option.

I'm not saying that d-pads are better than analog control. I'm saying that forcing developers to cater to inexperienced (OK, ignorant) computer users is a good design decision, and a good business decision.

All the rest of us can plug in whatever mice we like. : )

(Oh yeah, and if you like keyboard shortcuts, check out keyquencer. This is the macro setup God uses.)

Re:goodbye bank account

[BlueCodeWarrior]

As a poor college student, I hear you. I'll soon be saving for a new computer, and I'm a Mac guy at heart, but being able to run Linux on a cheaper PC would have been more attractive to me...


Now I have quite a bit to think about.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Kplusplus]

That's because the entire purpsoe of this machine is just that. It's to grab Developers to come and work on Mac software. Basically it's like a Lays Potato Chip, they assume that once you start, you won't be able to stop.

As a developer your primary concern will be either how can you make money off this, or how what are the APIs like.

For the former you have the comfort of lower piracy and that Mac users not only pay for software that they like, but tell their friends about them. On the latter you have the gorgeous Cocoa API to work with where everything you want to do is usually very simple or done already in the many years that people have been using the NeXtStep frameworks and adding categories, subclasses, and extensions for your use that fit in with the desgin of Cocoa.

New Users aren't that important as those will come if you have new Developers leading to new apps, apps that those user will in turn come for.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

I must add in here that Mac OS X does not always play nice with non-Apple-blessed memory.

Re:goodbye bank account

[maclassicuser]

You could use the macmini in firewire target mode. Hold down t at start up

Re:goodbye bank account

[Kiryat Malachi]

In Windows, option-drag opens up a context-move menu (do you want to: move this file, copy this file, create a shortcut to this file?)

Re:goodbye bank account

[lrucker]

And for OS X to really sing, mucho memory is required

My original iBook sang just fine with 192M. Amazingly enough, each new version of OS X ran *faster*. It was almost unusable on 10.0, nice on 10.1, and ran everything I needed all at once on 10.3 (Safari, AppleWorks, Mail, and the odd small app)

Not everyone's a power user.

Re:goodbye bank account

[HSpirit]

...every mac user I've seen who uses a mouse uses a typical multi-button optical mouse, or other exotic device. Almost nobody uses the stock 1 button mouse.

Every QuarkXPress professional setting type on a Mac I have ever seen uses the one-button mouse. These are people who are extremely productive doing keyboard intensive prepress work, using the mouse as little as possible.

I'm not denying that a two-button mouse is effective for some people, and even for most people in some applications, but it equally holds that a one-button mouse is an incredibly productive and ergonomic tool in many of the applications which are (or have been) Apple's core markets.

Re:goodbye bank account

[BlueCodeWarrior]

Well, I'll be able to help you. See, I know how to 'fix' the iMac so it's just a screen. Just ship it up, send it to me, and I'll take care of it. It just may look like a red Nokia 447L 15" CRT, but hey, that's just the bleeding edge of style with monitors these days.


You'll be happy...trust me.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, yes it does, but I don't think ANYONE knows that except by accident. So if I were you, I wouldn't use it as an integral part of the UI. On any OS.

Re:goodbye bank account

[MasonMcD]

Err...someone who doesn't want to void the warranty? My post was in reply to one that noted that the specs page says:

"Memory upgrade must be performed by an Apple Authorized Service provider.".

Are there "authorized service providers" that do not price gouge like the apple store? I would very much like 1GB of memory but there is no way I would pay these prices for it.


It doesn't say "memory must be purchased from Apple" only that the upgrade is performed by an authorized service provider.

Go out and buy RAM from RAMJet or whomever, and trot down to an Apple Store if you want to keep the warranty intact.

If you don't care - I know tons of /. readers are oh-so-careful not to void any warrantees with unnecessary mods - wait about 12 hours after the mac minis start shipping, then google for the damn japanese schematic detailing the 19 steps for cracking open the case, disassembling the case, sticking in the gig stick of RAM, neon tubing, the Radeon X800 XT with the slot cut out of the side of the mac to accommodate it, the peltier cooler, neon tubing and dry ice special effects.

24 hours after they ship, you can probably buy a ABS plastic extruded plastic case cracker with instructions off somebody's dot mac site.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Mac OS 10.3 runs fine with 256MB of memory. My friend has a 600Mhz G3 iBook with 128MB ram, it runs fine. Mac OS 10.3 is lean and mean, unlike Windows.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

In Mac OS, option-drag forces a copy, and command-drag forces a move. Control-click opens a context menu. And your point is...???

Re:goodbye bank account

[porcupine8]

Honestly, it's not that cute. Now the mini....

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe for people who are left-handed? Or for people with no index finger?

Re:goodbye bank account

[deanj]

The Superdrive is also available, but it's $100, not $50.

Re:goodbye bank account

[double-oh three]

Close, but no cigar. Yes, they're selling it, but they're also smart enough to realize that they don't have to. Why? Because we will. I have a Dell at home my parents and brother use, and I hate its guts. Secured it with firewalls, NAT, etc. and it still gets spyware/adware/crap on it. So I have to spend time fixing it. If I could just grab the HDs, take off the important stuff, and basically make it rarely used... I would. And I can do that if I can get my parents to get the new Mac Mini. So suddenly I'm selling it to them.

My guess? You guys are too.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

> I would add that the day it made sense to have
> a two-button mouse over a one-button mouse was
> the day that contextual menus were invented

Yes, probably. Sunview, which I first used in '88 but had been around for a while by then, already had a consistent use for 3 buttons with the middle button activating the context menu. Quite who invented it I don't know, but I would guess Xerox would be a good place to look.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you can go to WalMart and buy a 15$ USB hub that will give you a total of 5 USB ports...

Re:goodbye bank account

[BandwidthHog]

If I'm reading this right, then you are attempting to implement a feature such that Mac users with a stock setup will not be able to use it.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll second that. I have very few problems using the 1-button mouse with modifier keys most of the time, although there are a few rare cases where two buttons would be a little more convenient. I can see where two buttons would be nice for a one-handed user, though (interpret that in whatever sense you like).

Before you dismiss me as someone who doesn't know any better, I'll let you know that I am a programmer with a background of 10+ years using Unix/X11 & a 3-button mouse as my primary working environment. OK, now you can dismiss me as someone who doesn't know any better.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course. How else would you get people to pay for the "special" mouse that you bundle with your software?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

You are truly very sad.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I was typing the above from a linux terminal. I rarely look at the keyboard. It is indeed control click (why is it that click-and-hold doesn't work everywhere?).

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Try to run Windows without a right mouse button. It's possible, but MUCH harder.

This is so true. I have an Apple keyboard and standard mouse attached to a KVM that is also attached to a WinXP machine. Trying to perform file move/copy operations in Windows Explorer is a challenge, to say the least.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Jord]

Mac USB keyboards have a small USB hub built into them. Generally, you connect the Mac mouse to the back of the Mac keyboard and then connect the keyboard to your computer. This leaves you with two USB ports free. Quite a few after market USB keyboards have the same setup. My Happy Hacker's keyboard has two USB ports on it which makes life nice and easy.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Kiryat Malachi]

He asked if any OS used right-drag, and for what.

I pointed out that Windows does, in fact, use it, and what for. Neither better nor worse (I like OS X, quite a bit), just answering someone's question.

You want to back down a little bit before you look *entirely* like a goddamn fanboy?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of Dell systems are shipping without any PS/2 ports on the motherboard. You have to pay extra to get a PCI card.

The budget PCs at your local Best Buy are PS/2 based because they're using motherboards bought at firesale prices because the motherboard manufacturer was trying to get old stock off the books. eMachines should just rename themselves Packard Bell and get it over and done with.

Most of the newer, more expensive systems are USB based. If you start looking at systems >$500 you may notice this trend.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Kiryat Malachi]

Whoops.

I say option-drag, I mean right-drag. Blame it on spray paint fumes.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had this same conversation with my father. A few times. He's not an exceptional case, in my experience. To most new computer users (older ones, anyway), the multi-button mouse is as confusing as the controls on my VCR.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Kiryat Malachi]

I know it because Windows uses the right button for context menus, and dragging to manipulate file locations; why wouldn't right-drag bring up a context menu for file location manipulation? It isn't accident, it's actually as logical as anything gets when it comes to MS.

Re:goodbye bank account

[ogewo]

Good cheap Mac, Bad cheap computer. A $500-$700 windows/linux laptop is a much better deal.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Just buy reputable memory, I use Kingston in my iBook and I'm probably going to use Kingston in my Mac Mini. Other people have suggested Crucial, but I can't get that, so I can't say.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Should I keep going?

No need. You've done a sufficent job of showing that you can't RTFA.

Re:goodbye bank account

[BenFaremo]

Oh-- and let's not forget how you restart a PC (not that you have to do it much)! Click "start." Select "shut down." Now select "restart." Yeah, I would have found that.

Yep. As if "throw the cdrom icon away to eject it" is so much more intuitive.

Re:goodbye bank account

[MadChicken]

Yeah, I have one! It's a Logitech cordless keyboard. Maybe you've heard of them...

Re:goodbye bank account

[myov]

I would add that the day it made sense to have a two-button mouse over a one-button mouse was the day that contextual menus were invented

Think earlier. On the Amiga (1985, same as the Mac), left was "click". Right was "display menu", but as a bar along the top (like a Mac). The menu bar was hidden at all other times, displaying the screen name/app name/stats instead.

(anyone else remember multiple screens? Think multiple pages of windows, stacked on top of each other. A button in the corner cycled screens, or you can drag them up and down)

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

"Yep. As if "throw the cdrom icon away to eject it" is so much more intuitive."

It sounds as though you are several years out of date with the Mac desktop.

The trash-eject functionality is enabled in OS X, but only as a convenience for existing users.

The preferred way to eject media is to click the eject button for the mounted media (which looks like an eject button should) through the Finder interface.

Re:goodbye bank account

[TClevenger]

Right-mouse drag-n-drop is the one feature that I miss. On Windows, you can right-drag and then choose Copy here, Move here, Create Shortcut here, Unzip here, etc. from the contextual menu that results. On OS X, you have to use a key combination when dragging and dropping, and you don't get cool add-ins like "WinRAR extract here."

Re:goodbye bank account

[Dolda2000]

On a 1980s computer, with a more limited set of functions, and a computing public with a lower level of computing knowledge, one mouse button was probably better than two.

Good point. There once was a time when you had to explain to people what double-clicking meant. (And if they had an Atari ST, they had to learn to double-click really really quickly.)

I would add that the day it made sense to have a two-button mouse over a one-button mouse was the day that contextual menus were invented, because that was the first time that a consistent meaning was applied to the second button. Not to pick on my poor old Atari ST, but the uses for the second mouse button varied so much between applications that it was more trouble to try and figure out what it did than use it.

Are you aware that X11 applications have been using three button mice with consistent functions since I don't know when?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

>a great deal of macintosh software requires you to use a mouse

Are we talking OS X here? If we are, this is no problem:

System Preferences > Universal Access > Mouse > Mouse Keys: > On
System Preferences > Mouse & Keyboard > Keyboard Shortcuts > Turn on full keyboard access

From the Help for "full keyboard access":

Control + F1 Turn Full Keyboard Access on or off Control + F2 Highlight the menu bar Control + F3 Highlight the Dock Control + F4 Highlight the active window or the next window behind it Control + F5 Highlight the toolbar Control + F6 Highlight a tool palette then each palette in order Control + F7 Access all controls in the current dialog

Re:goodbye bank account

[TheAncientHacker]

Note for Anti-MS Bigots: Xerox and Lisp Machines had contextual menus long before Microsoft and IBM created OS|2.

Re:goodbye bank account

[theEd]

Yes, but right-click takes on a whole different meaning if you are left handed. I come from a multidexterous family and trust me one button mice make the world that much easier. You don't have to specially configure the computer out of the box and more importantly, you don't have to reconfigure the computer everytime a person with a different handedness uses it. You can use the mouse with either hand and you get the same experience.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

You stupid fuckwad,

That Gateway doesn't have a DVD player, CD burner, Firewire and many other things that the Mini does.

Re:goodbye bank account

[lsmeg]

You may be right about the tray, but everywere else it's a godsend. When I need to get something done I usually right-click and I can get it done without resorting to top menus or toolbars.

I think the point here is that there shouldn't be any functionality that's only available by right-click. By shipping their systems with only one button mouses, they ensure that developers can't make functionality only available under a right-click since they can't assume their user has 2 buttons. I've found myself randomly right-clicking things in various windows apps trying to figure out how to do something because I couldn't find it on the menu or toolbar, which is poor design.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Jeremi]

Don't be so damn mysterious, what is this NEED for right-dragging? What function does that do and in which OS? TELL US DAMN YOU! :)

Okay, okay, I'll talk! :^) In our live-audio mixing application, we like to be able to right-drag from one fader to another to copy the source fader's state to the target fader. (Left-drag doesn't work because left-drag is used to move the fader thumb up and down). This mechanism works fine under BeOS, Windows, and X11, but under OS/X a right-drag immediately aborts and TrollTech tells us there is nothing they can do about it, because the Carbon D&D API doesn't support right-drag. So our poor Mac users are stuck holding down the control key while dragging, and complaining that our app is inconsistent across platforms...

Re:goodbye bank account

[Jeremi]

If I'm reading this right, then you are attempting to implement a feature such that Mac users with a stock setup will not be able to use it.

Nah... those people can still access the feature by holding down the control key while left-dragging. But the thing is, our users are used to our right-dragging functions (from their experience with our software on other platforms) and they complain when it doesn't work on the Mac.

Re:goodbye bank account

[MtViewGuy]

You're right. Methinks I need to check the boxes for the Logitech wireless keyboard/mouse combo products. :-/

Re:goodbye bank account

[MtViewGuy]

If I remember correctly, it was only later MacOS 9.x versions that had the support for scroll wheel/multibutton mice through the USB port.

That makes me wonder: why didn't Apple produce such a mouse pointer on their own? Was Apple too interested in keeping thing simple even with mouse pointers? (shrug)

Re:goodbye bank account

[trenton]

And if you don't want the 17" CRT, you get a $80 discount putting you $30 ahead. Also, the system has a 80 gig drive, which would cost an extra $50 on the mac. I agree the software bundle is much better on the mac.

Re:goodbye bank account

[MtViewGuy]

However, is the USB ports(s) on the USB keyboard considered a "powered" hub? Or was it not designed for that purpose?

Re:goodbye bank account

[alan_dershowitz]

Everything you have said I agree with 100%. With the release of OS X and the promotion of context menus to first class citizen, I am a happy camper with OS X. Keep in mind though, prior to OS X context menus required a third-party driver+mouse and user-created macros to support anything, and it didn't work right half the time. I know, I had one of those kensington two-button mac mouses. Wasn't worth the money.

As for the UI guidelines, they don't seem to rigidly follow them anymore, and brushed metal is massively overused. I don't think they've made a commitment to their new sliding popup windows. New iTunes still uses the old ones. I can see why. If you make a mistake on something, you can move a free-floating popup out of the way to see what you did, but the sliding ones... :-(

This, plus the lack of sloppy focus, they are mere quibbles. Since the release of OS X my respect for the Macintosh has skyrocketed. I have just purchased a Mac Mini, which will replace a crusty ol' blue and white G3 400.

Re:goodbye bank account

[NoodleSlayer]

I just started working at Apple meaning for the first time in well over six years I'm using Macs on a daily basis.

I've been suprised how much I don't notice there not being a second mouse-button, and in rare cases control-click works fairly well too. In all fairness I'm not doing any graphics work or anything of the sort on those macs. I do that at home on my PC with my 5 button mouse, which probably would work with a Mac too. MacOS has had support for two-button mice for quite a while if I remember right, its just that not many people hook up a 2 button mouse to MacOS.

Re:goodbye bank account

[edgar_is_good]

Well, to be fair, people have always thought more highly of my research than the clarity of my writing... sorry for giving an ambiguous comment!

Re:goodbye bank account

[ColMustard]

This would matter if anyone could say for sure whether one or two (or more) buttons were actually better than anything else, but the fact is that it's just a matter of opinion. Some find one button & control clicking natural and just as easy as two buttons.

One button just so happens to be what Apple typically ships with and other companies typically ship with two button mice. Big deal. If you think it's stupid then you can write Apple about it.

Re:goodbye bank account

[wwwillem]

Just bought (also Canada) a handsomely equipped Shuttle (AMD 64 3000+, 1 Gig, 80 Gig, DVD-R, no WiFi), so that sounds comparable to your Mac Mini config. And I paid also little above CAD 1000. I know you can buy a 500 bucks (400 US) PC, but then "you get what you pay for". So, even in Canadian dollars, I think this mini Mac is decently priced.

Anyway, if you're so serious about it being too expensive in Canada, Apple luckily made it small enough that you can just buy one at Fry's and take it home (in your coat pocket :). It's even cheap enough that you don't have to pay duties on it when bringing it back home.

My only concern with this Mini Mac next to my monitor and keyboard would be that I would be so tempted to put my beer mug on it. It really looks like a thick coaster .... the bad news being of course that the beer will warm up pretty quickly :-).

Re:goodbye bank account

[andreyw]

A mouse on your modem huh, how qute. There is no real need to be an ass you know, especially if you screw up in your post anyways. Should I go "BZZZT, try again" as well?

Well, here it is.
BZZZT, try again. The PeeCee didn't have any use for that mouse back in '83, while the ST at least had a coherent GUI and OS. Besides, who gives a flying f^Hduck? The mouse conceptualized from the Xerox PARC project. They were the first. Everyone feel better now? Look, they'll be those who will keep on ranting about the 1-button since well... thats all there is to rant about. Frankly, I don't get what the problem is. The interface is FULLY usable with the stock mouse. Yes, I prefer my optical 3-button mouse. Yes, I will use it with my Mini or iBook when I get it.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll bitch about the same things as always.

What no slots ? I can't put 4 hard drives in it ? Can't replace the video card ? What the hell good is that ?"

I've already had one say that

Re:goodbye bank account

[OS24Ever]

What made me buy a two button mouse? Trying to figure out how to swim with a one button mouse in World of Warcraft.

Before that, I'd used one button for years. Amazingly enough I still control-click my way through killing things in WoW but I have to hold down both buttons to swim up/swim down.

Re:goodbye bank account

[lowmagnet]

The bottom of the Mac mini says "Keyboard, mouse, megaphone and display sold separately."

Re:goodbye bank account

[jo_ham]

Lack of Fkeys?

The iBook has 12 of them. Do you need more than that? The full Mac keyboard only has another three.

You can swap the behaviour of the Fkeys on a powerbook/ibook in system preferences to make either the key or its alternate function the dominant one (the other being accessed by holding the Fn modifier).

I have my powerbook set up this way, since I bind several F keys to applescripts to perform various tasks, usually involving control of iTunes and other apps while they're hidden. I access the less-used brightness/volume/keyboard illunination functions with the Fn key.

Re:goodbye bank account

[zrail]

Um, DXanything compliancy doesn't particularly matter on Mac OS X that renders everything with DisplayPDF and OpenGL. Not that that dims your point any, of course, because the Intel integrated video isn't DXanything or OpenGL or DisplayPDF compliant.

Re:goodbye bank account

[NoodleSlayer]

I've been using Macs with only 256 MB of RAM in em and they've worked fine for what I do with them at work. Email. Surf the Web. Meeting Scheduling Software. Word Processing. Remote Desktop, Terminal and some other various buisness apps. All running at the same time with little to no problem. In all fairness I haven't tried any real multimedia tasks, then I could see the use of 1 GB, and is the reason why I have 1 GB of RAM in my home PC.

For many users I think 256 MB will be fine, or the $75 upgrade to 512 MB. You can still fully enjoy MacOS with that amount. However it is worthwhile to note that Tiger will require 256 MB of RAM.

Re:goodbye bank account

[NoodleSlayer]

The Mac Mini has no screw holes. At least none that I was able to see. A couple of us were looking at one today trying to figure out how to open the sucker ;)

Re:goodbye bank account

[Slayback]

No, you do not void your warranty to simply add RAM or upgrade the hard drive.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=1 39 46

Re:goodbye bank account

[at_slashdot]

Ms. Economist,
I'm not sure if you notice but this two positions are not necessarily contradictory (in fact both are kind of pointing the obvious)

1. His/her remark: iPod is not targeted to people who: want ogg vorbis, want cheap battery replacement, want open standars and in general value liberty (in the computing world at least)
2. My remark: There are people that value freedom and will not buy this kind of products.
----------
Buttom line, both statements are true. The first one probably makes more sense from the economic point of view, but I think you underestimate the number of people who value freedom.

BTW, computational freedom is not that evident as other types of freedom, but it's just as adictive, once you taste it you don't want to give it up (I know I feel this regarding Linux) that's a growing market segment whatever you say. Apple might target thier products to people that don't care about freedom, but it might as well make economic sense to include other people too.

My impression is that Apple has lost PR/marketing battle in this field long time ago and people who care a little bit about freedom will not use their products as long as they have a better choice.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Toddlerbob]

I've been reading and reading, so forgive me if someone's addressed this already.

How easy is it to swap out the hard drive on the mac mini and replace it with one of the larger ones that I have laying around here? From remarks about memory I would assume it voids the warranty, but it might be worth the risk to have 250 gigs rather than 40.

along those lines, is a CD with OS X included with the mac mini, or is it like those cheap windows pc's that sometimes come with no XP CD, but rather a hidden partition with the installation files and drivers?

Re:goodbye bank account

[NoodleSlayer]

'That' only has "Intel Extreme Grahpics" with shared memory, a far cry from the Radeon 9200 in the Mac Mini.

'That' only has a CD-ROM drive. The Mac Mini has a DVD/CD-RW combo drive.

'That' has no firewire port.

The Mac Mini also comes with iMovies, iPhoto and GarageBand, a full suite of multimedia applications to take advantage of that firewire port.

And the Mac mini is at least less then a third the size of the Gateway box.

Oh and the G4 is at least comparable to a Celeron, although for most of the applications users will use these things for they are not likely to notice the difference between them. As for the 17" CRT, throw in another $80 for that, assuming the user doesn't already have a monitor laying around, which Apple is assuming (most likely correctly, as they're targetting these towards people looking to replace their PCs) they do.

Re:goodbye bank account

[rocketjam]

Attention moderators! The parent comment is Informative not Insightful! It doesn't require insight to know Macs work with 2-button mice. It just takes experience with a Mac and a 2-button mouse.

Re:goodbye bank account

[reso]

who doesn't buy a new 2-3 button mouse when you get a mac nowadays? seriously? are you too daft to make a $10 purchase at a local computer store or online?

Re:goodbye bank account

[reso]

i work at a large agency in nyc and almost everyone throws apple's one button mouse out (actually in their cabinet drawers until they quit or get fired, and then it goes in the trash) and buys a multi-button mouse.

this has been true of most of the agencies i've worked at over the last 6 years.

Re:goodbye bank account

[porcupine8]

2. My remark: There are people that value freedom and will not buy this kind of products.

No, your remark was that you, as a member of the target market, care about freedom (in your audio file format). I am not arguing the fact that people who want other file formats won't buy this. I'm just arguing that they aren't part of the target audience, as you seem to admit:

Apple might target thier products to people that don't care about freedom

It may be a "growing market segment," but it's still pretty tiny. Too tiny for Apple to worry about when they're courting the 80% of computer users who have heard of "open source" as some kind of geek buzzword but that's about it. If Apple wants its market share to grow, it's that 80% it needs to worry about first and foremost, and it can worry about appeasing the miniscule-but-growing number of freedom fighters later, if at all.

Re:goodbye bank account

[cpt kangarooski]

On my windows box the cmd key maps to the windows button, iirc. But I hate that, so I remap it to the control button, which is the closest thing there is to a real command button.

The ADB/USB adapter is the Griffin iMate -- it's just a little deal that sits inline. Supports ADB mice as well, I understand, though I've never tried that. Doesn't seem to need drivers.

Re:goodbye bank account

[lamz]

Note for inaccurate posters - it was actually ten months, the ST being released in January '85, Windows 1.0 being released in November '85.

In 1987, I worked for a company that built and sold their own line of PCs. There wasn't a mouse in the house.

And vast numbers of PC users stuck with DOS, mouse-less, right up until 1995, when Windows 95 was released. I worked at Babbages until the summer of 1994, and there was a constant parade of people wanting to remove Windows 3 because they preferred DOS. Many others complained that Microsoft had ceased to update DOS versions of their favourite software.

Re:goodbye bank account

[alset_tech]

The box is - get this - smaller than the standard iPod box.

Wrong. I played with a mini at MacWorld, today. It certainly cannot fit in a box with the dimensions of an iPod box, even without styrofoam. I kind of doubt that would meet Apple's criteria for safe packaging.

Re:goodbye bank account

[JeffTL]

Thus Windows XP is obviously broken because not only does F9 not work like it's supposed to, but F10 and F11 as well -- aren't they supposed to show all open windows, only the active app's, and none at all?

Oh. Wait. That's a Mac OS X feature, like the contextual drag is a Windows feature. Not every OS has every feature.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

And you'd better act fast, because "To receive your $100 rebate check, you must purchase a Gateway 3200S/3200SE Desktop between 12/23/04 and 1/12/05."

Re:goodbye bank account

[at_slashdot]

No, your remark was that you, as a member of the target market...

No, read my post again, where did I use the word "target"? I said: "I am in the market ..." I try to be pretty precise in expression although English is not my native tongue

If Apple wants its market share to grow, it's that 80% it needs to worry about first and foremost, and it can worry about appeasing the miniscule-but-growing number of freedom fighters later, if at all.

I didn't try to give market recepies to Apple, I just made a point. But, I don't think going for the 80% of the market and freedom are mutually exclusive. Actually, the first people to use Apple would be the one disgusted with Microsoft, most of Linux users are the people in that category so theoretically it would be very easy for Apple to target Linux users (that's around 5% of the market -- just imagine Apple capturing around 10% of the market) That's not possible I think partially because the lack of freedom aura that Apple has formed during the years. Apple has (and it's trying now to get rid of) the "expensive" aura but it also have "lack of choices, lock in, proprietary HW/SW/formats" image that is not going in their favor.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Y'know, tie a zero-button mouse into an OS and application suite using mouse gestures, and you'll have complete functionality without any buttons.

It might suck to use though :)
(Remember to highlight text, it is up-down-counterclockwise-trace-of-a-happyface then move over text :)

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

>Try to run Windows without a right mouse button. It's possible, but MUCH harder.

sure, i just use a windows keyboard with the menu key (the one between the right alt and right ctrl key)

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about you, but you'd have to pay me at least $80 to get me to accept another worthless CRT.

Re:goodbye bank account

[mkldev]

The problem is that right-click and control-click are reserved for contextual menus. There's a Technical Q&A on the subject. I'm -very- surprised that control-dragging works. It should exhibit the same behavior.

You should consider using middle-drag (option-drag) on the Mac, since that should not exhibit this problem.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Rasta Prefect]

Yeah, I have one! It's a Logitech cordless keyboard. Maybe you've heard of them...

Wireless keyboards are a special case. They make up a minority of USB Keyboards, and to put it in the context of the grandparent, Apple's wireless keyboards (bluetooth) don't have USB ports either.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

No, as you have now acknowledged, your comment talked about option-drag, not right-drag. The fact that this was a brain fart on your part wasn't evident. You want to back down a little bit before you look *entirely* like a goddamn jerk?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Moofie]

Yes. Like I said. Possible. Much harder.

Wouldn't it be nice if the OS weren't set up to REQUIRE that?

Re:goodbye bank account

[grrrl]

thats why you dont need the extra buttons

actually, i have a 5-button+scroll mouse plugged into my ibook

the button i use the *least* is the right button! almost never use it!

i have the others mapped to far more useful functions - change safari tabs, close window, check mail, paste, etc etc

i agree that if they made 2 button mice developers would get lazy and whack in bloated contextual menus - maybe if they brought out a 4 button mouse with two side buttons, a scroll wheel and NO right button???? :)

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

here in Canada: ... $1024.00 + tax.

Canadian dollars?

What's that in real money?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Omestes]

Yeah, but Mac keyboards cost some change, without any added functionality besides aesthetics. And most USB keyboards have all those damn dash buttons on them (hate them, someday I'll find a nice cordless keyboard with no extra buttons, probably the same day I find a decent left-handed trackball).

Though, lookinh at it, there is no eject button on the case, so you might need a Mac Keyboard.

Re:goodbye bank account

[grrrl]

they arent powered and they are USB 1

Re:goodbye bank account

[MrYotsuya]

I guess I can empty my pockets of change and mail it to you, that should cover about half of it at the current rate, right? ;)


Looking at today's financial pages, the Canadian dollar buys 0.8214 US dollars and the US dollar buys 0.7617 Euros, I suppose it's just as true that a European can give you less pocket change to get that iPod

Re:goodbye bank account

[1u3hr]

The one mouse button .... They also don't force you to comply with that design. Would you please explain to me what's wrong with that?

The problem was, until today, they forced you to buy a one-button mouse along with every Mac. In about 1997 I was contemplating buying a new PC, and came very close to buying a Mac. When I chose a model and asked them to upgrade the drive, as I thought 3GB a bit limiting, the answer was I was welcome to buy a new drive and install it myself (or pay them to do it), and of course pay for the orginal drive I wouldn't be using. So I went to a computer mall and got a Pentium PC built to order. Apple have changed since then, and unbundling the mouse finally marks the end of this rigid policy.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Kiryat Malachi]

JESUS. FUCKING. CHRIST.

He ASKED FOR AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT RIGHT-DRAG IS USED FOR. NOT IN OS X. IN ANY OS.

What function does that do and in which OS?

See? He asked - WHAT DOES IT DO. WHAT OS DOES IT DO IT IN.

And I answered him.

HOW. FUCKING. HARD. IS. THAT. TO. UNDERSTAND. YOU. FLAMING. APPLE. FANBOY.

(posted from Safari on OS X, for the record.)

Re:goodbye bank account

[Moofie]

Oh! my! GOD! They FORCED you to buy a mouse! Those BRUTES!

They forced you to buy a mouse because their customers screamed when there was no mouse. Do you really, really think that the price would have been that much lower if they had NOT put a mouse in the damn box? Get real.

You didn't want to buy a Mac. Never mind that, now, today, SEVEN YEARS AFTER YOUR TANTRUM, you can build to order on Apple's web site. Fine. Nobody cares. Please don't buy one of these.

They're unbundling the mouse on their cheapest Mac. They're still included with iMacs and powermacs. Those brutes.

Re:goodbye bank account

[afidel]

Not sure about the Apple keyboards but my Microsoft Internet Keyboard Pro has a power pass through hub built in, that is it powers my MS Trackball Optical just fine without an additional wall wart. I have to say that MS really knows how to pick some of the best hardware to rebrand =)

Re:goodbye bank account

[Jord]

1. There is more than one way to eject a disk on OS X. Dragging it to the trash is another way, Hitting the eject button in the finder is another. 2. In my opinion, Mac pro keyboards are simply nicer than the junk you get from other companies. I have a Dell on my desk at work and that keyboard feels like it came out of a cracker-jack box. I am certain if I hit a key too hard it would break easily. While the pro keyboard that came with my Mac feels a lot more solid. 3. There are some really nice after market Mac keyboards out there. Macally makes a really nice one. Although as stated before I use a Happy Hacker keyboard on my machine and it works perfectly.

Re:goodbye bank account

[xbasque]

you should be able to dual-boot with yellow dog linux , hopefully in a couple of months . just do it .

Re:goodbye bank account

[2muchcoffeeman]

"Exactly. This is a bold move by Apple essentially because they are admitting that they may have been wrong."

No, actually this is a bold move by Apple because it takes advantage of hardware the PC user already has. Most of the so-called "right-click" mouse functions are available with an Apple mouse simply by holding the control key as you click.

Re:goodbye bank account

[catwh0re]

also i might like to add, that there is a mistaken belief that mac users hate multiple mouse buttons. however this isn't the case, the support for the sole mouse button comes from the fact that apple software isn't dependent on right clicking on everything to get some functionality. mac software tends to be more short cut orientated, hence a one hand on the keyboard, one on the mouse is common mac usage. Adding to this, since one hand is on the keyboard, accessing the "second mouse button" i.e contextual menus is trivial, as it's simply the ctrl key.

Re:goodbye bank account

[rhuntley12]

Still not as cheap as a regular PC? And still can't play my games on it. Those have always been my complaints and still is. Although I'm kind of looking at that new shuffle, but I just don't see where I would use it much, I'll probably buy it anyway and sit it next to all my other junk:)

Re:goodbye bank account

[rhuntley12]

When I bought my dell laptop awhile ago I had them put the extra memory in. It was something like $40 difference then buying it myself(added 512) at the time I didn't know how easy it was to add that. $40 is reasonable for the average user who doesnt know where to look or what to do with it. Now, over $400?

Re:goodbye bank account

[BlueCodeWarrior]

This is true. However, I guess what I really meant (heck, I pointed out YDL to someone else in this discussion) was that with x86, I could dual boot Linux for usual use and Windows for games...I'd like to play HL2, for instance, but that's not gonna be an option if I get a Mac.

Yes, I know there's lots of good Mac games, yadda, yadda, I've been using Macs since the Plus.

Re:goodbye bank account

[juiceCake]

I'd like to thank you for providing an excellent example. Comparing an AMD 64 3000+ system to a G4 system with half the RAM perfectly highlights the price and performance ratio that makes the Mac Mini less than attractive to yours truly and is indeed the main point I have made.

Thanks for the support.

Of course if performance isn't a major factor and preferences differ than one's opinion differs as well. I applaud Apple for filling in a niche for those who are interested in it.

Re:goodbye bank account

[The One and Only]

Have you ever seen an iPod box? Those things are several times the size of the iPod.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Kiryat Malachi]

Considering there's no such key as "option" on Windows, and considering the original post it was in reply to was about right-dragging, it was pretty evidently a mistype. Yours, on the other hand, had no point when

Don't be so damn mysterious, what is this NEED for right-dragging? What function does that do and in which OS? TELL US DAMN YOU! :)

was the question being answered. Did you say anything about right-drag? No. You didn't. So back the fuck off. Fanboy.

Re:goodbye bank account

[SteeldrivingJon]

I was expecting a new line of Lindsey Lohan iMplants.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Amiasian]

Lack of freedom aura?
They've succeeded. Apple is an active citizen in open source development. Darwin, KHTML, Open Source Streaming Server. And, well, there is the Linux on iPod project for hacking the firmware. Not sure how it's coming along or if it'll be ported to the iPod Shuffle . . . but that's a step in the direction you're hoping for.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Omestes]

I was spoiled with a nice IBM keyboard, where you could basically drop a nuke on it, and it would still work, albeit weighed 2 pounds. All keyboards feel cheap to me now after that. It was the only keyboard that could break your knee when you got pissed at it.

The eject (and volume) buttons on the Mac keyboard are the easiest, and hence most Macish, ways to control these things though. Though I'm not familiar with this "Happy Hacker" keyboard you have, do you have a link to it?

Re:goodbye bank account

[10Ghz]

You can get a half-gig flash based mp3 player for under 50 bucks.

And those players are crap, plain and simple.

Compare to This for 349 - oh, this comes with a 17" Flat CRT

I did a comparison of the Gateway-machine to the $599 Mac Mini. I made these changes to the Gateway in order to make them more comparable in specs:

XP Pro instead of XP Home (+79.99)
48x/32x/48x CD-RW/DVD combo drive (+45.00)
Desktop Value Service Plan (+59.99)
No monitor (-80.00)
Total: +104.98

So, the PC costs $673.97 (including shipping) Substract from that the rebates (do you get them if you customize the machine? Anyway...) and you have a total price of $523.97. So the Mac is still a bit more expensive. What do you get with that extra money?

- Nice case made of adonized aluminium, instead of that horrible tower on the Gateway
- Tiny machine that fits everywhere
- Silent machine, instead of one that has fans
- iLife
- OS X
- Radeon 9200 instead of a crappy integrated vid-card.

Gateway offers:

- Keyboard and mouse
- Expansion-slots

Really, the Mini is NOT a bad deal! Hell, I'm thinking of buying one myself (my first Apple-machine in fact). If you want to compare it to something, compare it to one of those Mini-ITX-machines that use a VIA-CPU.

Re:goodbye bank account

[imroy]

Alternatively, you could maybe just upgrade to 512M, then get a 512M thumbdrive (or iPod Shuffle!) for much less than the additional $350 they want to go from 512M to 1G internal. Set it up as RAM drive and you might be able to get some of the speed of full Gig of internal RAM for $200 less.

Not likely. You do realise that flash memory is pretty damn slow? And it has a limited lifetime, something like only 10k-100k erase cycles? You certainly wouldn't want to swap to it.

But clustering these things certainly sounds interesting, at least in small numbers. Especially considering the alternatives, like the briq. Put 6 or 7 mini's on an 8-port ethernet switch and you're only out $3.5K, tops. Stack them on top of each other and they'd still take up less space than a normal PC case. They're not overly powerful processors nowadays, but they're nothing to sneeze at. And if you're working on an easily parallelizable algorithm, e.g rendering, then you're laughing! I think we'll see a lot of small mini clusters on slashdot in the neat future.

Re:goodbye bank account

[darkpurpleblob]

Oh-- and let's not forget how you restart a PC (not that you have to do it much)! Click "start." Select "shut down." Now select "restart." Yeah, I would have found that.

You may have not found it, but apparently others did during usability tests when the taskbar was designed. Read the story.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Balp]

If my memory serves me correct, the Xerox machie also hade more that two mouse buttons, memory comes up with numbers like five or seven. Small round ugly buttons.

/ Balp

Re:goodbye bank account

[DrXym]

Any USB keyboard will work

Sadly this isn't true. I have several USB keyboards and only one works on my Mac. The other just sits there and doesn't respond at all. It works fine with XP & Linux though, so clearly it's in disagreement with OS X for some reason.

A secondary problem is the keyboard layout for PC keyboards are different from Mac keyboards. For example the #, " keys are different on my UK PC keyboard compared to my UK Mac keyboard. I assume there is enough information supplied in the USB plug and play handshake that the Mac could do a much better job and actually map the keys properly.

So unless Apple have fixed both problems there are going to be a lot of pissed off people.

Re:goodbye bank account

[zsau]

Pity Apple didn't take their own advice. Goddamn it's impossible to use a webbrowser on a Mac.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Compared to Win2K, the GUI is slow on ANY Mac running OSX, regardless of its level of performance. My dual 2.5Ghz G5 doesn't really feel faster than my dual 450Mhz G4.

And then you render something...

The speed of the G5 still makes me laugh out loud sometimes.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

YDL really isn't all that good. I can't actually think of a single reason why one should prefer it over OSX 10.3.

Some people are just not happy until they've buggered up their Mac, though.

Re:goodbye bank account

[SmittyTheBold]

Why the hearty recommendation of AppleCare?

I would hope the computer'd be reliable enough to stay functional through warranty, and adding 20% of the cost for an extended warranty seems like gambling an awful lot to me.

Re:goodbye bank account

[1u3hr]

Never mind that, now, today, SEVEN YEARS AFTER YOUR TANTRUM, you can build to order on Apple's web site.

Actually, it's taken Apple more like 20 years to let you specify anything at all. The mouse was about the last vestige of the fixed hardware policy. As for tantrum, no, I didn't abuse anyone, or call them childish names in CAPITAL LETTERS, I just went somewhere else that was a bit more customer-centric.

Do you really, really think that the price would have been that much lower if they had NOT put a mouse in the damn box?

Who knows or cares, as you might say. My point was that it was going to be quite a bit more expensive for me to buy a hard disk I would never use.

I don't know why you take this so personally. Go flame on some evangelism site.

Re:goodbye bank account

[soundonsound]

no, not as cute, but quite handy for those endogeeks among us (like me) who are trying to lose our protective layer of padding cultivated by hours and hours of sitting in the monitor's warm glowing comforting glowing glow. that's about the perfect sized thing to take to the gym.

Re:goodbye bank account

[soundonsound]

first off, it's control+click, and second, it's no harder than using the right mouse button. it's just a matter of habit, you get just as used to control+click after a while as you are used to right click. plus, really, you don't need it nearly as often anyway. it's not like you can't buy a nice two or more button usb mouse and use it with a mac. it's no different than chucking the piece of crap mouse that most manufacturers include with pc's out the window and plugging in your favorite mouse de jour.

Re:goodbye bank account

[myom]

I can imagine they will soon (perhaps on any upcoming smaller Mac fair) offer matching keyboards and mouses with a 2 button version, thus admitting they were wrong. Instead hiding it in the launch of a peripheral, not a main product like if a new 2-button mouse had been part of the Minimac)

Re:goodbye bank account

[soundonsound]

really? cause it kinda seems to me like i'm viewing this page in safari, with a metric crapload (cause, you know, that's slightly bigger than a standard crapload) of tabs open. ctrl+click isn't really an inconvenience. you're just USED to right click.

Re:goodbye bank account

[rastachops]

Maybe some people mistake it's name as iPod Truffle ;)

Re:goodbye bank account

[DrXym]

Sorry, that's not true. As I posted in response to someone else, I have a PC USB keyboard which absolutely doesn't work in the Mac. The Mac just ignores the keyboard like it isn't there. It may well be that most USB keyboards work, but some don't. I don't know if that was due to the keyboard having an extra row of multi-media buttons or not, but it doesn't work.

I have another keyboard which is a Logitech which does work (and I bought specifically because it had a Mac logo on the packaging) but OS X snarls up the key mappings so you get the Mac layout with a PC keyboard. I don't know what the US keyboards are like, but in the UK the PC / Mac layouts are sufficiently different that it is a pain because you must go hunting for euros, tildas, bars or whatnot. The key says one thing and they're actually somewhere else. If Apple are touting the ability to be able to plug-in your PC peripherals then it should give them the sane and expected behaviour.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

If there is one thing I hate, it's when moisture seeps in through the screw-hole.

Re:goodbye bank account

[zsau]

Well, it is an inconvenience, because it uses two hands, not one. I often have my second hand busy doing other things (I MEAN like enabling the insertion of food and/or drink into my mouth, or just relaxing inconveniently distant from my keyboard. I don't like being cramped up in a ball just to use my computer).

But that's not what I meant. What I meant was there's no way of selecting a link to make it the active element and Macishly use the main menu to do Macish stuff with it, like you can select a file in the Finder and Macishly use the main menu.

Sorry for not being quite clear.

Re:goodbye bank account

[bil]

780 Euros

Re:goodbye bank account

[at_slashdot]

I'm sorry, but when you buy Apple you still buy a closed system with proprietary HW,SW,formats, iTunes/iPod lockin, etc. What's free about that? The fact that they make use of free projects? That's freedom for them not for users.

Re:goodbye bank account

[doodlelogic]

Why is the sale of more Macs a problem for Bill Gates?

It reduces his liability to competition law challenges, and most customers will be buying his software anyway, in the form of Office for Mac.

Re:goodbye bank account

[skinfitz]

Irrelevant - if I may remind you of your statement:

"Notes for MS Bigots: The Atari ST shipped with a two-button mouse years before PCs even had mice."

You are clearly inferring that there were no mice for PC's. There were, and not "years after" the ST. I was there "in the day" and I agree, hardly anyone used a mouse on a PC, however you could go and buy one to use if you wanted, which is completely different to them not being available.

Re:goodbye bank account

[IvanXQZ]

I would assume that with Apple citing 80 GB as the HD limit that the Mini uses a laptop drive, so the ones you've got lying around probably won't work. It would help explain how they got it so small. Personally, I would have liked it a little larger and able to use a desktop drive.

Of course, I don't know this for sure, but all available evidence would seem to point to it.

Re:goodbye bank account

[IvanXQZ]

I'd say it's ambiguous. The article you cite states: "Adding memory (DRAM, VRAM) or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is not considered a modification to that Apple product."

What they seem to be saying is that if they say something is user-installable, you don't void your warranty by installing it. Until the Mini, every post-1990 Mac had user-installable RAM, and they seem to state this in the phrase "memory or other-user installable expansion products".

If they had instead said "memory or user-installable expansion products", then the Mini obviously would be in the clear. But since they seem to suggest that memory is a user-installable product, and since this article was clearly written before the Mini, I'd say the jury is out, since the Mini has different memory installation terms than all other Macs.

Re:goodbye bank account

[emilymildew]

Yeah, tabbing in browsers can be sort of annoying, but it has gotten MUCH better in the past couple of years than what I had experienced before.

The only thing I miss about Windows is that I could tab to a drop-down list and navigate through it without the mouse. That works sometimes on OS X, sometimes not.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is the thing there is some crow to be eaten. For years people (trolls to you) have asked why doesnt Apple build a box just like this. The answer from the Mac Faithful has been that such a box would kill the company not expand sales. I guess we will find out.

And yes I am buying one!

Re:goodbye bank account

[coachvince]

Another non-trivial note is that shipping costs for the minimac should be VERY low, whereas shipping for the "towering" Gateway case and box-o-lead CRT will be roughly $99(US), and add on about $60(US) more for the basic service plan.

It's price at checkout is $658.98 (US)

$500+shipping for a small form factor that does most of the same, looks nice, assumably (and arguably) uses less power, and doesn't leave me with yet another monitor to dispose of via eBay, is not bad compared to $700 for a ugly tower.

OK, I have towers I like, and they're great for CD or DVD servers, but I don't want EVERY PC in my house to be a tower. And when it comes to work, any space savings and simplification is good. So, even if they keep making this same model for 5 years, I would think about buying more of them each year (assumably with lower prices), until the school is filled with simple, identical, MiniMacs.

Re:goodbye bank account

[stratjakt]

Yes, I would buy a Mac in a heartbeat if I could A) tinker and upgrade it myself, or B) they charged a resonable price for the hardware I'm getting.

I can't get myself to pay more for a product just for "status". I won't buy an 80 dollar pair of designer jeans if I can get 4 pairs of Levi's for the same price.

I'm looking at MacMini, and it just isn't worth 500 bucks.

Re:goodbye bank account

[arminw]

...a problem for Bill Gates...

Almost all Windows users that get a Mac will never go back. This means that Mr. Gates will not sell them the latest and greatest version of Windows, nor will they sell Windows to the PC maker who also has lost a customer.

MS of course will still make $$$ from the Mac version of office, which by the way is very nice. MS monopoly postion will be diminished, but so will their revenues. With the Mac Mini, the age old excuse that Macs cost too much will finally go away.

Re:goodbye bank account

[porcupine8]

No, read my post again, where did I use the word "target"? I said: "I am in the market ..." I try to be pretty precise in expression although English is not my native tongue

Okay, you are right. But the post you were responding too was talking about nobody in the target market giving a fuck, so why does it even matter if you give a fuck?

I switched from Linux to OS X, and now that my boyfriend has used my computer and realized that OS X really is unix with a pretty GUI, he's switching too. (That'll probably happen about a year sooner thanks to the mini.) There are plenty of Linux users who don't care so much about freedom and propietary formats as they do about not liking Windows.

Re:goodbye bank account

[ratell]

According to Henry Norr's report on Macintouch http://www.macintouch.com/mwsf2005notebook.html
Upgrading the memory doesn't void your warranty.
I'll be waiting for more official confirmation, but it sounds like it may be the case that only issues directly caused by the memory upgrade won't be covered if you add RAM yourself.

"I went back to the booth later and got a little more info on upgrading the Mac Mini.

Apple "does not recommend" that users upgrade the memory themselves - you're supposed to have a service provider do it if you want to add more after purchase - but doing it yourself does not void the warranty unless you damage something. A booth person told me the memory slot is easily accessible once you get the case open."

Re:goodbye bank account

[Moofie]

"As for tantrum, no, I didn't abuse anyone, or call them childish names in CAPITAL LETTERS"

I didn't abuse you. I lampooned you. You're being silly, and I pointed that out.

"My point was that it was going to be quite a bit more expensive for me to buy a hard disk I would never use."

No, your point is that you still want to bitch about the one button mouse, even though it hasn't been an issue since 1991.

"I don't know why you take this so personally. Go flame on some evangelism site."

I'm not the one who posted my E! True Hollywood Story about how Apple tried to MAKE me buy a hard disk! Almost EIGHT YEARS AGO! *wrist to forehead*

Please, please, please, DON'T buy a Mac. Treasure your disdain for all products Apple. You're obviously the superior lifeform. Good for you. Go away.

Re:goodbye bank account

[at_slashdot]

There are plenty of Linux users who don't care so much about freedom and propietary formats

Unfortunatelly that's true. Oh, well, you'll pay more down the road and the computer and its software (and the companies that provides them) will control you and not the other way round, but you'll get a pretty GUI. Life is about trade-offs...

so why does it even matter if you give a fuck?

It matters if I give a fuck if the person next to me gives a fuck if you give a fuck... than companies will give a fuck too and will behave.

If people would be more wise will care more about open formats.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Nosferax]

Or while watching p0rn...

Re:goodbye bank account

[1u3hr]

Please, please, please, DON'T buy a Mac. Treasure your disdain for all products Apple.

Twat. I have a Mac now. I adminned some at a place I worked. Doesn't mean I've drunk the Kool-Aid. My point was simply that Apple had been bundling hardware for years, and pissing off people and driving away customers in the process; and that after 20 years they've finally come around to giving the customer choices and not just what Steve wants you to want.

Take some valium.

Re:goodbye bank account

[topham]

Don't know what you're talking about.

Seriously, I have a logitech keyboard hooked to my pc/mac (on an usb switch) and haven't noticed any issues with the keyboard.
(Ok, the lack of an Eject key, but that was rectified by mapping the media key to Eject).

WHat type of keyboard, and what language configuration do you have? (standard keys like ~, | work fine on this keyboard on either machine).

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Ooo... I love those things, especially with that cucumber sauce!

Oh, I thought you said Gyros. Never mind.

I'm pretty sure the previous AC was asking about dollars, not the funny slips of paper you commies have chosen to take the place of Franks, Marks, Pounds, Rock Salt, sheep, etc.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Moofie]

Steve has never, ever, ever, come to my house and taken away choices from me. Didn't. Ever. Happen.

You say you didn't drink the Kool-Aid...cool. Now put away the Hater-Aid.

Re:goodbye bank account

[1u3hr]

Now put away the Hater-Aid.

Read all your posts tomorrow and tell me who's the "hater". Anyway, that's it from me. Over to you for more ad hominems.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

My favorite kind of troll is the "How to increase Apple's market share" troll. This troll believes that if Apple makes their individual ideal device, they will double their market share. This is silly on its face. Troll, why don't you design a mp3 player. It can play ogg if you like. When, of course, it takes over the market by being snapped up by freedom fighters, then you can call up Steve Jobs and say, "Nyaah! You should have hired me when you had the chance, f head!"

Re:goodbye bank account

[lamz]

You're absolutely right. I used a three-button optical mouse on an IBM XT in 1985. (It only worked on a special, metal mouse pad which had tiny red horizontal lines and green vertical lines.)

I should have said something like "years before mice were regularly used by the majority of Wintel machines." Especially since even Atari 800s and Commodore 64s were PCs, and had third-party mice available.

Re:goodbye bank account

[lamz]

Douglas Englebart first demoed a mouse in 1968. The original had a horizontal wheel and a vertical wheel, and you had to tip it so as to only move one wheel at a time.

For those too wrapped up in the Xerox-Parc-invented-everything fantasy, (because it makes them feel better when it's obvious Microsoft invented very little,) Jef Raskin has an excellent and short essay about the early days with the Macintosh.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not a bad cheap computer if you look at what it's purpose is. Say you're Joe User who plays areound on the internet, writes the occasional document, listens to music and plays a game, and you got an ipod and this it's pretty cool and like Apple stuff. Now, you can get a decent mac for a decent price. He doesn't need a gig of ram (my father uses osx on an old g3 with only 256MB just fine). You get all the beefits of a mac without the extra bells and whistles. I don't think this computer is meant to be a cheap option for those of us who do more with their systems.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Moofie]

Who needs a hug? You do. C'mere, big guy.

There's a difference between hating and mocking. I was mocking you.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Pentomino]

The difference between the two mouse buttons was the first thing I taught my grandmother.

Or, more specifically, that if she wanted to experiment, then the safest way to do that was with the right mouse button. If she wants to "pick" something, use the left one, but if she wants to do anything more, try the right one. The advantage of context menus is that you don't have to scan the whole screen for the function you need.

But, programming a user interface where you don't need context menus, that's definitely a worthy cause.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Moofie]

I understand the advantages of contextual menus.

I can teach people the difference between left and right.

Do you understand that they are very, very infrequently designed well? Check your systray for the most obvious examples.

Programming a user interface where you don't need context menus has been done. By Apple. For 20 years. It works great.

Contextual menus are like caviar. Some people like 'em, nobody needs 'em.

Re:goodbye bank account

[MyDixieWrecked]

yeah, I actually had an ADB 2-button/scroll wheel mouse back in like 96/97 or so. Without drivers, the second button behaved as a shift-click (this is before the control-click context menus were available) and the mouse wheel was the up and down arrows, but the drivers let you customize it.

i didn't really like the feel of the mouse, but I mainly got it for playing starcraft and warcraft and marathon.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Jord]

Happy Hacker

Small keyboard with the control key in a more "proper" place and no caps lock. Great for a coder.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Baikala]

Try to be a little more sensible. People with motor related disabilities have some troubles keeping a botton pressed down while at the same time moving their mouse. With "right mouse drag" he means start draging with a right click, move the mouse without holding any button and use another right click to stop the draging and release whatever you were trying to drag.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno. I just priced out that PC without the CRT, but with all the other stuff upgraded to the Mac Mini's level, and it came to $734.96.

Re:goodbye bank account

[skinfitz]

If you think that was bad, check this out - the first mouse.(!)

Re:goodbye bank account

[spike2131]

Dude, contextual menus rock. I'm constantly anoyed by my Powerbook's lack of them. Without contextual menus I have to hunt around through all the different menus up top and try to find what I want. With contextual menus, I just right click and its there. What could be more simple?

Just one of the many ways in which the Macintosh UI is rediculously overrated.

Re:goodbye bank account

[DrXym]

That's why I said I don't know what US keyboards are like but UK PC / Mac keyboards have a different layout from each other. It's not a locale issue since the Mac is set to UK, it's simply that on the UK PC keyboard you hit Shift + 2 to get a double-quote, and on the Mac you hit Shift + the key to the right of 'L'. There are lots of other differences, such as the # own key on the PC keyboard which prints '\' on the Mac (to get # you do Option + 3), the and so on. The keyboard isn't at fault here, it's sending the raw keycodes, it's just that the Mac is interpretting them incorrectly according to the Mac keyboard layout. But that assumes that you are like me and have used enough US / UK keyboards of various types to guess the right key.

Now the Mac could fix this easily enough by offering a "I have a PC keyboard" checkbox on the System Prefs but it doesn't. Therefore the keys are all screwed up. That probably made no difference in the "old days" where you'd be weird to attach a PC keyboard but this new Mac explicitly says bring your own keyboard and mouse. And when people do it they'll find their keyboard has shifted all the symbols around which is hardly a good first impression.

And that's on the keyboard that works. The other one does nothing as I mentioned before.

The one good thing is that the multimedia keys on the Logitech work as expected. So I've trained it to eject the disc, change volume etc., but the mappings are a major pain.

Re:goodbye bank account

[FredFnord]

just imagine Apple capturing around 10% of the market

That would be awful! Since they currently have 62% of the market...

-fred

Re:goodbye bank account

[at_slashdot]

You know what I meant especially that I was talking about Linux, but go on play stupid, I refuse to believe that you really are.

Re:goodbye bank account

[at_slashdot]

It would be terrible for Apple, but great for music lovers, it would mean that there are other music players on market better and/or cheaper than iPods, also it would mean more competition. Anyway, relax, it's not very likely to happen in the near future.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent is not an insightful post, it's just going to provoke more flames and jeers. Man, I just don't see why troll posts like this get modded up to 5.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Meneudo]

That's why apple Keyboards have an eject button. No apple keyboard? Then you probably don't have an apple mouse, so just right-click and hit eject. No apple keyboard but still using ol' one button? Use the finder.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Dominic_Mazzoni]

Dude, contextual menus rock. I'm constantly anoyed by my Powerbook's lack of them. Without contextual menus I have to hunt around through all the different menus up top and try to find what I want. With contextual menus, I just right click and its there. What could be more simple?

Either click and hold, control-click, or use an external USB mouse or trackpad with a right button. That's what I do. No need to hunt through all of the menus!

Re:goodbye bank account

[toddestan]

Oh-- and let's not forget how you restart a PC (not that you have to do it much)! Click "start." Select "shut down." Now select "restart." Yeah, I would have found that.

Lets not forget how to eject a disk in MacOS. Drag it to the trash can - yeah I would of thought of that!

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

when you grab the disk the trash can turns into an eject symbol, so you might not have thought of that but if you "tried" to do something with the disk it would quickly become aparent

Re:goodbye bank account

[BenFaremo]

But why would I want to eject my keyboard?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you need a contextual menu? The only good reason is for when the standard function is too far away in the interface to be convenient. The BAD reason is when there IS no way to access that function in the standard interface.

Great.

So tell me, how do you propose to implement the option to download a text file from a link as opposed to opening it in your browser? Maybe a toggle in the menus, "clicking on links should [X] OPEN [ ] DOWNLOAD files"? Or are you going to force people to open the file and then save it?

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

When they realize that with a Mac they no longer have to worry about viruses, spyware and all the other windows problems...

Standard "I use Windows and have never had a virus or any spyware" post.

Using a Mac to avoid viruses and spyware is like amputating your genitalia because you're afraid of AIDS.

Re:goodbye bank account

[TheAncientHacker]

Three buttons, each dedicated with no shift-button, alt-button, option-button, apple-button, flower-button, ctrl-shift-button nonsense.

Re:goodbye bank account

[TheAncientHacker]

Further Notes for anti-MS Bigots:

Microsoft's first mouse (the green-eyed, steel-balled one) shipped in 1983 (before the Amiga or Atari ST or Macintosh but, I believe, a few months after the Apple Lisa), had two buttons and was available alone or bundled with Microsoft Word (for MS-DOS since Windows 1.0 hadn't shipped yet.)

Re:goodbye bank account

[hackstraw]

Actually, the gotcha with the gateway is the $100 rebate and the $99 shipping (no shipping with the Apple). So the grand total for that gateway will be $598.99 w/o the $100 you get back after a while to make the total of $498. Back to the Mac price.

Pluses with Gateway:

- A huge ass bulky monitor.

minuses with Gateway:

- Windows XP home edition, a more reasonable version of XP will cost you extra
- You need to buy extra software to make it work (virus scanner, and whatever else, don't use Windows)
- Its a gateway

I'd say they are relatively comparable in value.

Personal preference, I'd go with the Apple.

Re:goodbye bank account

[greggman]

Of course what you didn't mention is that EVEN THE DESIGNER OF THE MAC'S INTEFACE HAS BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS THE MAC SHOULD HAVE 2 MOUSE BUTTONS.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=&cat=&meta=&q=si te %3Aasktog.com+two+button+mouse

Re:goodbye bank account

[SnowDog74]

You may have not found it, but apparently others did during usability tests when the taskbar was designed.

Bad example... Note that the ignition slot in most cars doesn't have a label "Start" next to it... nor is it called the "On" key. Ignition has two states... on or off... and sometimes, some ignition slots actually have those positions labeled... "on", and "off."

Even worse.. many cars have the unergonomic habit of placing the ignition slot in the steering column, behind the wheel... out of view, perpendicular to your arm's orientation. Goony ergonomics... if you ask me. My car actually has the ignition in the dashboard, just to the right of the wheel, in plain view.

Oh, and it isn't labeled... but then, that also means it's not mislabeled.

Perhaps this begs a more important question... Why would you label the contextual menu item for access to all applications "Start"... It's clear that the computer is already turned on, so you're not telling the user anything useful... Start what, exactly?

Those who know what it's for don't need the label, and those who don't are only going to find it meaningless as it tells them absolutely nothing about what it does... nevermind the illogical nature of nesting the shut down function inside a menu labeled "Start".... the last logical place a user reliant on labels would think to look.

Oh I know... we'll call the ignition the "Off" key...

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

i have 22 button mouse and it still isn't enough buttons for me...

Re:goodbye bank account

[SnowDog74]

The funniest part about that story in the URL is that Microsoft tried to solve the problem of three uninformative function labels by reducing them to a one-size-fits-all label that is even more uninformative, given that it provides you no context for the variety of things hiding within the menu.

Put it this way... If a person isn't curious enough to explore three menus that very poorly describe where they lead, why would they be inclined to explore one button that tells them even less?

Apple's answer to this came in the form of the Dock. Probably realizing just how prevalent the use of desktop shortcuts had become, they decided to integrate the dock which... compared to XP, gives the user a wealth of information in one uniform lexicon that isn't very hard to grasp because one can immediately correlate the visual response with an action they performed that only someone lacking basic cognitive association functions could not interpret: 1. Available applications

The dock shows a series of icons, some of which may be familiar, others which give the user a good idea what they do... iPhoto, for example, is represented by an icon of a camera and a photograph.

2. State of an application

When an icon is clicked, it bounces, and eventually the application comes up. A couple of attempts at this and most people can deduce their clicking on said icon launched a particular app.

Once the app is launched and open, an indicator shows that it is running... the user can also make this correlation. Each application, once launched, has a file menu that is represented not by the word "File" but by the name of the application. It seems far more logical that the "quit" function for that app is under the app's name in the menu bar.. rather than "File"... which is where you find all file-related functions.

Contextual in OS X actually means contextual.

3. Advanced information

The more a user becomes familiar with OS X, they will find that the dock is the place to locate the application itself... the contextual menu for each icon has a "Show in Finder" function, as well as "Quit" or "Force quit".

By contrast, Windows continues to couch "Exit" under "File" and the only way to force-quit an application that's gone apeshit is to launch task manager... for the entry-level user, this may not be as immediately obvious as, well, looking at the application status icon.

Someone mentioned the eject function earlier... While in previous iterations of Mac OS, it was couched under "File" in the menubar or by drag-dropping to the trash, OS X is ingenius, again, with not only contextual menus but contextual icons...

Instead of, as another poster pointed out, showing you nine zillion indiscernable icons that are all redundantly represented in the menu... OS X has some icons that appear only when appropriate.

The best example is when you grab a removable volume/disk, and take it to the dock... in the trash can's place appears the universal "Eject" icon... the very same that can be found on any optical disk playback device.

Re:goodbye bank account

[good soldier svejk]

I would add that the day it made sense to have a two-button mouse over a one-button mouse was the day that contextual menus were invented, because that was the first time that a consistent meaning was applied to the second button.

You mean 1978? That is when Xerox introduced contextual menus. Not sure if they were the first. I want to know what ever happened to click-hold. Apple seems to have largely abandoned it.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an Apple keyboard and standard mouse attached to a KVM that is also attached to a WinXP machine. Trying to perform file move/copy operations in Windows Explorer is a challenge, to say the least.

Why not use the keyboard shortcuts? Ctrl-X, C, V.

Re:goodbye bank account

[scottgfx]

OK, how about... Humans should not internally consume iPod shuffle.

Re:goodbye bank account

[Nathan]

Dude, we called it an 'iPod' in 3rd grade. You're an adult now. It's called a 'ho-ho-dilly'.

Re:goodbye bank account

[darkpurpleblob]

Perhaps this begs a more important question... Why would you label the contextual menu item for access to all applications "Start"... It's clear that the computer is already turned on, so you're not telling the user anything useful... Start what, exactly?

Well, to start an application I would have thought.

Those who know what it's for don't need the label, and those who don't are only going to find it meaningless as it tells them absolutely nothing about what it does...

The Start label isn't entirely meaningless. The label is important for communication and documentation purposes - anything that instructs a user to use the button will need to call it something so the user knows that is indeed the button to hit, and labeling the button will give a user no doubts about what button to use.

Re:goodbye bank account

[DGregory]

Which makes it ideal to keep your coffee warm... :-D

Re:goodbye bank account

[hippo]

Looking at the picture of the internals on the design page of the mini site it looks like the top is spring-clipped onto the bottom. There's about 8 bendy hook things sticking up around the perimeter of the base. I guess you'll need a special tool to get it open (like the thingy you need to get a car radio out), or lots of knives.

Re:goodbye bank account

[doodzed]

I use a logitech bluetooth mouse with my powerbook and all the little buttons work out of the box. I find it easier to map mouse buttons and get it to do what I like than windows or linux.

Nice thing about a bluetooth mouse is: no dongle or cable. The range is also quite good.

Re:goodbye bank account

[abb3w]

A couple of us were looking at one today trying to figure out how to open the sucker

A Dremmel.

After that, you can figure out how it was supposed to open in the first place, for future reference. And yes, I have used this on gear before. =)

Re:goodbye bank account

[doggo]

" Yes, but right-click takes on a whole different meaning if you are left handed. I come from a multidexterous family and trust me one button mice make the world that much easier."

Humbug! I mouse both ways, on both Macs & PCs, I don't reconfigure my mouse every time I switch hands. Why? Just push the correct button. It's not a problem, unless you can't chew gum and walk at the same time.

Re:goodbye bank account

[dustmite]

Compare to This ... Apple is still overpriced

No, not really, not if you also factor in the fact that Windows PCs are SHAIT. They suck. So if you want to spend a little less and have a much worse experience using computers, go for it. You're comparing the price of an apple (no pun intended) to the price of an orange, I'm afraid. I won't make the usual cliched car analogies but they do apply too. I don't see how you can compare a clunky, poorly designed, hacky, boring, Windows XP, virus and spyware-ridden character-less plain high-maintenance machine that drains the life spirit out of you and makes using a computer about as much fun as having your teeth drilled, to using a well-designed, well-engineered, aesthetically pleasing machine that actually helps make the frikkin 8+ hours a day I have to spend behind a computer more enjoyable. You can spend less on cheaper anything in life, but you get what you pay for. You can't even compare the two as you're trying to do. And if you don't believe me, then you haven't even used a Mac have you. Try it out for a month. Man, you have to pay me to use Windows, and that's not even a joke, seriously, I wouldn't be touching Windows unless my boss was paying me to do it.

Re:goodbye bank account

[dwightk]

yeah, I guess that at this price point the Apple Care is more optional... I'm used to recommending computers that are $1000+ ;-)

Two things

[Anonymous Coward]

1. How much will the OS cost for the mini mac?

2. Does the iPod Shuffle have a screen?

Re:Two things

[stupidfoo]

Can't you at least read the blurb?

The iPod Shuffle is pack-of-gum sized, no screen

Re:Two things

[guet]

I imagine the OS will come with it, just like every other mac product.

Since it ships with the iLife software, hopefully they'll give you something to run that on : )

No screen on the iPod shuffle.

Re:Two things

[Jotham]

Most of the mac sites have the keynotes in point form. To answer you questions:

1) mini mac comes with OS and iLife (iWorks $79) -- which I think puts it under an corporate workstation microsoft licence cost... how much does Office cost again?

2) No screen... playlist or shuffle/autofill

Re:Two things

[Reverberant]

How much will the OS cost for the mini mac?

$0.00

Does the iPod Shuffle have a screen?

Wow... I know ./'ers usually can't be bothered to read the linked article, but you would at least hope they would read the Posting. (here's a hint: "... and no screen." )

Re:Two things

[Anonymous Coward]

See, that was a joke... since the summary felt the need to state it twice in the same sentence.

Re:Two things

[ericdano]

1. Apple's come with the OS installed.

2. No. Look at www.apple.com

Re:Two things

[Anonymous Coward]

You should probably also know that Slashdotters are notorious for overreacting to obvious jokes.

Re:Two things

[Anonymous Coward]

it wasn't a joke, it was just stupid

Slashdotters, like most people, find stupid jokes really annoying

Re:Two things

[MH_Harry_Hood]

I would say RTFA but this is slashdot. Yes of course it comes with the OS (and iLife too) and yes it has some kind of display

Re:Two things

[Anonymous Coward]

Make up your mind. Was it a joke, was it stupid, or was it a stupid joke? I see it as a joke.

Re:Two things

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Nothing, it comes with it

2. No.

Re:Two things

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it has no display. Hence the words "no screen" and "no screen."

Re:Two things

[AC-x]

>How much will the OS cost for the mini mac?

>$0.00

Actually I think you'll find there's a yearly subscription fee for OSX.(n++)

:)

Re:Two things

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an idiot.

POO!

Re:Two things

[Anonymous Coward]

Honest question since I haven't paid much attention to owning a Mac: are upgrades to MacOS free too? Or do you have to pay for those? If the latter, how widely are they pirated (no flames please)?

Re:Two things

[Anonymous Coward]

What that last one a joke? I don't know! I can't tell what's real any more!! AAAAHHHHHHHHHH

Re:Two things

[squiggleslash]

Honest question since I haven't paid much attention to owning a Mac: are upgrades to MacOS free too? Or do you have to pay for those? If the latter, how widely are they pirated (no flames please)?

Minor upgrades are free and can be installed automatically via software update.

Major upgrades, eg. x.x.0 releases, are paid for. They usually (well, Jaguar and Panther) cost $130 or so, or $200 for a large bloc of licenses to use at home. As for piracy, I don't believe they are widely pirated, no, at present, but probably will be if the notoriously cheapskate PC crowd migrates over to the Mac en-mass.

Re:Two things

[generic-man]

I've met several Mac users who pirate all their software including the OS. I also see a lot of Slashdot comments that advise buying everything with the educational discount ($70 for OSX versus $130 without the discount) regardless of whether or not you meet the requirements. Apple doesn't check in any significant way.

Apple tends not to pursue pirates. The margins on their hardware are that good, and enough people buy the software legit, that it doesn't hurt Apple's bottom line enough for them to care.

Re:Two things

[Phillup]

Like any good drug dealer... the first hit is free.

Re:Two things

[cayenne8]

" I've met several Mac users who pirate all their software including the OS. I also see a lot of Slashdot comments that advise buying everything with the educational discount ($70 for OSX versus $130 without the discount) regardless of whether or not you meet the requirements. Apple doesn't check in any significant way."

Another option is to buy off eBay. I just recently got Panther for like $65 or so plus shipping. All the original discs, and manuals in box for about half the price....plus, no tax.

Re:Two things

[gamgee5273]

Much closer to 18 months, actually, and that was the case even before Mac OS X. Apple is releasing a major update every 18 months (roughly) to the OS just as it has for almost 10 years.

Re:Two things

[loraksus]

They cost money, and come out way more often than Microsoft upgrades. They are also much more significant. Windows 95 to 98 to Me? Not much of a difference, a couple added things, fixes, etc, but nothing really set one apart from the other.

That said, the updates (and everything else) is very widely pirated.
You'll notice one thing about mac users, generally those who file share, etc are not just leeches, they have nicer pipes to upload through as well. "PC Warez" (haven't used that word in a while, sorry) just seems so cold nowadays, Mac "download" sites seem to be more personal, as if you went to a swap meet and someone said, "Sure, I'll make you a copy" or if you were on a bbs 15 years ago. /anyways...

Well....

[JoeLinux]

Technically, we now have an iPod for $99 now...technically.

Anyone else dissapointed?

Re:Well....

[lukewarmfusion]

Not at all. I don't want to spend hundreds on an mp3 player... but I want the space of an iPod. This isn't quite as much as I'd hoped, but it's close.

Creative put out a USB MP3 player that I really liked... it was a lot like this, but the storage space was sadly lacking. We're talking 32-128MB for this price range.

By the time I find a need to exceed 512MB or 1GB of storage, I'll have a chance to get back and refill/reload.

Not for everyone, but I think it's right for me. (at least, until I see pics and specs)

Re:Well....

[timeOday]

Well, I don't think it will be an "iPod" killer, so to speek.

On the other hand, this is the first iPod that will be really well suited for running and biking. It's light enough, cheap enough, and all solid state. $99 for a 512 meg player isn't bad, last I checked.

If it has separate buttons for skipping between albums vs. skipping between songs, it might not be too hard to navigate 512 meg's worth of music without a screen.

Re:Well....

[Anonymous Coward]

What were you expecting monkies to fly out of your butt for $50?

Re:Well....

[eln]

No, not really. My wife recently bought a pack of gum sized MP3 player, and it's really cool. It was only 50 bucks, but it had only 128 MB of space on it, so half a gig for $100 is a pretty good deal.

I think the iPod is a little too bulky to carry around, and I certainly don't envision any time where I'll need multiple hours of music at my disposal in my portable music player, so the little tiny MP3 players with less capacity are perfect in my opinion.

Re:Well....

[emilymildew]

Wait, you want the storage space of an iPod, and the features of an iPod, but not the price tag?

No wonder you were disappointed at this keynote. Why didn't they just provide THAT?

Re:Well....

[FatAlb3rt]

I picked up the Lexar Jumpgear usb mp3 player in Nov (amazon for $40) with a 1GB mem stick for $40 from Dell. Plus the memory is removeable, so //when// the memory sticks go on sale again, I can pick up a couple more before I get to Apple's price point for their 1 GB model.

Re:Well....

[darc]

Well yeah, but not how you'd think. The apple store site says "Do not eat iPod shuffle" and I was looking forward to chewing on it.

Re:Well....

[d-ude]

Do not eat iPod shuffle.

I saw that too. What, $99 and I still can't eat it? For that kind of money it should have a fruity taste as well.

Re:Well....

[bynary]

Yeah, I want the status, refinement, and performance of an Aston Martin, but I only want to pay $12,000 for it.

Re:Well....

[lukewarmfusion]

Sorry... I must have been a little unclear about that... I want more storage than the 32MB USB players, but I don't want the price tag of a 20GB iPod. So an in-between USB player with an in-between price point and an in-between storage capacity.

Which is pretty much what they're offering now.

Re:Well....

[jfengel]

Well, I'll miss having a screen. The primo thing about the iPod is its excellent interface. This doesn't really have an interface.

I use a no-name player which is fraught with bugs and unpleasantness, and it cost $50 for a measly 128M. But it does have a screen, so I know what's being played. That means a fair bit to me, since I use it mostly to listen to recorded books and I like knowing what chapter I'm in.

I also need it since I can't store an entire book all at once and need to know what to shuffle in and out. The half-gig iPod would go a long way to solving that problem, but I'll still tend to store partial-books on it (the one I'm listening to and the first part of the next one, for example.)

And I get more than twelve hours out of my single AA battery.

Nonetheless, I am SORELY tempted by this, if for no other reason than Apple's it-just-works reputation.

Re:Well....

[Reignking]

Do not taunt IPodShuffle.

Re:Well....

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds like you are more in the market for an iPod mini than the shuffle. You'd get 4GB of storage, a nice interface and screen, Audible support, and you won't be adding spent batteries to your local waste stream.

Re:Well....

[shayne321]

I'm still baffled why people stick themselves with an MP3 player with internal memory.. Do what I did, get yourself an el cheapo Nex IIe player which uses compact flash. I got mine for $80 on ebay two years ago - current ones are going for $40. It doesn't have the "geek appeal" of owning an iPod, but hey, take the $300 you save and put it towards a Mac Mini. As a bonus my camera uses compact flash too, so I can mix and match cards as I need more memory in one device or the other. 512MB compact flash cards are cheap these days, and you CAN get the higher capacity microdrive ones, though they'll kill your battery life.

Re:Well....

[Anonymous Coward]

Your not making a lot of sense. Take the $300 you save? The new iPod shuffle is only $99, holds more, is smaller, and is lighter. Or, yes, spend the extra $300 and get 100 time more space if that's important to you.

Re:Well....

[jfengel]

True 'nuff, but there's a difference between what I'd like and what I can afford. Or rather, the price point I'd like to hit. I _could_ spend 1/3 of my monthly mortgage on an iPod mini, and I'd probably be really happy. If I cared more about my tunes I could really see it thrilling me, as it thrills many of my friends. But for a hundred bucks, the minor inconveniences make a damn near perfect price point.

Re:Well....

[bynary]

Well, I don't think it will be an "iPod" killer, so to speek.

Apple is entering an entirely different segment of the market here. This is not a device that is meant to compete with the iPod. It is meant to gain market share for Apple in the Flash MP3 player market.

Re:Well....

[cakefool]

then buy a good quality used kit car - handbuilt, massively powerful and sweet looking.

Re:Well....

[Phillup]

Dude, that is one really... really irritating web site!

Re:Well....

[djtripp]

Well if it looks like a Chicklet, does it taste like one, and then is it reusable, and if it is, do I have to store it in its wrapper, or can I use anythinh?

Re:Well....

[Phillup]

And, how well will your solution work with iTunes?

Especially compared to an iPod...

They are not just selling one thing. They are selling a lot if inter-related things... you can't take it out of context and understand the product(s).

Re:Well....

[Phillup]

Maybe if you phone in your order you can talk them into throwing in the gum.

;-)

Re:Well....

[jlapier]

What I'm dissapointed with is that it doesn't seem to have an FM radio, much like the iPod and the Mini - why is it that there are a ton of more generic mp3 players that have an FM receiver built-in, but Apple doesn't bother with it?

Re:Well....

[cayenne8]

" And, how well will your solution work with iTunes?"

First, I have to admit, I'm a noob to the mac world...just got a used iBook awhile back. I've really enjoyed OSX so far, but, I find the one thing that to me is the least useful, is iTunes. I'm probably going to get an iPod...but, doubt I will use it much with the iBook. I've got most all my CD's ripped to my media box in FLAC (I prefer good lossless in the living room on the 'good' stereo). I'l most likely just write a script to convert to a pretty good bit rate mp3..and use something like gtkpod to load the iPod.

From my limited use of iTunes...it seemed to me unless you were going to actually BUY songs from it...not much use. It didn't seem very intuitive when just to test it out...I had a hard time just simply getting it to rip a song from a CD into mp3 format.

Again, I'll admit...I'm new to iTunes...but, it seemed to get in the way of just ripping songs to mp3 files. And, if I'm going to BUY music...I sure don't want an inferior lossless copy of the song for my permanet copy. I'd rather have as good as I can get for the original....and I can then rip it to lossless for listening environments where you cannot hear the difference...(car, portable, etc).

I'll go play with it more...but, from what I've experience with the mac world...iTunes isn't a driving factor in my music..too limiting...

Re:Well....

[lukewarmfusion]

I'm not a Mac user, I don't buy music online, and I don't own an iPod. But I use iTunes as my music player and library. It's amazingly easy to rip music, burn CDs, set up playlists, search my music, update metadata, and so on.

I know I sound like an Apple fanboy/PR rep/salesman/whatever but it's one of the few end-user software products I've ever been evangelical about (others that come to mind include Ad-aware, Firefox, Google Toolbar for IE, and some smaller utilities).

Re:Well....

[Anonymous Coward]

I've really enjoyed OSX so far, but, I find the one thing that to me is the least useful, is iTunes.

I always thought iTunes was overrated by Mac users because they've never had good alternatives like PC users have had. When Apple released the first version of iTunes ("Rip, mix, burn. Do it on a Mac"), Mac users finally discovered something that PC users had been doing for over a year with apps like MusicMatch Jukebox (before it sucked), and Windows Media Player 7. And while iTunes initially sucked donkey balls (it's much nicer now), many Mac users thought it was the greatest app ever.

That said, I think the current version of iTunes is a nice music player/manager. However, it's not so nice at ripping and encoding mp3s. The default mp3 encoder is awful. If you want to use iTunes to encode mp3s, change its encoder to LAME.

Re:Well....

[sejanus]

you had trouibles ripping a song from CD into MP3?

here's how to do it

1) insert CD
2) Click "import"

gosh. that was hard

Re:Well....

[porcupine8]

Probably because most iPod users are trying to avoid the crappiness that is most FM radio these days.

Though I was surprised that they didn't do the satellite bit.

Re:Well....

[Anonymous Coward]

then they would have had to cut the iCuteness tax too much, and Mac users would be outraged.

Re:Well....

[jo_ham]

I want a 6TB iPod for $99, is that too much to ask?!

Gievn that the dollar is shitty right now compared to the pound, I could pick up an iPod shuffle for about £50 the next time I'm in the states.

That is /cheap/.

Re:Well....

[cayenne8]

:-)

I'll go back and look at it. I was looking for 'rip' for something like that...wouldn't have thought to look for 'import'.

Just from being from the Linux world where you rip songs off a CD....terminology difference...

Coool!

[rootus-rootus]

This is a very good thing, now I can afford a mac ;-)

Re:Coool!

[Anonymous Coward]

now I can afford a mac

Maybe so, but it is still a mac that is made for a little girly-man!.

Re:Coool!

[Anonymous Coward]

so, for nerds, basically?

iCaramba

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot Poll - New iSomethingOrOther 8105 / 28%

Cant Steve Jobs hire a better marketing department and quite saying I and say we if he really means collaberation.

iCaramba - Bart Simpson 2005

Re:iCaramba

[winkydink]

You're missing the point. It's all about Steve. All Steve all the time. Everyone else is supporting cast

Re:iCaramba

[Kazymyr]

iDonthavealife

Mac Mini

[deviator]

Nice. These types of things at these pricepoints are the types of things that can change the world - every kid & teenager could end up with one, using their Mom & Dad's hand-me-down Keyboard/Video/Mouse.

Re:Mac Mini

[rayde]

i agree. most people have always agreed that mac os x is superior, but price has always been the sticky issue. with price becoming more realistic, perhaps apple can start winning back its market share.

i think this is just the beginning. if apple stays in this market, we'll see more powerful iterations of the mac mini in a similar price point with more powerful features down the road.

kudos apple!

Re:Mac Mini

[jm92956n]

I understand $500 is a new low price for a Mac, but is it so low that they couldn't include a keyboard and a mouse?

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, wouldn't you automatically replace the one-button mouse anyway?

Re:Mac Mini

[Hungry Student]

I agree, this is great, however, with two USB slots and no PS2 ports, a USB hub at least will be required, especially if existing USB peripherals are needed. That said, this is a good move for Apple, right market, right price, should reap rewards. The noise reduction is also rather spiffy, add that to the fact that this box certainly wouldn't be aesthetically at odds in a lounge, Mac OS X Media Edition anyone?

Re:Mac Mini

[blackmonday]

I love this mini mac, but you need a usb keyboard mouse. Your Dell keyboard won't cut it. They do sell USB/PS2 adapters though...

Re:Mac Mini

[Xzzy]

That's not the point, the point is it makes it marketable as a PC replacement. A cheap replacement.

Apple started hooking PC users in with the iPod, now they can reel them in with a plug and play replacement.

Gotta admit it's pretty clever. ;)

Re:Mac Mini

[mithras the prophet]

It's even better than one-button. Steve is officially selling the zero-mouse-button Mac.

Re:Mac Mini

[abb3w]

every kid & teenager could end up with one, using their Mom & Dad's hand-me-down Keyboard/Video/Mouse.

Apple is USB only, no PS/2, so less likely hand-me-down on Keyboard or Mouse. Going El Cheapo for that via Newegg adds $20, including shipping.

Re:Mac Mini

[slart42]

Yeah - That's what i like about the Mac Mini. It kinda brings back what has been missing for all those years since C64s, Atari STs and Amigas died. A Cheap, Simple, "home" computer, just being nothing more or less then a computer. How many of you slashdotters were introduced to the world of programming, gaming or whatever you are up to on such a kind of machine?

Re:Mac Mini

[cosmic_0x526179]

I like the mac mini, but...

Can I put more RAM in it ? That is the question most on my mind now. The HD is more than sufficient, but I would LOVE to have 1GB of ram in it.

The other thing is that price point almost makes it a WalMart/KMart/Target/BestBuy kind of device. Now wouldn't that be interesting.

Re:Mac Mini

[BasilBrush]

Buy a Mac keyboard to go with it, and you get two more USB connectors right there.

Re:Mac Mini

[cosmic_0x526179]

How long will it take someone (Apple ?) to bundle a cheap flat screen, a white keyboard and a mouse in similar packaging ? I bet the prototypes are being done even as we speak.

Re:Mac Mini

[PriceIke]

Maybe now Logitech will get off their asses and start releasing OSX drivers for their low end USB keyboards.

Re:Mac Mini

[slart42]

>can i put more RAM in it?

quote from apple.com:

256MB of PC2700 (333MHz) DDR SRAM, supports up to 1GB

Re:Mac Mini

[caino59]

you got that right!

ever since i saw the rumor, i've been waiting for this confirmation.

I'll be placing my order asap - due to my place of employ, I qualify for a discount.

what's better than a cheap mac with os x? a cheaper cheap mac ;oD

Re:Mac Mini

[Andy_R]

Yes. It's expandable to 1Gb.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it can hold up to 1 GB of RAM.

Re:Mac Mini

[Jerrry]

I understand $500 is a new low price for a Mac, but is it so low that they couldn't include a keyboard and a mouse?

The keyboard and mouse aren't what I worry about--the amount of RAM is. The default configuration ships with 256MB. I know from experience that Mac OS X runs like a dog in this amount of RAM. It really needs 512MB to run well, especially on a 1.25GHz (or 1.42) G4.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

any word on if the mac mini has an user serviceable parts/features.... (ram upgrades for example)?

Re:Mac Mini

[SilentChris]

I think you meant "sell". As for the mini itself, some design choices intrigue me. 80 GB hard drive on the $599 model and size (good), no keyboard or mouse (huh?) I can see wanting to save costs, but what happens when grandma/grandpa use the "hand me down" PS/2 keyboard and mouse?

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

No big deal, for $500 you can set up a nice computer from parts, if you dont count the periphials.

Of course you have to pirate WinXP... and that would be illegal O.o

Re:Mac Mini

[BWJones]

The other item that makes these particularly interesting that everyone is missing is that they could be great little servers. I have been using a G3 based iMac for a page that routinely serves up 45k hits/day and a served up a recent Slashdotting with 450k hits/day without a hiccup. That was a 400Mhz G3, so I wonder what two or three of these Mac Mini's with a KVM switch could do for very little money.

I've got my order in.

Re:Mac Mini

[mmkkbb]

how can something as generic as a usb keyboard not work with a standard usb hid driver? that's embarassing for either the driver or the keyboard maker

Re:Mac Mini

[milkman_matt]

I love this mini mac, but you need a usb keyboard mouse. Your Dell keyboard won't cut it. They do sell USB/PS2 adapters though...

That's ok though, as they said it doesn't come complete. You'll need a monitor too. USB k/b+mouse wouldn't be too much of an inconvenience, nor would a converter. Personally though, I think if I were going to get one of these i'd just throw down a couple extra bucks for a bluetooth k/b+mouse and save myself a USB port or two.

My vision of this system is that it's sitting on top of my desk with a bluetooth setup for navigation and input, the only cables I'd have on this thing would be power, monitor and speakers. and the only reason it would actually be on my desk instead of behind it or something is so I could swap CDs and DVDs. Hell, it'd be like having an external USB disc drive on your desk, only smaller and it does a lot more :)

I would love one of these systems, and I think I may just pick one up for my g/f who's been wanting a mac to tool around on.

Re:Mac Mini

[timeOday]

It's certainly an interesting idea. I think its competition will be laptops.

For $699 you can get a Dell Laptop. $700 is a lot more than $500 percentagewise, but the laptop gives you a 14" LCD display, and a keyboard and mouse that you'll have to buy separately for the iMac. And then, the laptop is fully integrated and can run off battery power.

I know some people still think of laptops exclusively for those often on the road, but falling costs have changed that. Laptops are a convenient way to get a fairly small, complete, integrated system - and the price premium is no longer very large, if high performance and feather-light weight aren't crucial.

Re:Mac Mini

[pfoorion]

Does anyone else think it's funny that under the build-to-order options on the mini's Tech Specs page, the Audio BTO option is "Apple iPod"?

Re:Mac Mini

[BawbBitchen]

I have an ibook and for shits, grins and giggles I pluged in my mini-usb keyboard from my PC server. Worked just fine. Windows key mapped to the Apple key. No issues at all. The only thing that was missing was the FKeys for volumes, CD eject.

Re:Mac Mini

[TheKidWho]

Ok... RTFA!!!

It was both DVI and VGA, and you can buy a cheap $20 adapter so you can also get composite video and svideo out from it.

That Gateway runs XP, nuff said. Either way, it only has a CDrom drive, no burner. Secondly upgradable? hah it only has 3 pci slots not even an AGP. Almost anything you can upgrade on htat POS with PCI you can do with Firewire.

Crippled OS? No. Apple only has two versions of their OS, OS X Server, and OS X. It is exactly the same as the OS running the powermacs and ibooks and mac minis.

Re:Mac Mini

[Jayzz]

Don't worry, it comes with a VGA adapter.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

For $699 you can get a Dell Laptop.

Don't forget the tons of money you'll have to spend repairing the Dell. Dell's desktops are good, but man, their laptops are real POS's....

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

It's like, half a Cube.

Re:Mac Mini

[nek]

Not crippled at all. In fact, Apple has never sold a crippled version of their OS.

Re:Mac Mini

[cowbutt]

Just use of of these - two PS/2 devices into one USB port. You can probably find them at a computer fair for much less than Maplin sell them for, too.

Re:Mac Mini

[Chang]

From the specs:

VGA video output (using included adapter) to support analog resolutions up to 1920 x 1080 pixels

Re:Mac Mini

[sensate_mass]

It takes 1 PC2700 dimm, can handle a max of 1gb. Don't buy it from Apple, though - they want $425 for a 1gb stick, which is available elsewhere for ~$160.

Re:Mac Mini

[vertinox]

Seeing it for the first time a little voice in my head said "MY NEW FILE SERVER!" really loudly. Just set up VNC, SSH or Telnet (gah) on it and run it without keyboard, head, or mouse. The wireless option would be nice, but not needed. I could throw 20 of them in the closet without a dent in space.

However I would have to be able to crack it open and put a larger hard drive in like you can with standard macs. I wonder if that is possible with this version?

Perhaps heat would be an issue though like the old G4 cubes.

Re:Mac Mini

[IamTheRealMike]

with price becoming more realistic, perhaps apple can start winning back its market share.

That's a good thing because .... ?

If you think a powerful Apple would be any less evil than a powerful Microsoft is, you need to step outside the RDF for a bit

Re:Mac Mini

[loid_void]

using Dad's hand-me-down Keyboard/Video/Mouse.

and guitar

Re:Mac Mini

[Matt Clare]

"And yes, Mac mini will take advantage of your two-button USB mouse with scroll-wheel and your favorite USB keyboard. Just plug them in."

Read: Dude, ditch you're Dell, we'll make it easy!

Re:Mac Mini

[Rubbersoul]

Also, it only has DVI out, so an adapter for RGBS would be needed if you plan to use an old CRT.

All told, you're going to spend about 600-700 bucks for a fully working system.

hook up your DVI or VGA display (adapter included).

Re:Mac Mini

[rusty_rusty_rusty]

Has anyone found a picture or mention of the external power supply for this thing? The power supply for the original Power Mac G4 Cube was rather bulky, I assume in this day and age, the suppy for the Mac mini more closely resembles that of an iBook/PowerBook, but was wondering if anyone knows. Product pictures on Apple's site don't seem to show.

Re:Mac Mini

[Moofie]

Apple finally delivers a $500 Mac, and people whine that it doesn't have a kb and a mouse.

Guess what: It doesn't include a 30" HD Cinema Display either. You also don't get to complain that the included mouse only has one button.

Go to Fry's and spend $10 on a USB keyboard and mouse. Damn...just goes to show you that you can't please everybody.

Re:Mac Mini

[archen]

Maybe they figure all those people who bitch about the one button mouse can finally get their own. We're reaching a saturation point in America where we're only going to need the actual box - most of us already have a monitor/keyboard/mouse, and most people I know already dumped the default ones that came with the computer and got something better.

After having to use the "puck" mouse with the no numberpad keyboard, I think I'll pass on apple periperals. In any event I'm going to wait for the second generation... or maybe when the third generation comes out so I can get the second generation cheap.

Re:Mac Mini

[Jhan]

What I can't quite make out is if the MiniMac is fanless? I'm running my own domain (DNS/Mail/Web/etc.) on a noise-ish computer in my bedroom and have been checking out silent machines for a couple of years. My next buy was going to be - grudgingly - a pay-through-your-nose HushPC.

The new MiniMac looks like it could be fanless. The front and sides seems to be hermetically sealed, but there are these ridges on the back that look suspisciously like air intakes/outlets. ...or are they just radiator fins?

If this is a sub-BTX 1.5ish MHz PPC $600 machine w. FireWire that is <blink><yell><explode part="head"> utterly silent</explode></yell></blink> there is nothing, repeat nothing on the market that can compete with this. I'm getting five.

Re:Mac Mini

[rusty_rusty_rusty]

Sorry to follow up my own posted, but there is a picture of the power supply here: http://www.apple.com/hardware/gallery/mac_mini_jan 2005_480.html It looks like a little white brick, about the same length as the Mac mini, and about 1/3 of the width.

Re:Mac Mini

[GiMP]

You can attach an external firewire drive. Of course, that affects the "sexy" aspect. I'm sure it takes normal 2.5" drives inside, if you can get it open.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck that. Go to Fry's and spend $149 on a faster machine (2GHz Athlon) that comes with a keyboard, a mouse, and Linux pre-installed. Maybe it's not on sale today, gee, then it's $249. Half the price. The Windows version is $349. Hello? $499 ain't inexpensive anymore. And "pretty" isn't necessarily worth $250.

Re:Mac Mini

[Rew190]

Hmmm, why don't you just save the time and say that you believe any and every large-ish corporation is evil?

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm. I was really excited about the prospect of a cheap small Mac for use as a TV room computer (streaming video to the Mac and playing it on a large screen). But after seeing it - well, it just looks wrong to me. I'm not sure how to quantify it - I think the dimensions seem strange.

Re:Mac Mini

[ender-]

I was also thinking that it would make a nifty little server. Now all Apple needs to do is make some external HD enclosures [USB & Firewire], so you can snap them together and make a nice little integrated, expandable unit.
I think it'd be a bitchin' little media server. Or any other server that needs lots of HD capacity but not too much data-transfer speed.

Re:Mac Mini

[nelsonal]

Perhaps they should house the whole thing in a white housing, and give it a catchy name? Ok, well the screen isn't exactly cheap, but they are pretty nice. Oh and you have to buy a faster processor to get one.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't try to tell me with a straight face that a $700 Dell laptop will be usable. What a piece of shit those things are.

Re:Mac Mini

[sydsavage]

Also, it only has DVI out, so an adapter for RGBS would be needed if you plan to use an old CRT.

It ships with a converter. You should really check your facts before troll^h^h^h^h^hposting.

Apple still isn't cheap, they're just a little closer to affordable.

Well, the crappy Dell you keep pointing to is actually $499. Your $349 price is after mail-in rebate. By the time you factor in having to put up with that virus/spyware vector posing as an operating system, the Mac is a much better deal in many peoples mind.

How crippled is the version of OS/X that ships with Mac Mini? I was to understand it's to be somewhat like XP Home vs Pro.

Now you're just outright lying. Please. Show me a link anywhere that mentions a stripped down version of OS X. Else, begone Troll!

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

For $999 you can get an Apple Laptop. $1000 is a lot more than $700 percentagewise, but the laptop gives you a 12" LCD display, and a useable operating system that doesn't come with the Dell Laptop.

Re:Mac Mini

[gunnk]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that putting Apple in Microsoft's position would be a good thing. What WOULD be a good thing for everyone -- whether you use Windows, OS X, or Linux -- would be for Apple to have a larger marketshare than it does currently. Why? Because competition in the OS marketplace is GOOD. It would be a much healthier market if Microsoft only had, for example, 60% of the market.

Markets without a clearly dominant player tend to be more innovative, more dynamic, and more responsive to the needs of their customers.

Apple may or may not be "less evil" than Microsoft, but regardless of that, real competition is still a Good Thing.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

does anyone know if there is a way to get optical output for sound (5.1 for movie watching) all I see is a headphone jack in the back..?

Re:Mac Mini

[rho]

Jesus... Slashdot is the new home for the perpetually whiny.

8 years ago, it was "why doesn't Apple have a sub-notebook?" Now everybody wants a huge, testicle-frying Super-notebook.

6 years ago, it was "why doesn't Apple have a server?" Well, golly, Apple's server offerings kick everybody else's ass, but of course, since you actually have to pay money for them, some people bitch about them.

2 years ago, it was "if only Apple sold a cheap headless Mac, I'd buy one!" Okay, your time is now, hero.

Some people are never satisfied. You got what you wanted--now you want more? If they included a mouse, you'd bitch about how it was the 1-button Apple mouse, or you'd bitch that the keyboard wasn't wireless.

Buy your own goddamn keyboard and mouse and STFU.

Re:Mac Mini

[MasterOfUniverse]

And more imporantly, this will drive Microsoft to 'innovate'. Microsoft have been monopoly for too long, competition is always healthy. I bet this will force them to respond. And since apple is a complete ly different beast, they can't abuse thier power on them. All they can do is work on thier product now. Ha!

Re:Mac Mini

[zonker]

yeah, taiwan is watching... the knockoffs are coming soon...

Re:Mac Mini

[Trurl's Machine]

What I can't quite make out is if the MiniMac is fanless?

I'm typing this right from the showroom in mini-MWSF in Paris. Silent work is also quite important for me. What can I say is that Mini Mac is totally silent when it works (I literally did press my ear to it). Maybe it has a fan that kicks in once in a while, like in iBooks, but when it just runs - it runs with no fan.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

The 'Design' page says it has "a teensy little fan".

Re:Mac Mini

[Richard_at_work]

Ive found that all Macs ive tried plugging PS/2 devices into using adapters jsut plain dont accept them. Take my ibook for example, plugged a MS keyboard into it (no jokes, they make damn good keyboards regardless of their software), the Caps Lock LED lit up, but nothing worked, no keys produced anything, the same issue with a PS/2 mouse I tried, it didnt work.

Re:Mac Mini

[prockcore]

Buy a Mac keyboard to go with it, and you get two more USB connectors right there.

But it's not powered. So you can use the keyboard to plug in a mouse and a thumbdrive, but not much else.

Plus, Apple keyboards are $80.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Last week:

The eMac sucks as a low-end machine because of its integrated screen and lack of upgradability.

This week:

The biggest threat to the iMac Mini is the el cheapo Dell laptop which has an integrated screen and no upgradability.

Too funny!

Re:Mac Mini

[bill_mcgonigle]

Damn...just goes to show you that you can't please everybody.

And we haven't even heard from the legions of "I could build an opteron with ... for less than that" nerds who think every desktop machine is a cluster node.

Not that this wouldn't make an interesting cluster node...

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Raise your hand if you have an extra mouse and keyboard set. Everyone still here? How about two? Three?

Mind you the hand-me-down's aren't as spiffy as Apple branded stuff, but you just saved yourself $50 since Apple is *NOT* going to be selling cheap swill.

Re:Mac Mini

[karstux]

An adapter for video output? Ooh... I'm starting to like this little box better and better! Provided that the video output is any good and the box is silent, it seems to be perfect as a "Home Media Center".

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. It would be nice to have something like 30% Mac OS, 30% Microsoft Windows, 30% BSD, and 10% Misc/Linux (Ok, swap BSD and Linux if you'd prefer).

Re:Mac Mini

[Jhan]

The 'Design' page says it has "a teensy little fan".

Aha. Oh, well.

A "teensy litle fan" that will have to run at umpteen hundred RPM's and sound like a mini jet engine. Well, there goes my dream of the perfect home server :-(

(I will still check the thing out in person when I get a chance, and maybe buy just two :-) )

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is a bad thing. The smaller the fan, the more noise it has to make to provide equivalent cooling.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

'"pretty" isn't necessarily worth $250.' Which is why you typically sleep with the crab infested whores, right? $250 is not too much of a premium to pay for a computer that doubles as a conversation piece.

Re:Mac Mini

[eMartin]

That's just what I was thinking.

Re:Mac Mini

[Raptor CK]

Using a Mac keyboard, you'd end up with two free USB ports. You'd use one for the keyboard, which is an unpowered 2-port hub, and plug the mouse into one of those ports. You'd still have a place to plug in your thumbdrive, or your iPod Shuffle, or both.

The last port could be used for whatever's left, like a camera or something, but how many USB devices do you leave plugged in all the time, anyway?

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

well for a company that is so intune to the customer and providing quality. why the fuck did they ever build that mouse in the first place.

the design team was a bunch of jackasses on that one.

Re:Mac Mini

[stevey]

My first thought when I saw the size of it was "Server / Router", but it is a little frustrating to see that it has only one NIC.

I guess it's overkill for a server anyway, but it'd be very sexy sat on my other machines :)

I've already got a KVM but only for PS/2 style connections, I guess that would work OK with PS and USB convertors I think I'll probably get one when they're available in the UK.

Re:Mac Mini

[Master Bait]

You can use about any usb keyboard with a Mac. I have a tank-like HP that I got at Frys for $7.50 and use a freebie utility called uControl to switch the alt and 'windows' keys around. Apple's keyboards are low volume and expensive.

Re:Mac Mini

[jimmyCarter]

Not to mention the fact that they're using all of the profits from the iPod to take losses on other products like the Mac mini. Expect to see more of this..

Re:Mac Mini

[Neko-kun]

Hell, I was waiting to see the official specs for this same reason. You wouldn't really need to hook up a monitor to it after the initial installation if you can just login into the thing.

Although to make it last for a good decade or so they should have made the ethernet gigabit.

Plus, it's great for those of us who want to run a server at home but have no closet to put a box in.

Re:Mac Mini

[diegocgteleline.es]

If they've added TV output and a infrared control remote then it'd have been perfect.

Re:Mac Mini

[SunFan]

Testicle-frying has completely displaced Pokemon at school, dude. I don't know what you're smoking, but super-notebooks is where it's at.

Re:Mac Mini

[OwnedByTwoCats]

He was pointing to an even less worthy Gateway. Take the Gateway, upgrade the video (can you?), upgrade to CD-RW/DVD, add in virus protection and a one-year warrenty, and shipping, and you're up to $800 (before rebate).

With the mini Mac, you get iLife (iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, iTunes, and GarageBand) so you can edit and organize songs, photos, and movies, burn the movies to DVD, and then put together some music. Plus AppleWorks (better than MS-Works) and the rest of the usual suspects.

And if something goes wrong, you have Gateway's sub-par service, vs. Apple's Best of the Bunch.

Re:Mac Mini

[TylerL82]

Nope. Apple Keyboard is now $29.
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObj ects/A ppleStore?productLearnMore=M9034LL/A

You're thinking of the $69 wireless keyboard (it's $59 now).

Re:Mac Mini

[SeaFox]

Sounds like a great upsell oppertunity for the Bluetooth option.

Re:Mac Mini

[tedwilliamsis]

Wait, wait, I thought I just heard you call Slashdot the "new home for the perpetually whiny"

I think you must be what's new around here

Re:Mac Mini

[AtrN]

Can I put more RAM in it ?

I don't know if "you can" add RAM but Apple will, for a (high) price. Check out the order options on the Apple store. No doubt as these hit the marketplace people will rip them open and add the DIMMs. A larger drive would be nice too.

Re:Mac Mini

[mandos]

hmmmmmmm, Sounds like Apple is listening to the users that complain. I would hope that over 8 years they adjust their product line.

I do agree though that the nature of the average slashdot commenter has changed a lot since 97. What do I have to do to be made an editor?

Re:Mac Mini

[rho]

No, it used to be the Democratic National Committee, but the election's over now...

Re:Mac Mini

[TheKidWho]

Yep

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects /A ppleStore?productLearnMore=M9267G/A

The video output is pretty damned good if you ask me, I use an adapter similiar to that for my ibook and gaming is pretty sweet on the TV :-D

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like a show of hands of how many people use the 'stock' keyboard and mouse that ships with ANY system? Not the build-to-order option one either, the stock keyboard and mouse...I'll bet it's a very small number of users that bitch about the Apple mouse with one button. Anyone that has used a computer for a long time and has gone through more than one of them buys their own keyboard and mouse. Why? because we find one that is comfortable for us and the way we want to work. I agree, stop whining about the insignificant nonsensical items, wake up and take a look at the evolution of a great computer, PERIOD. The Mac Mini is a GREAT digital hub device and I'm gonna get one to handle all my media (MP3, DVD, etc.)...hook one of those babies to your stereo and your plasma TV (or projector) and you're set.

Re:Mac Mini

[barzok]

Not even all thumbdrives. My Lexar Jumpdrive 2.0 Pro (USB2) doesn't work on the Mac keyboard I have here - it needs power.

Re:Mac Mini

[snuf23]

Hmmm. Bitter are we?

How about "if the low end Macs came with a decent video card I'd buy one!"

I keed, I keed.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

why the fuck did they ever build that mouse in the first place.

Because your average user has no idea what the second mouse button is for, nor do they use it. And no, your average slashdot reader does not count as the average user...

Re:Mac Mini

[d00ber]

I hear you!

I have an eMac in my room and that thing sounds like a freekin' wind tunnel.

It sounds like the Dell rack at work.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly who has a hand-me down USB keyboard?

That $499 price point is just a starting point. After purchasing a keyboard, mouse, USB hub, and wifi adapter, it ain't as cheap.

Re:Mac Mini

[rho]

well for a company that is so intune to the customer and providing quality. why the fuck did they ever build that mouse in the first place.

(Quoted because nobody reads at Threshold < 2 unless they're jobless gits, and thus nobody can see this genius's "contribution".[1]) Because Apple ran usability tests to determine that a symmetrical, one-button mouse is easier to use. They weren't just guessing, you moron. Ask a lefty presented with one of those Microsoft contoured mice if the Apple designers were right or not.

[1] I read it because I clicked on the "3 replies below your threshold" link as I am interested in what people have said in reply to my comment. This footnote is here to forestall the snide riposte "u ReD iT, u MuSt Be A lUsRRR!!!!!1" from some fat asshole nerd, as he returns to fondling his dick through his pants pocket.

Re:Mac Mini

[Xzzy]

Can't link to it because apple's store is being a laggy turd, but they sell an s-video output adapter for this new mac. Doesn't solve your remote control issue but there's usb options for that.

Re:Mac Mini

[SilentChris]

You seem to forget... some of us DON'T WANT the computer industry dumbed down. We like the fact that we have a vast canvas of unlimited hardware to play with. We don't like when a manufacturer feels a need to create a displayless piece of hardware or a box without a keyboard and mouse. To us, everything Apple does is wrong or at the very least misguided. Plus, Steve Jobs is a prick...

Re:Mac Mini

[jocknerd]

I've been looking to replace my old K6-200 PC running Linux and being used as my mail server. This would be perfect. Much smaller than the idotpc I was thinking about although more expensive. Wonder how long till Linux runs smoothly on it?

Re:Mac Mini

[Phillup]

I own two Macs.

Neither have the factory keyboard or mouse attached. (OK, technically the powerbook does... but it also has an external keyboard and mouse plugged in.)

Save me the dough... keep that sh*t. I'll get my own.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Through a USB sound device? I don't know if there are 5.1 versions.

Re:Mac Mini

[frankie]

There are several niches that the Mac Mini doesn't quite satisfy:

1. Media Center, no video in/out
2. Router, no dual NIC
3. Gaming Rig, no upgradeable AGP

However, the first two can be partially met by Firewire: VirtualDVHS and IP over Firewire. But I'm still waiting for my PowerMac LC.

Re:Mac Mini

[fafaforza]

Weird. I'm able to use my old PS/2 keyboard and mouse on a single usb port using a $5 converter cable.

Re:Mac Mini

[Ohreally_factor]

Actually, the BTO option of 512 MB is only $75, which, for apple, is amazingly decent.

From what I understand so far, this unit is not user upgradable (without voiding the warranty), so I'm not sure what the cheapest solution will be. I can imagine buying 3rd party, then going into one of the Apple Stores and cajoling the Apple Genius into installing it for free.

Re:Mac Mini

[Phillup]

And "pretty" isn't necessarily worth $250.

Not running Windows...

Not paying yearly for Virus software...

Not constantly checking for security updates...

Knowing that every time I turn my machine on to do something really important that absolutely must be done right now and know it will "just work", even if I've never done it before...

Abso-fscking-loutly Priceless. (easily justifying the $250)

Re:Mac Mini

[siskbc]

If they've added TV output and a infrared control remote then it'd have been perfect.

Done on both counts.

C'mon, you didn't think Uncle Steve would take care of you? I might have to turn this into a friggin DVR - it's the perfect size, price, and the disc is front-loading so it'll go well in a component rack. This thing is the closest to the ideal home entertainment center I've seen yet.

Re:Mac Mini

[objekt]

More like one third the height of a Cube, but three times faster.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

How old is the lack of games/software argument?

Re:Mac Mini

[Phillup]

Of course you have to pirate WinXP... and that would be illegal O.o

Not to mention that it would still be WinXP...

;-)

Re:Mac Mini

[rho]

No, "bitter" usually implies that I didn't get what I want. I got what I want, and I'm happy. The other guy is bitter. I'm simply pissed off that he's an whiny sumbitch.

Going down that "decent video card" route leads to madness. Want a decent video card? Get a G5. That's what they're there for. The Radeon 9200 isn't a barn-burner, but... so? I just recently upgraded from a GeForce 2 MX, so what do I know. Apple has a good relationship with ATI, and the 9200 is a well-established integrated graphics GPU--a requirement for the Mac Mini, since it is likely that everything is on the system board. It also looks like the Mini doesn't have a fan, so heat is also an issue.

Low-end Macs have low-end graphics. So do low-end PCs. Yes, PCs can be upgraded with an AGP card, but they're not tiny little boxes you can hide behind a photo of your mom.

Re:Mac Mini

[illumin8]

You wrote:

A "teensy litle fan" that will have to run at umpteen hundred RPM's and sound like a mini jet engine. Well, there goes my dream of the perfect home server :-(

From the page:

Best of all, Mac mini purrs along at a whisper-quiet sound level, so there's no reason to hide it under your desk like an old PC to save your ears. (Emphasis added)

I think the key word there is purred. I have a 1.25 PowerBook and the fan only comes on when the thing is really working (maxed out CPU). When it does come on, it sounds a bit like a kitty purring. I'm pretty sure this new notebook is using the same chipset as an iBook or PowerBook, so you could probably expect similar cooling. Of course I haven't seen one in person yet so I could be wrong.

Re:Mac Mini

[rho]

Wow, did Apple also nuke NewEgg.com from orbit today? No? That this machine doesn't suit your needs or wants is fine. No, really, you won't get beat up by a gang of turtlenecked art-fags with their hair fashionably mussed if you don't buy the Mac Mini.

Unless you're employing sarcasm.

Re:Mac Mini

[network23]

That's it. No more Windows. No more virus. No more worms. 100 per cent MacOS X from now on.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

wrong. Linux rules. Mac OS X drools.

Re:Mac Mini

[Jay Carlson]

2 years ago, it was "if only Apple sold a cheap headless Mac, I'd buy one!" Okay, your time is now, hero.

I'm too lazy to dig out more of my posting history asking for a goddamn headless iMac than this one, but yeah, I'm a hero.

Now, if I could just get the Apple Store to let me ORDER ONE. How many different WebObjects failure modes have you seen today?

Either the Shuffle or the Mac Mini is a big winner---I wonder what the Mini first day sales will be. I'll feel a little vindicated if Apple has a record-setting first day by finally offering a headless iMac.

Re:Mac Mini

[Moofie]

I'll bet you that the Mac-specialty hardware makers will have nice, stackable FireWire drives available for this thing inside three months.

Why couldn't you get it open? Have you ever tried to open a recent Mac? You grab a handle, pull 'em open. Not exactly brain surgery...

Re:Mac Mini

[Moofie]

So add more memory. RAM comes free in boxes of cereal now. What's the problem?

Re:Mac Mini

[cabazorro]

I have an imac G3 blue (egg shape) and I'm glad to point out that the number one feature which keeps me in awe is that is fanless. You can stream your media from a Linux server running appletalk buried somewhere in your basement, manually spin down the hard drive, and literally hear your own breathing while playing i-tunes. After 3 years still a work-of-art.

Re:Mac Mini

[BandwidthHog]

why the fuck did they ever build that mouse in the first place

At home I'm a Mac user with an eleven button trackball. At work one of my duties is to administer a small lab full of Winders machines for our students. I would *love* to find a source for cheap, one-button PS/2 mice. Now that I deal with so many first-time computer users, I totally understand it.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

(Ok, swap BSD and Linux if you'd prefer).

Not even if I was forced to. Linux is dying, I just hope people switch to BSD or OS X instead of Windows.

Re:Mac Mini

[prockcore]

Nope. Apple Keyboard is now $29.

Oh, that is good then. The Apple Pro keyboard that I bought 2 years ago was $80. Obviously they've come down in price since they switched to the extra lite version (the one without all that extra clear plastic on the edges).

Re:Mac Mini

[rho]

Why use Linux? If you have a Mac already, you can use the remote desktop to admin it graphically. If not, well... it runs a Unixalike already. You won't get that much of a speed boost from Linux at the cost of having to beta test drivers for the hardware.

If you do go this route, and install Mac OS X Server, you'll be in the unique position of paying more for your server license than for your server hardware!

Re:Mac Mini

[PriceIke]

Almost none of Logitech keyboards have drivers to allow their special function keys to work on the Mac. They did a great job with their Cordless MX Duo .. how hard would it be to modify that software to work with their DiNovo keyboards, or the MX 3100, or the LX 700, or the LX 500, and so on?

I have the LS 500 on my Mac at home, and even though I don't have drivers for it, the keyboard works fine .. I just can't use any of the functionality offered by all the extra media control keys and Web shortcuts keys. Come on Logitech! Do you not want our money?

Re:Mac Mini

[IamTheRealMike]

The problem with that situation is we've been there before, eg in the late 80s/early nineties with a mix of different hardware/software platforms (at least this was true in the UK). The problem is that due to the nature of platform lockin, it's a very unstable economic scenario.

Once one player gets ahead of the others by even a relatively small amount (for instance, by buying up a new "killer app" and killing off the competing ports) the playing field tips in their favour which in turn makes them stronger allowing them to tip the playing field even more. The natural end result is monopoly, which is exactly what we have now.

I remember not that long ago really there was a great diversity of computers in the UK: there were DOS based PCs, Macs, Acorn RISC machines, Commodores, and a few others I forgot about. Today there are only Windows PCs (Apple has even tinier market share here than in the states). Once Microsoft got ahead by both fair means and foul the result was inevitable.

So no, while it may seem intuitively obvious I don't believe a 30/30/30 split in the OS marketplace would be a good thing, it might be a stable combination in any other market which actually plays by the normal rules of capitalism, but the OS market does not and what is stable for eg bakers is a knife-edge for platform owners.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no real point to running Linux on it, why not use Mac OS X? You can use DarwinPorts/Fink/Gentoo to install whatever utilities you need, and besides, Linux is dying, didn't you hear?

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

ok, i completely understand the symmetrical bit. but that still doesnt explain the whole one button thing. I wont even consider a mouse that doesnt have at least 3 buttons, & the one i use every day has 5.

if its simplicity theyre after, why have a button at all? a zero-button mouse would be even simpler, better yet, skip the mouse & keyboard entirely, then youll NEVER have any user issues.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

If you do go this route, and install Mac OS X Server, you'll be in the unique position of paying more for your server license than for your server hardware!

You've never seen the pricing for an Oracle Database license :)

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

It has video out (S-Video or RCA whatever it is), and you can purchase a USB Ethernet Adapter to satisfy number 2. Elgato even makes a Firewire PVR solution.

Re:Mac Mini

[nacturation]

"There are several niches that the Mac Mini doesn't quite satisfy..."

Of course, this raises the question: if you satisfy every niche, is it still a niche product?

Re:Mac Mini

[sammy baby]

Well, yeah, but the Apple memory is /cooler/, see? Because it's... white. Or something.

Okay, seriously: I've read about people having problems upgrading the OS on Apple hardware if they use off brand memory. It'll work great, then they try to move to OS X.n+1 and eet no work. Just something to bear in mind.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. A zero mouse button Mac would still come with a mouse. The mouse would be able to move the pointer around on the screen, but it wouldn't be able to click at all.

Re:Mac Mini

[cowbutt]

Well, the one I linked to explicitly claims Mac OS support, so if it doesn't work, at least you won't have any problems getting your money back.

Re:Mac Mini

[diegocgteleline.es]

Certainly, I wish they'd have add it "by default". It'd have been great for sales

Re:Mac Mini

[cayenne8]

"C'mon, you didn't think Uncle Steve would take care of you? I might have to turn this into a friggin DVR - it's the perfect size, price, and the disc is front-loading so it'll go well in a component rack. This thing is the closest to the ideal home entertainment center I've seen yet."

I agree...would be GREAT if they'd port MythTV to the ppc....OSX or Linux...doesn't matter to me....

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

So just by Apple existing it creates "very unstable economic scenario" and there has to be a monopoly in operating systems, so it might as well be MS?

Now does this same logic apply to word processors? Does a file format create a network effect which will create a natural monopoly or a "very unstable economic scenario" if more than one competitor exists?

Does this apply to the ipod? Is MS creating a "very unstable economic scenario" by promoting their "plays for sure" campaign, in the face of Apple's natural monopoly? Or is Apple creating a "very unstable economic scenario" by simply selling the ipod in the face of a natural monopoly of CDs?

What about platforms on platforms (ie java, web applications) do these rules apply here too?

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhh, the standard mac mouse has zero buttons. You just click it. The whole thing. Easy for neophites to use, and easy for us techies to chuck out and buy a "regular" multi-button mouse. Yay.

Re:Mac Mini

[cayenne8]

Just curious...how big of a monitor could you run with this and wonder what highest resolution is? Could you run a larger one of their 'cinema' screens on this mini?

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, this is great, however, with two USB slots and no PS2 ports, a USB hub at least will be required, especially if existing USB peripherals are needed.

You can get PS/2-USB adaptors (plug your PS/2 keyboard and mouse into one USB port) for less than 20 dollars. This not only gives you a decent keyboard (most USB keyboards are stylish but crappy), it also leaves one free USB port.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

art-fags with their hair fashionably mussed

Heh. What is up with that look anyway? My wife loves it and constantly bugs me to wear my hair "scruffy". Screw that. I'm a nerd and I'll comb my hair straight, thankyouverymuch!

Re:Mac Mini

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Pretty much everyone I know has bought a mouse to go with their laptop. And many who use a laptop as a desktop replacment also end up getting a keyboard as well, and less commonly, a seperate monitor (mainly the power users, for desktop spanning).

So the only main price advantage for a laptop will probably just end up being the LCD (which is the most expensive, though). When you take into account the target audience, most will already have a monitor which they'd probably prefer to use over a laptop LCD anyway.

Re:Mac Mini

[IamTheRealMike]

So just by Apple existing it creates "very unstable economic scenario" and there has to be a monopoly in operating systems, so it might as well be MS?

Pretty much. Obviously Apple don't have much economic impact at the moment.

Now does this same logic apply to word processors? Does a file format create a network effect which will create a natural monopoly or a "very unstable economic scenario" if more than one competitor exists?

The same effects are at work but writing a word processor compatible with the competition takes such a tiny fraction of the effort building a complete operating system+ecosystem does that they are much weaker. But yes, one reason that MS Office is so dominant is that unbending the market (by being fully compatible) is so very difficult.

Does this apply to the ipod?

No because the iPod is not a platform, so it's not affected by these free market distortions that operating systems are. You could argue that artificially tying the iTunes music store to it has the same effect though. Generally tying two products together in the real world is much harder, ie Gillette cannot use encryption and lawsuits to stop a competitor making razor blades for its razors. Where it has happened typically there have attempts to stop it.

What about platforms on platforms (ie java, web applications) do these rules apply here too?

Java, yes, web applications: a bit. Implementing a web browser is less effort than cloning the entire Java platform but it's still a significant amount of effort. But it's doable in a sensible amount of time if you're really really interested in doing so (though how you make money off that is anybodies guess).

Another example of a platform would be Sky TV though most people don't use the word "platform" to describe it. But do you choose Sky TV because of the inherant greatness of Sky, or because it has the channels and programs you want to watch? The channels built upon the Sky content distribution platform, in the same way that software vendors build upon Windows.

OK, look. Classical capitalist economics is based on the concept of the free market, which is supposed to ensure competition and therefore make everything better, more efficient etc. Everybody knows this, it's basic stuff. The free market makes some simplifying assumptions, eg that of the "perfectly informed consumer" which means that people always buy products based on having all the information available. This is also obvious: if there are two products, A and B and product A is expensive, unreliable, disliked and B is wonderful, innovative and cheap but everybody buys A because they don't know about B, the free market isn't working and things aren't getting better.

So the free market and the perfectly informed consumer are fairly obviously platonic ideals never actually reached but you can get close, that's why we have product reviews and laws against anti-competitive behaviour. Because really the the free market is not magically robust against human greed and manipulation so it requires protection and control to ensure it does its job. That's why pure capitalism is essentially equivalent to anarchy.

"Platforms" like Windows or MacOS/X, or yes MS Office or Java too, bend the free market and they do so by affecting the perfectly informed consumer part. OK so you may know about MacOS/X but do you use it? If you don't why is that? Is it because you want to run games that only come out for Windows? Is it because you use an application that isn't available on the Mac? Is it because you want to use what you use at work (very common for less technically oriented individuals) and work can't use Macs because they have a million custom programs written in Visual Basic and Access, and an intranet full of IE specific JavaScript?

In other words the OS lockin we're all so familia

Re:Mac Mini

[neoevans]

But if you throw in the bluetooth keyboard + mouse, not only do you still have your USB ports, but you don't have any bloody wires to mess around with.

This is what I did for my G5 iMac. It's well worth the extra $$.

Re:Mac Mini

[mzs]

Think about the size of the box without the keyboard. Now think how many more of these boxes CompUSA or BestBuy will be willing to stock. Think about how much less Apple will pay for inventory and shipping. And think about people have always complained about the one button mouse anyway...

Re:Mac Mini

[Moofie]

And you can get a G4 Powerbook with wireless for less than a grand.

Apples are slightly more expensive than Dells. This doesn't surprise anybody. The price difference is now a pretty small one.

Re:Mac Mini

[nuggetman]

I might have to turn this into a friggin DVR - it's the perfect size, price, and the disc is front-loading so it'll go well in a component rack. This thing is the closest to the ideal home entertainment center I've seen yet.


Only problem is it only has a (presumably analog) minijack output. You need to buy a USB or firewire sound adapter to get any kind of decent audio to your home system.

Re:Mac Mini

[Moofie]

They could have also included a free pony. If they'd raised the price to about three grand.

Jesus...it's the best looking SFF PC on the planet. Add the peripherals you need. What's the damn problem?

Re:Mac Mini

[Moofie]

Hel-LO spec sheet!

# DVI video output for digital resolutions up to 1920 x 1200 pixels; supports 20-inch Apple Cinema display and 23-inch Apple Cinema HD display; supports coherent digital displays up to 154MHz; supports non-coherent digital displays up to 135MHz
# VGA video output (using included adapter) to support analog resolutions up to 1920 x 1080 pixels

Re:Mac Mini

[nuggetman]

you could run any but the 30"
the 30" requires a special dual-channel video card

Re:Mac Mini

[Moofie]

I've got a nutty idea.

Don't buy one.

See? Wasn't that easy?

"Works well" is not the same thing as "dumbed down". The fact that I don't need a crank and a footman to start my car does not mean that the automobile industry has been "dumbed down".

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has already proven it acts no differently than MS. Just look at their refusal to license their proprietary DRM

Re:Mac Mini

[Moofie]

Why would you waste that beautiful little computer on being a ROUTER? Geez! Get a Linksys! Or an AirPort extreme!

Re:Mac Mini

[nuggetman]

Media Center, no video in/out

No video out? It has a DVI port, and comes with a VGA adapter, and for $20 you can buy an adapter that gives you SVIDEO and RCA out.

Add an Elgato EyeTV tuner and an ATI Remote Wonder or comprable remote and you have a sleek little DVR.

Re:Mac Mini

[barthrh2]

Don't forget iLife. Just Photoshop Album adds $50 to your PC. DVD Authoring? More. Garageband? More. iMovie? Depends on whether you can deal with Windows Movie Maker.

Re:Mac Mini

[reflective recursion]

a little devil's advocate here, but...

Microsoft's position has had one major benefit that no Apple monopoly would ever bring us... cheap and plentiful hardware for an open platform. Without the Microsoft of the '80s and '90s we wouldn't have the completely open platform of Linux/BSD + x86 today. We probably wouldn't even have the choice of AMD vs. Intel.

And I think you're wrong about Apple's marketshare growing. It will be a sad day if Apple's marketshare shifts the balance of x86 being the dominating architecture. If that were to occur, hardware advancement would slow down and costs would rise in the x86 land. And if Apple was ever the dominating platform, hardware advancement would move only as fast as Apple needs it to.

OS competition might be good, but you're forgetting other factors at play. And really, the entire concept of an "operating system" is quickly becoming outdated. Today it is much more of a euphemism for control, rather than what it once was--an actual software system that enables a user to interact with hardware. Microsoft, Sun, and Netscape all know this, but they were much too early and anxious and never quite figured out how to monopolize on the idea of software that is not tied to a particular machine and/or OS. Give it another decade and the entire OS debate will be moot.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for your reply. Back to your original post, I always thought the era of platforms (Atari, Amiga, Apple, MS, etc.) was what computing should be about. It was so boring, for so long that thank god Apple and Linux are shaking things up. I understand the economics of what you are saying, but I disagree that multiple competitors means a market is broken. This is almost self evident.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Some people are never satisfied. You got what you wanted--now you want more? If they included a mouse, you'd bitch about how it was the 1-button Apple mouse, or you'd bitch that the keyboard wasn't wireless.

I know the parent post is being sarcastic, but yes you can use the wireless (Bluetooth) keyboard kit if you get the internal Bluetooth option. (Try customizing the machine on http://store.apple.com/.)

Re:Mac Mini

[Moofie]

When did you buy the no numberpad keyboard? 1991?

No pleasing some people.

Re:Mac Mini

[tf23]

Which Dell laptop are you referring to at that price?

We just bought a new iBook - the base model was $899 from amazon (this is the 1.2GHz).

I wonder how it compares with your Dell. Personally, at $899, I consider this iBook to the a portable-mini with screen.

Re:Mac Mini

[Macgrrl]

*nod*

I was thinking - this would go neatly next to the GCN as a media centre, put an airport Card into it and hook it up into the home theatre system for playing back video we have downloaded (the have just started playing season 6 West Wing over here - they were making a big deal in the press the other day about Zoe being found *sigh*, yes we get TV by BT). I do most of the admin of my old iMac from my PowerBook anyway, it shouldn't be any more difficult to run the Mini-Mac the same way.

Re:Mac Mini

[soft_guy]

Were you seriously expecting Apple to ship a Mac with PS/2 ports?

Second, I'm not sure why you think you would need a USB hub with this. Plug in a standard Mac keyboard and you get two usb ports on the keyboard. Now, plug in the mouse and you still have a total of two USB ports available.

Want to plug in an iPod? You use Firewire for that.

A scanner? OK, that's one USB port.

A printer? OK, that's another USB port. Unless you have an Airport Express in which case you can print wirelessly.

What do you need the third one for? Sure, I can think of uses, but I also think that the majority of users would not need a USB hub.

Re:Mac Mini

[siskbc]

I agree...would be GREAT if they'd port MythTV to the ppc....OSX or Linux...doesn't matter to me....

In this case, that alone won't solve the problem (I checked it out too) because there's no capture card in this little guy and nowhere to put one. At the point where you have to get an external box, you might as well get an integrated solution. Check out Eye TV, they make a series of boxes that are small and reasonably attractive, and come with software for scheduling the thing. Evidently they use the free TitanTV service to get programming, so there's no fees.

If it could work with DirecTV, I'd get one.

Re:Mac Mini

[soft_guy]

That's better than I have. I have an 867 MHz PowerBook G4. When the fan comes on (usually because some App is running the CPU flat out - usually some classic App), it sounds like a freaking airplane (non-jet) taking off.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

All of a sudden, my cube looks pretty klunky.

Re:Mac Mini

[CityZen]

Then you buy the $10 PS/2 -> USB adapter from Frys.

Re:Mac Mini

[soft_guy]

Ugh... iWork is the AppleWorks replacement. The only problem is no spreadsheet module with iWork anymore. Not sure if you can still get AppleWorks.

Also, if Apple's service is the "best of the bunch", I'd hate to see what is in second place. I've been using Mac exclusively since 1993 and IMHO, their service has gone downhill to the point where they are worse than useless and I pity anyone who has to call them.

I'm not disagreeing with the spirit of your argument, though.

Re:Mac Mini

[timeOday]

I just went to dell.com and looked up the cheapest laptop.

As for myself, I always use Thinkpads that are much more expensive :) Too bad they sold the brand to China.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

But you forgot that the users will get the button function holding down a keyboard command key instead. If you feel like you can handle more then one button, you can hold down the "f5" and the "control" keys!

This is all part of the Apple Innovation(TM) and Apple Experience(TM) helping make things simple for their really dumb users. Why should they have to do something like just click a second button, when they can easily hold down the "f5" and the "control" keys?

I may get sued for posting this inside info, but sometime Apple will introduce their answer to the mouse wheel, the page up and down keys! While not new, this Apple Innovation(TM) will only hyped up when they think that their users are smart enough to know about and use this.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

They're going to cell millions.

I've heard they're also gonna cell phones.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Save yourself the bother. Season six of the West Wing bites it really, really hard.

Re:Mac Mini

[iluvcapra]

That $499 price point is just a starting point. After purchasing a keyboard, mouse, USB hub, and wifi adapter, it ain't as cheap

After buying that XP Pro license, some movie editing software, some music software, that magical non-existant piece of software that keeps you from ever getting any virus ever, a video card with dedicated VRAM, a 6-pin firewire card, a USB hub, and a wifi adapter, that Dell ain't as cheap.

With all respect.

Re:Mac Mini

[puetzk]

It's form factor was pretty much set by the a fairly immovable constraint - the 5.25" frisbee we've settled upon :-) Ok, it's 3/8" inch bigger on each size, but that's still doesn't leave much room to play with dimensions :-)

Re:Mac Mini

[Cmdr TECO]

You don't need Server to fully administer OS X without the GUI: enjoy.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

They've licensed it to Motorola.

Just not to Real, or other MP3 Player Makers (unsure if they've asked, I would assume they have and have been turned down).

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

I am looking at the cube on my desk and I am wondering if one of these would fit in the blank lucite space under the computer.

Re:Mac Mini

[Space Coyote]

Not to mention the fact that they're using all of the profits from the iPod to take losses on other products like the Mac mini. Expect to see more of this..

Given that this thing is basically the guts of an eMac ($799, only $200 more for a display, mouse and keyboard), and I doubt very much that they wouls be selling the eMac at a loss, I'm sure that they are making money off of these.

And of course, once the next round of OS upgrades comes around they've just doubled their profit once again, something the cheapo PC makers can't do, because OS upgrades go to Microsoft.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, what were the odds SilentChris (to be said in South Park satan voice) was going to throw a hissy fit today.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Call. 1-800-MY-APPLE (1-800-692-7753, thanks Phonespell.org)

Re:Mac Mini

[ReignInBlood]

This footnote is here to forestall the snide riposte "u ReD iT, u MuSt Be A lUsRRR!!!!!1" from some fat asshole nerd, as he returns to fondling his dick through his pants pocket.

ha ha, solid gold, my friend. A+ posting!

Re:Mac Mini

[nzhuk98]

Wonder how long till Linux runs smoothly on it?

Why would that be a problem? Yellow Dog, Gentoo. That is if you don't like BSD with a nice UI on top of it and really have to run Linux on it.

Re:Mac Mini

[jafac]

Dude, I've been a Mac Owner for 10 years. And a perpetual Mac Whiner.

Today, I stop with the whining already. Cheap, headless iMac? I'm happy.

Thanks, Steve. FINALLY.

Re:Mac Mini

[_iCeb0x_ (1337 and k]

I was thinking about these little Macs... They offer a great array of options.

For web server work, you can have an array of these mini Macs, maybe 10 of them, all on a load balancer and serve a f***ing huge dynamic website!

You can have a pretty nice looking PVR. Just get an external FireWire TV tuner and voila! Even cooler if you have a TV with DVI in.

I wanted to know if the HD in the mini is a 3 1/2" or smaller than that. For a good PVR, 80GB won't cut it.

Re:Mac Mini

[waynelorentz]

ve found that all Macs ive tried plugging PS/2 devices into using adapters jsut plain dont accept them. Take my ibook for example, plugged a MS keyboard into it (no jokes, they make damn good keyboards regardless of their software), the Caps Lock LED lit up, but nothing worked, no keys produced anything, the same issue with a PS/2 mouse I tried, it didnt work.

A couple of years ago I picked up a strange little thingy at Micro Center for less than $15 that allowed me to plug a PS/2 mouse and PS/2 keyboard into a single USB port on my wife's iBook, and it worked great. Maybe you need a different adapter?

Re:Mac Mini

[waynelorentz]

I love this mini mac, but you need a usb keyboard mouse. Your Dell keyboard won't cut it.

The Dells we have at work all came with USB keyboards and mice. I guess it's time to move into this century.

Re:Mac Mini

[magicRob]

Buy your own goddamn keyboard and mouse and STFU.

or should that be, BUILD your own goddamn keyboard and mouse...

- Rob

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? eMac's don't have fans, you might wanna check into that noise :\

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

"Yes!" say Apple. "You're a competitor! Here! Have our competitive advantage! And look! Here's a billion dollars to start your manufacturing! Here are the keys to my house! Go for it!"

Re:Mac Mini

[objekt]

Not if you want to keep the power, usb, etc. plugged in.

Total height of a Cube is actally close to 9 3/4"

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Tie a zero-button mouse to mouse gestures, and you don't need to click :)

(Using the mouse gestures for things like highlighting would still suck though)

Maybe someone can come up with a joke about it this April Fools...

Re:Mac Mini

[BitchKapoor]

Why does a home user need XP Pro rather than XP Home? I've used both, and I don't really see much difference from the end-user perspective. My brother is fine with XP Home for all his video editing. Also, iMovie is in pretty much the same league as Windows Movie Maker, which is include with XP Home; e.g., you only get one video track! If you need to buy extra video editing software on Windows, you're also going to need it on a Mac; you can get either Adobe Premiere for Windows + a firewire card or Final Cut Express for $299. That said, I think the Mac Mini is at a pretty reasonable price point.

Re:Mac Mini

[hunterx11]

He means the original iMac keyboard. It had a number pad, but no section between the number pad and regular keys with help, home, page up, etc. The arrow keys were jammed into the lower right corner of the regular keys.

Re:Mac Mini

[Moofie]

Right. I remember that. From eight years ago. I think that iMac came with, like, some free fire. And a wheel.

Jesus, people. How many iterations of a product do you need?

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

SOMEONE FINALLY GOT IT!

and you all missed it.

Those of you out there who missed the early years of home computer days. Days when when your 14-16 year -old wiz kids would bang out code on the TI/99-4as, Ataris, ADAMs, Comoodore 64s of the world.

The time prior to cruddy PCs running WinBlowz.

Now like the return of the dedicated video game machine, we are back at the true Home computer where I feel comfortable buying my 11 year old something cool and the long-term dividends will pay off.

I'm all giddy watching my 11 year-old daughter make a UNIX box dance. She used to use Linux, but alas it got under her skin to have to be a systems admin to get basic stuff working all the time. Fun at first, but now a pain.

Rock On Mac Mini! The return or cool, the return of the Junior Wiz Kids.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a proud owner of a PowerMac G4 Cube. This Mac mini is essentially the same thing, with a speed increase. It is, however, smaller. Which gets me to suspect that it does indeed have a fan. Half of the G4 Cube is a huge momma heat sink.

I find it rather amusing how Jobs uses smoke and mirrors. "Brand new freakin' hot product!!!!" It's almost a re-packaged G4 Cube from how many years ago? Something that was cancelled due to lack of interest? New marketing hype and targetting are probably gonna work wonders, once again.

And yes, I already ordered the Mac mini. It will replace my G4 Cube, which will become my livingroom PVR machine. :-)

However, the case-mod geek in me is insisting that I stick the mini- into a MacSE/30. (I have 3 of them, dead, laying around.) All I need to find is a 9" or 10" LCD to fit into the cavity where the monochrome monitor once was.

Re:Mac Mini

[BasilBrush]

No, regular Apple keyboards with the 2 USB ports are $29 from Apple. Heck, you could get a wireless one for $59. Go check out the Apple Store.

You're also missing the point that you normally plug the mouse into the keyboard, which would leave you with 1 powered USB on the computer and one non-powered on the keyboard. Enough for most people.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a rehashed G4 Cube, it's pretty much the guts of an iBook G4, with a standard DDR DIMM instead of the iBook's SO-DIMM.

The G4 Cube failed because it was expensive and it sucked for the price, it managed to cost more and do less. This one does less, but has the costs less column checked as well. I too am ordering one.

Re:Mac Mini

[Jay Carlson]

Finally got through on the web site. Order placed. Time to find out whether memory upgrades really have to be done through an authorized Apple service center....

Re:Mac Mini

[K8Fan]

If this is a sub-BTX 1.5ish MHz PPC $600 machine w. FireWire that is utterly silent there is nothing, repeat nothing on the market that can compete with this. I'm getting five.

Small...quiet...cool. Five? I'd like to get 1024 of the and create the world's most efficient Beowulf cluster.

Re:Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

I understand it's more a iBook than G4 Cube, but from a user's perspective, that doesn't really matter. ;-)

The G4 Cube had two FireWire ports though, the only item I wish the Mac mini would have included. Actually, the Cube could also hold more memory, I believe. (Or did it top at 1Gb? Not sure... either way, it was 4 slots, better than just 1, but then again I don't suppose that's even physically possible with the Mac mini.)

Re:Mac Mini

[cyberphotographer]

• Apple has never sold a crippled OS

7.5.1?

Re:Mac Mini

[Slack3r78]

Agreed with you on most points, though I really wish they'd gone with the "other" lowend GPU - the FX5200 Ultra. The reason? The 5200 is on the list to be supported by CoreImage in Tiger, the 9200 is not. Sucks that an all new machine won't support one of the major features of an OS update that's only a few months away.

Re:Mac Mini

[IamTheRealMike]

Ah, I didn't say multiple competitors meant a market was broken, I said that given the operating systems (platforms) market natural tendency towards monopoly we're best to stick with Microsoft for now as interop with them is well understood

Re:Mac Mini

[_pruegel_]

Pricey Apple cereals. Adding RAM up to 1GB unfortunately almost doubles the price. They actually take 430 for 768 MB. That is ridiculous.

Re:Mac Mini

[Moofie]

OEM RAM is expensive? What a staggering revelation. Stop the presses.

I think the fact that the only thing the haters can REALLY complain about is that 1GB of factory RAM is expensive demonstrates how ridiculously good this computer is.

Come on...you're posting on /. You're a geek, right? Live on the wild side...get a screwdriver and install your own memory stick. I bet you can do it. Somebody will post a comic book with instructions inside of 48 hours of ship date.

Or (better idea!)...feel free to not buy one.

Re:Mac Mini

[_pruegel_]

Could I install standard RAM sticks? Which ones? DDR2? ECC?
Also the text at the apple site says
You can also choose up to 1GB RAM and increase the 40GB hard drive to 80GB. Some of these options must be installed by Apple at the factory; the rest can be added in-store at an Apple Store or an Apple authorized reseller.
So which of these options have to be installed by Apple at the factory and cannot be added later? I bet it is not the hard drive.
Even if it were standard RAM sticks - where do I put the screwdriver? It's not a standard enclosure you know.
Also I am not an Apple hater. I am actually quite interested.

Re:Mac Mini

[Moofie]

The specs for the memory are...GASP! on the spec sheet. 333mhz DDR PC2700. Sounds pretty bog standard to me.

Where do you put the screwdriver? In the end of the screw. I don't know...I haven't seen one yet. These ship on, what? The 22nd? By the 25th, there will be dozens of web sites that have dissected these things. It's just. not. that. hard.

Want somebody else to install your RAM for you? Take it to the Apple Store.

It's really amazing to me how people complain about how not upgradeable Macs are, and then they can't be bothered to even open the case. Whatever.

Re:Mac Mini

[jsebrech]

Me too. I've never bought a mac for actual day-to-day use (once bought an ancient SE/30 for playing around with). This mini, I will buy. First I'll wait a month or two to see if there are unexpected downsides ofcourse. But if there aren't, I will buy one.

Re:Mac Mini

[rho]

The FX5200 is supported, but is the 5200Go flavor supported? That I don't know. Nothing's keeping Apple from expanding Core Image to support the 9200, and the Mini may be the very thing to shove them into doing so, which will make a lot of iBook users happy.

Re:Mac Mini

[FredFnord]

I understand it's more a iBook than G4 Cube, but from a user's perspective, that doesn't really matter. ;-)

No. What matters is that this is literally 1/3 the price. One third. See, things that don't succeed at $1500 may well succeed at $500.

The G4 Cube had two FireWire ports though, the only item I wish the Mac mini would have included.

Well, fair enough, although most of my firewire equippage (external hard drive, external DVD burner) can be daisy-chained together; I don't even need my firewire hub (which itself cost only $70 anyway). Since the two ports are on the same firewire channel for most Macs anyway, I don't see any real reason for two. Only reason for two USB ports is because lots of people don't like plugging their printer into their keyboard.

Actually, the Cube could also hold more memory, I believe. (Or did it top at 1Gb? Not sure... either way, it was 4 slots, better than just 1, but then again I don't suppose that's even physically possible with the Mac mini.)

It could indeed hold more memory (1.5 gigs) but had only three slots, each of which (obviously) could take a 512 MB SDRAM PC100 DIMM.

-fred

Re:Mac Mini

[lowmagnet]

my second stick is third party, and it works fine. Hell, the RAM Apple puts in there is third party, too. There is no first-party RAM. They all go through a major manufacturer.

Re:Mac Mini

[GiMP]

> Why couldn't you get it open?
> Have you ever tried to open a recent Mac?

I agree that they're generally very easy to open, but we haven't seen the autopsy reports yet on this model.

Re:Mac Mini

[gladmac]

The HDD is a notebook one. Your options are FireWire or USB drives.

Re:Mac Mini

[llefler]

Ask a lefty presented with one of those Microsoft contoured mice if the Apple designers were right or not.

I'm a lefty, and I'm not sure about a one button mouse. Personally, my wrist bothers me much less and I spend less time uncluttering my desk when I use my trackball. The only thing that I get pissed about is Logitech keeps dropping the trackballs that are actually worth buying.

Of course, if there was a left handed trackball, I'd certainly give it a try.

BTW, there are plusses for lefties. We can write with our left while we control our PCs with our write. Those lowly righties have trouble multitasking.

Re:Mac Mini

[iluvcapra]

I think XP Pro is a more even comparison, feature by feature, with OS X 10.3.

A home user may not need all of these features, but many of them are very useful when you are exposed to them on OS X ("offline folders" or "roaming user profiles"/ vs dotMac, sacalable processor/multiprocessor support). All home users are different, but you get alot more for free with Panther than with XP home.

Deciding the value of an OS based on the needs of a particular application can be misleading.

Re:Mac Mini

[gunnk]

I'm slow on responding to this, so you may never see it, but it's worth a comment or two.

I think the major benefit of which you speak (cheap and plentiful hardware) was due to IBM, not Microsoft. IBM set the PC to be an open industry standard. By doing so they benefited from a huge range of third-party add-on cards. What they didn't realize was that other companies could compete against them on the base machines themselves. The move set the PC to be commodity hardware (pushing all other architectures into niches), but eventually bankrupted the IBM PC division.

Interestingly, since Mac OS X is a *nix-based system, cross-platform development is easier. It doesn't matter half as much what hardware you use in the *nix world. That's why my Mac has access to almost all the same software that my x86 Linux box does. Sometimes it's as easy as just recompiling the source code. I don't think that having a more even marketshare mix would therefore increase development costs in any significant way.

I actually agree with you on your last point. The OS *should* be moot, and eventually will be. The only reason it isn't already is Microsoft's monopoly status. MS is fighting against the tide.

Re:Mac Mini

[BitchKapoor]

"Deciding the value of an OS based on the needs of a particular application can be misleading."

Indeed, I suppose for someone like you, XP Pro would be a must, while obviously, for others, it would not. In the end, it is the utility you get out of a product that matters, not the number of features it presents. Just for kicks, here's the groups of others I thought of who wouldn't need to buy XP Pro:

• modest home users (those who don't need NT domain support and a few other advanced features)
• script kiddies/31337 h@x0rz -- they'll just pirate XP Pro (or more likely, a Longhorn beta)
• Linux users (they'll try to get a refund on XP Home, and probably fail)
• people who work for a large organization which has a site license for XP Pro and need its features to bring work home
• students at a school with MSDNAA

Yes, but...

[Mitchell Mebane]

Will Pages be MS Word compatible?

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Engadget is saying it is compatible with Word files

Re:Yes, but...

[Andy_R]

Yes. From http://www.apple.com/iwork/

"Pages is compatible. It imports AppleWorks documents and imports and exports Microsoft Word documents. Want to share your documents online? Pages also offers the easiest way to create great looking PDF files. Pages makes it easy to share your work with others."

Re:Yes, but...

[singularity]

Given that both TextEdit (Apple's Notepad equivalent) and AppleWorks were as compatible as they could be (without MS revealing file specs), I would strongly guess it would be.

Re:Yes, but...

[slycrel]

Yes, according to MacRumor (at keynote) reports.

Re:Yes, but...

[timeOday]

I think a lot will hinge on just how compatible it turns out to be. Personally I don't think the level of compatibility provided by reverse-engineering something that complex is likely to be satisfactory. (Yes, I used OpenOffice and no, I don't send important documents out after exporting from OO to .doc without at least loading into MS Word first - and usually fixing up some tables and so forth).

I gather Microsoft sometimes licenses .doc code or documentation to proprietary software shops, but how dumb would MS be to help Apple make a viable alternative to Office?

Re:Yes, but...

[Malc]

PDFCreator on SourceForge is a pretty easy way to create great looking PDF files too. That's what I'll use as I'm not on a Mac.

Re:Yes, but...

[jdavidb]

Want to share your documents online? Pages also offers the easiest way to create great looking PDF files.

I realize those two sentences may make perfect sense together to anybody who doesn't understand the web, but to the rest of us, it's a non-sequiter. Want to share your documents online? Please, for crying out loud, write your documents in HTML and make them actually work on the web instead of uploading a bunch of junk in binary file formats. I am so sick of navigating my internal company intranet and seeing that HR has no clue what the web is for so they've given us a bunch of random Word documents to download.

I realize there are cases when useful information can be better presented in specialized formats like PDF and Word (or better still some competing open file format like OO.o ). I'm not talking about those cases. I'm talking about when all you have is a few paragraphs of text to share. Just slap <p> tags around them and upload them; don't pretty them up in a word processor and export to a honking huge file format!

Re:Yes, but...

[soullessbastard]

Disclaimer: I am a developer for Mac OS X OpenOffice.org and a founder of the NeoOffice project.

Just the fact that you can import and export doesn't exactly mean it's 100% compatible. Heck, even Office v.X/2004 isn't 100% compatible with Windows Office generated files. One of the strengths of OpenOffice.org and NeoOffice is the accuracy of their import and export filters.

I wouldn't suspect Pages would be successful converting Word documents that have embedded Excel spreadsheets and charts those that go trapesing off to do database queries with macros. I suspect Pages would convert them to tatters.

While Pages may be sufficient for doing the basics of letter writing and entry-level document preparation, many of the more complex business level documents still will require Microsoft Office or an equivalent alternative. Office may be bloatware, but that doesn't prevent people from finding a way to use all of those features and then complaining when they don't work in another product. That makes true document compatibility a difficult task that can't fully be addrsesed by a word processing application alone.

ed

Re:Yes, but...

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Want to share your documents online? Please, for crying out loud, write your documents in HTML and make them actually work on the web instead of uploading a bunch of junk in binary file formats.

I think you are mistaking the point. If you want to share your documents online, in general PDF is a great format. For example, if you want to distribute a newsletter via e-mail, PDF is a good way to go. If you want to send out marketing info, PDF is a good way to go. It is standard, exact, and a single file. Doc is not standard, and may or may not be readable on your platform, and implies to people that they need to buy products from MS. Doc files also are extra large and may include way too much information about what is on your hard-drive. HTML is great for hosting a file for the Web (note this is not the same as the internet, it is a subset), but it is a crappy way to e-mail things, and is not easy to print. If you have any images, or multiple pages, you end up with a slew of files for a single document.

In any case, Pages supports export to PDF and HTML so if a person was planning on hosting something as a web page, it should not be hard to make an HTML version. I get a little upset whenever I see the bad reputation PDF has. Every time I open one on a Windows machine, I remember why this is the case. It is because Acrobat reader is a dog-slow piece of crap, that will bring a Windows box to a crawl while trying to load and scroll. On OS X PDFs are great, and finding one in a web page is not annoying. They download in the background, scroll just fine, and do not make your machine go catatonic for 10 minutes while all you want to do is read a few pages.

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

I realize there are cases when useful information can be better presented in specialized formats like PDF and Word (or better still some competing open file format like OO.o ).

1. PDF is an open file format
2. Most non-tech people seem to like reading documents in paper format (I have no idea why, but that's just me). For printing out documents with complex styling, PDF is vastly superior to HTML (and .doc is good for nothing, really.) Not that I like PDFs in places where HTML would be better suited, but that is one of the main reasons behind using PDFs online.

Re:Yes, but...

[jbn-o]

And if it is, it probably won't qualify as free software. I'm guessing that if this new word processor offers MS Word compatibility, it is either building on OpenOffice.org's MS Word import/export software, or building on something licensed from Microsoft. The latter promises 100% compatibility and that's not necessarily a good thing--no chance to inspect the rest of the program to make sure it's only doing what you want it to do, one must wait for Apple or Microsoft to make the software more secure (don't blindly execute all MS Word macros because some might implement backdoors, viruses, trojan horses, etc.).

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

I realize there are cases when useful information can be better presented in specialized formats like PDF and Word (or better still some competing open file format like OO.o ).

Exactly. Every time I see someone going unexpectedly "PDF sucks!" I make two guesses:

1. He is a Windows user
2. He has never produced any kind of printed (in a printing house) document

I have never failed. Windows seems to be the only operating system where viewing PDFs is regarded as a major pain in the ass and creating them as some kind of secret art.

Re:Yes, but...

[jdavidb]

I wasn't trying to knock PDF. PDF is a great format and is indeed far better than anything else you mentioned. What I was saying is that the default for the web ought to be HTML and you ought to only use PDF when you actually need that kind of feature. And then I will agree most wholeheartedly with you that if it is needed, I would far rather see it as PDF than as Word or some other junk format.

Unfortunately marketing and HR drones who value style over substance operate in a default mode of thinking they need all the whiz-bang presentation features that are not available in HTML when most of the time they do not. Given that export to HTML is available from Pages as a feature, I think we can see the mindset problem when they mention exporting something to PDF to put it on the web instead of HTML. HTML ought to be the first line solution rather than automatically throwing everything on the web in bloated binary formats when all that is needed is a few paragraphs.

Re:Yes, but...

[jdavidb]

1. My intent was to contrast open file formats with just Word, not with both Word and PDF. Unfortunately grammar didn't make my intent clear, and it made it look like I was saying to use an open format instead of PDF. PDF is a great, open format.
2. My point is those people need to get used to looking at stuff in HTML for cases where complex presentation is not needed. There are certainly cases where PDF is great online, and I never intended to imply otherwise.

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Will Pages be MS Word compatible?

Yes, both import and export (it's on the iWork web page).

Hopefully it will also keep formatting (and macros?).

We'll have to wait and see how well things work.

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

My point is those people need to get used to looking at stuff in HTML for cases where complex presentation is not needed.

Good luck, that's what I've been trying to do for ages. Still, from time to time, someone comes to me with a multi-page printed documents filled with URLs and strange terms that beg to be googled for, and my first reaction is: "Why the hell did you print this out for me? You got this fscking thing by email!"

Re:Yes, but...

[prockcore]

Given that both TextEdit (Apple's Notepad equivalent) and AppleWorks were as compatible as they could be (without MS revealing file specs), I would strongly guess it would be.

Nonsense. OOo is more compatible than TextEdit, so is Abiword. So it's not "as compatible as they could be".

I'm suprised that Apple didn't use Abiword as a basis, it's very lightweight and has really good compatibility.

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing to do with the article as such - as a NeoOffice user, I'd just like to say thanks for putting in the effort, it's appreciated.

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's just it, though. You're mistaking the web for the internet. "Want to share your files online?" doesn't mean "toss this up instead of a proper web page!"; you can have it as a download accessible via http, toss it on an ftp server, email it, whatever.

Re:Yes, but...

[Elwood P Dowd]

While Pages may be sufficient for doing the basics of letter writing and entry-level document preparation, many of the more complex business level documents still will require Microsoft Office or an equivalent alternative.

And while Microsoft Office might be sufficient for doing the basics of memo writing and entry-level document preparation, many of the more complex prepress documents still will require Pages or an equivalent alternative.

Look at Apple's screenies for Pages, and tell me that you'd want to try and use MS Word to create those documents. I'd rather have a hole in my head. Pages' layout features look as if they surpass Word like Keynote surpasses PowerPoint. Yes, if you need an embedded Excel spreadsheet, you'll need Office. But you might already have MS Office, and still need Pages.

Re:Yes, but...

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I think we can see the mindset problem when they mention exporting something to PDF to put it on the web instead of HTML.

Except that they did not mention that. They mention using PDF for sharing on the Internet. The Internet is not the Web. The Internet includes e-mail, news groups, RSS, chat, WWW, P2P, etc. I think you are just slightly confused about the terminology, or misread the PR from Apple. By sharing on the internet they might very well mean e-mail or a direct file transfer facilitated by ichat. Given the confusion surrounding "that thar intarweb thing", they could have been more clear, and could have emphasized the HTML capabilities as well. Although until someone tests Pages thoroughly, we will have no idea if it's HTML capabilities are up to snuff, or crappy like Word's.

Re:Yes, but...

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Pages' layout features look as if they surpass Word like Keynote surpasses PowerPoint.

It does look promising. If it is clean, fast, extendable, and scales for large documents it might be Adobe and Quark who should be concerned. I can hardly wait to give it a trial, although I'm trying not to get my hopes up too much. I'd really like support for XML import/export and maybe OO and Latex formats. Also, I'll be curious to see how the HTML and .doc compatibility works.

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd settle for iWork to be fully AppleWorks 6 compatible!

I love Apple.. I love MacOS X.. I'd sooner suck my own balls than buy *anything* from M$... but...

I'd settle for iWork to open *all* of my, my fathers, mothers, etc (large multi-mac household) AW 6 files. Like my moms Home Inventory DB using the AW 6 DB module, or the thousands of AW 6 spreadsheets my father has for his business, hates Excel, will *never* switch to Excel...

Great, Apple *finally* updates AppleWorks, and makes it usless to more than half the people that were using the previous version!

*Bangs head on desk*

Re:Yes, but...

[foilhl2]

At first I thought iWorks looked like the rumoured "Office replacement" that I have heard about. Sure it only has a word processor and presentation maker, but it follows in the path of "coolness" that Apple does best in. They both look sufficiently "slick" and easy to use, and the word processor seems to have good (basic) interoperability with Office files and PDF. Then I thought that it seemed as if they are missing out of the real guts of what business users need like not having a spread sheet to replace Excel, and some of the other Office integration components mentioned before.

But you know what, there is just not that much you can do to make a spread sheet application sexy and useful for a home user (accountants don't care about sex anyways), so it is probably a smart move by Apple to skip these apps. This is where Apple seems to be concentrating their efforts - focus on the home PC and home user. A home user does not want to do work at home (usually) and if they need to the company buys them a lousy Dell laptop. They will never win the office space in my opinion, so after the succss of consumer-oriented devices like the iPod, this seems like a very shrewd and logical move by Apple to win over the home user, and leave the office space to M$.

-- foil

Re:Yes, but...

[joshmccormack]

...how dumb would MS be to help Apple make a viable alternative to Office?

I think that would actually be pretty clever. They'd generate some revenue, have some competition to prove their not a monopoloy, and get money off of the competitor.

Re:Yes, but...

[soullessbastard]

Disclaimer: I am a developer for Mac OS X OpenOffice.org and a founder of the NeoOffice project.

[quote]Pages' layout features look as if they surpass Word like Keynote surpasses PowerPoint.[/quote]

This does, however, get to the root of the problem of document compatibility which is, in my mind, one of the key requirements of the mixed-platform business environment. While I don't dispute that Pages may be better for documents with those types of layouts, I wouldn't expect that the Word export of those documents will be 100% compatible.

Case in point:

1. Make a 2 slide presentation in Keynote.
2. Use a "Cube" transition effect.
3. Save and export to PowerPoint
4. Open in PowerPoint for presentation. Notice how PowerPoint doesn't do the spinning Cube transition even though theoretically you saved it in the file.

While cool features make for a nice application and probably a more functional one, they don't make for seamless document compatibility. When editing and exchanging documents with the 90%+ of corporations that use and archive their content in Microsoft Office formats, these snafus can prove to be quite a challenge.

ed

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a lawyer. What are the chances that Pages will let me produce crisp court documents with automatically formatted captions and numbered pleading-paper margins?

Re:Yes, but...

[The-Bus]

Acrobat Reader has been getting much better since 5.0 and previous, where it was just plain horrible. At this point (7.0) it has added some basic features which are really useful, for example, telling the browser what % of a PDF is left to download. I work with PDFs a lot and a lot of them are 15MB. I don't know if the page is loading, the server is down, Acrobat is being lazy - but now I do.

Acrobat Reader is still a memory hog but not as much as AIM which regularly feels it is OK to use 50MB (!!!) of my RAM. I presently use Amyuni PDF as my distiller/PDF creator, and find it woefully lacking.

Re:Yes, but...

[chialea]

I'd add to that "He has never written up a math-heavy document." The pain and suffering that people go through to achieve an inferior result is amazing. I've seen more than one person literally screaming at the screen. LaTeX is, hands down, the best piece of software I have ever used. It has a suprisingly shallow learning curve, and you can typeset anything you want. Generally, it Just Works. When you compile it on a differnt computer, you don't get new and interesting leaves and flowers replacing your greek symbols, like certain other pieces of software I could name.

I hear tell that microsoft is going to come out with some sort of software which can typeset equations, but I seriously doubt they can compete.

Regarding printed documents, Dec/5 (a group of grad students who do departmental service) produces a useful "Guide to Living in Pittsburgh" for incoming grad students (and whoever else wants to buy them. The printing house said they'd have to charge them $5000 (iirc) to go through their postscript and align everything correctly and clean it up before printing. They opened up the document and were absolutely stunned by how clean and correct it was; they're now reccomending LaTeX. (They also refunded the $5000.)

Lea

Re:Yes, but...

[adpowers]

You hit the nail on the head. When I used to use Windows as my main machine, I dreaded having to open PDFs, but they are my new favorite format on the Mac. Preview opens them very fast and offers wonderful page previews, searching, and table of contents. Now, whenever I need to save a website or some other random document, I just hit command-P and click "Save as PDF." I love how OS X has PDF built into the operating system, because it works /so/ well.

Re:Yes, but...

[soft_guy]

Supposedly, yes. It "reads" and "writes" in Word format. However, I have tried the following word processors on Mac that supposedly did the same thing: ClarisWorks/AppleWorks, AbiWord, NissusWriter, Open Office, and ThinkFree Office.

(In addition to Office X for Mac.)

MS-Office for Mac is the only one that has the same formatting as MS-Office for Windows. I work at a software company and get exchange Word docs with colleagues every day. All of the other word processors I've listed screw up the formatting every single time.

So, the answer is that you won't want to use it interchangably with MS-Word.

Re:Yes, but...

[falcon5768]

I would never in my wildest dreams think that I needed office to do buisness level documents...

Only a idiot would think that.... or a manager/CEO.

Re:Yes, but...

[myov]

The communications dept at my Mom's work loves to send an email announcement to the Everybody mailing list, with a huge Word attachment. No text, just a huge, bloated Word attachment.

Add to the fact that IT won't actually license Outlook forcing everyone to use OWA (no, they won't open IMAP on the exchange server either). So, it's click mail, download 15Mb attachment, open word, read, close word, delete attachment, delete mail, instead of click mail, read 3k text file, delete. At least a PDF will image inline (on OS X).

Re:Yes, but...

[Elwood P Dowd]

I'll be curious to see how the HTML and .doc compatibility works.

I just got back from MacWorld, and this was the very first thing I asked of the very first demoer I saw. Well, I don't care about .doc formatting working perfectly as well as I care about HTML formatting working perfectly. And the answer is that it doesn't work very well at all. Most of the general layout is there, but much is lost. I didn't ask to see .doc exporting.

One of the project managers was over the shoulder of the demo guy, and he pointed out "but our columns have features that they don't have". The columns actually worked perfectly, but text flow around an image element had a semi-messed up border.

Obviously, given the headaches of multiple browser compatibility, there would be absolutely no way that they could allow you to use whatever layout feature you wanted in Pages, export it to HTML, and have it to look perfect. Unfortunately, it doesn't look very good at all. The demo guy said, "Well, all the content is there".

Outside of the HTML export, the application is fucking rad. If your desired output method is PDF or paper, I've never seen a slicker word processor. They beefed up the Keynote canvas until it could handle everything you need for page layout.

Re:Yes, but...

[danila]

Disclaimer: I am a developer for Mac OS X OpenOffice.org and a founder of the NeoOffice project.

This is not a disclaimer, this is called disclosure.

Re:Yes, but...

[danila]

Look at Apple's screenies for Pages, and tell me that you'd want to try and use MS Word to create those documents.

It's easy. Apple is making a strong move with including great looking templates, while Microsoft seems to be stuck in the 90s. But almost everything (except rotated bitmaps) that I see on the Pages screenshots I can do in MS Word just as easily.

MS Word is known for having some annoying bugs, it doesn't handle huge complex documents very well, and its interface may not be the most refined, but all eye candy that Pages promises can be recreated with Word just as easily.

Re:Yes, but...

[guuyuk]

Pages looks more like an MS Publisher competitor than an MS Word competitor.

Re:Yes, but...

[owlstead]

Actually, I think adobe acrobat is a great product, and getting (slightly) better with each new version. They understand plugins alright.

They forgot one thing though; YOU ONLY NEED TO LOAD FREGGIN' PLUGINS WHEN YOU NEED THEM. Not at application startup time. I am in the security field and I like the way they implement security features. But 99% of the time I am just viewing a PDF converted from some WYSIWYG editor...

Next version, start plugins only when needed (and unload them after use).

Has to be said....

[Anonymous Coward]

the flash-based iPod is cool but damn it sure does look like a tampon.

iTampon maybe?

Re:Has to be said....

[Anonymous Coward]

For the average Slashdotter, a "tampon" is a personal hygiene (you know, hygiene?... oh, nevermind) device that "women" (you know, non-guys) use in places you'll never, ever see. Just FYI.

Re:Has to be said....

[AvantLegion]

Looking at the model on the www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/ page, I have to say, being her iTampon wouldn't be such a bad gig.

Re:Has to be said....

[AvantLegion]

And now it looks like they took her picture away and replaced it with a different heading pic. :(

Re:Has to be said....

[TylerL82]

If you're in to soaking up blood and other not-so-sexy secretions, then go ahead.

Re:Has to be said....

[Alien Being]

Their product page doesn't say anything about tampons, but it does say "Do not eat iPod shuffle."

Insanely sick?

Re:Has to be said....

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep refreshing. She comes back.

Re:Has to be said....

[milkman_matt]

And now it looks like they took her picture away and replaced it with a different heading pic. :(

It was a dude when I looked, so I refreshed and it was some girl, looks like it's a randomly selected image ;)

Re:Has to be said....

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm, I'd like to be her *lover*, not her *tampon*. But whatever gets you going, I guess. You can be the tampon. However you won't be in the room when the action starts, I can promise you that. :-)

Re:Has to be said....

[Anonymous Coward]

man, I'm just getting two dudes and a black chick when I refresh, so maybe they took down the attractive one. :(

Re:Has to be said....

[wildwood]

the flash-based iPod is cool but damn it sure does look like a tampon.

Hmmm...

Tweak the form a little bit, add a "vibrate" function... hello, dildonics!

"Can you feel the bass, baby?"

Re:Has to be said....

[Anonymous Coward]

"Can you feel the bass, baby?"

How did a fish get into the iTampon?

Re:Has to be said....

[tofu2go]

considering it plugs directly into your USB port, it's certainly inserted like one...

Re:Has to be said....

[worst_name_ever]

What, you mean that guy?

Re:Has to be said....

[PsychoKiller]

Lol, that picture changes when you reload the page. :)

Re:Has to be said....

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the source of the page and the phrases that are the choices for the random number generator. It looks like it's probably a pun by the webpage designer.

Re:Has to be said....

[bonch]

Call it the iBrator.

Re:Has to be said....

[elocutio]

Not that a guy would want to date a babe that was constantly groping fish.

D'oh! :P

Re:Has to be said....

[stevejsmith]

I don't know that anyone's ever explained to you exactly what a tampon is and when it is used.

Re:Has to be said....

[Anonymous Coward]

the iVibe!

my thoughts....

[the_mighty_$]

iHope iCan get one!

Re:my thoughts....

[Nik Picker]

actually you can moderate this a little to say

Ihope Ican getI

you see, the gag is I is the roman numeral for 1 and also sounds like one or can look like an I. so you can say.

I hope I can Get One

or

One Hope One Can Get One

oh we just laugh and laugh and laugh and then the warder comes round with the little purple pills.

Re:my thoughts....

[starrsoft]

Oh great, next we'll have the iCan. Can't you see Steve Jobs introducing Apple's new porta-potty?

Re:my thoughts....

[commodoresloat]

iCaramba!

slashdotted already!?!?!?!

[Snowbeam]

Cannot connec. You mean it's already slasdotted?

Re:slashdotted already!?!?!?!

[Anonymous Coward]

it's been macdotted. slashdot is late on this one, the keynotes been over for 20 minutes already

Re:slashdotted already!?!?!?!

[0racle]

Parts of Apple.ca have been down for at least an hour, I think someone screwed up.
I really wanted to price out an iBook too.

Re:slashdotted already!?!?!?!

[0racle]

Nope, looks like they were just teasing me while putting the new stuff up.

Re:slashdotted already!?!?!?!

[Trillan]

Har. The slahdot effect is a rounding error on this one.

One More Thing!

[jellomizer]

Dont forget the iPod shuffle $99 for 512meg and $149 for 1 GB. Heck that is only a little more then a usb key chain. Finally an Ipod I can afford.

Re:One More Thing!

[wahsapa]

does anybody know the specs on the ipod shuffle? what file types can it play?

Re:One More Thing!

[Anonymous Coward]

WMA and OGG only. Seems they couldn't work out the MP3 licensing terms on this and keep the price so cheap.

macteens blogged the whole thing

[gad_zuki!]

For more details on the keynote, although they are hastily written.

coral cache here

Re:macteens blogged the whole thing

[Ryan Stortz]

It looks like the Apple site has been updated aswell. With Nerd Porn (Pictures)!

Mac Mini & iPod Shuffle.

Damn you Apple, just when I convinced myself I didn't have enough money to buy a Mac.

i'M iMpressed...

[j_cavera]

...though I would hope for more capacity in the iShuffle. Anyone have pics? (FP!) - J

Re:i'M iMpressed...

[Anonymous Coward]

www.apple.com

Re:i'M iMpressed...

[stupidfoo]

is dead

those xservers are really impressive, aren't they?

Re:i'M iMpressed...

[subuni]

iPod Shuffle: http://webpages.charter.net.nyud.net:8090/mattman7 /shuf.jpg

Mac Mini: http://webpages.charter.net.nyud.net:8090/mattman7 /mini.jpg

new apple site

[zoftie]

go to apple site and gawk at stuff , lots of cool things.
apple is back!
p.

Re:new apple site

[Anonymous Coward]

Where'd they go?

Re:new apple site

[dirty]

Except it appears the Apple website is down. Stupid rabid fans. Oh well, I have 11 days before I buy me a Mini Mac.

the $500 computer

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't particularly care about being compact with a dirt-cheap $500 machine. I say abandon the small size, make it bigger and save everyone a few more bucks.

No screen?

[jacobcaz]

Hmm, I like the price point, but I don't like the "no screen" bit. Part of the allure of the iPod is how easy the UI is to navigate and use. How well will you be able to navigate with no feedback?

Re:No screen?

[entrager]

As the name suggests, the iPod Shuffle doesn't allow navigation, it just randomly plays songs.

Re:No screen?

[entrager]

I should add that it's possible to have it play songs in a pre-set order, which you would define from within iTunes. You would just need to memorize the order.

Re:No screen?

[Anonymous Coward]

That might be why its called the "shuffle"--no way to order the tunes?

Re:No screen?

[Hollinger]

As its name implies, it plays in a "shuffle" mode. However, there is an option switch to change to a sequential playlist mode, as set in iTunes when you download the songs.

Re:No screen?

[been42]

It's still a UI even if it's not a GUI. Every part of a device that lets you manipulate the device or check on its status is the user interface. Part of Apple's appeal, at least for me, has always been their attention to EVERY part of the user interface, even things that I wouldn't have thought to ask for. They make mistakes now and then, or maybe something turns out to be less durable than they expected (like an iPod battery), but overall their products are VERY easy to use, and I don't expect any less out of the new iPod.

On the other hand, if it does suck, they can give me my damn money back as quickly as I forked it over to them.

Re:No screen?

[NardofDoom]

And, really, you don't need to navigate through 100 songs.

Still, it lacks the semi-PDA capability of my iPod. Since I've started using my Powerbook at work I find the only way I use my iPod is keeping backups of certain files and viewing my address book and iCal. Both of which it's very good at.

Re:No screen?

[rogueuk]

you can still skip songs to navigate...but apple's ipod shuffle site is selling it as something that you fill randomly and listen to randomly

Re:No screen?

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't want to make it too nice, otherwise it would eat into their iPod Mini Sales. It's more for people who want a cheap iPod, or an iPod to listen while jogging/running, which is what I'll be buying one for, I'll keep my 3rd Gen iPod for taking music with me to work.

Re:No screen?

[pfoorion]

It seems to me that the target audience is for people who want to use this for their commute or a workout. I'm interested in how this is integrated with iTunes, meaning how easily can you just swap the playlist on the thing. I could see someone connecting this to their computer and downloading the playlist they want for that particular commute/workout. If you really NEED the ability to switch playlists a lot during the day, then you're likely to have more than the 100 songs and should look at a mini.

I like my 3rd gen iPod and like being able to pick my playlist to fit my mood while I'm on the subway but I usually just pick my playlist in the morning when I leave for work and then put the thing in my pocket, not taking it out again until I want to turn it off. For that I don't need a screen.

It'll be interesting to see if this takes off. It might just because it says iPod and costs $99.

Re:No screen?

[falcon5768]

actually not true... there is a fast forward and reverse button... it randomly plays them but you can move onto the next song if you wish.

Re:No screen?

[Anonymous Coward]

How did you used to navigate CD changers with random play capability? You FFWed past songs you didn't want to hear!

Don't know about you but I already own an iPod and I might get one of these for biking/running. I already have a real old MP3 player (Rio 64 MB model) but a GIG in a package 1/5th the size is looking good right now.

Damn I am Apple's bitch.

Re:No screen?

[i_should_be_working]

This sucks. Apple is supposed to be an innovator. There are tens of mp3 players this small, most with screens. What does this thing have over all the other cheapo flash players? Maybe if it was voice activated or something.

Nay I say

Re:No screen?

[braeburn]

Yes. This is commonly called a "playlist".

Re:No screen?

[verloren]

"You would just need to memorize the order." ...and then translate the order you've memorized into a carefully timed sequence of [next] and [last] button presses. Or you could let the iPod memorize it for you, and just listen to the pre-set order. :)

Re:No screen?

[Lurking Zealot]

I'm thinking of the iPod mini as a USB flash drive that can play music. Quick check at NewEgg shows 512K flash drives for ~$50, so you can 'upgrade' to a music-playing flash drive for another $50. A nice way to rationalize an extra toy anyway. Of course, actually using it as a flash drive might mean deleting music.

Re:No screen?

[usrusr]

i control my cd based player (made by iriver in the very early days of mobile mp3) nearly exclusively with the cable remote. not a problem there, and we're talking roughly the same storage dimension (700 mb cd blanks). the player itself ends up being merely some "nas" for the remote, and the power supply thing :)

note that i don't shuffle though, i have my albums sorted in the usual tree way, but i rarely skip. those mp3 cds are just like a mixtape, only with whole albums instead of individual tracks. and yes, they get boring after a week of commuting - i wonder if loading the flash would be fast enough to conveniently have the equivalent of changing the cd.

(yes i am aware of the specific advantages of solid-stateness)

Re:No screen?

[AKnightCowboy]

I should add that it's possible to have it play songs in a pre-set order, which you would define from within iTunes. You would just need to memorize the order.

That's pretty lame though. How hard is it to add in a cheap $5 LCD display like you find on other MP3 players that size?

Re:No screen?

[sydsavage]

What does this thing have over all the other cheapo flash players?

An Apple logo?

Re:No screen?

[Daniel Boisvert]

You can also play tunes in the order of the playlist. You don't -have- to shuffle them. The slider on the back has three positions: Off, Play In Order, and Shuffle.

It says this on the first page.. http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/

Re:No screen?

[rayde]

what is has is support for the iTMS, which none of those "cheapo flash players" can say.

Re:No screen?

[rollerbob]

You make it sound complex. There's a three way switch on the back: 1. Off 2. Play in Order (Radiohead-album-friendly mode) 3. Shuffle

Re:No screen?

[Pentomino]

Well, the keynote did a good job of explaining the rationale.

What do other Flash players have in common, he asked aloud, as a picture of some amorphous no-name flash player loomed behind him. And the four bullet points read:

• Tiny screen that's too small to read
• Tiny hard-to-press buttons
• Torturous user interface
• Takes disposable AAA batteries, which can cost you $100 per year (unless you use NiMH like I do.)

The iPod Shuffle addresses all of these problems. First, they lose the screen. Second, they reduce the buttons to something you can operate by touch. Third, they provide visual feedback in the form of strategically-placed LED's. And finally, they let you charge it with USB.

Also, iTunes has an AutoFill feature that'll dump a playlist to it right away.

Looks like a pretty competitive product.

Re:No screen?

[FredFnord]

How hard is it to add in a cheap $5 LCD display like you find on other MP3 players that size?

And keep it the same size it is? Impossible.

And make it bigger and clunkier and more expensive just to add a tiny little screen that in no way constitutes a reasonable user interface anyway? Pretty easy.

-fred

absolutely AMAzing

[DigitalLau]

but where are the new Powerbooks?? where? did they get lost in the mail? Has Stevie "Wonder" forgotten them at home? *sigh*... time to open p the wallet again....

Hopefully.

[BlackEyedSceva]

If the new Ipod has the sound quality of a Ipod I might look into buying one. That is the main problem with small mp3 players today, yeah maybe it can hold 20 miliion hours of music, but it sounds like crap.

ouch

[riceforlife]

::kicks self real hard for not buying apple stock 12 months ago::

Re:ouch

[mOoZik]

I bought Apple stock when it was in the low 30s. Let's just say I'm really happy now, even though it's down 4% today. Hope Wall Street reacts favorably to the smaller Mac, as the worry is that it may eat up the sales of more expensive ones...unless it is made to be very, very limited w/o affecting normal functionality.

Re:ouch

[Ethelred Unraed]

Except that AAPL is actually zooming downwards at the moment. Something like -4% in less than an hour after the keynote ended.

My hunch is that it's because Apple just fired a big-ass shot across Microsoft's bow with iWork. We can likely say bye-bye to Office v.X for Mac, and with it quite possibly the Mac platform. (At least in my experience, the existence of Office for Mac was one of the few things that kept the platform alive for a very large number of users, both corporate and private.)

That's the only explanation I can think of at the moment. SJ just delivered an under-$500 Mac and an under-$200 iPod, so you'd think people would be going ape-shit.

Cheers,

Ethelred

Re:ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

:: Pats himself on the back for buying apple stock for $20 in 2000 when the stock market crashed.

Re:ouch

[Durindana]

... as I'm sorry to see it kind of is. This is not a flame, I was pining for a Mac Mini but with some upgrade options.

G4 doesn't look upgradeable

more important, video card doesn't look upgradeable. 32 MB? Come on. I was hoping for a Cube replacement, not a Mac Classic.

Re:ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

For some weird reason Apple has a long history of its stock price going down immediately following a keynote. Makes no sense, but it happens. It'll be a lot more telling once we see where Apple's stock is at the end of the week.

As for iWork, I wouldn't really worry about Office v.X -- business users are going to keep buying Office, and home users are going to keep using the free stuff Apple gives them (prior to iWork it was AppleWorks). I've never met a home Mac user who shelled out the cash for Office, unless they also worked at home and needed it.

Re:ouch

[TheKidWho]

They still don't have an excel competitor, so no iWork will not directly compete with Office 2004. And I dunno but it seems iWork is designed more for the graphics media people.

Re:ouch

[the_rev_matt]

Or more likely because the stock has been climbing for a week in anticipation of Mac Expo (as happens every year) and after the announcements all the speculators sell off trying to grab their profits quick before the stock levels off to about where it was before the speculators came in. As happens every year.

Re:ouch

[Ethelred Unraed]

They still don't have an excel competitor, so no iWork will not directly compete with Office 2004.

The pattern is there: First Keynote to face off against PowerPoint; next, Pages to face off against Word. Excel is the next obvious step.

(I bet it'll be called "Column", symbolizing the shafting they want to give bgates@microsoft.com. ;-) )

And I dunno but it seems iWork is designed more for the graphics media people.

Nah -- I've had a number of programming and business clients who specifically requested I design their presentations in Keynote, precisely because they too liked the slick look and feel of it. And I have to say, I enjoy designing presentations in Keynote as opposed to pulling my own head off rather than use PowerPoint. The interface is just so much easier to deal with, and a lot more stable for me, too.

You don't have to be a designer to appreciate good design, after all.

Cheers,

Ethelred

Re:ouch

[mstockman]

Except that AAPL is actually zooming downwards at the moment. Something like -4% in less than an hour after the keynote ended.

Except that Apple's stock just about always goes down on the announcements. No idea why. It always frustrated me as I watched the stock over the years, but I learned to expect it. So any guesses as to which announcement made the stock drop are likely wrong.

Re:ouch

[smack.addict]

AAPL is zooming downwards because it has had a tremendous runup that has significantly outpaced the market.

I bought at $17 and I am quite happy right now.

Re:ouch

[mOoZik]

Actually, it's because iPod sales were slightly lower than expected, about 4.5 Mil vs. the estimated 4.6 Mil, at least by one research group. However, I expect the shares to gain ground in the coming weeks, as profit-turners stop selling the stocks and look at all the good news for Apple, such as its doubling of the market share, new products, and so on. Now is the time to buy.

Re:ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

We can likely say bye-bye to Office v.X for Mac, and with it quite possibly the Mac platform.

Such sweet thoughts... please don't tease me with such ideas.

Re:ouch

[Altus]

I came to the conclusion years ago that it was people buying on speculation prior to the keynote and then selling off to take profit afterwards.

leading up to one of these events the stock price generally climbs steadily, holds for a while and then drops right after the keynote, but never that much and it usually recovers.

still... I used this to my advantage... I wanted to cash out the stock anyway (no reflection how I think it will perform... I needed the cash) and sold just weeks ago at the 52 week high, taking advantage of the pre-macworld growth!

of course now I wish I didnt need the cash... Id love to still have apple stock... or one of the new mac minis!

Re:ouch

[Moofie]

Wait, so you mean Apple just released a raft of kick ass new products, and got more beleaguered?

Somebody call John Dvorak. He might be right this time.

Not.

Re:ouch

[Ethelred Unraed]

Wait, so you mean Apple just released a raft of kick ass new products, and got more beleaguered?

Hence I said: "SJ just delivered an under-$500 Mac and an under-$200 iPod, so you'd think people would be going ape-shit." In reference to Wall Street.

If you really want to be offended by what I wrote, fine, but at least be offended at what I actually wrote.

Cheers,

Ethelred

Re:ouch

[larkost]

This is a 6.5" x 6.5" x 2" computer... what sort of expansion slot did you want them to use?

And if you are not playing games all the time, 32MB is just fine for a graphics card. Why would you expect this to be a games machine? XBox would be a bette choice.

Re:ouch

[nelsonal]

That combined with the concern that Apple will be selling $500 systems to the same people they were selling $1200 systems to without adding enough additional computers to offset the loss.

Re:ouch

[Moofie]

I wasn't offended. I was being funny and ironic. Notice my goofy hat and crazy pants, and my ironic japes.

I think the reaction of the stock market is equally crazy. That's why I don't invest in the stock market.

Re:ouch

[Ethelred Unraed]

I wasn't offended. I was being funny and ironic. Notice my goofy hat and crazy pants, and my ironic japes.

Yes, but you were wearing the lime-green goofy hat, which according to standard etiquette and protocol negates the ironic japes.

Clearly you have much to learn in matters of high society, my good lad.

Cheers,

Ethelred

Re:ouch

[jht]

I actually don't think iWork is such a threat (at least right now). It doesn't include a spreadsheet, database, or drawing app - just a word processor and presentation program - the presentation program being an improvement to one that's been out a couple of years.

Granted, they're pretty sweet apps, but if you want a spreadsheet you still need Excel, and if you need a database you still need something else. It will probably make a small dent in Office sales - the people who were buying Office "Student-Teacher Edition" for $125 or so will now have a nice built-in alternative. Assuming they just needed Word.

Re:ouch

[the_rev_matt]

Highly unlikely. Just as the iPod Shuffle is not aimed at the same target market as the iPod Photo, the Mac mini is not aimed at the same market as the iMac.

Re:ouch

[Moofie]

*sniff*

now i'm depressed.

Re:ouch

[eno2001]

And I dunno but it seems iWork is designed more for the graphics media people.

And some of us would say that the "grapchis media" people are the only people who matter... :)

Re:ouch

[the pickle]

Or, as a friend of mine pointed out, people were cashing in on their $70/share stock.

CBS Marketwatch claims "dissapointment" that "only" 4.5 million iPods were sold last quarter.

Yeah, since when is 4.5 million "only?" Especially when it represents a 6x increase relative to the year-ago quarter? Wall Street is a bunch of raving idiots.

No matter. I'll hang onto my stock and watch it start climbing like mad again when Apple announces their Q1 2005 results in mid-March on the back of market share numbers unseen since the Sculley days.

I'd be happy to add you to the Apple Death Knell Count, though, if that's what you're predicting :-p

p

Re:ouch

[Ethelred Unraed]

I'd be happy to add you to the Apple Death Knell Count, though, if that's what you're predicting :-p

Considering that I've been a Mac user since '84 and am typing this on a dual G5 (which happens to be my seventh Mac), I hardly think I'm going to be easily painted as an Apple-gloom-and-doom kinda guy. :-P

Cheers,

Ethelred

Re:ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, I was seriously considering it back at $14 or so. Then I thought, nah, Apple does well in its niche but the market as a whole never appreciates them. Doh!

Re:ouch

[Tet]

They still don't have an excel competitor, so no iWork will not directly compete with Office 2004.

Gnumeric already works on OS X, and if Apple had any sense, they'd bundle a rebranded version of that.

Re:ouch

[soft_guy]

My hunch is that it's because Apple just fired a big-ass shot across Microsoft's bow with iWork. We can likely say bye-bye to Office v.X for Mac, and with it quite possibly the Mac platform.

You're smoking crack is you think iWork is going prevent very many sales of MS-Office, or cause Microsoft to cancel MS-Office. This is AppleWorks warmed over, not an Office killer. Back in the days when Claris was actively going after Microsoft head to head, Microsoft maybe had a reason to worry. Today, I don't think so. Not even in the Mac market. People, like me, shell out hundreds of dollars for MS-Office because I can give my Word or Excel file to a Windows using colleague and know that it will look identical when they open it. Think you will be able to do that with "Pages" by saving it in Word format? Think again. Try opening a Word document in AppleWorks right now if you think so. That has been a feature of Apple(Claris)Works since version 1.0. It never worked before, why would you expect it to work now? It doesn't work in any competing word processor (AbiWord, ThinkFree Office, AppleWorks, Open Office, Star Office, Nissus Writer) and it doesn't work with Keynote/PowerPoint file exchanges.

No, the reason Apple's stock is dropping is because it always drops after every product and earnings announcement that I can remember. Even back when Apple first returned to profitability and they were consistantly beating the analyst estimates for earnings, the stock always dropped right after the product and earnings announcements. It's called "Buy on the rumor, sell on the news." and its been going on since stock trading began.

Re:ouch

[MasonMcD]

Except that AAPL is actually zooming downwards at the moment. Something like -4% in less than an hour after the keynote ended.

My hunch is that it's because Apple just fired a big-ass shot across Microsoft's bow with iWork.

No. I'm sure MS and Apple know perfectly well what the other is doing, and MS and Apple strategies aren't deliberately trying to step on each other's toes. Perhaps you haven't heard the axiom "buy on rumor, sell on news."

It's standard AAPL behavior during and shortly after the keynotes. Wait a week or two (maybe more) before the true impact of the keynote news trickles into the market maker's strategies. All is good with Apple stock. Much of the swing is strictly technical manipulation based on non-institutional float, put/call options expiry, tape painting, and bare knuckles intimidation.

Apple has ~5% share for the PC market. It has a tiny distance to drop, and almost everything to gain. Same with Linux. I think Bill knows this, which is why he resorted to the specter of ***COMMUNISM*** in his latest interviews. IT folk and end users don't bat an eye about ***COMMUNISM***. Why would they? Computer use isn't some socio-economic theory. That's a Wall Street bogeyman. Unless you bought MSFT prior to five years ago, MSFT has been flat to down, i.e. not a good investment compared to Apple (and others). The price of establishing a monopoly with no innovation, I guess.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=AAPL&t=5y&l=on&z =m &q=l&c=MSFT

Re:ouch

[burns210]

Yea. But Apple is up 40 from the high-teens($18-20) 12-18 months ago.

Re:ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

People, like me, shell out hundreds of dollars for MS-Office because I can give my Word or Excel file to a Windows using colleague and know that it will look identical when they open it.

That's odd. I've had all sorts of problems having Word or Excel documents appearing differently on different machines. Maybe if everyone were using the same version, but that's not too likely.

Re:ouch

[Carthag]

Mariner Calc is a pretty good native spreadsheet app. It even opens Excel files to ease the transition. Costs 50 bucks.

Re:ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

Hats off to you two.

This is the funniest thread I've ever read that didn't have smilies in it.

I will remedy this situation now:

:) :) :) :) :) :)

;)

(No need to thank me)

Re:ouch

[Moofie]

*doffs lime green goofy hat*
*bows floridly*

Re:ouch

[Magic5Ball]

It doesn't include a spreadsheet, database, or drawing app

Access for OS X would be nice.

Re:ouch

[Magic5Ball]

Many office apps tie the document layout to the specs of the local/default printer, which is annoying when moving between computers attached to printers that have different imagable areas. Margins often change between different lines/classes of printers, or between printers with different default common paper sizes (A4 vs letter vs letter (small)...).

Re:ouch

[danila]

Gnumeric looks completely unapplelike (like shit). The whole UI would need to be redesigned (including the application icon). The charts would need to be redone. What is left? Printing? Saving as PDF? Formulas? It's not worth anything to Apple. Gnumeric may be valuable to Linux users, it may be valuable to proponents of Free software, but to Apple its value is ZERO. I think it's pretty obvious that the same team that created Keynote and Pages would simply work on a spreadsheet application from scratch, creating something slick and easy to use.

Re:ouch

[nelsonal]

Sure, it's not aimed at the same market but the concern is that you miss the market you were aiming for originally. Take the clones for example, they were supposed to expand the total user base of Apple customers by offering cheap systems to Windows users, however they ended up taking more high value Apple customers than they added in new revenue from former PC users. Shareholders were concerned about this, how ever the ADD shareholders dropped that concern with the Ohh, shiney! results posted tonight. The lesson to learn from this is that many time the stock market is far too short sighted and you can use tendancy this to make profitable investments.

Re:ouch

[FredFnord]

*doffs lime green goofy hat*
*bows floridly*

Well, you didn't mention that it had a flower in it. That makes it all right, then.

-fred

Re:ouch

[Moofie]

No, you BOOB. Floridly. As in "aureate: elaborately or excessively ornamented; "flamboyant handwriting"; "the senator's florid speech" "

*jape jape caper caper* *honks your nose*

Re:ouch

[nagora]

Right, that's it. Stop that. It's all very silly indeed.

Re:ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy the rumor, sell the fact.

It is as rudimentary to financiers as RTFM is to programmers.

Re:ouch

[FredFnord]

Harumph. I am not a boob, though I do play one on television. Hence, obviously, your confusion.

And anyway, I like my interpretation better. And absolutely prefer 'the senator's florid face' to his speech, which was riddled with incongruities and inanities, not to mention intangibles and insane introspection.

As for capers, I must admit that I prefer garlic.

-fred

Let's get this outta the way...

[rampant mac]

Holy SHIT.

My wallet just got substantially thinner.

Re:Let's get this outta the way...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Apple does soft intro on new updated i-wallet for 2005... thinner, more streamlined, and a little less powerful than last year's i-wallet :)

Re:Let's get this outta the way...

[javaxman]

My wallet just got substantially thinner.

How? By a $499 Mac mini? By a $99 iPod Shuffle? A $79 iLife?

The truly remarkable thing is that even *I* could afford this stuff. There were absolutely no high-end Apple hardware announcements of any kind today. I can't spend over $700 on anything Steve introduced today. What's up with that?!?

Re:Let's get this outta the way...

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet you could hit $700 with the Mac Mini by configuring the RAM up to a gig and maybe adding some other stuff. Your point is still taken.

Re:Let's get this outta the way...

[Hawthorne01]

How? By a $499 Mac mini? By a $99 iPod Shuffle? A $79 iLife?

By buying 12 of each, of course! :-)

Re:Let's get this outta the way...

[JWW]

So you want to spend more....

Imagine a Beowolf cluster of those!!!

Sorry, had to do it.

Re:Let's get this outta the way...

[mofu]

Actually you CAN spend well over $700 on something Steve introduced today . . .

1.42 Ghz MacMini $599
w/ 1GB Factory Ram $425, SuperDrive $100, and Dual Wireless Bluetooth/WiFi Extreme $129 =

$1253 Without buying anything that resides outside the MacMini Case . . .

Re:Let's get this outta the way...

[javaxman]

1.42 Ghz MacMini $599 w/ 1GB Factory Ram $425

Damn. I thought someone might call me on this by getting their RAM from Apple. Drat.

Of course, if you're going to insist on buying your RAM from Apple, and you want to buy a 1GB for $425 ( nearly the price of the base machine! ), yea, you can get the price up to over a thousand bucks. Just.

Having said that, I'm sure you can get your RAM a little cheaper, can't you??

Next time, I'll have to say something like "without getting custom-order add-ons" or some similar disclaimer...

My *actual* point, which is that this is all consumer-grade stuff, which is a sea change for Apple, still holds, I think.

Re:Let's get this outta the way...

[CerebusUS]

Well, you could go with the $599 version and add... oh, say... 512MB memory, superdrive, bluetooth/802.11g

Comes out to $902. or thereabout :-)

$15 for 2nd shipping means it should be here on or around the 25th....

Re:Let's get this outta the way...

[mofu]

From Apple website:
"Memory upgrade must be performed by an Apple Authorized Service provider."

Quick translation, adding your own memory will void your warranty . . . .
Selling a $175 stick of memory (less $40 base for 256MB) for $425 is in my opinion, criminal.

Re:Let's get this outta the way...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can add your own memory, it would just cost $30 at an Apple Authorized Service Provider. I really don't think they're keeping tabs on this though, so it's mostly there so they don't have to cover user stupidity.

Re:Let's get this outta the way...

[EvilFrog]

Apple has always had that disclaimer. I've added memory in dozens of Macs and never had Apple deny service on any of them.

Re:Let's get this outta the way...

[Magic5Ball]

Apples with no such memory
disclaimer

MAC Mini nothing new

[Anonymous Coward]

There's already been a Mac Mini seen here:

http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Entex/MAC.htm

Certainly not as powerful and used magnetic cards for its programs. Looks neat though and I could imagine one of these in some early 70's sci-fi movie doubling as some sort of terminal.

Entex M-A-C Mini Computer (19xx, LED, 4 C batteries, Model# 6019)
MAC = Multi-functional Advanced Computer

Entex's 4K micro-computer and 4 function, 8-digit calculator. Came with many pre-programmed games, and even allowed you to program some of your own. It was also used to teach 8048/49 machine language. It uses magnetic cards to store data, and each card is readable/writable. A display key is used to read the output; its output can either be depicted by an overlay or displayed in byte-word binary. It can display numbers and letters and has musical output.

Redundant?

[timster]

no wireless. Slower than a dell. Lame.

Re:Redundant?

[Jesrad]

... and runs MacOS X :)

Re:Redundant?

[aergern]

Let them both run side by side for a month and see which one slows down due to spyware and other such stuff. :)

Re:Redundant?

[dcstimm]

add wireless, just like any dell, far better then any dell because its beautiful, small, has DVI, firewire, usb 2.0, and a slot loading drive. Also it has Macosx, which is bY FAR the best OS on the planet. This machine is what every geek needs.

Hell I can even add internal bluetooth.

Re:Redundant?

[didde]

Wireless? Why yes. It's available as an option.

Re:Redundant?

[Anonymous Coward]

no wireless. Slower than a dell. Lame.

Wireless optional. Smaller and quieter with an OS that isn't (as?) susceptible to viruses, worms, trojans, spyware, etc.

Apple doesn't have to buy anti-spyware and anti-virus companies to keep its OS going. (Of course, for how long...)

BTW, how much speed do you people need to surf, read e-mail, edit a document, and watch DVDs?

Remember, more computing power was thrown away last week than existed in
the world in 1982.
http://www.tom.womack.net/computing/prices.html

(Though you are correct that it is slower than a similarly priced Dell. My argument speed isn't everything. It's like buying one car over another because it's 1 second faster getting to 60 or in the quarter-mile. These metrics are useful, but not the be-all and end-all. (And yes, I own a Mac: a 1.25GHz PB which runs fast enough (for now)).)

Re:Redundant?

[maccw]

Yea but it will take a two button mouse no problem dude > "And yes, Mac mini will take advantage of your two-button USB mouse with scroll-wheel and your favorite USB keyboard. Just plug them in." hmph!

Re:Redundant?

[Anonymous Coward]

Far better than any Dell? What every geek needs?

The Mac mini is a nice little computer, but you must shake off the RDF.

Features missing from the Mac mini that some Dells have and some geeks need:

• Bandwidth: 167MHz system bus and single-channel memory controller is slow by today's standards
• Serial ATA: not IDE
• PCI Express x16: not AGP
• Expansion slots and upgradable graphics: Mac mini has no PCI/PCI Express x1 slots and its built-in graphics (entry-level a year ago) is not upgradable
• Space for 2 optical drives
• Better built-in sound
• Front USB/Firewire ports and memory card reader

Most geeks that want small and beautiful would probably prefer a Shuttle XPC G5, a barebones SB95P V2, or a barebones SB86i.

Re:Redundant?

[Anonymous Coward]

not everyone in the world thinks that a computer should be screaming fast and be able to run all those lame-ass games (b/c why else would you have a super-fast machine @ home, unless you're actually doing work that requires it). This unit is probably one of the greatest computing innovations ever, meant for the people that want and think of a computer as an appliance, not a thing to constantly tweak, tune and throw money at... an everyman's mac, if you will.

Re:Redundant?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tom really needs to update his website pricing.

Re:Redundant?

[jschottm]

and a slot loading drive

Why is it that Apple fanboys get so worked up over slot loading drives? If my Dell laptop's CD drive dies, they can send me a replacement and I can pop it in. When my 12"'s CD drive died, I had to send the entire unit in to get a relatively minor unit repaired. I have three Xserves, and I've never once considered their slot loading drives to be a good feature. It's a comfort to know that if one of my non-Apple servers' CD drives goes bad I can pop in any standard drive in and be back in business.

This machine is what every geek needs.

[Insert flamebait here]

Oh wait, here's some:

Also it has Macosx, which is bY FAR the best OS on the planet.

So, you do know that Safari has spellcheck built in, right?

Grow up. There is no such thing as "the best." Different problems and people have different solutions. Use the one that works for you, but don't proclaim that it's what everyone needs.

No screen?

[rsilvergun]

Then again it is Apple, and I'd be willing to give up the screen to know the quality was spot on. I've been eyeing those Creative Nuvos, but I've heard good and bad about them. Oh well, if I can mount it under Linux I'm sold :).

mini!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

The most important announcement for me, is the Mac mini. I know hordes of Windows users (victims) willing to try that marveles piece of afordable mac wonder.

From iPod Shuffle website

[m_dob]

2. Do not eat

http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/

Photos of the kit

[Rokewaju]

Spymac http://www.spymac.com/ has photos of the new gear. Maybe time to bust open the piggy bank

More importantly...

[pedestrian crossing]

Will Pages be MS Word compatible?

More importantly, will it be OO.O compatible?

Re:More importantly...

[Anonymous Coward]

Compatible with the number zero? I should think so - though I'm not entirely sure what compatibility with a number has to do with anything.

</end shameless stab at the poor marketing of OO.o>

Re:More importantly...

[SewersOfRivendell]

Nope. Until there's a Mac native version of OO.o, it's not even on Apple's radar.

No, X11 does not count. Neither does NeoOffice in it's current state.

Re:More importantly...

[kitzilla]

And this is important because ... ;-)

In all seriousness, I'd assume it handles RTF. Don't see why we'd expect Apple to import/export .swf, given the nearly non-existent Mac Open Office user base.

Re:More importantly...

[pedestrian crossing]

I don't know that I would expect them to export .swf, but why not import? It's an open spec.

Re:More importantly...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you thing that OO.O is actually important in the grand scheme of things, you are a looney.

Re:More importantly...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know that I would expect them to export .swf, but why not import? It's an open spec.

Maybe because it would cost them time and money, while not providing any meaningful benefit?

Re:More importantly...

[d00ber]

Actually, why did they write from scratch? (If that's what they did - maybe they just polished up Appleworks - I couldn't tell.)

Why not rebrand OpenOffice or some other Free word processor like they did with the browser?

A word processor isn't rocket science but it takes a lot of work and time to get it right.

Re:More importantly...

[kitzilla]

> A word processor isn't rocket science but it takes a lot of work and time to get it right.

Absolutely. But I'm guessing they thought Open Office was too heavy and complex. Same reason they bypassed the also-excellent Mozilla for the KHTM rendering engine when they finally stepped out with Safari.

Re:More importantly...

[mrchaotica]

...which makes me wonder why they didn't grab AbiWord.

$499 Mac? Damn

[Anonymous Coward]

Well now that's it's true...damn, even I might buy one!

I'm begining to get the feeling that Steve Jobs might be trying to reposition Apple. Hardware is a mugs game, after all. We all know what happened the last time Apple tried to licence the Mac to clone builders..but what if they tried it now?

It seems to me that over the last two or three years Apple has been working to reposition itself from a hardware company to a more diverse place, where the OS and the services it offers (E.g. iTunes) are what matters more than the hardware. The $499 Mac would seem to enforce that point. The idea is obviously to try and penetrate into the mid range market; make the Mac an everymans computer. If they can do it, and if they can increase their market share, they would certainly seem to have enough room to manovour and licence the Mac to clone builders again..

Wow

[ericdano]

Apple does it again. Amazing. Mini Mac will blow any little Shuttle box away.

Amazing that Apple is the only company to come up with amazing products like it does....

Re:Wow

[Moustache N Tits]

Mini Mac will blow any little Shuttle box away.

totally different markets. The Mini Mac doesn't have anything you can upgrade... the video card is weak (for what little gaming there IS on a mac). Plus, this is a MAC, not a PC, so I don't know why you even think there will be any competition between the two... two totally different markets. But I do like it.. because it will get some PC people to convert.

Amazing that Apple is the only company to come up with amazing products like it does....

you weren't paying any attention at CES were you...

Re:Wow

[bhtooefr]

Look at the specs, and realize that when you take it to a LAN party, you'll get laughed at. 1.25 or 1.42GHz G4, 256MB (up to 1GB) RAM, Radeon 9200 with 32MB RAM.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazing that Apple is the only company to come up with amazing products like it does....
//moments later

"HEY THAT DOG HAS A FLUFFY TAIL!"

--
Posting anything other than praise in an apple thread is trolling...

Re:Wow

[Hawkxor]

It will get PC people to convert, despite the fact that it will not compete with the PC?

Re:Wow

[dcstimm]

well, look at an XBOX, and I take it to a lan party all the time, it has a celeron 733 with a geforce 3, oh and a 10g harddrive with 64mb ram. IF it was meant to play games it would... BUT ITS NOT... GET OVER IT.......

Re:Wow

[ericdano]

There is more to life than attending LAN parties.....Grow up.

Re:Wow

[Moustache N Tits]

you misunderstood me.. it's not competing with Shuttle.. but Macs always compete with PCs...

Re:Wow

[ericdano]

CE What? CES? Yawn.....boring.

Why upgrade when it's so cheap? How often do people actually upgrade their systems? Hardly every. Hell, I have an original G4 Cube that I haven't "upgraded" yet.

If you are living in a cave and playing at LAN parties, then, yeah, you'll want something you can wow your geeky "friends" with. For people who actually work and do stuff, the Mini Mac will be a huge success.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Better than getting laughed at for admitting you go to LAN parties.

Re:Wow

[Zemrec]

These specs are very close to my Al Book '03, except mine has 512MB, Radeon 9600 64MB, and Superdrive. (Not to mention its a notebook with built-in screen, keyboard, trackpad and a battery.)

But still, this new box is 20% the price of the Powerbook, and has almost the same performance.

While my 'book ain't a gaming machine, it can hold its own with UT2003/4 as long as I make a few adjustments. I still prefer my x86 desktop, of course, for games though.

But if all you need is web, email, word proc, and a few other utilities/apps, then this is perfect. Heck, since I rarely use my 'book as a portable anyway, it may even make sense to sell it and get this. I had sort of thought about the iMac G5 when it came out, but decided not to later.

When my financial situation improves (currently unemployed), I may just consider picking this bad boy up.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

>Apple is the only company to come up with amazing products like it does....

When other computer companies management buys the lie that Microsoft innovates, they get what they deserve. The computer using public deserves stable pleasnt to use computers though.

Re:Wow

[Luscious868]

Look at the specs, and realize that when you take it to a LAN party, you'll get laughed at. 1.25 or 1.42GHz G4, 256MB (up to 1GB) RAM, Radeon 9200 with 32MB RAM.

You're missing the point. This is not the kind of system aimed at the hardcore gamer or any kind of avid computer user for that matter. This is the kind of system aimed at the casual computer user who uses his or her PC to browse the web, to send and receive e-mail, to create and edit office style documents and for managing digital media (photo's, home movies, music collection, etc.).

This system is also aimed at someone like me, who is a hardcore PC user who would like to try out a Mac, but who doesn't want to go the used route or shell out a whole lot of money. I just pre-ordered one of these suckers and I can't wait to get my hands on it. If I find that it is really as easy and fun to use as I think it will be, the next time one of my casual computer-user friends calls me up to ask me which system I'd recommend, I'll point them in this direction as well (while saving my money for a brand new PowerMac G5 with dual processors and a cinema display).

This is a system aimed at the casual computer user who until know, has only known the PC as some Dell or Gateway box with Windows installed. Someone who's fed up with Windows and all of the headaches that come along with it. It's aimed at someone who wants a system that is easy to use, secure and has software and hardware available that "just works", but who up until know could not afford (or simply didn't want to waste so much money taking a chance on) a Mac.

Even if I ultimately decided to stick with a PC, I know that Mac's are easier to use and more secure for the average computer user out there. The problem has always been the price. People want a deal. Now I can point them in the Mac direction and say goodbye to the bi-monthly trips to their house to fix their PC's (remove spyware, malware and occasionally just wipe the thing and reinstall everything because it's hopeless) or show them how to use the latest gadget they bought that comes bundled with software that is a pain in the butt to figure out how to use.

All I can say is "Thank you, Steve! What took so long?"

Re:Wow

[bhtooefr]

I agree here. I KNOW the thing is aimed at people with a PC that want to try a Mac out for a change, without having to get a whole new monitor, keyboard, and mouse.

However, here's what I was replying to (a troll, it seems):

Apple does it again. Amazing. Mini Mac will blow any little Shuttle box away.

I was saying that the Mac mini could never hope to blow a Shuttle away. OK, maybe an old SV24, but not much.

However, like someone else who replied to that comment, I agree that the Mac mini is more of a Tranquil or Hush competitor in the SFF space (although that's NOT THE TARGET MARKET!). If I had the money, this'd be one hell of a way to try a Mac.

Re:Wow

[bhtooefr]

Eh... I take that all back:

Lock the Target

Or one 3D game. Go ahead, just try to play Halo on a budget PC. Most say they're good for 2D games only. That's because an "integrated Intel graphics" chip steals power from the CPU and siphons off memory from system-level RAM. You'd have to buy an extra card to get the graphics performance of Mac mini, and some cheaper PCs don't even have an open slot to let you add one.

They WERE targeting budget gamers, too. Of course, looking at this thing, I'm wondering - how good are USB2 TV tuners on Mac? If they're good, then I'm thinking this:

Use a USB TV tuner with Mac PVR software. Use the included DVI to VGA & S-Video/Composite adaptor to go to a TV (Apple even SUGGESTS using the thing as a DVD player). Bam... Mac set-top.

Re:wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, that is quite interesting.

Wow

[choas]

This is gonna be one expensive year (although less than I feared)

This is going to be SO good!

6x6x2.5 inch computer running Macos X!

[JQuick]

Add a USB ethernet to make dual homed firewall?
Add external Firewire storage to make big file server?
Wow!
Great price point to introduce non Apple users to the platform.
What a great box.

Re: 6x6x2.5 inch computer running Macos X!

[burns210]

It has 40 - 80 gigs, so that is quite a lot. Add a stick of ram and you got a badass little server.

Re: 6x6x2.5 inch computer running Macos X!

[Hawthorne01]

No shi'ite. This little thing, combined with Airport Express and/or and El Gato box, will make one hell of a media server. Perfect for hooking up to a plasma TV/Monitor.

And I can get the Mrs. a FlashPod to mollify her so I can get what I want. *vbg*

Best. SteveNote. Ever!

Re: 6x6x2.5 inch computer running Macos X!

[terminal.dk]

Why a USB Ethernet ? Just order it with Airport Express. You probably have wireless anyway.

This one rocks. Too bad is has so much success that the Apple store is down already.

Re: 6x6x2.5 inch computer running Macos X!

[JQuick]

Yes, it does support an internal wireless card but my example was to make it into a firewall.

In the context of a firewall, wireless networking would be far less secure.

Re: 6x6x2.5 inch computer running Macos X!

[Anonymous Coward]

Out of interest.. how big is the power transformer brick that we'd need to supply this 6x6x2.5 inch computer? I wish they had found some way to make it either an integrated unit or made it so it the mac stacks on top of it or something that makes it less messy.

Re: 6x6x2.5 inch computer running Macos X!

[Anonymous Coward]

> Just order it with Airport Express.

And how does that help? Yes you'll then be able to play MP3's through your stereo using iTunes (and only iTunes), but how does that help you otherwise?

Nice

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple exec 1: iGot an iIdea. Let's make an iPod with iShit for memory and sell it for half the iPrice of our device that has 50 times the memory.

Apple exec 2: Let's do this iThing.

Re:Nice

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple exec 1: iGot an iIdea. Let's make an iPod with iShit for memory and sell it for half the iPrice of our device that has 50 times the memory.

Apple exec 2: Let's do this iThing

And everybody buys it. Your point is???

Re:Nice

[Loco3KGT]

512MB and 1024MB of memory is shit memory?

Wow, you'd had my desktop computer. It's got even less.

Or maybe you could go troll somewhere else?

Re:Nice

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple exec 1: iGot an iIdea. Let's make an iPod with iShit for memory and sell it for half the iPrice of our device that has 50 times the memory.

Apple exec 2: Let's do this iThing.

Apple exec 3: ????

Apple exec 4: iProfit!

Re:let me get this out of the way

[DigitalLau]

use your PeeCee's mous and keyboard... and wile youre at it take that clunky piece of junk and play a game or two... child!

Cheap mac?

[Cyn]

Head exploding.

Re:Cheap mac?

[Anonymous Coward]

No no. You mean this:

My head asplode!

Re:Cheap mac?

[Anonymous Coward]

Head exploding.

Which one?

Re:Cheap mac?

[arendjr]

You say that as a joke, but ever heard of this story?

Chessplayer's head explodes

From the Weekly World News, May 24, 1994

Doctors are blaming a rare electrical imbalance in the brain for the bizarre death of a chess player whose head literally exploded in the middle of a championship game!

No one else was hurt in the fatal explosion but four players and three officials at the Moscow Candidate Masters' Chess Championships were sprayed with blood and brain matter when Nikolai Titov's head suddenly blew apart. Experts say he suffered from a condition called Hyper-Cerebral Electrosis or HCE.

He was deep in concentration with his eyes focused on the board," says Titov's opponent, Vladimir Dobrynin. "All of a sudden his hands flew to his temples and he screamed in pain. Everyone looked up from their games, startled by the noise. Then, as if someone had put a bomb in his cranium, his head popped like a firecracker."

Incredibly, Titiov's is not the first case in which a person's head has spontaneously exploded. Five people are known to have died of HCE in spontaneously exploded. Five people are known to have died of HCE in the last 25 years. The most recent death occurred just three years ago in 1991, when European psychic Barbara Nicole's skull burst. Miss Nicole's story was reported by newspapers worldwide, including WWN. "HCE is an extremely rare physical imbalance," said Dr. Anatoly Martinenko, famed neurologist and expert on the human brain who did the autopsy on the brilliant chess expert. "It is a condition in which the circuits of the brain become overloaded by the body's own electricity. The explosions happen during periods of intense mental activity when lots of current is surging through the brain. Victims are highly intelligent people with great powers of concentration. Both Miss Nicole and Mr. Titov were intense people who tended to keep those cerebral circuits overloaded. In a way it could be said they were literally too smart for their own good."

Although Dr. Martinenko says there are probably many undiagnosed cases, he hastens to add that very few people will die from HCE. "Most people who have it will never know. At this point, medical science still doesn't know much about HCE. And since fatalities are so rare it will probably be years before research money becomes available."

In the meantime, the doctor urges people to take it easy and not think too hard for long periods of time. "Take frequent relaxation breaks when you're doing things that take lots of mental focus," he recommends.

Re:Cheap mac?

[Suddenly_Dead]

Weekly world news. Riiight.

Pages?

[th1ckasabr1ck]

Why not iPages? Seems strange to make iEverythingElse and not iPages.

Re:Pages?

[polyhue]

It's not iKeynote is it? I think they separate their "productivity" apps this way.

Re:Pages?

[TomHandy]

I'm not totally clear on Apple's naming conventions, but it seems like some of the productivity apps, etc. generally forego the i name. Keynote, Calendar, Mail, Address Book, etc..... as well as the pro stuff like Motion, Logic, Soundtrack, Final Cut, etc. So I think Pages fits more into that naming convention (GarageBand I guess is sort of in the middle, since it's part of iLife........ but who knows, Keynote and Pages are now part of iWork, so I don't think there are any hard or fast rules to it.

-Tom

Re:Pages?

[Simon Lyngshede]

Except that it's Keynote and not iKeynote

Re:Pages?

[EvilFrog]

The "i" in "iMac" originally stood for "internet," but has since become a designation of Apple's consumer products. None of Apple's product geared towards the professional market have "i" in the name.

Consumer Mac: iMac
Professional Mac: PowerMac

Consumer Laptop: iBook
Professional Laptop: Powerbook

Consumer Video Editing: iMovie
Professional Video Editing: Final Cut Pro

You get the point.

What I find especially interesting is the release of a new consumer product (the Mac Mini) without "i" in the name. This may be a sign that Apple has decided to start moving away from the "i" naming scheme.

Of course, there's still iWork, which includes the aforementioned Pages. I'm guessing that iWork (which includes Pages and Keynote) is a predecessor to a larger professional suite we'll see in the future. That way when they start pushing Pages as a professional word processor it won't be stuck with the consumer name.

Re:Pages?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know if Apple's Mac OS X version of Pages derives from the NeXTSTEP word processor by the same name. It would be a stretch, but Apple may have purchased the codebase or rights.

http://www.simson.net/nextworld/NextWorld_Extra/94 .04.Apr.NWE/94.04.Apr.NWExtra06.html

Re:Pages?

[PureCreditor]

eMac is already not "i" anything.

Re:Pages?

[mrmez]

uh... the name "Mac Mini" contains two "i"s and therefore saying we've seen 'the release of a new consumer product without "i" in the name' is incorrect. The name doesn't BEGIN with "i" but the letter is certainly in the name.

Re:Pages?

[mapinguari]

Exactly. And it's iCal, not Calendar.

I think it has something to do with what sounds better. Many of the i-stuff are one syllable words (or word fragments). iDVD doesn't scan terribly well, and is probably the most verbose-sounding i-name.

Some i-stuff has a corresponding pro app (iDVD vs. DVD Studio Pro, or iMovie vs. Final Cut). Others don't (like iCal, iTunes, or iPod).

Re:Pages?

[mcc]

This may be a sign that Apple has decided to start moving away from the "i" naming scheme.

Either that or it's a sign the Mac Mini is specifically aimed at a set of people who Apple expects would be embarrassed buying an "i" product.

Re:Pages?

[cosmo7]

Dude, you're being kind of pedantile.

Re:Pages?

[Have Blue]

That's because the Mac Mini is not a consumer product. It's also not a pro product. It's a completely new "first Mac" category, meant for people who want to experiment with a Mac regardless of previous experience.

Re:Pages?

[Anonymous Coward]

... and of course, if you were a mathematician, your reasoning would be called "numerology".

Re:Pages?

[li99sh79]

eMac is already not "i" anything.

That's because the eMac is targetted at schools and the like. e = education.

-sam

Re:Pages?

[six11]

Frog:
I'm guessing that iWork (which includes Pages and Keynote) is a predecessor to a larger professional suite we'll see in the future.

I think you're completely right about this. Apple has this relationship with Microsoft that as long as Apple doesn't encroach on MS's territory (Office), MS will continue to make Office on the Mac. I recently bought a PowerBook and did a pretty wide search for word processing software that ran on OSX. I have yet to find anything that even approaches usable. Frustratingly, AppleWorks does not have the level of usability that you would expect from Apple.

Why would they create a new word processor, rather than continue to build on AppleWorks? Especially because they can't encroach on MS's world, they really have no reason to put lots of effort into building a new word processor. But there they are, releasing a new word processor.

Apple's strategy seems clear to me: get Windows users to become interested in well designed producs like iPod, iPod mini, or the new iPod shuffler. Then, release an affordable Mac that those Windows users can plug their already-owned keyboards, displays, and mice into. Then, down the road, start delivering productivity software that is fully functional, and as well-designed as iLife software like iTunes.

Apple is positioning themselves for war with Microsoft. This can be nothing but good for everybody.

Re:Pages?

[nuggetman]

I's a completely new "first Mac" category, meant for people who want to experiment with a Mac regardless of previous experience.


Maybe they should put it in a red case with big yellow buttons and the words "my first Apple" on it

throw in one of those blue microphones with the red top too

Re:Pages?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yow, you're right. It also matches the emphasis on templates on Apple's site.

Re:Pages?

[phantumstranger]

I first saw this with Spotlight. Everyone Searches but a Spotlight is more fine tuned or bigger depending on how it's used.

Pages. Well, the first thing that came to my mind was Microsoft may be able to do Word(s) we (Apple) do Pages.

Just a thought.

Re:Pages?

[Anonymous Coward]

While I think in general you are correct, the reason that Apple decided to start afresh rather than "build on Appleworks" can be summed up in one word: Cocoa. They wanted to build a new app that was fully integrated into the OS X way of doing things, and that probably required thme to throw away most of their old code.

Re:Pages?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I don't think they'll do that.

Windows and Office are Microsoft's breadwinning products. Even if Apple were to win market share from windows, it won't risk alienating Microsoft by taking out their other big product as well. And it makes no sense for Apple to do that anyway -- Microsoft Office is the defacto office software, and being able to run Office is a big selling point. Years ago Bill Gates urged Apple to license and push the Apple platform as the defacto standard, because he wanted one huge market to which he can sell software to. I don't think Apple clawing back market share will overly worry Microsoft as long as they can still sell software to practically anyone who owns a computer.

Re:Pages?

[mrmez]

I get very annoyed by people saying things which they clearly don't mean. Note that I don't get so annoyed that I literally die - if I did then I clearly wouldn't be alive to type this.

By pedantile are you suggesting that I'm being both pedantic and infantile? If so, too bad - saying that mini contains no "i" is indeed idiotic. That's akin to stating that Mississippi is spelled without an "i" - or stating that cars don't have taillights (hey, they aren't on the front).

Cheap Macs == Parent Machines

[Saint Aardvark]

My parents are looking for a new machine to replace their current Win98 box (shudder). I've been trying to persuade them for a while now to get a Mac, but they've been put off by the price.

Well, between this announcement and Microsoft's latest security fixes (including a fix for the HTML Help cross-scripting vulnerability, yay!), I think I'll finally be able to persuade them.

No, OS X isn't perfectly secure, nor is it Free -- both important considerations. But it will help keep my parents from inadvertantly polluting the Internet with spam, viruses, and trojans, and do a lot better job of it than Windows.

Re:Cheap Macs == Parent Machines

[jonjohnson]

Exactly. This is the computer for my grandparents. I told them I'd keep an eye out for a nice, not-so-used iMac for 400-500, but now they can get a new one now :)

Re:Cheap Macs == Parent Machines

[porcupine8]

Yep - this will be the perfect replacement for my mom's Win98 machine as well as my boyfriend's seven-year-old linux box. Both have long since been convinced to switch to a Mac (my sister and I both have eMacs), but the price has been a sticking point.

Re:Cheap Macs == Parent Machines

[usrusr]

i thought about that as well. particulary the security aspect. i think this "mini-cubemac" will be a huge success with the occasional computer user (who already has either a 0$ used 15-17 inch crt, or a little tft to save room), but whose handed-down windows ME box calls for an upgrade.

now could it happen that they get widespread enough, especially with the typical "i don't care about security as long as i can still get my email" malware audience? i think these could well reach the critical mass to get interesting for botnet operators.

and then apple would finally get the chance to prove themselves in security aspects.

hey, they might even be forced to continue support for 10.n after .n+1 comes out ;)

Re:Cheap Macs == Parent Machines

[ewhac]

I must agree. My mother has no computer, and is starting to miss out on communications with the various groups she's a member of because they're all moving to email. But with all the malware floating around out there, there is simply no fscking way I was going to set her up with a Windows-based box. I've been flirting with the idea of creating a mom-ified Linux box for her, locked down and remotely administratable, but the idea of explaining multiple times why Linux won't run the copy of Quicken she just bought didn't appeal to me.

A Mac would have been nearly ideal, but I dismissed it because it was simply too expensive. That barrier has now been removed.

My mom may be getting her first computer this year.

Schwab

Well, I'm in

[the Man in Black]

Apple, you've finally sold me. I live in a one bedroom apartment with no office and no room for a full desk. The Mac Mini would be perfect for me. I can plug it into my TV and use a wireless Bluetooth keyboard and mouse from the couch. I'm completely sold. I wonder if the graphics card is poerful enough for gaming? Possibly not. Even still, as a word processor/iTunes machine/mp3 storage/IM box, this sounds just perfect. Sign me right up.

Re:Well, I'm in

[Anonymous Coward]

Except for no bluetooth....

Re:Well, I'm in

[the Man in Black]

According to this you can use this for Bluetooth. Sounds good to me.

Re:Well, I'm in

[the_rev_matt]

Mac mini sports a full-fledged ATI Radeon 9200 with 32MB dedicated DDR SDRAM over an AGP 4x bus.

Max of 1920x1200 resolution

Re:Well, I'm in

[syd2000]

From http://www.apple.com/macmini/,

"Or configure your Mac mini with internal Bluetooth to use wireless keyboards and mice."

Re:Well, I'm in

[TheKidWho]

except built in bluetooth is a BTO option.

Re:Well, I'm in

[Aggamemnon]

I've played UT2004 quite happily on the missus' 1Ghz iBook G4 with the same graphics card as the Mac Mini. Chuck some more RAM in and you'll be OK - just don't expect to play Doom 3 :)

Re:Well, I'm in

[Anonymous Coward]

As others have mentioned, it's not a graphics powerhouse, but it's got the same 32 megs of VRAM that my iBook playing UT2k4 just fine has.

Re:Well, I'm in

[DLWormwood]

I can plug it into my TV and use a wireless Bluetooth keyboard and mouse from the couch.

What kind of TV do you own? This system, like most current PCs and Macs, have DVI and VGA outputs only. No RCA or S-Video without an adapter.

Re:Well, I'm in

[the Man in Black]

I thought the same thing, but then I saw this. It supports an S-Video/Composite adapter. Last I checked the adapter is only a couple bucks. Apple Store is currently very very slow so I can't dig up a link.

Re:Well, I'm in

[squiggleslash]

Except for no bluetooth....

Bluetooth is a BTO option. Take a look at http://www.apple.com/macmini/

Re:Well, I'm in

[adler187]

Oh gaming is no problem on this. From the Warcraft 3 specs it is plenty enough power to run Warcraft 3 and it could run World of Warcraft just fine if you add another 256mb of ram.

Doom 3 wouldnt run however.

Re:Well, I'm in

[doormat]

Enough to run it as 1080i to an HDTV over DVI. Looks good for an HTPC box.

Re:Well, I'm in

[Moofie]

That adaptor costs $20. Deal.

Here we go!

[Mindjiver]

Lame, no wifi, less space than a Nomad

Re:Here we go!

[Anonymous Coward]

You fail it.

Now I have seen everything...

[litac]

Take a look at the bottom of the http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/ iPod Shuffle page on the Apple website. It actually says "Do Not Eat iPod shuffle".

Apple is so secret.......

[BondGamer]

.....that their own web designers didn't know Appleworks was upgraded to iWork. Mac Mini lists Appleworks as included software.

Re:Apple is so secret.......

[Anonymous Coward]

iWork doesnt come with it.

Product Links

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.apple.com/home/ http://www.apple.com/iwork/ http://www.apple.com/macmini/ http://www.apple.com/finalcutexpress/ http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/

Perfect Terminal

[hbuschme]

The Mac Mini will be a perfect X-Terminal to use with a Linux box in another room. You'll have a silent and small box on your desk and the fat and loud server is down in the basement. Great.

Re:Perfect Terminal

[TheRaven64]

It would be seriously over powered for a dumb X terminal. A 100MHz machine is more than you need for an X terminal (assuming that you have enough network bandwidth). $499 is also a lot for an X terminal (You can usually pick up silent X terminals on eBay for a tenth of that). If you want to run X apps on one of these, a better solution would be simply to modify /etc/ttys so that it boots to X or a command-line login and install Fink/DarwinPorts/pkgsrc (whichever you prefer) and run the Apps locally. Or just install Linux/NetBSD/your favourite non-Darwin *NIX.

Re:Perfect Terminal

[gcantallopsr]

In fact it would be the perfect _server_ for most home networks! You'd have a silent and small box on your desk, and _no_ fat and loud server, anywhere.

Great :-)

Re:Perfect Terminal

[Anonymous Coward]

I love my Macs, but clearly you've never used X11 on one. BALLS slow, even for X apps on the local machine (never mind the network).

Re:Perfect Terminal

[e2mtt]

Well, you get a X terminal PLUS a full blown OSX PC. Very nice.

Re:Perfect Terminal

[Xugumad]

This is more or less what I do at work. We've got Linux servers in the server room, which we ssh to. The Mac has plenty of CPU for e-mail, IM, web surfing, playing music, etc., but the real grunt work we leave to the servers.

We've occaisionally toyed with the idea of moving to G5s for servers, but reliability isn't a serious issue for us, and we do some dang weird stuff, so Linux is an easier option at the moment.

Personally, I'll probably pick one of these up for use at home...

Re:Perfect Terminal

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be seriously over powered for a dumb X terminal.

That's the point. Microcomputing is all about not having to share with others. That means not having to timeshare cycles on a minicomputer, not having to share the network bandwidth for X traffic, and not having to share disk space with other people.

Re:Perfect Terminal

[Pfhor]

Or just use the built in X11 server and still run *nix apps remotely, but organize your photos, movies, music, etc. locally.

I STILL want a central Music Server for all my machines, that lets me sync my ipod with music from my computer in the other room, or lets me check out albums to bring on my laptop with me. A machine like this makes a small house server possible.

Re:Perfect Terminal

[Jozer99]

Thats one crazy expensive X Terminal.

Re:Perfect Terminal

[Thu25245]

So long as you're into overkill, why not get a dual 2.5GHz G5 and a Cinema display to use as a terminal?

Re:Perfect Terminal

[dasunt]

I love my Macs, but clearly you've never used X11 on one. BALLS slow, even for X apps on the local machine (never mind the network).

There is always the Debian PPC port, and the BSD's PPC ports as well.

I'd probably do that anyways since I'm not really fond of MacOS X (no troll intended).

OTOH, mini-ITX would work just as well, probably be as quiet, and may be cheaper.

Re:Perfect Terminal

[leandrod]

> Microcomputing is all about not having to share with others.

Problem is, except for gaming, 3D animations, video and the like, sharing is good and not sharing is dumb.

For a fraction of the price of full-blown PCs for each person in a house, building or block, you can have one big, mean server and X terminals or Sun Rays in each room. Usually the CPU and bus is idle waiting for users' input or peripherals, so you not only get a fraction of the cost but also the full speed of a multiprocessing machine with fast buses. Finally, you get a professionally managed server, and with free software all the programs you could need with no virus, no worries about installation and licensing...

Re:Perfect Terminal

[leandrod]

> We've got Linux servers in the server room, which we ssh to.

No need even for ssh, you can have diskless X terminals booting from the same host it will open an X session into, or a terminal with X in the firmware that uses XDMCP to find the most available host.

Re:Perfect Terminal

[jsebrech]

I'd probably do that anyways since I'm not really fond of MacOS X (no troll intended).

What do you think is wrong with it? Really, I'd like to know. I don't own a mac myself, but from what I've seen from the most recent releases of mac os x, it blows away any other operating system for anything except gaming.

Re:Perfect Terminal

[dasunt]

I disagree with MacOS's windowing environment. I know its a paradigm of user friendlyness and UI sexiness, but I prefer *gasp* FVWM just for the whole 'this isn't sexy, this isn't pretty, but if you want to hack up some counterintuitive interface that you like, go right ahead'.

Combine that with the fact that almost all of my apps are unix/linux, it seems easier just to wipe MacOS off a system, grab a PPC port, and do a fresh install. I have the WM I like, and a system that I can tweak. :)

Re:Perfect Terminal

[jsebrech]

I understand. You're a tweaker. You perceive time spent tweaking and optimizing the system for yourself to be of positive value. You like it when you get a construction kit, and you get to assemble it just the way you want it, which isn't necessarily the way focus testing would suggest it should be.

Most people (myself included) have the reverse position. They consider time spent tweaking to be of negative value, or time lost. They want someone to do all the hard work of figuring out the most easy to use and/or efficient way, and then providing them with a system that does just that. Apple excels at this, and it's the reason my next system will be a mac.

Screenless IPod ain't so bad

[Mablung]

I dropped my IPod in a puddle a few months after I got it, and after that the screen would come and go. If you've got all your settings the way you like them and you just randomize your whole playlist, it works just fine.

Re:First shuffle!

[prockcore]

But no display on the iPod Shuffle? WTF?


From what I've read, there's no playlists on the iPod Shuffle. It just randomly plays songs. Knowing Apple, there's probably going to be just one button.. Play/Pause.

iPod Shuffle

[Anonymous Coward]

and mac mini first pictures

Re:iPod Shuffle

[Roguelazer]

Automatic iTunes sync, and the iTunes shuffle playlist thingie, both of which sound pretty cool. Plus, 512MB for $99 is extremely competitive for one of those little doohickeys. A quick search found similar 512MB devices for $139.99 to $199.99. 1GB devices were even more expensive.

Cat names

[allanc]

I finally got around to plowing through Niven's Known Space series of books.

Anybody else want an OSX version named 'Kzin' to come out?

Just me?

[yak_7]

Just me, or has apple been slashdotted?

Re:Just me?

[saddino]

Appledotted.

Re:Just me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Acctually the Apple store is always like this after a Keynote.

Re:Just me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just you.

Unless you mean the store, which was down before the story even hit /..

Re:Just me?

[nacturation]

Just me, or has apple been slashdotted?

You think Slashdot manages to serve up more clicks than the horde of millions of loyal Apple fans? You must be really new around here!

Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting one..

[WIAKywbfatw]

The Mac Mini looks like it's the thing for me. I've never owned a Mac in my life - I've used a few in my time and I've been to a few Mac Expos with Mac-owning friends - but I think that's about to change.

This is the Mac for all of us who said Macs were too expensive. For around £400 (yeah, Apple just like the rest of them loves screwing non-Americans when it comes to exchange rates) I'll have a nice little toy that'll give me some first-hand experience of MacOS 10.4 plus my girlfriend will have a easy-to-use machine that she can play with when I'm hogging my PC.

Hopefully, it'll work with the PS/2 keyboards and mice that I've got lying around, if not then I suppose that I'll be shelling out for USB ones but that's no great loss.

Mark my words: these babies are going to sell like hot cakes.

Headless iMac

[l0wland]

Here's a scoop.

Say...

[Cyn]

The iPod Shuffle is pack-of-gum sized, no screen, weighs less than an ounce... and no screen.

Let me guess - it also is pack of gum sized, has no screen, and weighs less than an ounce? And has no screen, and is pack of gum sized, and weighs less than an ounce? And weighs less than an ounce, and is pack of gum sized, and has no screen? ... etc.

In other news - this does actually price compete with some of those flash based players afaik (though I haven't really priced them in some time) - good way to stranglehold people into buying from iTunes (can't blame them).

Re:Say...

[zaffir]

Are you implying that you can only play music from iTunes on your iPod? If so, you're dead wrong.

Watch the server melt....

[mooreBS]

The Apple Store is down. Guess you'd better call 'em.

What about the screen?

[rograndom]

The iPod Shuffle is pack-of-gum sized, no screen,, weighs less than an ounce... and no screen

That's all well and good, but does it have a screen?

Re:What about the screen?

[falcon5768]

if you look at how its designed... there is no need of a screen.

No-button mouse...

[Ryano]

...in fact no mouse at all with the Mac Mini. Perhaps the following line from Apple's Mac Mini page was intended to answer the Slashdot crowd's inevitable response:

And yes, Mac mini will take advantage of your two-button USB mouse with scroll-wheel and your favorite USB keyboard. Just plug them in.

Re:No-button mouse...

[gwoodrow]

Disney already made Minnie Mouse. Apple's just covering their bases to avoid lawsuits.

Re:No-button mouse...

[pjt48108]

That's what I thought when I read it.

Pictures online at the Apple Store

[PenguinRadio]

http://www.apple.com/store

but it is crashing pretty hard. Basically 1/3 of a cube. Smooth looking. Ports in back, CD slit in front and that's about it.

Bet you could make a cool cluster out of these.

Re:Pictures online at the Apple Store

[shawnce]

Don't go to the store that is slower... but yeah Apple.com is getting hammered big time at the moment.

iWork
Mac mini
iPod shuffle
Final Cut Express (new version)
iLife '05

Re:Pictures online at the Apple Store

[falcon5768]

And you can even use Apple cluster making software to do it.... Apple has pretty much all the bases covered now.

Links to New Products

[notmuch]

iLife'05 http://www.apple.com/ilife/
iWork'05 http://www.apple.com/iwork/
Mac Mini http://www.apple.com/macmini/
iPod Shuffle http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/

Way to go - Apple Rocks

Re:Links to New Products

[Anonymous Coward]

Click on the iPod Shuffle link and there's a funny warning message at the bottom.

Do not eat iPod shuffle.

Hahahahha!

ThinkSecret

[AC-x]

I bet ThinkSecret feel vindicated (tho not as vindicated as they'll feel if Apple's lawsuit fails!)

My gosh that thing is small

[JHromadka]

The Mac mini weighs 2.7 pounds. That's less than any Apple laptop (granted without the LCD). I see people taking this in the car and plugging them into those LCD screens. I'll be buying one as a general purpose computer and maybe to try out Tiger Server when it comes out. As for the iPod shuffle, I lost my USB stick, so this would replace it nicely.

Not as dumb as you think...

[moofdaddy]

There will be a lot of bitching about the new iPod not having a screen. However I say that apple has done it once again. You have to understand the market for the new iPod, it is not meant to hold your entire music folder, its not meant to go with you on long drives.

The new iPod is for the runners, for the people who take it with them to the gym, etc. These are people who wouldn't be navigating songs anyway, they just toss on a playlist, hit shuffle and go. This is exactly what the new ipod does, with only 200 songs, you don't really need to select your songs.

If you want a display, if you want to hold other stuff, this iPod isn't for you, get the other ones. If you just want to listen to music while you work out, then this is exactly what you want.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Selfbain]

Sure, just as long as you don't want to play a specific song. I'm an ipod owner and while I wouldn't mind owning one of the shuffles for the same reasons you list, I'm not buying it if I can't turn off the random feature.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Selfbain]

Scratch that, I'm an idiot. You can turn it off.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[SnowDog74]

This is precisely the point I made to a friend a minute ago... One of the most difficult things to do in the business world is push a truly revolutionary design concept. But we've seen Apple buck conventional wisdom many times... and every PC user on earth should be glad they did.

Here, Apple's design people did their homework, again, figured out how people really use these devices in their day-to-day life activities, and got rid of a few superfluous things that... well, I know everybody loves "that button", but if they have no idea what "that button" does... wouldn't it be wiser to get rid of it?

Apple's mantra is simplicity ... but their genius is delivering simplicity that still has enormous functionality in its given economy of scale.

Pushing boundaries is what Apple does best. That doesn't always mean adding more crap to the console... Remember when every stereo component system just "had" to have a graphic or parametric EQ unit? And now? If people don't use it, why is it there?

These are the kind of questions Apple's people apparently ask when brainstorming new ideas... and here they have the perfect opportunity to leverage the Mac platform's security, functionality, design and user-friendliness against the Windows PC market in a very big, very threatening way.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Anonymous Coward]

of course you would say that, you are a fanboy.

its a inferior product. give me a break. they couldnt put small lcd on. that is a joke.

but apple fans will rejoice that it is the best thing in the world, just like they claim the cube was wonderful.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[MikeXpop]

If you just want to listen to music while you work out, then this is exactly what you want.

The thing I don't get about this is why bother getting an iPod at all? So you can say "I have an iPod"? The reason people love the iPod is because it's control is so intuitive. With this, there's no control, so why not bother getting a cheaper 3rd party brand (if one exists)?

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[kitzilla]

> The new iPod is for the runners, for the people who take it with them to the gym, etc

Exactly. Commuters, too. Load Shuffle before bed, take a whole day's music (and much more) out the door in the morning. Always different. Freakin' genius. Once again, Apple changes how we manage our music.

Total home run. Well done, Apple. Watch the "random" meme spread to other product categories.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[mapmaker]

However I say that apple has done it once again.

Right, cuz there aren't already a bazillion small screenless internal-flash-based mp3 players on the market...

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[cvdwl]

Small LCD = power consumption & price.

If the audio quality is good and the setup is easy, this is golden.

Yes, I'm buying... when the inevitable undersupply problem dies down... after the first round of bugs is worked out. I've been looking for a PC small enough to take home, but didn't feel like splurging on an ibook... yet. At this price point, rebuilding my old P3 with a new case and drives suddenly seems more like a waste of time and money.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[superdan2k]

Exactly. I'd prefer not to torch my iPod on the bike or while climbing, so a cheap-o $99 iPod shuffle is definitely getting added to my arsenal of geektoys.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[prockcore]

Load Shuffle before bed, take a whole day's music (and much more) out the door in the morning. Always different. Freakin' genius. Once again, Apple changes how we manage our music.

Give me a break. Even Nike has a flash mp3 player that does shuffle. It even has an arm band, designed specifically for runners.

The iPod Shuffle is not innovative, or revolutionary. In fact, it's identical to the players already available by *shoe* companies.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, one reason would be that the other 3rd party players won't play music from the iTMS, at least not without converting it.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[hoggoth]

> Watch the "random" meme spread to other product categories.

It's already happening.
Just today I saw an ad for a new Microwave oven that cooks your food on a random temperature for a random length of time! Surprise!
And then there's the clothes washer that picks a random cycle; What will it be today? Color? Whites? Gentle?
My favorite is the new service from eTrade that shuffles your stock portfolio. Takes all the effort out of trading!

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Bullet-Dodger]

Would you care to provide a link to one that's as small, light, cheap, and has as much room? As well as syncing as nicely with the music on your computer. (Not trolling, I'd actually like to know)

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[painandgreed]

The thing I don't get about this is why bother getting an iPod at all? So you can say "I have an iPod"? The reason people love the iPod is because it's control is so intuitive. With this, there's no control, so why not bother getting a cheaper 3rd party brand (if one exists)?

1. It doesn't really exist. When I was looking for an MP3 player, a 128 meg was $150. A quick survey seems to show that the price for those has dropped to $99 and some under $150 with 256 meg. Apple with 512 meg at $99 undercuts at least some of the competition.

2. It syncs with iTunes and gives you ability to develop your playlists with the application you use to listen to and organize your music on your computer (assuming you do).

3. It's a name brand and if nothing else, it's pretty easy to find out where to take it if it breaks. You might save money on a no-name mp3 player of equal ability, but without name recognition you have no idea if their product is crap or not.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?desc ription=55-102-169&depa=0

OK, so it's $25 more. But it has a screen, an FM tuner, and a voice recorder.

It syncs pretty nicely with Windows Media Player 10.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[mapmaker]

Here's one that's smaller, lighter, just as cheap, and has just as much room. Plus it has an LCD screen, voice recorder and FM radio.

This ipod shuffle really is just a "me too" product.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want a display, if you want to hold other stuff, this iPod isn't for you, get the other ones. If you just want to listen to music while you work out, then this is exactly what you want.
But, but, but... What if I wanna do both?? Geez, you make it sound like iPods are the only way to go. But I suppose this is the wrong forum to be talking about diversity of mp3 player options.

Personally, I despise hard drive mp3 players. I like to work out with mine and I don't want to be switching back and forth. I like to see what I'm playing (I test out new songs on the player). And I also use it for my commute.

Geez people, iPods aren't everything... That being said, that does look pretty damn sexy.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[kitzilla]

> Give me a break. Even Nike has a flash mp3 player that does shuffle.

And iTunes already shuffles, true. But buildinga player that's predicated on a randomized playlist is a rather different idea, designed to expose the digital music collectons we keep on iTunes.

It's not just that the player shuffles, but that it pulls a random playlist out of your much-larger master collection and airs them out.

Shuffle's interface is both innovative and daring.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Scott Hussey]

I'm one of those runner types and I'd say the only thing that would have been a nice addition is a AM/FM receiver. At most gyms, TV station audio is piped to different FM freqs. I'll leave it to the Apple genius boys how to build that into this interface. Possibly voice alert to what frequency you are tuned too.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[nacturation]

My favorite is the new service from eTrade that shuffles your stock portfolio. Takes all the effort out of trading!

The real kicker is that, using this method, studies have shown you get better returns than a professional fund manager.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Pfhor]

Yes, but do they have USB rechargeable batteries?

I just checked to replies links that include alternatives, and it doesn't mention the power at quick glance.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Frank of Earth]

Shhhhh.. don't spoil it for all the Mac crazed fans. This the day they have been waiting for all year.

Repeat after me... flash based mp3 players without a screen and shaped like a tampon are rev-o-lu-tion-ary

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Moofie]

Let's compare Nike's marketshare six months from now with Apple's. I think it will be interesting.

It doesn't need to be "innovative" or "revolutionary", it just has to be well designed.

The market will choose.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[porcupine8]

I just checked to replies links that include alternatives, and it doesn't mention the power at quick glance.

One of them, at least, runs on a AAA battery. Without rechargeables, that could get expensive. With, you have the annoyance of having to change out the battery after every 15 hours of listening. My digital camera takes rechargeable AAs, and man, I really wish I could just charge it while I'm downloading pics. It's annoying to have to take the charger & spare batteries with me every time I travel.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[StevenHenderson]

As a fellow runner, I can say that this would be nice. Also, the armband ought to be included. I see why they didnt do that though...all about being able to sell it for less than $100....

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[plastik55]

If by "smaller and lighter" you mean "50% wider, 70% heavier and twice as thick." Try again dude.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Anonymous Coward]

The audio quality isn't going to be fantastic, it only has a line-out, which is okay for most. If you're really concerned, you can purchase something like the M-Audio Sonica or one of their Firewire Audio interfaces.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Anonymous Coward]

weight: 145%
thickness: 181%
width: 143%
cost: 117%
length: 87%

4/5 isn't bad :-)

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Scudsucker]

Plus it has an LCD screen, voice recorder and FM radio.

True, true and true.

smaller, lighter, just as cheap, and has just as much room

False, false, false, true.

The Shuffle is 2 millimeters shorter, 12 millimeters narrower, and half as thick. The Jetflash weighs 3 grams more, and thats WITHOUT the battery. The 1 gig version is $4 more than the Shuffle of the same size, but the half gig version is 14% more expensive than Apple's.

This ipod shuffle really is just a "me too" product.

Only if you count a cheaper model at half the size to be "me too". Yes, the Jetflash has a voice recorder, for the .0005% of the population that needs one. The built in radio is a nice feature, if the reception is good, for those who want it.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking SHUFFLE is revolutionary? Holy fuck, you'll eat anything, won't you?

Unless you were trolling, then great, you got me.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Anonymous Coward]

ahem... at 150 for a gig of music?

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[bware]

Give me a break. Even Nike has a flash mp3 player that does shuffle. It even has an arm band, designed specifically for runners.

Yeah, my gf just spent something like $250 getting one of those from Nike with a whole 256M of memory (and a pedometer). We spent an hour setting up the lousy (compared to iTunes) jukebox/download software.

She's boxing it up tonight to send back and placing her order for the Shuffle.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[LS]

They would have put a screen on it (a small monochrome LCD would not be that expensive), but then they'd probably cannibalize their high-end iPod sales. They had to cripple this just enough so that it wouldn't hurt their top seller.

LS

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Refrag]

Mod the parent up.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Edgewize]

Give me a break. Even Nike has a flash mp3 player that does shuffle. It even has an arm band, designed specifically for runners.

The iPod Shuffle is not innovative, or revolutionary. In fact, it's identical to the players already available by *shoe* companies.

Wrong. The iPod shuffle is called an iPod and is made by Apple, while the Nike players are not.

Compare sales figures in six months and tell me how identical that makes it.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Fwonkas]

Plus it has an LCD screen, voice recorder and FM radio.

None of which are necessary for a jog. Seriously, I know we're all geeks here, but try to understand why the iPod and the iPod mini succeeded. Hint: it wasn't because of lots of extra special features.

Face it, folks. Apple has managed, with the iPod line, to embody the unix philosophy - do one thing and do it very well.

I know someone is going to point to iPod photo. But the iPod photo has not (as far as I know) been as successful as the basic models.

I used to use a Muvo. It did one thing and did it so-so. I would have been happy with it (despite only 64MB of space and no display) if it weren't so unreliable and if the batteries didn't die every day. Something tells me the iPod shuffle will be a much better product.

I now own a 20GB 4G iPod. The abundance of space is nice, but after owning 4 crappy MP3 players, what I really enjoy is the simplicity and predictability. You know, the same thing I like about grep and cat.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[NivenHuH]

The innovation is shown with the new 'autofill' feature. No other company has made a flash player that can be randomly filled up with your most listened to songs.. *shrug* It makes sense to me..

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Netsnipe]

Perhaps a future iPod Shuffle accessory would implement the LCD display into the earphones/remote attachment.

Why should the player itself have a display if its going to be sitting in your pocket or clipped to your waist most of the time?

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not the point. The point is that in the evening, you'll plug the shuffle into your Mac or PC, and it will automatically remove the music you have on it and replace it with random songs from your collection. That way, 512 MB is suddenly enough: You don't need to carry your whole music collection along with you, but you still get to listen to different things every day.

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, it's identical to the players already available by *shoe* companies.

And will probably outsell them by an order of magnitude. Probably by people who already own either/both an iPod and iPod mini.

This is what marketing is for. Engineering is great, but you need to get the word out. (As DEC learned the hard way.)

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[dvdweyer]

I intend to use mine as a replacement for my USB stick to transfer data between work and home. That it also doubles as a music player which plugs into iTunes is just great!

Re:Not as dumb as you think...

[ozimac]

First time poster long time reader ...

I have a G5 iMac, with over 100GB available on the hard drive.

It has a grand total of 218 songs on it (iTunes) - and my most used playlist has 93 songs.

I love my music ... but I pick and choose which songs I load onto my machine.

I use iTunes as an alternative to the radio. In fact now that I really think about it, this is the way I have always listened to music - either skip the song you dont want - or listen to an album all the way through.

I think the shuffle is perfect:

* it is cheap for a 512 MB flash drive (<$150 AUD)
* i can use it as a flash drive and music player
* it is made by apple and so will actually Plug and Play
* plays music the way i listen to music
* its tiny

You don't need to be a jogger to want one of these. Not everyone needs 4+ GB of storage on their portable music player.

I guess we'll see ...

Let me be the first to say...

[Anonymous Coward]

"No wireless. Less space than a nomad." No display. "Lame."

Mini Mac

[Anonymous Coward]

The small size is intriguing... I can imagine that 10 years from now, people will carry their computer around in their pocket, and plug into a display/keyboard kiosk at home or work or wherever.

Maybe then the mongo desktop systems we have today will seem like the old room-filling "Big Iron".

iPod Shuffle Just What I Need

[Synesthesiatic]

The iPod shuffle is EXACTLY what I need. I already have a regular iPod, but I need a flash player for jogging. Obviously I won't be screwing around and looking for a specific song while I'm running, so I won't miss the screen. This is perfect!

I wouldn't get one for my main player though...

The iDildo!

[Man in Spandex]

Apple's latest digital music device, the iPod shuffle, is shaped like a long, thin rectangle with beveled edges

The girls will surely like this one ;)

Re:The iDildo!

[protohiro1]

For those people who are jumping on some sort of strange psychosexual projecting with this thing (it looks like a tampon! it looks like a dildo! Its the iphallus!). It has corners. It is rectangular. Has the stick of gum become the new shape of male virility? When the hell did that happen? And how?

Re:The iDildo!

[Anonymous Coward]

Has the stick of gum become the new shape of male virility

yes.

Stick of gums come in all shapes and sizes and that's what girls also like.

Re:The iDildo!

[uthanda]

Actually it's already been done in the form of the iBrator.

Re:The iDildo!

[TheRaven64]

The girls will surely like this one ;)

Only 8.4mm thick? I really doubt they will...

Re:The iDildo!

[runlvl0]

The iDildo! ...the iPod shuffle, is shaped like a long, thin rectangle with beveled edges... -Man in Spandex (775950)

If your penis is a long, thin rectangle with beveled edges, maybe it's time to give up on the spandex, Plastic Man. :^)

One solution to iPod Shuffle no screen

[Nom du Keyboard]

One solution to dealing with the iPod Shuffle's lack of a screen is build them small enough that they can only hold 2 songs. This way you only need an On/Off button and an Other Song button. And that will save case space as well.

Re:One solution to iPod Shuffle no screen

[Anonymous Coward]

It would make porting Linux a lot easier too!

Re:One solution to iPod Shuffle no screen

[Anonymous Coward]

They could also design it to hold up to 1024 songs and put ten dip switches on the case. Then, you just need to know the number of the song you want in binary and key it in using the dip switches.

Re:One solution to iPod Shuffle no screen

[chrism238]

and an Other Song button.

That may be a little confusing; why not a Forwards and a Backwards button?

Re:One solution to iPod Shuffle no screen

[acey72]

Easier solution - get into '70's prog rock and you'll only fit two songs, complete with guitar/bass/drum/triangle solos, onto a 1 gig iShuffle

Re:One solution to iPod Shuffle no screen

[b1t r0t]

If you build them small enough to hold zero songs, you don't even need the on/off button.

Re:One solution to iPod Shuffle no screen

[Skibbering]

iPod frozen.. must give three finger salute... only has two buttons... much confusion...

Re:One solution to iPod Shuffle no screen

[noidentity]

[...] build them small enough that they can only hold 2 songs. This way you only need an On/Off button and an Other Song button.

I can't believe you missed this obvious optimization: by reducing the song capacity by a mere song, you can cut the number of buttons in half!

Re:One solution to iPod Shuffle no screen

[lowmagnet]

I would suggest "Tales From Topographic Oceans" by Yes. Every song is 15-20 minutes. I also enjoy longer Tangerine Dream songs.

The problem is easily solved though. [Time] [is less than] [4:00] in a playlist, then shuffle-sync from that.

And the longer the song, the better. That's why I have the 20 gig iPod :)

Re:One solution to iPod Shuffle no screen

[Bill Wong]

there's only two songs, so you don't need a backwards button. ... in fact, you don't even need a 'power' button, all such a device needs is a single "next track" button, which you can press-and-hold-for-X-seconds to turn on/off.

No Spreadsheet?

[NardofDoom]

I'm suprised there's no spreadsheet app in iWork. I'd imagine that a lot of people need an Excel compatible spreadsheet.

Oh well, I guess I'm sticking with NeoOffice/J for a little while longer.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[jmelloy]

Steve Jobs said it was coming "soon" ... must not've made the deadline.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[nine-times]

I've wondered if part of the strategy is to not make a complete competitor to MS Office. There's been a lot of talk about, if Apple releases iWork, MS will pull support for Office X, and suddenly Mac looks like a less-promising option for a lot of businesses. So maybe by not completing the suite, Apple's dodged that bullet? It's more common for non-business people to need a word processor anyhow.

Even if this is the case, it doesn't mean that there isn't an Excel clone in the works. Apple might be holding off, perfecting it, and working on Mail/AddressBook/iCal compatibility with Exchange Server, so that if they release the whole thing and MS pulls the plug on office, it'll be no great loss because they'll have a superior solution ready. Who knows?

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[Elwood P Dowd]

The page layout features in Pages make it look like it might be better (different) than other products that are just for layout or just for word processing. Kindof like Keynote is better (different) than PowerPoint. This might be desireable for people that already have another layout or word processing application.

Give them time for a spreadsheet app. They haven't figured out a way to make it better than Excel. Unsurprisingly.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[taybin]

MS Excel is an amazing piece of software. I'm sure it'll take more time to match its features than for a wordprocesser.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[Anonymous Coward]

If by "amazing", you mean "bug-ridden, festering pile of slug snot", then I agree. Granted, it has many features, but it's a pain in the ass.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[duran.goodyear]

How many college students do you know that use a spread sheet or database (access)???

this is perfect for the liberal arts student or what ever who just needs to write a paper or make a presentation.

Apple knows who they are selling to.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[Llywelyn]

"How many college students do you know that use a spread sheet or database (access)???"

Spread sheet? Almost all of them. I know fewer people who use PowerPoint than who use Excel, particularly on a regular basis. Those people I know who didn't use excel used something as a substitute--Mesa or OO.o.

Of course, I majored in mathematics at an engineering university, but the point remains that spreadsheets are an enormously useful and popular app, especially among college students.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that's exactly right. iWork is an AppleWorks replacement, so it is a low-end suite. It's more of a MS Works equivalent than a Office equivalent, and is more of a complement to Office than a competitor.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[Anonymous Coward]

They may be working on one which performs accurate calculations. EXCEL will never be accepted for anything subject to peer review.
I'd love something which could perform basic statistics and accurate calculations. I could live without my secret vice - Pivot table - in exchange for that.
SAS is a pain for the small stuff.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[keytoe]

I believe the iWork moniker is intended to be the counterpart to the iLife package. Over the years, Apple has added new applications to the iLife bundle, and I assume they'll do the same with iWork. There were rumors running around about an app called Cells - which fits the naming scheme.

Apple is already firing a shot across Microsoft's bow with this - and firing two shots at once by releasing a word processor and spreadsheet might have been a bit much. Who knows - maybe Keynote and Pages are enough on their own to push MS out of the Mac market...

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, no DB module like AW 6 had either..

These two omitions make iWork *useless* to more than half of the AW 6 users out there that, like myself, refuse to buy Microsofts crap at any price...

damnit...

I'll hold out hope for iWork 1.1, but I won't hold my breath.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[Llywelyn]

Have you tried Aabel (for multivariate work) or Prism?

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[slapout]

Kind of like:

Use Mac MS Office for work
Use iWork at home

?

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[HarveyBirdman]

Appple always does this. The 1.0 product has some weel done essentials. Then they add stuff, like the way GarageBand got added to the iLife collection.

I may get iWork. I've been looking for a way to do animated, standalone presentations.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[Shag]

Microsoft Office 2004 Mac doesn't have a DB module either, you know. Not that this is a Bad Thing, since if it did, that would mean Access, and... well.... ew.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[porcupine8]

I had the same thought. Appleworks' spreadsheet is okayish for basic stuff, but you start to hit walls with it pretty quickly. It doesn't even have multi-page workbooks, for crying out loud. I was very disappointed that they didn't include that.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[jacrawf]

Exactly. FileMaker is meant to fill that role, and it does an OK job of it. If you're on the Mac and you need an easy-to-use database, go FileMaker. (Heck, they're owned by Apple.)

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[Moofie]

Yeah, they only shipped a new affordable computer, a new affordable MP3 player, a new affordable word processor and presentation package, and new versions of their DVD authoring software and their music organization software and their photo organization software and their superb entry-level movie editing software.

Lazy fucks. Where's my spreadsheet?

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[buttersnout]

I was really hoping for vector graphics. I still use old appleworks 6 for this since ms office doesn't have it. Illustrator is expensive and I don't need that much. People always ask me "Did you really draw that" when I give presentations. I hope that they will add drawing to iwork. I could see before that keynote was the first of an office suite. I think there will be drawing and spreadsheet hopefully soon

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[WJMoore]

I don't think iWork will be an issue regarding stealing business from Office, potentially resulting in MS dropping Office:mac. The reason? They don't include it for free with new machines like iLife. If it came free then I think it would be a whole different story.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[iphayd]

Push MS out of the Mac market? Umm, you do realize that the Mac Division of Microsoft is profitable? As in, it would look really, really badly to some federal judges if they were to pull out of the market.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[Shag]

Been there. Done that. In some sense, I'm still there, since I have FM6Developer on my Powerbook. But... oh, the sheer ugliness I have seen people inflict upon one another with FileMaker. And its "I'm going to randomly resize several windows NOW, so there!" behavior makes it anathema to me.

Someday, we'll all have easy-to-use interfaces to SQL RDBMSes. Unfortunately, people will still use them to set up one huge fscking table with 200 fields per row... sigh.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[MonkeyT]

Spreadsheets and Databases are obviously on their way. OS X Tiger includes SQLite and Core Data (which lets developers handle relational data in memory easily, as well as import and export XML). Until then, MySQL is ready and waiting (OS X is Unix-based, after all). Apple is already encouraging developers to use these things. Just how long do you think it'll be before Apple has a nice friendly interface for consumers? How long before some enterprising third party does it for them if they don't?

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[nine-times]

You sure about that? They used to include AppleWorks for free.

Re:No Spreadsheet?

[keytoe]

As if bundling a browser didn't look bad to a judge. As if bundling a media player didn't look bad to a judge. As if pulling support for the Mac BU and looking bad to a judge would actually hurt MS in any way.

That said, the profitability of the Mac BU would likely keep MS from dropping it entirely, so I'm not really disagreeing with you on that point. Based on previous moves made, though, they wouldn't care at all about the 'legal ramifications' of such an action.

On the other hand, MS isn't opposed to doing things for a loss in order to further some alternate agenda.

Glad I'm not the only one

[m50d]

getting iFedUp

Re:Glad I'm not the only one

[RatBastard]

Have you priced other USB flash MP3 players? They aren't that much cheaper.

But it's not like most Slashdotters understand the markets for Apple products.

Where's asteroid?

[moofdaddy]

Didn't apple sue a bunch of sites because they leaked info out about asteroid?

Re:Where's asteroid?

[Anonymous Coward]

NAMM expo for music people is in 9 days or so, probably released there along Logic update. I hope.

Not ment for a PC Buyer.

[jellomizer]

The price range is more in the Daddy Can I have that catagory. Usually seeing other peoples macs they want one of their own but the price tag was a bit to high. Now with it at closer to a PC price Daddy may shell out the cash.

Official Apple Site

[SPYvSPY]

Although the front page is still showing the new XServe (i.e., old news), the hardware page has Mac Mini and iShuffle info: here.

BYODKM

[BoomTechnology]

Jobs describes the Mac mini and BYODKM: Bring Your Own Display, Keyboard and Mouse.

LOL. OMG. WTF. TITWAIIHEHO (That Is The Worst Acronym If I Have Ever Heard One)

OK - I thought the "shuffle" was lame too

[Dark Paladin]

I thought it would be just as easy for them to take an iPod Mini, rip out the HDD and put in the flash memory, and call it a day.

But I can see where this idea will pick up. The fact that it works as both a 512 MB/1 GB flash drive as well as a MP3 player makes me go "Well, a regular 1 GB USB drive is $80, so for $99 I can have a 512 MB one that's an MP3 player. Use it for jogging and such."

I jog with my iPod and while it never skips, it is a little odd to have it flopping around inside my sweats pant's pocket. (No comments from the peanut gallery.)

So for people with only $99 - $150, iPod Shuffle will be pretty cool. I'll still probably just get my wife an iPod Mini anyway, since she has over 1 GB of music in her special playlist (which I'm desperate to get off my own iPod. Country does not go in my personal music life, no offense meant.)

But now there's a range:

Cheapo: $99 - $150. No screen, but plug it in, get your playlist, and walk away.

Mid-range: $249. Have some additional tracks for longer drives or periods away from the computer.

Expensive: $299 and up - for the folks who need to carry everything around with them all of the time.

I still wish for an iPod Razor (iPod Mini with the flash and think as a credit card), but I think you can see lots of families where one personal already has an iPod, and wants to get another for the wife/kids but doesn't want to spend $1000 on electronics.

Which, with me, my lovely wife, and my three kids (including a daughter that's listening more and more to her own music), $150 is pretty affordable.

We'll have to see if the market thinks the same.

Re:First shuffle!

[falcon5768]

yeah their was a lot of speculation about this one and it basically was the drive behind Apple making absolutly sure their shuffle really did shuffle. If Im not mistaken there are two players out now that are without screens as well. and truthfully even on my 5 gig iPod original... i never looked at the iPod half the time but instead listened to what played and then fast forward the player if it wasnt something I wanted to hear.

maybe macworldexpo.com should change OS

[Anonymous Coward]

The site's been swamped and mostly unresponsive most of the day... hosted with IIS 6 on Windows Server 2003 it's no wonder.

iMac mini

[Chief Typist]

So it's true...

Wow!

Now I'm wondering if you can shave 0.25" off of the thing and mount it in a 1U rack. The specs seem good for a cheap & simple web server.

Also, I predict that there will be some kind of add-on in the next 6 months that allows you to control this Mac with a infra-red remote -- something to run the CD & DVD without a display attached.

The after-market is going to have a field day with this device!

-ch

Re:iMac mini

[reed]

Just stack them in the corner!

Re:iMac mini

[reed]

Where can I get a little (800x600, 10-15 inch) touchscreen?

Re:iMac mini

[larkost]

Six months... umm it is already out. Keyspan announced it in November, and it just started shipping (yesterday I believe). The remote can either work directly, or through an AirportExpress.

Re:iMac mini

[Chief Typist]

Yeah, a small touchscreen or even a plasma display like on the Roku. That's what I'm talking about -- turn this sucker into a media center...

-ch

Re:iMac mini

[singularity]

As other have pointed out, Keyspan has the exact product already (although they refer to the Express Remote, which is a newer, better version of the Digital Remote).

I have had mine for about two years now. The nice thing is that these devices can be programmed to run an AppleScript when buttons are pressed. Of course AppleScripts can also run shell scripts. You can also launch an application if you want.

This gives you a lot of power. 17 keys gives you a lot of flexibility.

I highly recommend the product. I think I got mine for about $30.

Re:iMac mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Better than IR remotes, add the internal bluetooth BTO option, and control it with your cellphone using Romeo or Salling Clicker.

Re:iMac mini

[Viadd]

Bluetooth is an available option, and there are already programs that will let you control bluetooth macs with your bluetooth phone.

Re:iMac mini

[alset_tech]

Also, I predict that there will be some kind of add-on in the next 6 months that allows you to control this Mac with a infra-red remote -- something to run the CD & DVD without a display attached.

At Macworld, Griffin Technology was demonstrating a new remote (radio, not line-of-site) that interacts with a programmable USB dongle. It ships in a couple of months with an anticipated price tag of $49. Your prayers are already answered.

Re:iMac mini

[_LMark]

Keyspan Express remote has been available for approximately 2 months. I know because I've sold them. Interestingly, it is the first (and only?) device to make use of the USB port on an AirportExpress other than a printer.

Re:iMac mini

[Salvo]

A Bluetooth Remote would be cooler.

I was thinking about this the other day. Bluetooth is ideal for Remote Controlling a Mac 'cos many of them already have Bluetooth, and You don't need line-of-sight. If your Mobile Phone supports Device Menus, you can even get it to work with Salling Clicker, and don't need a remote.

What I'd really like to see are Specialised Bluetooth Remotes. A Device with a Tiny Screen, basically like a T68i without the Phone Component would be good, or an even cheaper option would be a Bluetooth Keyboard which only has Media Keys and no actual Typing Keys.

Re:iMac mini

[FredFnord]

Well, I know I want to play DVDs without a display attached. :-)

-fred

We've slashdotted Apple!

[Altima(BoB)]

Judging the crawl at which the normally bulletproof Apple website is moving, it seems the allure of cheap Apple goodies is what it took to bring the weight of the internet to bear on one of the strongest servers out there.

Raise your glasses, this is a day to remember.

Re:We've slashdotted Apple!

[danigiri]

Remember they are using worldwide network proxy Akamai, that gives a lot of muscle, not enough, it seems. ^_^

Re:We've slashdotted Apple!

[kmare]

I don't think it's because of slashdot... but because of the keynote..

Re:We've slashdotted Apple!

[SilentChris]

"the normally bulletproof Apple website is moving"

Lol. Have you never seen one of their live webcasts before?

Re:We've slashdotted Apple!

[Deslock]

The Apple store was down before it was posted here. I know, I've been trying to order a Mac mini since it was announced a couple hours ago.

Re:We've slashdotted Apple!

[Xyde]

It's not you guys. I was in an IRC channel which was covering the keynote earlier and it had 1876 users in it. (all hitting refresh on apple.com) I'm sure slashdot has something to do with it as well, but there are about 10 of these channels plus other sites doing live coverage. I wouldn't be suprised if there were about 50,000 - 100,000 people trying to access it at this point.

Re:We've slashdotted Apple!

[Anonymous Coward]

While the awesome power of /. is enough to make George Foreman Grills everywhere tremble with fear, the millions of Mac fanatics worldwide who bide their time patiently awaiting new instructions from Steve are more to blame.

Re:We've slashdotted Apple!

[Anonymous Coward]

Website != webcast

It's one thing to bring down a server trying to deliver streaming video. It's quite another to bring down a server delivering simple HTML. Apple's web servers almost never show any delay, even on high-traffic days like Macworld keynotes.

Re:We've slashdotted Apple!

[abruvik]

Maybe they are running it on an iPod shuffle

Re:We've slashdotted Apple!

[CyNRG]

No. This is much bigger than SlashDot. The Apple store server grid is more than big enough to handle slashdotting. This is the greatest showman since P.T. Barnum flexing his marketing muscle worldwide.

(My Apple ][ still runs fine! Yeah, ChopLifter!)

Re:We've slashdotted Apple!

[SilentChris]

Uh, they DO. You don't remember the 1999 keynote? Or the iPod one? The entire apple.com domain was dragged down. People only care now because Apple is mass market.

Re:We've slashdotted Apple!

[evangellydonut]

Akami can be blamed for that...

Re:We've slashdotted Apple!

[LMariachi]

They didn't do a live webcast this year.

Re:We've slashdotted Apple!

[Frank of Earth]

You must forgive him, that's culmination of years of brainwashing.

Re:We've slashdotted Apple!

[Anonymous Coward]

To be absolutely honest, the Slashdotting meme is starting to die. There are more and more sites out there that are just as big as Slashdot in terms of users, and they are directing users to interesting sites in similar ways.

It's sad to say, but I think Slashdot is just one of many now - I'd say there are probably a good 10 to 20 community sites that could give Slashdot a run for its money.

Mac Mini

[sometwo]

Engadget has some pictures of the mac mini http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000590026982/ It's about 1/3 the size of the cube- looks smaller than most external cd drives. They're going to cell millions.

iLife?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that Apple's rescue project that will bring back life to my iPod whose battery is now completely dead and can only play music for 20 minutes after a recharge?

Seriously Apple. If I spend US300$ on an iPod it should last me more than a year, shouldn't it? I would recommend making some products with some quality instead of making more and more new iWhatever. Otherwise I think people will see through your well designed exterior eventually.

Re:iLife?

[nek]

Dumbass. $50 gets you a new battery you can install yourself in 5 minutes.

Re:iLife?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually $30. Google it. Dumbass. :)

As for the grandparent, if it's been less than a year, send it to Apple for warranty service.

Don't EAT iPod?

[Aetrix]

http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/ The caption under the "gum" picture reads, "iPod Shuffle: Smaller than a pack of gum and much more fun.(2)"

(2) "Do not eat iPod shuffle."

Re:Don't EAT iPod?

[njfuzzy]

Why, that's ridiculous.

Clearly, it should say "Do not chew iPod shuffle".

Re:Don't EAT iPod?

[Anonymous Coward]

At the bottom of the Mac mini page, you'll find: "Keyboard, mouse, megaphone and display sold separately."

http://www.apple.com/macmini/

Made me wonder whether the Apple site was defaced and all this is just an elaborate hoax

Maarten

Re:Don't EAT iPod?

[CvD]

Hehe, yeah and under the Mac Mini it says:

"Keyboard, mouse, megaphone and display sold separately"

Probably in reference to the little megaphone icon at the bottom right.

Re:Don't EAT iPod?

[Anonymous Coward]

At the bottom of the right margin, there's a picture of a megaphone beside the "tell a friend" link.

On the Design' page, there are pictures of one between a pair of hands, and a stack of seven beside a tower PC; the footnote reads "Keyboard, iPod mini, hands, AirPort, Bluetooth and PC sold separately."

I want to know where to buy the hands.

Re:Don't EAT iPod?

[andrew71]

and here:

"Keyboard, mouse, megaphone and display sold separately."

marketing

[zerocool^]

iAmSick of apple's iMarketing iScheme.

what the!

[acomj]

Its true.. I guess when you place it next to gum it gets confusing. Crunchy and expensive...

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[Dufftron 9000]

I would sincerely doubt that Apple will license at any point in the foreseeable future since part of what makes that seamless integration that people like is the control over the hardware. Microsoft bashing aside, even they would have an easier time with bugs if they had control over the hardware or at least a narrower field. It is all about the tradeoffs. Many producers means lower prices but a harder time for the support people. Fewer producers would mean less variables to test but higher prices from the reduced competition. Generally anyway, your milage may vary.

Evil Steve Jobs

[krbvroc1]

I can just see Evil Steve Jobs at the marketing table. He raises his pinky to the corner of his mouth and says, "I'll think I'll call it mini Mac".

Bhwahahaha.

Re:Evil Steve Jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

... and I'm gonna sell 100 thousand of em! No... 100 billion!!

Re:Evil Steve Jobs

[rorya]

Quite unlikely, since the product is named "Mac mini"

http://www.macmerc.com/

[slapout]

http://www.macmerc.com blogged the thing live. I hope they don't made me posting it here.

01:59 PM - The speech is wrapping up. Please stay tuned to MacMerc for coverage. I'll be moblogging photos from the Apple booth in a few minutes. And if you haven't already, please PayPal us a buck or two (button left column). Thanks!

01:54 PM - Shipping starting today. Accessories rolling out in the next four weeks.

01:54 PM - 2 models: 512MB for $99 and 1GB for $149.99.

01:53 PM - Autofill: button in iTunes to make a playlist sized for the iPod shuffle. You can also manually fill it. You can also use the iPod Shuffle as a USB flash drive (choose how much for songs how much for data).

01:50 PM - iPod Shuffle: really tiny (smaller than most packs of gum), no screen, weighs under 1 ounce. Cap on the bottom, USB 2. 12 hour rechargeable battery. PC/Mac. Looks about the size of a flash key drive.

01:46 PM - There is one more thing: iPod marketshare is 65% over double last year. But Apple is going after the remaining flash player market.

01:45 PM - Motorola: iTunes client on Motorola phones. Showing Motorola e398. Phones shipping this spring.

01:43 PM - iPods on cars: BMW, Mercedes, Nissan, Volvo, Scion.

01:40 PM - We have the iPod and the iPod mini (something else coming???). Holiday 2004 quarter iPod sales: 4.5 million vs. 730K a year ago. Cross 10 million iPods sold, 8 million in 2004.

01:39 PM - Moving onto iPod...

01:37 PM - iTMS sold 230 million songs so far. On pace for 1.25 billion.

01:36 PM - Mac mini is in stores January 22nd.

01:34 PM - The Mac mini fits in the palm of your hand. Hook it into your own keyboard and mouse, or Apple's. Comes with Panther and iLife 05. Price point:$499 $599.

01:34 PM - The Mac mini looks like a 3" tall CD drive. A short cube. All the connections, DVI and VGA.

01:33 PM - Introducing the Mac mini -- ThinkSecret was right!

01:32 PM - "Why doesn't Apple provide a stripped down lower cost Mac?"

01:32 PM - iWork available January 22 for $79

01:27 PM - Phil is out to do a demo of Pages. Start with a blank page or a template. Import photos in pages through iPhoto library (iLife is integrated). Designed by the Keynote team. Word processing with a sense of style.

01:21 PM - iWork announced, to replace AppleWorks. Built from the ground up for OS X. Includes major update to Keynote: 10 new themes, animated text, powerful animated builds, presenter display, interactive slideshows, self playing kiosk slideshows.
PagesOther part of iWork, advanced word processor. 40 Apple designed templates.

01:21 PM - iLife 2005 will be priced at $79. Goes on sale a week from this Friday. Free on all new Macs.

01:18 PM - Traffic update: about 100,000 pages an hour. Please donate if you have found this useful--the webhost enjoys being paid. (PayPal button sidebar left). Update: Thanks guys, keep em coming. We sprung for a dedicated server for our coverage.

01:15 PM - John Mayer is on stage showing the new GarageBand (he helped introduce the first version). Notes, "I didn't win any grammy's for playing the piano."

01:14 PM - GarageBand '05: Up to 8 track recording. Real time music notation (taken from Logic), pitch and timing fixing, recorded tracks now can act as loops, create loops, vocal transformer. Also a new Jampack (#4)

01:09 PM - iDVD '05: 15 new animated themes, OneStep DVD creation (video to DVD in one step), All DVD formats(+R/W).

01:05 PM - Spotted on stage, small metallic box with Apple logo...

01:04 PM - The president of Sony is on stage talking about HD. Steve is a fan of Sony's prosumer HD video camera (just $3499).

12:58 PM - iMovie 05: Faster, non destructive trimming, more transitions and effects, mpeg 4 video, Magic iMovie (auto movie). Biggest feature: HD.

12:45 PM - iPhoto '05: Better searching, More formats, far more powerful editing, more book designs, better organization (folders, c

IMac mini sold as 2nd computer

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's imac mini page is actually selling the thing as a second computer...

They talk about adding a KVM switch to your keyboard, mouse and display and popping the imac mini on top of your PC and whola! you have a imac to go with your pc.

These things are going to fly out of the stores...

(and, every kid in america is going to be wearing an ipod shuffle around his or her neck this summer.)

Good god what's up with apple? Could they possibly think they have a chance to gain PC marketshare?

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[RocketScientist]

Those little $20 (hopefully non-screwy exchange rate pricing available) USB-PS/2 dongles work really really well with Macs. I use one on my powerbook, I've used them with KVM's...I'll probably pick one up for my "emergency kit of random cables and adapters" I carry around.

I smell a lawsuit comin'...

[gwoodrow]

Mac's Mini Storage

Re:I smell a lawsuit comin'...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah. They will sell the domain to some Mac head for a fortune and change the name of their business.

Groovy

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Apple seems to be moving into some more low-end markets with smaller-cheaper devices. I think they may find some untapped markets with a combination of simple and cheap. It seems like the rumor community was right on this time. I'm actually the most interested, however, in Pages. The specs say it imports Appleworks, Word, text, and rich text formats. I'm very curious about how well it handles the Word format. It exports to PDF, Word, HTML, RTF, and plain text. It also seems to have it's own file format. I don't see any mention of XML or OpenOffice formats, nor for Word Perfect. Hopefully these are either undocumented features, or the architecture supports plug-ins to add support.

Can we mod CmdrTaco -1 Redundant?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The iPod Shuffle is pack-of-gum sized, no screen, weighs less than an ounce... and no screen."

Re:First shuffle!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, you create the playlists in iTunes. The switch on the back lets you switch it to shuffle the playlist, or you can have it play your iTunes playlist in order.

or, from the Mac Mini design page

[Cappy Red]

Keyboard, iPod mini, dock, hands, AirPort, Bluetooth and PC sold separately.

http://www.apple.com/macmini/design.html

Slashdot...

[sometwo]

Linking to a popular Mac site right after a Macworld keynote is like kicking a man when he's already down on the ground.

Mac mini for development

[Lysol]

I would seriously consider this w/a gig of ram. I currently devlop on a 17"PB 1.5GHZ, 1.5GB ram. This is running Postgres, Dbvisualizer, Tomcat, Emacs ;), Camino, various iTerm windows (each w/tabs), Konfabulator, iTunes, multiple desktops - and the list goes on.

Point is, I have a fair amount of stuff going on and my machine is solid and holds up well throughout the day. With only the top model sporting a cpu that is 100mhz slower than mine, but allowing the same DDR speed, I would seriously consider this for a development shop. Provided it's a web shop anyway.

Plus, who knows what this is gonna do in the home now that it's affordable.

Re:Mac mini for development

[berndtj]

Note they are already selling a composite/Svideo adapter. This would make a great music/dvd/internet set-top box!!!

Re:Mac mini for development

[mrchaotica]

Now just imagine a G5 version with an HDTV tuner...

Re:Mac mini for development

[tekitsune]

Or if you have a newer, higher end TV (be it plasma, LCD or some of the newer rear-projection) you can just plug the Mac mini into the TV with a DVI cable. Eeeeeexcellent picture.

Not _all_ expected plugs...

[javaxman]

well, at least not all of those expected by everyone. Some folks ( who clearly didn't know ) were predicting something you could plug into a TV. This isn't that, it's a standard computer with typical modern computer ports and DVI/VGA video, just 'mini'. Really, really, mini... it makes that George Foreman Grill computer look freekin' huge.

Re:Not _all_ expected plugs...

[Anonymous Coward]

well, you can plug it into a TV with the optional SVideo/composite out adaptor, just like an iBook.

Re:Not _all_ expected plugs...

[Mr.Zuka]

on the contrary
Apple is showing the adapter to hook it up to a TV on the main site for the mac mini http://www.apple.com/macmini/accessories.html

Re:Not _all_ expected plugs...

[g0at]

Um, you want to plug a Mac into a 320x200 NTSC display? So that it looks like utter shit and is so low res that you can't do anything useful?

Apple will *never* design a desktop Mac for that type of use. Though some other kind of media device, *maybe*.

-b

Re:Not _all_ expected plugs...

[NardofDoom]

A lot of the new plasma or LCD TVs that sold like hotcakes for Xmas have DVI in ports. You could definitely plug this into a TV.

Heck, Apple event makes DVI-to-S-video adapters. If your TV has S-Video in, you can use this.

Re:Not _all_ expected plugs...

[geekoid]

maybe he wants to play movies?

Re:Not _all_ expected plugs...

[Abalamahalamatandra]

Bottom right of this page has info on a Super/Composite adapter, and of course it already has DVI if your TV accepts it.

Re:Not _all_ expected plugs...

[evangellydonut]

somebody didn't go visit the Apple site, which says...

"Let Mac mini Entertain You
DVI to S/Video/Composite Adapter

Show off your latest pictures, movies and music on your kitchen TV with the S-Video/composite video adapter."

Re:Not _all_ expected plugs...

[javaxman]

Um, you want to plug a Mac into a 320x200 NTSC display?

No, I do not want to do such a thing. It'd just been mentioned as a feature on some of the rumor sites, and I was just pointing out ( in response to the editor's comments ) that the ports on the back of the mini don't include RGB connectors.

Of course, as several folks have er, kindly pointed out, Apple is selling a converter so you *could* connect it to an NTSC display if you wanted... and of course, DVI is DVI which some HD TV displays do support. To which I say, it's an *accessory* people, not part of the mini itself! Jeez! Like a VGA to video cable is something *new* for cryin' out loud!

Re:Not _all_ expected plugs...

[NaugaHunter]

Of course, as several folks have er, kindly pointed out, Apple is selling a converter so you *could* connect it to an NTSC display if you wanted... and of course, DVI is DVI which some HD TV displays do support. To which I say, it's an *accessory* people, not part of the mini itself! Jeez! Like a VGA to video cable is something *new* for cryin' out loud!

They could also point out your arguing semantics, since to connect anything you'll need cables. Whether it's a straight DVI cable or it converts to VGA, S-Video, or standard video is really irrelevant to the fact there is a port which allows you to connect to a TV, as opposed to having to tear the cover off and solder wires to the video card, for example.

The argument could be made it would be easier for the people that want it if it were standard, but that's true of many things. It also only has an 1/8 Audio out, so you'll probably need to split it to stereo if you want it piped through your amp. But no one seems to mention that.

Re:Not _all_ expected plugs...

[Kiryat Malachi]

Personally, I want to plug it into my 1280x720 HDTV.

Oh, wait, you forgot there were TVs that display at a decent resolution, didn't you?

This just in....

[TechDogg]

apple.com was just Slashdoted!

Anyone still want to do WindozE?

[Cycline3]

Anyone still want to do WindozE? These things rock!

Boom crash boom.

[NilObject]

Is it just me, or is Apple's site pretty much down? I was only able to follow one link to the iWork page, but I can't see anything else, I just get timeouts and all that jazz.

I was also hoping for slightly updated PowerBooks, because I need to buy one soon. Hopefully they just weren't announced by Steve because I've got $1,500 of pure education discount lovin' burning in my pocket (my wallet, perverts).

Small Form Factor PCs?

[Mad_Rain]

I was thinking about getting a little Small-form factor box to run something like MythTv, something along the lines of a AMD64. But checking out the Mac mini just makes me wonder about how I could get that going. Anyone think that this box could be a useful solution to that kind of project? I think the fairly standardized hardware would make that pretty simple to do, but being a non-mac person, I have no idea.

And damn - just in time to consider when upgrading my parents old machines. ;)

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[mozumder]

The CPU speed on the Mac mini might not be fast enough, although my DVR playbacks are usually in HD, which overtaxes my PowerBook (1.3GHz), but not my dual PowerMac (2x2.5GHz).

The other thing is that the Mac mini doesn't have a gigabit ethernet, which makes things a little more difficult for HD networked boxes...

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[spud603]

I bet it wouldn't be too much trouble. you can install a number of linux flavors on apple, if you want to go that route. also, i bet it won't be long before somebody comes out with a cheap tivo designed to run on this thing with a remote and all...

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[mbourgon]

Two options:
1) Something like the El Gato EyeTV. This is your PVR functionality.

2) Someone write a Cocoa frontend for MythTV. I don't think it'd be easy to port over a full fledged version, but a frontend is probably doable.
(I Am Not A Software Programmer)

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[rizzy]

The hardware sounds simlar to an ibook. I'm not sure if anybody ported mythtv to os x yet, but linux runs great on ppc.

You might want to wait a few months for any hardware support quirks to make their way into the linux kernel, but putting linux on this puppy and making it a mythtv box is a very exciting idea. If you add a bluetooth keyboard and mouse, you've got one nice setup.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Johnathon_Dough]

Not free, but elgato software makes the eyeTV for macs

EyeTV is a feature-rich digital TV recorder with realtime MPEG-2 video encoding that allows you to watch, record and edit your favorite TV shows and movies directly on your Mac. Automatically schedule when to record shows, edit out the unwanted content, and then burn your recording to DVD. You can even pause and replay live TV, letting you watch what you want, when you want it. The combination of EyeTV and an Electronic Program Guide means you'll never miss a show.

I have not actually tried it myself, but apparently it has/will soon have HD support as well.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Help port the mythfrontend portion of mythtv to be a native OS X application (it uses OpenGL and QT)

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Mad_Rain]

Okay, next question - how easy/difficult would it be to cluster these things a la Virginia Tech's supercomputer? Considering they had a very inexpensive setup relative to the power of their machine, I imagine that the Mac Mini could take off in this department as well. ;)

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Wesley Felter]

Clustering Mac minis would be easy but stupid. I suspect the Xserve has better price/performance.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Another thing to note. A DIN slot (car radio standard size) is 2"x7", the mini mac is 2"x6.5".

If it had a radio faceplate and a laptop drive, this would be the best car stereo ever.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[WaKall]

MythFrontend is already a first-class Mac application. You could set your minimac to autologin a user, start MythFrontend at login automatically for that user, and now you just need some form of remote control.

You'll still need a MythBackend around, with the TV capture card in it and running Linux. AFAIK, Myth recording is still Linux-only.

Myth Frontend for OSX is really slick. I run it on my G5 and it just usurps the position of wallpaper while I have AIM windows on top of it.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Anonymous Coward]

The mini has a measly 167Mhz front bus... Too slow for doing numerical computations at least (ie: taking advantage of Altivec). Therefore the main advantage of having a PowerPC processor (Altivec) is lost compared to Intel's and AMD's...

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Garfunkel]

why not just get a $150 Xbox. That's what I'm going to do, it runs mythfrontend just fine.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[radixvir]

You could use it for a frontend. But since it doesnt have video out it wouldnt be much good. I would recommend an old pc or an xbox if you are looking for just a frontend. a brand new mac (even the cheapest one available) doesnt seem like a good investment to me.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Mad_Rain]

Well, at the per-unit price of $500 for the Mac Mini, and $3000 for the Xserve Dual Processor box, that's 6 G4 Processors paired against 2 G5 processors. I have no idea how that comes out, really, but it's an interesting experiment at least.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Anonymous Coward]

It does have a Firewire port, and OS X supports IP over Firewire. That would give you a 400 mb network connection, albeit a point-to-point one.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently it does have some sort of video out. You can hook it up to a TV via an optional TV adaptor.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[pascalb3]

$20 DVI -> S-video/composite adapter.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Matey-O]

I doubt that's an issue. My Xbox can rescale video on the fly and play surround sound. That's, effectively, a 700 Mhz Celeron with a 100 mb/s network wire.

You need to see what else is running on your powerbook as my 1ghz G4 iBook has no issues doing this.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Anonymous Coward]

$3000 is for a full Xserve. But they also sell a Cluster Node version that's significantly cheaper.

Basically, one wouldn't ever do what you're proposing, but with XGrid being built-into Tiger, a house full of Macs could easily share the load of some tasks, just as XCode's distributed compilation works today. Expect to see this in Final Cut long before you'd see it in iMovie,etc. though. Few other tasks take that much computation.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[sootman]

I'm buying a minimac for just this reason. comes with (optionally?) a dongle with S-video & composite video out. I know from experience that OS X will play my ripped DVDs just fine with MPlayer. sold.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[bnenning]

Well, at the per-unit price of $500 for the Mac Mini, and $3000 for the Xserve Dual Processor box, that's 6 G4 Processors paired against 2 G5 processors.

Total GHz would be 7.5 for the minis and 4.6 for the Xserves. The G4 is about as efficient as the G5 per cycle but has terrible bandwidth, so assuming the algorithm is hugely parallel, the minis would win if it's CPU-bound and lose if it's memory-bound.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[nathanh]

I was thinking about getting a little Small-form factor box to run something like MythTv, something along the lines of a AMD64. But checking out the Mac mini just makes me wonder about how I could get that going.

Immediately obvious problems; no IR remote, no IR power-on, no TV out, no DVB in, no PCI slot to add DVB, no Linux (MythTV on Mac is almost but not quite usable).

Some (not all) of those problems can be fixed with USB attachments but I'm thinking, the Mac Mini is not a good MythTV box (yet).

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[minus_273]

or you can just build myth-tv with qt-mac and not bother..

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Wesley Felter]

The G5 has twice as many FPUs, so the Xserve gets 18.4 peak GFLOPS while six minis get 15 peak GFLOPS. The Xserve has more network bandwidth and about equal memory bandwidth.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[mstra]

since it doesnt have video out it wouldnt be much good

You just need the Apple DVI to Video Adapter.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a Replay TV user, a recent defector from the TiVo camp. The replay TV virtual DVR software is called DVArchive, and it is Java based. it turns any Linux, Doze or Mac into a Replay TV storage and playback station.

I have been looking at building SFF PC for MythTV as well. I have also been waiting to see if this Mac Mini rumor would be true.

I plan on using one of these with a component video input as a second tuner PVR. Then, to be a DVArchive server to be one stop shopping for networked PVR, e-mail, living room Web and oter generic kruft, all under OS X.

My 550MHz G4 PowerBook is a little long in the tooth for these hevy lifting tasks of video. But, i just can't give up the last of the Ti skinned 'books. Like Mad Max, last of the V8 Interceptors.

The Mini is the new Cube. I missed getting a Cube (except the NeXT cube, which i still have). the silent Mac Mini will sit on my AV rack and be the missing link that I have waited for.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Given its similarity to a laptop system, I wonder if the mini has any power saving features.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Aqua_Geek]

I wonder if a laptop hard drive isn't already in there. It's awfully small to be shoving a full-size hard drive in. I guess we'll have to wait for someone to crack one of these babies open to know for sure...

But back on topic... All you would have to do is install a small, fold-out LCD (touch screen?) and you would not only have the ultimate car stereo but also the ultimate carputer. It could play DVDs, surf the internet, play music (you could download software to support any format), etc.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Xyde]

"S-video and composite video output to connect directly to a TV or projector (requires Apple DVI to Video Adapter, sold separately)"

http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[LazyBoy]

MythFrontend is already a first-class Mac application.

Good to know. I'm building my backend box now. But no way this has the horsepower to decode HD mpeg 2 streams. That's the reason I'm going Myth instead of sticking with my Tivo.

Someone needs to merge the Mac Myth frontend with the firewire output. No decoding necessary. (There is a Mac app somewhere that acts like a DVHS player and can drive TVs with firewire input. This can't be done with Linux yet.)

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[pinkocommie]

How do you handle Video Out? Dont see a video out port only a DVI or you can use DVI to power HDTV etc? (I have an old SVideo capable set)

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Some HDTVs have DVI in. For the rest of us, you buy the Apple DVI to Video Adapter.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Queer Boy]

But since it doesnt have video out it wouldnt be much good.

You have to get the DVI to video adapter.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a 2.5" laptop hard drive. Just to clear that up.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Jozer99]

So far, Macs have proved a pitiful platform for any Tivo-like program. There are just no tuners out there, and no software either. A Mini-ITX box with compariable specs would have a PCI slot for a tuner card WITH hardware MPEG2 Encoder. For $500, it would come with a 15" or 17" monitor.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[k_187]

Yup, and that's what I'm going to buy one for. I have a Blue & White G3, that I was planning on upgrading to handle the elgato stuff, but now, I'm just going to get one of these, put some more ram in it, and call it a day. All they need is a good media remote, and I'm set, and it's purdy! God I love apple.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[ps_inkling]

There are some inside pictures under Tech Spec. 2.5" drive, one DIMM slot.

I'm sure someone will make an LCD screen a la PSOne to attach to the top of the box. If nothing else, an adaptor to use an existing PSOne screen. The miniMac comes with the VGA adaptor, and there are SVideo adaptors as well.

The power connector is probably a wall wart (no pics), so an in-car power supply hookup is probably doable.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Anonymous Coward]

DAMN!!!! That is the best idea I've heard in a LONG time. The possibilities are endless...
You could play music in the front while kids watch a DVD in the back, navigation, connect some sort of cell based internet connection for (slow) browsing on the go... Geez, that's just a start!

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[elli2358]

That would be interesting to see. It's been done with the m-itx boards already http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/cluster/ (mini-itx.com), so anybody with the ambition to get 30 of these guys should do so now so we can /. them too.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[X]

But no way this has the horsepower to decode HD mpeg 2 streams.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Altivec really accelerates things like MPEG 2 decoding, and I suspect the Radeon helps out with this a great deal as well.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[marksven]

The Mac Mini is probably not powerful enough to playback the HDTV that the EyeTV 500 records. See the review from EFF:

http://www.eff.org/broadcastflag/eyetv500.php

I think there is a real need in the market for a good HDTV DVR device. My ultimate wish is for one that can record HDTV from cable TV, complete with a cable card slot. So far, the only solutions available seem to involve putting antennas on the rooftop.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Che Guevarra]

You, sir, are a visionary. Yes I am serious. Great post.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[rhuntley12]

Xbox is my favorite thing to use for this and cheaper. Although a lot of people don't like how it looks, I modified my case and like it quite a bit. Only thing it doesnt do is capture TV, but I don't do that anyway. Another thing I've seen is hiding the xbox with the remote showing through a hole.

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[Jimithing DMB]

Immediately obvious problems; no IR remote, no IR power-on, no TV out, no DVB in, no PCI slot to add DVB, no Linux (MythTV on Mac is almost but not quite usable).

Actually, there is an IR remote available for it (look on the accessories page). Power on is not an issue as you'd just leave the machine on all the time as there is no reason to turn it off. It does in fact have a TV out (either DVI to an HDTV or with an adapter to an S-Video or Composite set). Also I should note that Macs can run Linux; Debian has a PPC port, YellowDog makes a Fedora-based version and Fedora is now working on their own PPC version.

Some (not all) of those problems can be fixed with USB attachments but I'm thinking, the Mac Mini is not a good MythTV box (yet).

Actually, the lack of video in or PCI isn't that big of an issue. Also don't forget it does have FireWire. Know what else has FireWire? Every HD cable box, by law.

I've actually recorded some streams (both standard definition and high definition) from Cox's provided Motorola box onto my PowerBook using Apple's Virtual DVHS (it's a developer sample). Unfortunately, even with a 1.5 GHz G4 I can barely manage to play them back using QuickTime. Here's hoping QuickTime 7 that comes with Tiger actually uses the MPEG-2 decode hardware on the graphics card. I suppose I could find this out for myself but if I did I wouldn't be able to tell you.

Encoding is obviously not an issue as the streams are already in MPEG-2 as they come out of the FireWire port on the cable box.

If this Mac mini somehow can be made to decode 1080i streams you had better believe I'll be getting one. With some minor Cocoa programming I could easily take Apple's Virtual DVHS and write a nice front-end for it.

Now all I need to do is do all of this then profit. ;-)

Re:Small Form Factor PCs?

[nathanh]

Also I should note that Macs can run Linux; Debian has a PPC port, YellowDog makes a Fedora-based version and Fedora is now working on their own PPC version.

I'm well aware of LinuxPPC. I'm running Debian on a PowerBook and have done so for over a year. Previously I ran LinuxPPC on an iBook and a 7220. Linux rarely works on newly released Mac hardware. It always takes a while before somebody (usually Ben H.) gets hold of the new hardware and writes a bunch of drivers. I'll bet dollars to donuts that LinuxPPC won't work right away on the MacMini.

Actually, there is an IR remote available for it (look on the accessories page).

Which is one of those USB attachments I said could be used to correct some of the problems.

It does in fact have a TV out (either DVI to an HDTV or with an adapter to an S-Video or Composite set).

Yes, that is good. Thanks for the correction.

Actually, the lack of video in or PCI isn't that big of an issue.

It is a huge issue.

Power on is not an issue

It is an issue.

Know what else has FireWire? Every HD cable box, by law.

No cable in my region. Only DVB-T.

Shuffle Drive

[dourk]

A 512m USB drive is around $50. Get one that plays your tunes for another $50?

I'll take 2.

The target market for the iPod Shuffle

[bubba451]

For those who are freaking out about not having a screen ("how do I choose which album to play?"), realize that you're not the target market for the iPod Shuffle.

The target market for the iPod Shuffle is people who buy/download the songs they like and really don't care the order in which they're played. It's basically like having your radio station that plays all your favorite songs all day. Teenagers will eat these up, and at $99-$149, many can afford them.

Would I want one? Probably not, but then I already have an iPod. They've already got me.

Re:The target market for the iPod Shuffle

[Guy Harris]

Teenagers will eat these up

The fact that they are specifically warned not to do so nonwithstanding?

Re:The target market for the iPod Shuffle

[pressman]

Strangely, I might be part of the market they're going after. I've not purchased an iPod mostly because of the price and the fact that I spend most of my time in front of a computer with my entire CD collection ripped to iTunes. I take the bus to my office and my trip is a whopping 25 minutes to downtown Seattle and then a 15 minute walk. I don't need to pay $400 to carry around my entire 20GB library for that. A $99 player that could carry a reasonable amount of music to cover my various bus trips to and from work? Yes please!

Mac Mini is...

[Anonymous Coward]

... the new Cube! I mean, look at this thing! THE CUBE WILL NOT DIE!!!

And can I use the iPod Shuffle as a regular USB Thumb drive? If so, I might as well buy this thing instead of the 1Gig USB drive I was going to buy this week. Assuming there are no downsides to it, like needing a full battery or whatever to act as a regular USB drive.

Re:Mac Mini is...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a cube. It's a white PS1 with no games.

Re:Mac Mini is...

[jericho4.0]

"...can I use the iPod Shuffle as a regular USB Thumb drive?"

Yes.

Macs are USB *only*

[abb3w]

They do sell USB/PS2 adapters though...

Mostly not compatible with Macs in my experience. (I've tried a couple times just for the giggle value.)

Re:Macs are USB *only*

[Anonymous Coward]

I work at a computer store and all of our el-cheapo keyboards work with iBook, all of our USB mice are Logitech though, and they work just fine. Not sure about non-Logitech mice.

Re:Macs are USB *only*

[RocketScientist]

I've used the belkin and others. Never had one NOT work. 100%. Every time.

Re:Macs are USB *only*

[syd2000]

The ones that don't consistently work with the mac will, with a workaround. When USB/PS2 adapters are used with a KVM switch and you are toggling back to the mac, usually all you need to do is replug the usb cable (that goes into the mac).

Re:Macs are USB *only*

[Anonymous Coward]

Mostly not compatible with Macs in my experience. (I've tried a couple times just for the giggle value.)

Apple sells a compatible version for only $500...

Re:Macs are USB *only*

[b1t r0t]

I've never had a problem either. Except when I tried to use a Model M keyboard. The Windows keys get mapped to the Command key, and there's no Windows key on a Model M.

Re:Macs are USB *only*

[sirsampson]

Ahh, but that's where ucontrol comes in

http://gnufoo.org/ucontrol/ucontrol.html

can map out that pesky caps lock key and have your apple key.

The modem M keyboard is a tank, and it's too bad there isn't a version of it currently.

My question

[liquidsin]

Does that $499 include an OS?

Re:My question

[nek]

Yes. 10.3 (Panther), and iLife '05 and Pages and a bunch of other stuff.

I can see some ipod shuffle problems though..

[Moustache N Tits]

ok, don't get me wrong. I love the look of the iPod Shuffle and I'm hitting the "refresh" button on the apple store until I can order one, but I do see a problem and I hope Apple has thought of this too... the iPod shuffle comes with a lanyard you can hang around your neck. Seems appropraite and I bet in 2 months everybody is wearing one of these... but the lanyard hooks to the cap that is meant to be removed. In a year, how likely is it that your ipod shuffle will just fall out of that cap after it's been pulled on and off so much!? Sure, the headphones will most likely be on, but this just seems like a really bad idea and I hope they addressed it...

Re:I can see some ipod shuffle problems though..

[mrchaotica]

it's too bad that the lanyard doesn't pass through the cap and attach to the player so that you don't lose either of them.

I guess they just want you to buy a sport case or an armband too...

Re:I can see some ipod shuffle problems though..

[steevo.com]

I guess they just want you to buy a sport case or an armband too...

They do.

When I ordered a 512 MB iPod Shuffle this morning, the sales rep was really pushing the accessories (armband, sports case, charger and dock) as well as extended service. She advised me that it is $100 to replace the battery, so the service plan was a "good deal". I told her I would just live dangerously, and passed on her "good deal".

I just got the player

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a good price, but I won't rush out and buy one yet. I'll wait for the second generation to come out and buy the 1st gen at discount... Apple's still got some ways to go to build up a line of medium to discount boxes for the masses, but it's getting on the right track.

The idea is obviously to try and penetrate into the mid range market; make the Mac an everymans computer.

It's funny that Apple started out with the goal of putting a computer in the common man's home, then made a sharp turn to Macs designed for high-end users only, and now is slowly returning to their original ideals.

Warning:

[nmec]

Gotta love those disclaimers:

Warning do not eat iPod shuffle

http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/

iWork has word processing, but lacks the rest

[Anonymous Coward]

So Apple might have given us a replacement for Word, but now we need a copy of Excel.

Usually "upgrades" shouldn't remove important sections of the program it's replacing. In this case, there's no database, spreadsheet, drawing, or painting modules.

Looks like AppleWorks gets to stay in my Dock.

It's there

[jeff.paulsen]

Bluetooth is available as a factory-installed option for the Mac Mini.

On Apple's specs page there is a section "Build-to-Order Options", and under there, under Wireless, you will see "Internal Bluetooth module".

MOD PARENT UP

[TheRaven64]

Idiot moderators don't know irony when they see it. The parent poster is paraphrasing CmdrTaco's comment on the launch of the iPod:

No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

Re:MOD PARENT UP

[timster]

I thought it was funny, and was just worried that somebody else would make the same joke before I did. And now everybody is telling me how great Macs are, when I'm just lucky that the Apple Store is overloaded or I might have tried to buy this before realizing that I don't have $500 until Friday.

I'm a little skeptical on how it looks in photos but I don't really care, and I hope I can convince my other family members to get a couple, as I think their needs would be much better served by this mini Mac than by Dells and the like.

Maybe later I'll think of an actual troll that will get moderated up anyway and post that, so that things will balance out.

Re:MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus man. Look up the definition for "paraphrase: before you go spouting it out again.

Website Stats

[Pirogoeth]

Remember that story about the BBC site showing off its usage stats? I'd love to see what Apple's servers are going through right about now...

Yes, Yes, but...

[ThousandStars]

Will MS Word be Pages compatible?

Shuffle

[Seanasy]

No screen, less space than a mini. Lame.

:P

This is going to be HUGE!

[Forezt]

Apple.com has slowed-way-down. I've never seen that happen, ever. I can already tell that this is going to be gigantic, as in big, as in gigasmic!

Apple: "Do not eat iPod shuffle"

[Master Of Ninja]

Go down to the bottom of the iPod shuffle page here

Have a look at (2): "Do not eat iPod shuffle". Hilarious

Re:Playlists on the iPod Shuffle

[Anonymous Coward]

"Autofill" is a new feature in iTunes that will automatically build a playlist that will fit on your iPod shuffle.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[KevCo]

There are PS/2 to USB adapters. I use a similiar one to the link below with my iBook. http://www.cablestogo.com/product.asp?cat_id=1501& sku=27225

Life is Random

[sometwo]

Did anyone else at first think that they were referring to the Random in random access memory with their tagline? I wondered if non-nerds would understand that and then I realized that the tagline refers to how the songs are always shuffled.

So what's up...

[WormholeFiend]

...with Steve's new look? I mean his beard... cmon.

Re:So what's up...

[WormholeFiend]

ah nevermind, he shaved it just before the show.

./ed

[xortw]

No jet, but is is slow already. Keep up the good work!

Anyone see the Headhunter References?

[Rude Turnip]

If you go here:

http://www.apple.com/macmini/graphics.html, some of the paragraph headings are actually the lyrics to "Headhunter," a techno song by Front 242. With all this good news, I don't actually mind that it started snowing outside!

Did he ever start paying child support?

[glrotate]

I'd say being a deadbeat dad is sufficient to make him Evil Steve Jobs.

Re:Did he ever start paying child support?

[The One and Only]

Sure, Steve was an asshole earlier in life. But he's now accepted Lisa into his family and, as I recall, he also paid for her college education.

Yeah, I know, IHBT, etc.

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[i_should_be_working]

Yeah, that thing is pretty sweet. And it's about time. Maybe they saw all the slashdot posts bitching about all the low end macs being all in ones. I'm about 5 times more likely to buy this than their imacs.

But that ishuffle thing? blechhh. I'm sure it will do well 'cause of the fanatics, but I think it's just silly. Around 15 albums worth of music and no navigation? Anyone who wants a gumstick sized mp3 player should see the iaudio U2

Safe to say that the claims of M$FT's monopolies

[oldwarrior]

over the OS and Office application markets may be officially blown out the backsides of the EU courts and State's PA's here.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[Nasarius]

The Mac Mini looks like it's the thing for me. I've never owned a Mac in my life - I've used a few in my time

Same here. I'm very very tempted to go out and buy one right now. Sounds like a perfect portable desktop or server. It's actually cheaper than a similar mini-ITX box. I never really cared about the iPod or the big displays or the software...this is...*jaw drop*.

iDRM

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, I guess it'd take a company like Apple to make DRM palitable.

If Real or Microsoft had tried it, the public would have howled.

pictures and specs

[minus_273]

ipod shuffle looks kind of like a normal ipod.
The mac mini is very sleek and tiny. Click on link for a comaprison.

best warning ever

[musikit]

"2. Do not eat iPod shuffle."

Re:best warning ever

[Anonymous Coward]

I glad you warned me. I thought it read the IPod truffle.

mmmm...Truffles.

Re:best warning ever

[Yer Mom]

Interestingly[1], the UK site has "2. Do not chew iPod shuffle" instead.

[1] Not really, but there you go.

Finally a brilliant idea from Apple

[Anita Coney]

The screenless Shuffle iPod is a GREAT idea. I've never actually used a screen on either of my MP3 players to find a particular song. I just have them set to shuffle and hit play. I let "god" choose what I'll hear next.

I do the same thing at home. Even though I have all my CDs organized by subfolders, I only listen to a 6-day long playlist I created of all my favorite songs. I rarely have to look at my screen at home to listen to music; I just click a button on my Remote Wonder and let it play.

And I do the same thing in my car. I have the same 6-days of music spread over 12 CD-Rs. I've never searched for a particular song while driving (or while parked). I just let shuffle do the work.

no obsolete legacy ports

[Anonymous Coward]

No, of course it doesn't have PS/2 ports!

Nice cheap pre-installed BSD Server

[ehack]

If you can't be bothered with an installation, and want auto-security update, then you could do worse than buy one of these as a web or file server.

Even more so for those who need a web server and have no command-line experience. BSD stability, at a Windows price point :)

Fun fact about the Mac Mini

[jfruhlinger]

Not only is it headless, but it's handless ... as near as I can tell from the marketing copy on Apple's site, it doesn't come with a keyboard or mouse.

This isn't that big a deal -- you can get a USB keyboard/mouse combo for less than $50 -- but I think it just goes to show that this is aimed squarely at the whiners on Slashdot who always say, "just give me a sub-$500 Mac, man!" and whose dingy apartments are littered with dozens of abandonned Cheeto-encrusted keyboards.

jf

Re:Fun fact about the Mac Mini

[the_rev_matt]

Some of use prefer Doritos, thank you very much.

Re:Fun fact about the Mac Mini

[bennomatic]

I eat Lorna Doon, you insensitive clods!

Damn you Apple

[moorcito]

Just when I buy a solid-state mp3 player, apple announces a they are coming out with one. Why couldn't you have announced this one week earlier, why? After years and years of waiting, I finally buy one and murphy's law strikes.

For those that are interested, I bought a Creative MuVo N200 512MB for $120 at newegg.

Re:Damn you Apple

[Moofie]

Guess what. Your MuVo still works.

You bought a piece of computer hardware, and somebody released one that's betterfastercheaper the next week. Get used to it.

Stupid Apple! Didn't release a flash MP3 player!
Stupid Apple! Released a flash MP3 player after I bought something else!

They simply can't win, can they?

Mac Mini PSU?

[X_Bones]

Is this gonna be like the Cube, where I have an ugly wart containing the PSU hanging off a cable going down the back of my desk? Or did Apple figure out some way to build one so small I can just go from the wall to the machine with? Didn't see any details on Apple's Web site or in the Macworld link.

Re:Mac Mini PSU?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I had to guess (and apparently I do), it's probably the same as the powerbook supplies -- about 2.5"x2.5"x1".

Re:Mac Mini PSU?

[jones948]

Based on the image of the internals here, I don't see how there's an internal power supply.

Re:Mac Mini PSU?

[taylor]

Based on the QTVR image of the mini, it seems the power unit is a rectangle about a third the size of the computer, but it appears to be on a much longer cord than the cube's was. It seems likely that the unit can live right next to the powerstrip.

Only vaguely relatedly, this mini has all the beauty of the cube but (finally) the right price point. Any word on how noisy it's supposed to be?

Re:Mac Mini PSU?

[nuggetman]

Based on the image of the internals here, I don't see how there's an internal power supply.

Because there isn't one. It's an external brick, which you can see in the QTVR of the unit

Cheap Macs == Everyone Machines

[ThousandStars]

Parent machines, child machines, school machines, people-without-BMWs-and-gazillion-dollar-house-mac hines: I think this small, capable box is going to get a ton of people to consider and actually buy Macs who wouldn't otherwise.

All the pieces of the puzzle are dropping into place: iTunes + iPod to introduce Apple and remind people they exist; stores to sell Apple products; a relatively fast, stable, secure and easy operating system; good peripheral support. Finally, the last piece: a low-cost desktop machine to really compete with the major PC vendors. Bravo!

Forget the year of Linux on the desktop -- this may be the year of Apple on the desktop.

Re:Cheap Macs == Everyone Machines

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget the year of Linux on the desktop -- this may be the year of Apple on the desktop.

Yeah because replacing your highly centralized closed source Windows operating system with another highly centralized closed source operating system is a BRILLIANT move!

Apple and the power button?

[mzwaterski]

Is there any rhyme or reason as to why Apple's have always had the power button exclusively on the back of the machine? Everytime the thing crashes you have to search around on the back for the button.

Re:Apple and the power button?

[Anonymous Coward]

Everytime the thing crashes

Yeah, the two times a year. If that.

Re:Apple and the power button?

[gobbo]

There are 8 Macs in my work/home space right now, ranging from 1996 to 2004. They all have a highly functional power button on the front. Your point?

Or maybe you're thinking about the FatMac 512K that's sitting in my closet, ca. 1985. That one does have a power button on the back. OK, I guess there were some Motorola 60x based machines with power buttons on the back. Most of those also had power buttons on the keyboard.

Re:Apple and the power button?

[Anonymous Coward]

your macs crash? mine sure dont...

Re:Apple and the power button?

[guet]

Well,

1. It won't crash very often (twice a year perhaps, unless you have some recurring problem)
   
2. You're not supposed to turn it off - that's what sleep is for; either you send it to sleep, or it goes to sleep automatically when not in use. Then it wakes up after a few seconds when you press space.
   

So they're really trying to discourage people from turning their machine off every day and then waiting for it to reboot when they want to use it.

Re:Apple and the power button?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a few inches deep. How much reaching does one have to do?

Re:Apple and the power button?

[flamdrag]

Placing something in plain site only encourages people to use it.

Re:Apple and the power button?

[mzwaterski]

I don't own one. Most of my experience with Macs is from trying to help friends and family with their's when they don't work. Could be why I'm not all that fond of macs.

Re:Apple and the power button?

[mzwaterski]

Ahhhhh, thank you for a real answer. Makes sense. My only experience with Macs is trying to fix ones that aren't working. Usually they fall into the recurring problem category, so its been a pain to deal with the power button, but what you say makes sense. Again, thanks!

Re:Apple and the power button?

[nuckin futs]

funny thing is, when you press it, it just doesn't shut off. it gives you a prompt and a couple selections (restart, sleep, cancel, and shutdown)

Re:Apple and the power button?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that's probably the problem. Since no Mac has had a power button on the back for like a decade or so, you must be fooling with ancient Macs. I bet a lot of people are frustrated dealing with friend's computers that are running Windows 3.1 on a 100Mhz 486 too.
In a way this is a testament to the quality of a Mac. Even a decade old computer is still functiional and useful.

Just plug it in!

[shawnce]

Now this is just cool...

http://images.apple.com/ipodshuffle/images/indexib ook20050111.jpg

Re:Just plug it in!

[Anonymous Coward]

No. It's erotic.

Re:Just plug it in!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, especially when it gets broken off. Then it'll be REALLY cool, without a USB connector and all.

Who the hell thought it'd be cool to have something like that HANGING OFF THE SYSTEM? They should just use a standard USB cable (it can be short), so it can sit on the desk next to the system, worst case scenario, you pull the USB cable out during a transfer.

Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[danigiri]

(1) add a RAM stick BTO - cheapo
(2) add bluetooth BTO - cheapo
(3) add Wifi card BTO - cheapo
(4) sit unobtrusively to my way-cool existing TV and hook up A/V - nothin'
(5) hook to already existing wifi ADSL-powered network - nothin'
(6) bring in my already existing Sony-Ericsson Z600 - nothin'
(7) ...?
(8) Profit!

Lemme see what I get from this:

(A) iTunes playback
(B) VLC playback
(C) DVD playback
(D) UNIX development
(E) Surf web
(F) Check mail
(7) Photo slideshow
(8) Remote control via Z600 (see 2,6,A,B,C,E)
All in the living room sitting comfortably on the sofa (see D)! Yay!

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[Danathar]

No 5.1 surround........

You'll have to pick up a USB surround sound device.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/SonicaTheate r-main-1.html

That will set you back another $120

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[danigiri]

I don't have a surround speakers system, you insensitive clod!

Well, seriously, I don't have 5.1 yet. But whenever I buy one in the future I can shell out $120 for the USB surround device and be a happy camper.

And sometime in the future pick up an ElGato firewire tuner to build a TiVO-like system and enjoy++.

Apple is avoiding what it has been critized in the past, starting small, I can pick and chose extensions on the way.

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[Anonymous Coward]

A real "Media Center" Machine has SPDIF audio output.

The Mac mini doesn't.

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[Danathar]

yea...you can buy the stuff. But it would of been nice of them to include it for the minimal cost it would of been.

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[wahsapa]

airport express homie

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[Anonymous Coward]

> (1) add a RAM stick BTO - cheapo

Not allowed. Read the specs on apple.com. They say that Apple Stores, resellers, and end-users are not allowed to add RAM. You have to either buy it new or ship it back to Apple, wait weeks, pay huge fees for shop time, and pay Apple's huge price for RAM to upgrade it.

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[Anonymous Coward]

Admit it. You don't even know what "BTO" stands for, do you?

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[Anonymous Coward]

Build to order, but what's your point?

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[Jagasian]

It is called an Xbox, and it costs 150 US dollars new. You can do a software mod for free, which lets you install a piece of free and open source software known as Xbox Media Center, which will let you play all of your music and movies... you can even stream them from network attached storage.

The Xbox is going to drop to $99 soon. So you could pay 5 times as much for Apple's hardware, or you could hack out a solution at $99.

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[Anonymous Coward]

The point is, you are a dumbass. The parent poster CLEARLY stated about getting ram FROM the online store.

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[Civil_Disobedient]

Wish I had mod points for you.

Oh, you forgot one thing:

Allows you to play thousands of games.

Apple never could figure that part out.

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the Xbox library currently holds around 800 titles. So not "thousands" there. As for OS X, 20 years of development will surely exceed that number. And quite a few good ones, it seems.

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[macshit]

Er, well you forgot the main reasons people like the Mac Mini: small size and the svelte, elegant design of the hardware, software, and GUI.

Microsoft never could figure those parts out.

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[Anonymous Coward]

(4) sit unobtrusively to my way-cool existing TV and hook up A/V - nothin'

I can't figure whether the Mac mini has a TV output. It doesn't say so anywhere! Besides, making a reasonably equipped mini would cost ~300 extra (mouse, ram, keyboard, wifi). You can get an AMD64 that beats the shit out of the mac mini for the same amount I think, but it wouldn't be that cool. Anyway, I'm considering the Mac mini as a cheap ticket to the mac experience (!?). P.

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[Civil_Disobedient]

Er, well you forgot the main reasons people like the Mac Mini: small size and the svelte, elegant design of the hardware, software, and GUI.

X-Boxes aren't small?

And I'll humbly offer up this interface to kick the pants out of any interface you can find for an OSX media machine. Remember, we're talking about media systems here. Readability and simplicity in user interface is key.

Microsoft never could figure those parts out.

As if this was a Microsoft vs. Apple issue. The guys that coded the link above have it running off of a Linux distro.

That's the crazy part about Apple fanatics: they fail to realize that people who don't agree with them aren't by default Microsoft fanatics. If I could have OSX running on my AMD system, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately this would kill Apple.

Re:Say hello to *real* "Media Center" Machine

[Anonymous Coward]

X-boxes aren't small.

They are bloody massive compared to the competition in their normal market.

Came for the Mac, stayed for the iPod

[slapout]

I was tuned in to hear about the new "Mac mini" because I was planning on buying one if it was true. But now I'm also interested in the new iPod. My old thumbdrive just died and I'd like to replace it with a new 1GB one. If I could get one with an mp3 player too (that also plays my iTune songs) that'd be great. (Although I saw and ad today for one from another company that also includes a voice recorder...but no itunes.)

I wonder if I could put Linux on it and boot from it. Think about it: a computer with Microsoft Windows on it, booted into Linux running on hardware made by Apple!

Re:Came for the Mac, stayed for the iPod

[byjove]

You're kidding about wanting an mp3 player too, right? All iPods are mp3 players.

Re:Came for the Mac, stayed for the iPod

[slapout]

I meant I want to replace my (non-mp3) thumbdrive. Since the iPods can also act as thumbdrives I'm considering it as a replace for my old thumbdrive.

"Do not eat iPod shuffle?"

[grungebox]

Anyone see this on the iPod Shuffle page at Apple? Read footnote 2:
Do not eat iPod shuffle.
It's a reference to this image at the Apple site that shows the relative size of the Shuffle. This is almost as good as the whole "Cookies are a Delicious Treat" thing or whatever it is in Firefox.

Imagine...

[SrmL]

...a beowulf cluster of these!

Math error on Apple's part

[Pedahzur]

On their main page http://www.apple.com/ they have a nice little splash screen for the shuffle that says "240 songs. A million different ways." Actually, shouldn't that be 4.0678853636470581e+468 different ways (assuming no repetition)?

Re:Math error on Apple's part

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it should be: 40678853636470581204935759214868853101720512591828 27146069755969081486918925585104009100729728348522 92382089024587009865914715605190573256314738159909 84592447524630276881157053717046282863266212384565 43307267608612545168337779669138759451760395968217 42361795433073703416459649696398681772225222105976 80808524899409956055791719996669160040429652938967 99800598079985264195119506681577622056215044851618
236292136960000000000000000000000000000000000000 00 0000000000000000000.

Mac mini...

[mstefanus]

Yes people... Beowulf!

Now we can build a budget Virginia Tech thingy of our own.

The fine print...

[bubba451]

From the iPod shuffle spec page:

1. Music capacity is based on 4 minutes per song and 128Kbps AAC encoding.
2. Do not eat iPod shuffle.
3. Rechargeable batteries have a limited number of charge cycles and may eventually need to be replaced. Battery life and number of charge cycles vary by use and settings. See www.apple.com/batteries for more information.
4. Some computers require either the optional iPod shuffle Dock or a USB cable extender (sold separately).

Re:The fine print...

[GreenHell]

Don't forget the Mac mini's fine print:

Keyboard, mouse, megaphone and display sold separately.

Megaphone?

Re:The fine print...

[nuggetman]

Megaphone?

Lower right hand side, next to the part about tell your friends

The "design" page tells you that the hands aren't included either.

Re:The fine print...

[GreenHell]

Lower right hand side, next to the part about tell your friends

Ah. I was searching the page for 'megaphone', but never thought to pay attention to those graphics on the right.

The "design" page tells you that the hands aren't included either.

Dammit! But I could really have used a pair of sexy-looking hands!

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[NardofDoom]

It comes with a keyboard and mouse. If you want more than one button, you pay a little extra.

Mac Mini

[nek]

There's a $100 Superdrive option! Couple that with a good Firewire TV tuner/capture and you have a nice PVR with DVD burning capabilities. With a large external firewire drive, of course.

On the other hand, the 1GB RAM upgrade costs $50 less than the entire Mac Mini. Ouch. Don't buy RAM from Apple. Ever.

very important detail

[sonatinas]

Ordering prints form iphoto is now cheaper. 19 cents for 4x6 prints is a big deal.

Get off store

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't buy 'cus the fricking store is slashdoted!

the pictures look good but

[unclem0nkey]

i'm sure they're hiding that damn dirty external power supply

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[Ethelred Unraed]

Hopefully, it'll work with the PS/2 keyboards and mice that I've got lying around, if not then I suppose that I'll be shelling out for USB ones but that's no great loss.

Or just pick up a used Mac one on eBay for a song.

You can use Winders USB keyboards, but it's a little less confusing if you get a Mac one.

Cheers,

Ethelred

sorry won't work this time

[phsdv]

The one mouse button. It is at least getting harder to bash Apple products.

from http://www.apple.com/macmini: And yes, Mac mini will take advantage of your two-button USB mouse with scroll-wheel and your favorite USB keyboard.

Re:sorry won't work this time

[daviddennis]

People are going to be pretty confused about the different key names when they use a regular PC keyboard with the Mini. I'm not sure if this was such a good decision, and it feels cheap.

On the other hand, I think I know why it was done: The cool factor of the iPod-style packaging. Make it look like an iPod, people subconsciously think it will be just like one. Clever marketing move, and you can buy the keyboard and mouse right at the Apple store.

D

Re:sorry won't work this time

[Drakino]

People are going to be pretty confused about the different key names when they use a regular PC keyboard with the Mini.

Control maps to Control
Alt maps to Alt (Option)
Windows key maps to the Apple (Command) key

The only difference is that Apple keyboards put Ctrl and Alt togther, instead of putting the Windows/Apple key in the middle.

I'm betting it comes with a quick start poster that explains this, so I don't see it being too bad.

Re:sorry won't work this time

[Moofie]

Whoa whoa whoa! Next you're going to tell me that the left mouse button does the left click, and the right mouse button does the right click!

YOU'RE TALKIN' CRAZY TALK!!!

(i'm right there with you, man. I can't understand why people are working so hard to find fault with this machine. Probably because they're the idiots who said "I'll never buy a Mac until I can get one without a monitor, and for less than $500!" Me, I hope they DON'T buy 'em. They're just gonna hose up my platform.)

Re:sorry won't work this time

[daviddennis]

I was thinking that your typing fingers will be confused because they will "think" the wrong things, and that might get people in trouble.

That being said, you should know I'm a very happy G5 owner, so your reasoning doesn't apply to me :-).

D

I think they did it...

[TheWart]

I really think apple has hit a home run with the ipod shuffle...all my friends that have iPods almost all use shuffle, and they are already drooling over this.

Heck, at this price point, even stingy me is hovering over the "buy now" button.

this beats the pants off of the xpc...

[capsteve]

consider the size of the package, and the quality of the operating system, i think this is an absolute winner. i was actually consdering buying a xpc for my blender and povray work(openbsd), but this is a much better offering. $500 is not much, when you consider a bare-bones xpc is $300+, not including HD, MEM,graphics card... i gotta get one!

Re:this beats the pants off of the xpc...

[manno]

But think of all the time you would save on rendering if you upgraded to a larger box P4/A64/G5 for not gaming, not rendering this is a good system, but for rendering get a real workstation type PC go for an A64 P4, or if you have the bling bling definitly a G5. But you can still put together a more powerful (not as stylish or easy to use) x86 system for the same price. If you plan on making video a 40GB hard drive will fill up quick. For ma, and pop a G4 is a great system, but for a power user like you especially one whose using for rendering I would suggest a more powerful system with more RAM, a faster processor, and a larger hard drive.

Here's a system, that speaking strictly only in terms of performance this would be a way better system for you:
http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishR.asp?ID=1230141

2x the RAM,
2x the Hard Drive Space
Slightly better processor
Better DVD drive (Dual Layer)
WAY better video card. The 9550 is the same thing as a 9600 just clocked lower, overclock it a tad and you'll be playing Far Cry, Doom 3, Half-Life 2, all at reasonable resolutions, and very playable frame rates

And still just under $500

Of course it's not as pretty and FRIGGAN HUGE compared to the sexy and sleek mini. Not to mention the ugly XP UI. But over time it will shave days off of your rendering time.

Do yourself a favor, and get a true workstation for rendering.

-manno

Re:this beats the pants off of the xpc...

[capsteve]

you make a persuasive case for going the cheaper x86 route, but i don't want to eat up that kind of room:space is a premium in my home office these days. the xpc was attractive, size-wise(and a reasonable performer), and i'd probably end up running open/freebsd on it. i'm not a big gamer, so the gaming argument falls on deaf ears. you also mentioned XP, but i don't see that on your shopping list ;-), that plus all the FOSS goodies that run on X aren't gonna run under XP.

you did mention the XP UI, and that is a big negative... if you've ever experienced X for day to day work(i'm in the graphic arts industry) mac wins hands down. i'm hard pressed to move away from the aqua experience...

the rendering time does have me concerned, though... i know pov has the povbench database, know of any blender benchmark tests for different platforms/os?

Re:this beats the pants off of the xpc...

[manno]

Unfortunately I know of no benchmark comparisons across platforms for blender. I just know that the G4 gets trounced by all the modern architectures, in both FP, and Int. You also raise a good point about the software package though, I read somewhere that iWork might be included with the mini, and that would be a really nice bonus (i might even consider buying one if that's the case). On the size issue I totally feel you especially since the mini makes every SFF I've seen look big, it's also probably quieter, and less power hungry. Honestly though if you were a customer, and said I have $500 to spend on a rendering box I couldn't in good conscience recommend the mini, I mean it only has 256MB of RAM could you imagine the thrashing your harddrive will get in a texture intensive scene? And we're not talking a very intensive one either after OSX + all of it's components, and Blender itself you might have 128-180MB of RAM left for the render. If you came in and said I want web, email, music, and word processing, I'd be hard pressed not recommending the mini. -manno

iPod Shuffle: Worthless for Classical Music

[Jerrry]

This thing is worthless for those of us who like classical music, much of which consists of larger, multiple movement works. Playing these in random order will be a complete mess.

Re:iPod Shuffle: Worthless for Classical Music

[kakapo]

It will play straight through as well, apparently.

Re:iPod Shuffle: Worthless for Classical Music

[gobbo]

Playing these in random order will be a complete mess.

So don't. Just play your playlist the way you ordered it before uploading.

Re:iPod Shuffle: Worthless for Classical Music

[Anonymous Coward]

isnt this geard to the teenager who cant afford the real ipod, or doesnt want the big ipod, i dont know why when something comes out someone comes along with some obscure feature that only they could possible want and then says it sucks because said feature is left out....?

Re:iPod Shuffle: Worthless for Classical Music

[Moofie]

You weren't going to buy one anyway. Come on, admit it.

Of course, the fact that there's a switch on the back that clearly shows how to change to sequential mode isn't going to change anything. You're going to find something else about the iPod shuffle to hate.

If it makes you feel better, hey...knock yourself out.

Do NOT Taunt iPod Shuffle

[SPYvSPY]

* Warning: Pregnant women, the elderly and children under 10 should avoid prolonged exposure to iPod Shuffle.

* Caution: iPod Shuffle may suddenly accelerate to dangerous speeds.

* iPod Shuffle contains a liquid core, which, if exposed due to rupture, should not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.

* Do not use iPod Shuffle on concrete.

Discontinue use of iPod Shuffle if any of the following occurs:

* Itching

* Vertigo

* Dizziness

* Tingling in extremities

* Loss of balance or coordination

* Slurred speech

* Temporary blindness

* Profuse sweating

* Heart palpitations

If iPod Shuffle begins to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.

iPod Shuffle may stick to certain types of skin.

When not in use, iPod Shuffle should be returned to its special container and kept under refrigeration...

Failure to do so relieves the makers of iPod Shuffle, Apple Computer Corp. and its iCEO Steven P. Jobs, of any and all liability.

Ingredients of iPod Shuffle include an unknown glowing substance which fell to Earth, presumably from outer space.

iPod Shuffle has been shipped to our troops in Saudi Arabia and is also being dropped by our warplanes on Iraq.

Do not taunt iPod Shuffle.

iPod Shuffle comes with a lifetime guarantee.

iPod Shuffle

ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!

Re:Do NOT Taunt iPod Shuffle

[Anonymous Coward]

Discontinue use of iPod Shuffle if any of the following occurs:

* Vertigo

Hmm, I've seen some of Apple's commercials, and they make it seem as though "Vertigo" is one of the intended effects of the product.

Re:Do NOT Taunt iPod Shuffle

[michaeltk]

The parent post is an unabashed rip-off of the old Saturday Night Live commercial, "Happy Fun Ball": http://www.faqs.org/faqs/tv/sat-night-live/commerc ials/ Thanks for the memories, I guess.

Re:Do NOT Taunt iPod Shuffle

[Anonymous Coward]

So Steve Jobs WAS behind Happy Fun Ball...!

Re:Do NOT Taunt iPod Shuffle

[Frank of Earth]

> * Vertigo

So it's not compatible with the U2 iPod?

Re:Do NOT Taunt iPod Shuffle

[Netsnipe]

You forgot to mention: iPod(TM) Shuffle may contain traces of nuts.

Just a 2 button mouse away from death!

[Anonymous Coward]

How long have people wanted a headless mac only to hear from the faithful that such a machine would kill Apple? The end is near - next the multibutton mouse will finish the company off...

Animated GIF of Mini mobo

[saddino]

Here. Very nice. I wonder who'll be the first to sacrifice their own and post a full autopsy?

Mac mini =? (almost) Perfect media center

[Pedahzur]

Small, quiet, easy to use, and gobs of storage. This sounds like a great addition to my audio/video system. Even DVI output. Visualizations on a 30" HD widescreen. Yummy. Now just need to find a usb or firewire to audio bridge so I don't lose that 5.1 sound.

Re:Mac mini =? (almost) Perfect media center

[byjove]

Try this: m-audio

Mac mini dimensions

[b1t r0t]

The Mac Mini is the headless iMac... 6x6x2.5 with all the expected plugs, starting at $499.

That's 6.5" x 6.5" x 2"

I want to see a picture of three of these stacked up next to a Cube. How about a Beowulf cluster of these! And buy two, they're cheap.

Apple Laptops

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone know if Apple is planning on launching any new ibooks/powerbooks? I would like to purchase one but I dont want to buy one now and a new one come out in 2 months.

No optical out on the imac mini?

[tgd]

What a dumb move. With optical out it would've made a killer silent home theater system, since its got DVI (perfect for those with HD sets). Add a bluetooth keyboard, and you've got DVI DVD playback, HD photo browsing, web surfing, etc.

Without it, its just a small desktop system.

Considering the Airport Express has optical and analog, they blew it on this one. I'm sure it'll sell well, but thats a big oversight.

Re:No optical out on the imac mini?

[Anonymous Coward]

>> Considering the Airport Express has optical and analog, they blew it on this one. I'm sure it'll sell well, but thats a big oversight

No, they've just sold an additional airport express to people that want to do this. Remember, Steve's smarter than you :-)

Re:No optical out on the imac mini?

[tm2b]

You don't use the MacMini to directly output optical audio, you use it to feed an Airport Express which outputs optical audio.

Although I imagine that somebody outthere could make a firewire frob to output optical audio if there is really a market for it. Firewire really gives you enough bandwidth to do anything you like, up to HDTV .

Re:No optical out on the imac mini?

[Patrick Lewis]

For $100, you can have a USB->optical link. Personally, I'm glad they didn't include the optical link. Makes it cheaper for the 95% of the market that doesn't want or need it.

Re:No optical out on the imac mini?

[tgd]

Unfortunately airport express doesn't show up as a generic audio device, its specific to iTunes.

They do make USB dongles, but that makes the unit less compact. Given the small incremental cost, and the prevelance of DD and DTS systems, its weird they left it out.

Re:No optical out on the imac mini?

[Moofie]

DAMMIT! The new Mac mini is....JUST A COMPUTER!

Oh the HUMANITY! Oh, the tearing of hair and gnashing of teeth! They include a free hair shirt, and a lifetime supply of sackcloth and ashes in the box!

Whatever. You're just looking for reasons not to buy it. I hope you just accept your irrational hatred of Apple, and just move on. You'll be OK.

Re:No optical out on the imac mini?

[tgd]

Um. Take a perc, or a prozac. Seriously.

I actually already ordered one, replacing my last Linux system which was acting as a mail and file server. It'll be very happy with the iBook, iMac and gray G4 I've already got.

Thank god for my irrational hatred of Apple, though. Without it I might have not been able to stop myself after buying the Airport Express, two iPods, those other Macs, multiple versions of OSX and the last version of iLife.

That hatred has kept me under the $500 mark in songs bought from iTMS, though. Whew.

Re:No optical out on the imac mini?

[Moofie]

I'm not excited. I was mocking you.

Glad you're happy with the product. Why are you complaining about the one that obviously you liked well enough to, like, buy?

Re:No optical out on the imac mini?

[tgd]

Because I really wanted to use it in the living room, as well. Simple as that. Its a very inexpensive change that would've made the product useful in yet another environment.

I just claimed it was shortsighted to not include it since they have the ability to do hybrid jacks.

Re:No optical out on the imac mini?

[Moofie]

I think it was shortsighted not to include a pony. I like ponies.

Dude...we're talking about the cheapest Mac evar. Are you really, really surprised that it doesn't have optical out? Get a breakout box and be happy. They're not that expensive.

Who knows why they didn't do it? Maybe the sound chip they chose didn't support TOSLINK. Maybe the accountants said they were going to shoot the next engineer that wants to add another feature. Maybe they didn't think that enough people wanted to put these in as media centers to justify the expense.

Whatever the case, bitching about it on /. is not useful.

Re:No optical out on the imac mini?

[tgd]

Now, with a 5-digit UID, you should know by now that bitching is precisely what /. is here for, even if its not useful.

And I'm sure people from Apple read these articles and comments closely. I know Microsoft people do.

Re:No optical out on the imac mini?

[Moofie]

I still want a pony.

Re:The one mouse button

[Peter La Casse]

The one mouse button - any application designed well should only need one button.

Yes: the "Do What I Mean" button.

Looks GOOD

[RAMMS EIN]

Call me a mac freak, but this stuff looks good. Just check Pages. A word processor whose documents look good on screen! That's one I've been waiting for for a long time.

Then the Mac Mini. It blows all those recent "design PCs" out of the water. Upgradability will probably be even worse than for those PCs, but the unit will probably work better. And it's cheap!

As for the iPod shuffle, that's one I might buy (I already have an iBook). A USB memory stick that can play music, too. Although I'm afraid it won't play most of my collection (Ogg Vorbis...)

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[lameland]

I think it might be a good idea BUT only if they certified the config for all of the clones. Sort of like the licensing deals the console manufacturers have with game developers, only in reverse. i.e. You only get to build machines that use our OS as long as we approve your designs and test your machines for compatibility. Apple has worked very hard for their place as one of the top industrial design companies in the world, they don't want some crappy clone machines ruining their image.

Time to put up or shut up...

[seedman]

Okay slashdot folks, all of you who've said for years that Apple boxes are too expensive... "if they made one for $499, I'd buy one"... time to put your wallet where you mouth has been. And you can't bitch because of the one button mouse, since it doesn't come with one. You can just hook up your current N-button USB mouse and be happy. -=- Seedman

Re:Time to put up or shut up...

[Anonymous Coward]

yea, but it has less ram than my calculator.

parent's pc's on ebay?

[tf23]

So how many of you emailed your parents telling them to ebay all the old pc's you've built them over the years?

I figure if they sell them they can pickup a couple hundred and then buying a new mac-mini isn't such a big hit in the checkbook for them.

not Worthless for Classical Music ...

[mbaudis]

... there is a manual switch for "de-shuffling" ;-)

Shutle boxes aren't in the same league

[Anonymous Coward]

Think of this more as Mini-ITX, with Apple style.

But here's the question: Does the thing have vents, or are the holes in the back sealed up. At present, the only truly fanless machines you can buy are $500 Hush-PC machines with a piddly little VIA processor. If Apple has built this thing without a fan, I'm putting this thing on my short list.

Just Bought 2

[Bruha]

Took a bit but I managed to order 2 through the website. My wife demanded one immediately after I told her about it and we'll I want a stable Linux operating system that looks good.

Lets not argue the Merits of OSX vs Linux.. it's Linux enough for me and I'll probably dual load it with Yellowdog also for fun.

I also think I will eventually get a 3rd one to turn it into a media center if I can find a USB device that can record tv and everything.. this will be a lot of fun!

Re:Just Bought 2

[easter1916]

It isn't "Linux" enough at all -- it's BSD-based, so it's UNIX-like or BSD-like. Nothing to do with Linux.

Re:Just Bought 2

[danigiri]

"I also think I will eventually get a 3rd one to turn it into a media center if I can find a USB device that can record tv and everything.. this will be a lot of fun!"

You mean, like, this? (Firewire)

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[Anonymous Coward]

Hopefully, it'll work with the PS/2 keyboards and mice that I've got lying around, if not then I suppose that I'll be shelling out for USB ones but that's no great loss.

Heh. Most new PCs don't even work with PS/2.

'll have a nice little toy that'll give me some first-hand experience of MacOS 10.4 plus my girlfriend will have a easy-to-use machine that she can play with when I'm hogging my PC.

Yeah, I found that my "little toy" became the most useful machine I owned. And that I ended up making my girlfriend (er...wife) use the PC...

DEVELOPERS UNIX BOX = imac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Any developers here forced to use windows at work? An imac mini plus a kvm switch to the keyboard, monitor and mouse and presto - instant unix dev box for $500.

I may get one just to carry back and forth to work.

Re:DEVELOPERS UNIX BOX = imac Mini

[AHumbleOpinion]

It will need to be a USB KVM, they cost a little more. Also the KVM will probably support VGA connectors not DVI. If you want DVI that will cost a lot more. That said, I have used a USB KVM and a nice 21" tube to go between a couple of PCs and a Mac and it worked fairly well. The only trouble spot was when I plugged in the USB speakers. If I was switching between Windows and Mac desktops everything was fine soundwise, but if I was dual boxing in some game I could loose sound during the switch. Overall the USB KVM worked far better than I expected and having one keyboard, mouse, monitor, and 2.1 sound on the desk was nice.

Re:DEVELOPERS UNIX BOX = imac Mini

[the narf]

Also the KVM will probably support VGA connectors not DVI. If you want DVI that will cost a lot more.

Nope. Read the specs. The Mac mini comes with a DVI-to-VGA adapter in the box. So you don't need a DVI KVM; just a USB model.

Re:DEVELOPERS UNIX BOX = imac Mini

[AHumbleOpinion]

Nope. Read the specs. The Mac mini comes with a DVI-to-VGA adapter in the box. So you don't need a DVI KVM; just a USB model.

Thank you but I did read the specs. The point you are missing is that someone who has a DVI capable monitor probably does not want to use the VGA. If they wanted only VGA they could have saved a lot of money.

Do not eat iPod shuffle.

[minus_273]

on the ipod shuffle website it says: "Ipod shuffle smaller than a pack of gum and much more fun (2)" further down (2) is explained as " Do not eat ipod shuffle" hahaha

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[timmyf2371]

Out of curiousity I checked Apple's UK Store and it looks like the price for the basic model will be £339, which brings the Mac Mini into the commodity hardware price range.

Similar to yourself, I've also got the feeling I'll be a Mac owner pretty soon.

For the Lazy

[Pfhor]

(And for posterity?)
http://www.students.bucknell.edu/cbarker/iPodShuff le.jpg

No audio in?

[glrotate]

What good is the Garagebands then?

Re:No audio in?

[Mad_Rain]

Garagebands is good on all the other Macs too. ;)

I'm sure you can also run something through the USB ports, although I have no idea how kludgy that would get at some point.

Re:No audio in?

[black mariah]

Not very, if you use something for the task such as Digidesign's Mbox

Re:No audio in?

[Anonymous Coward]

A $35 iMic gives you stereo audio-in via USB. It also has another audio-out.

Re:No audio in?

[neuroklinik]

Sheez people... There are plenty of USB/FireWire audio and video breakout boxes in the world. BUY ONE. That will get you decent quality av in/out.

Re:No audio in?

[Moofie]

All four people who need an analog line in can get a USB adaptor for about $30.

Re:No audio in?

[soft_guy]

Not kludgy at all. There are USB/Instrument adapters/PreAmps that you can get for GarageBand. The one I have is made by M-Audio and it works fine to plug in my guitar to my 867MHz PowerBook G4. Since the mini is a better machine than my PowerBook, I would assume it would work even better there. No perceptible delay, this thing works fabulously.

Also, there is a FireWire port on the Mac Mini also. I think that M-Audio may make a Firewire adapter that might be a bit faster than the USB one if you needed to plug into >1 instrument at a time.

Re:MOD PARENT UP - SECONDED

[PatrickThomson]

Seconded

A good deal, but you have to pay for features

[IronChefMorimoto]

The Mac Mini is a great deal, but if you want to add memory and WiFi, the minimum price for the low-end model goes from $499 to $653 w/ 512MB of RAM and the AirPort Express card. Tack on nearly $500 on $499 if you want 1GB of Apple's nitpicky memory. Damn.

I'd get one, but not unless I couldn't get the memory upgrade from Crucial and have it work flawlessly without lockups (seen this often in a co-worker's memory anemic PowerBook 15").

IronChefMorimoto

Re:A good deal, but you have to pay for features

[mihalis]

I'd get one, but not unless I couldn't get the memory upgrade from Crucial and have it work flawlessly without lockups (seen this often in a co-worker's memory anemic PowerBook 15"

Just as another data point, I have an original 12" Powerbook G4/superdrive/60GB hard drive. I put 512MB ordered from Crucial in the memory hatch on the underside and it works flawlessly all the time (except when I STILL run out of memory!!).

Mac Mini, Ram, & KVM = sub $650 workstation

[amichalo]

I have to say after reading the rumors, I was suspect that the Mac Mini would be underpowered, but after completing a web-app dev project on a 1Ghz iMac with 768MB ram, I find the possibility of developing with this 1.25 Ghz sub-$650 workstation (when you factor in a good KVM from the likes of Belkin and some more Ram) to be awesome.

1.25 Ghz Mac Mini - $499
Belkin 2 port KVM - $38
512 MB Ram (for 1.25 iMac) - $93

What blows my mind even more is that the $650 our company would spend just on Office and Visual Studio _licensing_ gets all the software (Xcode) for developing as well as OS X and, oh yeah, the computer!

Re:Mac Mini, Ram, & KVM = sub $650 workstation

[lrodrig]

I don't think the KVM switch will be necessary. The Mini might work without keyboard, mouse, and monitor by connecting it to the network and using it via Apple Remote Desktop. We would have to experiment with one to be sure.

Re:Mac Mini, Ram, & KVM = sub $650 workstation

[Seanasy]

Yeah, you can use a free VNC too but a KVM will be nicer for when you want to see that pretty GUI without the lag. And if you keep the iMac Mini right next to your other workstation, why bother with remote display? It would be useful for seeing both desktops at once.

Re:Mac Mini, Ram, & KVM = sub $650 workstation

[Anonymous Coward]

That particular KVM switch won't do you much good, anyway. Macs don't use PS/2 ports. You'll need a USB switch.

And we'll call it ...

[kitzilla]

... Mini Mac, not Mac Mini.

Not a lot of ponies, but this ought to sell. Damn: it's smaller than the cube (and considerably more powerful, even though it's no PowerMac). Hope their supplier can crank a lot of these things. Wonder how it will impact the sales of its more nimble iMac sister?

As I expected, iWork is a competitor for Microsoft Works, not MS Office (yet). That must be where they are heading, since it's bundled with presentation software. Won't get there without a spreadsheet app. But if it's light and fast, I might buy a copy. Never have liked Office's gaudy take an Aqua. A lot of folks have little need to open an Excel sheet.

Shuffle is a home run. Won't replace the iPod, kills off Apple's flash-based competitors, and doubles as a storage device. Great price points. The random music playback interface addresses all the repetition complaints we in radio hear on a daily basis. Just load it every morning and go. It's always different. Damn.

Best consumer-level Macworld ever. Once upon a time, Macs weren't just for well-heeled suburban types. With these affordable products, Apple has found its way home. Shame on Sony for letting Apple humiliate them -- again.

PVR

[pinkocommie]

Now if only it could've had something like the Hauppauge PVR 350 (Hardware MPEG2 encoding / TV OUT), would've mdae the perfect settop box, hot aesthetically pleasing with a great price point :)

Re:PVR

[adpowers]

Well, you don't need anything extra to record HDTV.

MOD PARENT UP

[fracai]

in all seriousness, you could buy around 8 of these for the same price as one of the higher end PowerMacs. get them all connected via wireless and you've got quite the set up for some xCode shared compiling.

If these don't sell like hotcakes, I'll be very surprised.

WTF??

[havarv]

2. Do not eat iPod shuffle.

IPod Shuffle Small Print

[Varkias]

Anyone see the IPod Shuffle small print. LOL.

1. Music capacity is based on 4 minutes per song and 128Kbps AAC encoding.
2. Do not eat iPod shuffle.
3. Rechargeable batteries have a limited number of charge cycles and may eventually need to be replaced. Battery life and number of charge cycles vary by use and settings. See www.apple.com/batteries for more information.
4. Some computers require either the optional iPod shuffle Dock or a USB cable extender (sold separately).

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn indeed. I only wish it had an optional TV tuner and I would use it for an HTPC in a heartbeat.

Does Myth run on OSX?

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[spencerogden]

After selling 10 million iPods (jesus christmas!) I don't think they are moving away from hardware.

What I see more focus on hardware design, the exact opposite of the clone fiasco. They are getting, and supporting, higher margins on their hardware because of their design engineering. No other MP3 player looks or feels as good as the iPod. The Mini looks looks like another homerun, their first small form factor PC and its uniquely Apple and great looking.

Apple's focus has shifted to perfecting the Human-Computer interface. This is what it was all about originally. They are focusing on the look and feel of products, both hardware and software.

Get the details right, and they will come.

What is that case?

[Nerdy]

On the design page for the mini, it is stacked next to what is probably a PC case. Any ideas who makes that case?

http://images.apple.com/macmini/images/designstack 20050111.gif/

Re:What is that case?

[Anonymous Coward]

HP. we've got one at work...

Re:What is that case?

[nuggetman]

It's an HP tower

Err...

[timster121]

The iPod Shuffle is pack-of-gum sized, no screen, weighs less than an ounce.

Incomplete sentences which have grammatical errors make me very.

Proof of the iPod dominance in the marketplace

[amichalo]

An interesting note from MacWorld is something Jobs said about the iPod Mini.

Before the iPod Mini was released, the flash player market was double what it is today. That means the iPod Mini did NOT canibalize hard drive player/iPod sales but instead got Flash player buyers to spend more money on buying a Mini and claimed the upper end of the Flash Player market.

This means the iPod Shuffle is being sent in to sweep up the low end market where people are buying $49 128 MB players.

303 posts at 0 ...

[mbaudis]

... and no beowulf comment? no, i won't either!

iWork

[Dr. Shim]

iDo??

Is It Really An AppleWorks REPLACEMENT?

[buckhead_buddy]

The two components of iWork (Pages and Keynote) look great. I expect that these will set new UI standards for other word processors and presentation packages to swipe from. What was mildly disappointing was what iWork elminated from the market. Besides the word processor and presentation modules, AppleWorks 6 had:

• A two-dimensional, charting spreadsheet
• A flat file database
• A very basic bitmap paint program
• A very basic vector drawing program
• An architecture to plug in other editors
• Tons of cheesy clip-art, fonts, and templates
• Mac OS 9 compatability via its Carbon roots

In some ways these were completely crap features. The shell that these editors plugged into was very non-Aqua. The editors were bare basic items that looked to specifically not compete with even the most basic shareware on the market. And although Apple had seemingly dropped support for AppleWorks files createed on the Apple ][, it was a model of backwards compatability in terms of it's file formats.

This always seemed to me to be more of a checklist feature (Why, Yes, we do have a free Works package bundled with every Mac.) than something they were very proud of. So I can see why they'd want to sweep it under the rug. I do hope that they are working on updating the other modules at least to make working with them in an Aqua-esque environment to be a pleasure. I think the shareware crowd could use a bit of encouragement to get their apps up to a level that could compete with iWorks.

As an aside, I had expected Apple to name this suite with a name that had just a bit more subversion or punch... something like iHo (iHo, it's off to work we go).

Re:Is It Really An AppleWorks REPLACEMENT?

[chialea]

You know, I'd pretty much kill for a piece of presentation software that can do two things: inline PDFs and save as PPT (for my advisor).

Power* computers already come with OmniGraffle, which is rather nice for vector drawing (to me, this means "like XFig, but better", but I'm told it's more like something called "Visio").
Clip art is quite findable on the web nowadays, so I don't see the need.

But hey, I'm part of a very specialized market. But if anyone knows of a piece of presentation software for the mac that can inline PDFs and save to PPT....

Lea

Portable

[slapout]

You know, I'm wondering something. I wonder if they made this thing so small to encourge people to take it out and show it off. Want to tell you friends about your new Mac? Just take it over to their house and plug it in to their monitor. Wanna convince the boss that it could be a solution to some of your problems? Take it to work and plug it in!

No Clones

[Anonymous Coward]

If they can do it, and if they can increase their market share, they would certainly seem to have enough room to manovour and licence the Mac to clone builders again..

Actually I think the exact opposite. Remember, one of the things that killed the last clone attempt was the fact that Apple was having to absorb all the cost of r&d while allowing the clones to cannabilize their own sales. Units like the Mac Mini take a lot of r&d bucks to design, they'd either have to charge exhorbanant sums to their oems (giving them little breathing room on price), or face the same problem as they did last time (which Steve in no uncertain terms made clear that he didn't like). Perhaps the closest we'll get to seeing clones is what HP is doing with the iPod, really just a re-branded unit.

Re:No Clones

[Anonymous Coward]

Puhlease. Apple licensed both the hardware and the software to the clone makers. Do you really think the clone makers weren't doing any r&d? Umax came up with something to allow double speed ram. Power Computing had machines that consistently performed faster than Apple's and at a lower price. It's been so long I really don't remember many specifics, but the 2nd generation clones that were just coming out when Apple pulled the plug had many improvements and innovations not found in Apple systems at the time. The problem at the time was Apple's machines were not very good, and they were living in a fantasy world thinking they would still control 90% of the market even with the clones. Just as everyone here believes competition in the OS marketplace is good, so too is competition in the Mac hardware space. It's really too bad Apple killed the clones, but I can't imagine them every bringing them back with Jobs in office.

Safe to say that the claims of M$FT's monopolies

[oldwarrior]

Safe to say that the claims of M$FT's monopolies
over the OS and Office application markets may now be officially blown out the backsides of the EU courts and State's PA's here.

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[dcavens]

But that ishuffle thing? blechhh. I'm sure it will do well 'cause of the fanatics, but I think it's just silly. Around 15 albums worth of music and no navigation? Anyone who wants a gumstick sized mp3 player should see the iaudio U2


Except that the U2 costs more than twice as much than the new ipod.. I'm ordering one tomorrow, as soon as the apple store calms down.

d.

Not just for exercising!

[mrchaotica]

I'm not a runner or anything, but this is exactly what I want too -- all I do with iTunes is shuffle play my "3 stars or above" Smart Playlist anyway!

TO CLARIFY: iPod Shuffle LETS YOU NAVIGATE!

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting as AC, but it's being the major misunderstanding:

IPOD SHUFFLE LET'S YOU NAVIGATE IF YOU WANT, RANDOMNESS IS AN OPTION!

From Apple's website:

"With Play in Order mode, you manage the music. If things take a turn for the predictable, never fear. Turn iPod shuffle over, flip the slider to Shuffle and mix on the go."

Re:TO CLARIFY: iPod Shuffle LETS YOU NAVIGATE!

[i_should_be_working]

Driving while blindfolded is technically navigating too. So I should have said it has no useful navigation.

Re:TO CLARIFY: iPod Shuffle LETS YOU NAVIGATE!

[Anonymous Coward]

It will be fantastic for audiobooks though. You rarely need to navigate from track to track in an audiobook and you can fit more than one book on the 1GB version. Perfect for long trips.

When I bought my iPod mini I quit using the 15GB iPod I had and recently gave it away (re-gifted). When I buy my 1GB shuffle I bet my mini usage goes down by 80%.

Re:TO CLARIFY: iPod Shuffle LETS YOU NAVIGATE!

[Moofie]

You know how I use my iPod most of the time? I plug in my cans. I push the "play" button through the little case I keep it in. I listen to the music.

Now, I like having a screen, and on-the-go playlists and everything....but I can also completely understand how some users (joggers?) would Just Not Care about having a screen.

How many people use their CD players with only the remote sticking out of their bag? Hell...how many CD players display the track name? (Yeah, my MP3 CD player does. Well, did. Until I sent it to Africa.)

Re:TO CLARIFY: iPod Shuffle LETS YOU NAVIGATE!

[i_should_be_working]

yes, I admit, most of the time I use my mp3 player like this too. And I can understand how some people might not care if it doesn't have an lcd. But at least once a day it's essential for me to look at the lcd when I want to hear a specific album or song.

I'm also kind of irked about how this is suddenly a 'feature'. My first cd mp3 player had this 'feature'. It sucked. It's hard navigating through over 200 songs with no display. Many other flash players have had small or no lcds but were considered to be shit because of it. One of the main complaints about Sony and Creative's flash players are their small lcds. But now that Apple has one with no lcd, it's an innovative design feature.

Re:TO CLARIFY: iPod Shuffle LETS YOU NAVIGATE!

[Moofie]

"But at least once a day it's essential for me to look at the lcd when I want to hear a specific album or song"

So don't buy one.

"I'm also kind of irked about how this is suddenly a 'feature'"

It's called marketing. What should they do...apologize?

". Many other flash players have had small or no lcds but were considered to be shit because of it. "

So consider the shuffle "shit". I'm pretty sure Steve won't lose any sleep.

"But now that Apple has one with no lcd, it's an innovative design feature."

No. Now that Apple is making one, Apple is marketing it as a feature. What did you expect?

It doesn't suit my needs. That doesn't mean it's not a good product at a good price.

Re:TO CLARIFY: iPod Shuffle LETS YOU NAVIGATE!

[i_should_be_working]

I'm not irked at Apple. I'm irked at all the sheep that're going to buy the marketing hype and make this thing a success when it brings nothing new to the market. But I shouldn't be. After all, no money out of my pocket.

I will be irritated however when someone sees my player and asks me why in the world I didn't get a Shuffle.

Re:TO CLARIFY: iPod Shuffle LETS YOU NAVIGATE!

[Moofie]

Who are you to decide who's a "sheep", and who bought an iPod because it was the product best suited to their needs?

You're free to be irritated all you want. Somehow, I don't think Steve is going to stay up late at night worrying about it. I know for damn sure I won't.

Re:TO CLARIFY: iPod Shuffle LETS YOU NAVIGATE!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think many people in China will care that it doesn't have a display. They are used to MP3 players that can only hold a few songs, and they will just load them up, press play and stick them in their pocket, until they get where they are going. Almost never will the fiddle with it.

I use my 30GB iPod in the same way, except I select a single play list before I heard off on my journey.

The LCD is only used when you let someone else listen to it - they like to browse the list and listen to bits of songs...

IMO

Re:TO CLARIFY: iPod Shuffle LETS YOU NAVIGATE!

[i_should_be_working]

Actually Steve should and probably does worry about what his customers think. You on the other hand should not take criticism of a commercial product that you have no investment in so personally. But I'm glad my opinions don't keep you up at night. That would be scary.

Re:TO CLARIFY: iPod Shuffle LETS YOU NAVIGATE!

[Moofie]

He DOES worry about what his customers think. He DOESN'T worry about the people who find fault with everything Apple ships.

Apple Store /. ed

[Anonymous Coward]

Flex ye ol' /. muscle, will ya?

Keynote points Roundup

[mrdaveb]

You can read a good summary of all the announcements made at the Apple Keynote here

Re:First shuffle!

[Anonymous Coward]

From what I've read, there's no playlists on the iPod Shuffle. It just randomly plays songs.

what exactly are you reading? Jackass Daily? i ask since you obviously didn't read APPLE'S OWN FUCKING PAGE. here, let me note the salient points for you, you poor pathetic schlemiel:

• "Autofill iPod shuffle from a specific iTunes Playlist..."
• "...drag and drop individual songs from iTunes onto iPod shuffle."
• "...Play in Order mode..." !!!

somebody mod this troll down.

Now all apple has to do

[mindstrm]

is update the powerbook line.

I mean, seriously.

I love macs. I love my iBook. IF I were to buy another mac righ tnow, it would be a G4 ibook to replace my aging G3 ibook.
Why not a powerbook?

It's too dated. They *NEED* to revise this, and soon.

What it needs:

- Better display. It's a fine display and all, but it sucks compared to the new translfective high-contrast displays on new toshibas and sonys... let's upgrade.

- HIgher resolutions. I know, people say "Why would you want higher resolutions on a laptop screen". Why? DETAILS. Increased resolution doesn't have to mean smaller fonts, it just means more detail and smoother displays. 3 years ago I had a 1600x1200 15" display... Apple still has nothing with this DPI, and in my opinion, should have even higher.

- Update the 12" specifically... with Gig-E and FW800 (might have the latter already, I forget). WHy compromise on ethernet speed?

- macs are REALLY not good with drink spills... do SOME level of toughbook-style design. please... at least make the keyboard waterproofed.

I say all this because I"m at the point of wanting a new notebook, but I can't in good conscience buy a powerbook at the price they sell at considering how behind the displays are.

Let me introduce

[LetterJ]

Mac Mini, meet Mr. KVM switch.

MSWF Coverage Here Next Year?

[adavies42]

Next year, MWSF coverage should be hosted on Slashdot. If nothing else, there should be a topic where people in the audience at the keynote can comment as it proceeds, but ideally there would be a page specifically for a report--surely one of the editors can get in on a press pass.

I just spent the entire keynote switching (no pun intended) between five different mac fansites and two IRC channels trying to find *one* news source that wasn't completely overloaded. If anyone can handle that kind of bandwidth, it's Slashdot.

woooo hoooooo!

[Skweez]

Steve Jobs should be president of America =)

HAHA! Fine print of the year!

[IronChefMorimoto]

Read this page -- http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/ -- and look at footnote #2 at the bottom that corresponds with the photo of the iPod Shuffle with sticks of gum:

"Do not eat iPod shuffle."

ROFLMAO!

IronChefMorimoto

AGP 4x slot

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't like the graphics card, you can now switch it out. But this machine only supports 1 gig of RAM, comeon apple, just add another slot, puhlease!! :-(

Apple's overpriced RAM upgrades strike again!

[Andy_R]

1Gb iPod Shuffle = 99 UK pounds

Expanding MacMini from 256 Mb to 1Gb = 290 UK pounds!

Re:Apple's overpriced RAM upgrades strike again!

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, don't buy your ram from Apple.
Go here http://www.ramseeker.com/ and save lots o dollars or pounds or what ever.

Sheesh, kids buying ram from a computer vendor, what's the world coming to.

BTW, Post Made on a Mac

Home run after a home run after a home run

[melted]

after a home run. Way to go, Apple. Release products that kick ass and people will come to you. If that's not capitalism then I don't know what is.

No, but its format may be eventually opened

[soullessbastard]

Disclaimer: I am a developer of OpenOffice.org for Mac OS X and a founder of the NeoOffice project

If Keynote is any indicator, they will most likely not support OpenOffice.org or OASIS formats. There is also no OASIS or XML option in the screenshots of their filter sheet. While it's unclear from the limited info on the website, Pages may save either in RTF or in its own internal format. If it's internal, Apple most likely will open up this file format over time.

When Keynote first came out its file format was "secret" unless you wanted to reverse engineer the XML. A month or two after the software came out they did publish the Keynote schema for their documents. So they are using an open file format for Keynote, even if Keynote is the only application that uses it.

I spec'd a Keynote filter for OOo/NeoOffice a long time ago but no one has taken up the task of implementing or revising that specification. Being able to import Keynote formatted documents just isn't really a commonly requested feature (definitely much less so then Aqua user interface) so I haven't spent my own time on it.

ed

Mac Mini and Tiger?

[apetime]

After seeing the Mac Mini, two things popped into my head. First: that thing is really cool. I want one.
and second: Tiger is not going to need top of the line hardware.

After the iMac G5s came out, I was really worried about whether my iBook G4 would be able to handle Tiger well enough, but the specs of the Mac Mini seem to show that Tiger will probably be fine on most G4s (unless Apple is out to alienate the huge market they've created today.) I was worried about how much longer Apple's "faster on the same hardware" OS development would continue, but it seems that Tiger will at least not run much slower on even slightly dated hardware. Good news from Apple today in a lot of ways.

Re:Mac Mini and Tiger?

[Anonymous Coward]

Judging from the developer previews, Tiger runs on all the hardware Panther does.

Re:Mac Mini and Tiger?

[Fear the Clam]

Furthermore, if you hold out buying a Mac mini until Tiger is released, Tiger will be included.

Re:Mac Mini and Tiger?

[compactable]

... you may be holding out for a long time. Jobs stated that Tiger will be out "before Longhorn" ... I don't take that timeline as a good sign (-;

Re:Mac Mini and Tiger?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been able to run every OS update since 8.6 on my desktop G3 - and incredibly, every update (including the marginal 10.3.7 update) has improved in performance.

Excepting 10.0 and the OS X Public Beta, that is...

Re:Mac Mini and Tiger?

[bnenning]

Jobs stated that Tiger will be out "before Longhorn" ... I don't take that timeline as a good sign (-;

He also specifically said first half of this year.

miniMac: the margin's in the accessories

[gobbo]

How long before the name changes in popular vernacular to miniMac? (Let the austin powers jokes begin.)

They finally caved in to Dell-style 'a la carte' bait-n-switch pricing: get the basics for the advertised price, but start tacking on the accessories to get full function. Looks like the rumours were right, it's aimed at /. cranks and windows iPodders. Check out the accessories page; this is definitely a switcher box, with a kvm and Move2Mac front and centre.

First prediction for big complaints: one RAM slot, so upgrade from crucial then sell your spare on ebay. 2nd: 32MB VRAM, gaming will suck. 3rd, user-serviceable access will be unlikely. Hey, I say, it's the appliance plus they've been hinting at for a while, and its expandability will be primarily USB/1393/bluetooth.

Re:miniMac: the margin's in the accessories

[Anonymous Coward]

1393
What's IEEE 1393?

Re:miniMac: the margin's in the accessories

[gobbo]

What's IEEE 1393?

Also Known As Firewire (Apple) and iLink (Sony).

FWIW, Firewire is still underutilized and underappreciated. FW800 is very fast, and unlike the USB bus doesn't steal CPU cycles. It can be used for networking (Apple PLEASE finish this feature) and another Mac can be loaded as a simple external HD using Firewire (known as 'Target Disk Mode). It's an IEEE standard, so can be cheap and ubiquitous. It provides decent power to peripherals and with repeaters can be used over distances. I think there is a wireless implementation in the works too (someone correct me).

Re:miniMac: the margin's in the accessories

[Anonymous Coward]

Psst... he was making fun of you because Firewire is IEEE 1394 (not 1393), and you got it wrong.

Re:miniMac: the margin's in the accessories

[gobbo]

you got it wrong

d'oh! wakey wakey... I just dialed 252-1394 to order some gear not 15 minutes earlier!

Re:miniMac: the margin's in the accessories

[Brendor]

Actually it's 1394 and they changed the official name to firewire as well.

Re:miniMac: the margin's in the accessories

[gobbo]

Yes. Preview button, preview button!

Why are the ports on the back????

[Anonymous Coward]

This could easily be plugged into every new plasma screen purchased, as it's smaller than a set top box. Nice digital toy plug. But why not put the firewire and USB ports in front? Or at least on the side. This would make it a mini-media center that could fit in a cabinet and still be accessible, and bluetoothed to a keyboard.

Hell, why not slot in an iPod dock slot on the top?

One reason for no screen on iPod Shuffle

[saddino]

As Jobs noted, the iPod Mini took a nice chunk out of the Flash MP3 player market and thus the Shuffle is meant to take the remainder (low end). However, if the Shuffle were to have a screen (and thus be fully functional) it would almost certainly eat into Mini sales. Thus, the lack of screen is not only a design (elegant) and engineering (fewer parts) triumph, but also a marketing coup (increase marketshare without cannabalizing sales). Impressive.

Re:One reason for no screen on iPod Shuffle

[Anonymous Coward]

The Reason: Fewer parts = less $$

Re:One reason for no screen on iPod Shuffle

[Shag]

The Shuffle will probably also take a nice chunk out of the USB drive market, whether it means to or not.

A friend said "Store files along with your music" ... It's my next thumbdrive.

I concur. Sure, I can get a plain old thumbdrive for $20-$30, probably, but the places I actually wind up using a thumbdrive tend to be 12-24 hours away by jet, and it wouldn't hurt at all to have some tunes available.

A thumbdrive I can use when I'm not using it. It's like having tea and no tea.

Re:One reason for no screen on iPod Shuffle

[tgibbs]

The name "shuffle" is another very clever bit of marketing. You don't need a screen to select which song to play next because the iPod Shuffle is intended for shuffle play. Apple's web site turns the potential negative of no screen into an asset by urging buyers to let it "surprise" them.

Re:One reason for no screen on iPod Shuffle

[Anonymous Coward]

If it had a screen, it'd be genius. If it doesn't have a screen, it is also genius.

Heaven forbid you can actually select which song you want to play!

Re:One reason for no screen on iPod Shuffle

[JamieF]

Or, if you believe what Steve Jobs said in the keynote, they found that people use shuffle anyway, so they just focused on that, and took away the feature of random access. You can turn shuffle off and just use single-song fast-forward and rewind, but with 120 songs that might get pretty annoying.

I had a Rio 500 128MB flash player before I bought an iPod, and with only about 2 albums' worth of space on it, just FF and Rew controls were fine. There was a wheel, and a whole complicated UI, with EQ and bookmarks and such, but really, with about 20 or 30 songs (2 albums) tops, there isn't a need. It's better to just leave it in your pocket and hit the FF button a lot.

I think I'd miss the EQ, and selecting albums. But that's part of why I won't sell my 20GB iPod to buy an iPod shuffle. :)

I suspect that most people, who are song oriented and don't play albums in their entirety like I do, will embrace this and love the whole "what am I going to be hearing today" idea. After all, if you don't exhaust the 120 songs before your next iTunes reloading session, it's effectively shuffling from your entire collection since you won't hear a song repeated.

Plus that $99 thing is handy. Amazon and Best Buy and similar retailers will almost certainly undercut that by a few bucks.

Re:One reason for no screen on iPod Shuffle

[Mspangler]

Looks like I just found the solution to the half-dead cassette deck in my truck. Drive motors (or belts) are acting up, but a cassette adapter works fine. Attach a shuffle, punch play, and I'm done. I don't want to play with a screen or user interface on the road anyway.

When I'm tired of that bunch of tunes, I'll just reload the widget anyway.

Re:One reason for no screen on iPod Shuffle

[porcupine8]

Hell yeah. I was thinking of getting a 128MB USB drive for $30, but why not get four times the space PLUS iPod functionality for only three times the price? Not that I can afford $99 right now - but if I sell off the $30 Best Buy gift card I was gonna buy the other one with, plus a couple other gift cards from Christmas...

*plots*

Damn, and I thought I was gonna spend that money on a GameCube. Yet another market Apple is unintentionally biting into!

Re:One reason for no screen on iPod Shuffle

[KZigurs]

You just Don't Get It. Think about why it's called shuffle.

Apple attempts to make a revolution again.

*resolve shakes*

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait...

My primary complaints about apple were:
Proprietary OS, and
Hardware that's too expensive for the power.

OS X, while proprietary, shows promise as it's based on Darwin...

$500 for a $1.25 mini-itx form factor board with power supply, case, integrated ATI card, 40G hd... I can't build a PC for that cheap...

Oh, god, I think I might just buy a mac... forgive me...

Re:Small Form Factor PCs? - THANKS APPLE!

[Alystair]

THANK YOU APPLE!

At last, I will get a machine that both my parents will be able to use with ease without supervision of their every move. I'm actually going to buy a couple for my family/friends....

Time to take advantage of working at an Apple retailer and all ;)

On the other end of the spectrum, looks like we will need to get more Apple certified technicians working for us, and I will be shipping more parts.

I want one!

[CrazyTalk]

(Note I resisted urge to say iWantOne)

I paid nearly 100 bucks for my 128 MB USB thumb drive (couple years ago, granted) to cart files around. The new iPod can (presumably) do the same for the same price, with more storage AND can play music! Sounds like a win/win. My thumb drive doesnt have or need a screen, and neither does this new iPod. The computer is your screen when you plug it in.

Re:I want one!

[Anonymous Coward]

(Note I resisted urge to say iWantOne)

You just said it, jackass.

Look at the accessories...

[Chief Typist]

Apple has learned something with the iPod -- you can make a shitload of money selling accessories.

And they're focusing on it with one of the iMac mini pages

They're going to end up selling a lot of add-ons to something that "only" costs $499. The funny thing is that some of these things (displays, for example) actually cost more than the original device.

-ch

iWant iWant iWant!

[Yaztromo]

It's all so beautiful...[sniff].

Okay, the new Mac Mini is going to be perfect for my mother. It's certainly going onto the "iWant List".

iLife 05 and iWork I'm going to put on order today (if I can get through to the Apple Store -- that's for /.'ing Apple everyone ;) ).

Damn. I had prepared myself this morning to find out that maybe one of the rumours was true, but all of the major rumours turned out to be true. Joy oh joy! It's like having another Christmas all over again :).

Please allow me to point one last thing out: to all of those here (and elsewhere) who complained that Macs were too expensive, it's now time to put up or shut up. Buy the new Mac Mini, or never speak of the purported high cost of Apple hardware again.

Yaz.

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[SilentChris]

"Please allow me to point one last thing out: to all of those here (and elsewhere) who complained that Macs were too expensive, it's now time to put up or shut up."

Ok, I'm game. Why should a nerd like myself (who likes to dig into and upgrade hardware) buy an iMac Mini when I can STILL get a more powerful Dell at the same price?

For the price of a Mini plus screen (let's say we go cheapo and connect a 15" CRT, keyboard and monitor -- final cost $600), I can get a small business Dell tower with a 15" flat screen monitor, Works suite (almost identical to iWork), twice as much memory, same combo drive, much faster processor and an 80 GB hard drive (the $499 Mac sells has a 40 GB, the higher-end has 80). I now have a faster, more capable PC for the same price.

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[Anonymous Coward]

You're missing the point. Microsoft Works absolutely blows (believe me, I know), and your Dell will probably require a paid anti-virus subscription, you still need to buy Photoshop Elements, and so on. In normal use, the processor will probably be about the same, and it won't run OS X.

So overall, you will pay more, and get to use Windows. :X

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[Bassman59]

"For the price of a Mini plus screen (let's say we go cheapo and connect a 15" CRT, keyboard and monitor -- final cost $600), I can get a small business Dell tower with a 15" flat screen monitor, Works suite (almost identical to iWork), twice as much memory, same combo drive, much faster processor and an 80 GB hard drive (the $499 Mac sells has a 40 GB, the higher-end has 80). I now have a faster, more capable PC for the same price.

yeah, but then you still can't run Mac OS X.

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[zpok]

If you're "only" a hardware freak, stick to whatever gives the biggest buzz for your buck, if however you're "also" a software freak, don't argue, just amaze yourself and buy the thing. All the stuff everybody's screaming about is included (apart from iWork).

If you don't like it, give to mother, sister or whoever, or sell on ebay. Or take apart and mod. Dig into something else for a change!

A real nerd would go for it, no?

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[Anonymous Coward]

I want one too. Who would have thought that it would take apple to get the ibm pc jr. right?

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[Moofie]

If Apple's OS doesn't appeal to you, don't buy it. If you're happy with your Dell, go that route.

Apple just destroyed all the economic objections to Mac ownership. They just. Don't. Exist. Anymore.

Some people wouldn't buy a Mac if it came with a free steveJob. (that's a blowjob from Steve Jobs) The rest of us are delighted with this new piece of hardware.

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[Anonymous Coward]

i was delighted to see this
500$ is nothing

but 256MB ram is nothing aswell especialy if you plan to do what mac is promoted for multimedia stuff
that tiny bit of ram isnt gonna cut it editing video

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[JamieF]

If all you want to do is look at your hardware and run benchmarks (a.k.a. 3D FPS games that bore anyone over 12 years old), that's great.

Watch the keynote and look at the software. Apple is not trying to make a Windows PC that looks nice. They're making software too, and leading the pack in many categories.

Most people actually want to accomplish tasks with their computers, and a few percentage points in hardware price/performance don't make nearly as much difference as better usability (which is measured in units of time to accomplish a specific task).

But, if you just like to spend your whole day messing around with your computer instead of getting anything done, by all means, avoid Macs.

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[JamieF]

>but 256MB ram is nothing

Too bad you can't upgrade it to 1GB.

Oh wait.

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[porcupine8]

You're missing the point. The previous post was directed at all of those people whose only reason for not getting a Mac was the price. Who admit the superiority of OS X, but won't shell out even for an $800 eMac. These people now have a $500 option (they can use their old PC monitor) that leaves them with no available arguments.

If you would still rather have Windows than OS X, that's a different story, and then the Dell is great, go for it. But for people who admit OS X is better, that Dell doesn't do much.

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[Glonoinha]

For the same reason I'm considering getting one : you want to futz around with OSX and all the software available in that environment, see if you like it or not, see how the other half lives, and most importantly see if you can get Linux running on it.

Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these things :-)

We already have half a dozen Dell Wintel boxes at home, one more isn't going to give you anything you don't already have - but a new machine architecture, new operating system, new ... well new everything - it's like watching two women kiss. You know you want it (as do I) but until now you haven't been able to justify the cost. You had no delusions of getting practical work done on it (ditto watching two women get it on) but damn it's just something you want check out.

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[SilentChris]

"But, if you just like to spend your whole day messing around with your computer instead of getting anything done, by all means, avoid Macs."

Very good point. Let me give you a recent experience with one of our Macs at work. Tried to get the thing to properly sync up with Active Directory so the user wouldn't need to enter his password every time he connected to one of the company servers (one of our few Windows boxes).

Enabled everything, set everything exactly as both MS and Apple recommend. Nothing. In fact, somehow enabling Active Directory support on this Mac (an older G4 with a fresh copy of 10.3.7) disabled Rendezvous, so the user could no longer print either. I had to disable AD support, reenable Rendezvous and manually set up the printer's IP.

My job (and his) is to get work done. How can we "get work done" if, after 8 hours of struggling, we had a Mac mostly dead to the network that couldn't print? I ended up having to restore from an image.

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[SnowDog74]

I feel this is just nonsense. There are lots of people who claim to be nerds because they split hairs over how many frames per second they can run Quake or Diablo or some other banal blow-shit-up game...

I happen to produce audiovisual content... Let me tell you, the average "nerd" can't tell the difference between 24fps film and a 60fps animation. There's a threshold around 22fps that the human eye is simply incapable of distinguishing the difference.

Another example... print... the human eye, because of the way the brain relies so heavily on interpolating visual input, cannot discern any quality differences of four-color images above 300dpi (or 1200dpi for black and white). It just goes beyond the threshold of human perception.

If some kid tells you they need more than 24fps for their Quake game, they're out of their fricking mind. And even then, the real nerd (like me, an internetwork security engineer) would come along and say... "Why do you want a machine that lacks security, lacks superuser/root administrative functionality, lacks a UNIX backend, and, perhaps most pertinent to any audiovisual endeavors... lacks ColorSync.

Then I could go on about the kind of piece of crap monitors your average gamer uses... I could nitpick on every little detail... but that would be beside the point.

The average user who thinks they need the expandable tower never expands it. The average user who thinks they need the best monitor never uses it for serious work, like prepress or video editing. The average user who thinks they need every application under the sun finds little more utility out of a computer, on a daily basis, than emails, web surfing and some word-processing, doing taxes and other mundane activities that don't require invoking the powers of Zeus... much less DDR RAM.

No, sir, for the average user, the Mac Mini is one of the most brilliant innovations to come along since the microcomputer itself.

Beyond that, I'll say you get what you pay for... PCs that try to emulate the Mac look and feel always seem like they were pieced together by former McDonald's employees... the ingredients slapped together, the raw materials are about as cheaply made as they come.

Look at the neck design of the last two generations of iMacs... If Dell tried to articulate a similar joint, it would probably require two or three tightening knobs, have all the mechanical ease of Rubik's Revenge (the 4x4x4 cube), the ergonomics of a Yugo, and the material strength of a cardboard box.

You get what you pay for.

I had a 2000 Nissan Altima that, at 70mph, was so noisy and sounded like it was going to rattle itself to pieces... compared to the 2003 Mercedes Benz C240 I have now. The first thing people notice is that there's not so much as a squeaky screw or any body panel that feels like it was built by Playskool... and once, when I had that thing up to 110mph, it didn't wake up my wife, who was sleeping in the passenger's seat.

Sure, I bet there's a guy who has twice as many speakers as my 10-speaker, 300-watt Bose factory system (say what you will about their speakers, but a die-hard Bose hater heard, and felt, the dynamic range in the C240 and he never spoke another ill word about Bose)... maybe he's got 3000 watts and 20 speakers... but his ears can only take so much.

With a decent head by Becker, 300 watt amp powering smaller, more intelligently placed drivers, I can push the sound pressure level above 105dB... the difference is, compared to that guy with the tricked out Honda Civic... there isn't so much as a screw rattling when I run earth-shattering bass... people don't hear unintelligible rumbles five blocks away (much less one block away)... even though the perceptible loudness in the car is about the same... and, most importantly, your ears aren't screaming for mercy... as loud as it is, you only feel enveloped by the sound, not like you're eardrums are going to bleed.

You get what you pay for... Yeah, the guy with the Civic *could* get

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[JamieF]

Well, that sucks. Still, outlying data points such as yours are just that.

Did you try to use the Keychain instead?

What did you eventually do? Roll back and give up for now, or did you find a solution?

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[SilentChris]

For now, given up. Keychain only does half the job (it can store local server passwords but not domain).

I'm not saying the Active Directory thing is all Apple's fault: it's half Microsoft's for making such a closed directory structure. On the other hand, Apple has been trying for several years to show how much more "compatible" with Windows machines OS X is. For the most part, it succeeded (Samba works very well, for example) but there are still some pretty grievous nicks. If they're expecting to sell the new Mac as a PC replacement, it's got to tie into existing PC stuff as much as possible.

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[Anonymous Coward]

apple still charges too much for cheap shit. I love how you can upgrade the ram to one gig on their site for 499 dollars

Re:iWant iWant iWant!

[afidel]

And nearly double the price......

Already is!

[Pfhor]

Called KeySpan, Express Remote.

http://www.apple.com/macmini/accessories.html

USB -> IR remote, been around for ages, i love it.

/usr/include/sys/mac/errno.h

[kzinti]

E_NOMEM not enough memory
E_NOTDIR not a directory
E_ACCES permission denied
E_NOENT no such entry
E_BOOM head exploded

***** 5-Star rating no more?

[Wiwi Jumbo]

The shuffle really needed at least a one line screen. Part of the beauty of iTunes and iPod (as I understand it, don't have one myself) is that the iPod can rate songs which then carry over to iTunes.

Seems like they could have put that in a vertical line down the front of the body... not entirely sure how you'd set the rating, but that's not my department. :-)

Re:***** 5-Star rating no more?

[Anonymous Coward]

I read it uses your ratings while determining what to play anyway.

How about market for used Mac? Killing

[Anonymous Coward]

I consider buying mini Mac having recently playing with older generation of Power Macs.
They sell on ebay around $300.
I hope now all of them will go drastically down over next couple weeks. It would be great time to pickup couple for webservers or second computers.
Let's the killing begin.

iPod shuffle no screen - read the tags out loud?

[jspivack]

I can imagine the Apple DJ, built on the Macintosh's text-reading ability. You could ask the iPod shuffle to "read" the song title, artist, and album at the beginning of each track, like a virtual DJ. And maybe you could even choose which voice to use...

ATI Radeon 9200 with 32MB

[glrotate]

I thought CoCo or Carbon or Aqua or whatever required 64MB?

Re:ATI Radeon 9200 with 32MB

[Anonymous Coward]

you're probably thinking of Quartz Extreme which required a 16MB video card

Re:ATI Radeon 9200 with 32MB

[WMD_88]

16MB, actually. Won't run *well* on that, though. The 32 should be fine.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[Anonymous Coward]

plus my girlfriend will have a easy-to-use machine that she can play with when I'm hogging my PC

You mean you don't order your woman to get under the desk and give you head whenever you're on the computer?

Pansy! You should.. ahh.. hold on... ahhhhhhh... hmm...good girl.

No free hands from Apple

[dogmatixpsych]

From the Mac mini website: "Keyboard, iPod mini, dock, hands, AirPort, Bluetooth and PC sold separately." Of course you have to see the page http://www.apple.com/macmini/design.html to appreciate the statement. With this and the not eating the new iPod, it looks like someone at Apple has a sense of humor.

Re:No free hands from Apple

[MasonMcD]

No free hands from Apple

Which is not a problem, since they ship the mac mini with a no-button mouse.

Of course, /. will complain about that "typically Apple" move...

Re:No free hands from Apple

[StandardDeviant]

Not to mention good taste in music, what with the references to Front 242's Headhunter I saw in the lower left of one of the Mac mini pages (I don't remember which one and the site is pretty slammed at the moment so I'm disinclined to go looking again).

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[mmkkbb]

apple did do that for the old mac clones. (in fact, many of them were apple motherboards or apple motherboard designs in the first place!) i'm sure the 3DO company did that for all the 3DO consoles that were released, and that nintendo did it for the panasonic gamecube.

Cool idea.

[Mad_Rain]

If I had the mod-points, you, Mr. (Or Ms.?) AC, would get some. That's another cool purpose of a box like this one.

No Line In Jack.

[dameron]

I can see this being an issue with VOIP.

-dameron

Re:No Line In Jack.

[Moofie]

All four people who are worried about that can get a USB headset or a Griffin iMic.

Or a bluetooth headset.

Mac Mini Analysis

[Dink Paisy]

The Mac Mini is aimed clearly at PC users looking to switch, but featurewise it is a disappointment.

It has a DVI video port (with VGA adapter included), and it comes with no monitor, mouse, or keyboard. Although Apple states on their website that "Mac Mini will take advantage of your two button USB mouse with scroll wheel", I think that decision is a mistake. Most PC users don't have USB peripherals, and will find the Mac Mini somewhat, err, nonfunctional upon purchase.

Hardware-wise, the specs are pretty low-end (what do you expect from a $500 Mac?). Comparing them to a local no-name store, here's what you get when comparing the cheapest options:

Price-the cheap PC is $450 Canadian, the cheap Mac is $500 US. The PC is significantly cheaper.

Processor-the Sempron 2200+ is slow, for a PC. It would quiver beside the 2.0+ GHz Powermac G5's, but it beats the crap out of the 1.25 (or even 1.4 GHz upgraded) Mac Mini. PC wins again.

Video-the Mac's discrete Radeon 9200 is an ok chip, the PC's integrated video isn't. Easy win for the Mac Mini.

Memory-they both come with 256 megs, so where's the contest? The Mac Mini is only upgradeable to 1 gigabyte. Slashdotters considering purchasing one may want to avoid it for this reason. Another victory for the PC.

Peripherals-the PC comes with a monitor, a mouse, a keyboard, and speakers. All cheap junk, but still a much better deal than the Mac, which doesn't come with any of that.

Optical drive-both come with CD burners, but the PC's doesn't read DVD's, and the Mac's does. Another point for the Mac Mini.

Cool factor-the Mac is much smaller and less of an eyesore. I don't know about volume, since neither manufacturer gives specs. This is a big plus for the Mac.

OS-Mac OS X versus no OS included. Victory for the Mac, although the PC will probably end up with Windows XP. Most users will prefer Windows since it is compatible with more programs and they are more likely to be familiar with it, although opinions can be very polarized about which is better. (=

Warranty-each offers a one year warranty. Victory for the Mac, since Apple service is much easier to get if you go outside of southern Ontario.

Connectability-the Mac offers a modem, IEEE1394 and DVI, as well as USB2 ports. The PC offers only VGA and USB2 for modern peripherals, although it has old style serial and parallel ports, and PS2 keyboard and mouse jacks that the Mac lacks. Both machines include 10/100 ethernet. I prefer the modern options, so the Mac gets a slight win.

Other specs such as hard drive and sound capabilities seem similar, so I won't use them for my conclusions.

To anyone who complains about the white box vs. brand name comparison, show me a white box Macintosh and I'll yield the point. But not much, since Dell offers a similar system (with more RAM plus Windows XP, but a Celeron processor and $499 Canadian price point).

Overall, the Mac just isn't a good deal compared to the PC. The price is significantly higher, and you still need to get a mouse and keyboard. Further, the limited memory expansion means that it isn't a good deal for hobbyists like the Slashdot crowd who would like to play with a Macintosh. I suspect sales will be decent, but that many customers will be unsatisfied when the performance is no better (or even worse) than their current PC, and they are forced to make a second trip to the store to shell out for a new mouse and keyboard. Although they may cash in on the current ipod craze, this machine is unlikely to win users for Apple in the longer term, or to stop Apple's market share from shrinking.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Anonymous Coward]

Processor-the Sempron 2200+ is slow, for a PC. It would quiver beside the 2.0+ GHz Powermac G5's, but it beats the crap out of the 1.25 (or even 1.4 GHz upgraded) Mac Mini. PC wins again.

You don't know much about PowerPCs, do you?

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[jrimmer]

You've only captured half the point. Yes, the MacMini's capable. Yes, it's not as fast or even as feature rich as a competetive PC. What about the other side of the coin? The person wanting a quiet, unobtrusive, low maintenance computer that they can stick in their living room or den? You won't match the MacMini's 'features' in the PC world in those respects.

While you've built the cheapest PC powerhouse for a corporate setting, you certainly haven't built a computer for the home or casual user.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Nephilium]

The Mac Mini is aimed clearly at PC users looking to switch, but featurewise it is a disappointment.

I think you've got the target audience wrong... I'm guessing that we're the target audience. Not the mainstream computer user; but rather, the geeks who keep computers working. I know that I wouldn't mind picking one of these up as a second box to play around with and learn OSX. I will say that you left out some information in your comparison:
1) OS Cost not factored in. Unless you're assuming that the Windows XP copy would be pirated (an understandable assumption)
2) The volume of the Mac Mini (that needs to be reversed, henceforth, it is the Mini-Mac) is listed in the description of the product (6.5" x 6.5" x 2"; 16.5 cm x 16.5 cm x 5.1 cm)

Pretty much, it's a cheap Mac that I'm interested in picking up... (especially since I need to learn how to fix my mom's new iBook G4...)
But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong...
Nephilium

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Angostura]

A couple of quick points on this.

1. Memory. Expandability to 1 Gig is going to be *more* than sufficient for most uses. 1 Have a 512Mb, 800MHz G4 and use it all the the time for movie editing and DVD burning as well as office apps, and never come across memory limitations, despite running horrible numbers of apps simultaneously. OS X's memory management ain't shoddy.

2. You forgot to factor in all the bundled iLife apps. iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and Garageband are very very decent, and I guess that the new iWork stuff is likely to be bundled too (didn't check). Finding something of similar quality on a PC is going to be costly.

3. OS X v Win XP. You're right - if the user is dedicated to Windows, then they should stick to the PC. But OS X is *the* reason to buy a Mac.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[GraWil]

[I] Processor-the Sempron 2200+ is slow, for a PC. It would quiver beside the 2.0+ GHz Powermac G5's, but it beats the crap out of the 1.25 (or even 1.4 GHz upgraded) Mac Mini. PC wins again. [/I]

You quote [I]performance[/I] throughout your arguments... have you ever checked the performance of a spyware laden PC? My father has a high-speed connection at home. He writes e-mails, downloads photos/videos from his digital camera, and composes the occasional word document. What sort of [I]performace[/I] do you think he needs?

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[rainman_bc]

Most PC users don't have USB peripherals

WTF??? Anyone who's bought an optical mouse in the last four years has a USB mouse.

I'll give you keyboard - USB keyboards are a little more rare, but I'd wager: 1) Anyone with a PS2 Mouse with a ball has had it die on the them and has been forced to buy a new mouse and 2) Most computer users today have bought their computer in the last four years.

I decree you are talking out your ass.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[gstoddart]

Well, sure. Comparing the price of a pre-configured Mac which is geared to give useable performance to a lot of people compared to a white-box PC is kinds cute.

But you're comparing Apples to lemons here. Literally.

Anyone buying this isn't looking for things like the frames/sec they'll get on their video card, the max RAM they can install, or the last few FLOPS they'll get from the chip speed.

The people who will be buying this will be those people who have always bought Macs -- those who just want to turn it on and use it, and will never ever care about specs.

Only now even more people will be able to afford yummy Mac goodness. For a student or middle-aged parents who doesn't need to be 3l337, this is now price competitive with Windows box. Truthfully, it's very competitive.

I've been drooling over the thought of a Mac for quite a while, but they cost way more than I would typically spend on a computer. At this price point, the probability of me buying a Mac has gone up considerably.

Here's a news-flash --- they're not selling this to the Slashdot crowd. They also don't target sub-compacts at NASCAR teams.

If you don't think there's a lot of people on the brink of buying a new Windows box that are going to suddenly buy one of these, you're not clueing in on who their market actually is.

I for one atually do think this will win some new Apple users over Windows users.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Moofie]

OK, so in your laundry list bake-off, the PC comes out ahead in four categories.

And the Mac is inferior.

Mmmm...okay. Whatever. Guess the market will decide, huh. I've got my Powerbook, and I can't understand why anybody would tolerate a white-box Windows POS anymore.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Anonymous Coward]

You are way out in left field on this analysis.

The imac mini is aimed a 2 groups: switchers and brand new users. The imac mini will be used to upsell the new users to imac g5's. And switchers will be able to get a imac for $500 bucks.

You fail to account for apple's "apple store" marketing strategy. Apple has known for 2 years now that they get incredible amounts of foot traffic in those stores, but they have been unable to convert a large percentage of that traffic into imac purchases. This $500 box will go along way to doing that.

I expect to see tons of these imacs sold along with KVM sitches (to connect legacy keyboards, mice and monitors) and cheapo 15 inch LCD monitors (I'm surprised apple didn't come out with one today).

You also fail to account for the superior ilife software package that comes with the imac along with the superior unix based (virus and spyware free) OS X.

The imac mini will sell millions of units. Kids across the country will finally be able to talk their parents into buying them an imac for $500.

You spend too much time arguing that since there is no keyboard or mouse then its a bad move. Wrong. People just dont think that way. Most will chuck down the extra $60 bucks for the apple keyboard and mouse without even thinking about it. Others will buy even cheaper ones at their local compusa or use their old ones (with a kvm switch if needed).

Do not underestimate this machine. Its no powerhouse G5, but its more than enough to do internet, email, itunes and digital photos.

Non techie consumers are realizing that if you want a game machine, then by a ps2 or xbox. If you want a computer, then buy the cheapest thing that lets you do the most. The iMac mini running OS X and bundled with iLife is by far the better value.

I havent evened talked about unix and java developers who are going to jump at a $500 unix box. Imagine bringing this tiny thing back and forth to work where you hook it up to a KVM switch and plop the imac mini right on top of your windows bix sitting under the desk.

How about the folks who will buy just to have a second computer and view it as a plus that its an imac.

Mark my words, this thing is going to sell like hotcakes.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Dink Paisy]

If you really edit movies regularly, you should invest in some more memory. It will save you a lot of time. My media creation requirements are limited to still photographs, and I still find less than one gigabyte to be a huge and time-consuming pain. I've run Photoshop and Visual Studio together with as little as 20 megabytes of memory (no, really, I did), and these programs degrade gracefully in performance, but they really do much better with more memory.

The iLife apps are nice, no doubt. They are an advantage that Apple has over a PC. Still, the base model Mini Mac doesn't include a DVD burner. The whitebox PC doesn't even include a DVD reader. Combine that with the low memory, and media creation options are limited. The iWork stuff isn't bundled; it is to compete with Microsoft Office, and will cost you a pretty penny.

There are two big reasons to stick with Windows. One is that people are more likely to be familiar with it. Since this machine is aimed at Windows users, this will be a factor to people buying it. The second reason is for all that stupid junk you can download and run. I'm sure you don't do that; I don't either. Most of the target audience for this machine do download all sorts of crap and just expect it to work (or at least to install).

There are a number of nice operating systems out there, including OS X, Solaris and IRIX. The market seems to have chosen Windows and Linux, though. Running something else is a liability, not an asset, regardless of how nice the operating system is.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[jasonditz]

The RAM thing is my only concern. The RAM upgrade to 1 GB (1 chip since there's only 1 slot) is so prohibitively expensive that you might as well say 512 is the limit... I still think I want one, but I'm not going to be an early adopter like I was with the $200 Lindows PC (which, incidentally, I'm still using as my main work system).

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[cayenne8]

"I'll give you keyboard - USB keyboards are a little more rare, but I'd wager: 1) Anyone with a PS2 Mouse with a ball has had it die on the them and has been forced to buy a new mouse and 2) Most computer users today have bought their computer in the last four years."

Hmm...well, not exactly. I've got about 4 PC's...2 at home, two at work. Only one at work came with USB keyboards and mouse...and the USB mouse I got wouldn't work...so plugged in a PS/2 one. The latest box I built is for a media box..Athlon, ASUS MB..etc. I used non-usb keyboard and mouse for that too.

Actually, the first USB mouse I'd ever really used was on the used iBook I recently bought.

Anyway, I've got lots of computers..many older Sun's, SGI's...etc. But, my PC's so far...well, truthfully, I've never really used the USB ports on them for anything yet....and I imagine I'm not that uncommon in that respect...

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Anonymous Coward]

I have the strangest feeling of déjà vu. Oh yeah:

"At an invitation only event Apple has released their new MP3 player called the iPod. iPod is the size of a deck of cards. 2.4" wide by 4" tall by .78" thick 6.5 ounces. 5 GB HDD, 10 hr battery life, charged via FireWire. Works as a firewire drive as well. Works in conjunctions with iTunes 2...". No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

'Nuff said.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right that they probably have a USB mouse if they bought a mouse, but most people don't buy just a mouse. They buy an entire computer. We sell seven different brands of computers here, and not a one comes with a USB mouse. They all come with a PS/2 style mouse. That's what most people have. After all, if you're selling a computer, wouldn't you use the hardware that is cheaper, more reliable, and simply better? USB just isn't as good as PS/2 for real-time use.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[mindstrm]

Go buy 3rd party ram, and put it in yourself?

Or, if this particular model has some issues with user serviceability (someone posted that the ram wasn't user accessible within warrantee), take said 3rd party ram to your nearest apple authorized service center and pay them $20 to put it in for you, and thus maintain your warrantee status?

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Angostura]

Well, it's kind of you to be concerned, but looking at my memory usage while using iMovie, I'm not memory constrained thanks.

You completely misunderstand the point about Windows. This is a machine for people who are sick of Windows and want an entré into the Mac world, but have previously been put off by the price. People who are not sick of Windows will stick with a Windows box as you point out.

Anyone who believes that 'The market seems to have chosen Windows and Linux, though. Running something else is a liability, not an asset, regardless of how nice the operating system is.' Wouldn't be interested in this box even if it cost $1 and had a G5, surely?

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[gamgee5273]

We are not the audience. We may be a secondary consideration, but we are not the audience. They are trying to focus on people who walk into the stores. The computer, and box, weigh around three pounds. I can go into the Apple Store at a local mall, put down my credit card, and walk around with a new computer in my shipping bag while I go to other stores.

As a secondary consideration, you are right: Those of us who have never had the chance to play around with a Mac might be tempted. I would argue, though, that those folks can get a cheap G4 PowerMac on eBay that will give them loads more expansion.

This computer is for all of the folks we know who aren't saavy with IT...

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Anonymous Coward]

> The Mac Mini is only upgradeable to 1 gigabyte.

Upgradeable according to some definitions of upgradeable. I just confirmed with the manager of my local Apple Store that the RAM in the Mini is not end-user or reseller upgradeable. You have to ship it to Apple repair to get them to add the RAM. I was planning on buying 10 of these for work, but the idea that we'll have to do without them for a few weeks, if we like them, won't fly.

Apple is so yet once again close to making something the public can use, but once again they're failing on a minor point. Add-in no user upgradeable or repairable DVD and hard drives, and my point is made even stronger.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[mhbtr]

You repeatedly make the comment about the mini not having a keyboard nor a mouse, yet a combination keyboard and mouse cost as little as $25. Then you discuss things like: 1. PC does not come with OS. 2. PC does not come with DVD reader, 3. PC does not come with X Y and Z. I think for the $25 you get the keyboard and mouse with, and then $50 for the cheap monitor you get with the PC, you still end up with a MUCH better deal with the Mac.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[rainman_bc]

So according to your definition then, because you don't have a usb mouse, most users don't have a usb mouse? That's a bit absurd isn't it?

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Anonymous Coward]

Some people shy away from USB peripherals for a reason - gaming.

Using the USB ports for your peripherals taxes the system's processor.

The standard mouse/keyboard ports are purely hardware controlled.

Using them instead of USB alternatives can allow higher framerates in gaming.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[mal3]

Will an Apple Store actually do that for you? Will any old 1 GB DDR 2700 work?

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[soft_guy]

Apple's market share, before the Mac mini was released, was growing. Therefore the comment about it failing to stop Apple's marketshare from shrinking makes no sense. (Its very low right now, if it shrank, it would be zero. Again, makes no sense unless you think Apple's going out of business.)

Second, you aren't forced to make a "second trip" to the store. Most stores will sell you a keyboard and mouse at the same time as a Mac Mini. They don't force you to leave the store after you buy the computer and then come back to buy a mouse and keyboard.

Plus, for those of us who like particular mice, keyboards (other than the one bundled with the computers we buy) buying a machine without a mouse and keyboard is nice because we aren't forced to pay for input devices we aren't going to use.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[jimbolaya]

"(that needs to be reversed, henceforth, it is the Mini-Mac)"

For shame! You should have said, "...henceforth, I shall call it Mini Mac!"

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, in answer to your first question. Apple Stores do this for $30, I think. Other stores can do it as well (probably cheaper), as long as they're Apple Authorized. Yes, third party RAM works, but I don't know what kind. That's one good reason to go through an Authorized Reseller anyway. It's definitely a way to get much cheaper RAM.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[myov]

Most PC users don't have USB peripherals

Where have you been hiding? Ignoring the obvious (printer/scanner/etc which are all usb now), most of the machines I've used in the last year ship with a usb keyboard and/or mouse. Move them over, or use the savings to buy a KVM.
If not, spend $20 on a usb keyboard&mouse.

On to the other points...
Factor in the overhead of the OS. OS X might be a bit of a ram pig, but I'm running it on an early G3 (dating back to '98 or so). Will XP run well on a similar machine?

Processor... beats the crap out of the Mac Mini
My PC is twice the clock speed of my powerbook. Which one feels slower? It's not the mac.
It's not spyware either, although that would also limit the speed of the PC.

Processor comparisons are really only valid when compared to the same family.

The Mac Mini is only upgradeable to 1 gigabyte.

Only? If you need more than a gig, the mini isn't for you.
I *hammer* my powerbook (also with a 1 gig limit), and it really doesn't bother me.

OS-Mac OS X versus no OS included.
A big point right there. In some cases, I've had Windows + Office more than double the cost of the machine. Apple includes the OS and iLife.

Dell Canada's $499 system is:
Intel® Celeron® D Processor 320 (2.40 GHz, 533 FSB, 256 KB L2 cache)
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition
40GB Ultra ATA/100 7200RPM Hard Drive
17 in (16 in viewable,.27dp) E773c CRT Monitor
Single Drive: 48x CD-RW Drive

Add XP Pro (to make it a fair comparison: XP Home is a stripped down version, OS X isn't), a combo drive, remove the monitor, and add a package equivilent to the new iLife, ignore the money you need to spend for virus/spyware protection and you'll be fairly similar. Look at TCO, and there's a reason I call Windows job security.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[BitchKapoor]

At the consumer level, RAM is actually less of an issue for video editing than still photography. This is due to a combination of two factors. First, individual MiniDV video frames are only 720x480, whereas even a "lowly" 2-megapixel images are 1600x1200; moreover, when editing, you don't need to keep the videos in memory, just a few little thumbnails. Second, when compiling video projects, you are ultimately limited by your hard drive access rate -- MiniDV is around 13GB/hour, so on any decent-size project, there's no way you're going to have all your clips cached in RAM, even with 8GB. Note that unlike the ever-increasing megapixels of digital still cameras, MiniDV is a fixed standard; its resolution and data rate aren't going to change in the next couple of years -- what you'll see instead is cheaper cameras, smaller cameras (which suck, imo), better picture quality, and more footage filling up your hard drives.

To take a real-world example, my brother does a lot of video editing. He has an Athlon XP 2500+ with 512MB RAM and 240GB hard drive space. RAM is never an issue for him, but he's always running out of hard drive space. On the other hand, his computer started getting slow and swapping to disk when I was editing a large picture in PhotoShop, even though it only took a relatively miniscule 78MB as a PSD file on disk (4100x2400, i.e., ~10MP).

In conclusion, I don't think the 1GB RAM limit on the Mac Mini would hamper consumer-level video editing. The 40/80GB hard drives, which are probably not the fastest, being 2.5" notebook drives, are a more serious concern. An external hard drive would take care of the space issue, but I'm not sure about the performance for video editing tasks.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Slack3r78]

Apple's market share, before the Mac mini was released, was growing. Therefore the comment about it failing to stop Apple's marketshare from shrinking makes no sense. (Its very low right now, if it shrank, it would be zero. Again, makes no sense unless you think Apple's going out of business.)

Incorrect. Apple's sales and revenues were increasing, but at a lesser rate than the rest of the industry. Therefore, their overall market share was most certainly shrinking.

Second, you aren't forced to make a "second trip" to the store. Most stores will sell you a keyboard and mouse at the same time as a Mac Mini. They don't force you to leave the store after you buy the computer and then come back to buy a mouse and keyboard.

This wouldn't bother me personally if it weren't for the fact that the cheapest KB/Mouse combo Apple is offering with the Mac mini is $58. Over 10% of the cost of the entire unit for a basic input peripheral if someone needs it? Seems a bit steep to me. Fortunately, I have a USB KVM already, so this won't be affecting my decision to pick one of these up within the next few months, but it'd certainly suck for the potential switcher to get home and find out their existing KB/Mouse are PS/2.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Gumph]

why do people think a consumer level PC needs 1Gb of RAM??? I have had both PCs and Macs and only ever had 512MB of RAM and been able to do everything I wanted quite comfortably - video editing, mp3 encoding, Avi - mpg encoding, cd/dvd burning etc etc?
We have SQL servers at work with 640Mb that serve out 100 concurrent users so I am thinking 512Mb is enough for 1 user at home.
Just because RAM is as cheap as chips doesn't mean you need to max the box out all the time!

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you know they're not selling this to a slashdot crowd? Newsflash? Well heres some insight, the idea is to market it at everyone. Which is why there are two options, later on there may be even more.

Telling us who will buy the item isn't particularly informative or insightful. You yourself say it makes it more probable that you will buy a mac. Well, thats kind of a contradiction. Aren't you part of the slashdot crowd? Even saying if you buy a mac and it isn't one of these, it clearly DOES affect the slashdot crowd. Its making it more likely you will buy a mac, don't you think others might feel the same way? Think about it.

Like most things slashdotters are interested in technology. While they might not be as interested in a lower spec mac, when the price is right, it becomes appealing, if its functional, reliable and cheap, it makes for a nice buy. Have you seen how small it is? That itself makes it interesting to some people.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[jasonditz]

They don't need it now... its just a question of upgradability.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[bhtooefr]

Don't take this wrong, but...

BBcode doesn't work on Slash. <i> and </i> are what you want.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it a bit early to proclaim the MacMini is "low maintenance"? At least wait until somebody owns one.

Re:Mac Mini Analysis

[AutumnLeaf]

Good point about the shopping mall experience. I'm an ex-apple employee and still use a mac at home. I've walked into the local Apple store several times and I've always felt a little put off by the fact that aside from an iPod or some accessory, I can't walk out with anything for less than $1000.00, which puts it far beyond the reach of impulse-buy or 'extravagent gift' in my eyes. But $500.00. Not bad.

I also own a wind-tunnel system. Dual 1 gig G4's that I had to spend $300.00 to quiet down to barely acceptable levels.

I'm seriously considering picking one of these bad-boys up.

All Macs Come with an OS

[Dragonfly]

So yes, $499 includes the latest version of Mac OS X.

As a side note, all Apple servers include a copy of OS X Server UNLIMITED Client. Factor that in every time you compare a Windows Server to an XServe!

Re:All Macs Come with an OS

[larkost]

You are right in that the XServes come with MacOS X Server, but a number of the models (used to be called cluster nodes) come with only the 10-Client version of 'Server. This does not limit them with regards to web serving (like Windows Server license does) but instead limit the number of mail, file serving, netboot, etc clients that can connect. And the $500 difference to the unlimited client is not that big when you compare it to Microsoft's licensing costs.

Re:All Macs Come with an OS

[Anonymous Coward]

Incorrect. All apple servers come with a copy of OS X Server 10 Client. Unlimited Client costs more.

Re:All Macs Come with an OS

[wildchild07770]

So I take it this guy is trying to show how good apple servers can be. When a little farther back in this thread a person mentioned that the apple store had been /.ed. If a major computer manufacturers website can be taken down be a mere /. smash I doubt I want to buy their servers.

Re:All Macs Come with an OS

[Tobias Luetke]

Thats pathetic, Macworld is today, There are 10 million ipod owners out there who can't wait to afford other apple products; The blogspace is going nuts over the announcements at the same time.
Slashdot probably doesn't even cause a percent of the traffic the apple store is getting today.

Apple will be huge. It has been decided today.

Re:All Macs Come with an OS

[Barlo_Mung_42]

"All Macs Come with an OS"
But I just want to run Linux on it. Is there any way to get a refund or am I stuck paying the Apple tax?

Re:All Macs Come with an OS

[Anonymous Coward]

They will inform you that the OS is free at that point. Or free with a system if you try and push it and get a copy of OS X 10.4.

Besides, why would you want to run Linux on it? OS X is far superior to Linux, and you sloppy-focus people can just fuck off.

Re:All Macs Come with an OS

[k_187]

yes, and those limits are only to the number of concurrent users. You can make as many as you want, its just that only 10 can be conncected at the same time.

Re:All Macs Come with an OS

[Anonymous Coward]

Will Apple upgrade mini mac OS X to Tiger when its released

Re:All Macs Come with an OS

[Anonymous Coward]

I expect mac mini users will have the privilege of buying tiger on CD to upgrade their systems. Apple hasn't made a habit of freely offering whole version OS upgrades to existing customers.

Not an idiot

[kzinti]

Reading the iPod Shuffle web site:

Random is the New Order

Welcome to a life less orderly. As official soundtrack to the random revolution, the iPod Shuffle Songs setting takes you on a unique journey through your music collection -- you never know what's around the next tune. Meet your new ride. More roadster than Rolls, iPod shuffle rejects routine by serving up your favorite songs in a different order every time. Just plug iPod shuffle into your computer's USB port, let iTunes Autofill it with up to 240 songs(1) and get a new experience with every connection. The trail you run every day looks different with an iPod shuffle. Daily gridlock feels less mundane when you don't know what song will play next. iPod shuffle adds musical spontaneity to your life. Lose control. Love it.

...left me wondering the same thing: Can you turn it off, or is play always random?

Now I'm wondering whether you can skip from album to album if you want to. Maybe by double-clicking the + button?

Re:Not an idiot

[Selfbain]

They don't exactly go out of their way to point it out but this is what I noticed right after I posted the first time:

With Play in Order mode, you manage the music. If things take a turn for the predictable, never fear. Turn iPod shuffle over, flip the slider to Shuffle and mix on the go.

Re:Not an idiot

[droleary]

Now I'm wondering whether you can skip from album to album if you want to. Maybe by double-clicking the + button?

Doesn't seem likely. I doubt it has any concept of "album" or deals with ID3 tags at all. In one mode it just plays them in the order they were written, in the other, it just picks randomly what to play next.

Re:Not an idiot

[kzinti]

You're probably right, but I'll speculate, anyway... even if the Shuffle doesn't know about mp3 tags (and it probably doesn't - it can't display any of them), it could still have an "album" concept, simply by putting different albums into different folders within its filesystem. Itunes, which does know about albums, builds that filesystem, so it could do the sorting, and let the iPod Shuffle jump from folder to folder when you hit the right key combination.

In-dash mp3 players do exactly this. I put one in my wife's van, one that lets you jump from folder to folder within the CDROM by clicking a button on the front panel. By organizing songs into folders one per album, you can jump from album to album using the folder button.

I understand that you have to sacrifice some things for a player as small an inexpensive as the Shuffle. However, its users shouldn't have to sacrifice more than necessary.

Re:Not an idiot

[justMichael]

...left me wondering the same thing: Can you turn it off, or is play always random?

"With Play in Order mode, you manage the music. If things take a turn for the predictable, never fear. Turn iPod shuffle over, flip the slider to Shuffle and mix on the go."

From the "DJ Your Day paragraph" on the iPod Shuffle page

Mac Mini == New Commodore 64?

[LWATCDR]

Frankly at this price point it could be the New Commodre 64. The computer that every kid has. Unless you had an Atari. Will games soon follow. And what about schools? if they have old keyboards and monitors they could "upgrade" the the mac mini for cheap. Wonder what apple will sell them to schools for? Not to mention the lack of spyware, virus, and other nasties floating around your average school computer lab.

Re:Mac Mini == New Commodore 64?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was thinking exactly the same thing Re: the C64. If these ever hit a $399 price point, you'll probably see that happen.

Re:Mac Mini == New Commodore 64?

[rho]

I didn't think of that, but it could come true. The Mac Mini is perfect for schools.

I immediately thought, "this is perfect for corporate needs." With the Xserve hardware, Xsan, their work in adopting and adapting Free software for intrusion detection and security, once you add in an inexpensive client, you've got a (non-partisan) IT department's dream.

Easy to use Unix + cheap hardware? Genius.

Re:Mac Mini == New Commodore 64?

[LWATCDR]

The one downside I see is the lack of support for Open Office running native on the Mac Just imagine Apple throwing some if it's ease of use and graphic desgin Voodoo into OpenOffice.
Yes this would be nice for corporate needs except for the lack of and I really hate to say this. Visual Basic.
Way to many interal programs are writen in Visual Basic. Browser centric systems can help with this but how many of those are IE bound? Yea I know that is dumb but I see it way too often.
I do have suggestions for the next Mac mini. Or even beter a Mac Media center. How about video in, , Video out, Maybe even a tuner, IR, a cute front display, RCA audio out...
All in all good show Apple. I have not been this excited since I got my Amiga 1000.

Re:Mac Mini == New Commodore 64?

[soft_guy]

I had an Atari 800 and so did most of my friends. We used to have Commodore 64 vs. Atari 8 bit arguments that make Mac vs. PC look like a tea party.

Re:Mac Mini == New Commodore 64?

[soft_guy]

You can run Open Office on Panther using the X11 extension (free). You can run the Gimp this way too.

For rapid, internal development, Cocoa beats the hell out of Visual Basic. For web apps, Web Objects freaking rocks.

Re:Mac Mini == New Commodore 64?

[LWATCDR]

"For rapid, internal development, Cocoa beats the hell out of Visual Basic. For web apps, Web Objects freaking rocks."

But that does you no good for existing apps.
Unless you are starting from zero odds are you already have a bunch of stuff already working. Not to mention that you will probably have to run some windows boxes at the same time. No what we need is an opensource cross platform replacment for Visual Basic.

Re:Mac Mini == New Commodore 64?

[lowmagnet]

I didn't have a C=64, you insensitive clod! (I had an Atari 800XL)

*sigh*, I miss that computer

Re:Mac Mini == New Commodore 64?

[LWATCDR]

Yea I rember those. I like both but I had a Commodore 64. The Atari was every bit as good but tended to cost more.
Now the Amiga VS ST wars where amusing. I still say the Amiga was a better system than the Atari ST and both beat the daylights out of the PC of the day. Tis a sad thing... The best system does not always win.

Mac mini or MiniMac?

[dogmatixpsych]

It won't be long before these are called MiniMacs. They already come in cardboard boxes. Thanksfully they are low in calories though.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[martin_b1sh0p]

Actually it does NOT come with a keyboard and mouse....you have to supply your own. I've never owned one either, but I'm thinking this will look great next to my linux box.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[mstra]

Hopefully, it'll work with the PS/2 keyboards and mice that I've got lying around, if not then I suppose that I'll be shelling out for USB ones but that's no great loss.

Nope. Only USB on the Mac Mini. But still, hey, that's a cheap thrill.

Shuttle battery?

[Tzinger]

The iPod shuttle looks neat and I notice that you can add a battery pack with 2 AAA batteries. I wonder if the rechargeable battery can be replaced. Otherwise this device will probably have to be replaced in 12-20 months.

I would have never believed

[fermion]

The mini looks great. Built in blue tooth. Built in airport. Included productivity apps. Combo drive. Really better than anything available a the price point.

I am worried about one thing. Years ago when they started shipping cheap laptops, performanced suffered greatly. The cheaper hardware could not match the quality and speed one had come to expect from apple. I probably won't buy one of these until the third gen.

What I do hope for is these to start appearing in schools. I want a lab in which I can have student log into an account with *nix like controls over applications and net access. Our admin cannot seem to do this with XP.

And the new ipod is a good as anything I have seen. Extremely competative price and storage capacity. It might bring me back to the flash based player. Certainly easier to carry for exersise.

Re:I would have never believed

[adzoox]

"Built in blue tooth. Built in airport."

Umm - built in for an extra $139 you mean.

These don't come standard. Neither does it come with a keyboard or mouse or monitor.

DUH

[toby]

I'm begining to get the feeling that Steve Jobs might be trying to reposition Apple.

That's why it was obvious the rumours were true... Hasn't everyone figured out that Jobs is not a stupid man?

Re:DUH

[Anonymous Coward]

No, some people live in the basement. And others just think like they do.

Congratulations!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

You are the 800th person to post this amazing observation! May there be 800 more! I can't read it enough!

Why not 8 weeks earlier?

[porksickle]

Too bad Apple decided to release the iPod Shuffle after Christmas. They would have ruled holiday sales for flash-based players at that price point. I know I would have at least picked up one or two as gifts...

Mac Mini Linux Cluster

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't wait to get 20 of these things running in a cluster, with linux.

I'll be a Charles

[{tele}machus_*1]

Yeah, I'll be buying the Mac Mini and the Shuffle. Apple has finally hit my market. I've been lusting after Garageband since its release. Now I have an affordable way to start using this great program.

As for the Shuffle, I use iTunes, and I would like to be able to transport AAC tunes, but I cannot justify plunking down $300 for a 20gb player (ditto for a $250 player with 16 fewer gb). I also don't feel the need for bringing "3,000 songs" with me wherever I go. I'd rather have a lower cost, smaller memory player, even if I keep switching music files to keep the selection fresh. The Shuffle is that player!

Where are the haters? Don't drink the Coolaid!

[Matt Clare]

I have a PowerBook, I really like OSX - but I've tried not to Drink the Coolaid. So, can the Mac haters point out what the Apple brand is still missing (other than market share)?

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[nosaj72]

The online apple store is seriously slashdotted at the moment. I gave up and just called them (1800myapple) order by ipod shuffle 1 gig, no waiting....

Except for the waiting for it to arrive......

still not here yet........

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[kronin]

No, it doesn't come with a keyboard and mouse.

No New PBs?

[MBCook]

I must say, very cool stuff. I'm not big on the iPod Shuffle, but for $99 it's not bad. But it doesn't matter since I've got a 4th gen iPod. I LOVE that new little Mac.

That said, where are the PBs? I'm not expecting a G5 or antyhing, but I thought they would bump the speed (say to 1.6667 from 1.5) and the HD (to 100gb and 5400rpm) and add bluetooth 2.0 and such. Thinksecret said it was confirmed. I've been waiting for this show to buy a new powerbook, where are they?

Here PB, PB, PB...

Re:No New PBs?

[Seanasy]

I'm guessing that the PB upgrades that ThinkSecret predicted are coming but they didn't announce them during the keynote because they would have been anti-climactic. The PB line is overdue for a major overhaul but they're waiting for G5 PBs. An announcement during the keynote of PB speed bumps would have underlined the fact the the G5 PBs aren't here yet.

Perennial red herring, you mean

[ianscot]

they've essentially nipped that perennial argument in the bud.

"In the bud"? More like years after it went to seed. How long has it been since Mac OS had any limitation on the use of two-button mice?

I agree, they threw that line in there to address it with the people who weren't paying attention. But the "argument" here hasn't been a meaningful point since... I can't think when... How old is the Kensington Turbomouse line?

Re:Perennial red herring, you mean

[Moofie]

I had a Kensington four-button mouse ten years ago. It daisy chained into my ADB CH FlightStick Pro. Now THAT is a fine input device.

Re:Perennial red herring, you mean

[Alan Partridge]

Something I've wondered for a while is whether it might be possible to use a set of high quality rudder pedals to help drive the Mac UI - it seems to me that widow scrolling and Exposé functions might be nicely done with one's feet.

USB Overdrive, anyone?

Re:Perennial red herring, you mean

[Moofie]

Interesting idea. No reason you shoudlnt' be able to. That Griffin USB knobby-thing would be similar...

iPod Shuffle... do not eat!

[asliarun]

Noticed on the iPod Shuffle site:-
"1. Music capacity is based on 4 minutes per song and 128Kbps AAC encoding.
2. Do not eat iPod shuffle.
3. Rechargeable batteries h..."

Do not EAT iPod shuffle??!!

Hey, why not? After all, an Apple a day keeps the doctor away, right?

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[mikeplokta]

It's £339 including VAT. At today's exchange rates, US$499 + 17.5% is £311, so they're not screwing us too badly.

Many people only need word processing

[soullessbastard]

Disclaimer: I am a developer of OpenOffice.org for Mac OS X and a founder of the NeoOffice project

No, the new iWork is definitely not a replacement for the old AppleWorks/ClarisWorks suite. AppleWorks really did try to do a "kitchen sink" approach as well as give you the flexibilty to embed one type of document in another. I really suspect their decision to focus on word processing is very good from a market driven perspective.

Most people tend to want to be able to write simple letters on their computer. TextEdit could do this, of course, and for simple tasks I do know people who use it. The next class of users is advanced home and entry-level business personnel. Think of the kind of people that want to make a flyer advertising a store event or the people making a newsletter for their little league. These are the exact target audience for Pages.

Pages comes with 40 templates that are customizable in the sense you can add in your own graphics easily to creat new templates (I think...). This makes it easy to create newsletters, corporate letterhead, and the like. The transparency allows for easy watermarking of documents.

Pages will also probably be sufficient for opening most Word documents generated by these similar types of users, home or small business users who have Word pre-installed on their Windows box and use the DOC format to e-mail their newsletters as attachments. In that respect it's great to have a similar pre-installed option available on the Mac that can support that market segment.

Whether they will target spreadsheets and database connectivity in the future is still up for speculation. After all, even Claris killed its own standalone spreadsheet application (Resolve) by selling it off to C&G. For users who want an integrated suite full featured spreadsheets, charting, macros, database connectivity and the like, there's only a few remainingplayers in the Mac market: Microsoft Office, NeoOffice/J (OpenOffice.org, but without the X11), ThinkFree, and Mariner. I don't think Apple's about to compete with Microsoft Office anytime soon as they use Office to help sell the platform. The death of AppleWorks now leaves us open source guys as one of the remaining strongest office suite competitors on the platform.

ed

Re:Many people only need word processing

[tyrione]

You are aware that some of the developers who wrote Lighthouse Design's Office Suite of products are responsible for Keynote and Pages, right?

Expect these apps and more to creep in and expand in capabilities rather rapidly.

All memorable NeXT applications were never the Kitchen Sink. They believed in Services and leveraging Cocoa from the Developer Community to grow for everyone.

Re:Many people only need word processing

[alset_tech]

The death of AppleWorks now leaves us open source guys as one of the remaining strongest office suite competitors on the platform.

AppleWorks didn't die. If you check the Mac mini page, it ships pre-installed. AppleWorks and iWork are independent (at least, for now). I was relieved when I noticed that, because I thought AppleWorks would be EOLed and there would be no Apple spreadsheet software. Guess we were both wrong.

Won't get it until full featured

[wondafucka]

I mean, if I can't eat it, what good is it for

I shit you not, there is a disclaimer (Do not eat iPod Shuffle)

http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/

Re:Won't get it until full featured

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, if I can't eat it, what good is it for Many slashdotters will think you are talking about a woman. Always DENIED *grin*

Re:Won't get it until full featured

[Anonymous Coward]

The Scariest thing about that Disclaimer is that someone most likely DID eat one, hence them having that section of the disclaimer.

Damn you, Apple!

[tattoi.nobori]

..and your irresistibly sexy, hitherto-unknown and now absolutely essential toys, too!

*sigh* And here I was trying so hard to save some money this semester...

In other news: iSlashdot...

[tomoose]

...the new marketing tool for everything Apple.

not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[Heisenbug]

OK, all you folks who are about to get your first Mac -- yes, do it, it's worth it. But listen, OS X just won't be happy with 256MB of RAM. Throw in another $75 and get 512.

Apple loves overcharging for ram. I don't know why, and it bugs me, so normally I upgrade from a third party right after I get a new computer. That isn't an option here, so just bite the bullet and do it. Otherwise, we're all going to be back here in a month complaining about how slow the mini is, and no one wants that.

Re:not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it use standard memory? Meaning, can I canibalize my WinXP Athlon box and use the memory in the mini?

Re:not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[aralin]

I have just one question, will it play World of Warcraft?

Re:not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[Anonymous Coward]

>>Does it use standard memory?

Yes, DDR333 SDRAM.

Re:not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[CerebusUS]

$75 isn't bad for a 512MB stick (I just bought a kit of two of them for $154)

Now $475 for 1GB? That's a bit steep.

Re:not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[kuwan]

Yep

Here's the WoW system requirements:

Mac® System OS X 10.3.5 OS:
933 MHz or higher G4 or G5 processor
512 MB RAM or higher; DDR RAM recommended
ATI or NVIDIA video hardware with 32 MB VRAM or more
4 GB or more of available hard drive space
MacOS X 10.3.5 or newer
56k or higher modem with an Internet connection

Since the cheapest Mac Mini has a 1.25 GHz processor and ATI Radeon 9200 with 32MB of VRAM then you should be set. Though since it only comes with 256 MB of RAM you'll probably need to upgrade to 512 MB, but you were going to do that anyway, right? Actually, you were going to max it out at 1 GB of RAM, right? ;)
--
It works.
Free Flat Screens | Free iPod Photo

Re:not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[Anonymous Coward]

> Throw in another $75 and get 512.

Not allowed. Read the specs on apple.com. They say that Apple Stores, resellers, and end-users are not allowed to add RAM. You have to either buy it new with the RAM or ship it back to Apple, wait weeks, pay huge fees for shop time, and pay Apple's huge price for RAM to upgrade it.

The manager at my local Apple Store estimated that it would cost between $200-$300 to upgrade the Mini to 512 Mbytes of RAM. It might be less, but not much less since you have to pay Apple per hour to do the job.

Re:not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[@madeus]

The previous responded did a good job with the specs and I'd 100 % agree about the RAM (at least 512 MB, preferably 1 GB).

The CPU should be fine I would think (it's not a problem on my 1.5 Ghz / 1 GB RAM PowerBook, Radeon 9700 128 MB). I can see the 32 MB texture memory being a bit of an issue though (that's one reason I went with the 128 MB VRAM on the PowerBook), not sure how 32 MB VRAM performs on a Mac with WoW.

I find the varying landscapes and outfits in MMOG's tend to use a lot of unique textures, so more VRAM helps quite a bit IME.

Re:not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[Heisenbug]

Well, the thing is, $75 in this case only buys you an additional 256 MB. That's not such a sweet deal.

You're right that it wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me, though -- I just have a philosophical objection. I think it would be a lot smarter to offer the upgrade basically at cost (which I imagine would be about $35). An extra $40 isn't worth it if the next computer they buy is a PC.

Re:not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[Anonymous Coward]

Fer cryin' out loud, $75 is the cost to get Apple to add it (as a BTO option). It's right there in the Apple store, which should be back up by now. Stop lying.

Re:not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an iBook G4 800MHz w/ the same 32MB 9200 card, and I'd say it runs WoW acceptably. Yeah, low frame rates, and you can't turn on all of the features. But I can get my fix. 'Bout time for that, come to think of it....

Re:not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[nuggetman]

Well, the thing is, $75 in this case only buys you an additional 256 MB. That's not such a sweet deal.

It's still in the form of a single 512mb DIMM

Re:not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[JamieF]

256MB of the correct memory costs $48 with free shipping from Monarch Computer. So, we're talking about a difference in price ($27) that's about as big as the sales tax on the Mac mini.

(Because it's Slashdot, some dickhead is going to loudly point out that the Mac mini appears to have a single DIMM socket, so it'd really be a 512MB DIMM replacing a 256MB DIMM, so the price would theoretically be slightly less if Apple offered a 0MB option. Now I've said it so you can apply your brilliant insight elsewhere.)

If you want a big computer that you can open up and service yourself, get one. If you want a teeny tiny computer that has everything crammed in as tightly as it can be, while still using industry standard parts, don't be shocked when you find out that some skill is required to install the stuff.

Or, you can just wait for a web site to publish the directions, and do it yourself, and take your chances with breaking something. If you do it properly, they'll never know. If not, well, maybe you'll wish you hadn't been so cheap.

Re:not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[SoLO]

That isn't an option here

Why not? Seriously curious.. can you not open it up and put your own PC2700 ram in? This picture looks like the memory slot is in an accessible location.

Re:not $500, $575 -- remember the ram

[AdmiralWeirdbeard]

hrm, that does seem like they wanted it accessible. on the other hand, from the outside, it doesnt look like the top case has obvious de-coupling mechanisms... maybe its just like that so the factory techs can do the memory install last minute for custom orders w/ more. but then again they thought it was a good idea to have the memory slot in the old ibooks under teh airport card and a plate held in by 4 small screws... which they called "easily accessible" so who knows.

inside the Mac mini

[minus_273]

if you want to see what the insides look like check this. you can clearly see that something like the RAM are user serviceable.

You miss the point

[Microlith]

That Gateway is huge, comparatively. And it comes with Windows.

Think of it as a G4 iBook in a small case, designed for desktop use. For $499 I get a more or less feature complete Apple Macintosh with OS X on it, ready to use whatever hardware I already have (for input and display.)

With that other one you'd have to either use Windows or fight to get a useable Linux install.

Re:You miss the point

[djtripp]

XP Home to be exact.

Re:Planned Obsolesence

[47Ronin]

Still no user-replaceable battery, which is quite lame, my iPod now has about 90 mins battery life these days :( Come on apple, is it really too hard to let people replace batteries on their own?

Are you new to the Internet? Go buy a new battery you fool!

My disapointment is..

[xutopia]

that there were no announcement for a new powerbook.

Could be very nice indeed.

[TractorBarry]

Firstly let me say that I'm not an Apple fan boy by any stretch of the imagination - mainly due to having just bought an expensive upgrade to Emagics Logic about three weeks before Apple bought them out and killed the Windows line (At the time I bought my first Logic/Wintel machine I simply couldn't afford a MAC)

However I function as the increasingly irate and fed up "first port of call" for my friends Windows (ostly XP Home) spyware/dialler/virus etc. etc. problems. And I am sick to death of fixing crap only to find one of their kids has used IE to do something and we're back to spyware central.

If you could remove IE altogther that would be fine but you simply can't explain internet security to a 10 year old and quite frankly why should a user put up with this level of incompetent security in an operating system ?

So... if we don't get the usual ridiculous UK price hike (i.e. if the Mini mac comes in at a reasonable price - which will not be $499 = £499) then in future they'll be getting one piece of advice from me. Sell the XP box then buy a MAC for computing and a games console for gaming.

Maybe then they can get on with actually usuing their computers instead of spending all their time fighting to remove crap off them. And maybe I can have a week without having to deinfest some crap off an XP machine.

Worst part of it is that I only accept beer in return for my efforts so I've not only got a garage full of booze but I'm becoming an alcoholic (I have to drink to forget the frustration of removing all the crud from the Windows boxes) But quite frankly my liver and my sanity could do with a rest. Hell I might even get enough free time to properly understand my Linux boxes !

So to anyone at Apple reading this you're still a bunch of bastards for shafting us "Emagic on Windows folks" but well done for this. I hope you sell millions. My only question is why didn't you get your finger out and do this sooner ? And when can I look forward to the supporting adverts ?

"Are you tired of spending all your time removing spyware and viruses from your computer ? Wouldn't you rather use it as a productive tool instead ?"

"Then why not buy our Mini Mac and remember how computing was supposed to be"..

You get the picture.

Re:Shuttle battery! Great otherwise...

[TheRealStyro]

This is the only real huge drawback I see to the Apple iPod line - non-replaceable rechargeable batteries. Otherwise I would buy these things up like crazy.

I'll probably buy the shuttle as I like the function and excellent price-point, but I really don't like the battery issue.

Portable PPC Linux, anyone?

[kitzilla]

It's a G4, so pretty much all the PPC Linux distros will work. Take yer pick, Ladies 'n' Gents. Dual-boot with OS X, unplug your office monitor and keyboard, and jack in. On the cheap, at that.

cluster? Funny, but...

[javaxman]

how easy/difficult would it be to cluster these things a la Virginia Tech's supercomputer

A question so funny, I feel compelled to reply to it... not sure what that says about *me*, but anyway...

The Virginia Tech cluster is cabled together with some very, very high-end high-speed networking stuff, and the Mac mini ( note capitalization, like 'iPod mini' ) has standard 100-baseT ethernet, so one technically correct answer to your question, based on networking tech, would be 'can't be done'.

On the other hand, XGrid would run on this like any other OS X machine, so with a little ( fairly simple ) programming, you'd be clustering away in style. If you have some computation that's Altivec optimized, you'll probably even outperform a comparably priced cluster of Linux machines... though really, you *should* be able to put together a comprable no-graphics-card AMD boxen for ( a little, not counting labor ) cheaper, if a cluster of "whatever" cheap machines is really your goal.

A bunch of Mac minis could sure fit in a small space, though! I couldn't build a cheap PC that small. A cluster of Mac minis might not beat a G5 XServe cluster for price/performance, but it'd be cheap to set up!

Short ( ha ha ) answer: nobody is going to go about setting up a network of these for "real" high-performance computing... but a small college or even high school lab could be built pretty cheaply and XGrid applied to get it all hummin' on some distributed computing project and actually do some pretty impressive number-crunching... cheaply!

Re:cluster? Funny, but...

[Mad_Rain]

I must say, out of the responses I got, I like yours the best. ;) I completely forgot about the XGrid stuff - imagine a small office setup as workstations for a group of people by day; by night, a small office renderfarm. =D Not gonna compete with Weta but still could be fun.

But I guess that's what I like about computers - not that I'm smart enough to figure it out myself and do it, but the possibilities are there.

Do their product teams even talk to each other?!

[Slump]

Do I REALLY have to reach around the back side of my Mac Mini to plug in my new iPod Shuffle to load songs?

Silly.

(yes, I know, usb extension cable, usb port on keyboard, etc. etc. etc.)

Wouldn't it seem a bit more, I don't know, integrated if I didn't have to do that?

Mac Mini doesn't have an audio-in jack connector

[SilveRo_kun]

I wonder why the hell did they decide not to add a microphone jack... Maybe for aesthetical reasons, or are they planning on selling USB mikes?

Mac mini as noisy as iMac G4 or eMac?

[Anonymous Coward]

If not, then this the perfect Mac and a worthy successor to the Cube.
If yes, then you can always get an quasi-fanless iBook with the same specs, hook up screen, keyboard and mouse and have a nice portable to boot!

Anonymous Cow

It's over a decade since I last had a Mac, but...

[NeuroManson]

Is there any word whether the Mac Mini would include the OS?

If so, then they could seriously beat down Microsoft, since the only way to get XP "free" is by buying a crappy prebuilt PC.

It's sexy and tiny, and probably the first time any kind of Mac has come in a price range that graphic artists could easily afford (which was essentially the first real use for Macs, historically).

Radio !!!!! Re:goodbye bank account

[tc1970]

Radio...Radio...FM AND AM!!!! Yes...AM for news/sports & FM for music. Mr. Jobs, are you listening? Well, maybe Sony will have something for us. (Radio add-on on the PSP???)

Re:Radio !!!!! Re:goodbye bank account

[zonker]

yeah and maybe gmrs, frs, cb, ham, weather channel, tv audio, radar, gps, james bond tracking system and whatever else they can throw on it. i mean i have to have every type of communication on my 21st century walkman!

oh and it needs a 10 foot tall whip antenna. i'd be pissed if i couldn't get good reception. also i love the 70's jeep look about them...

i kid, i kid! ;p

Re:Radio !!!!! Re:goodbye bank account

[Anonymous Coward]

There are radio tuners for the GBA already. They've been around for years.

Anyway, radio add-ons are stupid. You can get ridiculously small standalone radios; why plug them into a larger device? No, the only way radios are a cool feature is if they're built-in. The PSP with some hypothetical radio add-on would suck worse than it already does.

As an ebay seller of Apple stuff

[adzoox]

I was pondering this same thing. I sell older Apple computer parts.

I could decide if this would just make the market bigger for older stuff or simply reduce my prices that I get for the parts.

Time will tell I suppose.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[Anonymous Coward]

That's fun and all, but how do you get any work done. Oh that's right you're looking at porn.

5.1 surround anybody?

[Danathar]

If apple would of just included 5.1 surround in the mac mini it would make a GREAT family room PC for multimedia.

It still can be done with USB audio, but sheesh, how hard would that of been? Almost every PC comes with at least 5.1 capability.

Re:5.1 surround anybody?

[Anonymous Coward]

so get yourself a PC that big with 5.1 surround then load OS X on it using PearPC. I'm sure it will give you the same effect and performance.

Re:5.1 surround anybody?

[nuckin futs]

look what's coming out...

No

[Rew190]

The Mac Mini is aimed clearly at PC users looking to switch, but featurewise it is a disappointment.

It has OS X and is an affordable Apple computer. That is all it needs to succeed in the market Apple is shooting for.

Re:No

[NatteringNabob]

I agree that it has all it needs for the market that Apple was shooting for, though it doesn't have quite enough for me personally. If the $499 included 512MB of mem (as it should) and had it been dual head, my check would have been in the mail by now. Maybe next year. Mac mini will be a huge success even without my order.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

The DVI port supports digital and analogue, as well as svideo/comosite. I wouldnt be at all surprised if the analogue and digital ran off of seperate outputs from the GPU. All you would need is to register the additional output in the firmware ( just like iBooks, eMacs and iMacs can ) and get a cable that splits the DVI-A into RGB and DVI.

Re:No

[cyrus007]

For me the more desirable thing would be if they could fit in a G5/Power5 processor with 512MB memory in that SFF with the next version of OS X (Tiger), maybee as an option at a slightly higher price of $599. That will fly off from shelves in droves ...

Re:No

[jamwt]

PROFIT! PROFIT!

This is a good product for a good price; you seem to want to find a company doing charity, not business.

Hell, I want a porsche for a nickel, but that doesn't mean its reasonable (or even possible.)

Question

[mockchoi]

This is maybe somewhat off-topic, but I'd really like to try garageband. Can any mac afficionado's tell me what type of hardware I'd be liable to need? Imac, emac, powermac, mac mini, ibook, powerbook? G4, G5? Is there any additional hardware/software I'd need, or would the computer come ready to go? Sorry if this is dumb, but I find mac nomenclature incredibly confusing.

Re:Question

[easter1916]

Garageband runs just fine on my 2003-model 17" PowerBook G4 1GHz with a gigabyte of RAM...

Re:Question

[chocolatetrumpet]

I was disappointed with garageband on my 866mhz g4 powerbook - it could only handle four or so (live audio) tracks before getting bogged down. Motu digital performer runs like a champ - 16 tracks at a time and it doesn't bat an eye. Now THAT's performance.

/. approves, but not investors.

[Aeron65432]

Most comments so far have approved of the new iPod and Mac PC, but the question is can it survive business-wise? Investors (in Apple) clearly didn't think so, as Apple stocks dropped nearly $3.00 a share today.

Re:/. approves, but not investors.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple shares always increase before an expo and drop on the actual announcements. (It's a reliable way to make a few bucks.)

Even so, if you bought and held Apple a year ago, you've tripled your money.

Wait for Tiger before getting a Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Did Apple annouce a release date for Tiger?

It might be worth waiting until it comes with the Mac Mini (and save yourself $150).

Re:Wait for Tiger before getting a Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but Jobs said that they're still on schedule for a 2005H1 release.

Oh, and Tiger would most likely retail for $130, I'd think... that seems the usual retail.

Re:Wait for Tiger before getting a Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Or download it for free along with the other Mac users when it appears on BT and P2P.

Mac clones won't happen!

[TheLittleJetson]

They make more money selling hardware than they would make from licensing it. Allowing clones would undermine their business model.

The reason you're seeing Apple develop all these cool things, is not because they're getting away from the hardware market. These products (iPod, iLife, OS X, etc.) are all designed to help SELL MORE MACS, and it appears to be working. They're showing that Macs are more than a different platform, it's a lifestyle. Much like BMW/Volkswagon advertise that their cars will change the way you feel about driving.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[ostiguy]

FWIW, we bought some ps/2 to usb adapters to use some hp provided ps/2 mice on macs, and got nowhere with them.

ostiguy

Developer Tools

[Anonymous Coward]

Do not forget that it comes with a complete set of developer tools for writing applications in Mac OS X. All the docs, example code, etc.

If you are a PC developer, just get a KVM switch and you are set.

naming and wtf is up with slot loading

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

"Mac Mini" what a suck name. Ah well.

Ok, rant time. What the hell is wrong with people? I don't want a slot loading drive -- they never (AFAIK) take the industry standard Mini-CDR or Mini-CDRW or Mini-DVD discs, while a "regular" CD loading system does. Thanks a lot, Apple, for giving me this nice little unit... that I have to plug in an almost equal-sized external drive into to use my optical media. And for what? You can't tell me they are saving any size on that box by making it slot loading, it just "looks cooler" or some crap like that. Okay, rant off.

Yup, I'm getting a Mac Mini anyway. Ah well. Can't wait to run MacOS X at home finally, but damn the slot loaders of the world. Damn them straight to Windows hell.

Re:naming and wtf is up with slot loading

[gobbo]

You can't tell me they are saving any size on that box by making it slot loading

Yes I can. The alternative, to keep the same 2" high form factor, would be one of those dollar-store style laptop tray loaders, which would just create all kinds of quality-perception and support problems for Apple. If you've never seen a slot-loader uncovered before, there's one on the miniMac design page. It's very slim.

Re:naming and wtf is up with slot loading

[gozar]

I don't want a slot loading drive -- they never (AFAIK) take the industry standard Mini-CDR or Mini-CDRW or Mini-DVD discs, while a "regular" CD loading system does.

Slot loading drives will take mini-cd and mini-dvd just fine. They do have problems with irregular shaped disks, such as business card cds.

Re:naming and wtf is up with slot loading

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

Slot loading drives will take mini-cd and mini-dvd just fine.

awesome... why have I always had problems with this then?

Re:naming and wtf is up with slot loading

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

to answer my own question: Putting Mini-CD's in a slot loading drive? thread where everyone seems to agree that putting a Mini-CD into your slot loading drive will either destroy the drive or require you taking the drive apart to get it out, or both.

The usewr manual specifically states not to use any non-standard discs. It even shows pictures of ones not to use, including mini-disks, the credit-card shaped discs, and the triangular shaped discs (though I've never seen on of those myself. Look around page 98 on the Getting Started pdf for the powerbook (mine is a 15" pb).

Not having that manual lying around... that is probably why I have the idea that you shouldn't put Mini-CD media into a slot loading Apple drive.

Re:naming and wtf is up with slot loading

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

Official Apple document on the issue: "Learn about the sizes and shape of discs that can be used in the CD-ROM and DVD-ROM drives in various Macintosh computers."

Particularly:

Warning: Inserting a nonstandard sized or shaped disc into a drive that is not designed to accommodate it may damage the drive. Some slot-loading drives may be able to accomodate 80 mm round discs, but their use is not supported and any damage caused will not be covered under your Apple warranty or applicable extended service contract.

So unless you like playing roullette with your non-easily-fixed proprietary box... do not use mini CD media in your slot loading Mac.

Re:naming and wtf is up with slot loading

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

Consider me corrected. But it still stands to question: "What kind of people are the kind who hand out those weird business-card sized CD media?" Oh yeah, Mac type people. Yet those CD media do not work in most Macs. Chalk another Apple decision to form over function, I guess.

Re:naming and wtf is up with slot loading

[gozar]

Offical Apple Document

Warning: Inserting a nonstandard sized or shaped disc into a drive that is not designed to accommodate it may damage the drive. Some slot-loading drives may be able to accomodate 80 mm round discs, but their use is not supported and any damage caused will not be covered under your Apple warranty or applicable extended service contract.

I stand corrected. I guess I've been lucky with my PB G4!!

Re:naming and wtf is up with slot loading

[gobbo]

Oh yeah, Mac type people.

Do you mean flakey creative types? Or ravenous slavering fanboi types? Or fuddyduddy old overpensioned retirees?

I know all of the above, Mac users, x100. The only people who've tried to pass those goofy miniCD's off to me in the last 15 years are nearly-creative-but-not-quite-gettin-it wintel users. Every. Time.

Re:naming and wtf is up with slot loading

[Anonymous Coward]

please severe your head or have a friend do it. the world gene pool thanks you.

Re:naming and wtf is up with slot loading

[nuggetman]

I don't want a slot loading drive -- they never (AFAIK) take the industry standard Mini-CDR or Mini-CDRW or Mini-DVD discs, while a "regular" CD loading system does.

The iMac slot drives contain two small arms that properly guide mini-cds in to place. The powerbook does not have these arms, but assuming they're using the same drive as in the iMacs and not the powerbooks, it will take them.

Re:naming and wtf is up with slot loading

[grrrl]

i like the slot loading

but the slot superdrive (imac, mac mini) is 4x, the tray loading (emac, powermac) is 8x

granted, atm 4x media is half the price.

Re:naming and wtf is up with slot loading

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

I don't understand your comment, as I don't know of the verb "severe". Too bad, perhaps I could have complied with your request. Maybe you meant sever? But I guess requesting actual verbs in their pithy comments is too much to ask of "the world gene pool".

For the record, I don't hand out or accept "weird sized CD media", but the standard (for many years) Mini CD media should be playable in any device which calls itself a CD-ROM or a derivative of one.

Billpalmer

[BenjyD]

The next post on Bill Palmer's blog might be quite an amusing read.

We seem to have slashdotted the apple store, too.

Re:Billpalmer

[zpok]

"We seem to have slashdotted the apple store, too."

And here I was, thinking Jobs had the patent on reality distortion?

... beats the pants off of the xpc ... NOT

[ninjagin]

Actually, I have four XPCs and the only spendy one is my gaming box which came in at a little more than $1100. The remaining three (my media center PC, my Linux development box, and my Windows development box) all came it at less than $500 each... with some cannibalized parts (HDs and RAM, mostly) from old systems.

Your point about value is a good one, and I'd agree that the cute little machine offers a lot of bang for the buck, but none of the internals offer really eye-popping performance. It's a commodity-priced apple, with midrange componentry. The XPC gives you hundreds of different configurations available, depending on what you want and how much you value things like graphics capability/processing horespower, etc.

I'd argue that the real value of this little number comes in that it's a Mac, and you don't have to pony up 1K+ to get something that will acceptably run OSX. I guess I don't see how this new cheap little Mac is even in the same product space as the XPC, even if its range of uses may overlap with that of a homebuilt XPC.

I'll probably buy one myself, but it certainly won't be able to replace my XPCs.

Re:... beats the pants off of the xpc ... NOT

[capsteve]

i must agree with you, the mini mac doesn't really occupy the same market as the xpc's, except for size.

last year there was an interesting statistic that sales of laptop computers were increasing more than expected, possibly due to the form factor issue( i don't remember the exact details, sorry).

considering that some components are not upgradable(i.e. video card), harddrive size is circa 2002(80 gb), or lack of end user upgradablity(airport/bluetooth), this fits right into the market for space consciense consumers, entry level users and switchers. this product will probably do really well in asia.

this might not replace one of your xpc's, but it could be an attractive option to some who may have considered an xpc for size and performance. i know that was one of my main considerations for the xpc, i can't fit another full size pc into my office!

Re:... beats the pants off of the xpc ... NOT

[ninjagin]

I was poking around here:

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000590026982/

... and the say that airport/bluetooth is an option on the $599 menu of features. I've never understood why Apple can't sell-and-tell (sell the extra hardware doohickey and tell you how to install it) their upgrades. Someone smarter than me prolly knows why, but I've always found it to be one of those things that made me look away from apple hardware in the past. The G5 iMac is a good example. Sure would be nice to be able to upgrade the video on that thing.

It's a very appealing little doodad. Just keeps getting more appealing the longer I look at it.

I'm going to have to hide my wallet, I think.

Re:... beats the pants off of the xpc ... NOT

[Omestes]

Actually it is available at the online Apple Store too, and both models of the Mini have bluetooth and airport options. Actually it looks like it has default Airport, since to pick on without says -$75.

Video upgrades I agree.

Re:... beats the pants off of the xpc ... NOT

[manno]

I agree with you, by the way you can't change the video because the video chip, and menory is soldered to the motherboard a-la laptop style -manno

Creative MuVo

[Slarty]

I just bought a 512 MB Creative MuVo TX FM... got it yesterday, actually. I've read good reviews, but overall... meh. It's got good features, I like the built in FM radio, but it feels a little flimsy overall. And worst of all there's a very high-frequency buzz that I can hear almost all the time, but especially when the backlight is on. That and, the first time I transferred songs to it, it only caught "chunks" of a few songs and refused to play the whole thing. Anyway, I think it's going back... in favor of an iPod shuffle. :-)

Also, the shuffle is actually quite a bit cheaper than the MuVo anyway. I paid $130 for 512 MB MuVo, I'll only pay $150 for a 1 GB Shuffle. I doubt the lack of screen will be a problem, I rarely look at the screen on my Audible Otis anyway, which is what this will replace.

Re:Creative MuVo

[llefler]

I paid $130 for 512 MB MuVo, I'll only pay $150 for a 1 GB Shuffle

And as an added bonus, it's not from Creative. The company of abandoned products with half-assed drivers.

I might be going back to Mac

[TrekCycling]

After years away from Mac (I drifted to Windows then Linux), I might buy myself one of these. It's so small and it fits a simple lifestyle, you know. I assume all the programming tools I need would work on it (i.e. MySQL, Apache, Tomcat, etc), plus I could learn Carbon just for fun. Wow. What a day for Apple.

Re:I might be going back to Mac

[Nexum]

You want to learn Cocoa - not Carbon.

(You have been away for some time then :) )

Apache is already installed on all machines, Tomcat works beautifully (first hand experience on that one) and I think MySQL would work equally as fantastically. in short - go for it.

Re:I might be going back to Mac

[norkakn]

I went along the same path and I'm happy to be back on a mac. I really hated windows, I still like linux, but for the computer that I want to just work, mac rocks.

Re:I might be going back to Mac

[TrekCycling]

Right, Cocoa. Either way the point is I want learn Objective C with a GUI on a system that *just works*. Especially so it *just works* for my wife. This is so tempting. I might be a "switcher" soon. Why do I feel like I'm cheating on Linux? :(

macmini = ibook - keyboard & screen

[Anonymous Coward]

wouldn't you say?

Imagine...

[polarbrowser]

a beowulf cluster of these!!!

I had to for old time sakes.
This thing is amazing, I can see buying a crate load of these.

How long till headless uses for these pop up. I can already think of using them as servers, data loggers, and robot controls. I mean, get a 1970s chevy blazer, some webcams, actuators, and a few of these mini macs and you can win the DARPA grand challenge. Okay you have to write some pretty nifty software first, but this would give you the right platform.

Hats off to Cringely

[HishamMuhammad]

Well, so the rumors in Bob Cringely's Predictions for 2005 were confirmed... From his article:

3) Apple will take a big risk in 2005. This could be in the form of a major acquisition. With almost $6 billion in cash, Steve Jobs hinted to a group of employees not long ago that he might want to buy something big, though I am at a loss right now for what that might be. Or Apple might decide to throw some of that cash into the box along with new computers by deliberately losing some money on each unit in order to buy market share.

We might see that as early as next week with the rumored introduction of an el-cheapo Mac without a display. The price for that box is supposed to be $499, which would give customers a box with processor, disk, memory, and OS into which you plug your current display, keyboard, and mouse. Given that this sounds a lot like AMD's new Personal Internet Communicator, which will sell for $185, there is probably plenty of profit left for Apple in a $499 price. But what if they priced it at $399 or even $349? Now make it $249, where I calculate they'd be losing $100 per unit. At $100 per unit, how many little Macs could they sell if Jobs is willing to spend $1 billion? TEN MILLION and Apple suddenly becomes the world's number one PC company. Think of it as a non-mobile iPod with computing capability. Think of the music sales it could spawn. Think of the iPod sales it would hurt (zero, because of the lack of mobility). Think of the more expensive Mac sales it would hurt (zero, because a Mac loyalist would only be interested in using this box as an EXTRA computer they would otherwise not have bought). Think of the extra application sales it would generate and especially the OS upgrade sales, which alone could pay back that $100. Think of the impact it would have on Windows sales (minus 10 million units). And if it doesn't work, Steve will still have $5 billion in cash with no measurable negative impact on the company. I think he'll do it.

So, $249 was a bit of wishful thinking in Bob's part... ;)

Re:Hats off to Cringely

[Anonymous Coward]

The year is not over yet. Jobs would certainly wait until production capacity outpaced demand before lowering the price.

Re:Hats off to Cringely

[Scudsucker]

Yeah, the $249 is never going to happen. Rather than gaining marketshare and making a modest profit, they'd be cannibalizing their existing consumer lines. Rather than getting a new iMac in a couple years, a lot of families would upgrade to a MiniMac instead.

Re:Hats off to Cringely

[WiggyWack]

Yeah, but dropping price is EASY. Just because it wasn't realised at $249 doesn't mean it won't be down to $249 in six months to a year. Apple could still follow Bob's plan but yet make more money in the beginning due to higher profit margins to help pay for the mini Mac's development.

Re:Hats off to Cringely

[damiam]

"Hats off to Cringely"? What? He was completely wrong! Apple didn't take a big risk; they're not selling the Mac mini for $249.

Re:Hats off to Cringely

[Mspangler]

This is one of his better ideas. Consider both options.

If it works; then Mac marketshare grows, and developers pay more attention to the platform, selling more machines of all types, and a positive feedback cycle gets going.

If it fails; Apple has a clear signal that the Mac's time is drawing to a close, and consumer-friendly appliances are the future, along with some high-end stuff like SGI still does (but with POWER chips instead of Itanics.)

Re:Hats off to Cringely

[killjoe]

If the sales don't take off like they are predicting (unlikely) then they might drop the price. Until then it makes no sense to drop the price on something you can't keep on the shelves.

Re:Hats off to Cringely

[colinleroy]

So, $249 was a bit of wishful thinking in Bob's part... ;)

I don't know about US, but in France it's forbidden (by commerce laws) to sell at a loss...

Another cool footnote!

[danigiri]

"Keyboard, iPod mini, dock, hands, AirPort, Bluetooth and PC sold separately."

Pun!

Check it here to understand... ^_^

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[dead sun]

Yeah, similar reaction here. It's like a paradigm shifting without a clutch. 1.25 GHz G4 will rock the heck out of Via's C3 and Eden processors too.

Linux on iPod Shuffle

[sokoban]

Anyone care to take bets on how long that will take?

i*

[Sebastopol]

iI iThink iThat iJobs iAnd iApple iAre iTaking iThis iI iPrefix iThing iToo iFar i.

Re:i*

[Anonymous Coward]

Min-iMac?

iPod Soffish!

[Pfhorrest]

This iPod Shuffle do not eat!

Re:iPod Soffish!

[fracai]

bwahaha

that is awesome

Re:iPod Soffish!

[Anonymous Coward]

In soviet russia, ipod shuffles eat you.

Lets do a deal

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll buy a plane ticket to the US, buy two. We split the cost of the flight, we both win.

Current exchange rate gives iMini = 260 pounds. Man, thats cheap. I spend more than that on cigarettes each month.

Re:Lets do a deal

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you get caught smuggling it in. 'Cause if you were gonna pay the VAT, well, £305 vs £339 doesn't quite cover a plane ticket.

the mac mini kind of reminds me of...

[utexaspunk]

this

Re:Do their product teams even talk to each other?

[Anonymous Coward]

Get the iPod Shuffle dock. $29.

"The iPod shuffle Dock enables quick connectivity for desktop users or those without an easily accessible USB port. No more reaching behind the computer: Just place your iPod shuffle in the Dock and it's ready to charge and sync."

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects /A ppleStore?productLearnMore=M9757G/A

How long until...

[RAMMS EIN]

I wonder how long it will take for iWork to get

1. A spreadsheet
2. Shipped with every new mac

When that happens, I'll buy one for my girlfriend.

Re:How long until...

[HuguesT]

You have a spreadsheet with AppleWorks that does ship with every mac.

Specs question - Games

[Dekks]

My wife would quite like to play world of warcraft along with me, as well as be able to browse websites etc while I'm hogging the pc as I often do. I was thinking of picking up a cheap HP or similar, the kind that have a few hundreds worth of rebates at bestbuy etc. Does anyone know if this is powerful enough to play WOW and are macs able to be connected to the same router as a pc? If so then this would be the perfect solution and I've always fancied playing about on a mac. Someone enlighten me and my apple ignorance :)

Re:Specs question - Games

[Fear the Clam]

Yes, it will play WOW, but you'll want at least 512MB of RAM.

Yes, you can connect it to the same router.

Re:Specs question - Games

[Nick of NSTime]

How will WoW look in 32MB of VRAM? Laggy as hell?

Re:Specs question - Games

[Fear the Clam]

32MB of VRAM is the minimum listed at worldofwarcraft, but I haven't seen it first-hand to tell you. Maybe you could get a look at an Apple store.

Re:Specs question - Games

[Anonymous Coward]

I play World of Warcraft all the time on my iBook. 1.25GHz G4, 32MB Radeon Mobility, so pretty much the same specs. I run at 1024x768 with most of the options off, and it runs great and looks awesome. There's some noticeable issues when you have a raid group or two on the same screen. It turned into a slideshow on a 100 man raid, but it works fine otherwide, even in a crowded Orgrimmar.

Multimedia Center

[umrgregg]

That Mini Mac is going to be the multimedia hub for my car. It's a full scale computer that will fit right into the dash of my car! This is great!

Re:No Line In Jack. = No good with VoIP?

[LemonYellow]

OTOH, get the thing configured with built-in bluetooth and, with a BT headset you're away. How cool would that be?

Thrilling.

[Anonymous Coward]

The tens of people paying attention to Apple must be happy.

Now back to the real news.

UI elements of the new Mail.app

[ryan_fung]

Take a look at the new Tiger preview.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/mail.h tml

You think brushed metal is bad and inconsistent? Take a look at our new random UI widget overlords.

Re:Planned Obsolesence

[oldwarrior]

if you can replace them, someone ELSE can sell you one. Not Apple's style. They'd sell you the CD's if they could.

Tiger is looking good...

[shawnce]

If folks haven't noticed Apple has updated their Tiger page with more stuff including movies of features in action. The polish they have put on Tiger since its announcement is rather impressive (was at WWDC 2004 and have access to seeds).

http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger

InDesign for the masses

[SuperKendall]

The great thing about Pages is that it sounds like InDesign for the rest of us - that is, something that can serve as a simple page layout program.

Word is not well suited to exact placement of anything really, and if the UI is really good it could win over a lot of people that traditionally have bought things like Print Shop Pro.

Re:InDesign for the masses

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. I think Pages looks more like Pagemaker instead of Word.

Re:InDesign for the masses

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Hopefully. I've had a great deal of fustration trying to help my mum sometimes when it comes to MS Word. Simply because it really is word-processor at the core that has been enchanted with some page-layout-like functionality. Which means many little qwirks and annoyances.
Of course, she can't really use FreeHand/InDesign/etc instead, because they're generally over-kill in terms of providing some flexability, and they're just generally not suited to doing word-processing type stuff.

Given that she recently complained about the speed of her computer (new camera, bigger images, computer chokes on them), and the release of this new Mac mini. It might be good time to try and convince her to switch.

Actually, $40.

[glrotate]

Use the Full-Duplexing capabilities of the USB 5.1 Channel Audio Adapter to record and play back without the use of a PC sound card! The USB 5.1 Channel Audio Adapter provides exceptional stereo performance with it's standard input / output connectors. Connect to the most popular audio equipment such as microphones, home stereos, musical instruments, and powered speakers through your USB capable computer.

Re:Actually, $40.

[Danathar]

Hmm....did'nt realize they were THAT cheap! Thanks.

Of course it still would of been nice if Apple had just built that into the system. I'm sure it would of only added $10 bucks to the overall price.

Practicalities?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mac Mini looks nice but:
1. Where are you going to put it? It's too small to go under the monitor, it will just take up desk space. I would have prefered a more 'upright' form factor.
2. Sockets are all round the back! iPod shuffle is supposed to plug straight into the USB, but this would be very awkward. When USB first came out, PC makers had them round the back, then they saw the light and put a couple at the front.
3. Bluetooth support - a wwireless keyboard and mouse would look very nice thank you.

Pedrow

Re:Practicalities?

[reiggin]

3. Bluetooth support - a wwireless keyboard and mouse would look very nice thank you.

Are you saying that it doesn't have Bluetooth? Because it does. It's a build-to-order option. Or are you saying that they should offer a wireless keyboard and mouse for it? Because they do. It's all there. They definitely didn't miss the wireless boat with this one. You can also add Airport Extreme (802.11g) to it. It's perfect.

Re:Practicalities?

[mrchaotica]

1. Where are you going to put it? It's too small to go under the monitor, it will just take up desk space. I would have prefered a more 'upright' form factor.

I agree; I would have preferred a flatter pizza-box form factor though -- then it could sit under a monitor, or on top of a home theater receiver. This isn't bad, though.

2. Sockets are all round the back! iPod shuffle is supposed to plug straight into the USB, but this would be very awkward.

That's because they want you to buy a dock for it.

Software

[Master Of Ninja]

You haven't even factored in the cost of additional software here. I don't know what the Dell has (assuming MS works), but the apple has an equivalent, and even has the full iLife suite, which would set you back a fair bit on the PC side even for just photo software, movie software, and garageband equivalent.

Re:Software

[bhtooefr]

Last I checked, Dell included MS Works, Jasc PSP Album, their rebranded Musicmatch version, and a trial of McAfee AV (may have been NAV, though). As for the movie software, Windows comes with Windows Movie Maker.

Granted, OS X should be compared to XP Pro, which (IIRC) is $79 more from Dell than XP Home.

iWork for windows?

[nurb432]

Just curious.. and it might run under wine in a pinch.

Who has pictures of the new hardware?

There goes 600 bucks.... ( already got a pod.. but a cheap G4.. cool! )

Re:iWork for windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are fucking dumb.

Re:iWork for windows?

[nurb432]

Thanks for such a usefull answer to a simple question.

And for the record, AppleWorks DOES have a win32 version..

Though I'm replying to an AC with a language issue.. go figure.

Where's the Power Supply?

[IdahoEv]

That power connector looks fairly nonstandard. Is it just to reduce socket size to leave room for the tiny connector panel, or does this thing have an external power supply like the cube did?

I can't find the answer on Apple's site.

Re:Where's the Power Supply?

[Oktober Sunset]

http://www.apple.com/hardware/gallery/mac_mini_pc_ jan2005_480.html spin it round and you can see the power supply behind it.

Re:Where's the Power Supply?

[nacturation]

Clickety-link without the space:

http://www.apple.com/hardware/gallery/mac_mini_pc_ jan2005_480.html

Re:Where's the Power Supply?

[iDav]

It's the same PS connection thats on the bricks for the new Al Cinema Displays. It's completely reversible, further reducing the chance that a user will try to plug is in backwards and destroy their shiny new iSquashedCube

Re:Where's the Power Supply?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was surprised that it wasn't a PowerBook/iBook Power Connector. It has all the same stats as my iBook G4, so I was a bit shocked when I saw that connector.

Mac Mini Mod

[lsmeg]

OK, so how long till someone mods the Mac Mini to fit in one or two PC drive bays? :) Maybe route the usb through to the PC's usb headers, a custom bracket in the back of the PC for DVI... Hmm, that could actually work...

Re:Mac Mini Mod

[Magic5Ball]

Much like the SPARCplug of yore...

http://indigoid.net/gallery.pl/ross-sparcplug/p000 0435

Re:Mac Mini Mod

[Anonymous Coward]

You'll do EVERYTHING possible to have females RUN away from your living quarters, won't you?

At this size it almost certainly uses 2.5" drives

[blorg]

...as a previous poster pointed out, at this size it almost certainly takes 2.5" drives, and there is already an 80gb option; the largest 2.5" drive currently available AFAIK is a (not particularly cheap) 100gb one. So you'd probably be best off just buying the 80gb option, which also gets you a faster processor 'for free'.

Heat probably wouldn't be too bad; it looks like the power supply is external and most of the other components are (low-heat) laptop ones.

HD specs?

[Tumbleweed]

Okay, looking at the little picture of the innards of the Mac Mini, it seems like it's using a 2.5" laptop-class HD. That would explain the 40 & 80 GB sizes. This also means it's almost certainly a 5400rpm drive. Yuck.

Does anyone know if the HD is user-serviceable/replaceable? I'd love to stick one of those 7200rpm jobbers in there for a nice speed upgrade.

I like the idea of the Mac Mini, but I think I'll wait for a G5 version. Hopefully they'll have gigabit ethernet in there by then. They'll need to figure out some way to get 2 memory sticks in there for a dual-channel G5, though.

This is _definitely_ the machine I'll be recommending to non-technical family and friends from now on, no doubt about it. Good work, Apple! Now let's sit back and watch Apple's marketshare rise...

Do not eat iPod shuffle

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPod Shuffle is pack-of-gum sized

Funny, Apple recognizes this too. From http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/ (bottom of the page):

1. Music capacity is based on 4 minutes per song and 128Kbps AAC encoding.
2. Do not eat iPod shuffle.

Ha!

Does the XBox have...

[SuperKendall]

A firewire port that you can connect to your cable box to use as a DVR?

Bluetooth that you can use for a great wireless remote?

Ability to play songs from the #1 online music store?

Ability to print a picture you are watching on the TV from where you sit, or mail it to someone?

Real VGA/DVI output for people with projectors or advanced displays?

Re:Does the XBox have...

[Garfunkel]

My comment was about making this a mythfrontend, not a general set top box. My XBox mythfrontend can/will:
-interface with a cable box (via serial or IR blaster) and use its built in DVR functionality
-get the $30 add on for a wireless reciever and use my universal remote which controls all my other devices as well.
-ability to play all the songs I already own and have purchased from "the #1 online music store"
-ability to view pictures on the TV via mythgallery and if someone hasn't hacked in the ability to print or email, do it myself
-connect to my normal TV via a normal video out.
(if you've got an "advanced display" or prjector, you probably aren't worried about saving a couple of hundred bucks).

In addition it can also play all the latest/greatest Xbox games, MAME Roms and some Linux PC games (via mythgame), and all the additionally cool new things that are getting hacked into myth all the time.

My intention in my post was to provide a substantially cheaper alternative if all he wanted was a Myth frontend in a smaller form factor. The Xbox is certainly not as versatile as a full blown Mac, but for less than 1/3 the cost, it's got a bit more bang for the buck in a decent set of applications.

Re:Does the XBox have...

[2nd Post!]

1/3 the cost and 10x the size, to boot!

The Master Plan

[alexjohns]

Don't tell me they didn't have this planned a couple of years ago. Cue the evil laugh.

Personally, I wish them well. I know I'm getting the Shuffle on payday. My long runs are taking over 2 hours now, so this will be a welcome companion.

The new products are just LAME!!!

[ryan_fung]

All successful Apple products must be first bashed by Slashdotters, right? :)

OS 9 support for Mini?

[objekt]

It's a G4, so can I load OS 9 on it, or are there other issues?

Re:OS 9 support for Mini?

[mikefoley]

More than likely, you cannot load OS9 on it.
There's no support in the OS for the hardware more than likely.

Re:OS 9 support for Mini?

[I_Love_My_Mac]

Contrary to the other reply you received, yes, you can load OS 9 on it, but only in "Classic" mode... in other words, you can't boot off of OS 9 (at least I don't think so), but you can always use 9 within OSX... that part kinda sucks when you realize just how much quicker OS 9 can be (until you come to a crashing halt trying to run too many apps within OS 9 native, that is)

Apple Store

[bigjnsa500]

Too bad their Apple Store can't hold up. I was going to order one today.

Prince Charles?

[EMiniShark]

is that you?

If you need it soon don't forget this $10 off

[adzoox]

http://www.apple.com/retail/feedback/

Store broken

[jbb999]

I thought I'd buy a mac mini but the UK store seems to be broken. Probably will have changed my mind by the time it's working again.

AWESOME! Mod up!

[objekt]

I love it!

Mom, there's your Apple!

[Nice2Cats]

I said it before when it was just a rumor and I'm going to put my money where my mouth was now that it is reality: I'm going to go out and buy my dear old mother a Mac Mini. It is time she got a computer that Just Works, and this is going to be it.

As somebody who has just switched his main personal computer from a Linux/KDE system to an iBook running OS X, let me state that Apple is now the single greatest threat to open source operating systems. The things really just work, especially the hardware (I'm so fucking sick of USB problems with Linux), the interface is beautiful (execpt, for course, for that stupid single-button mouse), and you can still drill down and use bash.

Forget Windows: The gold standard now is Mac OS X. That's what KDE and Co. should be aiming for.

Re:Mom, there's your Apple!

[t-maxx cowboy]

> iBook running OS X, let me state that Apple is now
> the single greatest threat to open source
> operating systems

Let me see how is apple a threat to open source? Their base os is open source, last time I checked they are a supporter.

Re:Mom, there's your Apple!

[Tumbleweed]

execpt, for course, for that stupid single-button mouse

Interestingly enough, OS X supports the functions of multi-button mice; you just can't buy an Apple-made multi-button mouse. Since this thing doesn't come with one by default, just buy a multi-button USB mouse and use it instead - perfect, no over-priced Apple mouse tax. :)

Re:Mom, there's your Apple!

[Nice2Cats]

Let me see how is apple a threat to open source? Their base os is open source, last time I checked they are a supporter.

Then I'm sure you can point me to the source code for Quartz, Quartz Extreme and especially Aqua then. Or Xcode, for that matter. I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in porting all of that to Linux.

Apple is being very pragmatic about Open Source in that they admit where they are beat (Safari is Konqueror, CUPS, Darwin, etc), use these free programs, and are in fact very good about sharing in these cases. However, the normal state of affairs is closed software: They are not like IBM, donating large pieces of high-quality software to the community. Why not, for example, just open source OS 9?

Apple is a threat because their closed-source GUI is simply the best in the world with no competition in sight, and at the same time, they give you Unix power. This is very attractive to people who would otherwise be inclined to go use Linux. There is no simple way you can make X do the tricks that Quartz lets Aqua do (which is why Apple didn't use X), and don't get me started on how superior the hardware is. The reason I switched was simply time -- I turn my iBook on, it works. I press "software update", it works. I plug in the printer, it works. Linux, even pre-installed Linux, currently can't offer that. Things that really save you time are always going to be popular.

No, Mac OS X is a threat to Open Source operating systems, the best parts of it are closed software, and the sooner the Linux crowd stop their silly fixation with Windows and realize whom they should be really aiming for, the better.

Re:Mom, there's your Apple!

[Anonymous Coward]

As somebody who has just switched his main personal computer from a Linux/KDE system to an iBook running OS X, let me state that Apple is now the single greatest threat to open source operating systems.

No. For one thing, if you want to keep your AMD/Intel box, you stick with linux. You switch to Mac OS X if you are willing to buy a new box.

For another thing, following Apple's footstep in the interface does not put linux in peril. If anything, it'll inspire linux to be more usable to average consumers. What do you think average consumer prefer? A Mac OS X knockoff or a Windows knockoff? Personally, I think a Mac OS X knockoff will appeal more to average users. Who knows? Maybe when linux is getting really good, Apple will have to take it to the next step. As long as Apple and linux take away Windows marketshare, I am happy. Mac OS X and linux are a natural fit. They complement each other.

Re:Mom, there's your Apple!

[aristotle-dude]

http://www.apple.com/opensource/

You were saying?
Not even IBM open sources everything. Come on now man.

Do you really expect them to open source Quartz/Quartz Extreme? Let's be realistic. They have to protect trade secrets and keep them away from MSFT. The 60's were over a long time ago man. Many of those "evil" closed source products help fund the open source you enjoy. Do you think those open source developers don't have day jobs in IT? Money does not grow on trees pal and developers don't work for free on larger projects.

Apple pays its developers to contribute code fixes back to those projects you use on linux everyday because it helps them in the end of the day when they use the software in their own OS. They just don't make a big deal out of it like IBM does.

Why is it not an option?

[melted]

You can buy a third party DIMM and throw it in. Why do you say it's not an option? Now, not including keyboard and mouse is a cheap move on Apple's part. I mean, come on, how am I expected to use the damn thing without a keyboard?

Re:Why is it not an option?

[@madeus]

You can buy a third party DIMM and throw it in. Why do you say it's not an option?

Because it's far to slow without 512 MB due to constant swapping, as very clearly indicated by the poster (as you'd see if you'd read the post a bit more carefully).

If you looked at the site you'd see it is physically an option, but as the poster indicated not a realistic option.

Now, not including keyboard and mouse is a cheap move on Apple's part I mean, come on, how am I expected to use the damn thing without a keyboard?

Your "supposed" to have one already, and in the rare event you don't (in the bizzare instance you have not bought a new non-legacy computer in ~10 years) you are "supposed" to buy one seperately, either from Apple - or if selecting 'Keyboard' from the drop down list while ordering is beyond your limited abilities (as it seems) - from another vendor.

You'd only kvetch if they included them and it wasn't an option.

Christ-on-a-bike there is no pleasing some people...

Re:Why is it not an option?

[Bassman59]

"Now, not including keyboard and mouse is a cheap move on Apple's part. I mean, come on, how am I expected to use the damn thing without a keyboard?"
Two reasons:
1) Everybody agrees that the Apple keyboards and mice SUCK and every Mac user goes out and buys a real keyboard and mouse with more than one button. So, why charge for something people are going to throw away, anyways? (Shades of Linux users buying PCs and wiping windows away, huh?)
2) Back In The Day, Apple didn't include keyboards with the computer. You had to choose between a handful of different keyboard options.
Now, if Apple would come out with USB and Bluetooth versions of the old Extended keyboards -- yeah, the really GOOD keyboards -- they could charge $150 and CLEAN UP.

Re:Why is it not an option?

[melted]

>> I upgrade from a third party right after I get a new computer.
>> That isn't an option here, so just bite the bullet and do it

He suggests you can't throw in an off the shelf PC DIMM in there while in fact you can.

And as far as keyboards, Apple keyboards are pretty good. Mice, that's another story, but I like the keyboard that came with my G5. Also, good luck finding an USB keyboard connected to a PC, and good luck finding a PC keyboard port on this iMac.

Re:Why is it not an option?

[Heisenbug]

As far as I can tell, throwing it in involves getting past a case that doesn't want you to open it and incidentally voiding your warrantee -- at least, there's a line on the design page about Apple-certified RAM upgrades only, and I haven't seen any mention of how you open it.

I shouldn't talk before I've seen it, but at this point not having a case that allows for upgrades seems like a pointless flaw in an otherwise awe-inspiring product. I guess we'll see, though.

Re:Why is it not an option?

[Anonymous Coward]

He suggests you can't throw in an off the shelf PC DIMM in there while in fact you can.

Read the fine print: it needs to be installed by Apple Authorized service. That means the best way is going to be to order it BTO instead of bringing your mini and your third-party RAM to a service center (hassles, hassles).

Unless you don't mind voiding your warranty.

Re:Why is it not an option?

[Anonymous Coward]

A modern "Extended". (I just use the original with an adapter.)

Re:Why is it not an option?

[mindstrm]

I'm quite confident that you could take your third-party ram to any certified apple technician and have them install it for you, keeping your warantee.

Re:Why is it not an option?

[boomgopher]

Also, good luck finding an USB keyboard connected to a PC, and good luck finding a PC keyboard port on this iMac.

I've picked up a USB PS2 port for like $8 bucks at Fry's, used it to convert my blessed Keytronic keyboard to USB. I'd assume Mac supports it also.

Re:Why is it not an option?

[Moofie]

For what it's worth, all the new Dell Optiplexes we bought here at work have USB keyboards.

And no PS2 ports.

Re:Why is it not an option?

[Anonymous Coward]

"You can buy a third party DIMM and throw it in. Why do you say it's not an option?"

Because it voids your warranty. RAM can't be installed by the customer.

Re:Why is it not an option?

[@madeus]

He suggests you can't throw in an off the shelf PC DIMM in there while in fact you can.

Ah sorry that's certainly true and possibly what I'll do (though I'm not sure yet, given the hassle I've had in the past). Though you'll want to get something suitably compatible (rather than just a generic off the shelf DIMM from a generic store, which is unlikely to be the right specifications and liable to induce problems - even on x86 getting the right DIMM's can be a pain these days) and it does void your 1 Year Apple Care warranty, which on a new model I have a horrible suspicion will end up being useful...

Also, good luck finding an USB keyboard connected to a PC

The last time I bought a Personal Computer (x86 with Windows, or PPC Macintosh or otherwise) with anything other than a USB keyboard was 1996 as I recall - it a new Twinhead laptop, my first laptop - though if it had been a desktop I would certainly have gotten a system with USB then too, but I was on a limited budget and this was a very special offer.

The next time I bought a new computer (and keyboard) was in early 1997 and it was USB (I remember specificaly because I got fed up of the laptop and swapped it for a tricked out games machine including a brand new Voodoo graphics card and snazzy new keyboard).

Even new PS2 keyboards in 1997 were coming with PS2 adapters, as I recall Apple haven't even sold a new computer with anything OTHER than USB since *1998* (7 years ago!).

It's not uncommon for people to have unrealistic expections about what is really very dated equipment, but it's been 2 years since I've even bought a USB keyboard (and even then, it was with a Sun Ray thin client). For example, my Apple Pro keyboard (and my Mac mouse) is BlueTooth, as is my Logitec DiNovo keyboard+mouse+media pad combo on my Windows XP system.

and good luck finding a PC keyboard port on this iMac.

USB is a port for keyboards on 'PCs' (including x86/Windows based systems since Windows 95), it has two (and the generic USB keyboards I still have - from Logitech and Sun Microsystems - work fine with any 1998+ Macintosh). If you use a PS2 keyboard with the supplied USB adapter you even use that on your USB equiped Mac (or Sun workstation for that matter).

A line has to be drawn somewhere as far as legacy support goes, especially when the likes of PS2 isn't even hot swappable and really was in need of being replaced. Given it's been 9 years since Windows supported USB (and 7 years since Apple stopped supporting legacy ADB entirely) and ALL the major vendors now ship USB exclusively it's not exactly unreasonable to expect USB, especially given you can buy a combined keyboard and mouse PS2 adapter for only 0.99 USD (froogle.google.com) if you're really stuck.

Re:Why is it not an option?

[MrBlackBand]

Everybody agrees that the Apple keyboards and mice SUCK and every Mac user goes out and buys a real keyboard and mouse with more than one button.

Not everyone bucko. I still have my REAL Apple keyboard and mouse two years after I got my Mac. There's nothing wrong at all with the keyboard (in fact, it's the nicest feeling one I've ever had). The only problem I have with the mouse is in games, but I somehow manage. For real work (music and video production, webpage creation, photo editing) the one-button mouse doth not suck. At least it doesn't if you have an OS that is well engineered from a UI perspective. But every Mac sold in the past three and a half years has that included.

Re:Why is it not an option?

[MrBlackBand]

Also, good luck finding an USB keyboard connected to a PC...

My parent's computer is a four-year-old Gateway and it has a USB keyboard and mouse. So no luck needed, thank you very much.

Re:Why is it not an option?

[jo_ham]

There is nothing in there that a "normal user" could install though - the target market for this machine.

Sure, I'd have no problem taking it apart and swapping HD, optical drive, RAM etc, adding Airport, but it will be like taking the iBook/Powerbook apart; challenging, but not impossible. All the parts are likely to be standard laptop parts taken from the Apple laptop production lines (2.5" IDE HD, slot load IDE CD-RW drive etc).

It is not designed for average joe to stick in a new hard drive when his current one gets too small.

Re:Why is it not an option?

[Heisenbug]

Right, but, Apple *has* made it trivial to install RAM and an airport card in the iBook and Powerbook. The same philosophy looks like it would work here as well: expose a couple of very basic ports (which are the ones most likely to be upgraded), and make the rest require special tools to get at.

I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen in a later release, but then, I haven't played with it, so maybe it would have been harder than I can see from the pictures.

Re:Why is it not an option?

[Anonymous Coward]

grandparent: You can buy a third party DIMM and throw it in. Why do you say it's not an option?
parent: Because it's far to slow without 512 MB due to constant swapping, as very clearly indicated by the poster (as you'd see if you'd read the post a bit more carefully).
amadeus you have to be the stupidest motherfucker I've encountered on slashdot. And that's saying a lot. Read the post you were replying to you dense motherfucker!! READ! How in the fuck do you make it through an entire day without walking into a fucking wall?

Re:Why is it not an option?

[Anonymous Coward]

amadeus you have to be the stupidest motherfucker I've encountered on slashdot.

Are you new here?

He probably just got up from crashing to the ground after hitting the wall, you insensitive clod!

Re:Why is it not an option?

[Omestes]

Make all the fun you want of the Apple mouse, but don't disreguard the keyboard. The mouse is GREAT for people who grew up, or are really used to Macs, BUT... They just don't cut it for "switchers", or people who are used to PCs. Also I find the mice to be too pressure sensative, I end up clicking non-stop because of grinding it down. Though I'm slowly getting used to them, they still are annoying as hell with firefox with gestures, especially when you have right mapped for gestures. And firefox does not support the click-hold action that makes Mac mice operational with context menus.

The keyboards lack all the superflous crap that most decent PC keyboards have though, by default. No stupid "check my email" button, no "fast forward" button, no "default open IE" button. Volume and Eject, thats it. Good action on the keys too, and they are nice to look at.

And on this new Mini, they are needed, I fear, since it doesn't have an eject button. Sure you could drag media down to the trash, but it is much nicer to just hit eject to unmount media. Also, with only 2 USB ports to work on, your gonna need both for keyboard and mouse, so using the built in USB port on the keyboard would be nice. Unless, of course, you shell out the extra cash for the bluetooth option, of course.

Re:Why is it not an option?

[@madeus]

The angry young luser ranted:

Read the post you were replying to you dense motherfucker!! READ! ("omg!!11! +more swearing cuz its k00lzors", etc)

You'd do well to take your own advice, specifically followup ID 11329740, apparently you didn't read that before your ranted.

Additionally, learning the phat skillz of 'typing' might also be of some use to you.

So no cigar, but thanks for playing though.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[Insipid Trunculance]

Apple just like the rest of them loves screwing non-Americans when it comes to exchange rates

Any idea how much would this iPod Shuffle would cost in the UK?

From the Mac mini site:

[chris_eineke]

"Keyboard, mouse, megaphone and display sold separately." :D

i-* stuff is plastic

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything that begins with an 'i' has a white container / box. Everything without the 'i' is brush aluminum or black.

A kind-of subtle marketing / packaging detail. Attention to detail is a usually a strenght of Apple, and it shows here.

A lookalike?

[arhines]

Oh my, if i've ever seen the spitting image of a Nanode, it's the mac mini. More Nanode action here.

Re:A lookalike?

[Elder Entropist]

Close. Their specs are about 3.7" X 5.9" X 6.3" compared to the Mac Mini's 2" X 6.5" X 6.5", so the Mac is almost half as short and just a bit bigger in the other dimensions.

Re:A lookalike?

[zpok]

I'm looking at my cube here and keep thinking "If I could just saw this thing in two pieces..."

It may be a lookalike, but they didn't have to rip off any other design than their own.

Re:A lookalike?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure he's referring to the appearance and general theme of the box - not just the height dimension. The pc one is thinner, taller, and has exactly the same design themes.

Re:A lookalike?

[Elder Entropist]

Yeah, but that's more form following function. How to get this as small as possible? Well, we're limited by the CD/DVD-Rom specs, so we make it a small box with a slot for the CD-ROM and ports in the back. Seems pretty obvious.

Imagine a beowulf cluster

[Anonymous Coward]

... of Mac Minis!

Mac Market Share: 2.7%

[meehawl]

Latest W3C stats:

Mac: 2.7%

Linux: 3.1%

Apple really needs this cheapo Mac to be a hit otherwise the Mac is going to go the way of the Amiga. I hope this new Macs quality is better than the eMac's lousy record.

Re:Mac Market Share: 2.7%

[ctid]

Whatever you think of Mac and Linux (I have both and prefer Linux), Apple is not going anywhere. Even without the Mac Mini they were doing fine. They are going through the roof with this new stuff. No doubt about it.

Re:Mac Market Share: 2.7%

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it strange that Mac market share corelates exactly to the percentage of homosexuals in the general population. We all suspected that most Mac users had a tencancy to the gay persuasion. Now we have some proof.

If your idea of a good time is to lock yourself into an odoriferous men's room stall and have a stranger stick his penis into your rectum, then Apple is for you.

Re:Mac Market Share: 2.7%

[zpok]

Do you have any, I mean any idea how many computers that is compared to when you could actually go out and buy an Amiga?

Re:Mac Market Share: 2.7%

[LMariachi]

You should know better than to parrot Dvorak. "W3schools.com" is not the W3C, and browser ID stats don't reflect market share. Besides, Apple's been profitable with a tiny market share for years now.

A number of points you miss:

[SuperKendall]

All of the points you got wrong are related to who is going to buy this in droves - people have have PC's who like iPods and are tired of the PC world.

In that world, the computer might be a little old - and slowed further by virus/spyware that have crept in. This computer will seem like a rocket.

Plus of course it's like 1/10 the size of a clunky Dell box, a plus for anyone.

The firewire port is also not a "slight win" for anyone that likes to play with video, which is all parents in the US.

It's a box for people that want to buy a computer without having to worry about a computer. It's for people who like iPods and wonder what else Apple can do. Shortly it may well be anyone looking for a high-end DVD player and PVR. It's basically a computer for anyone that has not got a PC yet, or wants something different - dare I say a PC for the rest of us?

Re:A number of points you miss:

[jaydonnell]

" The firewire port is also not a "slight win" for anyone that likes to play with video, which is all parents in the US." I think you must be living in a different US than me. Oh wait, your in the other half of the "two americas".

Re:A number of points you miss:

[brkello]

lol, the crap that gets modded up on here. While the cheaper iPods and Macs is a very good thing that will appeal to a lot of people, tone your zealotry down a bit...this isn't the second coming or something. People who like iPods and who have PCs are not tired of the PC world...way to over-generalize there. Are the some people out there who systems have slowed down from spyware and are pissed? I imagine they have no idea...and if it is slowed down enough, they ask their friends, like mine do, to come help them out...and I do. And by help, I don't tell them to go by a mac, I install AV software and ad-aware. Making it small and compact is good for a lot of users, it wouldn't work for me though...I like to have plenty of slots so I can stick different things in there. But that's just me...it's not going to appeal to everyone though. The firewire can be considered a slight win, because a lot of people don't even know what firewire is, much less need it for anything. You again make a stupid over generalization that all parents in the US play with video and want firewire. Is it a PC for the rest of us? Uh...no...it's a PC. It has advantages and disadvantages. It really drives me nuts every apple article that comes out...because of all the trolls who hate Macs, and all the zealots (like you) that make Macs sound like the holy grail of computing. I know I can just not click on it, but like a moth to a flame, I am drawn to see what dumb thing people will say next. Whenever you are so blinded by emotion, you fail to see the truth. A Mac is just a tool, it is good for some, not for others...it's fine that you support it, just don't make stuff up to make it sound better.

Re:A number of points you miss:

[porcupine8]

In that world, the computer might be a little old - and slowed further by virus/spyware that have crept in. This computer will seem like a rocket. This is a huge point. Your average man-on-the-street, thinks-"memory"-means-the-hard-drive computer user does not get a new computer every year. Maybe every 3-4 years, maybe even longer. They're my mom, who is still using Windows 98. Or even my boyfriend, who is running Redhat 6 on a 133 mhz machine. They don't care much whether they get 1Ghz or 10 - my 700Mhz eMac is a lightning bolt compared to their current five-year-old machine. If having OSX instead of Windows is a down point, that's a deal-breaker right there. This is a machine only for people who see having OSX as a good point - they're sick of reinstalling windows and running AdAware every day.

Re:A number of points you miss:

[porcupine8]

Are the some people out there who systems have slowed down from spyware and are pissed? I imagine they have no idea...and if it is slowed down enough, they ask their friends, like mine do, to come help them out...

And if they happen to know someone with a Mac, they wonder why that person never has the slowdowns, never has to reinstall their OS, never has to reboot... And they start to get curious.

No, not every PC user will turn in their machine for a Mac. Most are afraid of change, and most have never even been exposed to a Mac before. But all those parents whose college kids got a Mac laptop? And once they have a Mac, all their friends, who see how much more stable the new computer is? That's not enough people to give Apple a majority market share or anything, but I think it could drive market share into the 10% range. And all those people have been waiting for is for it to get cheaper.

Re:A number of points you miss:

[Rew190]

this isn't the second coming or something

This computer is likely going to bring a ridiculous number of people over to Apple. Apple is in PERFECT position right now to eat some of the PC's marketshare, especially when looking at the iPod popularity.

Second coming? No, but this simple little computer looks like it's going to be a major blow to Windows-based machines. At the very least, it's going to be exciting to see how much damage a well built OS in an affordable computer can do to the marketshare of the PC behemoths. If enough of these suckers sell, we're going to see some real innovation between all of the competitors. That's good for everyone.

Whenever you are so blinded by emotion, you fail to see the truth.

This little computer could potentially cause quite a stir, especially riding on the iPod's coattails. It doesn't require zeal or emotion to understand that an increased marketshare for Apple will probably result in increased innovation/lower prices if a full-scale OS war happens.

That's why this is so cool, whether you like Apple or not.

Re:A number of points you miss:

[Milo77]

That reminds me. I wish there was a way to get 5.1 audio out of the mini.

Re:A number of points you miss:

[guuyuk]

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Transit-main .html

Analysis poor - systems not similar.

[javaxman]

seriously, if you're going to pretend to compare systems, at least make them similar.

The Dell you mention might be a better comparison, and... it's the same price, but with a Celeron ( for cryin' out loud... ) and *still* doesn't have dedicated VRAM... the Mac mini beats that one in just about every category.

You list 10 points, give only 4 of which you can clearly give to the PC, and not clearly or easily on all points, and yet you conclude that the Mac isn't relatively a good deal with little discussion as to why. It's a much closer race than you make it out to be. I'm looking at the other responses to your 'analysis', and I think I'll stop here, just saying I'm one more vote for "that analysis is not so good, that post is not so insightful".

Sure, you and I can build cheaper AMD systems. That's not the point. The point is this is a machine any iPod user might buy on a whim. We'll see how these sell...

Re:Analysis poor - systems not similar.

[Dink Paisy]

Addressing you point by point:

The Celeron processor is still faster than the 1.25 GHz G4 PowerPC. The integrated graphics is definitely a minus for both the whitebox AMD machine and the Dell machine. The Dell machine is comparable to the whitebox AMD machine in every category except memory, where it is better.

I consider price, peripherals and operating system to be the key points, since those are the things that will most directly affect the end user experience in the target market. Processor, video, memory, warranty, connectibility--who cares? The target market is people who want a new PC, have a few hundred dollars in their pocket, and like their ipod. The PC wins on two of the three most important points and gets a toss-up on the other. I'm sorry that I didn't make it clear in my original post that I consider some factors more important than others.

The AMD system I included is pre-built from a local whitebox vendor. You can go to their store and point to it on a sheet of paper (it's easy to find, because it's the cheapest one). They will stick the processor into the pre-assembled chassis and bring it out for you within fifteen minutes. You can also order it online and have it delivered anywhere in North America (although shipping would likely raise the cost above that of the Dell machine if you live outside of Toronto). It is a machine someone can buy on a whim.

Re:Analysis poor - systems not similar.

[nzhuk98]

The Celeron processor is still faster than the 1.25 GHz G4 PowerPC.

How is this comparision being made? Are there some specific processor benchmarks published? In operations per second or something similar. But can you actually compare RISC and CISC operations per second? Anyone has any insight on this?

If we are talking about user perceptions, I have to disagree with the above assesment. I use both PCs (Windows and Linux) and Macs. I do some amature photo and video editing occasionally and from my experience 1Ghz G4 is approximately equivalent to 2.4Ghz P4. As far as less demanding applications such as www, email, word processing, they work equally well on both or even much lesser CPUs. I have 600Mhz G3 that runs latest Mac OS X, Safari, iTunes, iPhoto, email just as good as 1Ghz G4. What's the least powerfull CPU that Win XP, iTunes, Photoshop Album (for example) can comfortably run on? I know Athlon 1400 works fine.

Re:Analysis poor - systems not similar.

[macshit]

The Celeron processor is still faster than the 1.25 GHz G4 PowerPC.

Er, have you ever used a P4 Celeron? In my experience, it's one of the most horribly anemic processors around, and performs far worse than you'd think by looking at the clock speed. As far as I can figure the main reason for the P4 Celeron's crap performance is the tiny 128MB level 2 cache, which just kills it on a lot of modern software.

The G4 used in the Mac Mini has a 512MB level 2 cache, which is a lot more reasonable. Memory bus speeds seem comparable: Dell 400MHz, Mac 333MHz.

Anyway, it's far from clear that the Dell is actually faster in any useful sense (though I guess they are in the "marketing to the ignorant" sense, which is usually why companies use P4 Celerons).

My new media box...

[JakiChan]

This will be my new media box. My current media box is a full sized PowerMac 1GHZ sitting next to my 50" LCD RPTV and it's noisy and distracting. (And let's not forget the 250GB firewire drive with neon lights on top. Damn you Western Digital!) This will replace it easily and fit under the TV with the rest of the stereo gear. It lacks digital out, but I already have an M-Audio Sonica which works great. Now admittedly I'm not the target user (I mean you have to run SwitchRes X to get a good resolution on the TV) but this will look very nice next to the rest of the HT gear!

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[Anonymous Coward]

yes

Educational Discount

[hiworld]

has anyone found out what the educational discount on the $499 machine will be?

going along with their regular trend, i would think itll cost us lucky students $449?

Re:Educational Discount

[SillyWilly]

In the UK at least the education store has no discount for the Mac Mini.

Re:Educational Discount

[nuggetman]

$479 for the lesser, $579 for the greater

Mac Mini="Headless iMac"?

[Theory of Everything]

Isn't the current iMac just a head with keyboard and mouse? So what's a "headless iMac"? Particularly since the mini doesn't ship with a keyboard or mouse.... $499 well spent.

Re:Mac Mini="Headless iMac"?

[nuggetman]

If this is a troll it's the most confusing one I've ever read.

The iMac is a computer/monitor integrated in to one unit, and it ships with a KB and mouse.

The Mac mini is a computer that ships with no monitor, keyboard, or mouse.

The Mac mini is not being marketed as a "headless iMac", it's being marketed as its own identity.

Didn't they try this already?

[FrankieBoy]

The Mac Mini looks just like a sawed of Mac Cube from years past. We had one at our company and it drew a lot of attention but few people wanted one of their very own. Well at least this one's reasonability priced, unlike it's predecessor. Still no date on Tiger...

Re:Didn't they try this already?

[ashooner]

Design-wise they did, but rather than competing poorly in price and function to the top-end powermacs, this one is about 1 1/2 price points below the lowest Mac at the time of the Cube...

I won't buy the mini

[Electric Eye]

I realize I may be in the minority, but I think the CPU specs suck. the BEST they can do is a 1.4Mhz G4? I might as well snag a used G4 tower at that price. And the 80GB drive? Still way too small. Since 300GB drives are available, why not give customers the option to go that high? Hell, even 200 would be great. I have an old Mac tower with 4 drives. Where am I supposed to put all my crap?
In theory, this thing is great. But the G5 has been out for well over a year, year and a half and they're giving us the leftovers? Make it an inch higher and give us a screaming G5!!
Oh, and the graphics card? Also yesterday' news. No thanks, Steve.
What a bummer.

Re:I won't buy the mini

[Nexum]

Do you not understand? Is it that tricky?

This is a budget Mac at $499. If you want a G5 and a faster card - there is a product just for you, called the PowerMac - but you'll have to pay for what you want.

This product is excellently placed and priced, now quit whining.

Re:I won't buy the mini

[dowobeha]

I realize I may be in the minority, but I think the CPU specs suck...Since 300GB drives are available, why not give customers the option to go that high...the G5 has been out for well over a year, year and a half and they're giving us the leftovers?

Umm...they're obviously not targeting you with the Mac Mini.

Seems to me that the Mini is designed to grab people who wouldn't have otherwise bought a Mac. Like people who bought an iPod, really like it, and have been saying, "I'd love to buy a Mac, but they're just too expensive, and by the way I already have a monitor, keyboard, and mouse."

You're right that the specs on this machine aren't even close to cutting edge. But they don't need to be. For people like you, there's the G5 Tower. Or, as you said, a used G4 tower. Apple doesn't want you to buy this machine - they want you to buy a higher end machine. Which is why this one isn't super-upgradable.

MythTV front end box?

[Yeechang Lee]

What I want to know is, how well would the Mac Mini work for MythTV? I know MythTV on OS X isn't quite ready for prime time yet, but what about running Linux on it instead?

Re:MythTV front end box?

[dowobeha]

What I want to know is, how well would the Mac Mini work for MythTV? I know MythTV on OS X isn't quite ready for prime time yet, but what about running Linux on it instead?

As long as the optional TV-out adapter still works in Linux, I don't see why it wouldn't work just fine.

Whoa! Time travel!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, let's see ... You want a machine from the 21st century, only to run a 1980's window system in order to interact with your clone of 1970's UNIX?

Re:Whoa! Time travel!

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhh isn't Mac's OS based on BSD, a clone of a 1970's UNIX. Am I a pedantic twat or what?

Re:Whoa! Time travel!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, a pedantic twat with piss poor reading comprehension skills. Stay in school.

Re:Whoa! Time travel!

[jsebrech]

You want a machine from the 21st century, only to run a 1980's window system in order to interact with your clone of 1970's UNIX?

Ofcourse, Mac OS X is the wedding between mac os classic (early 80's tech) with nextstep (late 80's tech).

Just because something's based on old technology, doesn't mean it's bad.

Beowulf Cluster

[hiworld]

i'm selling my car and building a beowulf cluster of mini macs... i'm gonna put it in my shed out back and call it "the apple tree" mmmmmmmm

Bastards!

[Oktober Sunset]

once again, the dirty bastards are trying to rip us off $499 =/= £339 =/= 519 thats 680 dollars in Ireland and 636 in the UK.

Re:Bastards!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's actually $540, not $636. Stop electing socialists, and maybe one day you can lose that 17.5% sales tax.

Re:Bastards!

[easter1916]

It's VAT, not sales tax, and Ireland has an economically liberal government... actually so does Britain! They're "New" Labour, remember?

Re:Bastards!

[CountBrass]

You're forgetting VAT and import duty which add about 25% to the price. I don't think you can blame Apple for UK taxes.

Re:Bastards!

[CountBrass]

Holy crap: yet another fucktard's been let loose with the mod stick. HOW CAN AN UNMODERRATED POST BE "OVERRATED" YOU FUCKING MORON?!?

If you haven't got the balls/brains to decide why exactly you think a post is "bad" then perhaps you should give your dad his computer and go back to drooling over your lego.

and so Mr Gates what did you offer this week....

[deagle]

....A big fat nothing at CES.

Apple have the mo ! The times are a-changing.

Limited by battery life

[jangobongo]

...its not meant to go with you on long drives.

Lets see... 240 songs @ 4 minutes per song (according to this) would equal 16 hours of music. Thats a long time. I think this would last me on a long drive...

The drawback is that the battery only gives about 12 hours of continuous playback time. Still, thats enough for a long drive - don't usually want to spend more than 8-10 hours a day driving anyway.

So... iShuffle - $99
Not having to put up with irritating DJs, commercials, and limited playlists - Priceless!

Mod this up

[Loco3KGT]

haha funnays

Anyone read fine print #2 on the iPod Shuffle page?

http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/

Re:Mod this up

[The Dark P]

Hey, they just changed it from eat to chew!

Re:It's over a decade since I last had a Mac, but.

[mkarpinski]

It does include OS X (10.3) and the iLife 2005 suite. Also included is AppleWorks, Quicken 2005...

USB Shuffle?

[Noordijk]

I'm a little disappointed that the Shuffle is USB only. Lots of mac users are stuck with Firewire and USB 1.1 (Apple didn't join the USB 2 party until pretty recently), the transfer speeds for 512 or (shudder) a gig of music will suck with USB 1.1. I really don't see as much difference between the Shuffle and it's competitors as I see between the iPod and other hd based players, and I was assuming that fast transfers would be the difference for mac users, but apparently it won't be for all but the most recent macs.

Don't forget music/ video editing

[acomj]

The give you imovie and garage band. Both very cool high quality prosumer apps.

The video editing is really quite good and garageband is a lot of fun( you can record into it and use drum/bass/keyboard loops.) and comes out quite professional. Good stuff.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[Peter Cooper]

It's USB only. You can, however, get PS2->USB adapters on eBay pretty cheap. I have one so I can use my Microsoft Natural on my Mac. Works great. Also means you only take up one USB slot too.

Re:The one mouse button

[STrinity]

The one mouse button - any application designed well should only need one button.

So tell me, when I click a link in Firefox, should it behave as a left-click and open the page in the current tab, middle-click and open the page in a new tab, or right-click and open a context menu so I can save the link, bookmark it, or copy it to the clipboard?

External power supply

[dogmatixpsych]

I looks like the Mac Mini has an external power supply (much like a notebook computer). That's one reason it's so small.

iShuffle could be fastest way to navigate?

[Redshift]

If there are only 120 songs on an iShuffle, and you know the order of the songs, perhaps the shuffle technique could be one of the fastest to get to where you want to be?

E.g. Shuffle mode on -> next -> (nope) -> next -> (nope) -> next -> (yup that's about it) -> shuffle mode off -> back / back / back / play

Mac mini + LCD + keyboard = portable

[tungwaiyip]

Mac mini weight own 2.9 pound? I predict in the very near future the market will be flashed with mac mini accessories. A display and keyboard would make it a great budget portable.

Be safe with your iPod Shuffle

[Lennavan]

I just wanted all the slashdot users out there to remember: it may be small like a pack of gum, it may even look like a pack of gum. But please DO NOT EAT IPOD SHUFFLE.

Read more at http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/ on the bottom of the page.

Why oh why...

[jdtanner]

...is there such a difference in price across the Atlantic?

$399 for the basic Mac Mini in the US and $636 (GBP339) in the UK! The Irish have it even worse for a change with $680 (EURO519).

Anyone care to have a go at explaining the price difference?

Re:Why oh why...

[Cmdr TECO]

1. It's US$499, not $399.
2. The listed US prices do not include any local sales taxes, the £339 does.
3. Ex VAT, £289 = $542 at current rates -- less than 9% difference.

Re:Why oh why...

[easter1916]

I think our basic VAT rate in Ireland, at 17%, is higher than the UK rate. That, and the fact that everything now costs a freaking arm and a leg in Ireland. I haven't lived there in over 10 years, and I'd move back in a heartbeat if it weren't for the shitty weather and brutal cost of living.

Re:Why oh why...

[jdtanner]

Ooops...

Even so...10% is still a fair difference.

John

Re:Why oh why...

[jdtanner]

UK VAT is 17.5% so we are about even...

I was shocked how expensive it was when I was in Dublin about five years ago...I can only imagine what it is like now. :-(

John

Re:Why oh why...

[easter1916]

It's nightmarish! A friend of mine just bought a 1200-square foot semi-D house in my hometown (a smallish town in the southwest), nothing special, new development of 20 or so houses, for... euro 380,000. It's just insane.

EUR 5 for a pint of Guinness in the local, EUR 7 for a pack of 20 cigs, you hit the highest income tax rate as soon as you earn the average industrial wage (not that high, maybe EUR 35,000 a year)... it just all adds up. Especially compared to the very reasonable and sane cost of living here in St. Louis, where I've been for the last 6+ years.

And yet Ireland tops the Economist Intelligence Unit's ranking of places to live (determined by quality of life, not income...)... every Irish person I know laughed bitterly when told about this, given that they're paying through the nose for the privelege of living there...

Me, I'm waiting for the housing market crash before I move back there... it makes me sad. I emigrated to the continent in 1992 because I was being paid a pittance there, now I can't afford to move back!

This post is a bit of a rant, isn't it? Sorry :-)

Shuffle guy

[Misanthropy]

Check out the guy with the ipod shuffle on the apple front page. You'd think they would want a somebody a little more excited about their new music thingy.
This guy looks pissed off that he didn't get a real ipod...or retarded...or both.

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[thparker]

I'm begining to get the feeling that Steve Jobs might be trying to reposition Apple. Hardware is a mugs game, after all. We all know what happened the last time Apple tried to licence the Mac to clone builders..but what if they tried it now?

No. I think this is far more indicative of reduced hardward component costs than anything else. Hardware has never been "a mug's game" for Apple - it's been the foundation of their operating profit. Granted, lately it's been consumer product hardware like the iPod, but Apple has always made money because they make stuff not code.

Neutered video, AGAIN

[Anonymous Coward]

Mac mini sports a full-fledged ATI Radeon 9200 with 32MB dedicated DDR SDRAM over an AGP 4x bus.

So what, video is only four years behind current tech in macs now? Not even in a slot so you can't change it out for a decent video card.

"We are pleased to announce the chocolate ration has been raised from 25 to 15 grams per week"

iPod Shuffle

[pherthyl]

So.. What exactly is so great about the iPod Shuffle? Seems like they threw away all that was unique to the ipod. No more cool click wheel, no more quality GUI interface.. So what's left? A small usb player with not even a one line song title display and no OGG support.

Great, there's a million of that type and most of them have at least either a rudimentary display for the song title or support for more formats.

(Yes I realize the normal iPod is still available, I'm saying the new one is pretty stupid)

Missing feature

[Slashdot Insider]

Only one built-in ethernet port unfortunately. :(

Re:Missing feature

[mkarpinski]

And you point would be? I would assume that 99.99% of personal computers (i.e. computers sold to individuals) have only one ethernet port?

Re:Missing feature

[catdevnull]

Now why would Apple put a second ethernet port in a low-end consumer product designed to keep costs LOW when they don't put a second ethernet port in ANY of their machines (except XServe)? If you want a firewall or router, build a cheap PC and do it with Linux (i.e., Smoothwall, etc.) I think this is not as much a "missing feature" as much as it is you're missing the point, IMHO.

Re:Missing feature

[Slashdot Insider]

Well excuse me for wanting to use this for a router. The only problem with my old PC hardware is that mine is ATX-sized in tower form that is not exactly the quietest nor smallest thing in the world. Excuse me for wanting to do something more with the new Mini.

Re:Missing feature

[lieven_dekeyser]

Build in the airport extreme card, and use it as a wireless router?
You've been meaning to get rid of those messy cables anyway, right?

Re:Missing feature

[catdevnull]

Sorry, dude. I wasn't trying to be condescending but I just don't think that's a) the best use of a Mini and b) Apple's idea of its use. I don't think it will happen--though there are USB/Ethernet adapters that might help you have your router afterall! (Just don't tell Steve!)

The BriQ" might be a better choice for this application. They list for $1400 but I bet you can find 'em on eBay for the price of a new Mini. There's also some other small, cheap, and quiet x86 boxes out there for about the same price.

Stream is up!

[Val314]

http://stream.apple.akadns.net/

(but the audio had some glitches at ~50minutes.. maybe they'll repost a fixed .mov)

Re:Stream is up!

[adpowers]

Yeah, a bunch of us in the dorm were watching it, until around 53 minutes or so when they started demoing iMovie HD. Then it kept crashing my QuickTime and it seems the rest of the movie's audio is corrupted. Someone gave me a link to download the file directly, but it stopped part way through (and was only downloading at like 15 kBps max).

i'm surprised... this doesn't suck.

[httpamphibio.us]

normally when apple releases new products everyone gushes about them and i'm normally pretty disappointed. i know when you buy apple, you pay for the industrial design, but i've never really been impressed with what they do. the ipod and ipod mini don't do it for me... and i've always thought the computers are way overpriced.

i have to say that at first glance i'm pretty impressed with what i see here. the ipod shuffle looks to be a pretty good idea. not much more than a usb thumb drive, the price is a little much, but not absurd.

the mac mini is somewhat the same thing. the price isn't super hot, but it looks to be a step in the right direction in terms of apple's product line. good size, good value...

i hope to see apple keep going in this direction and broadened their horizons by marketing to everyone, not just people that want to be trendy and to those that think the whole "it just works" thing still applies.

Re:i'm surprised... this doesn't suck.

[zpok]

"i hope to see apple keep going in this direction and broadened their horizons by marketing to everyone, not just people that want to be trendy and to those that think the whole "it just works" thing still applies. "

Ok, not to flame you down, but you don't think the whole "it just works" thing doesn't apply anymore? In who's universe, XP heaven or OS X heaven? Or another one?

Imo the mac is still the only computer that give you the most "it just works" experience out of the box and after a year or two of use and abuse. Name one hardware/software experience that comes close - for those same people you're talking about, everyone, not just IT professionals, geeks and programmers.

This is not about computer religion, but about what you wish upon your neigbour (taking into account that you most probably will have to remove malware and virii, do updates, introduce the concept of backups, connect their sh*t be it camera's or headphones, ...).

And for your information, the last time I felt trendy must have been oh easily 10 years ago. Buying an iPod won't help me there. :-)

Re:At this size it almost certainly uses 2.5" driv

[Phillup]

If it is just going in a closet to be a file server, he is probably better off buying the smaller drive.

Keep the OS on the factory drive.

Buy an external USB drive (or better yet... a drive enclosure and supply your own drives) and keep your data there.

Use a format on the disks that will be readable if the "server" dies.

iDVD to support external DVD recorders?

[SethJohnson]

In the specs for the iMac mini, they specifically spell out the iLife software bundle. In it, they mention iDVD. This is very curious considering that iDVD only (currently) supports Apple-branded "superdrives". The iMac mini does not offer a superdrive, but it does have a firewire port that someone could connect an external 3rd party dvd recorder to....

Could Apple be preparing to support non-Apple DVD recorders in iDVD?!?! I hope so.

Re:iDVD to support external DVD recorders?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a $100 Superdrive upgrade (at the online Apple store) available for the mini Mac. That might be what they were talking about.

Re:iDVD to support external DVD recorders?

[capsteve]

mini is offering 4x superdrive as a built to order option.
i got this drive lite-on 16x dvd+r drive from newegg. used http://www.patchburn.de/ to make it compatible with "i-apps"... installed it into my aging G4, so far it's working with itunes and iphoto(imove and idvd not tested yet), no complaints.

Re:iDVD to support external DVD recorders?

[SethJohnson]

DIdn't see the BTO option for the superdrive. Thanks for the heads-up. idvd will not run when you don't have a superdrive. When iDVD 1.0 was released, someone wrote a hack to circumvent this. Haven't seen a hack for iDVD 2.0 and above.... damn.

Appreciatively,

Re:iDVD to support external DVD recorders?

[aristotle-dude]

There is a hack. Look around for it. There are two resource files that you stick in our home directory. I don't know if it will still work with iLife 05 but it does work with iLife 04 and my external Sony DVD burner.

Re:iDVD to support external DVD recorders?

[grrrl]

idvd works if you dont have a superdrive, you just cant burn

in the keynote speech steve said that the new idvd will support "all the dvd formats" ie dvd-r dvd+R -Rw/+RW "if your drive will support it"

that to me sounds like they will support other dvd recorders

Re:iDVD to support external DVD recorders?

[SethJohnson]

Cool!! Thanks. I'll look for it.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a price on the UK apple store. But I forgot what it was, so you'll have to check. I think the 512 MB one was about 70-80 squid..

Looks Around

[Daegalus]

>.>
<.<
oO
Oo
*Buys all of them*

Question about mac keyboards.

[mindstrm]

The current mac keyboard, the white one with the transparent backing.... I think it sucks.

It's solid enough, well built, and all that

but

- no key click
- shallow key travel
- not enough taper, keys too close together

Now, it could be just me.. but I type rather fast, and I'm comfortable on almost any keyboard that doesn't suck. I can fly on my ibook keyboard, my little vaio z505 keyboard I was fast on too. Normal pc keyboards, etc. But the new mac keyboard seems to be totally unacceptable. So my question is:

Does apple have any other keyboards that don't suck?

Re:Question about mac keyboards.

[Cmdr TECO]

Apple doesn't, but someone else does. Real switches.

Any USB keyboard will work. I use an ADB keyboard with a USB adapter.

Re:Question about mac keyboards.

[chrome]

I have one of these keyboards. Actually using it to type this right now.

I love it. Its the best keyboard ever made. One of the keys sticks sometimes and its loud and clacky ... and I love it. It feels like I'm actually typing something, not mushing my fingers on some sponges.

Re:Question about mac keyboards.

[Thu25245]

I hate the current Apple keyboard too. In addition to the points you raise, the keyboard will not lie flat (keeps the wrists straight, more ergonomic than the angle most people set their keyboards to.)

Kensington has a line of mac-style keyboards, including an US$80 model with mechanical (metal spring) switches.

Note that the only difference between a "Mac keyboard" and any other keyboard are the labels and positions of the keys (Return, Apple/Command, Option.) You can use a standard PC USB keyboard with a Mac, if you're willing to acommodate those differences.

Re:Question about mac keyboards.

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. I used one of those in a store for 5 minutes and have wanted it ever since. Some day I'll own a desktop again and get myself a tactile pro... mmmm.....

One thing at a time.

[solios]

If you haven't noticed, we've just now gotten the word processor, after Keynote's been around for awhile. Give it some time. :P

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[libra-dragon]

licence the Mac to clone builders again..

Yeah that's a great idea considering the success of the iPod "clone" builders (e.g. Creative, Rio, iRiver).

Why license when you can dominate instead.

Mac Mini network intrusion detection

[sellers]

Hrmm. These things seem perfect for setting in a remote closet and doing network intrusion or packet monitoring. They are realitively cheap, are all put together w/ OS (unlike the small boxes that you build yourself).

I wonder if this will get into the interprise market. Maybe Apple could sell a stripped down version w/ a hardened OS on it and a web or SSH interface for just such a purpose. I see this formfactor becoming more than just a headless Mac desktop....

It's $58 as an option on the new Mac mini

[blorg]

...that's for keyboard and mouse. The Apple Store appears to have collapsed under the interest, so I can't check your link, $29 each for keyboard and mouse could be right I guess. I think you get free shipping on the Mac mini (and the keyboard if you buy it together) so that might be your best option.

World of Warcraft party

[SuperKendall]

Imagine a World of Warcraft party where you could all play in one room - this box is perfect for that.

Or it would even be decent for a UT2004 party. You don't nessicarily need the most powerful box at a LAN party, just something that can play.

I'll bet this box just pushed back the release date of Mac Doom 3 though, they were already complaining about Mac hardware but they would not want to miss this market...

Re:World of Warcraft party

[mad.frog]

Imagine a World of Warcraft party where you could all play in one room - this box is perfect for that.

Is it? I see that it meets the minimum requirements for WoW on the Mac, but will it run it well? In particular, will a 32MB video card provide decent graphics, or would it be one of those usual painful "minimum" specs that will run, but horribly?

Re:World of Warcraft party

[falcon5768]

WoW runs well on my 900mhz iBook G3.... trust me it will run well.

Re:The killer problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Killer problem? The specs say:

S-video and composite video output to connect directly to a TV or projector (requires Apple DVI to Video Adapter, sold separately)

Mod Parent Down

[ProudClod]

As much as I hate to do this, he's just plain wrong. It can play on shuffle mode, or a preset, and you can skip forwards and backwards with the keys.

wrong audience

[Dink Paisy]

I doubt we are the audience. First, we are more likely to consider memory and processor speed important. The limit of one gigabyte and a 1.4 GHz G4 PowerPC processor are both major disadvantages to a geek audience.

As for the OS, you are right, I didn't factor it in. Once you add $120 Canadian for an OEM copy of Windows XP you are around the same price as the Mini Mac. I do expect piracy of the operating system on systems like the whitebox AMD I compared to, but even including a legal copy of Windows, the PC at worst goes to price parity.

The size of the Mini Mac is very nice, but that isn't something that most people think about when buying a computer. The volume is probably smaller than many laptops, even if you sliced off the display and keyboard. I don't see that being a decidng factor to many people, though.

I think your points are good, but I still don't think the Mini Mac will be compelling to a large enough audience to materially affect Apple's success.

Re:wrong audience

[Nephilium]

Yep, we will consider the processor and memory limitaitons, but I'll also consider the price point. I'm not willing to drop almost $1000 (US) to have a Mac to play around with. But for $500, I'll consider it. (Alright, we'll make it $580 to bump the memory up to 512... I'm not that masochistic... :) ) You can't even find an old ebay-ed Mac for that much.

The size and noise level (supposedly) are both other little perks that make me interested in it. I'm also wondering how well something like this would work as a little file server or firewall. (Yes I know, I could build a cheaper PC compatible to do it, but I wouldn't be able to get something that small/quiet (supposedly) easily.)

Do I think it will be a Mini-Mac in every house? Nope, do I think it's a swank and nifty little toy I may need to pick up? Yep.

Nephilium

Re:wrong audience

[Gumph]

The potential audience for this product is everyone on the planet!!!!

Think about it, for this low price you are getting a VERY capable system that will appeal to more or less everyone except the true hardcore PC gamers. Even huge Geeks who have SGI superclusters as their main workstation can get one of these as a second computer. They can be used as a media centre, as a web surfing appliance, a normal desktop for mum/grandma or dad/grandad, as a headless linux server, probably some bright spark will come up with an easy to use cluster solution soon.
Even those hardcore gamers can use one to do their surfing on and not compromise their XP rig with all the malware IE surfing can bring down on them.
How many times have you heard someone say 'Yeah I would buy a mac but only if they come down in price!' Now they have and Apple are in for some VERY exciting times.

Re:wrong audience

[bhtooefr]

Keep it at stock RAM when you order, and upgrade later. Apple totally rips you off on RAM prices.

That said, once I get some money, this may just be the thing to move me to Apple. I've wanted to try a Mac for a while, now, and this is cheap, and can use hardware that I already own.

Re:wrong audience

[llefler]

I'm not convinced we aren't part of the demographic they are targeting. You want to compare to white-box no OS machines, and we are definately the target there. We are the ones that recommend systems to friends and relatives. We help them set them up and keep them running.

If you want to get right down to low priced computing, take a look at the deals Dell offers on their Poweredge 420 SCs. I've purchased 3 of the previous model 400 SC for an average price of $300. (home server, desktop, and PVR) And they run Linux just fine while contributing no $$$ to Microsoft. Although you can put Windows on them if you really want to.

But I'm not looking at this Mac as a low priced entry machine. And I seriously doubt that I would ever upgrade it (after kicking the ram to 512) any more than I will consider upgrading my laptop. I'm looking at it as a way to get exposure to OS X and the Apple way of doing things. And if it's low maintenance, it might be the right type of system to recommend to some of my relatives. FWIW, my mom has a 75 Mhz Pentium running OS/2 and a 2.8g Compaq laptop. Both get used equally, and the new laptop was my idea because I know that old OS/2 box is way past due to die. Her toughest requirements are AOL and Colonization (DOS). If this is an out-of-the-box, just-plain-works machine it would be ideal for people like her. (I just need to get her hooked on a newer game.) I can't say I'm looking forward to spending half a day updating her laptop (XP) when she finally installs broadband in the next month or so. Hmmm, I wonder if AOL runs under Wine....

No, but...

[SuperKendall]

It is screenLESS! Another feature.

I'm not sure if they are planning on having a screen though, which would be the next logical step.

NOT MY POST, ya goof! THE PARENT! :P

[objekt]

Mod the parent (grandparent to this one) up! Geeez! lol

Power brick and size correction.

[JQuick]

The power supply appears to be about twice the size of the standard apple power brick (those nice square ones used by powerbooks, ibooks, and ipods.). It is rectangular rather than square and the cord appears to be long enough to enable you to place it in an unobtrusive location.

BTW: I had originally cut and pasted the wrong dimensions.
The unit is 6.5x6.5x2".

ob/. -- I'd like to see a Beowulf stack of these

[mblase]

The thing is, it's really got everything. Obviously it's targetted as a replacement--it assumes you've already got a keyboard, mouse and monitor that you can just unplug from your PC and plug into this. VGA? Got it. DVD burner option for the real "iDVD is SO cool" experience? Got it. Bluetooth and Airport support for the ultimate wireless experience? Got it. FireWire and/or USB2 for your iPod? Got both of those.

Want the peripherals? No problem, buy a one-piece iMac instead.

You'd think it junk because it's got so little, but in fact it's got EVERYTHING you need to make full use of iLife (and iWork) at a price that can make people really think about switching. I never, ever would have thought to build something like this. It's nice to see Apple is still on the cutting edge.

iPod shuffle great for commuters...

[SuperKendall]

The iPod shuffle seems like a cheap way for commuters to replace radio - load up a podcast or two and a few songs, you are good for the drive to and from work. And you can also drag a few documents along the way.

"Student Teacher" edition....

[Anonymous Coward]

...as far as I can tell, is as fully-featured as the basic-to-advanced user needs. I need Office Mac at home for easy swappability at pc-obsessed work, and I haven't found any differences at all between my "full" (or "Pro") version on the pc and the "Student Teacher" edition on my Mac.

If there are big differences, they must be buried deep inside the nasty submenus where Word starts to take over the writing process and you have to wrestle with it to regain control. So, I don't miss any "pro" features....

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[CaptDeuce]

Well now that's it's true...damn, even I might buy one!

I'm sorely tempted myself. It promises to be a wonderful machine for its intended audience. BUT, I would strongly suggest adding $125 for a base configuration:

* As usual, Apple skimps on stock RAM. Only 256MB? Add $75 at the Apple Store to bring it to a passable 512MB.

* Given the RAM configurations available at the Apple Store -- 256MB, 512MB, 1GB, each 1 DIMM -- it appears there is only one DIMM slot in the machine. However ...

* if you choose to upgrade the RAM on your own, you'll pretty much want to drop in 1 GB (+/- $180 at current prices; Apple wants $425) and be done with it. Feed the stock 256MB DIMM to your dog.

* If Apple follows precedent, you can only get internal Bluetooth from the factory via special order or pre-configured retail; you can't install it later.

As for other options, they can be fleshed out with spare gear (monitor, keyboard, and rodent) or as more gear (or money) become available. But buying a fully tricked out system? Better off buying an iMac G5 or your choice.

Which is exactly what Apple wants. Well done.

The idea is obviously to try and penetrate into the mid range market; make the Mac an everymans computer. If they can do it, and if they can increase their market share,

Spot on.

they would certainly seem to have enough room to manovour and licence the Mac to clone builders again.

While they could, I still think it's unlikely. The single best way to ensure that the software works properly is to design your own hardware. Outsource the manufacturing and ... that pretty much describes Apple's situation right now.

It is not now, nor is it ever likely to be in Apple's interest to follow Microsoft's business model. But that's another topic that's been rehashed to excess. In brief, Apple sells software be it Mac OS, iLife, or music in order to sell high margin hardware: Macs and iPods. Any branching out on Apple's part will be in addition to Macs and iPods.

don't all of you buy that gateway at once...

[overbom]

Yup, I looked at your Gateway link. $150 rebate, integrated video with shared memory (consume up to 1/4 of your main memory!), CD-ROM drive, roughly 18x (up to 26x) the volume of space taken up on the desk, monitor not included. If you don't see a $150 cost difference here, I'm glad you're not in this market. Enjoy your new Gateway!

$500 is pretty cheap for a comparable mini-itx system, which your comparison (if it's intended to be fair) should take note of. You always pay extra for miniaturization.

"Inexpensive, But Never Cheap"

[VariableSanity]

Quote from Apple http://www.apple.com/macmini/

Prediction: The MacMini will kill the eMac

[willutah]

Why would anyone buy the eMac now? It was the budget mac, but an all-in-one design is not an advantage. If your monitor dies on an eMac, it will cost a lot more to repair than simply swapping out the monitor of your MacMini.

Re:Prediction: The MacMini will kill the eMac

[ZENMacster]

You are correct, for the home user the mac mini will beat relentlessly upon the eMac's already dead corpse. eMac is still a nice fit in school labs since they are more theft resistant. Picking an eMac up (has no handles) is like hoisting up a greased water mellon.

Cheers,

Re:Prediction: The MacMini will kill the eMac

[Kyusaku Natsume]

The schools would still buying it:
- it's far harder to steal,
- the eMac sports a tempered (sp?) glass that protect the CRT-important for the safety of kids-
- is easy to keep clean
- the all-in-one design helps to keep the classroom's desks clener, only one power cord per machine.
- In the case of CRT failure, always the schools buy support contracts anyway (or sould, regardless of vendor).
- And last, the eMac uses common optical drives and HD, the two components of a computer more prone to failure or to need a upgrade.

store.apple.com

[Jeff Carr]

I pulled this off Netcraft, and thought it was kind of interesting.

store.apple.com

11 Jan 2005, Solaris, Netscape-Enterprise/3.6 SP3
05 Jan 2005, MacOSX, Apache/1.3.27 (Darwin)
05 Jan 2005, MacOSX, Apache/1.3.27 (Darwin)
04 Jan 2005, Solaris 8, Apache/1.3.27 (Darwin)

I wonder whether they switched before or after they got nailed today?

Re:store.apple.com

[BawbBitchen]

Apple has a whole ton of Foundry Server Irons for load balancers. Sometimes this make what NetCraft say screwy. Last time I check they ran Xserves w/Apache. However, at some point they do outsouce stuff for overload via DNS redirection.

Re:store.apple.com

[Anonymous Coward]

They use Akamai for their load balancing and distributed caching system, but I was under the impression Akamai used Linux for that.

Re:store.apple.com

[BawbBitchen]

Only the images are offloaded to Akamai. The HTML, storeand such are, AFAIK, on Xserves behind Foundry Server Irons.

iTunes AutoFill in 4.7.1 -- For iPodShuffle only?

[WCityMike]

Can anyone advise whether iTunes 4.7.1's AutoFill feature works only for the iPod Shuffle or whether it works for all iPods? It'd be sweet if it took care of my iPod Mini, but given Apple's history of quickly abandoning older generations of iPod users, I wouldn't be surprised if it's not available.

Re:The one mouse button

[kaustik]

Excellent example. The first thing that came to my mind was the various Active Directory MMCs, but I guess that doesn't really apply here...

PC USB Keyboards

[jonv]

So Apple hope switchers will use existing keyboards and mice - makes sense for the mice but a typical PC keyboard would not have all the right keys for mac use ?

Re:PC USB Keyboards

[zpok]

The only difference would be the control and command keys, which on a mac are switched (or on a pc, whatever).

Which actually is very convenient, since most command-insert key shortcuts for mac are control-insert key shortcuts on PC. eg Command-P for print on mac and Control-P for print on a PC.

The keys may be different, but since the placing is switched, you're not really apt to notice.

Cool, no?

Re:PC USB Keyboards

[s_mencer]

With the second button on a usb "pc" mouse, you won't really need the special apple keys on the keyboard.

Re:The one mouse button

[mindstrm]

You can achieve the same effect with option-click.

Yes, contextual menus are handy, and a good way to do things, however, they aren't strictly necessary.

Apple doesn't hate multiple button mice, they just try to push a design wehre the second button augments the experience, but isn't required.

When you click a link in firefox, it should do whatever it's been set up to do according to your preferences.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[sysadmn]

So the iPod costs more than the computer you buy to use it with? Dang, Steve is clever.

Ways to keep beefing up the digital hub!

[mclaincausey]

Apple iControl a Bluetooth or 802.11 remote control compatible with AirTunes/iTunes/TiVO Employs a click wheel in addition to programmable standard remote keys. ...or an 802.11 or BT compatible iPod, which is compatible with all of the above... Can navigate iTunes library and TiVO from iPod screen or TV screen. Also can connect to iTunes Music Store on any open WiFi network. Imagine being able to control your stereo/tv from any room in the house via a click wheel.

UK £679 shipping 29th Jan

[deagle]

Price is the total with the necessary, 512Mb, 80gb HDD, Faster processor, wireless keyboard, BT, Wireless ethernet and superdrive. Excluding a monitor.

Seems expensive ? How about a Nanode?.... ah but these are now Q2 / 05.

Re:UK £679 shipping 29th Jan

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that the UK prices are a ripoff (like most prices here)... but there's no way a faster processor, wireless keyboard, bluetooth, wireless ethernet or a superdrive can be described as necessary for most people. Nice, yes.. but not necessary.

Re:It's over a decade since I last had a Mac, but.

[InstantCool]

It includes OS X 10.3 and iLife.

Digital Audio Out?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Mac mini would be a great candidate as a HTPC if it were not for the lack of digital audio out and an I.R. detector.

Kewl, but I'd wait until Tiger's released....

[otis wildflower]

... Why bother paying another $129?

Also, is minimac fanless? Jes' curious..

(Looks like my cube may get on ebay after all ;)

Re:Kewl, but I'd wait until Tiger's released....

[burns210]

Yes. It is hush quiet and fanless.

Re:Kewl, but I'd wait until Tiger's released....

[Juanvaldes]

no, it has a fan in the back.

Imagine a beowolf cluster...

[AaronStJ]

No, seriously. Imagine a cluster of the Mac Minis. They're tiny. They're stackable. All of the holes are conveniently to access. As you can see from the smarmy graphic on the design page, you can stack about 7 Mac Minis up in the space taken up by just one tower PC. These things are perfect for clustering. The only thing really holding you back in the 100 megabit ethernet (no gigabit, unfortunately), but it does have a firewire 400 port. Even with the slowish networking, these things would still be ideal for many clustering applications.

cheap memory upgrade by apple

[Me2005]

THere is a way to do it at Crucial's prices when you go to your local Apple Store to buy your Mac Mini/Powerbook/G5/etc... just take a printout with the cheapest memory you found online and Apple will price match it (I got a powerbook with 512 Mbs, in-store price-matched)

RTFD

[5n3ak3rp1mp]

uh, didja even *bother* to read the specs on it before you knee-jerk posted? it has a sequential mode. They only emphasize the random playlist bit because it maximizes the relatively small amount of space on it. Justifiably so, I think.

mod parent down as poo.

upgrade options

[lucas teh geek]

well, like many people, this is the mac that will finally get me owning one but after having a look on streetwise.com.au (the first 3rd party australian mac seller i came across) at the prices of adding a larger hdd + ram + wireless card im left thinking that perhaps the apple warrenty isnt that valuable after all.

is there anything special to note when upgrading a mac or can i throw a standard pc hdd in there?

is the ram some special type that im not going to find at normal pc shops?

how about the wireless card? does this thing only take apples airport card or whatever they call it or can i buy generic ones?

Re:upgrade options

[easter1916]

The wireless card is likely a custom card -- looks like a PC Card but isn't. At least that was the case with my iBook. The RAM is common DDR RAM, as are the drives used.

Re:upgrade options

[mkarpinski]

1) The Mac mini uses a standard 3.5" (laptop) Ultra ATA hard drive

2) The Mac mini uses standard PC2700 DDR SDRAM

3) You need to use and Apple Airport Extreme Card

HOWEVER -- None of these items are considered user installable upgrades. You need to configure these upgrades when you buy the machine or risk voiding your warranty.

Re:upgrade options

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure that the hard drive is a standard 3.5"?
Im thinking about throwing my old dell out for good, and only using a mac mini, but Ive got to have a decently sized (>200Gb) disk in it.

Does anyone know if the apple superdrives are dual layer compatible, btw?

Full-Blown Comparison vs. Dell Dimension 2400

[BlueDjinn]

I went with a $600 shootout instead of $500 to make sure that some obvious add-ons were included with each model, but the new Mac mini holds up surprisingly well!!

$600 Desktop Apple/Dell System Shootout

Re:kvm switch

[asdren]

good idea. what's a cheap but sexay KVM switch.
OK I just want a cheap one.

Elgato EyeTV 500

[daveschroeder]

HD and SD tuner
Nice PVR and tuning software (EyeTV)
Free guide
Free CyTV lets you stream to any other machine using VLC
Does OTA (antenna), analog cable, and, as of today, unencrypted QAM digital cable!
Ignores the Broadcast Flag!

See: http://www.eff.org/broadcastflag/eyetv500.php

Re: mouse button

[R@Bastard]

I disagree. Not with the windows critique, per-se, but with your other point.

Fitt's law, which the mac zealots love to quote, says that the easiest thing to operate on the screen is the one that you have to move the shortest distance to.

Well, right under where your mouse already is, is the shortest: zero. Right-click makes that location accessible for more than one operation.

This is a good thing.

In general, I think a good ui designer will make an area have one primary purpose, and correspond that to the normal "click". Right-click should function as a sort of "what else can I do with this area".

To say that right click is a kludge that the mac designers simply out-designed around is a tough position to defend... especially since they do have extensive right-click support and it makes all of their apps easier to use.

Re:At this size it almost certainly uses 2.5" driv

[CdBee]

looking at the design I'd say there could easily be a 3.5 inch drive in there

interior image @ apple.com

My AST century city has an equally crammed design and managed to hide a 3.5-inch drive under a laptop CD drive, as here.

I think it's stupid to alwa

[Anonymous Coward]

"I think it's stupid to always gear computers towards the LCD of the utter n00b."

Then buy a powermac or an xserve.

iDwarves

[Anonymous Coward]

iOwe, iOwe. It's off to work iGo ...

New iBook!

[Cyn]

Today Apple announced two new portable devices with extremely limited input and no displays.

The ipod shuffle - a usb pendrive ipod!

The mac mini - an iBook without its keyboard or display!

I agree it's cool, proprietary hardware has the ability to make things nice and tiny - but really ... it's all laptop components. Take the average base of a laptop, cut it in half, stack - you have your macmini*.

*some additional modifications required for functionality.

Re:New iBook!

[zpok]

"I agree it's cool, proprietary hardware has the ability to make things nice and tiny - but really ... it's all laptop components. Take the average base of a laptop, cut it in half, stack - you have your macmini*."

Yeah, that Volvo looks nice, but really, it's all just car components...

Re:The one mouse button

[jfw25]

Because the Firefox developers followed the Mac user interface guidelines on the Mac version, when you click a link in Firefox with a one-button mouse, it performs the action most commonly expected -- open the page in the current tab. If you click AND HOLD, or if you press the control key, it brings up a contextual menu which offers you a wealth of other choices (new window, new tab, download, bookmark, ...).

Many people find the hold-down-one-button paradigm to be easier to learn and use than multiple buttons. Other people find having multiple buttons easier to learn than multiple actions with the same button. Curse Apple for trying to make their computers useful to both kinds of users!

Mac mini memory problem

[dogmatixpsych]

From Apple's website: Memory upgrade must be performed by an Apple Authorized Service provider.

Sounds like they don't want you to open the white box at all. This probably means that if you try to add your own RAM to the computer your warranty will be void. This is not very nice since it costs $100 to upgrade to 512 Mb.

Just add USB Ethernet

[Kurrelgyre]

Add a USB hub and a USB ethernet and you're off. Seeing as how it's got 2 High-speed USB ports, you should be all set.

Re:Just add USB Ethernet

[Slashdot Insider]

Yeah I'm just a bit concerned with how much of a drag a USB ethernet adapter would be on the system. My concern mostly stems from the fact that USB is a crappy bus. I assume that hooking the WAN to the USB2 port would be better.

Educational Discounts

[Nasarius]

FYI...

Apple's educational discount knocks the price down by $20 to $479. The upgrade to 512MB RAM is just $67, so for $546, you get a 1.25GHz G4 with 512MB DDR333 RAM. I think I'll go with that. All the other upgrades are still a little too expensive.

Re:Educational Discounts

[Anonymous Coward]

You might want to consider the bluetooth option, if it's like any other Mac that I've seen you can't add it in later, you can however add in Airport Express at a later date.

Re:Educational Discounts

[WiseWeasel]

There are always the $20 USB bluetooth adapters (which are all compatible with OSX)... that's what I did.

Re:Educational Discounts

[Anonymous Coward]

This is true. There's just not a lot of bandwidth to be shared though, but according to the Mac Mini page it says that Bluetooth or Airport can be added in later at an Authorized Apple Service Provider.

TV output

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the only thing that that lil box is missing. One S-Video output and it would have been a *perfect* little set top box. Ah well...

Re:TV output

[Anonymous Coward]

$20 will get you the adapter.

now I can junk my jury-rigged powermac 8500

[Anonymous Coward]

and buy a mini!

I'm so happy I can almost double my cpu speed and clear off the desk space for less than it would cost me to yet again go to the sonnettech well and band-aide an upgrade.

Re:Mac Mini - how many can they produce?

[Anonymous Coward]

sell millions? well i hope so. but they have to be able to manufacture and product millions first. apple hasn't been good at that in the past.

iMac mini = repackaged iBook motherboard?

[calstraycat]

I was comparing the specs of iBooks and the iMac mini. The only differences seem to be a slightly higher bus speed and clock speed plus faster RAM. Other than that, the specs are roughly the same.

Anyone else think maybe Apple just repackaged the iBook's motherboard and turned up the speed a bit?

Re:iMac mini = repackaged iBook motherboard?

[Magic5Ball]

Anyone else think maybe Apple just repackaged the iBook's motherboard and turned up the speed a bit?

No, since the memory form factors are different, as is the port configuration, and there's the obvious problem of fitting a 10"x5" iBook logic board into a space with half that area...

Re:iMac mini = repackaged iBook motherboard?

[calstraycat]

Doh. I guess I should have compared the dimensions before opening my mouth. That thing is damn small, huh?

Re:iMac mini = repackaged iBook motherboard?

[Cmdr TECO]

There are some differences besides the shape -- faster bus, PC2700 333MHz vs PC2100 266MHz RAM -- but not many.

Unfortunately there's no tech note for it yet.

Doing Fine?

[meehawl]

Even without the Mac Mini they were doing fine.

How exactly is declining in market share by ~50% over the past 5 years "doing fine"?

Re:Doing Fine?

[ctid]

How exactly is declining in market share by ~50% over the past 5 years "doing fine"?

I read this, over at The Register only today. Half way down, Orlowski says:

It's true that Apple's market share is stuck at three per cent with any wobbles in downward direction, but these tend to be both temporary and so inconclusive. Although well down from the nine per cent share Apple enjoyed in the early 1990s, the users have remained remarkably steady in the past five years of turmoil and provided the company with enough revenue to complete its extremely expensive migration to a new operating system (complete) and a new hardware architecture (getting there) while turning in reliable profits every quarter.

This fits in pretty well with my perception of Apple. A small, but fanatical market share. These people are not going away, and this is a very pretty and fairly cheap machine. Hundreds of thousands of mac owners are going to buy Mac Minis; of this there can be no doubt. The question is, what about iPod owners? My guess is that they are going to pick up these machines in droves, especially as those "first PCs" start to get tired or slow down because of all the crapware that accumulates on them. I believe that this is going to be a huge seller for Apple.

Re:Doing Fine?

[biggyfries]

obviously, you have not heard of the iPod....

10 million and counting. i would say they are doing pretty good. and, with these new products (hardware and software), they will reach more customers in more income brackets.

One last question before I buy the mac mini

[roror]

How am I supposed to connect my digital camera to this mini, when I have my mouse and keyboard plugged into the 2 USB slots? It seems like they are saying Mouse, Keboard, digital camera - choose two.

Re:One last question before I buy the mac mini

[wheatwilliams]

You can buy a four-port external USB hub for $20 or less, and plug it into one of the four ports. That would give you 5 ports altogether. You can get an 8-port USB hub for only a few dollars more.

Or you can get the Bluetooth option for connecting wireless Bluetooth peripherals such as cordless mouse and keyboard, certain cell phones and digital cameras, certain PDAs like Palm and Blackberry, etc.

Re:One last question before I buy the mac mini

[SamSeaborn]

If you get an Apple keyboard, it has two USB ports on it. Plug your camera in there.

Sam

The Ultimate 2nd iPod

[NotPeteMcCabe]

Another person the iPod shuffle is for is my wife. I already have an iPod 20GB for myself, which we use when we're together. But for the times she's by herself (her commute, mostly), she could really use this. Instead of hauling CDs in and out of the car she can just plug this into my Powerbook once a week and fill it up. 240 songs will easily last a week of driving.

This will be the ultimate 2nd iPod for couples with one iPod.

(Don't overlook the new Autofill feature -- it's crucial to this device/usage.)

Re:The Ultimate 2nd iPod

[ssstraub]

How are you connecting the iPod shuffle to the car stereo? Is there a jack on the front of your stereo ? I am considering this for my car as well.

Please don't tell me you use an awful cassette adapter...

Re:The Ultimate 2nd iPod

[Anonymous Coward]

Cassette adapter works fine when you consider that road noise drowns out any benefit you might get from going direct.

That said, my wife's car has an AUX jack in the back of the head unit for the factory optional CD changer. I pulled it out, installed a custom cable to connect to the jack on one end and with a 1/8" stereo plug on the other. Cable comes out through a little storage cubby below the head unit. Also had to install a switch hooked up to a 12 volt fuse and wired to one of the pins on the AUX connector, which puts the head unit in AUX mode. Works great!

For my car, cassette adapter is just fine. :p

Re:The Ultimate 2nd iPod

[NotPeteMcCabe]

Heaven forfend! I 'm not telling you I use a cassette adapter. I'm telling you my wife would use a cassette adapter. I've heard that at Best Buy there's a $100 car stereo with line in, but I can't verify this. Neither of my cars has line-in. It was a stretch for me to buy the iPod, and I got it for $70(!). Are you going to suggest an FM transmitter? Or something I haven't considered?

notes

[a984]

a) OSX is heavily disk dependent, if this is 5200RPM forget it. Really.

b) 7200RPM/60GB 2.5 drives (if that's what this takes) can be had for 150USD, very tight but better than nothing.

d) lack of 5.1 is a minus. Next iteration?. No audio in? Again!

e) 1GB can be had for 85USD (Apple $400+), but again how do you open that case?

f) size of that power brick?

g) opening the case is the problem - all those plastic latches. Somebody needs to make a cheap opening tool and sell it to 3rd party memory/drive sellers a buck a piece so they can be included with purchase.

h) good robust and good looking USB and Fire hubs badly needed for this baby.

Re:notes

[arminw]

...Somebody needs to make a cheap opening tool...

This computer is not made for the /. hardware hacker, such as you, but for the average Joe Consumer who has a Wintel box and maybe an ipod and has often wondered about the Mac, but not enough to spend a bunch of cash on. Joe consumer would not care to open this computer any more than his TV or DVD player nor upgrade any of his electronic boxes. When enough Joe Consumers find out that their Mac just works and doesn't get all the malware that Wintel users can be plagued by, Apple may sell a lot of these little boxes. None of the Apple products is all that much fun for a /. hardware enthusiast.

EAT is a bad word in UK..

[slashkitty]

They make a lot of normal US words into sexual references. Pants for example refer to panties in the UK.

Re:EAT is a bad word in UK..

[troc]

Erm not quite pants are what you US-types would call underpants, briefs. i.e. the clothing blokes wear under ther trousers :)

Panties are something to do with women which is possibly why you are all confused :) Thongs (Strings in Holland...) would be a subset of panties for example. Knickers, that sort of thing. Yes I know Aussies wear thongs on their feet.

It's late, sorry

Troc.

Re:EAT is a bad word in UK..

[MMeldrum]

At least on both sides of the atlantic we can agree that pants cover your fanny.

Re:Shuttle battery! Great otherwise...

[hayne]

This is the only real huge drawback I see to the Apple iPod line - non-replaceable rechargeable batteries

Try googling for: iPod battery
and you will find many 3rd-party iPod replacement battery suppliers in the ads on the right hand side.
And Apple does supply one as well: www.apple.com/batteries/replacements.html
No doubt there will soon be suppliers of replacement batteries for the iPod Shuttle as well.

I'm a JERK if I don't buy one

[SamSeaborn]

I screamed for a cheaper headless iMac 2 years ago then I bought a Dell, and I screamed for a cheaper headless iMac last August then I bought a Sony.

Finally they've listened. I don't really need a new computer right now ... but if I don't buy one I'll feel like a jerk. Great work Apple!

In fact, if the Apple online store wasn't dead I've have "impulse" bought one already. I wonder how many sales their losing because their web site can't handle the traffic?

Sam

Can't use PS/2 mouse/keyboard directly

[sjonke]

It won't support PS/2 keyboards and mice out-of-the-box as it does not have those ports. However you can get a PS/2 to USB adapter from third parties.

Alternatively, when you order the Mac mini you can add an Apple keyboard and mouse package for $58 (wired), so not bad. No, it doesn't look like you can add just the keyboard - it's a package. You can buy the keyboard separately, but last I checked it was something like that price or more by itself!

Re:Can't use PS/2 mouse/keyboard directly

[nuggetman]

You can buy the keyboard separately, but last I checked it was something like that price or more by itself!


They're $29 each separate or $58 as a bundle
six in one, half a dozen in the other

Re:PC USB Keyboards? No problem.

[wheatwilliams]

Microsoft and Logitech make USB keyboards that have a special driver for Mac OS X to swap the Windows and Alt keys. I have been using a Microsoft Natural USB keyboard with my Mac for more than five years. In addition, Mac OS X10.3 supports two-button scroll wheel USB mice with no extra driver needed--unless you need left-handed. Then you need a driver. But again, Microsoft and Logitech provided Mac OS X drivers for all their products.

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[greenhide]

Maybe, but aside from Final Cut Pro, most of their software products are dirt cheap. They may have made some money on some of their software. Their power app, iTunes, is free because of its tie-in with the iTunes Music Store and the revenue from iPods.

I do think that Apple shines on software, but their entire company is pretty much centered on hardware sales. So to change that would be pretty hard. And as soon as you license a computer platform, that's it.

Let's look at IBM, shall we? They licenced the PC format. Everyone kept saying how this was a beneficial thing for IBM. Well, it was, in a way. But now, their hardware department is *gone*. Apple's has still stuck around, primarily because they've got a deathgrip on their hardware, and the software they design is just appealing enought to keep people coming back.

If you look at what Microsoft is trying to move into -- developing more media-centric software and trying to move out of being seen as mostly "officeware" -- I just don't think they're as successful, on a technology or marketing level, as Apple is.

Man, if only they could have done something with HyperCard. That could have been the powerapp to end all powerapps. If they had developed it through the growth of the Internet and made it have a flash-like player, it would probably be the #1 tool for developing online apps.

But nobody says anything about the Mac crash

[Anonymous Coward]

If this would be windows, everybody would be writing about it.

Re:But nobody says anything about the Mac crash

[nuckin futs]

his comment said it all "That's why we have backups."
no error messages...the app just did something it shouldn't have. he switched to the backup and continued on.

Re:But nobody says anything about the Mac crash

[tgibbs]

If this would be windows, everybody would be writing about it.

Beta software crashes! News at 11!

Re:But nobody says anything about the Mac crash

[xrissley]

Was'nt a crash.
I think that Steve activated a wrong button by clicking mistakenly on a Spotlight result option and iPhoto started the slide show, and as usual, it does a lot of image optimisation in the background, which makes it a bit unresponsive for a moment when starting.
Steve (and the audience) did not have the patience, he just switched (and oh so easily!) to back-up system.

Speaking of ADB...

[mjpaci]

I was trying to find some info on the development of ADB. I thought I read somewhere that, like ADC (apple display connector), it was a written standard that Apple (and only Apple) used and rebranded with their name.

I could've sworn that Intel or TI developed the ADB standard and didn't use it. Intel settled on PS/2 instead.

Please point me in the right direction.

--Mike

Re:Speaking of ADB...

[BandwidthHog]

I recall hearing that about ADB, too. I thought some Sun or SGI machines at one point had ADB ports back in the dark ages.

Re:Speaking of ADB...

[Anonymous Coward]

I know nothing of the ADB development factually, but I would guess that Apple Desktop Bus would be created by Apple.

One thing that was definitely TI created was NuBus. Apple was the biggest user of that standard.

Re:Speaking of ADB...

[mkldev]

TI might have been involved in ADB; I'm not sure. You're probably thinking of NuBus, though, which TI originally designed and Apple used for a long time. Apple and TI have collaborated a good bit over the years, working together on FireWire, for example.

However, you're actually wrong about it being only used by Apple. NeXT also used ADB. While NeXT is part of Apple now, it wasn't at the time....

A little trivia.... The first Apple computer with ADB was the Apple IIgs. It predated its introduction on the mac (in the Mac SE) by a year or so.

At the time, Apple probably could have used PS/2, but instead used their own standard that was far more flexible, and generally a much more intelligent bus. The ADB bus could support... I think 16 peripherals on the bus, complete with a device ID resolution mechanism, hot swappability, etc. Basically, it did most of what USB did, but a decade earlier, albeit at lower bandwidth and with a decidedly more linear signal path. ;-)

Very nice little bus for its time.... Way, way ahead of its time.... As usual, Apple creates and/or chooses a superior technology and everybody else chooses a less flexible, more CPU-intensive bus because it's cheaper. *Sigh*.

Re:Speaking of ADB...

[MacT]

It's a Woz thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Desktop_Bus

Re:Speaking of ADB...

[jcr]

NeXT also used the ADB on their later machines. I still use a NeXT ADB keyboard on my G5 tower (thanks to the Griffin iMate).

-jcr

Re:Speaking of ADB...

[hawk]

I can't point you to development, but in addition to the comments in the other posts, it wasn't "just apple." I had a wonderful Kensington adb trackball, and there were various other third party devices.

(OK, I still have it, but I've had to resolder the adb connectors to the motherboard, and they don't seem to be up to another repair).

Most devices other than actual mice had two connectors so that you could merrily daisy chain them.

hawk

Now really!

[zpok]

The first ever mac to come without keyboard and you insist on an apple keyboard?

Market Share: 2.7%. Who cares?

[wheatwilliams]

Who cares about market share?

Apple is a very profitable company with no debt and huge cash reserves.

They will never dominate the market but they will make a tidy profit selling their superior machines. What's wrong with that?

Re:Mac Mini doesn't have an audio-in jack connecto

[jlleblanc]

Of course: http://www.apple.com/macmini/accessories.html

No pretty pictures there

[mblase]

The thing that struck me while reading about iWork Pages was that they're really emphasizing the "great design, real easy" aspect of it, same as iLife always has. MS Word is about making great business documents; Pages is about making great-looking newsletters.

Additionally, Apple's got a long way to go before they can overtake MS in the business environment. Spreadsheets are mainly a business tool. Not much room in an Excel document for photos or sophisticated one-click text wrapping. (Yes, I know some people abuse Excel for documents it was never meant to process.) Home users who aren't bring their work home with them don't have much use for spreadsheets. Some, sure, but not much.

I don't think Apple is marketing iWork as an MS Office replacement--yet. There's too much functionality there for Apple to try and match it, and much of it is business-only. What they can do is take Office, pick out the multimedia-heavy apps, and make them prettier and easier to use.

Re:No pretty pictures there

[AutumnLeaf]

It's not like you can't buy MS Office for the Mac.

Re: Perfect Terminal -- for Windows!

[parvenu74]

The Mac Mini will be a perfect X-Terminal to use with a Linux box in another room...

Or it would also be great for connecting to your Windows boxes using the Windows Remote Desktop Connection Client for Mac. Supposedly one of the target audiences of Mac Mini are PC users who have an iPod; this will allow them to pull up a Windows terminal on the Mac without bothering to emulate hardare.

Also helps laptop users

[SuperKendall]

Do not forget that every Apple laptop sold has only a trackpad and single button. By having developers target a UI that can work well with one button and keyboard chording, it makes life much easier for laptop users.

I have always found it awkward to use right mouse buttons on Windows laptops.

Radio?

[siskbc]

I want a radio in my MP3 player because that is what I want. Why do you not want a radio in your MP3 player?

Because radio freaking sucks. AM is all talking morons, and FM is all mindless Clear Channel crap (and a few talking morons). And most people seem to agree, because no one's bought a portable radio *only* since, like, the 70's. Of all the features this didn't have, you're the only one to mention radio. Everyone else is either A) bitching about the thing not having a feature it actually does have, or B) bitching about it not having a screen. So no radio for you - the market has spoken.

I'm glad Apple didn't succumb to feature creep and include a feature that would have cost us all an extra, say, $10 and have pleased only you and like 3 other people.

Re:Radio?

[geeber]

A lot of radio sucks, yes. But not all. Check out WMFU. I am lucky enough to live within broadcasting range. And I want to listen to it on my MP3 player dammit! So screw Apple, I'll get a different player. But I really was hoping they would get it right this time.

Re:Radio?

[Anonymous Coward]

I also want a radio on my mp3 player, and I *did* specifically choose a different mp3 player because it had an FM Tuner.

Not everyone thinks radio sucks either, and I could really care less what you think of me for listening and *gasp* enjoying "mindless crap".

Re:Radio?

[b1t r0t]

But I really was hoping they would get it right this time.

They did get it right. For 98% of the target market. Just because you happen to be in the other 2% doesn't make it wrong.

Re:Radio?

[siskbc]

I also want a radio on my mp3 player, and I *did* specifically choose a different mp3 player because it had an FM Tuner.

Apple, I'm sure, is mourning the loss of you, your poor taste, and your $100.

Not everyone thinks radio sucks either, and I could really care less what you think of me for listening and *gasp* enjoying "mindless crap".

Similarly, not everyone is right-handed, yet you won't see left-handed tools. Sucks to be a consumer minority, eh? For what it's worth, it's not your taste, it's the format: radio has little choice or diversity, and is quickly becoming a dying entity.

Re:Radio?

[Surlyboi]

WFMU? Nah. It's all about the KEXP.

Re:Radio?

[neverutterwhen]

you don't have the BBC where you live do you poor child?

Re:Radio?

[geeber]

Very nice! Thanks for the heads up.

Is the video out capped at 1024 like iBook?

[SamSeaborn]

Serious question: is the Mac Mini's video out is capped at 1024x768 max?

I wouldn't think so, but I didn't think the iBook's was either and got a little burned by not being able to use my 1280x1204 LCD monitor.

Sam

Re:Is the video out capped at 1024 like iBook?

[dowobeha]

Serious question: is the Mac Mini's video out is capped at 1024x768 max?

No.

"VGA video output (using included adapter) to support analog resolutions up to 1920 x 1080 pixels"

Re:Is the video out capped at 1024 like iBook?

[Cmdr TECO]

It's on the 'Graphics' page -- up to 1920x1080 VGA or 1920x1200 DVI.

Re:The one mouse button

[cyberphotographer]

• when I click a link in Firefox, should it behave as a left-click and open the page in the current tab, middle-click and open the page in a new tab, or right-click and open a context menu so I can...

As a left click, like in all other applications. Apple-click opens the link in a new tab/window, like in other applications, and CTRL-click gives you a comprehensive floating menu like in all other applications.

Like in all other applications! Like rental cars. Beautiful.

A Headless 1.25 GHz Mac for $500? Yawn.

[Un pobre guey]

Only Mac fans could possibly get excited over this. I bought a headless 1.1 GHz PC for less than that a couple of years ago.

Re:A Headless 1.25 GHz Mac for $500? Yawn.

[Anonymous Coward]

Me too! Because,

1. the master clock rate tells you everything there is to know about a CPU's performance;
2. the CPU's performance tells you everything there is to know about a system's performance.

Re:A Headless 1.25 GHz Mac for $500? Yawn.

[Un pobre guey]

I understand your point that the Mac's cpu is faster than a Celeron for a given clock rate, but a couple of years to wait for an inexpensive Mac is a couple of years too long. Apple is still behind the curve with regards to affordability. Buy a no-name PC with 40 Gb of disk and 256 Mb of RAM and you will get a cpu with at least the throughput as this new Mac, if not more, and possibly for less money. If you build your own on a budget of $500, you can certainly build a more powerful machine than Apple's.

I agree with Cringely's remarks quoted in another post to the effect that this new Mac is overpriced by at least $100.

Frankly, I got a "Troll" rating because Mac users have a magical-religious zeal that prevents them from thinking in terms other than fashion and bling.

Re:A Headless 1.25 GHz Mac for $500? Yawn.

[netwiz]

build a PC bigger, better, and faster than this for $500? I dunno. You'll no doubt be stuck w/ _something_ that is significantly under any one component in this box. It might not have Firewire, or the CPU will blow, or it'll be light on RAM, or, most likely, it'll have shitty integrated video. Remember that the Mac mini has a full-tilt Radeon 9200 with it's own dedicated 32MB of DDR. Now, that's not a particularly spectacular setup, but it'll murder the integrated SiS or Intel solutions.

Also, consider that this system is as small as a stack of CDs, and nearly silent. Even the SFF PC's are hard-pressed to manage that.

Re:A Headless 1.25 GHz Mac for $500? Yawn.

[juiceCake]

or the CPU will blow

The G4 in this system definitely does just that, along with a horrible amount of default memory and the 9200 is nothing special, as you say. But to each their own of course.

The old problem with Mac cloning

[Pfhorrest]

Apple's goal with allowing cloning was for other manufacturers to licence their basic Mac tech (both HW and SW) and extend it into markets that Apple themselves couldn't reach, growing the MacOS marketplace. The problem was that cloners instead made machines targeted at the exact same range as Apple, taking their (Apple's) R&D investment which they got for cheap and using it to cannibalize Apple's own sales.

When Jobs returned, he cranked up the licencing fees when licence renewal time came for the cloners. None of the cloners would go for it because it ruined their business model. (I believe UMAX was an exception to this but I don't remember the details).

If the cloners had instead taken that Mac tech and gone after new markets, making something like the Xserve or Mac Mini (which at that time had no equivalent in Apple's lineup), it would have been what Apple had hoped for opening up cloning. But as it was, there was no incentive for cloners to do such a thing - far easier to make a quick buck by taking Apple's cheap licensing and then gobbling up their market.

PowerComputing, of "You can take my Mac when you pry my cold dead fingers off the mouse!" fame, even admitted later that they had only intended to get a start with Mac cloning, as a big fish in a small pond, to use as leverage to start off doing PC cloning instead. Which they wound up doing after Jobs returned... and I haven't heard of them since. Not so easy competing on level grounds, is it?

Re:The old problem with Mac cloning

[Scudsucker]

When Jobs returned, he cranked up the licencing fees when licence renewal time came for the cloners. None of the cloners would go for it because it ruined their business model. (I believe UMAX was an exception to this but I don't remember the details).

Apple and the cloners did renegociate for higher licensing fees. Wether or not the new terms would have worked out for Apple and the cloners, we'll never know, because Jobs killed em off. Cutting off PowerComputing and Umax was agruably a good idea, however, Apple should not have stopped Motorola or IBM from building clones. You REALLY don't want to tick off the people who supply your processors for you. IBM wasn't that mad AFAIK because they actually didn't build clones themselves, but they sublicensed the Mac OS to a couple other companies. However, Motorola had their Supermac line, which they backed up with a five year warranty, which is still damned good for desktop machines.

Moto was PISSED. Before the clones got the axe, PowerPC's were still faster clock for clock than Intel's offerings, but they were also faster in *megahertz* as well. After that, Apple got the cold shoulder, and would almost go an entire year without signifigant processor upgrades.

Which they wound up doing after Jobs returned... and I haven't heard of them since.

Apple bought them out for $100 million.

Re:The old problem with Mac cloning

[jdwest]

Not to discredit an excellent point you made, but to correct a minor error in fact regarding branding: SuperMac was UMAX. Starmax was Moto.

Re:The old problem with Mac cloning

[Scudsucker]

Whoops, thanks for the correction. But hey, this stuff happened almost a decade ago, so don't sue me. :-)

Buy one? Way ahead of you :)

[Handbrewer]

$499 for a Mac is virtually no money at all. Its the amount of money i make scratching my ass for about 20 hours in the local supermarket :). Now prices in Denmark is a wee bit higher, but i already ordered a n Apple Mini from the Danish store. I cant wait to receive it, my first Apple machine in a loong time. Been drooling over my Mates OS X for just about since they got them. Ohh its christmas all over again.

Waiting for store.apple.com...

[Anonymous Coward]

What, slashdotted? You would think they could handle it, if their servers are as hot as claimed.

I might actually order one of these if it is possible. I'm trying the web site because the guy at the Apple store in the Valley Fair mall in San Jose, CA told me this morning that they don't have a waiting list for the mini.

But I don't intend to pay those prices for memory. If I can't open it to put more memory in, I will probably ask for my money back.

Maybe this is all moot, anyhow? The store doesn't have it, and the web site is not staying up...

-Anonymous Phil

Re:Waiting for store.apple.com...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe this is all moot, anyhow? The store doesn't have it, and the web site is not staying up...
"

OK, I got through. Just took a patience. And more than $499. Actually $679.81 with the "Internal Bluetooth + AirPort Extreme Card" and California state sales tax of $51.81. I sure hope I'm not sorry when it actually arrives sometime in February. Or maybe later, they might ship it on a slow boat from China, since I took the free shipping option.

-Anonymous Phil

Honestly

[SuperKendall]

Can you honestly think of three parents you know that do not have camcorders?

Re:Honestly

[jaydonnell]

None of the ones I know have digital camcorders and none of them put their videos on their computers to edit them.

Mac Mini vs SFF PC

[af_robot]

Dude, what are you talking about?! Are you trying to compare apples to oranges: huge, ugly, loud & power-hungry PC box with a SFF Mac?! Lets be honest and compare Man Mini to SFF PC.
The *closest* possible SFF PC configuration to compare Mac Mini is:

Hoojum Cubit 3 Case: $214.20
14.7cm(H) x 21.0cm(W) x 21.0cm(D)
(Mac smaller: 5.08 x 16.51 x 16.51)

Panasonic Slotload 24x CDRW/DVD Drive $124.20

EPIA MII 12000 LVDS 1.2Ghz Motherboard $232.20
PentiumM with ITX motherboard will cost much more, Pentium IV/Celeron is not good for SFF PC - too much noise from cooling system and power demanding

Seagate Momentus 40GB 5400RPM 2.5in HDD $135.00

256MB DDR PC2100 DIMM - EPIA M Compatible $66.60

Lex 60W Silent PSU Kit $63.00

Windows XP Home OEM $124.20
-----
TOTAL: $959.40
(All prices are from www.mini-itx.com, i'm sure that you can find some parts cheaper, but not too much)

Mac Mini: $499

And even without looking at a price Apple still wins due bundled software and box dimensions.

Better off getting a Rio

[Un pobre guey]

Slaves to fashion buy iPods. People who focus on features buy the rival MP3 players, with displays, radios, ability to record off the radio, etc.

Fools believe it is desirable to walk around with 5 Gb of music in their pockets, everyone else reloads their 512 Mb flash RAM every couple of weeks.

The office appliance

[Slur]

One major value it has is for creating basic layouts. It can then export to Word format, and then you use Word to add the integrative features like scripting and database merge.

Most documents are of the simpler sort, so for 80% of the things we use word processors for, Pages seems like it would be worth taking a chance on. Apple has a good reputation, and can be counted upon to leverage the resources built into Mac OS X imaginatively and masterfully. This is a bold new foray into the office space, and I think it will pay off.

I imagine the new headless Mac Mini, set up to auto-login to a limited Finder desktop. The kind with the tabs and buttons. And on this box are the office applications the user has access to. It has become a true office appliance.

DVR coulda-been

[Anonymous Coward]

brilliant really... a way to get all these iPod owners to buy a mac...

I REALLY wish it had video in and out without ANOTHER $500 device though! Not that there's any room on the back!. ...also, the lack of a mic jack it absolutely criminal... that is necessary for the disabled, for which this is an otherwise elegant machine, that now requires an iMic dongle mess. But that eliminates "confusion" when people accidentally reach around (a whopping 7 inches) to plug their (mug targeting) stylish earbuds into the security slot.

Is it easy/possible to open by an actual user?

it's the future, I have to admit...

I bet schools will be losing the VGA adaptors by the dozen... unless you can run the security cable through them.
it could 'ave been a tivo sooooo easily.... that's all politics

I wonder if the PowerBook team engineered it (because it's so damn small) or if it was a product of the iMac team.

Remember the Cube - elegant, but crippled in it's shrunken engineering... how is heat dissipated here - that was the primary design crutch of the cube, and this biatch has a much hotter G4.

Set top box?

[zoltamatron]

Could the MiniMac revive the idea of the set top box? This thing is smaller than a DVD player and does a hellova lot more. Hook it right up to your TV and edit movies, play games, surf the net, watch slideshows, play DVDs, listen to music, etc. all right at your entertainment center. Maybe this box will serve a dual purpose: a cheap computer for PC switchers and an entertainment hub for your living room?

Can anybody tell if there is an infared port on this thing? I guess you don't really need it with bluetooth.....

Re:Set top box?

[Anonymous Writer]

Could the MiniMac revive the idea of the set top box?

I was wondering if it was also a way of getting into the video game console market quietly. Granted, the Mac isn't a huge gaming platform, and this is a bit too pricey to be used solely as a video game console. But being able to hook this thing up to a television enables it to double as a set top box like you said, and it also enables you to play all the current Mac games on it as well. Actually, in combination with products from Gyration, this could easily work as a set top box. The audio doesn't seem up to par for living room entertainment centres, though.

I'll suggest it

[SuperKendall]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that putting Apple in Microsoft's position would be a good thing.

Why not? Why would it not be better to have a player with Microsofts level of influence that:

Supports fair use.

Supports open formats (like the XML based document format used for Keynote).

Support Open Source projects and gives back code.

Fully supports UNIX command lines integrated with the GUI.

Has a more reasonable design sesnibility (this one is debatable of course).

If Apple were where Microsoft is today, they could perhaps help to put thier foot down further on DRM limitations users will face, and Open Source projects would be more highly thought of in the business world because they are such important partners to Apple.

Re:I'll suggest it

[porcupine8]

Why not?

Easy - all the viruses and spyware would be attacking my Mac.

I want Apple to stay in a nice #2 spot, thanks. I wouldn't mind their market share getting up around 25-33%, but no higher. Even that would probably lead a few hackers to look toward Macs. *shudder*

Re:I'll suggest it

[Too Much Noise]

Did it ever occur to you that maybe Apple is more friendly exactly because they don't have MS' level of influence? Remember, power corrupts. And, when all is said and done, corporations live for money.

ITS ALL SMOKE AND MIRRORS MARKETING NOTHING ELSE!!

[Anonymous Coward]

marketing marketing marketing. thats been the apple mantra for the last 5 years under the new jobs regime. the reality is that the mac computer itself is overpriced. ok, OSx is fine, but the hardware you can get cheaper for a pc if ur not a computer moron. dont like windows? linux is available. you can get better stuff with a pc you can customize it better and in 3 years when you throw out your apple mini you can upgrade a pc. 1.42ghZ? PLEASE!

My Windows World Just Got Turned Upside Down.

[Anonymous Coward]

Or perhaps I should say smashed with a rock.

I am a long time PC user who has always bought into the entrenched dogma of desktop computing. Having had the opportunity to use OSX awhile back, and being aware of the announcements today, I have spent the last week loosly playing with the idea of going Mac. Nothing serious though. Nothing I would possibly follow through on. I mean a Mac?

Enter this afternoon. I didn't really believe the stories about a sub $500 headless Mac. I believed if such a thing was released, it would surely be substandard. Needless to say, I am still trying to wrap my small Windohs brain around the reality of Imac Mini and one other product that I will get to in a minute. Not only "would" the new mini mac more than suit my needs, it likely soon will be. The small form factor baffles me. This is not your moms $500 pc with crappy crappy crappy useless integrated bastard does not deserve to be called agp graphics chip with unnacceptable shared memory and cpu architecture. This is the machine I thought could only exist in my very best dreams.

But enough about that. I have always been an MS Office user (except corel for DOS, 100 years ago). The only program in the suit I ever use, and rely upon daily, is Word. Not only has word always been good to me, I simply require the .doc format. So here I am breaking the bank every 2-3 years to purchase the latest (and I have always thought criminally expensive) version of office. So regardless of the mac mini in all its splendor, requiring a superior word proccessor and .doc format is at the very least a large hurtle if not a deal-breaker. I thought I was going to cry when as I read through Apples iWork and Pages page. Not only does Pages appear to kick Words ass and kick it hard with its interface and features that I never knew I needed, it supports .doc. The level of .doc support is a minor issue, whatever it may be since I only require plain vannila text proccessing for files that need to be read elsewhere. Beyond that, for all I know it supports .doc perfectly for all sorts of complex stuff. On top of everything else it is a more than fair (suspiciosly so?) $79. Reading about the other programs in the suite, I beleive I will ACTUALLY USE THEM! I don't use or even like speadsheets.

So here I am, your average PC guy. I have gone from playing with the idea of getting a mac this morning--which really was more of a joke I was telling myself--to someone who is now a totall convert, and my Mac will not arrive for some time. The fact is, I haven't ordered anything yet because I am now contemplating getting an iBook instead! Me? an iBook? How has Apple won me over in just a few short hours, and without so much as a live sales rep, talked me into spending 3-4 times as much as I was planning on when I initially started browsing mac minis? Perhaps Apple has launched some sort of secret satellite. Perhaps this really truly is something to all this talk of tin foil hats.

The point is I have always been a die hard PC user, as recently as this morning no less. If I of all people am going Mac all the way, then this will surely be the year of the Apple Macintosh.

Viva la revolution! (sic)

Please pardon all of the typing errors I have surely made, I am late to get somewhere.

Re:My Windows World Just Got Turned Upside Down.

[Anonymous Coward]

"I am late to get somewhere."

Perhaps your emergency meeting downstairs with the (Apple) sales team?

Re:My Windows World Just Got Turned Upside Down.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you hate it when you can't tell if the post was done by a really good troll or a real fanboy?

Windows Mini Build Challenge

[jsares]

Build an equivalent Windows PC. Here's the best I could do:

http://www.logicsupply.com/product_info.php/cPath/ 29/products_id/114

Logic Supply 3688 mini-ITX System
- Power Supply Morex 60 Watt Power Supply
- Operating System Windows XP Home - English
- Motherboard EPIA MII 12000 1.2Ghz
- Memory 256MB PC2100/DDR266 RAM
- Hard Disk 2.5" 40GB Seagate 5400rpm
- Color Silver
- CD / DVD Drive Panasonic CW-8123-B Slotloading CD-RW / DVD
- Build and test Build and test this system

Total: $710

The Cupid 3688 is the closest I could come in price, size, and style. It's still bigger and slower than the Mac mini and is $210 more!

Re:Windows Mini Build Challenge

[pyro666]

You could probably save money if you checked different suppliers, mabey bring it down closer to the Mac price. I like pricewatch.com for individual part pricing myself. But overall why not save money and build cost, and just go for the Mini. It would look and perform worlds better then the PC speced above.

Re:Windows Mini Build Challenge

[jsares]

My point is that most computer users don't want to build their own systems. The system I listed was built and tested which the OEM charged $35 extra for.

And looking through PriceWatch I don't think you can save much. Unless you go with a ugly case or a slow motherboard.

Re:Windows Mini Build Challenge

[pyro666]

my point is why use the PC anyways. The mini has it beat on price and performance, and the added bonus of no Windows. So why would you want to do the same thing for more money and with worse results? Not very smart is it.

Re:Windows Mini Build Challenge

[Hitchcock_Blonde]

Nice try. Still no OS X

The Real Birth of Automobile Computing

[jmenon]

"Another thing to note. A DIN slot (car radio standard size) is 2"x7", the mini mac is 2"x6.5"."

Combine that with the integration of the iPod with additional car models--Volvo, Nissan, and Mercedes Benz were mentioned today--and you reach an inescapable conclusion: Apple is set to blow away the market for in-car computing.

I was just in a taxi the other day here in Como, Italy, where I live, and the driver had a brand new navigation computer, complete with TV and DVD capabilities. Of course, car navigation computers are not new in Europe, providing GPS and all kinds of other in-car services. I have a friend living in Switzerland who had to drive to Luxembourg for work once a week, and he is so dependent on his in-car navigation system that once when it crashed, he couldn't find his way back home.

Think about it. It would take Apple only a baby step or two with the new Mac Mini to completely take over this market. Installing a car navigation system can cost you thousands of dollars, but Apple's core component would only cost you $499.

Imagine not only being able to plan a trip, but to have your kids do it on your desktop Mac, and then beam the instructions through AirPort to your car in the driveway. Car media centre? No problem, with a Bluetooth keyboard and a screen attached to your stereo slot. Or what about a snap-on interface connected to the USB and video-out ports on the back of the Mac Mini? But the greatest potential lies in the business uses of a car that is fitted as a fully-capable mobile office for less than a thousand bucks: the term "working remotely" takes on a whole new meaning.

Now you can be serious about taking your work to the beach.

Re:The Real Birth of Automobile Computing

[Anonymous Coward]

Like you said, they are a step or two away.

• The power button is on the back, not reachable if it's in the dash.
  
• A snap-on faceplate would need the sys turned around, so you wouldn't be able to get to the DVD drive.
  
• The power supply would need to be replaced with a DC-DC supply and most of those are fitted to the VIA Epia mobos.
  
• USB GPS module adds about $100.
  
• No radio, you would need another usb device, about $50 I think.
  
• No mention of whether it has a fan, but the back would still need to be well ventilated.
  

After I posted I tallied cost of the other stuff for the Mac Mini and it comes out about the same as an Epia based system.

Re:The Real Birth of Automobile Computing

[Anonymous Coward]

It has a fan, yes.

Re:The Real Birth of Automobile Computing

[mccoyspace]

yes, but it's a lot more powerful than an epia system

Re:The Real Birth of Automobile Computing

[Meneudo]

Awesome! When this happens, I will truly be able to live in my car!

OS X Server, anyone?

[ps_inkling]

For $500, the miniMac is just right for use as a local network server. Yes, it's only an original FireWire port and 10/100 network connection, but it's much cheaper/quicker/stylish to have a tiny box taking care of network logins and home directories. If 80GB isn't enough, plug in another 250G or 500G via the FireWire.

I have strugled to get an old klunker PPC 601 to use OSX Server just for headless network tasks (thanks to XPostFacto!). Bizarre RAM (5V DIMM?) and software trickery made the task difficult. I considered using an iMac for the job, but the wattage was just too high (mostly the "always on" monitor).

The tech specs claim the miniMac consumes 85W maximum continuous -- much better than the 100W for the 7500/100 or 390W(!) for the 8600/200. And how much wattage does the standard beige box P4 consume? 400W? 500W?

For $2000, you can buy four of the miniMacs and make a respectable computing cluster. Not as nifty as the XServe, but reasonable with a modest budget.

Re:OS X Server, anyone?

[phillymjs]

For $500, the miniMac is just right for use as a local network server.

Agreed. The subscribers on the Mac home automation mailing list I belong to are absolutely drooling over the possibilities the Mac mini presents. When I migrate my home servers to OS X, the home automation controller duties were going to be taken up by my old Quicksilver 733 that was replaced by my G5-- but now I may just sell it on eBay and pick up a mini. And I'd better get the Quicksilver listed fast, because used Mac prices are probably gonna take a hit once the mini becomes readily available.

~Philly

Upgrade price for iWork?

[bw5353]

Did anyone see anything about an upgrade option for iWork? I paid more for Keynote alone than iWork costs, so some sort of a rebate would seem appropriate.

Sticker price

[Anonymous Coward]

Add 256 MB more and you need to add $xx to the $499. Apple is partly playing by the Wintel rules. You want more, upgrade and pay more. Those $399 Wintel crap you buy does not have many things either and yet they are popular because they are $399. For some reason, lots of people do not count the extra costs. They only quote the base cost of the computer.

That said, it still includes things like Firewire, combo drive, graphic card, etc.. I am very impressed. Not so much for iPod shuffle, though. It's funny since I knew iPod and iPod mini were going to be smash hits and /. were rather harsh on them. Now I have my reservation and /. apparently like iPod shuffle. Go fig.

Insert CD. Press Import Button. No Step Three.

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a hard time just simply getting it to rip a song from a CD into mp3 format.

Inserting the CD and pressing the import button that appears in the upper right hand corner was difficult? Or did you get an AAC (that may be the default) and you wanted MP3 instead? If so, second second answer.

I prefer good lossless in the living room on the 'good' stereo

FLAC is fine, but if you would a way to just have iTunes do lossless it's as easy as click iTunes->Preferences. Then click the import button and change the encoder to Apple Lossless.

One Word:

[SPYvSPY]

DUH!

Re:One Word:

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey! For some of us outside of America, this is informative :)

I have heard the "Don't taunt Happy Fun Ball" many, many times, and even gone to a sight listing the bit the Grandparent poster had - but I never knew where it originated from...

And now I do :)

Re:ANOTHER SHAMELESS MARKETING PLOY FROM APPLE

[mkarpinski]

Learn punctuation, troll.

Unlike your Linux PC, my PowerMac's keyboard does include a shift key.

Re:ITS ALL SMOKE AND MIRRORS MARKETING NOTHING ELS

[Anonymous Coward]

omg lol ur a dumbass!!!11!!eleven!!

Ouch, I think that cost me a few brain cells.

Do you really believe /. took Apple down?

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be kidding if you think Apple was taken down by little ol' /. Besides the huge number of very powerful servers in Apple's own internal farm, they outsource large loads to Akamai. Boy, you should go back to playing Halo and leave comments to people who know what is going on.

512MB upgrade is $75

[AHumbleOpinion]

Hidden costs indeed. If you upgrade the Mac mini to 1GB of memory through the Apple store, the additional cost is $425! So that $500 marvel is now $925. And for OS X to really sing, mucho memory is required.

You conveniently neglected to mention the upgrade to 512MB for $75. For a machine of this type 512MB is plenty, this is not a development class system. It is for more casual use. Hell for typical home users just doing email, browsing, and letters to grandma 256MB is probably OK given that you won't have the spyware and virus bloat. Apple's math is just fine. You are presenting an unrealistic edge case as if it was the norm.

Re:ANOTHER SHAMELESS MARKETING PLOY FROM APPLE

[MrMuskOx]

hmmmm... and apple is not part of the global conspiracy i guess?

CmdrTaco, is that you?

[rjung2k]

This ipod shuffle really is just a "me too" product.

Can we quote you for next year's "iPod shuffle is a runaway smash hit" retrospective?

Re:ANOTHER SHAMELESS MARKETING PLOY FROM APPLE

[INeededALogin]

"It is better to remain quiet and risk being thought an idiot
than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

You know, spell checker is global in OS X.

Lame Moderators...

[ElitistWhiner]

/. sees >1000 comments and all "5 rated" posts are put downs against Apple. /. is fast approaching NPR for content-less entertainment programming.

QT 7 Includes HD video support, Mac Mini does not?

[stickyc]

I'm a little disappointed that Apple chose to go cheap on the Mini's video hardware. Especially with QuickTime 7 announcing support for High-Def video. Given that the Mini is a great form-factor for a 'media center' application, would it have killed them to put support for a component video adapter on the DVI port or at least offer ugpraded video as an option?

And for that matter, what about digital audio out? I see a good market for a 'media center' friendly video/audio breakout box with IR support (Keyspan, are you listening?)

Must not be trolls if Mini fixes their complaints

[AHumbleOpinion]

If they were truly trolls why does the mini fix so many of their complaints? There were no shortage of legitimate complaints about recent Mac products, and many came from people who own and use Macs.

Apple's worst enemies are the fanboys who think Apple can do no wrong. Thankfully Apple seems to be listening to the market not the fanboys.

Oh it's on!

[m3talsling3r]

Apple is now on there way to reclaiming lost territory. The good news? Even if they don't win it's going to force a lot of new smaller form factors out by their competition and make the world a better place!

Re:ANOTHER SHAMELESS MARKETING PLOY FROM APPLE

[MrMuskOx]

you still havent answered my point, instead being nitpicky about the phrasing of the post itself. i see that like most mac users you prefer form over substance.

Mac Mini will cannibalize Shuttle XPC sales.

[Linuxathome]

This is just speculation, but I suspect that Jobs looked at Shuttle XPC devices and said to himself, "I'll make it cheaper and smaller, and better" and poof! intro the Mac Mini. No doubt Shuttle is wondering whether or not their shift away from making motherboards and selling just XPCs was a prudent move. Most likely Shuttle will still shine in PC sales, but you will wonder if they'll still do well with this Mac Mini being available.

nearly nipped

[jonathan_95060]

No, they haven't nipped it in the bud because apple still supplies the user interface guidelines which still define a one button world.

Sure, having 3 buttons with ad hoc conventions for two of them is better than being stuck with only one button but not as good as having a UIG that includes how all 3 buttons are to be used.

The early iMacs...

[emjoi_gently]

...were a pain to upgrade memory for.
Apart from using SO-DIMMs, which were expensive, it was major surgery to take apart the machine and get into the spot to install them.
Obviously this bothered alot of customers because the later iMacs had a nice neat hatch at the bottom were you could slot in more common SD-RAM.

I wonder if the MiniMac has also gone down the "Neat package, but a pain in the arse to upgrade" path.

Cheap Macs == Poor Fags

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't the aesthetics wonderful?

mod parent up

[chocolatetrumpet]

It's probably hopeless, this is on page 8... but, excellent idea!

And you even branded it well.. good job :-)

One button mice

[jonathan_95060]

by your reasoning, apple should ship keyboards with just one key and have users tap their text in via morse code because we all know that one key is simpler than 104 keys.

Cluster This.

[Grant The Great]

XGrid Anyone?

Ok so the obligatory "Beowulf Cluster" needs to be brought up. While these minimacs don't have gigabit ethernet or any means of highspeed interconnecting, if it did, would this would be a force to be reconned with? Figure your average midsized tower is "16 tall, these little guys being 2" tall, you can fit 8 of these in the same size as 1 mid sized tower. If you bought the 1.25ghz base models at $500 a piece that combines to a total of 9ghz of processing power, 2048 megs of ram, 320 gb hard drive space all in a nice and neat stack about the size of a midsized tower, for a grand total of $4000.

Or how about a rack filled with them? Given a 20U rack, 1U being 1.75"x19"x36"(HxWxD), and the dimensions of 1 minimac being 2"x6.5"x6.5". You'll have 17 minimacs high, 2 wide (almost 3), 5 deep, for a total of 170 minimacs in a single 20U rack. 212.5ghz total processing power, 43520 megs of ram, 6800 gb of hard drive space. $85000.

I've never read much about super computers/clusters, but I'm curious if any of you happen to know how these measurements stack up against other cluster configurations price/size/performance wise.

Replying to myself.

[emjoi_gently]

Okay, I saw the pic of a Mini with it's box off.
Pretty easy to replace that RAM.

Re:Replying to myself.

[Anonymous Coward]

You assume it is easy to get the box off and back on. I expect, looking at the picture, it is a PITA. Probably as annoying as upgrading the hard drive or optical drive in the iBook (or worse, replacing the airport antenna). Btw, Apple is charging +$425 to get the single 1 GB memory module pre-installed. Makes you wonder how difficult it might be.

Re:Replying to myself.

[SmittyTheBold]

They're just charging a huge amount for the gig of RAM. After all, they install the RAM when manufacturing. It's nto like they take a 256 machine and then retrofit it with more memory after it's been boxed up. In addition, you'll note that the 512 MB option is quite reasonable in comparison - and that would requite just as much effort on their part to install as the 1 GB option.

command keys!

[chocolatetrumpet]

I use the command keys so much that I actually bought an apple keyboard for my powerbook (as opposed to the ms keyboard I was using).

It's definitly a point worth noting.

speaking of the Atari mouse

[amwassil]

Those puppies were industrial quality - you had to exert so much force on the buttons there was no such thing as an accidental mouse click! If you managed to force it down, you had to know you were doing so. And yes, I used 4 ST's over the course of 10 years.

By the way

[MuMart]

If anyone here wants something with the price tag of an iPod, but not the features or space (or iPod), I think we can come to some arrangement!

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[WiggyWack]

I'm begining to get the feeling that Steve Jobs might be trying to reposition Apple. Hardware is a mugs game, after all.

Yeah, everyone buys the iPod for the software.

Apple is just doing a great job of integrating hardware and software. They do both. It amazes me how many people I hear say that Apple must open their hardware to cloners and become a software company like MS to be successful.

Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

http://members.cox.net/captwillard/WillMacMiniGril l.jpg

Halo Effect 2.0

[saha]

Hope this extends the Halo effect for Apple. The price is certainly right at $499 for the Mac Mini and $99 for the iPod Shuffle. Good going Apple!

From a design standpoint, I think the G5 PowerMac are great and the iMac G5 are pretty good too. I do have one suggestion for Apple when creating avant garde designs is not to forget the very basics of ergonomics and usabilty. The power button on the Mac Mini, eMac, iMac G5 are all placed on the back. If you ever walk into a computer lab where the computer isn't switched on, you'll see people confused and scratching their heads on how to switch on an eMac, iMacG4 and will probably occur with the iMac G5and the Mac Mini.

Most slashdotters are aware of the one button mouse is not the only supported mouse for Mac OSX. However, when a visitor to any urban Apple Store curious about Macs try the computers out. They 'might' leave with the impression of Macs as a toy like device because the mouse. In fact this indelible impression of Macs is reinforced when Apple doesn't offer an alternative, unless its an after market add on. Many Mac users I know buy the Microsoft Optical Intellimouse and they make a pretty damn good mouse (give credit where its due folks i.e. Starck mouse). If the Playstation 3 came out tomorrow with a joystick from the Atari 2600 with its single fire button, no kid would want to use one. Even if the game play rocks, the graphics better than reality, and the features mind blowing. The preceived wimpy single fire button game console could hurt sales and this is sort of what does happen with Macs when people see this impressive water cooled G5 PowerMac coming with this single button mouse. This image of Apple is so ingrained that even former Mac OS9 users, some now using Windows or Solaris are amazed that Mac OSX has mutli button and scroll wheel support. This is a mouse I can recommend. I use the extra buttons for Expose and can't live with it. Mouse in a Box Optical Elite

PS/2 keyboards with Apple gear

[timothy]

Yes, it can be done, but it's not as simple as a PS/2 --> USB adapter; you have to get one that will actually convert the signal. While that sounds strange (isn't an A an A? Why would the cheap kind work connecting PS/2 keyboards to the USB port on a PC, but not to the USB port on a Mac?), I've reluctantly accepted this through personal experience.

I bought a Mac-friendly PS/2-->USB dongler (with two PS/2 inputs -- for mouse and keyboard -- and one USB output) at a computer show in the U.S. (I think that one was in western Maryland) for about $30; the simpler ones, which will work fine with a PC, are of course much cheaper; I've paid as little as $5 for one of those.

(Why have I bought several? Because I like old, clicky keyboards, which all have PS/2 or AT connections, and I'd rather keep an adapter on each one, so I have a keyboard handy if I construct of acquire a new machine. And I'm not a big fan of laptop keyboards, so I wanted to have a keyboard with my iBook ...)

timothy

iMac Mini: Missed Opprotunity

[CosmicDreams]

When I look at the iMac Mini and read about it's size as specifications I can't help but feel frustrated that they did not include s-video out/in. The Mini would be able to target the emerging set-top box market as it would be compatiable with most TVs.

Being able to copy content to the box (pictures, movies, applications) and run them from on a nice TV is fun. Even better if you realize that FreeBSD can give you pretty good TiVO like software with a few downloads.

If only they had an ATI all-in-wonder option.

Typo

[saha]

I use the extra buttons for Expose and can't live without it

Quicktime video of the presentation online

[SqyD]

A Quicktime stream of the entire presentation is available here on the apple website.

Re:Mac Mini - how many can they produce?

[Scudsucker]

Right, because Apple is the ONLY computer maker to ever suffer from supply problems.

Euro screw

[illustir]

I don't get it. The listed price for the mini is €499.

$499 should be something more like €380. (€499 is $654). Source: www.xe.com .

I'm a bit tired getting screwed and seeing Americans eat all those free lunches.

Re:Euro screw

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha ha, pwned.

Re:Euro screw

[arminw]

...I'm a bit tired getting screwed and seeing Americans eat all those free lunches...

Send a protest to your government for imposing all those duties and taxes (GST, VAT etc.), most of which are included in your purchase price. Our lunches are not free either, but they are prepared with fewer bitter taxes in them and therefore taste better

Re:Euro screw

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on! We have Bush! Can't we at least keep our cheaper Macs?

Re:Euro screw

[otis wildflower]

I'm a bit tired getting screwed and seeing Americans eat all those free lunches.

Mmmm.. Delicious...

Then again, the debt incurred by massive European social programs and aging (and shrinking) populations unable to satisfy that debt will devalue the Euro soon enough.. Be patient..

Re:Euro screw

[K.]

Good thing OPEC will be trading in it in 10 years time, eh? That should shore it up a little.

Re:Euro screw

[phsdv]

the US price is without tax (VAT) the euro price does include 19% tax....

Tiger Bits

[Anonymous Coward]

Did anyone else read "Bigger Tits" instead of "Tiger Bits"?

It's possible

[Anonymous Coward]

The port on the mac mini is DVI-I, which includes the analog signals on the wire. I think a component adapter is possible, if not already existing. Apple already sells a DVI-to-S-video/composite adapter. A DVI-to-VGA adapter is also available. Would DVI-to-component be much of a stretch? I bet someone will make one.

Also you can get one of these to do Dolby/DTS/other 5.1 audio out.

I doubt it, capacity options also point to 2.5"

[blorg]

I can't imagine that there is a 3.5" drive under the laptop CD drive in that image; besides, I think the drive options - 40gb or 80gb - sort of give away the fact that it's a 2.5". The lack of a fan is a further pointer.

I wonder

[philge]

should be able to make a cool home built cluster using these. Also why doesm't MS buy these install office and virtual PC and rebrand them as OfficBox

MacMini - ideal for your elderly parents!

[igorthefiend]

I recently had a struggle buying hi-fi kit for my mother who is in her early sixties. She wanted a single, tidy box but wanted all kinds of functionality (DVD, Digital Radio etc...) and I had to keep her from buying overrated Bose kit. It was a struggle. To my mind, the Macmini is the computer equivalent of the kind of thing she was looking for. All the functionality you need with a design that's unobtrusive and could double up as other things (media centre etc...) Even as a Microsoft using, PC owning, iPodless wonder, for the first time in my life, I looked at an Apple computer and thought "One of those and a KVM switch and it would be interesting to have..."

Re:MacMini - ideal for your elderly parents!

[Anonymous Coward]

i realy hope at least one of your parents is korean

Re:MacMini - ideal for your elderly parents!

[gg510]

I got my 70-something mom an iBook a couple years ago. She is the paradigm case of someone who knows nothing about technology, and she was able to learn to use it with relatively little hassle. Before the Mac she didn't even know how to type. Now she doesn't go a day without sending & receiving email to/from friends & family. And I have the filters in Mail set up to kill spam and anything with nasty language, so she doesn't get bombarded with that crap.

The Mini would be great for our parents' generation, and with larger screens, can keep up with age-related changes in eyesight.

If your mom/dad/whoever likes to travel or lives in different parts of the country/world at different times of year, an iBook is probably the best solution since they can take the whole thing with them.

But if they stay mostly in one place, then yeah, the Mini is the answer.

WWN

[Cryptnotic]

Weekly World News is a tabloid newspaper that routinely prints absolutely outragous stories. It is totally fictitious, though sometimes the stories are loosely based on famous people.

http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/

I have only one complaint

[Hax0ringWang]

Let me start by saying I am already in love with the mini mac, however... Where is the digital audio out? I would love to be able to use it as a DVD player, however without surround sound, I guess ill stick with playing via my PC for now.

Re:I have only one complaint

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out M-Audio's Transit product, also available on ebay.

Careful of the fine print..

[Skibbering]

From the iMac mini page:

"Keyboard, iPod mini, dock, hands, AirPort, Bluetooth and PC sold separately."

Cheeky monkeys..

Just Think

[blantonl]

Just think what Apple revenues would have looked like had they released the Mini-Mac before the back-to-school rush. Jeeze, every kid would have wanted one for school, and every parent would have said "Jeeze.. only $499, ok!" Sigh... But hey, no complaints here, this might be my opportunity to dip my toe in the Apple Pool for only $499.

Cringely may yet be correct...

[sunbane]

So, initially it is $499... apple for a while is gonna be production constrained at that price (took them quite some time to finally satisfy ipod mini demand). So take the extra $$$ while it is available and bring up your production. Then once sales begin to ebb... drop the price. Then you can really bring in the masses. Remember - it is always more $$$ to be on the cutting edge of technology!

He's right about making it up in software. I just got an iMac G5 for Christmas... and now I need to get me a new copy of iLife ($79) and upgrade my Final Cut Express ($99) let alone pick up Tiger when it comes out ($???)... just when I thought I could recover my finances from Christmas! :) And they have features I just can't say No to!!! (Hmmm... maybe that actually foils Cringely's plan - might be cheaper at $249 to just buy a MiniMac to upgrade all your software and throw the hardware away!)

Re:Cringely may yet be correct...

[aaarrrgggh]

Do you really think they will be supply constrained on this?! There aren't any fancy parts that are new to the market; it's almost a re-hash of the cube with more standard parts and a different case!

I hope they can put out a million a quarter... they need to for success. I can't imagine what would hold them up on it.

It's actually a perfect play; they also get to diversify on chip suppliers with a new product line! If IBM has a major problem it won't destroy sales now like it did six months ago.

Re:Cringely may yet be correct...

[Rew190]

Sunbane, you might want to call your Apple store (if you have one around) and ask them if you can get hooked up with a discount on the new software packages since you just recently got your computer. It's worth looking into... they hooked me up with iLife last time around with my Powerbook about a week or two after I initially bought it, for free.

And what happens when the USB sockets are full..

[kt0157]

.. like when you plug in a USB keyboard and a USB mouse. Why did they only put 2 USBs on the thing?

iSuck

[hotneutron]

iSuck

Re:iSuck

[Hitchcock_Blonde]

Yeah, we know you suck.

My thoughts... Apple hit and missed....

[Foo2rama]

The MAC Mini...
Initial thoughts OMG I NEED THIS. Run a kvm switch and place it next to my pc, and I got the best of both worlds. Then it started sinking in, hmm g4 128mb of ram no keyboard or monitor. Well assume 499 for the base model 200 for a monitor and 50 for a keyboard and mouse and you are up to $749. kick up to 512 mb of ram and you are around $850. Well for 1299 you can get a much faster g5 with a 17inch lcd and 512mb of ram and a video card that will run circles around the mini's. So where is the cost savings? Is the mini really worth it?
Call me jaded but back in the powerpc days I watched apple release products that the OS would not support 1 year down the road. With the g4 virtually gone from apples lineup and the new architecture of the g5 (64 bit) How long is the g4 going to be supported, or is the OS going to fork into a 64bit and 32bit versions similar to the early ppc days? Granted the situation is not completely identical as from what I know(limited) you cannot work in both a 32bit and 64bit environment at the same time, unlike the extra code for the risc chipped PPC's.
I can see alot of uses for a mini. It is a great appliance not a desktop replacement. It would be great to serve you itunes, and wireless itunes. It could make a great T.V. set computer but the svideo adapter is extra (apples site is being hosed right now so I cannot get the price for it.) But lacking svideo in and out no DVR out of the box which is a disappointment. Apple really could have cleaned up with built in DVR. It could make an assume techtool for fixing macs or networks with it's light weight and cheapness. (much cheaper then a laptop.)
One use that you might see is a nice cheap server array using firewire drives for storage. You could cheaply build your own budget server array with these.
Yes I will most likly buy one, and might even try and convince my parents that they need one. I can convince them to buy one with a wireless keyboard mouse and wifi to connect to the network I built at there house, and have them connect directly with the vga/dvi input on there 52 inch dlp T.V.
I think that you will see this machine sell well for 9 months sales drop after that, and then be removed from the lineup after 1.25 years.

Hits
cheap initial cost
Has some uses
great appliance potential
Will get alot of PC users into the MAC

Misses
No svideo in/out so no out of the box DVR...
low amount of base ram 128mb
g4 proc ( $100 more with a g5 and I would be first in line for this thing)


Other news... Apple has there own office suite big suprise there (yawn not really) they needed it, lets see how there WORD killer actually works. We all now the there version of powerpoint is way better, and is now in version 2. The new iPod will sell like crazy... awesome price for a usb mem stick with an mp3 player built in. Lets see if Apple can clean up Motorola's horrible user interface with the co-branded phone (which is still not actually seen) they just used a (hacked) version of a phone they did with mtv last year. The real one is still out on the horizon.
Ok why no broadcast this year... hmmm....

Re:My thoughts... Apple hit and missed....

[BlueDjinn]

Just to clarify a few of your "misses": "No svideo in/out so no out of the box DVR..." You can get the DVI to S-Video/Composite Video adapter for $19. "low amount of base ram 128mb" Actually, it comes with 256MB, not 128 (still a bit low but twice what you thought) "g4 proc ( $100 more with a g5 and I would be first in line for this thing)" ...except that the G5 is larger and runs much hotter, so would require a considerably larger casing.

Re:My thoughts... Apple hit and missed....

[Foo2rama]

When I checked apples site it said 128 I checked 3 times, it has apparently changed. But the box only has support for one stick of mem, so it will still cost at least $100 to get it up to 512 which is a useable amount of ram. 256 will not cut it with itunes or iphoto running. I mentioned the adapter but it still does not have svideo in which is needed for DVR. Yes I know the g5 is a heat monster which is why there is no laptop g5. My point was if this had a g5 I would be willing to shell out 599 in a heartbeat for it.

Re:My thoughts... Apple hit and missed....

[Yosho]

Run a kvm switch and place it next to my pc, and I got the best of both worlds. Then it started sinking in, hmm g4 128mb of ram no keyboard or monitor. Well assume 499 for the base model 200 for a monitor and 50 for a keyboard and mouse and you are up to $749.

If you're going to be hooking it up to your PC with a KVM switch, why would you need to buy a monitor/keyboard/mouse? That doesn't make any sense. Also, there is a DVI-to-S-video adapter, so while you don't have S-video in, you can have it out.

Also, upgrading to a 512 MB stick of DDR333 SDRAM (that's what the Mac Mini uses) runs about $75 from Apple. You can probably get it cheaper elsewhere, too.

Re:My thoughts... Apple hit and missed....

[aristotle-dude]

But the box only has support for one stick of mem, so it will still cost at least $100 to get it up to 512 which is a useable amount of ram.

Correction. 75 USD to upgrade to 512mb if you buy from Apple.

Why did two of us have to correct you on such obvious mistakes? You're not trolling are you? Maybe the mac mini is not for you but it does have a market for sure.

Re:My thoughts... Apple hit and missed....

[Foo2rama]

Did you read my post. How is a thought out discussion on the mini, in which I state I will most likly buy one trolling? and sry I missed the $25 differnce on the estimated memory price. Apples web site was being hammered and I couldn't get into the store to check the price. To me trolling is correcting a $25 dollar estimate and not reading the post in which I state I will most likly buy one.

Re:ANOTHER SHAMELESS MARKETING PLOY FROM APPLE

[Anonymous Coward]

You (or should I say "u") had a point? A Linux setup may be cheaper in terms of hardware, but Linux costs a shitload in terms of time to learn and administer. Time is money you know, and some people want their computers to just work, without having to learn the intricacies of Unix, not to mention all the different and incompatible packaging schemes that are available for Linux. OS X comes with support and frequent updates that are easy to apply. Most software installs on OS X are a matter of draging and dropping a single object into the Applications folder. Is Linux that quick and easy? No. Is installing an update or security patch on linux as easy as clicking a single button? No, but on OS X it is.

For someone who doesn't want to be a sysadmin at home, the MacMini + OS X is much cheaper in terms of TCO.

Apple Innovation

[Anonymous Coward]

From article: Mac OS X v10.4 "Tiger" was first announced at last June's Worldwide Developer Conference (WWDC), and Jobs reiterated Apple's plans to ship the new operating system in the first half of 2005. "That is going to be long before Longhorn," said Jobs, referring to Microsoft's forthcoming operating system.

Wow, Stevo, you are shipping a point release ahead of MS's newest OS verion. Thats quite an accomplishment!

Whats that you say? You will be charging the same amount of money for the point release update as MS is going to charge for an upgrade to their new OS? Wow, you really do have your customers eating from your hand. Quite an accomplishment!

Re:Apple Innovation

[Scudsucker]

Whats that you say? You will be charging the same amount of money for the point release update as MS is going to charge for an upgrade to their new OS? Wow, you really do have your customers eating from your hand. Quite an accomplishment!

Oh? Considering that for every Microsoft update Apple has put out about 3, why don't you go drink a nice, tall glass of stfu.

Re:Apple Innovation

[IvanXQZ]

IHBT.

In case you're late to the party, Apple's point releases for OS X are equivalent to most products' full numbered release. See, they're milking the "Mac OS X" brand as long as they can, or can you not see through the marketing-speak? The point-point releases are free and are equivalent to most products' point releases.

Asshead.

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[forkazoo]

Does myth TV work with Firewire video hardware? I have been having the exact same thought... Of course, I'd also need video out, but that shouldn't be too hard with firewire...

Also, VideoLAN client works with Mac OS X. Ooooh. I will probably use my BT878 in my video server running VLC, and stream to the Mini Mac... As soon as I can get a refurb open-box mini mac for $399, anyway. :)

LOSE! THE WORD IS LOSE!

[Anonymous Coward]

Learn to spell.

It's a real alternative though

[SuperKendall]

Yes, I admit to a certain amount of zeal.

But that's because this brings the MiniITX form factor into the mainstream! This makes for a very practical MythTV style box in a lot of ways other PC do not. Video editing and DVD creation is a rapidly growing market (although come to think of it, there's no DVD burner on these yet so probably that's premature).

Do you really doubt this is going to sell very well to all sorts of different people? The presales alone will probably outnumber the total MiniITX sales to date.

It's not the holy grail of computing. But it is a computer that is aimed at a market that until now was not primarily mainstream. That is what is really exciting, thinking about how this whole market will probably explode (and that's for PC's as well as Macs, as I expect lots more smaller PC's coming out now).

Re:It's a real alternative though

[nofx_3]

I hate to burst your bubble but anyone excited that this will bring "MythTV" boxes to the mainstream will be sorely dissapointed when the realize there is no video capture card nor are there any upgrade slots avialable to place a capture card in. I agree that in principle this would be just about the kind of box you want but unfortunately the hardware just isn't there (256MB RAM, no Capture Card, needs a dongle for s-video out, no DVD burner which is nice to have on a video storage box). Anyhow I do think its a neat box for all of us out there who would like a mac on their desk as an additional machine but don't want to pay through the teeth for one. That said I don't understand why people are complaining that they are offering a cheap mac option. Are they taking away your nice expensive mac or PC in order to do so?

-kaplanfx

Get a hub, Einstein.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ordinary USB hubs cost about $20. Apple USB keyboards have two extra USB ports on them.

If this is not sufficient, I bet that by June there will be a 3rd-party USB hub that stacks under the Mac Mini, matches the color, and has all the ports you could care to use. If THAT is not sufficient, get another hub.

My point being that USB is designed for extension in a mixture of daisy-chain and star topologies, and plenty of people with two-port machines survive just fine by adding more.

I think it would be good for that

[SuperKendall]

I have used InDesign a fair amount and would agree it's not a good program for the average user, much less a beginner - it's hard sometimes to figure out the common things you'd like to do, like image wrap (at least non-intuitive).

If they have solved all that and can just let people put simple newsletters with cool graphics together (which it looks like they have) they will have a huge market. Like I said, it's for all those people that used to use Print Shop Pro (which was very popular years ago) to create flyers or newsletters or what have you. Also, with the HTML export it could be much nicer for creating web pages (Word is even more horrible for HTML generation than page layout),

Apple ad: Mac mini shown w/PC peripherals

[calstraycat]

It looks like Apple is going to market this thing very directly at PC to Mac "switchers" and schools.

If you check out the Mac mini QTVR movies, there's one showing it connected to PC peripherals and the Apple
Store's Mac mini page highlights that it can be used with your old PC's peripherals. The Mac mini's main page even recommends upgrading school computer labs from PC to Mac so that you can "spend your time teaching advanced topics instead of basic computer maintenance". Ouch. I knew that this would be the target market, but I didn't expect such a direct sales pitch to PC users and schools.

As a side note, you get to see how big the power brick is for the mini. If you look at the "with Mac peripherals" QTVR movie you see that if you use an Apple monitor, you are stuck with two power bricks and a bunch of cables. Seeing that picture makes me want to buy an iMac G5. ;-)

Re:iMac Mini: Missed Opprotunity

[INeededALogin]

The DVI can pretty much be downgraded to S-video if you so desire. Most HDtvs seem to carry DVI in now and you can always convert that to other signals pretty easily(such as component, composite, s-video, VGA, etc).

Strange port choices

[dfl]

I don't get the Apple port choices -- which really matters on a machine that isn't easily moddable. Where are the audio IN ports? Also, the mini-plug audio out is a mistake. There's a market for hard-disk audio recorders, and an 80GB mini running iTunes would pretty much own it IF it had real audio ports. Hey Apple: the Yamaha recorder / burner sells for $799, and what has it got that the mini doesn't, except the expected digital and analog in and out? http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/DVD_CD/CDRHD130 0.htm

Is there a third-party sound processor that plugs into the USB?

BTW the video out doesn't bother me so much, since a converter from DVI/VGA to component video should be cheap and lossless.

Re:Strange port choices

[Pfhor]

Converter from DVI to VGA is provided with the machine, for $20 you can get svideo/composite out adapter that plugs into DVI port, but you can't have both (moniter and tv). DVI will plug directly into HD TV.

There are numerous audio solutions, check the accessories page.

http://www.apple.com/macmini/accessories.html

Instead of raising the price by added things that not everyone needed (remember, no monitor, keyboard, or mouse), apple went bare minimum, but gave you the ability to add functionality through USB /Firewire.

Re:Strange port choices

[SoupIsGood Food]

There are a buncha them, ranging from the ubiquitous Griffin iMic up to big-bucks multi-channel Firewire rigs.

SoupIsGood Food

Re:Strange port choices

[dfl]

Thanks for the link. The M-Audio Transit does what I was thinking of. So that's good news. But...

I appreciate the fact that Apple is trying to keep their margin up (retail price down), but if I get a macmini, I'm not going to be happy to pay $99 for digital audio in/out ports. And there's nothing elegant about this solution: attaching an additional sound card connected to the USB bus. Apple saves almost a dollar by not soldering those ports onto their sound card, it is true. But Bill Gates is the one who profits, I think. 'Cause this kinda thing doesn't happen in Wintel land.

The keyboard / mouse / monitor thing is a different issue altogether -- leaving off extras is fine because many people want to use a brand or design of their own choice. If Apple wanted to let me choose my own sound card, I'd be thrilled. Instead they offer me the equivalent of a built-in 5-inch CRT.

Re:Strange port choices

[Anonymous Coward]

Ebay has some Transits for under $60.... :-)

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[ianbean]

If you're wanting to get first-hand experience with Mac OS X 10.4 you may be shelling out some additional cash - looks like the Mini only ships with Panther (10.3): http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html.

I still want one, though.

The path of money

[SuperKendall]

But there are many ways to achieve an end. Just because Microsoft took the path of generally screwing people over does not make it a requirement. IBM is behaving quite well nowadays, and is generally as big as Microsoft.

The other thing is that Apple, as a company, has seen the power of basing things on top of Open Source stuff. Lots of quality software without a huge engineering expenditure. Look at how because they do not have to work on OS internals as much, they are able to get truly interesting higher level features added to the OS with a smaller development staff!! While Microsoft pushes WinFS out another few years, Tiger is getting Spotlight and CoreData for real early this year.

Apple has a huge financial incentive to keep doing what they are doing, because it is working and making them money.

Mac Mini

[bikerguy99]

I think that Mac Mini $499 defines a new price level at which PC users will now be saying - $499?!?!??! and no flat monitor - this is expensive!!!Macs are still overpriced!

Re:No free megaphones either

[summernot]

You have to get your megaphones separately as well.

See the footnote at http://www.apple.com/macmini/

Keyboard, mouse, megaphone and display sold separately.

I, for one, amd glad, as I already have a megaphhone from my old mac.

Re:And what happens when the USB sockets are full.

[damiam]

Apple USB keyboards (and many PC keyboards) have extra USB ports you can plug the mouse into. If you really want to, you can always buy a $10 USB hub.

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[Moofie]

Video out comes from the little dongle that Apple will sell you for $20. S-Video or RCA...you pick. Want component? You can probably use the DVI instead...

This is one hell of a cool computer.

Links to download Apple Keynotes

[Ardisson]

You can download many Apple Keynotes as .mov files, including MWSF'05 on http://seriot.ch/AppleKeynotes/ Enjoy!

Re:Links to download Apple Keynotes

[mick129]

Thanks for the link! I was getting so frustrated with the streaming video - it kept pausing and giving audio only.

Mac mini vs. eMac

[XxtraLarGe]

I was putting off buying a Mac until this MacWorld also. The sad thing is, it looks like I'll have to put it off a little bit longer.

Don't get me wrong, the new products are all really great, especially the iMac mini. But what I really wanted was an eMac G5 update. The primary thing I want is a low cost machine with digital editing capabilities. For these things, I need a lot of RAM and a decent sized hard drive.

I decided to try and configure the new Mac mini to be close to the current SuperDrive equipped eMac. If you upgrade the Mac mini to 1 GB RAM, 80 GB HD, and add a keyboard & mouse, you're suddenly up to $1054 (academic price). The eMac with the same config is $1101. Basically, you're getting a built-in 17" monitor for an extra $47.

Of course, I do have an extra 17" monitor at home, but it's hooked up to an old Wintel machine we have up in our attic which we use occassionally. I also do have an extra keyboard & multi-button mouse, but that means that the old iMac I have will have to go back to the small keyboard & hockey puck mouse that came with it (we're keeping the old iMac for the kids). Also, if I wanted to skimp on RAM, I could downgrade to 512 MB RAM, but I'm sure that will degrade performance for video editing. All of these changes would lower it to $681 - a very nice price for a low-end video editing machine if you have the extra equipment.

Apple's new products are great for people who are looking to try the waters. I hope that the Mac mini & iPod Shuffle sell like hotcakes and help increase Mac marketshare! Hopefully Apple will announce an upgraded eMac G5 soon, as it is far overdue for an update. It would also be nice to see the video ram bumped up to 64 MB from the current 32 MB.

Re:Mac mini vs. eMac

[greulich]

Don't forget that Apple charges exorbitant proces for RAM. Get it third party and save a bunch.

Re:Mac mini vs. eMac

[Anonymous Coward]

If you build-to-order you pay build-to-order prices. If you buy the bottom barrel configuration then upgrade yourself, you end up paying far, far less.

You're paying them to build the system the way you want it. You will pay for that convenience. Doesn't matter who you buy a system from, build-to-order "upgrades" are invariably a ripoff compared to what you can do on your own. Of course, you have to spend the time to install the parts. And time is money. Hence it costs money to have them do it for you.

Run distcc on it as well :-)

[anti-NAT]

distcc

Likihood of PC Owners Switching

[Yergle143]

Question for the /.'rs The cost of a computer can be dwarfed by the cost of the software to run on it. I am argueing with a friend about Apple's potential to capture PC customers. What are the top 10 software programs SOLD for a PC (including games)? Which not available on a Mac? Thanks.

Re:Likihood of PC Owners Switching

[phillymjs]

The first top 10 list I found in a few minutes of Googling is the top 10 PC software titles for 2003:

1. TurboTax 2002 Deluxe, Intuit
2. Norton Antivirus 2003, Symantec
3. TurboTax 2002, Intuit
4. Norton Antivirus, 2004, Symantec
5. TurboTax 2002 Multi State 45, Intuit
6. Taxcut 2002 Deluxe, Block Financial
7. MS Windows XP Home Ed Upgrade, Microsoft
8. MS Office XP Student & Teacher Edition, Microsoft
9. Taxcut 2002 State, Block Financial
10. Norton Internet Security 2003, Symantec
Source: The NPD Group/NPD Techworld

Intuit's tax software is available for the Mac, and the latest version of Quicken ships preinstalled on all Macs. Microsoft Office is available for the Mac. Norton Antivirus is available for the Mac, though you can certainly live without it. Norton Internet Security is not available, and not really needed anyway. Hell, even Windows XP Home can run on the Mac if you buy Virtual PC or the "Pro" version of Mac Office that includes it.

The article with this list does not say that games were excluded, so I am assuming that this means no games sold enough copies in 2003 to make the top 10 for all Windows software titles.

~Philly

Re:Likihood of PC Owners Switching

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, Norton Internet Security IS available for the Mac. Agreed that it's totally unnecessary.

Taxut is also available for the Mac.

Some other apps:
QuickBooks
Final Draft
Pretty much every Adobe product
Pretty much every Macromedia product
Most Corel software
Pro Tools
All Native Instruments software
FileMaker
Sims 2
Doom 3
Halo
Myst 4
True Crime
Unreal 2004

And then there are the apps only available on the Mac:
Final Cut Pro
Logic
Toast
iLife
iWork
DiskWarrior
EyeT V
Acquisition
Motion
DVD Studio Pro
Transmit

Re:Likihood of PC Owners Switching

[phillymjs]

Um, Norton Internet Security IS available for the Mac.

I stand corrected. And frankly, shocked. What could Symantec possibly have to add to the Mac internet experience, in terms of security?

IME, since OS X appeared Symantec's Mac products have caused more problems than they've solved. Sad, really. For years, my entire Mac troubleshooting kit was just the latest Norton Utilties CD and a thick novel to read between support calls and while Disk Doctor worked its magic.

~Philly

A much better "Media Center" machine...

[Anonymous Coward]

(1) add a RAM stick BTO - cheapo
(2) add bluetooth BTO - cheapo
(3) add Wifi card BTO - cheapo
(4) sit unobtrusively to my way-cool existing TV and hook up A/V - nothin'
(5) hook to already existing wifi ADSL-powered network - nothin'
(6) bring in my already existing Sony-Ericsson Z600 - nothin'

Don't forget to upgrade the hard drive BTO to 80GB (the max size for cheap 1.25GHz model). 40GB is not enough for a DVR. You might also need a cheapo TV tuner with hardware MPEG-2 encode like the EyeTV 200 ($329 at Apple Store). You might need a sound upgrade that provides surround and digital outputs like the M-Audio Sonica Theater ($120).

The total cheapo price for your "Media Center" Mac mini with upgraded RAM, bluetooth, Airport, hard drive, TV tuner/encoder, and sound: $1202.

For that price, a much better "Media Center" machine would be a Shuttle Media Center XPC. Sure, it's not quite as tiny as a Mac mini, but you wouldn't need an external TV Tuner/encoder and external sound card. A K 6200m can be configured with internal TV tuner, digital audio out, Wi-Fi, remote control, etc for less than $1000.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[macshit]

Yup, me too. I've been putting off buying a new PC for ages because they all seem really, well, sucky.

So I'm still using a 400MHz P3 -- this new mac may be slow for many but for me it will be great step up. ... and it's beautiful, and small, and elegant, and all those other things other PC makers seem to have utterly no clue about. Even the various companies making small designer cases never seem to really get it right -- they try, but inevitably seem to turn out something just slightly bloated and clunky. Then along comes Apple, and just blows them all away.

See, what apple (but no other company it seems) knows, is that design matters. This is what I want.

Well, I have no money at the moment, but I'll wait a while until I do, and until Linux has been ported (OS/X is nice, sure, but I'm a linux guy), then I'm off to get a mini (and a gig of RAM)...

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[Gilmoure]

I actually like the Logitech multi-media keyboard. It has a nice analog volume dial and play/FF/Rev controls that work great with iTunes.

Kensington's Studio Mouse, with it's scroll slide is really slick. too.

MacMini = Mac ripoff - business as usual

[john bigbootay]

Get the slightly faster model with slightly bigger drive, add wireless, gig of ram, superdrive, wireless keyboard and mouse and... Ta-Da, you've spent $1353.00 and still don't have a monitor. Or, just buy 17" G5 iMac with Superdrive and gig of RAM for $1902.00.

Re:MacMini = Mac ripoff - business as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

Look John Big Booty. Don't buy apple ram and save a bundle...

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[lunartik]

I'll have a nice little toy that'll give me some first-hand experience of MacOS 10.4 plus my girlfriend will have a easy-to-use machine that she can play with when I'm hogging my PC.

Believe me, she'll hardly get to use it. These things have a way of sucking you in.

I think you might be underestimating

[anti-NAT]

As long as the clustered application doesn't shunt arount huge amounts of data, in other words is more compute oriented rather than bulk data processing oriented, the 100 Mbps link would be plenty fast enough.

1Gbps verses 100Mbps only really matters when it comes to data throughput. Latency isn't going to be much different between 1Gbps and 100Mbps, as latency is limited and dictated by the speed of light, not the number of bits per second.

For example, a cluster of theses things would be fine to brute force a crypto key.

Noise From Mac Mini?

[cmholm]

I might point out that "quiet" means different things depending on the environment. In my home office or workplace, a CRT-era iMac seemed dead quiet. It was only when sleeping in the home office/guest bedroom that I realized how irritating hard drive whine can be when it's the *only* sound in the room.

If the Mac mini is any quieter than my iMac DV, it'd pass muster as a video server in my living room.

are you even sane?

[geekoid]

" I have an old Mac tower with 4 drives. Where am I supposed to put all my crap?"

obviously not in a 6x6x2.5 inch box.

It is a all in one unit for thosemwho don't own a Mac. The nnly thin this owuld be usefull for to somelike you is in your entertainment center.

Also,, if you are trying to get people to convert, it would be great to take to someones house, quickly plug it in and give them a sample of the Mac.

Re:MythTV Frontend

[Psykechan]

There is a very functional MythTV frontend for OSX already.

Backend is another story but the frontend is working great. I think this would be great to sit underneath a Gamecube and just use a Bluetooth remote to operate it. Mmmmmm...

imagine...

[Anonymous Coward]

a Beaowulf cluster of Mac minis

On the Mac Mini

[Qbertino]

Steve Jobs hits often and rarely misses. This new stunt is so right on. Since the days he came back to apple and rescued the lot with his candy flavoured who-the-fuck-still-lets-his-users-adjust-a-screen macs he's been on the road to king of the common appliance computer. Everything a half-way tech savy computer user would think of as "gee, this would be nice to have", he comes up with it 2 years later and at least 5 years ahead of everybody else. OS X has fully matured, is solidly welded onto a 100% percent predictable hardware base, is based on 30 years of Unix OS experience with 10 years in the OSS training camp, is practically virus and exploit free and comes with all the goodies anybody would want with a computer an the ability to upgrade the one or other OSS speciality needed in 5 minutes flat.
Bottom line:
I couldn't have done any better, and probably wouldn't have (the meager 128 Megs are probably a teeth gritting compromise they had to swallow, to hone costs and margin-leak).
As of today, I bet all my money on Apple and my pocket cash on OSS. This is the first industry strength 20 inch stainless steel nail in a long series of nails in the coffin of Microsoft and the weedy mess of proprietary x86 crappiness and it's shortcomings. Mark my word.

Re:On the Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Mark my word.

B+

(You would have gotten an 'A' but you should have used "words" since you wrote more than one and therefore should have used the plural form of "word".)

Re:On the Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Bonus: It comes with 256MB of memory!

no they didn't.

[geekoid]

his point was, it is still more expensive then a dell for more features. Hense, STILL MORE EXPENSIVE!

Plus, if you want a functional mac, it will be another 100 bucks, and probablly won't play the next round of games.
So it has less value to a lot of people.

And no spreadsheet software? a lot of people need that for work.

I do not hate Apple, I can just look at something I like without letting my enjoyment stand in the way of common sense and practicallity.

If this thing pans out as a decent piece of hardware(no cracks or heating issues) I may get one of these for my entertainment center.

Re:no they didn't.

[Moofie]

"a dell for more features"...if you don't count the kick ass software bundle. Or the lack of spyware infections. Wait...those are almost like bundled software...

"and probablly won't play the next round of games.
So it has less value to a lot of people."

Right...and your cheap-ass Dell is gonna play a SMOKIN' game of DOOM 5.

"And no spreadsheet software? a lot of people need that for work."

Maybe you've heard of MS Office...?

"If this thing pans out as a decent piece of hardware(no cracks or heating issues) I may get one of these for my entertainment center."

I'll believe it when I see it. You could always find a reason to not buy one.

Re:no they didn't.

[Omestes]

Thing is... My wonderous gameing/work computer died a couple months back, giving me a nervous breakdown, so I shipped it off to my 'rents house. Bought a nice little iBook instead, got a copy of Office. Decided not playing games would be an acceptable sacrafice for not worrying about hardware, or Windows deciding to die from time to time.

And then I discovered that I'm an adult. I don't need a large gaming box to show off how manly I am. Girls never respected my case mods, and I learned why, they are a laughable trend. I learned that I can get more done without messing with the registry, adaware, spybot, defrag, diskclean, and scndisk. Sure, I can't play doom3, or even UT2k3 anymore. But I haven't really noticed, I just dug out my PS1, and my old Dreamcast.

Office on OS X is much better than on Windows. Stable. It hasn't eaten a single doc yet, nor has it completely froze more than once, but it didn't take my OS with it.

I've noticed that my computer habits were wrong. I spent to much time on my stupid glowing, fan encrusted, box. Always tweaking and fixing it. It was like having a bloody second girlfriend, without the perks.

Now my PC is windows free, running Fedora, acting as a nice dumb wifi router with extra HD space.

And, OT, I'm gonna pick up one of these mini's, selling my PC for the price, for a respectable 1.45ghz, 512, superdrive box with Bluetooth, it comes to $900. I'll get it once Tiger comes out, installed on it, so I can use the disks to stick it on my iBook as well, saving myself $200. Then I will be PC free, no more hardware investments after that for 3 years, no not even a video card.

Re:no they didn't.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll get it once Tiger comes out, installed on it, so I can use the disks to stick it on my iBook as well, saving myself $200.

Why not just buy one now and pirate OS X 10.4 as you already plan on doing.

Re: mouse button

[discstickers]

You're missing the point. For the people that care, the context menu is there, but because of the standard one button mouse, designers are forced to not hide functionality in the right click.

sorry, must still wait

[Anonymous Coward]

sure the new mac is less expensive but if I add what is needed to make it usable - wireless and 512 megs of ram the price goes over $1000, the magic limit my company puts on purchase orders that must get approval. If I could buy the base unit and add ram to it myself then I can easily buy one on a company PO. Drat Apple and custom Apple memory.

The common man

[geekoid]

could care less about the OS.
Can I do what I need it to do for 499? That is what they are asking.

Do you know what kind of motor your blender uses? How many copper windings it has?

Re:The common man

[FeloniousPunk]

Sure, I'll take your point. But that invalidates the grandparent post's point; the common man could also care less that the Dell has this or that much more clock cycles in the CPU, or whatever. He will see a computer that is made by those cool guys who made his iPod and looks just as cool compared to some clunky Dell that's 6 times as big. That wil sell plenty of Mini Macs.

Re:The common man

[SilentChris]

Actually, no geek I know of honestly cares how big his rig is. A few care how they look, but most of the time it's to make them more ostentacious (gaudy).

And it's more than just clock cycles. A lot of my favorite programs are (still) not optimized for the Velocity engine. Meanwhile most of the apps on PC are taking advantage of squeezing out every last cycle with low-level instructions. If the performance is flat-out better on the Dell, for what *I* want to do (compile and gaming) I'll go with the Dell.

Mac mini memory is not customer installable.

[Xenex]

* if you choose to upgrade the RAM on your own, you'll pretty much want to drop in 1 GB (+/- $180 at current prices; Apple wants $425) and be done with it. Feed the stock 256MB DIMM to your dog.

And void your warranty; memory is not a customer installable part in the Mac mini.

Re:Mac mini memory is not customer installable.

[jrockway]

Bitch, bitch, bitch. If you're like me then you built your own computer so you could save some money. No warranty there. That linux you use "is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY".

I don't know why you're concerned so much about a warranty. You probably don't need it.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[The Cydonian]

For around £400 (yeah, Apple just like the rest of them loves screwing non-Americans when it comes to exchange rates)

That's only for you Brits. Out here in Singapore, these beasts are rather cheap. :-)

I've gotta admit it: the pricing is AMAZING. With this price, they're no longer competing with Dell or HP/Compaq, but with the Taiwanese PC-clone manufacturers in Sim Lim!

No reason to rip to mp3 with iTunes...

[caveat]

AAC sounds quite a bit better (to me at least, and there's plenty of others who agree), but ALE (Apple Lossless Encoding) spanks both of them - granted it's only about 50% smaller against 90+% for mp3 or AAC, but drive space is cheap these days (i actually bought a 120 gigger recently just to rip CDs to). That being said, I do have iTunes-LAME and it does kick ass.

Laptop / Desktop Cost Discrepancy

[TheKarateMaster]

Why is it that a desktop made primarily from notebook parts (a fairly safe assumption, I think) Costs just over 1/2 of what a semi-comparable notebook from the same company costs? If Apple released a $500 notebook, I would seriously consider it, but at $1000 US... Jeez. But then, I guess that's what eBay is for.

Re:Laptop / Desktop Cost Discrepancy

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the laptop comes with a screen, a keyboard, a pointing device, and some technology that lets it run off a battery, which is also included...

iWork: Anyone know if Pages uses Oasis ?

[Nailer]

Yeah, I'm buying a mini too. Anyway...

Anyone know whether Pages uses the Oasis format?

Mike

just to note

[Enrique1218]

The display lineup took a price cut ($999 for 20")

Ah Ha!

[korielgraculus]

Nobody will ever need more than 1 Gig of RAM!

Hmmm...Sounds familiar!

the Mac mini as a luggable?

[sacrilicious]

Because portable computers wear out so quickly, I've been trying to come up with a realistic system that I could carry from place to place, comprised of parts that are cheaper than a portable. I'm willing to make the compromise of having to plug in to standard AC. Given that, the mac mini seems like a nicely sized cpu/disk combo at a price I'd be willing to pay. I can use a foldable portable keyboard, no problem. Now the part I haven't been able to figure out: what screen could I use? Small screen is perfectly fine. Sometimes I imagine using some pda screen, like a zaurus running vnc logged in over wireless, but I feel it should be possible to undercut the price/size performance of a zaurus when all I need is a screen itself. Anyone know of cheap, small screens that a person can buy a la carte?

Re:the Mac mini as a luggable?

[phillymjs]

I'm willing to make the compromise of having to plug in to standard AC.

If it's at all practical, I wouldn't be surprised if some enterprising vendor whips up some sort of clip-on battery pack in a month or two, and maybe even some sort of screen that attaches to the unit, like those little ones that attach to the PS One.

~Philly

Re:The one mouse button

[Kplusplus]

Now if only they got around to supporting middle click on macs.

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[Scudsucker]

The Mini looks looks like another homerun, their first small form factor PC

Don't forget the Cube. The difference between the Mini and the Cube is that the Cube used expensive parts while the Mini probably uses compenents from the iBook line. Oh, and the Cube went for $1300 more than the Mini, IIRC, and also did not come with a monitor.

Imagine

[imranius]

a beowulf cluster of mac minis.

No, seriously. This would be great to try out!

Oh damn...

[CrazyMalaysian]

From the Mac mini Design page:

Keyboard, iPod mini, dock, hands, AirPort, Bluetooth and PC sold separately.

Guess i wont be getting the iHands with my new Mac mini ;)

Tiger upgrade price?

[deanj]

I have to say that Apple's finally done a good thing by bringing their prices down a bit. This will at least make people not dismiss a Mac out of hand just because of the entry price point. Say what you want about leaving out the monitor keyboard and mouse, but enough people will let that slide and get one.

My real question is, how many of the Mac mini people will upgrade when Tiger rolls out? It's going to be like a $100 upgrade, based on previous major OS releases... is that right?

Weird as it seems to all of us who'd probably get the upgrade even if it was $150, I bet more than a few new Mac users would balk at anything more than a $50 upgrade cost.

Re:Tiger upgrade price?

[Anonymous Coward]

They're aiming for existing PC users with this box.

Meaning Mac Mini users will soon be able to get the OS upgrade from an additional thousand-or-so sources on Shareaza, of course.

Re:Tiger upgrade price?

[hunterx11]

If an OS upgrade comes out within a certain timespan of getting a new Mac, you can get it for $20. I did.

Re:Tiger upgrade price?

[darkpurpleblob]

Do you know the length of the timespan for such a deal?

Re:Tiger upgrade price?

[Anonymous Coward]

Any Mac bought after Tiger's release date is announced.

Re:Tiger upgrade price?

[hunterx11]

Panther came out 2003-10-04 and the up-to-date program for it extended until 2004-02-29.

Re:Why not 8 weeks earlier?

[nuggetman]

Because now there's a whole year for the kiddies to build up the "i want it!" factor, which there probably wouldn't have been enough time for prior to christmas.

The Word For The Day Is "Computer"

[meehawl]

obviously, you have not heard of the iPod...

Obviously you have found some secret way to make an iPod work as a computer or server, with four-figure USPs and high margins to boot.

iPod is a nice product but it is a distraction for a company like Apple. The smartest way to continue as a of any note would be emulate 3Com/Palm and divest itself of iPod, spinning off the division into a separate company. Better for the shareholders as well. Apple currently basically makes no profit from selling computer hardware, so you have massive inefficiencies within the company being disguised by the temporary profits from selling iPod baubles in shopping malls and Best Buy for chickenfeed.

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[LS]

Umm, what other revenue generating services besides iTunes do they offer that indicates to you that there is some repositioning going on?

LS

Insignificance

[meehawl]

Who cares about market share?

Apple is a very profitable company with no debt and huge cash reserves.

Ys, that's what they said about SGI, once upon a time. Look, Apple has some nice third-party software available for it, but most or all of that is going to fade away eventually if its market share stays so abysmally low. That's why people "care" about market share. Apple's cash reserves, while large for such a small company, are not infinite and it cannot afford to continue to subsidise the creation of an ever-increasing portion of Macintosh software by itself.

And if you break down Apple's profits for the past couple of years, you see that it makes basically zero profit from its computer hardware business. Zero. That's pretty piss-poor. It's basically being subsidised by the sales of low-end trinkets like the iPod and accessories. If it was possible I'd buy shares in an Apple iPod company, but not in the current Apple Computer company because so much of it is just a write-off, profit-wise. Divest!

Re:Insignificance

[afidel]

Yep, and all of that cash kept SGI around long enough for them to reinvent themselves. That's why the world's #2 supercomputer is an SGI. Besides SGI never even had single digit marketshare, they were always a niche player, their niche just changed. Zero profit on hardware is a LOT better than most companies do, HP loses money on PC's, so did IBM before they jetisoned that unit. Basically Dell is the only one making any money on PC hardware, and not a whole lot.

No screen on iPod Shuffle. Bah!

[superdude72]

For about the same amount of money as the 512MB iPod Shuffle, you can get a flash-memory-based 256MB Rio Cali.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0 00 0AXKBK/103-1100119-7537416?v=glance

The Cali also has a screen and an FM tuner.

So: storage capacity or a screen + radio? I'll take the screen + radio, thank you.

Except... er. My Rio Cali doesn't play AAC files. I didn't care about that when I bought it, but I've been using the iTunes store more and more. I never thought I would, but it's just so damn easy compared to ferreting stuff out on KaZaA. That inferface is like crack.

Re:No screen on iPod Shuffle. Bah!

[Yosho]

The Cali is also 2.5" x 2.6" x 0.8" at 1.8 ounces, versus the iPod Shuffle's 3.3" x 0.33" x 0.98" at 0.78 ounces. It's a lot smaller. Think of it more as a USB memory stick that also just happens to be capable of playing music.

Can I use my iBook as kvm?

[mjc_w]

I have a g4 ibook, and wonder if, by connecting either by ethernet cable or wirelessly, I can use the mm without a separate keyboard, monitor, and mouse?

tia

Re:Can I use my iBook as kvm?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, this is Slashdot. You've been around long enough to know the answer to that: VNC or some variation. Jeez, that type of newbie FAQ belongs on the Apple boards.

They are changing the world, AGAIN

[cyfer2000]

BEFORE: How comes there is no...

AFTER: Why we need...

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, no PS/2 ports. (but I'm sure there are PS/2-to-USB converters out there somewhere...)

For a USB mouse, I'd recommend Logitech MX310 which I also own. It has 6 programmable keys (I have it set to 1 - Left Click, 2 - Right Click, 3 - Command Click, 4 - Shift Click, 5 - Option Click, 6 - Expose Keystroke) for $30, IIRC. If you're getting a cordless mouse, I'd recommend one with a cradle for easy recharging.

USB Keyboard - Stay away from Logitech ones. They do something annoying with the F1 - F12 keys. Maybe Apple are the best makers of Mac keyboards.

Wow, great for a cable box / HDTV recorder

[Whatsmynickname]

If the reports are true (DVI output, firewire), the Mac Mini would be perfect for my home HDTV firewire recorder! Mac already has a DVHS recorder, and would work with my cable box (with firewire) and HDTV w/DVI input.

For some reason, the firewire MPEG-TS output is not blocked (encrypted) as I tried other software on my XP based laptop). I was looking at a Shuttle, but the Mini would be better. Apple, here I come!

Imagine...

[jbreese]

Imagine a beowulf cluster of these things...

Corporate / Schools: physical security

[KMSelf]

I'd hope Apple would come out with a security kit other than your standard laptop cable. These generally just fit into a plastic case slot, and the only real security value is that the case is damaged when the unit is stolen.

The damned thing's so small you'd have a significant number of 'em "walking". Not good.

That's one of the advantages of a standard tower design. They're sort of tough to slip into a purse/backpack.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[BlueCodeWarrior]

Google up Yellow Dog Linux, and I think Debian (and one other) have PowerPC ports.

Keyboard, monitor, battery

[KMSelf]

I've had a CappuccinoPC Mocha P4 for the past couple of years. It's similar in concept to the Mac Mini: small enclosure (mini-ITX), lots of ports (2 NICs, serial, parallel, 4x USB, audio in/out, video in/out, firewire...). But keyboard, monitor, and mouse are sseparate.

That's actually a bonus:

• I already had a keyboard, mouse, and monitor. Though not as nice as I'd wanted....
• Keyboard ($10) and mouse ($14) are pretty damned cheap.
• For $350 I got a really nice 19" CRT monitor.
• If any of keyboard, mouse, or monitor go south, you replace them for $10, $14, $150-$350, or out of current inventory.
• Meantime, the CPU itself sits safely out of harm's way. Most "accidents" are spills or drops, or just too much handling.
• The unit slides into my satchel for ready use at home, work, client site, etc. All I need are a kbd/mouse/monitor to use it. And guess what: most sites already have these.

Modularization is a benefit.

The main grip I've had is that it's not possible to use the unit in transit. CappuccinoPC claimed they'd be coming out with a battery pack, but AFAIK haven't. And there's no seperable LCD display available I've found that's appropriate (I'm thinking $100-$200 pricepoint for a 4x6 640x480 or 800x600 screen -- enough to work on the run).

If Apple could push for that to come out, it would be ideal. Leave the Mac Mini in its bag with a battery pack. Display with a wire stand and/or velcro backing sits on your cafe table or airplane seat back. Keyboard and mouse/trackpad in front of you. Do work.

Re:ANOTHER SHAMELESS MARKETING PLOY FROM APPLE

[Anonymous Coward]

1.42ghZ? PLU-EEZE!

That's what pretty much destroyed your credibility from my perspective. Clockspeed does NOT matter, and it does NOT transfer from one processor type (x86) to another (powerpc).

Secondly, though I like Linux, Macs simply *work*. I don't need to fuck with packages, install missing codecs, or try to find drivers. It WORKS. Windows also has problems, mostly from Microsoft not caring, at all, about security.

If you care about games, by all means, stay with your Linux computer. If not, try the Mac. It can do everything the Linux comp can, only better.

serious Mini Mac design flaw

[Anonymous Coward]

the Mini Mac has only 2 USB ports. it does NOT ship with a keyboard. most non-Apple keyboards do NOT double as USB hubs. and Apple's own illustrations of setting up the Mini Mac show an old USB keyboard and mouse both plugging directly into the Mini Mac.

So: after you've plugged in your old extra non-Apple keyboard and mouse, you decide to plug in your USB printer.

But there's no place to put a 3rd USB device.

This is SO stupid and shortsighted of Apple!

Re:serious Mini Mac design flaw

[diamondc]

duh, just buy a usb hub (20$). also my M$ keyboard has two extra usb ports on it.

Not at all identical

[SuperKendall]

If you look at onyl the hardware, perhaps it's similar.

But you, and others, ignore the degree of hardware/software inetgration going on to make this more practical to use with a large amount of music.

Plus how many of the "show company" players act as a USB drive with no external adaptor required?

Any way you slice it, it's well thought out and adds real value to the space. Like all other Apple products, it combines a bunh of features that various people had already but in somewhat unique ways and with good engineering behind them.

Re:Not at all identical

[IncohereD]

Plus how many of the "show company" players act as a USB drive with no external adaptor required?

Have you ever seen a Creative Muvo(/TX/NX)? There's many others, as well.

Mod Parent Up!

[jensen404]

That was my prediction for the Shuffle when I heard that it would have no screen. It would be easy to shuffle between 20 albums in alphabetical order if the names were read to you.

The voice synthesis would be done by iTunes, and saved as a low bit rate ACC or MP3 file and transfered to the player.

really can do software mod for free?

[mk500]

Don't you have to at least buy a copy of Mech Warrior or some game to hack it? Can you provide a link to the fully free (nothing additional needed) method?

Re:really can do software mod for free?

[mbourgon]

What I did was rent it. I used 007:AUF, not Mechassault, though the exploit is similar. You only need it once.

You'll also need a memory card that you can put the savegame on. I wound up buying a $7 USB/Xbox adapter that let me use a USB thumbdrive (the adapter was for the Phantasy Star Online game, so you could use a keyboard), and a $10 thumbdrive that had 16mb (I seem to remember that the max size of the stick could only be 32mb or something like that). There's a couple other ways. The "Action Replay" game, though that's $30.

So, Xbox + $7 adapter + $10 memory card + several hours of effort (finding the exploit, loading the exploit, and finding compiled XBMC) gives you a PVR. Except that it's loud as heck.

And all of this is irrelevant for the newer Xboxes anyhow, from what I remember. Buy an old one, used, etc.

And from looking at xbox-linux.org, you can find someone local who's willing to do it for you.

Re:really can do software mod for free?

[Jagasian]

I bought MechAssault (used for $15) and an Action Replay ($20), which lets me connect an Xbox save card to a PC via USB. I have then hacked over 7 Xbox's of friends and family by lending these things to them.

Once hacked, you no longer need these parts, especially if you do one of the latest Dashboard exploits, like UDE. The hack is as good as a mod-chip, except it is allot easier to install and remove, unlike mod-chips which require you to rip apart your Xbox.

I use one button mouse

[cyfer2000]

And I switch it from left hand to right hand and back in maybe every hour. And it works exactly the same in my both hands.

As a LOSER you would know

[Anonymous Coward]

LOSE! THE WORD IS LOSE! Learn to spell.

As a monumental loser I'm sure that you experience the word "lose" quite frequently. However you should really take your meds and not bother to make a post every time someone make a simple typo. Losen up a bit. :-)

Re:Must not be trolls if Mini fixes their complain

[Feral Bueller]

Apple's worst enemies are the fanboys who think Apple can do no wrong. Thankfully Apple seems to be listening to the market not the fanboys.

No. Those are Apple's second worst enemies.

Apple's worst enemies are the people who predicted Apple's demise when they stopped shipping with floppies.
Then predicted Apple's demise when they started using USB.
Then predicted Apple's demise when they completely changed their OS.
Then predicted Apple's demise when they stopped supporting their venerable OS and declared it dead.

There are people who have predicted Apple's demise since 1984 when they came out with that useless Graphical Interface thingy. People will always complain about what Apple doesn't do. Have fun. I've been using Apple product for years: the only apps I've ever needed to run that I couldn't run in emulation or run an Apple equivalent were games. That's it.

Ultimately Doom 3 is pretty, but just another Doom. HL 2 is pretty, but just another HL, and frankly I'm over staying up late shooting 13 year old stat whores in the head.

Since World of Warcraft plays just fine on my Aluminum PowerBook, I have no need for a PeeCee, and I'm kept more than busy by that, HomeWorld 2, and all the games on my XBox and Playstation2. Other than that, Word runs fine, Excel runs fine, vi runs fine, and at work I use Remote Desktop Connection to view Outlook on my now headless POS Dell, which allows me to use both 20" LCDs on my G4.

We are now into the 5th year of the 21st century. Shut up about the mouse and the keyboard already. if you must run Windows or wish to run an inferior *nix window manager, feel free.

I'll take my Mac. And I'll take one of those Mac minis too. Personally, I think miniMac is a cooler name, but Steve didn't call me first.

Dude,little kids are going to growup on this ship!

[KrazzeeKooter]

Think about this, what computer is "safe" enough and cool enough and cheap enough to buy for your kid.

What computer is going to sit in a kids bedroom. What can you throw a few bucks at without worrying to much about where it's going to be in a year... without worrying about viruses, without worrying about maintence. Something your kid can IM on, send email to their friends, play with photos and video, do their homework, watch a movie. What computer can give a reasonable amount of control to the parent and freedom to the kid? What computer not only will look good in every kids room in america but is safe enough to go in every kids room in america.

You might need to disable software downloads and get some nanny blocker software on the web browser, but that's it! I think you're looking at the first computer that can and will make it into the rooms of every kid in america.

It's got the garage band and all the editing software you need for music, photo and video. It can come with the .mac account, with web hosting, and the email, the blogging software. It can even burn DVDs at $599. Throw in the cheap digital still/video camera, wireless keyboard and mouse, a nice little flat pannel, don't forget the iPod Shiffle. What about a Music Store allowance! Not all at one time, a birthday here, christmas, whenever. We're still talking well under a grand.

Dude kids are going to grow up on this shit the way we grew up on atari and nintendo and I'm fuscking jealous!

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[Anonymous Coward]

That would probably because 10.4 isn't out yet, so nothing ships with it.

If you can hold out for a bit longer, and Tiger actually ships in the first half of this year, I'm sure that it'll come with the Mac Mini.

Not exactly

[Thu25245]

The 'special apple [command] keys' are used to actuate keyboard shortcuts (command-c for copy, command-v for paste, etc.) like the CTRL keys on a PC keyboard.

The control keys on a Mac keyboard are used to call up the contextual (right-click) menus.

Plug a PC keyboard into a Mac, though, and the ctrl keys will work like command keys (or something like that, IIRC.)

but which is the better buy...

[Anonymous Coward]

ONE Dual 2.5GHz PowerMac or SIX Mac Minis? I could build my own "Big Mac" out of "Mini Macs...

Imagine a beowulf... well you get the idea.

MacWorld Gallery

[Thabenksta]

Lindrone from the ipod studio created a very extensive gallery of the show.

http://ipodstudio.com/photopost/showgallery.php? ca t=544

Please don't wait to buy a Mac!

[beetle496]

Waiting for the iPod to come down to $199 didn't work. At best maybe you can buy an iPod mini at that cost for Christmas '05.

Waiting for the iPod mini to come down to $99 didn't work, you get a Shuttle instead.

For $249, don't ever expect more than an iPod photo (okay, maybe one with video) and that won't be until MWSF 2007.

If you haven't figured out the pattern yet, Apple only rarely lowers prices. They much prefer to add features at a given price point. The Mini Mac is the wonderful exception! What proves the rule before that was the Bondi iMac.

Do you really want to wait another six and a half years to have a good excuse to try OS X? Buy a Mac now already!

Careful with those used Apple keyboards

[beetle496]

Or just pick up a used Mac one on eBay for a song

The really inexpensive Apple keyboards use an ADB connectors. Those will not help you at all!

I am using a Windows USB keyboard on my G4 Mac. It is no problem at all.

Re:This is so tempting

[guet]

Get one and run linux on it too... you can even do some GNUStep stuff in Objective-C and have it run on both (bit limited though).

Try Ruby too if you're learning a new language.

The single mouse button, again

[Nice2Cats]

Interestingly enough, OS X supports the functions of multi-button mice; you just can't buy an Apple-made multi-button mouse.

I have an external USB mouse by now and no, it is still crap: The second mouse button is next to useless compared to what KDE offers, and the middle mouse button is totally useless. The ability to add an external mouse with more than one button is clearly an afterthought, grudgingly supported.

This simply comes nowhere near what KDE lets you do with the mouse: Most of KDE is a series of right-button, left-button combinations that let yo do almost everything, and let you do it fast. All X normally lets you mark (left button) text and paste (middle button) with the mouse, which Apple has decided to kill with OS X -- stupid, because you now have to used Command c and Command v and such. Takes for bloody ever.

I've come to the conclusion that the single mouse button is actually something of a marketing issue that is kept in the face of switcher exasperation to give the Macs their own character. Apple has gotten rid of the ADC interface in favor of DVI -- it is time they admitted that more than one mouse button lets you get stuff done faster, too, and stop this kind of "different for its own sake" crap. Just about everybody grows up with more than one mouse button these days. It's a standard feature. People want it. What do see more of, new Mac users running around saying "thank God, that second mouse button was just too confusing" or new Mac users running around saying "wait a minute, what happend to my other button?"

Re:The single mouse button, again

[HuguesT]

Under X (e.g. KDE) right button-left button copy and paste only works for text. Try it.

Under KDE to copy and paste something else (e.g. a picture) you have to use Control-C/Control-V.

Under MacOS/X, if you have more than one button on your mouse, right-button-left button copy and paste *works* in the Terminal application. Try it. handy with vi, emacs, etc.

Finally the extra buttons are useful under MacOS/X. Scroll wheel work, etc. Right click brings up a menu in all apps. What are you complaining about exactly?

Re:The single mouse button, again

[Nice2Cats]

What are you complaining about exactly?

You rehashed my complaints pretty well, but obviously you don't understand the problem.

Mark (not: cut) and paste with left and middle (not: right) mouse buttons works for just about every form of text under X11, not only one application. It is enormously important for people like me who do lots and lots of text work with different applications -- with my iBook, I'm forced to use the keys where it used to be mouse only. This has really hit my productivity. Thanks to the single mouse button, I don't get things done as fast on the iBook.

Second, "useful" is not good enough. It is true that the right button, after you have paid more money to have one, brings up a menu, but it is only a small, pitiful menu with just about zero contextual intelligence. They are an obvious afterthought, badly executed.

For example, put a music CD in your Mac. ITunes will show it on the source list to your left. Now, right click on the "Audio CD" entry. All you get are iTunes help, Open, Get Info, Eject disc, Copy to play order, Reset play order. That's all. What you do not get is, for example, "Get CD track names", even though this is probably one of the most common actions with unknown audio discs. To do that, you have to move all the way up to the menu bar on the top; if you have two screens and iTunes is on the secondary one, you even have to move all the way up and over.

Explain to me again why this is clever design.

As for the third mouse button: The scroll wheel is not a third mouse button, it is a scroll wheel, the "fourth feature", if you want. OS X doesn't seem to support the middle mouse button at all, and so you loose the ability to call up a whole new menu. KDE, for example, uses it so you can quickly jump between applications. Since OS X doesn't have virtual screens (but that is a different rant), this would be even more important on Macs than KDE. Exposé is cute, but it takes too much time.

Of course, you will not be convinced. And frankly, I have come to see the single mouse button as something that is a religious issue for the older generation of Mac users, who will defend its inadequacy for its own sake, and even in the face of just about every single person who has switched from a different operating system to OS X. It was a good idea when mice first came out (80's?) and were potentially confusing, but now it is simply an atavism. The sooner it goes the way of the ADC interface (I note with interest that it's DVI with all new machines) and Apple starts getting serious about providing and supporting the other buttons, the sooner we can all get our work done faster.

Re:iMac Mini: Missed Opprotunity

[CosmicDreams]

Ah, that's good. So at least the iMac Mini can use a High - end TV as a monitor. I still would have liked to see some kind of TV in, so that you could manipulate it to be a tv (or HDTV) recorder.

I can't get past the feeling that the current design doesn't meet its potential. It seems like they made some sacrifices to keep the price down. I suppose though that if there is a demand for more technology its possible that Apple will get there.

And 48 hours later

[commodoresloat]

Some doofus will have posted a page about how to take it apart and put a pentium in it ....

Lack of screen is a feature!

[beetle496]

I am delighted that there is no screen, nor even an LCD display. The LEDs bother me a little, but they are probably redundant. Why you ask? I have several friends and collegues that are blind. Short of reloading the OS, no MP3 player has support for speaking menus.

Imagine if Apple got serious about Media PC.

[guidryp]

Something like this, but a tad bigger, more powerful with more A/V connections and wireless keyboard/remote and some slick Apple media PC center software.

I would buy one in a heartbeat and I haven't used a Mac since University and they were 68K machines.

Re:Imagine if Apple got serious about Media PC.

[Malic]

As I've been saying all day, the Mac Mini is just a bluetooth remote and an iLife application away from being a PVR with content served from a not-yet-but-soon iTMS. That's iTV Movie Store.

Look for it at MacExpo 2006.

Re:Imagine if Apple got serious about Media PC.

[guidryp]

Sound is an issue.

I use my current Nforce PC with digital out to drive my DD/DTS reciever. If I can't do that it is a no go.

Re:Imagine if Apple got serious about Media PC.

[robosmurf]

True, but there are plenty of USB digital audio adaptors available.

Re:Imagine if Apple got serious about Media PC.

[guidryp]

USB Audio: Kludgy and for a price higher than an Nforce motherboard with built in Digital out(I have one; it is great).

Cute case only gets it so far. In this day everything should have built in digital Audio out. I won't buy a computer that doesn't have it.

This was my whole point in stating there should be another model better suited to being a Media PC.

With Apples great interface design team making a usable pvr/player SW and more A/V IO they could make a Media PC that leaves the XPC media PC's in the dust. While nice the mini isn't quite up to that task.

Re:Imagine if Apple got serious about Media PC.

[Anonymous Coward]

You can get an M-Audio Transit (smaller than an ipod mini) for less than $60 on ebay. Combine that with the mini's $20 student discount, and DTS sound is pretty easily added.

Can your Nforce PC sit on top of a TV?

God Dammit!

[OS24Ever]

I kept telling myself.

I don't need one.

I Don't need one. I just got a 20" iMac G5.

I Don't need one, my kid uses my old 15" iMac 800MHz

I don't need one.

Then you got to go and post a damn reason I need one now!!

Re:God Dammit!

[BWJones]

He he.....yeah. Sorry about that. :-)

I just came up with another reason though......

Running some calculations on performance for an upcoming project got me to thinking. For computational performance: What is the optimal solution for a series of calculations? Two dual G5 cluster node Xserves, or eight Mini Macs? Turns out it is eight Mini Macs (for my immediate needs at least.) We will get the Xserves for other reasons, but for a quick little inexpensive cluster for testing, a (literal) bookshelf full of Mini Macs may be just the ticket.

Re:God Dammit!

[OS24Ever]

yeah I thought of that too. Thankfully I can't think of a reason to need a cluster of little computers other than the geek factor.

Though I've been thinking since yesterday Hmm, Mac OS X Server run on this?

Re:Dude,little kids are going to growup on this sh

[Anonymous Coward]

You might need to disable software downloads and get some nanny blocker software on the web browser, but that's it!

Evidently, Apple agrees.

Re:ANOTHER SHAMELESS blah blah troll

[duffel]

I find it amusing that you complain about the marketing when that was basically the deciding factor that made the pc popular in the first place... ah well.

I shant bother addressing your other "points". Most of them are countered somewhere within this thread, have a browse.

Making the audio out more home theater friendly...

[NeoBeans]

I did a Google and found this...

Virtual Surround Sound USB Audio Adapter for your PC or Laptop

...which for $29.95 gives you an optical out from USB. Combined with the Mac Mini, I think this makes for a killer system, since it'll interface nicely to my 46" LCD television.

I can't wait to get it all wired up and on to my network!

Not all rumors panned out

[beetle496]

I though the eMac was suppose to get a big bump to 1.6GHz G5?
That would have been problematic for a G4 Mac Mini. And for the the G5 iMac

But isn't the G5 suppose to be less expensive (for Apple) than the G5?

Barnum Was Right

[Anonymous Coward]

You Macinistas crack me up! $500 for a box you can't open, can't upgrade yourself, have to add more RAM to even get it to run right, AND *you* provide the keyboard, monitor, and even the fucking mouse! And you all stand around drooling "Thank you, Technomessiah Steve, may I have another?"

Wotta buncha maroons!

Re:Barnum Was Right

[Anonymous Coward]

>Macinistas

Is that a dance?

Doesn't seem to be mentioned on the QT feed...

[soullessbastard]

Disclaimer: I'm a developer of OpenOffice.org for Mac OS X and a founder of the NeoOffice project

I've seen this mentioned in a number of places now. I just watched the QuickTime feed of the keynote for the iWork section (starts at about 1hr 3 mins) and heard no mention of spreadsheets or "Cell" in that section. It goes straight from pages to the Mac mini. Did I just miss it?

Also of note: while it appears iLife is going to continue to be bundled with new Macs, it is unclear if iWork is going to be bundled at all. I don't think Keynote is presently bundled with any configs, but they just may not have yet updated the Apple store. It would truly honk for low-end Macs if the death of AppleWorks meant that users had to pay for software. Kinda funny since, after all, they include GraphicConverter but don't bother to preload a FOSS office suite ;)

ed

Re:Doesn't seem to be mentioned on the QT feed...

[brwski]

Actually, AppleWorks is still bundled with the miniMac. Take a look at the "Technical Specifications" page for the mini. It's not Pages + Keynote, but it at least gives the people a basic package to start with.

On another note, what would be great as a result of all this is a crash in used-Mac prices. This could bring that dual 800 I've been wanting in to my financial neighborhood...isn't paying for past schooling wonderful?

brwski

Re:Doesn't seem to be mentioned on the QT feed...

[jmelloy]

I was in an IRC room, and one of the people watching the keynote said a spreadsheet app (Grids) was mentioned as coming out soon.

I didn't see it on the quicktime stream, either, so maybe that was a hoax.

Re:Doesn't seem to be mentioned on the QT feed...

[Anonymous Coward]

iWork isn't bundled with any hardware yet.

There was no mention of a spreadsheet program. The slogan in the Keynote presentation was "Building a replacement for AppleWorks". Note the present participle "building" indicating that iWork is a work in progress.

I bet we will see new productivity apps added to iWork over time, and in the near future.

Incidently I don't think MS is afraid of Pages - it's really a PageMaker replacement more than a Word replacement. Apple avoided attacking Office head-on. As someone else said it's like InDesign "Lite".

For all those "just buy a Shuttle"...

[Whatsmynickname]

I was seriously looking at building a Shuttle, but let's compare it to the Mac Mini

For the Shuttle, you can either buy a complete system from them and spend twice as much or build a system. Don't forget the CPU. And the RAM, and the hard drive, and the DVD drive. At this point, it's about the same cost as a base Mac Mini.

Even if you add the Mac Mini DVD burner, larger hard drive and extra RAM, you're still not saving much with the Shuttle. I'm not even going to mention the operating system and having to set it all up...

Please don't counter with a el cheapo price quote from some other scum dealer either, just Newegg... If you counter, make sure it has the same features also...

Or buy the Mac Mini, with the OS installed, plug it in, and have it up and running.

The mini has a DVI output for an HDTV monitor and Firewire for either DV or cable box (MPEG-TS) input. I personally think the Mini price is great for what you get. Especially if you want it in your living room next to your HDTV as a Media Center...

Re:For all those "just buy a Shuttle"...

[cheese_wallet]

The weak spot that I see with the mini is the slow cpu, and the cost of ram from apple, and that it *seems* that you aren't allowed to open it.

I bought a small form factor amd64 3000+, and it came with a wireless mouse & keyboard, radeon with more ram, and a tv tuner. That cost $900 a few months ago. But I wanted more, so I upgraded the video card and ram. I could get a faster cpu too.

That option doesn't exist on this mac... I mean, I can upgrade the ram from the factory, but that seems to be the limit. Regardless, I'm probably going to get one. I've wanted a mac for a while. I'll just have to evaluate if it would be a better buy to get the imac (at least it's a g5)

Re: Dells

[Rick and Roll]

Intel Extreme. Lame.

iPod shuffle battery?

[aarku]

So what happens when the battery in this thing bums out? That's a pretty expensive pack of gum to replace.

Re:iTunes AutoFill in 4.7.1 -- For iPodShuffle onl

[WCityMike]

Can anyone advise whether iTunes 4.7.1's AutoFill feature works only for the iPod Shuffle or whether it works for all iPods? It'd be sweet if it took care of my iPod Mini, but given Apple's history of quickly abandoning older generations of iPod users, I wouldn't be surprised if it's not available.

Evidently Apple only offers this feature in association with the iPod Shuffle. Damn it.

USB drive functionality?

[Anonymous Coward]

Will the iPod shuffle appear as a disk drive on a Windows XP system (and OS X and Linux?) just like a USB drive? Hope so.

mini vs. shuttle, the numbers...

[cwg_at_opc]

i decided to build up a shuttle with similar capabilities(using newegg):

Shuttle XPC Model SN41G2V3 - Item#N82E16856101460 $269.00

AMD Mobile Athlon XP 2500+ - Item#N82E16819103401 $88.00

Geil 512MB(256MBx2) - Item#N82E16820144309 $80.00

Western Digital 80GB - Item#N82E16822144122 $60.33

NEC 16X Double Layer DVD±RW - Item#N82E16827152037 $67.99

Logitech diNovo Cordless - Item#N82E16823126166 $125.00

NETGEAR Dual Band Wireless PCI - Item#N82E16833122126 $71.99

Innocom V.92/56KData/Fax/voice Modem - Item#N82E16825100103 $21.50

ATI RADEON 9200 128MB DDR - Item#N82E16814102287 $93.50

Windows XP Media Center 2005 - Item#N82E16832102311 $131.00

Office Small Business 2003 - Item#N82E16837116148 $331.00

Intuit Quicken 2005 Basic - Item#N82E16832109137 $36.00
total: $1,374.81

the mac is a BTO, added BT, AP, BT-keyboard and mouse

Mac mini 1.42GHz Accessory kit
Internal Bluetooth + AirPort Extreme Card
80GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive
56K v.92 Modem
512MB DDR333 SDRAM - 1 DIMM
Mac OS X - U.S. English - P/N: Z0B8 $903.00

Wireless Keyboard & Mouse Set - P/N: B9396LL/A $99.00

Office 2004 for Mac - P/N: T9189LL/A $399.95
total: $1,401.95

differences for the shuttle:
DVD burner(the only silver ones were 16x).
Modem(has to be external if you want PCI-802.11a/b/g)

summary:
shuttle pluses
- you can build it yourself
- you can upgrade it yourself
- games(!)
shuttle minuses
- you can build it yourself
- you can upgrade it yourself
- Windows
- finding drivers, updating patches
- fan noise

mac mini pluses
- its very small
- its very quiet
- it looks nicer(subjective)
- the software is preinstalled
- there's more software included(appleworks, iLife, garage band, iMovie, iDVD)
mac mini minuses
- you can't upgrade it
- you can't make it faster(see previous)
- it's easy to steal(not showing up in any offices anytime soon)
- games :-( (that would be a LACK of games, although that's changing, slowly)

so once you've added up all the stuff you need to match the mini, you end up darn near close;
a $27.14 difference in favor of the Shuttle.

Re:mini vs. shuttle, the numbers...

[iroll]

Does the shuttle come with a standard laptop security slot, so that it can be locked down? Mini does, and since most of that kind of crime is crimes of convinience.... there goes that arguement :D

Re:mini vs. shuttle, the numbers...

[cwg_at_opc]

sorry, i missed the security lock; didn't notice it while perusing the mac mini pages, so you're right, that's one less "-".

just so you know, i first posted from my work mac(pm-g4/400) and this reply from my pismo at home(pb-g3/500); the wife uses a flower-power iMac(g3/500), i've also owned a performa 6400, and still have a 7200 and a 9500 in the garage right now - semi-retired; and when i will the lottery, i'll be getting a NEW powerbook, so some _might_ call me a 'fanboy'.

however, i built my own PC last year so i could learn more about PCs and linux(XPpro as well, and MS Windows _still_ sucks). i started with red hat9, and graduated to gentoo(2.4 through 2.6.10, yay fluxbox and UT2004) so i'm not unfamiliar with PC components, assembling my own, making ISOs, and my current personal fave, emerge :-)
here's what i put together:
dfi lanparty nf2 ultra(a)
AMD barton 2500+ over-clocked to 200x10 on air
xfx fx5900xt(no vesafb-tng, so no gensplash, boo)
3x256MB pc2700
maxtor 120GB7200/8MB
tdk DVD+rw, etc.

anyway, i tried to be fair when doing the comparison; so i chose the options that matter the most to me(airport, wireless)

i expect there will be many, many comparisons, i just wanted to share mine...

Re:mini vs. shuttle, the numbers...

[MasonMcD]

Office 2004 for Mac - P/N: T9189LL/A $399.95

If you're going to note the lack of upgradability for the mac mini, you might as well just get the $149 Office 2004 for students and teachers. Same software - no upgrading.

That shaves $250 off the mini price to a more competitive $1151 to the shuttle's $1374 - a ~ $225 price advantage.

Re:mini vs. shuttle, the numbers...

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell is the "Mac OS X - U.S. English - P/N: Z0B8 $903.00" line item???

The OS is included free with the Mini. Unless you're trying to add pricing for server software, I have no idea what you're adding here. Plus, OS X costs $200 for a new license.

Re:mini vs. shuttle, the numbers...

[cwg_at_opc]

Ok. let's try this:

1 - go to store.apple.com
2 - go to the 'mini' page
3 - select the 1.42Ghz model
4 - configure it with more ram, BT and AP, KB and mouse
5 - click on "add to cart"
6 - click on "view cart" or "edit cart"
7 - all the optional items have been added up and listed as one item

as i said in one of my previous posts, cutting and pasting and HTMLifying is a PITA and leads to odd assumptions. again, configure a mini and a shuttle yourself(the one i chose is the one suggested on pcstats.com "Mac Builds a Shuttle, Shuttle Builds a Mac") and see it with your own eyes; you don't actually believe _everything_ you read do you? ;-)

Re:mini vs. shuttle, the numbers...

[oscast]

You (like every other person on the web that has compared prices) is mitigating the cost of iLife on the PC. If you're going to compare them across the board, you need to find matches for iMovie, iDVD and Garageband for the PC. I've done the comparison and found that comparable products for Windows will set you back an additional $250 - $300.

So in reality, the price difference is $222.86 (conservative) in favor of the Mac mini.

Re:mini vs. shuttle, the numbers...

[cwg_at_opc]

thanks for reminding me about the software we sort of take for granted. could you please list the comparable software titles for everyone else?

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[nikster]

clones? here is why not:
1) Apple makes a profit on every single Mac mini. trading profits for market share is dot-bomb era style. Apple won't do it.
2) Apple makes almost all of their money from hardware.
3) Apple is distinguished by design. Their industrial design dept. is about 10 years ahead of everybody else. It follows: Clones will be ugly.
4) clones will eat into market share in the high end. doh!

there is no benefit that Apple could gain from clones. if person A buys a clone instead of a mac, it doesn't increase market share. it just decreases sales.

Re:The one mouse button

[Fwonkas]

Because the Firefox developers followed the Mac user interface guidelines on the Mac version, when you click a link in Firefox with a one-button mouse, it performs the action most commonly expected -- open the page in the current tab. If you click AND HOLD, or if you press the control key, it brings up a contextual menu which offers you a wealth of other choices (new window, new tab, download, bookmark, ...).

The irony here being that click and hold does nothing in Safari.

Mini: geektool & custom applications platform

[gg510]

I haven't seen this mentioned so far:

Think of all the instances where you have a customer who needs an inexpensive processor/controller similar to an industrial PC, or an "adjunct device" to add functionality to another system.

For example infrastructure in commercial buildings (HVAC control, energy-systems control, security & access control) and residential equivalents, various types of process-control, science lab applications, etc. All of those industrial use-cases that currently tend to default to Windows machines (which in turn go buggy when some nitwit pops in a CD full of infected games they downloaded) or where you want to (or have to) scratchbuild a machine to run an open-source OS.

In the past you'd assemble a PC from parts (about $250), compile and/or load your preferred OS, test & debug, etc. (a few hours' labor, often non-billable time). Then you load your custom apps and connect it to (whatever) at the customer's site.

Depending on how you value your labor, the Mini ends up being the same or lower cost than the custom-built PC by the time you're done. A more profitable way to use your time and your customers' money than troubleshooting, debugging, or fixing stuff that breaks.

Think of it as a compact, inexpensive BSD machine, with a clean user-interface, that can be stacked, racked, or wall-mounted if need be. A standard little box you can get off-the-shelf from a local supplier, load your custom apps, install quickly, and never have to worry about. Less hassles, more time to develop new apps and bring in new business.

I think the Mini is going to become a regular part of the geek toolkit immediately, and we're going to see these things popping up in plenty of (previously) unexpected places.

Beowulf cluster !!

[distributed]

Now imagine what a beowulf cluster of mac-mini's could accomplish.

yea i know... someone always brings this up.
vik

Re:Beowulf cluster !!

[guuyuk]

Yes, a Beowulf cluster, without taking up a Grendel worth of space...

Re:Beowulf cluster !!

[bhtooefr]

Ironic that someone brings this up, because Apple shows a picture of several of them stacked up next to an HPaq tower. The FIRST thing I thought was... damn small Beowulf...

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[killjoe]

I honestly don't know where people come up with these silly ideas. Look how well clones worked out for IBM's PC dominance or for OS/2.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[killjoe]

I was looking at building a mini-itx system myself just to run freebsd as a small silent server. I no longer see any point to that. This box costs about the same but way more horsepower. Yowsa!

No it is called the iBrator

[RodeoBoy]

iBrator

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[Mieckowski]

Gentoo and Mandrake have PPC ports (but Mandrake's might be out of date).

Will Apple's other desktop sales suffer?

[Che Guevarra]

Hmmmm, now I'm thinking. Isn't the mini going to hurt their upgrade sales margin? Why would any non-professional who already owns a monitor and keyboard ever buy another new desktop model? I wonder if they'll come out with new versions of the mini that only interface with newer monitors... Seems odd, but I'm sure SJ has a strategy. Looks like they're going for consumer volume over their traditional showcase niche product strategy. (1500 other posts already on this story, why am I writing this?)

Bubble intact

[SuperKendall]

For one thing, I would say most people going to the lengths of creating a capture box like this are going to have a larger more modern set where DVI is OK - or be using a monitor and be OK (or more than OK) with VGA. And as you mention there is an S-Video dongle that adapts everyone else (not sure why a dongle is that bad, essentially a small adaptor at the end of the cable). The main problem I could see is I'm not sure all the sets with DVI are that great at displaying computer output, but perhaps the Mac can adapt somehow in that regard to supply better output.

The other part is the capture. Sure you can't expand the box internally with a capture card, but it's wide open for external firewire devices. One idea is to start making use of the firewire ports on the cable boxes (required by law to work, you may have to ask to get a functional box though) to capture video that way. It seems the best way since you get the raw feed, although the downside is I don't think you can share that with other people easily (encrypted feed only playable by the box that generated it? I seem to remember something like that).

Another possibility is the EyeTV commercial device, a fair compromise that costs around what a capture card would cost ($199) and does about as good a job.

Sure it takes away a little of the coolness to start adding extra devices but considering how small the Mini Mac is, at least there will be room.

So now what OS X needs is a port of MythTV that focuses on other capture means but adds the rest of the features.

Re:Bubble intact

[nofx_3]

And as you mention there is an S-Video dongle that adapts everyone else (not sure why a dongle is that bad, essentially a small adaptor at the end of the cable).

I wasn't saying that a dongle is bad per-se, I only mention the fact that it doesn't appear to be included for the $500 so that is an additional cost if you want a decent situation for TV out from the box.

I also forgot to mention in my post that neither 40GB or the 80GB in the upgraded model are really sufficient for a HTPC or MythTV box and there is no word yet on upgradeability but that would of course be another cost to add in. I wasn't aware of the quantity of usb2 and firewire capture devices avialable until I looked after my original post but most I saw didn't seem to have mature or any drivers for the Mac although there are certainly a few possibilites out there. I guess the point is really that altough you *could* make this box into a MythTV type box, its really not all that practical and would probably be a better idea in most cases to simply build a system on your own. Once again I think this is a nice product and should sell well but I'm not quite sure its suited for and HTPC system, there seem to be much better options out there.

-kaplanfx

no audio in

[iroll]

Sure it does, it has three Audio in ports and they're daisy chain-able... 2 USB2, 1 Firewire. You can go to Fry's and get an audio block for $35 and up.

That means your parents were using a crappy KB

[melted]

If you were nice to them you'd give them a Microsoft Natural or something along those lines. Personally I've been using Natural KBs exclusively for the last 5 years or so. They don't come with USB connectors.

Re:That means your parents were using a crappy KB

[Wordplay]

Except for mine, which did.

http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboa rd /productdetails.aspx?pid=022

Mine (the Natural Pro) even includes a USB hub, for god's sake.

Re:That means your parents were using a crappy KB

[melted]

AFAIK that USB connector only feeds the USB hub. You can't connect the keyboard using this connector alone.

Re:That means your parents were using a crappy KB

[Wordplay]

You can, and I have. You can use either one or both connectors as you wish.

Admittedly not

[SuperKendall]

That is kind of cool, though the device as a whole is a lot larger than the Shuffle.

Carrying the shuffle around really is more like just carrying a memory stick with extra features.

Probably though I'll be buying the Sanddisk CF card that has a built in USB connector, as I could use photo memory cards more than another music player...

Re:Mac Mini network intrusion detection

[gg510]

Yep, see also my thread on using these as standardized adjunct devices for custom industrial process control applications. I see these Minis proliferating into all kinds of use-cases that previously called for custom scratchbuilt PCs. Steve's just given the world a great little geektool there.

Re:HAHA! Fine print of the year!

[ocelotbob]

All of the new products have similar silly disclaimers. The mini mac has a disclaimer stating that hands are not included. This silliness should only be discouraged. Let the stuffy ones grow cunts and fuck themselves.

IBM's stackable cube server??

[iroll]

I hadn't thought of it until somebody started talking about stacking up Mini's into a cluster, but that's precisely what IBM is talking about doing (albeit a different processor, and with correct interconnects etc)... thoughts?

Problem for PC iPod owners switching

[Faithman2k]

When you change your iPod from PC to Mac it will delete all of the songs you've put on it.

I've had iPodRip recommended to me as a good solution. You can find it on the link below

http://www.thelittleappfactory.com/application.php ?app=iPodRip

Re:Problem for PC iPod owners switching

[eadint]

Just copy your itunes directory to the mac its painless and easy.

Wow!

[propus]

I just checked out the ipod Shuffle. It's super cool! I can't wait to get my hands on it :-)

Multiple tuners?

[yet another coward]

Is it possible to use multiple tuners with eyetv? MythTV's ability to use multiple tuners is excellent for not having to choose which show to record.

In an better world, Apple would release a real PVR product, possibly using MythTV.

Re:Multiple tuners?

[yet another coward]

I got some more information, so I'm following up my own post.

El Gato's software will allow multiple EyeTV or compatible products to be connected simultanously. Live viewing should work, but scheduled recording will not work reliably because the scheduling program will just use the first available unit. There are plans to implement scheduled recording using multiple units, and the latest software allows experimental use.

Johnathan Schwartz is COO of Sun

[soullessbastard]

Definitely I'm aware. There's a reason why some slack COO (or whatever title he has now) of Sun wouldn't open source the source code for the old Lighthouse suite of apps (Create and friends, I understand why FrameMaker couldn't be licensed even though I wish it was). And Schwartz is even COO or whatever other title of the week he has. Sun should own the Lighthouse source code from their buyout in the previous age of this world, but that code has just magically disappeared despite a number of folks asking if they could open source that instead of the non-native OOo code.

[tinfoilhat]Sun may very well be the new cloakroom wheeling-and-dealing Satan of our time![/tinfoilhat]

ed

Apple-Q: an explanation of PC input devices on Mac

[hackshack]

PC keyboards' "logo key" (usually Windows key) remains a logo key on the Mac, except it's marked with an Apple logo on Apple keyboards - wotta surprise! ALT becomes Option, and CTRL remains CTRL.

On a Mac, the second mouse button displays a contextual menu, just like in Windows. Scroll wheels behave the same.

The Ctrl and Logo keys play different roles under Mac and Windows. On Windows, the Ctrl key is the main modifier: Ctrl-C to copy, Ctrl-S to save, and so on. You need Control if you want to use menu commands in Windows. On the Mac, however, the Logo key is the primary modifier: Logo-C, Logo-S, etc. while the Shift, Ctrl and Option (Alt) keys serve as modifiers. Apple puts an Apple key on either side of the spacebar, a good ergonomic decision, becuase contrary to s_mencer's post, most users will use the Logo key extensively - Logo-Tab to switch apps, Logo-Q, etc.

The Mac tends to use modifier keys more fully than Windows, no doubt due to the single mouse button. Need a (tm) logo in your text? Alt-2. The mnemonics are also better overall - Close Window is Logo-W instead of Alt-F4, and the Process Manager is Logo-Alt-Esc instead of Ctrl-Alt-Del so you can execute it with one hand.

Only a right-click...

[Anonymous Coward]

...can create a folder on the desktop.

Re:Only a right-click...

[DanCo]

...or [shift]+[apple]+[N] ...

Re:Only a right-click...

[GORDYmac]

...or [New Folder] from the [Action Menu]...

Re:Only a right-click...

[slapout]

If you're refering to Windows:

In Windows Explorer highlight the Desktop. Select File/New Shortcut.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[JunkDNA]

I'm getting one too. I have never had a desire to own a Mac until about a year ago when I really got a good look at OS 10. I came super close to purchasing a G5, but backed off because it seemed an awful lot of money to plunk down for a machine to "test drive" the Mac. Now, good ol' Steve has taken away my last excuse. Nice to see someone in the computer industry with both creativity and the balls to back it up. God listen to me, I sound like a Mac fanboy already and I don't even own the damn thing.

Next Apple Case Mod

[hunterx11]

Dual processors? Dual core processors? How quaint. I'm thinking, dual computers. Surely you could find a way to fit a Mac mini inside a PowerMac G5 and use it as an ancillary computer with some form of remote desktop.

Re:Next Apple Case Mod

[Che Guevarra]

Put it inside? Why not just set it on top?

So thus they're not compatible...MOD PARENT DOWN

[soullessbastard]

So by this post we have bona fide proof the export filters of Pages are not perfect and, thus, has confirmed the original intent of the thread, that compatibility with Word documents and other formats is troublesome. Amazing...offtopic topic rebuttals are rebutted by their own poster. Astounding.

ed <-- does this mean this whole thread is leaked by System.gc()?

Thanks for the memory -- NOT

[quarkscat]

One problem I see with the Mac-mini is the
amount of video ram -- 32 MB. From some of
the early info regarding OSX 10.4 (code named
"Tiger"), the minimum spec for video memory
is 64 MB.

Besides main memory upgrades, and scrounging
a keyboard and mouse, a video board upgrade
may be on the list of "Things to Do".

Other than that, damn I want one ...

Re:Thanks for the memory -- NOT

[Anonymous Coward]

64 MB is required for Quartz Extreme, not Tiger. That's true today with QE and Panther as well.

And other that the most uber-wizz-bang eye candy, most of the QE functionality will be available with 32 MB.

Re:Thanks for the memory -- NOT

[Halo1]

Again incorrect. 16MB is even enough for Quartz Extreme. Tiger does need a 64MB card for CoreImage acceleration though.

Re:Thanks for the memory -- NOT

[Slack3r78]

Unless Apple has revised the requrements for CoreImage since the last time I looked, this thing will run 10.4, but not the CoreImage APIs, as the minimum requirement for that is the FX5200 Ultra. This was one of the reasons I ended up not buying an iBook a few months ago (and I wasn't going to pay $600 more for the 12" PB just to get CI).

I'm honestly shocked that Apple would bring out an all-new system just months before Tiger that lacks CoreImage support.

Re:Thanks for the memory -- NOT

[Leo McGarry]

Not quite correct. CoreImage is scalable. It'll run on anything at all, as long as Tiger runs. If graphics hardware is available, CoreImage will use the GPU. If it's not, it'll run in the CPU.

And here's the really cool part. If you've got graphics hardware that can run the necessary programs, but your CPUs are actually faster, CoreImage will note this and pull the routines back into the CPU for maximum performance.

Everybody who ever says a sentence beginning with "CoreImage requires" and then a list of hardware is telling a little lie. Truth is, CoreImage has no hardware requirements at all. It just has a list of hardware of which it will take special advantage.

Re:iTunes AutoFill in 4.7.1 -- For iPodShuffle onl

[foo12]

You could always generate a smart playlist of n-MB of music which has not been played in the last n-days selected at random. Setting iTunes to synch that playlist would effectively duplicate what AutoFill is doing.

No floppy not problem, no removable media was

[AHumbleOpinion]

No. Those are Apple's second worst enemies. Apple's worst enemies are the people who predicted Apple's demise when they stopped shipping with floppies. Then predicted Apple's demise when they started using USB.

What a load of crap, revisionist history. The complaint was not that Apple dropped the floppy, the complaint was that the rev A iMac had no removable media. No zip. No CD-R. Nothing. Apple solved this deficiency and eventually added a CD-R. If I had to guess I would say they wanted a CD-R all along but had to go to plain CD to make their price point.

I've been using Apple's since 1981, Mac's since '83 (developer - Lisa actually). I'd comment on your other nonsense but I've fed the trolls enough tonight.

Re:No floppy not problem, no removable media was

[Feral Bueller]

What a load of crap, revisionist history. The complaint was not that Apple dropped the floppy, the complaint was that the rev A iMac had no removable media. No zip. No CD-R. Nothing. Apple solved this deficiency and eventually added a CD-R. If I had to guess I would say they wanted a CD-R all along but had to go to plain CD to make their price point.

I've been using Apple's since 1981, Mac's since '83 (developer - Lisa actually). I'd comment on your other nonsense but I've fed the trolls enough tonight.

I'm assuming you meant Apples not Apple's. ... and you're ill-adwised whipping out your resume(CV) around here. From the sounds of it, you're probably one of those assholes still trying to squeak along using cyberdog on your LC 475 buffed out to 64MB of RAM. I would also suggest looking up the word troll within the context of posting on the web: I wasn't trolling. Assuming I was trolling, you're the only idiot who bit: congratulations. I'll send you an ADB->USB adaptor so that you can use your dirty 800 year old keyboard on a Mac mini. It's obvious that you can't write. Please at least learn how to read. Now shut up and get back under my desk.

Re:No floppy not problem, no removable media was

[AHumbleOpinion]

The only thing under your desk is your right hand, assuming of course you are not a lefty.

Bill Palmer: Waaaaaaaah!

[Zhe Mappel]

Hell hath no fury like a whiney blogger scorned. ;-)

Just a couple days ago, Palmer wrote:

Alright, I've said all I'm going to say about the headless iMac nonsense (at least until after it doesn't get announced at the Keynote on Tuesday), as I think I've made my position abundantly clear, and I've grown a bit tired of making my point again and again.

Naturally, being so colossally wrong is tough on the average egomaniac. So today, his headline is,

Apple can take its idiot box and stick it where the sun don't shine

followed by something like 2,000 words of RSI-inducing keyboard mashing. I'd never heard of the guy before; heh, now I know why.

And so it begins: the Toppling of the Snobs as Apple tells its limousine class they now have to share company with average Joes. Oh, boo hoo. ;-)

Re:ANOTHER SHAMELESS MARKETING PLOY FROM APPLE

[juiceCake]

Unlike your Linux PC, my PowerMac's keyboard does include a shift key.

I've got news for you. His keyboard has a shift key too. He chose not to use it (and yes I realize you know this but your ahh, clever, response doesn't make much sense, or perhaps I'm just dense). And he could be using a Mac based Linux machine no?

Would definately make a decent server

[EvilStein]

Apple's server offerings have always been pretty good. I had some porno on my old G3/266 running 9.x and AppleShare IP 6.x get listed on www.thehun.net before. The box got the crap smacked out of it, but faithfully served up porno long after the traffic died off.

(fyi, getting listed on thehun.net is almost *worse* than a /. effect - perverts galore!)

Re:The one mouse button

[Anonymous Coward]

So tell me, when I click a link in Firefox, should it behave as a left-click and open the page in the current tab, middle-click and open the page in a new tab, or right-click and open a context menu so I can save the link, bookmark it, or copy it to the clipboard?

Don't know about Firefox, so I'll tell you Safari:

Click = open in new window
Cntrl+Click = Contextual Menu {open in new window, open in new tab, download file, copy link to clipboard, bookmark link}
Cmd+Click = open in new tab
Shift+Cmd+Click = open in new tab behind current tab
Cmd+Opt+Click = open in new window
Shift+Cmd+Opt+Click = open in new window behind current window

It is real easy to do even (Shift+Cmd+Opt) with only 2 fingers. Makes a 3-button mouse seem a little inadequate. So if you are into mousing, you'll need at least 5 to cover all the options provided. Me? I like to do all my stuff through the keyboard - but have yet to figure out how to click a www link without a mouse.

Sorry for being late to the wankfest....

[jotaeleemeese]

.... I was having a life.

Mac fanboys...

Ogg-putations.

[Amiasian]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't OGG a more computationally intensive codec, hence lowering the battery life. Maybe that's no longer the case.

So you're saying it should be called...

[Zhe Mappel]

...the tamPod? ;-)

Re:Mac Mini doesn't have an audio-in jack connecto

[grrrl]

a mic would have been great - even my dad is into skype, and trying to get him to switch with one more thing he cant use... well, that makes it harder :/

USB KVM = not necessarily

[The Wicked Priest]

I was thinking about how I'd hook this into my current setup, with a PS/2 keyboard and trackball. I think I'd use a PS/2 KVM, and use a PS/2-to-USB adapter only on the Mac side.

The art of making pointless points....

[jotaeleemeese]

-PDA.
-Digital camera.
-Card readers.
-Mobile phones.
-Bunny forbids, other music players different to the iPod (you know, not everybody is that gullible having some better music players out there).
-DAB radios.
-Network cards of all denominations.
-Speakers.
-Audio cards.
-Monitors.
-External storage devices (DVD, disk, tape, you name it).

And the list could go on and on.
2 USB ports is not good enough, but having to buy a USB hub is not such a drawback, after all this is an low level entry machine.

Alpha transparency by any other name . . .

[ubertoober]

PNG files, wherefore art thou?

With all this talk about compatibility, and "playing nice with others" . . . with all this hurrah about alpha transparency . . . I still haven't heard or read anything about how Pages or the other "new & improved" apps can play nice with PNG files.

Now that I've gone PNG, I don't wanna go back, baby.

Somebody give me the straight dope: does OS X and the Apple apps play nice with PNG files?

Look Deeper into the Mac MINI

[eadint]

I knew that they had to gimp the system somehow. and all of you fucking morons complaining about a 1 button mouse get over it anyone who says macs are poorly engineered because of this ( you are showing that you have no concept of computers, you are showing that you are an ignorant moron, and you should kill yourself before you accidentally procreate, we don't want any more idiots on this planet we have too many of them already)
i looked at the specs and i found what i was looking for, the mac mini has a 126MHZ bus, compare this to an ibook with a 133 MHz bus and you will quickly see that this thing will be slower that an ibook, or even an Emacs. don't get me wrong it will probably work great, apps wont be as snappy but mom and pop can do their stuff on it and be happy with it. i would assume that in 2006 the will bump the bus speed but this thing will probably always be slower than an ibook, but then again this is a gateway drug and not a number cruncher. ignore the Ghz rating anyone who is not an Intel zombie shill can tell you that GHZ means nothing its bus speed, and cache that really matter.

Re:Look Deeper into the Mac MINI

[Anonymous Coward]

It says 167 Mhz system bus.
Won't comment about your reading skills :)

Re:Look Deeper into the Mac MINI

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you, on crack? The bus speed is clearly listed on Apple's tech specs web page as 167MHz. This is faster than the iBook and identical to the PowerBook (it is also the maximum possible bus speed for any G4 processor in existence).

That is complete nonsense.

[jotaeleemeese]

You can buy memory from many manufacturers for PCs, install it yourslef and if it does not work they take it back and replace it, no questions asked.

In the early PC era, with the exception of Macs, you could open your own PC, replace components, and still expect that a guarantee on the machine would be honoured if something went horribly wrong.

Nowadays when comoditazation of everything is common place is ludicrous to insist in the user not opening a machine to upgrade something that traditionally is upgradable in all the industry.

If people whine about certain Apple's ideosincracies sometimes is for good reasons.

After 10+ years of not working with Apple's machines professionaly I would have expected that they would have wisened up on this particular aspect, but alas, they have not.

Re:That is complete nonsense.

[CaptDeuce]

After 10+ years of not working with Apple's machines professionaly I would have expected that they would have wisened up on this particular aspect, but alas, they have not.

Yes, Apple has wised up; happened quite a while ago. This has been mentioned at a few sites (here's one: http://www.macintouch.com/mwsf2005notebook.html) but merely installing RAM (or whatever) in your Mac doesn't void your warranty -- breaking your Mac in the process does. This has been Apple's policy for over ten years.

The vast majority of product warranties, regardless of product type, only protect against defects in design or manufacturing. Manufacturers routinely discourage consumer fixes by encouraging all servicing be done by qualified technichians. Apple is hardly special.

Re:That is complete nonsense.

[andreyw]

They wisened up in the other sense too... my UMAX dual 604e PowerMac uses buffered EDO/FPM 5-Volt DIMMs. Most computer hardware of that age used 3.3v DIMMs, with the exception of some intel server mobos and Sun (maybe HP/SGI too?) workstations. Now Apple uses standard DDR memory. I'd rather they stuck with SCSI drives like they did in the past, but IDE is significantly cheaper and more ubiquitous.

Tell us how you *really* feel, Apple..

[EvilStein]

"Designed With Exquisite Finesse
Most low-cost PC manufacturers slap together Frankenstein machines by hacking away features from the high end (of three years ago, anyway) and putting the warmed-over parts in ill-fitting cheap plastic boxes. They don't really have a choice, since they don't design any of the parts, from operating system to motherboard. That's why most budget PC cases seem to be littered with a mish-mash of uncoordinated stickers from every component vendor on the planet."

heh. I like that bit.

I like Gizmodo ;)

[dmdimon]

they do job for 98% of ./ Apple posters

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/AppleHater s. gif

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/iProduct.g if

It is only me....

[jotaeleemeese]

.... or are Apple's fanboys completely delussional?

You can google the answers yourself. You will be suprised!

And people thought Linux advocates were zealots. At least the penguinists are not paying for the privilege of been part of a cult.

It's doomed

[rsilvergun]

I feel bad about it. It looks awsome, does everything anyone would want in a computer, and it's dirt cheap. It's also really, really small. Anyone remember the TurboGrafx-16? Ever see its Japanese counterpart the PC-Engine? The American version was 2.5 times bigger for no other reason than that to an American Big == Good. Oh well, maybe it'll do better in Japan and Europe. I can't wait to get one. But heck then again I thought the PC-Engine was cooler than the TG-16, and I still remember being amazed how small Sega Genesis cartridges were...

keynote 2 is a *real* improvement

[wdebruij]

with more than 2100 posts already chances are noone is going to read this. Who cares, I'll just listen to myself then.

The presentation app, keynote, appears to be a godsend. It has a number of features that I always wanted (but was too lazy to code):

- a dual-monitor setup so that you can have a presentation on the beamer and an overview on your laptop. Do modern laptops carry dual-out, by the way?

- a timer to go with your overview page. The days that I have skipped content just to fit the deadline are nearly over. Finally.

however, there is one feature that I'm still missing. This one is especially useful for technical design, etc: construct individual slides from `master' images that are possibly larger than the slides. In a CAD environment it means flying into a detail of your design.

In general this technique should lead to a more natural progression from slide to slide. Perhaps it can be generalized even. I'm thinking along the lines of first creating a story and only afterwards chopping it up into bytesize chunks. The aforementioned design-issue is just an example. Read "presenting to win" by Weissman (yeah, horrible title) for more useful comments on holding presentations.

Re:keynote 2 is a *real* improvement

[Anonymous Coward]

Do modern laptops carry dual-out, by the way?

Apple PowerBooks do. (At least my 17" can. iBooks not.)

Other companies make ergonomic keyboards...

[jotaeleemeese]

.... which normally are USB.

THe beast lead on this one, but now the beast has been left behind.

Just about any of those drives work on the Mac

[SuperKendall]

Do you mean Linux running on the Mac when you talk about external drives and drivers? Actually any USB 2.0 or Firewire drive works just fine on the Mac out of the box, as do just about any USB storage devices on the planets (like thumb drives and so on).

I still think the size is really appealing for a HTPC system and I really like that I'll be able to host iTunes music from it throughout the house (you are right on the money that an external drive is desireable!) and that the DVD player will work really well - also there is a remote for it, though I would prefer to see some kind of bluetooth remote emerge. Basically for a person that has a few Macs already this box along with some good external storage make for a nice compact house server solution to feed media to other boxes throughout the house, as well as the TV (I'm using a projector so the VGA out is perfect).

So, at least one person is crazy enough to try using it for an HTPC... I'll bet there will be quite a few more in the near future. As much as some other PC's might be a little better suited to the task, I'll bet the Mini Mac draws scads of users making it become a really good HTPC solution.

How am I "Completely Delusional"

[SuperKendall]

Yes there are a few players that can mount directly, but not many - I am talking about not even needing a cable. As others have said it makes a lot of sense if you are thinking about picking up a USB drive anyway to possibly get music playing capabilities for not much more... And the form factor is pretty good for carrying about.

As to the software/hardware integration - are you really saying that a lot of people do not find that appealing? For a lot of people iTunes is a fine way to load an iPod and will work just as well to select what goes on this smaller device, so already it has a head start with very well integrated software that a lot of people know how to use already. I know because I still use an original 5GB iPod every day with a far larger collection on my computer, and have to manage swapping new stuff in and out every now and then. iTunes is a very good program to address this task. There are other programs that are also pretty good - but are any of the programs even close bundled with other devices that offer similar features to the Shuffle? Once again I am saying that Apple just takes useful features that exist in other products and combines them in appealing ways for a nice comprehensive package.

Is it really that Apple fans are so delusional, or perhaps that people that scoff at Apple are just a touch unwilling to admit something positive about Apple?

So you scoff, let us hear your predictions on the Shuffle sales - flop or not? I predict that it will be another big success. If you predict the same, what kind of argument do you really have?

Note that I am not utterly enthralled by every Apple product, as I still am not totally sure the iPod Photo will do very well in the end (at what it was intended for - I think a lot of people who buy it now just want the larger HD so sales for photo use alone are really masked).

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[Nonoche]

Man, if only they could have done something with HyperCard. That could have been the powerapp to end all powerapps. If they had developed it through the growth of the Internet and made it have a flash-like player, it would probably be the #1 tool for developing online apps.

Well what you're asking for already exists, it's called Macromedia Director and its internet plugin Shockwave. Its language is even a heir of HyperCard's language, HyperTalk. Too bad Macromedia insists on killing its greatest software ever though.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[Gumph]

£69 for the half Gig and £99 for the gig, pretty reasonable really! (all prices include VAT)

hehe this sounds like some /. posters

[Nonoche]

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/AppleHaters. gif

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[wild_berry]

It's on the web store, and is listed as £68 and £99 for the small and big models, respectively.

Re:The killer problem

[danigiri]

Just for the record, my Samsung TV has DVI-in, so non-issue for me.

omg

[duncangough]

You'll have to excuse me, I'm just off for a quick iShuffle ;-)

Hands sold separately

[10Ghz]

The Mini's design-page has a following disclaimer at the bottom:

Keyboard, iPod mini, dock, hands, AirPort, Bluetooth and PC sold separately.

uh, OK. Are the hands a BTO-option?

Re:Hands sold separately

[loyukfai]

Good catch... Maybe it's referring to the hands in this image? : )

But then, Apple isn't likely to actually sell any "hands" anyway, so it's probably another crack.

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[Anonymous Coward]

Believe me, she'll hardly get to use it. These things have a way of sucking you in.

What planet do you live on? I can't get my girlfriend off the Mac. She hardly ever uses her own PC, because the iBook is so much better for her writing, web-browsing, email, game-playing, and music needs.

Re:kvm switch

[soundonsound]

iogear makes some sexay ones, but they're not cheap cheap.

The newegg challenge?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, everyone agrees that the mini is a cool piece of hardware. It is not ultra-cheap (because you'll have to pay at least $200 extra for basic upgrades) but the price is quite low for apple-quality hardware.

I just configured a similar piece of hardware from newegg, it definitely beats the mini by a wide margin but is not as cool:

For $890 you get this (all components are average PC quality, not some el-cheapo manufacturers):
BIOSTAR iDEQ Barebone System for Socket 462 AMD CPU, Model IDEQ 210VB BLACK $169.00

Lite-On 16X DVD Dual Drive, Model SOHW-1633S Beige, Retail $63.00

SAMSUNG 160GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive, Model SP1614C, OEM Drive Only $98.05

Logitech Office Internet Pro Keyboard PS/2 103keys -OEM $13.00

Mushkin Dual Pack 184-Pin 1GB(512MBx2) DDR PC-3200 - Retail $136.25

Logitech MX310 Optical Mouse USB/ PS/2 -RETAIL $19.00

INTEL Pro 1000 MT GIGABIT Desktop PCI Network Adapter, Model $47.00

AMD Sempron 3000+ 2.0GHz, 512KB L2 Cache Socket A Processor - Retail $129.00

Leadtek nVIDIA GeForce 6600GT Video Card, 128MB GDDR3, 128-Bit,
DVI/TV-Out, AGP 8X, Model "A6600 GT TDH" -RETAIL $216.00

For $832 you get this Mac mini:

1.42GHz PowerPC G4
ATI Radeon 9200 with 32MB DDR video memory
80GB Ultra ATA hard drive
DVI or VGA video output
* 512MB DDR333 SDRAM - 1 DIMM
80GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive
Wired Keyboard & Mouse Set
56K v.92 Modem
Mac OS X - U.S. English

Well, it is obvious that component for component, the PC is much faster:
3000+ Sempron vs 1.42GHz G4
160GB SATA vs 80GB ATA
1GB PC3200 Mushkin vs 512MB PC2700
NVidia 6600GT with 128MB vs Radeon 9200 with 32MB (huge difference!!)
Intel Pro Gigabit LAN vs 10/100 integrated

Would I buy the PC over the mini? Depends! For some purposes the mini can be much better (portable, cool, reliable, noiseless). If you need performance, once again PC is the way to go.

The apple people always find a way to produce extremely desirable hardware with a single flaw: you always need the expanded, bigger, upgraded version which costs 80% more. A $500 sentimental purchase (not my main desktop) is OK. A $800+ sentimental purchase is simply not something I can afford. I wouldn't pay that amount of money for coolness and style, even though I really want the mac mini.

You don't understand OSS

[jotaeleemeese]

This you should not be talking so much about it.

There are many people making a living exactly the way you are hinting it would not be possible.

The guy is agreeing with you....

[jotaeleemeese]

.... it is a matter of punctuation.

You will need a long power cable for that.

[jotaeleemeese]

n/t

Re:$499 Mac? Damn

[mr100percent]

Well, there's ElGato's EyeTV and Formac's StudioTVR, both Firewire. Myth isn't ready yet (so I hear)

Do not chew iPod shuffle.

[chihiro]

Official advice from Apple:

1. Music capacity is based on 4 minutes per song and 128Kbps AAC encoding.
**2. Do not chew iPod shuffle.**
3. Rechargeable batteries have a limited number of charge cycles and may eventually need to be replaced. Battery life and number of charge cycles vary by use and settings. See www.apple.com/uk/batteries for more information.
4. Some computers require either the optional iPod shuffle Dock or a USB cable extender (sold separately).

http://www.apple.com/uk/ipodshuffle/

I for one am very disappointed that chewing functionality has been omitted from the shuffle. I personally was waiting for the blueberry flavored version. Maybe next year....

Chihiro

you must be new here

[Gumph]

Plus, Steve Jobs is a prick...

no, no, no... it's pronounced Bill Gates

Reply from original poster

[Anonymous Coward]

In hindsight, I see (iSee?) how my original post appears suspicious. However, I am niether troll nor fanboy. Although I once knew a girl who claimed to be a leprachan (sp?). She looked like a troll to me though. Perhaps I went a little off the deep end with my post. If I did, I am still there and stand by my descision to go Mac.

Re:Mini: geektool & custom applications platfo

[arnwald]

Yes !

I think small business or small parts of large business might get impressed with those.

T.

So....

[Anonymous Coward]

When does the U2 Mac mini and iPod Shuffle come out?

Little funny on the ipod shuffle page

[Gillious]

2 Do not eat iPod Shuffle.

Shameless Plug

[jsares]

My new Mac mini blog:

http://macmini.blogspot.com/

Come check it out.

yeah..

[geordieboy]

I live in a hole smeared with shit and dung, in the dark, in a moist cold basement on the outskirts of Boise, Illinois.
This new Mac Mini is perfect for me!

No hats off to him

[danila]

He took a known fact (well, a rumour, but a pretty solid one) that Apple plans to release a 500$ Mac. He can't get a credit for this, because it's not his prediction. That's what ThinkSecret told us based on leaked secret info.

Then Cringlely added a lot of his own unfounded speculation, which doesn't make any sense at all (Apple doesn't sell hardware at a loss, not even to piss off Bill). Almost everything he "predicted" was stupid, but he would probably still try to take credit for this one in a year.

Intel Value Added Reseller

[meehawl]

kept SGI around long enough for them to reinvent themselves

SGI's new gig is deploying lots of Intel CPUs on some funky buses. If that excites you, well done.

HP loses money on PC's, so did IBM before they jetisoned that unit. Basically Dell is the only one making any money on PC hardware

All these companies you mention are many times Apple's size and have over the past 20 years produced shareholder returns many dozens or hundreds of times that of Apple's.

Being Charitable - Apple's Recent Share At 1.8%

[meehawl]

browser ID stats don't reflect market share

Dude, he's parrotting me. *I* was being charitable, seeing that this is an online site with an overrepresentation of Macs. What are the real stats like?

Apple Computer's worldwide market share fell to 1.8% in the third quarter of this year from 2.1%, and dropped to 3.2% from 3.6% in the U.S., according to figures from research company Gartner. The numbers also showed dramatic declines in the quarter-to-quarter growth rate of Macs sold while Apple's Windows-based competitors saw double digit increases in the U.S and an almost 10% rise worldwide ... Compared to other PC vendors, Apple had a 5.0% decline in unit growth worldwide from the previous quarter. While Apple declined, its competitors gained 9.8% in unit growth from Q2. Year-to-year figures showed Apple with a 5.7% jump, as other vendors rose 9.8%. No other PC vendor in the top ten posted a decline in year-to-year unit growth worldwide but Apple. The leader in worldwide market share was Dell in first place with a 16.8% share, followed by HP with 15.0% and IBM at 5.6%.

Amiga Forever!

[meehawl]

These people are not going away

Yeah, well the Amiga never really went away either. But is it "doing fine"?

As for the "wobbles" in sales, what do they look like?

Apple Computer's worldwide market share fell to 1.8% in the third quarter of this year from 2.1%, and dropped to 3.2% from 3.6% in the U.S., according to figures from research company Gartner. The numbers also showed dramatic declines in the quarter-to-quarter growth rate of Macs sold while Apple's Windows-based competitors saw double digit increases in the U.S and an almost 10% rise worldwide ... Compared to other PC vendors, Apple had a 5.0% decline in unit growth worldwide from the previous quarter. While Apple declined, its competitors gained 9.8% in unit growth from Q2. Year-to-year figures showed Apple with a 5.7% jump, as other vendors rose 9.8%. No other PC vendor in the top ten posted a decline in year-to-year unit growth worldwide but Apple. The leader in worldwide market share was Dell in first place with a 16.8% share, followed by HP with 15.0% and IBM at 5.6%.

If you always tend to wobble downwards, while your competitors tend to wobble upwards, then even during a prolonged steady-state of wobbling around equilibrium it's easy to see the final conclusion.

Other cute comments on the Mac Mini

[guuyuk]

On the bottom of the design page:
Keyboard, iPod mini, dock, hands, AirPort, Bluetooth and PC sold separately.

On the Graphics page:
Display, The Incredibles game, Finding Nemo DVD and HDTV sold separately.

On the Software page:
Digital life software included. HDTV sold separately.

Shuttle with WiFi and Bluetooth?

[amichalo]

I am not familiar with the Shuttle product, but does it include 100Mb WiFi (Airport Extreme) and Bluetooth? If not, I did not see you note either an add-on or those (significant) limitations in your comparison.

Also, Apple is offering free shipping. Since you are positioning your comparison as being acurate to down to two significant digits ($27.14), you need to factor in something that could cost as much as twice your marginal difference.

Bottom line - if you are going to do a comparo, consider all the angles. I don't care how much a fanboy you may or may not be, it doesn't help anyone to get incorrect/incomplete information.

Re:Shuttle with WiFi and Bluetooth?

[cwg_at_opc]

while composing my post i lost a linksys wireless adapter, sorry, cut and paste from neweggs web-store needs reformatting - the linksys is a 802.11a/b/g PCI add-in:

LINKSYS 54Mbps Dual-Band Wireless A+G PCI Ethernet Adapter, Model WMP55AG
- Specifications -
Standard: IEEE 802.11a, 802.11b, draft 802.11g
Wireless Data Rates: up to 11/56Mbps
Security: up to 152-Bit WEP
Interface: PCI
Frequency Band: 2.4G/5G
Modulation: CCK, DQPSK, DBPSK, OFDM
Transmitted Power: 11dBm to 17dBm
Temperature: 0C - 55C
Humidity: 10% - 85%, Non-Condensing
Weight: 100g
Dimensions(mm): 147 x 20 x 120
System Requirements: 200Mhz or Faster Processor, 64MB+ RAM, Available PCI Slot, CD-ROM Drive, Microsoft Windows 98SE/Millennium/2000/XP
Model#: WMP55AG
Item#: N82E16833124116

so now you can add $83.99 to your shuttle.

- unfortunately, the logitech keyboard isn't bluetooth, tho' i'm sure a BT adapter could be found(for as little as $15.99, like this one: N82E16833327108), allowing you to buy the apple BT keyboard and mouse.

for the rest of you who want to bash me, go ahead, bash away, then go build your own comparison and post it. (i will never claim to be entirely objective, nor error-free :-) can't please everyone...

and yes, you can go for the cheaper Office version.
anyone care to add it all up again?

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[daBass]

90% of the mark-up is actualy British VAT and the rest is probably higher import duties. Don't forget as well that most americans will buy them in store and get sales tax slapped on top of the $499 as well.

The difference isn't that staggering and it certainly isn't Apple's fault. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if they make more on these per unit in the US than they do in the UK!

Mini Mac is $150 too much.

[Shivetya]

Price it at 349 and many more would bite.

As it stands it still is outside the range most people will just toss out for a second computer or "an experiment"

Nice attempt but the price is still wrong.

mini to go way of the cube b/c ram upgrade prices.

[ayeco]

BTW, it costs $450 to upgrade the mac mini from 256mb ram to 1gb. That's the price of the plain mini. A superdrive upgrade is only $100. Bluetooth and wifi $150

SO, by the time you upgrade the ram, superdrive and wifi/bluetooth, you'll be spending over $1200 for a system with no monitor and a slower processor.

I just don't think this will fly.

iWorks vs AppleWorks?

[leandrod]

It fazes me... why not write AppleWorks documents, do Apple expect everyone to migrate at once? Perhaps they plan to start doing that later, maybe when they get also a spreadsheet and a DB frontend?

As it is really less than AppleWorks, MS shouldn't care... but I guess Apple is only too happy that OOo exists to take care of MS Office users should need arise.

Fair enough...

[SPYvSPY]

...but it's not an "unabashed ripoff" when 99% of your audience knows exactly where it came from. I'd prefer to call it a "remix". ;)

Re:Fair enough...

[Sri Lumpa]

An Homage.

The problem is no alternative 2button from Apple

[AHumbleOpinion]

You misunderstand the problem. The problem is not that a one button mouse exists. The problem is that there is no multibutton w/ scrollwheel mouse available from **Apple**. For a computer that is sold partly on its look and style, ie fashion, not having an alternative mouse is counterproductive. The one button should be the default but a multibutton/wheel mouse should be available as a build-to-order option for when you are buying a system for yourself rather than grandma.

Re:The problem is no alternative 2button from Appl

[Moofie]

Alternative.

http://www.dvforge.com/themouse.shtml

Bang. Looks factory. Works great. My Bluetooth one rocks.

You can add any of a dozen multi-button mice as accessories from the Apple store. They'll come with your new computer. All they do is not take the one-button mouse out of the box. This is not, repeat: Not a problem.

Come on: When you want to customize your car, do you whine because the body kit you wan't isn't factory?

Where is the hold button ?

[Tsiangkun]

Is it me, or is there no way to lock the controlls on the iPod shuffle ?

Re:Where is the hold button ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, you can lock the controls.

Re:ANOTHER SHAMELESS blah blah troll

[MrMuskOx]

apple was essentially dead around 1998, then what steve jobs did was essentially what volkswagon did for their new beetle. Suddenly you can get different colors for your computer! Apple has continued to simply market for style rather than substance. Fine. It looks pretty on your coffee table, but how does it benchmark? so basically id pay between 500-800 dollars more just because? I can customize a pc, put in the cards that I want to, upgrade when needed all for cheaper.

Re:ANOTHER SHAMELESS blah blah troll

[MrMuskOx]

and another thing: apple users have been sucked into the cult of apple in that they will buy apple products above any other products just because 'its hip and cool' even if there are other products that are better and cheaper. Basically people are buying into the image that steve jobs has cultivated. Sort of like Starbucks.

Re:ANOTHER SHAMELESS MARKETING PLOY FROM APPLE

[MrMuskOx]

clockspeed matters when you're trying to run 3 programs at once and they're all slow as molasses...

mini vs. mini-itx - Re:mini vs. shuttle

[cwg_at_opc]

as mentioned in the forums at sudhian and spcr.com, the mini should really be compared to some of the epia mini-itx systems. i'm off to research those and will post later...

Re:mini vs. mini-itx - Re:mini vs. shuttle

[cwg_at_opc]

here's a few sites so far:

http://mini-itx.com/
http://damnsmallinux.org/store/
http://idotpc.com/
http://logicsupply.com/

so far, none of these sites(except maybe mini-itx.com) have a way to configure a complete system; mostly they don't stock all the necessary components.

oh, i forgot, "spcr.com" is actually http://silentpcreview.com/

Dupes.

[slapout]

Wow, this topic has 2300 comments. I wonder how many the dupe story posted next week will get. :-)

...they do?

[FredFnord]

I have a scroll-wheel mouse attached to my Mac. No drivers. In safari:

Left button does what you expect.
Right button opens contextual menus.
Scroll wheel scrolls.
Scroll wheel click opens a link in a new tab.

So... what more did you want it to do?

-fred

Re:...they do?

[Kplusplus]

I'm not talking about Safari, I'm talking about the same browser as the parent, FireFox. It doesn't support middle click at all on the mac.

A new Apple ad!

[FredFnord]

I prefer Keynote to pulling my own head off!

That's just about as good as 'It's like Microsoft Office for the rest of your life.'

-fred

Ah, the Gartner stats

[FredFnord]

Which don't include Apple Store sales. They didn't include online Apple Store sales either, last I checked, but they might have fixed this since then. I doubt it, but maybe.

Gartner's market share polls are paid for primarily by Microsoft. Now, I'm not saying that they're lying, exactly. But they sure do know exactly what their customer wants to hear, and, much like the intelligence agencies and GWB, are quite willing to be very selective about what they say...

-fred

Re:The one mouse button

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. Two button mouse you say? I'd rather save my favorite finger for emergency use on roadways.

So Much for PortalPlayer eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

None of there technology in this ipod....

You Mac fanboys ....

[jotaeleemeese]

...... never stop to amaze me.

Many low factor machines (and normal ones to) have USB ports in the front of the case.

The decision to put the USB port in the back is dumb, period.

Oh yeah, I will buy a glorified USB extension cable for 29 when I can go and get a cable peanuts in any computer store. Apple knows its audience: a complete bucnh of techonolical ignoramus who will buy any "approved" shinny Apple accesories before reasoning if it is reasonable to do so.

Are the smaller projectors to big for you *NM*

[Little Brother]

Are the smaller projectors to big for you *NM*

purpose

[davey22]

What surprised me about this was that despite the quite distinctive build they're not pushing it for a specific purpose. With an 85W power supply it seems to optimised to run 24/7 maybe as a PVR or server but Mac don't seem to be suggesting a particular role, compared to something like the iPod.

Well it was nice hanging with you guys...

[Provocateur]

...I guess I'll see you again when it's time to bash the new Apple monopoly...

mini mac?

[airdrummer]

hell, i've had my mini mac for over a quarter of a century...damn fine chainsaw, still starts on the 5th pull, even if the anti-kickback chainbrake got burned out after i lent it 2 a friend who couldn't figger out why it warn't cuttin' so good fer th' 1st 10 mins with the chainbrake on, then oliversuddin it cut jus' fine...don't need no stinkin' gummint osha chainbrake anyhow;-)

Reply to make the Hall of Fame!

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh, good one. I'm just replying so that the reply count increases and this can make the hall of fame. Please reply too!

wow

[adpowers]

Interesting. This story has almost enough posts to put it on the Hall of Fame (albeit, the 10th spot). Even the Mac mini duplicate story has over 1000 replies!

Linux on Mac Mini.....

[GryphonTech]

Actually, you can run linux on it right now. You can get any number of Linux Distros that work on the PPC chip and last I looked, the Mini is nothing more than a repackaged iMac.

When I got my G5, I went to www.gentoo.org and snagged a PPC distro and bo0otstrapped my iMac just for fun. It now runs like a champ and I can even dual boot between OSX and Gentoo Linux.

With the cost of the Mac Mini, I am seriously looking into using several of them as a personal renderfarm and to add power to Logic via distributed computing.

The question is, for $2.5k, is 5 Mac Minis as a renderfarm faster than one basic Xserv. I'm not talking about the individual computer comparisons but more you have 5 G4 1.2 GHz processors vs. 1 2 GHz G5.

Linux on Mac Mini.....

[GryphonTech]

Actually, you can run linux on it right now. You can get any number of Linux Distros that work on the PPC chip and last I looked, the Mini is nothing more than a repackaged iMac.

When I got my G5, I went to www.gentoo.org and snagged a PPC distro and bo0otstrapped my iMac just for fun. It now runs like a champ and I can even dual boot between OSX and Gentoo Linux.

With the cost of the Mac Mini, I am seriously looking into using several of them as a personal renderfarm and to add power to Logic via distributed computing.

The question is, for $2.5k, is 5 Mac Minis as a renderfarm faster than one basic Xserv. I'm not talking about the individual computer comparisons but more you have 5 G4 1.2 GHz processors vs. 1 2 GHz G5

Re:Never owned a Mac in my life but I'm getting on

[GryphonTech]

With the US to Pound/eruro exchange rate like it is, I would think if you can order here in the states and get it shipped back to the UK, it might be less expensive.

Re:Mac Mini network intrusion detection

[sellers]

I think some will still balk at the price for value. It will for sure get into the Windows iPod user's home - but they could have saved $$ by using a LC sized case and a full sized 72krpm drive.

http://www.transintl.com/store/images/applcomp/l c. gif

Cheaper Flash MP3 Players

[dmarx]

Even excluding the cheapie Chinese MP3 players, you can get a 512 MP3 player, with voice recording and an FM tuner, for $91.99. So what's the big deal about the iPod Shuffle?

I'll ditch my PC...

[mikelang]

...laptop is enough for work, PS2 for games, and Mac Mini is convenient for hardcore unix-fan (and admin) type as I am.

Re: mouse button

[catwh0re]

The main differences you find between very "mac" software and "windows" software is that, the mac software usually has one place to do one function, while windows software tends to have many, often more than 5 places to do the same function. What this does is confuse the user, as they never learn just one way to do something, rather than it being about just picking the most convenient. E.g instead of just an item being found in the menu consistently across all applications, in a windows application such as explorer, you can right click, use the menu, use the side bar, the keyboard combination, a button on a menu bar etc.

In the end a window may only be displaying 5 unique operations, however there are some 30 individual items on the screen. In that sense it's confusing. It's not a zealot behaviour that people assume of macintosh users (sure they exist, windows ones exist too, linux ones, et al)

Much of the debate of the mouse button that spawns is usually based on what it would be like for a windows user to use a sole mouse button. The mac software well demonstrates that productivity doesn't decrease with one less mouse button, it's an evolutionary thing, if only one button existed, then they wouldn't design for one mouse button, and had to place alot of thought into how things were to be laid out on the screen, instead of just tucking things away in the parallel (and dynamic, i.e confusing) menu system that the contextual menu provides

Mods: The truth about bonch/rd_syringe/OverlyCrGuy

[Anonymous Coward]

Moderators: Please note that "bonch" is a known fanatical psycophant whose obnoxious offtopic rants are legend here on Slashdot. It doesn't matter what the topic is, he'll find a way to scrape in some pointless Microsoft shilling. While nobody expects us to love Microsoft in any way, his particularly tepid style of calling anyone he replies to "troll" or "liar" because he happens to disagree with whatever they're saying is well documented and should not be rewarded. If anything, bonch is the type of person that should not be part of the open source/free software community. He is an anathema to all that is good about free software.

I'm posting this so that you (the moderator) have some context to consider bonch and not mod him up whenever he posts his filler preformatted rants about installing Windows or whatever that unfortunately get him karma every single time and allow him to continue posting his trademark toxic crap (read on) day in and day out. You may consider this a troll - I consider it community service. And I ain't kidding.

If you're a /. subscriber, I invite you to look through some of his posting history. I guarantee that you'll be hard pressed to find someone that is more "out there" than bonch. You'll also probably notice he's got quite an AC following. Don't just read his posts, make sure you go through the replies.

For example, in this recent post bonch not only calls the OP a troll but attempts to "tell it like it is" while making some vague argument about "MS". Yes, if you're confused, you're not alone. The reply (modded +0) proceeds to simply destroy his bogus argument. You will notice he did not reply. This is what some people call "drive-by advocacy". A sort of I'll just leave you with my thoughts here and move on to the next flamebait kind of deal. In fact, he almost never replies because he knows that his fanatical arguments simply do not hold up to any sort of discussion. It's not that he's chosen the wrong cause - he's just going at it in a completely wrong way.

More? Just read though this post and the subsequent replies. I guess this stands on its own.

More? Bad spelling in astounding conspiracy theories, more offtopic FUD and uninformed "I'm right, look at me" rants, promptly proven wrong. Worse even, bonch wants to be Bill Gates, apparently (that first one is a winner). I mean, really. You think?

FUD, FUD, FUD, FUD, offtopic FUD, and more FUD. This guy is like the Monty Python SPAM skit, but with FUD and more FUD instead of canned meat. Amazed yet? Don't forget that KDE and Gnome make you dumb, and it's all a Slashdot conspiracy. How low do you want to go? Maybe as low as this?

The infamous Slashdot Front Page Troll? Nuclear fireballs? It goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on (troll?). Like the energizer bunny. Or take these two, which stretch the definition of weird.

It's up to you. We can get rid of this guy and make Slashdot a better place. I don't know about you, but I'd rather take the trolls and crapflooders over people like "bonch" any day. And I sure as hell don't want to be categorized along with him. This is not how you advocate free software, period.